Discussion Topic |
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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What the phuk is wrong with us?
there will be a special place in Hell for that shooter
I agree with Locker, he was already there.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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WTF is wrong with people how can you be so broken?
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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i'm in tel aviv israel where i get a pre-recorded version of cnn. i don't speak hebrew, so that's about all i watch. well, cnn has cut in with live coverage of this event. i wish i was still watching Piers Morgan over and over and over again.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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Wow, that's just so wrong. Wishing the best to the love ones and survivors. The Japanese media, when some tragedy is created by someone, will NOT post a picture of the criminal, but will put photos of the victims up. They say that putting up the criminals picture can (and does) cause marginally normal people to relate to the perpetrator and act out similar scenarios. It only takes a single person out of a million or 2 to make a big sh#t storm.
It is the opposite of what our media does. Since I can't control our media but just myself, when they start going on about the bitch who drove her car into a crowd etc etc, I turn it off or change the channel. The reason they drone on like that is purely for ratings, and if enough people changed their behavior it would change the medias response to these kinds of things.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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Good God! Why does this keep happening. We shouldn't give it so much attention.
My heart goes out to the families . . .
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
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Sad. Unfortunately, the body count will need to be much higher to waken the American people up to the stranglehold the NRA has put them in.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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Holy sh#t, this is tragic. 18 kids?
What kind of f*#king monster would even think of that?
What the eff are we coming to? The frequency of these events seems to be rising exponentially.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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Sad. Unfortunately, the body count will need to be much higher to waken the American people up to the stranglehold the NRA has put them in.
The naked screaming 8,000 pound gorilla in the room.
GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.
Part true, part PURE bullsh#t.
I'd rather be "injured" with a knife personally.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Please don't start the guns are not the problem argument.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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That only took a couple of days. Maybe if the children had been armed the toll wouldn't have been as high. When? When are we going to learn - guns ARE in fact the problem. NRA brainwashing, the insane commercial proliferation of small arms, and near total lack of control of weapons is making these incidents a weekly societal occurrence.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Guns are the problem when combined with movies and tv and other media that glorifies stupid american sh!t.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Maybe if the children had been armed the toll wouldn't have been as high.
Exactly.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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so a question for the gun nuts. why are you guys always cowards?
Sad. Unfortunately, the body count will need to be much higher to waken the American people up to the stranglehold the NRA has put them in.
exactly
NRA brainwashing, the insane commercial proliferation of small arms, and near total lack of control of weapons is making these incidents a weekly societal occurrence.
yup
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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the whole world's glued to the cable TV
It looks so real on the big LCD
murder and violence are rated PG, too bad for the children
they are what they see
Joe Walsh, Analog Man
so a question for the gun nuts. why are you guys always cowards?
Is that gonna be helpful?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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18 children plus eight
children were 5-10 years old
if only they had had weapons those kids could have defended themselves
wait for it
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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I'm always shocked at the level of violence in PG movies... and the lack hot nude female bodies.
locker, part of the problem could be 311 million people today compared to 179 million in 1960. Oh, and the proliferation of guns, violence, and ignorance.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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I'm always shocked at the level of violence in PG movies... and the lack hot nude female bodies.
Phukkin' AAAA brother.
Don't you know that a psycho's right to easy access to multi-round weapons is sacred and female bodies are BAAAAD? Where ya been dude?
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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Is that gonna be helpful?
survival, you know what I am getting at
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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We had the same drugs, same mental illnesses, same weapons, etc...
Locker, we did not have the same access to PCP, Meth, etc back then
nor could anyone, anyone, be able to buy full military mega clip assault weapons when you and I were growing up
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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22 children injured in Chinese knife attack at elementary school.....
Injured is a lot different than dead.
Susan
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Norton writes:
"nor could anyone, anyone, be able to buy full military mega clip assault weapons when you and I were growing up"
Until '68, you could buy guns through THE MAIL, Norton. No questions asked.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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way more kids coming from broken families...
Locker, I do not think the evidence shows that. Crime is at historic lows, due in large part to the easy availability of abortion. See Freakonomics, great book.
Many of these mass murders come from good solid families. The Batman guy, obviously mentally ill was successful in his own right, family was very successful. The Oregon shooter was on his way to Maui, WTF? Sadly some sick individuals have found a way to check out and exact some revenge on society for some perceived slight. What drives society crazy is the fact that we can not pass some law to stop it.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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meChrist, I am stealing that. It is a very Good Point.
I myself won't need a gun, I want to kill that bastard with my bare hands. My God I feel so bad for the families involved. All I need to do is look at my son, think of someone hurting him and I start shaking.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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Now the count is up to 27 dead
at least 100 rounds heard fired
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
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Locker, in the 1950s?
well, that was when I was a kid
even in the 1960s, white kids smoking reefer was a big deal
but yeah, alcohol has always been available
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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22 children injured in Chinese knife attack at elementary school.....
How many mass knife attacks have there been in China in the last twenty years? In a country with a BILLION more people than we have.
Don't give me this bullshit that guns don't have anything to do with it.
Why aren't these guys doing their deeds with paper airplanes 'n' sh#t?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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Until '68, you could buy guns through THE MAIL, Norton. No questions asked.
really?
you could buy full military assault weapons 40 years ago
anyone? no background checks?
the military allowed that back then?
ok, if you say so
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Heard on the early morning news about a mass knife attack, with twenty or so victims by a deranged guy at an elementary school in China that happened yesterday.
Wonder if one event inspired the other.
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mitchy
Trad climber
new england
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Who gives sh#t what you could do 40 yrs. ago. 18 kids were killed TODAY.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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My theory? 24 hour news cycle, sensational coverage. The copycat theory is significant. These are people who might have just killed themselves, but now they get motivated to go out with a bang.
If there were more broken families crime would be up across the board. Like I said, crime is way down. These killers do not come from horrific family back grounds.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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It looks like our country turns out its own share of psychopath terrorists.
You mean worse than Benghazi? *gasp*
Better stay on top of this one Ron, lots of dead innocent Americans.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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Tragic, no easy answers. Mexico has a very restrictive gun law yet it's no secret how that is working out. Something has to be done I the family front and the mental health care front. I am in agreement with some of the previous posts concerning broken families and the effect it has on our society. I wish people would put as much effort into their family relationships as they do arguing over petty $hit on the interweb.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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A culture of violence.
We train and desensitize our children from a very young age.
Horrible horrible, disgusting.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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All I can say is there is a difference on how we allow bad behavior in this generation than others. Before if a kid hurts your daughter, it was perfectly alright for the father and brothers to make amends. Now... Nothing is really done. If a kid attacks another kid, it isn't a real crime since heck... They are kids. Kids get bullied and grow up into broken individuals and bullies grow up into some real evil folks since no one ever checked their behavior.
I can be wrong about this but.... From my life experience this is what I saw. I grew up with a socialpath. He is now living in jail for the rape and murder of a young girl. Before that he terrorized and did really horrible things in school and since he was nice looking with good grades... No one ever stopped him until he got bigger. In my mind, he needed some big consequences. The bigger the better.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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You mean worse than Benghazi? *gasp*
Better stay on top of this one Ron, lots of dead innocent Americans.
That was too good to not repost. And predictably Ron, you say there's no connection to guns.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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WLM get real, guns are a part of the problem....notice the 23 in China were injured, not killed. The availability of so many guns of all types does not cause the strange twists in the brains of sick people but it certainly facilitates their murderous intent.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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Ron, you couldn't buy military weapons during the great depression.
Crime is at historic lows... per capita.
God is very patient...
Some say patient, some say lazy, other say absurd. Either way, if it makes you feel better to involve your imaginary friend, so be it, as long as they don't tell you to start buying guns... but most "god fearing Uhmerikuhns" can't seem to live without a few.
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NRA Spokesman
climber
Fairfax, VA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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We have released a position summary in response to this incident.
I have provided it here, in entirety, for your convenience:
Although the incident in Connecticut is regrettable, in no way will will it change the NRA position on the rights of gun owners.
We will continue to care more about our toys than about your children.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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I'm so over the NRA controlling our country...F*#k them, their guns and their backwards way of thinking.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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(Locker... Fathers love their kids just as much. Just Mothers tend to self destruct immediately while Fathers take a little longer. Usually involving alcohol, etc.)
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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You're implying that Mothers love their children more than fathers
No Locker, I didn't take it that way at all. When children are lost we just revert to out gender role. I just saw a father speak about the sense of hopelessness he had knowing his son was at the school. It was heart breaking, luckily his son was safe. Healthy fathers and mothers both love their children to the end of the earth and then beyond. It might be helpful to check out someone's intent before inaccurate conclusions are jumped to. This is a time when we embrace ALL children...
Susan
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Longstick wrote: God is very patient...but when He decides the time has come...His justice and wrath will be unstoppable.
Well f*#k you, the NRA and YOUR god. F*#king retard.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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By the way... My cousin has a machine gun in his living room in Greece. We actually are not allowed to have any military installations close to Turkey as part of a treaty agreement. So... Our government issues weapons to the locals.
No one gets shot on the island. There have not been any mass shootings despite all the economic and political unrest in Greece. What does that say? It obviously points out that gun ownership is not equal to violence.
Something else is happening here and yes... It's extremely ugly.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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I'm so glad Ron doesn't have kids.
No one gets shot on the island.
From my limited time on islands, people seem to be pretty chill... maybe the sense of community that comes from being confined to a small chunk of land. But they drive like sh#t.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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Plus 1 Bobby D. Where was God during the Holocaust? Even bringing up the kind of crap is a gross injustice to the loved ones of the victims.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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"try to remember news coverage isn't healthy for us or our children"
Yea, lets all keep our head in the sand and our children ignorant of whats going on in the world.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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Okay, I promise not to talk like I know you... if you promise not to talk like you know about child psychology and how sensationalized news coverage is good for them.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Why is it we never hear about mass knifings? Or someone who stones a crowd of people?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
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Ken, mass knifing in China mentioned up thread. Note the children were INJURED, not killed like those involved in the gun attack in the US.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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Exactly Locker! The intent WAS there but knives aren't nearly as efficient as guns to actualize intent.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Exactly, Jim.
I enjoy shooting now and again (read infrequently), but I'd give up the hobby if doing so helps to prevent this sort of sick and disgusting terrorism.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Thank you for emphasizing the point. It can't be emphasized enough.
Rather, it will be interesting to see as time passes how many clues there were that this guy was nuts. Clues which went ignored.
Ignored because we blew $1.4 trillion on war while cutting nearly 10% of what we spend ($16 million) on mental health care. Ignored because people care more about their right to buy guns than their neighbor's right to proper medical treatment. Ignored because gun toting religitards are too busy fighting a woman's right to abort an unwanted child (a child that may very well develop mental health issues) than fighting for their ALREADY LIVING neighbor's right to proper mental health care.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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knives aren't nearly as efficient as guns to actualize intent.
Plus it's a lot more personal to go up and knife someone.
Latest report is one of his parents was found dead....ok ... Now it will be blame the parents.
Susan
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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Mental illness and easy access to guns is a tragic combination. Both problems need alot more attention. attention usualy equals money and money needs the political will. So call your politicans ask for funding and legislation in both areas. Is there a republican group that is against assault weapons; maybe they could get somewhere against the NRA lobby. I hear most cops are against easily available assault weapons why isn't their voice being heard?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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Some of us gun owners don't belong to the NRA and personally I can't stand the NRA and view them as radical c*#ks@ckers. Guns are the easy scapegoat, but something way bigger is going on. I have no solutions, but feel terrible for all those involved.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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"How did god decide which children should live and which should die today?
Are you kidding? God's power is so humongous and terrible and unknowable he just does this sh#t while he's making his toast in the morning.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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Is God an NRA member?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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This is obviously the fault of the NRA, this country's first civil rights organization.
It could not possibly be the result of a culture that so loves violence that if you show a tit in a movie it will be rated X, but if you hack it off then it is only rated R.
It couldn't be a result of a culture that substitutes video games and tv for sound parenting and loving attention.
Must have been the presence of the tool, a complex device that nobody could manufacture for themselves in their garage,..
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
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Must have been the presence of the tool, a complex device that nobody could manufacture for themselves in their garage,..
Well a nice big bomb can be made in your garage, but there aren't many of those going off in malls or schools yet.
Maybe it's easier to get the guns than to build a bomb in your garage?
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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Latest report is one of his parents was found dead
yeah, I heard that is was the shooters' mother. also heard that the shooter was twenty years old.
as an aside, I think camo outfits should be outlawed.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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Ron, STFU.
Isolated incidents of violence are far different than what we are discussing right now.
Why do you always have to be an ass?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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You'd think that after events like this the gun nuts would even agree it may be time to try something drastic. Can you really love your "tools" that much?
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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Sheltering a child from violence... I am calling B.S. on that since my parents "GREW UP IN A WAR ZONE." They saw kids shot, people starved, horrible acts such as folks steeling for survival from their elders and... Seeing the victims of that theft die as a result. They were not homicidal maniacs because they saw such horrible stuff. They were the nicest, most moral, generous people I ever knew. Explain That!!!!
Now how can you shelter or not shelter a child? I sure as heck am not going to keep tragic news away from Aris. I think that is stupid since he will see it, he will be exposed to it "somewhere/somehow." What I am going to do is talk to him about it. Ask him what he thinks, have a discussion. Might as well teach him some coping skills and a few moral lessons while at it.
Just because life is harsh does not excuse bad behavior.
The whole gun debate isn't good either. We are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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Violent video games.
24 hour media coverage.
Hands off parenting.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
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Locker were not talking about that tool, or are we?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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By isolated I mean individual rather than mass.
Big difference.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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I am reposting this because I really think this is the real issue.
The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???
People are getting sick and no one is noticing or... Helping... That needs to change BIG TIME. We are social animals. We need each other.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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Anastasia, not saying shelter them from the facts... shelter them from the 24 hour sensationalized bullshit coverage. Seeing someone die is one thing. I've held 2 people as they took their last breath... it is a very real, very visceral experience. Seeing the sensationalized account played over and over and over and over with conjecture and speculation and drama and blah blah blah blah is an entirely different thing. I imagine your parent's attitude reflects the deep experience they had more than the fact that they witnessed people dying. You can't have that experience from sensationalized TV coverage, it only desensitizes.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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Sheltering a child from violence... I am calling B.S. on that since my parents "GREW UP IN A WAR ZONE." They saw kids shot, people starved, horrible acts such as folks steeling for survival from their elders and... Seeing the victims of that theft die as a result. They were not homicidal maniacs because they saw such horrible stuff. They were the nicest, most moral, generous people I ever knew. Explain That!!!!
I think the difference is that they saw it FOR REAL. They had to witness what really happens to real people. There is a big difference between personal experience and impersonal. I'm not a zealot about video games but as my son was growing up I was rather stunned about the level of disgusting impersonal violence in games I thought were supposed to have minimal stuff in it. The ones with warnings must be horrific.
It's terribly complex with no easy answers....and lamenting about what once was is no answer.
Susan
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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Guns aren't evil.. they just make it easier.
news in and of itself isn't evil.. but how its played over and over with the intent to create fear/anxiety is evil. Exposure isn't a simple thing. It isn't simply that if one sees violence, then one will become violent and if one doesn't see or experience violence then one doesn't become violent. There is much more to it.
I believe that one of the bigger drivers in our country of these events is our glorification of violence. You see it in video games, in tv shows, in movies,, in books, in magazines, even in commercials. Everywhere you turn, there is glorification of violence. I believe that this is different then respect for ones ability to defend oneself. Respect is different then glorification. Respect is tempered with humility.
The thing about this issue is that there isn't just one driver. There are many.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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Anastasia wrote: The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue.
You have a right to your opinion...There is a gun problem in this country. you don't need a AK to kill a deer.
I agree with your other points...this country is really messed up socially.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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Violent video games.
24 hour media coverage.
Hands off parenting.
I'd reverse the order.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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Folks that need to do great violence to people they don't even know are incredible cowards. Mostly are afraid of life, blame the world for their troubles, their situation.
Brave men can face themselves and know... If there is a problem, it starts with them and they have no desire to blame someone else. They can handle life. Instead they don't look for the source of difficulties to find the blame, instead they simply conquer them.
I grew up with a brave man. My father was something else.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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"We have a COWARD problem. Whether we're talking mass-murder or street violence, these acts are committed by COWARDS. COWARDS with guns."...
I find that a ridiculous statement and one that is false...
why is that locker?
we don't know how the shooter died in this incident, but in most of these cases, these folks kill themselves because they don't want to face the consequences
Brandon, re your link. it seems in all those other countries, there is a war or threat of war scenario. in that situation, guns for self defense are probably a necessity
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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I'd reverse the order.
I'd agree with that.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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Brandon, we need all those guns to keep us safe. Don't ya know
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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We have a COWARD problem. Whether we're talking mass-murder or street violence, these acts are committed by COWARDS. COWARDS with guns.
That's silly. The shooter undoubtedly had mental issues but why use the word "coward?" To go in and start killing until they stop you almost always ends with a dead shooter.
They kept calling the 9-11 highjackers "Cowards" as well, apparently just because "Coward" is an insulting word, as suicide missions are crazy in many more ways than cowardly
So see a movie these days. I doubted the number of depicted killings in any theater is less than a few dozen on any given day
Peace
Karl
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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I don't see why those gun-toting psychos don't just go fukk off.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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we don't know how the shooter died in this incident...
OMG, I'm going to have to turn on the TV and stay glued until they find out. I can't wait to know... I need to know... OMG, how did it all end? I can go on until I find out... oh the suspense!
Anastasia, ^^^ THAT is what your parents were NOT exposed to.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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I'm going to give up here, because I can't even follow the twists in that logic.
Kos, go to Peshawar and watch them make a machine gun out of used truck parts in an outdoor stall.
The genie is out of the bottle and you can't legislate it back in.
Yes, we need more love. That will fix it. Let's pass some legislation mandating more love although that is the liberal's answer to everything.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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Dean, IMO, it's both parenting and accessibility to firearms.
Kind of a perfect storm of terrible.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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you don't need a AK to kill a deer.
I agree with your other points...this country is really messed up socially.
+1
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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This is a SOCIETY problem....and ours is a society in freefall in terms of moral responsibility.
If this is the root problem then please explain the record low rate of crime in America, including murder.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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although that is the liberal's answer to everything.
you complain of over simplification, and yet resort to it. I know that one can't legislate this problem out of existence, but one can perhaps moderate it. Just because some people can build machine guns doesn't mean that every crazy person will. Most likely most won't, because they just won't have the mechanical ability to. So reducing access ( if that really is possible, and I don't' fully believe that it is ) could possibly reduce this problem. there is a difference between reducing and eliminating a problem.
Gun control is simply a method of reducing access. It will not eliminate the problem.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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Wow 28 dead- that's almost as bad as say A HALF MILLION dead civilians in Iraq.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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Just to reiterate Brandon's point for those who didn't click the link:
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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probably a gun nut.....
Left says sensible gun laws
Right says those kids should have been armed....
Damn shame all the way around
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Seriously, the people that are harping about "accessibility" of guns, how would you address that without compromising the rights of responsible citizens?
And please don't start spewing folk tales about imaginary "gun show loopholes".
kennyt thinks he is being facetious but the truth is garage builds ARE possible.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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although that is the liberal's answer to everything
Yeah, and if the shooter didn't have easy access to guns he could have made a machine gun in his garage from chevy parts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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Actually Kos, I'm a libertarian who hates Fox News as much as CNBC.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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ok, if a "liberal" response is to "do something about the problem"
then guilty
but also true is a "conservative" response is to do "nothing" about the problem
and then bleat and moan about their "rights" being "threatened"
which is better, do something or do nothing?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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although that is the liberal's answer to everything.
Surely more hate and guns are a much better answer Toker?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Hooooo eeeee!
Looks like the L word has really got some people up in arms!
survival,
you read my original post?
I don't blame the tool but rather the lack of guidance, i.e. loving parenting.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Ron: how would you address that without compromising the rights of responsible citizens?
I personally wouldn't worry about it - I'd savagely abridge and severely restrict any such 'rights'.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Looks like the L word has really got some people up in arms!
Well what the fuk do you expect man?
Like conservatives and regressives somehow have a deeper understanding of love and guns? WTF?
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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Do you guys really think that if guns were banned, they'd disappear and no more shootings would happen? I'd gladly give up my arms if this were the case, but I don't think it would help. The War on Drugs and Prohibition are two examples of what I'm getting at. The Black Market would supply the psychos who would do these things and The War on Guns won't change anything.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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A president and a nation weeps.
Susan
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
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Locker has posited that this shooter, along with so many others we have seen, are "mentally ill".
I do not believe that is likely the case all the time. In fact, more often than not, I do not believe these people are suffering any kind of mental illness.
Cragman, you are correct
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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Its now being reported that there was only one shooter, and he is dead.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
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Liberal...Conservative...blah blah blah. We need a real solution to identify and help these folks that are clearly troubled. Seems like the legal system is not adequate to handle mentally troubled individuals. I wish banning guns was a real solution but as we have seen with ilegal drugs, they are real hard to get because they are illegal...right? Gun prohibition would only make the thugs rich and create a whole new level of violence. Extremo left will argue to ban it/more laws, Extremo righty will want fully auto weapons to be available at the local convenience store.
Sad day in America for sure.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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That sick fuk killed his mother who was a teacher at the school and somone in his parents house.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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What I see in this thread is the focus nearly consistently being framed at a fractious discussion our media has been seeding us with for several years - the right to bear arms vs the responsibility which comes with that right.
So very few focused on the horror the people went through, the overwhelming loss so many families and friends are going through. Instead we are intent on a verbal battle neither side can win.
How about a moment of thought for the pain so many have just had foisted upon them, that they find some small comfort in the kindness of a neighbor at this time. And that we take some moment out of our day today to be that type of kind neighbor to those around us.
"Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me." If we can all live by that mindset - we WILL see change.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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What Tami says about guns being controlled in Canada but people getting guns is interesting. We have Switzerland, a land full of automatic rifles with nothing like this, contrasted with Mexico, a land of gun control yet paradoxically full of gun violence. I think Anastasia is onto something I've not considered before.
"The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???
People are getting sick and no one is noticing or... Helping... That needs to change BIG TIME. We are social animals. We need each other."
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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the mental illness issue is a real issue, but I believe some here are mincing words. There are clinical definitions for certain forms of mental illness. I don't know if every school shooter to date has been diagnosed with some form of mental illness, though I believe that many have. I believe what some are saying is that you would have to be crazy to want to do this kind of thing, even though that person may not fit into some clinical definition of insanity or mental illness.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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There is always a limit to the right to bear arms. You can't own chemical weapons, bombs or an rocket propelled grenade
I don't see much self-defense or hunting reason to allow 100 clip magazines. I doubt much of a black market would exist for such things (compared to drugs) but at least if they were illegal the police would have a law to attach to people found with illegal clips
Peace
Karl
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Enty
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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Do you guys really think that if guns were banned, they'd disappear and no more shootings would happen? I'd gladly give up my arms if this were the case, but I don't think it would help.
No they wouldn't disappear but the mass shootings might just happen like they do in the UK - once every 10 - 15 years and not every 6 months. The fact that our shooters don't have easy access to weapons that can fire a thousand rounds a minute probably helps too.
E
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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And yes.. its harder then one would think to get mental health help in this country. Easy in some ways, more difficult then one would realize in others.
For instance, in Mariposa county, if you are poor and are having problems with depression, you get sent to group counseling. Group counseling has been shown to be helpful to some degree, but there are loads of people that it doesn't help. The county has decided that it gives the most bang for the buck, and there is a lack of funds, so that is what is offered. You can get individual counseling, but that is harder to get. More hoops to jump through isn't something that someone who is dealing with depression can always deal with.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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Mexico also has a very corrupt government, brought to you in part by NAFTA and the destruction of the rural way of life in Mexico in favor of corporate profits from moving US companies down there for cheap labor. Uhmerikuh, fuk yeah!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Cragman wrote: Good on Mr. Obama for an hearfelt, appropriate response.
Isn't he President Obama!!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Many potential "causes" have been discussed. Most worrisome of all is the observation that these events are happening with increasing regularity. It would seem we are increasingly unable to maintain civil order.
Our society will be changed.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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The political bickering is lost on me...especially in a time like this. Time to log out.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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I lived in CT most of my life. Two of my children live there, and 40 of my 45 first cousins live there. My sister works two miles from the Sandy Hook School. She is frantically trying to find her friends' kids. You can't imagine how difficult it is for the parents of 700 kids to get to a school in a quiet two lane road. The scene is overwhelming. She spoke to a cop that was quite shaken from seeing a pile of children's bodies.
This may be another mass shooting to many people. To me, this is a very personal tragedy. While part of me is relieved to see that probably my children, nieces, nephews, cousins are OK. How can you be truly happy when this has affected so many people we know directly? and to know that the victims are overwhelmingly kids? and these little kids rarely have a concept of death but now have been so brutually introduced?
I am so sorry for this tragedy. I hate to see their tragedy be used as political fodder in the never ending political tug of war. They have been victimized enough.
My Nutmeg State, My Constitution State - I love you. This is another big hurt so soon after Irene and Sandy. I can't wait to go home again next year.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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Cragman wrote: You get a person enraged enough for whatever reason, you can see them become violent. Look what happened in Michigan the other night with the Union crowds.
As times get more desperate, you will see more and MORE of this kind of event.
Yes..this was a daily event in the depression era.
Are you out of your mind??
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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Ronald Reagan did indeed screw this country's mental health programs. But he had his rebuild the military motivation and costs had to be cut. That's why he had Catsup declared a vegetable for school lunch programs. Just imagine how many bullets you can buy from the savings you get depriving children of nourishment and nurturing.
When we as a Nation are more deeply concerned with securing any individual's right to own any weapon they want whenever and where-ever they want and less about the basic human condition we are condemning ourselves to the chaos of sociopaths.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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Enty, way to quote half of what I said and ignore the rest. Also, you assume that the culture in the UK is the exact same as it is in the US.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Cragman wrote: Bob, our society did not have the influences during the depression that it does today.
Can you understand that?
yes I can...I also understand that saying the world needs "more love" isn't going to change this situation. Start with good parenting, good education, good healthcare and sensible gun laws and we might see less of these crimes in the future.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Locker writes:
"If the crazy dude accepted Jesus as his savior at the time of death...
he get's a free ride to HEAVEN...
Right???..."
Not with a Permanent Record like this guy has he doesn't.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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Easy, lets get this back on topic. I'm guilty of dragging it down too.
This is a very tragic event. Lets show some respect to those involved by having a civil discussion.
I, for one, was shocked to the core upon hearing this and was posting in real time, as I heard details on the radio. I had a minute to decompress and, well, feel a little more rational now.
I walked over to my grandmas house, gave her a hug, and told her I love her. Therapy.
Maybe I should turn the radio off.
Carry on.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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Sure, there are too many mentally ill people out there that do these kinds of acts.....but again, you push someone hard enough...someone raised on a good dose of violent media....they will respond in kind.
Cragman, Locker doesn't seem to get that.
The Aurora shooter quit school because he wasn't making the grades. It pissed him off
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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"The National Rifle Association goes to great lengths (and spends a huge sum of money) to defend the right to bear arms. It is opposed to virtually every form of gun control, including restrictions on owning assault weapons, background checks for gun owners, and registration of firearms.
NRA’s influence is felt not only through campaign contributions, but through millions of dollars in off-the-books spending on issue ads and the like. Following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the NRA supported proposals to arm airline pilots with guns. Between 2001 and 2010, the NRA spent between $1.5 million and $2.7 million on federal-level lobbying efforts. During the 2010 election cycle, the NRA spent more than $7.2 million on independent expenditures at the federal level -- messages that advocate for or against political candidates. These messages primarily supported Republican candidates or opposed Democratic candidates."
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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Really looking forward to explaining this to my children tonight. I find it really difficult to put any sort of perspective on crap like this. It does not help that I will be walking down
the halls of Columbine HS this and most weekends with my kids as they play games in the gym. I consider myself a good father but really have trouble talking to kids about this sort of insanity.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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Six months from now there will be another mass shooting, then another and everyone will say the same things they are saying now. These shootings have become so damn' commonplace we just accept them.
Watch, not a damn' thing will change except we'll start installing more metal detectors at schools. Brilliant.
This nation has a serious problem and we do nothing about it. Maybe because we don't really know the source or what to do?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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10b wrote: Cragman, Locker doesn't seem to get that.
The Aurora shooter quit school because he wasn't making the grades. It pissed him off
Yes and normal mentality stable students go out and kill when they get a failing grade.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
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In 1991 there were 24,700 murders committed in the U.S.
Over the following 20 years the number of murders in the U.S. has steadily dropped by more than 10,000, to 14,612 in 2011.
At the same time, violent crime stats rose in 2011 for the first time in 20 years. This was driven by a 17% increase in simple and aggravated assaults, as the murder rate continued to drop.
(stats from Christian Science Monitor.)
So to be clear, the series of horrendous mass killings of recent is not part of an overall trend of increased violence in the U.S.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Time for me to get back to work. I can't fix what is wrong. The human impact can easily get lost in the cause celebre. Lots of little kids lost their innocence today. Many parents who toiled hard to move to the suburbs and provide a safe environment for their children found that violence knows no boudaries.
I still remember the impact of the home invasion of the Petit house in Cheshire, CT. All these acts of violence chip away at our souls, make it difficult to treat each other kindly, makes us defensive and change the basic way we treat each other. I remember going home that year for CHristmas to find more relatives actually locking their doors - something we never did before 2007.
We can't turn the clock back to the innocence of the American spirit pre-911. These children will remember this day very profoundly. It isn't one in a string of violent events for them. Their parents did all that they could to provide their kids with the best start in life. Now reality is distorted to the bad side.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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"The National Rifle Association goes to great lengths (and spends a huge sum of money) to defend the right to bear arms
I wonder what Wayne LaPierre would say if his children had been murdered?
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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Why would he answer you locker? What do you hope to accomplish by getting your answer? It seems clear that you think you know the answer, so what do you hope to gain?
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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Thanks for pointing out that the overall murders is lower. In this day of instant news and huge publicity, we can be overwhelmed by the negative.
WML - Home. 13 years away, it is still home. Hope all of your family is safe - but in a state with 169 towns, many of them small, we all feel so closely connected.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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You are talking on an open forum..
I have a question for you. What do you hope to gain from Dean?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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This world simply needs more love.
+1 Dean.
The incredible gut wrenching deep loss bottomless pit grief happening in those families is beyond most of our comprehension.
Can we find a few things to agree on, please?
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
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An answer...
It's WHY I asked a question...
Seems like a lame reason to me and unlikely your real reason.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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Thoughts written by a friend of my cousin. It was about the Colorado shooting but maybe worth sharing:
I know very little but suspect a lot about the universe and life. I do know that no where in the genetic code is a recipe for a man who has so abandoned his soul, that he kills strangers and children under the cloak of night and tear gas. No beautiful infant born is destined to become that man. Yet, such a man exists and such sorrow blankets these Rockies tonight. I know such a man is made, not created.
We could spend hours discussing why he should not have had access to guns, but rather, we should each look at our world and wonder how does a beautiful infantile mound of 6 pounds of flesh, bones, and blood become such a man. How does our world make such a weapon, as he? We can blame so much, but we can only change the parts we control. We can scream about parents, guns, and schools, perhaps rightly so, but if we want to extinguish such eves of loss like tonight, we must each examine ourself and what we add to this fire of rage that should not exist. We each must inspect where we direct the precious piece of the universe's energy we govern.
Each time we begin our day in anger rather than love, we add more to the critical mass that explodes in gunfire and sorrow. Each time we find our day, beliefs, and life more important than others, we add another round to the madman's belt. Each moment where we use the back of another man to raise ourselves, rather than help him stand, we etch another name on a tombstone. We create such violent beings with millions of insults to our collective humanity. We each pull the trigger by creating a world that celebrates violence, stands in awe massacres , and does not take care of those who are hungry, poor, suffering, and in despair.
I know that if we each allow our days to be ruled by love, let compassion be our compass, and connection be our destination then nights like tonight will only be populated by stars, rather than the mourning screams of those left behind.
My heart goes out to those who must make sense of such violence in order to understand the vacancy left in their world today. May we honor those, whose glorious potential will never be realized, by removing hate, anger, and disdain from our lives and thus shift the finite balance of our collective energy towards rapture rather than rage.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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Can we find a few things to agree on, please?
Sometimes you have to clear the air first before agreements can be reached.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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Thats cool Locker. I'm glad that you are sincere. I see too many people just wanting a certain answer so that they can attack and make themselves right. Not many just really want to understand.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/
Eleven facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States
Posted by Ezra Klein on December 14, 2012 at 2:07 pm
When we first collected much of this data, it was after the Aurora, Colo. shootings, and the air was thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”
Let’s be clear: That is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.
Since then, there have been more horrible, high-profile shootings. Jovan Belcher, a linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs, took his girlfriend’s life and then his own. In Oregon, Jacob Tyler Roberts entered a mall holding a semi-automatic rifle and yelling “I am the shooter.” And, in Connecticut, at least 27 are dead — including 18 children — after a man opened fire at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
If roads were collapsing all across the United States, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what we could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation’s security measures. If a plague was ripping through communities, public-health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.
Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. But that’s unacceptable. As others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t “too soon.” It’s much too late.
What follows here isn’t a policy agenda. It’s simply a set of facts — many of which complicate a search for easy answers — that should inform the discussion that we desperately need to have.
1. Shooting sprees are not rare in the United States.
Mother Jones has tracked and mapped every shooting spree in the last three decades. “Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,” they found. And in most cases, the killers had obtained their weapons legally:
2. Eleven of the 20 worst mass shootings in the last 50 years took place in the United States.
Time has the full list here. In second place is Finland, with two entries.
3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland.
As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’”
4. Of the 11 deadliest shootings in the US, five have happened from 2007 onward.
That doesn’t include Friday’s shooting in Sandy Hook, Connecticut. The AP put the early reported death toll at 27, which would make it the second-deadliest mass shooting in US history.
5. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.
Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier.
As Healy writes, “The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself.”
6. The South is the most violent region in the United States.
In a subsequent post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context:
7. Gun ownership in the United States is declining overall.
“For all the attention given to America’s culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows,” writes political scientist Patrick Egan. The decline is most evident on the General Social Survey, though it also shows up on polling from Gallup, as you can see on this graph:
The bottom line, Egan writes, is that “long-term trends suggest that we are in fact currently experiencing a waning culture of guns and violence in the United States. “
8. More guns tend to mean more homicide.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. Citations here.
9. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:
“The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state,” explains Florida. “It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place – assault weapons’ bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements. Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).”
10. Gun control, in general, has not been politically popular.
Since 1990, Gallup has been asking Americans whether they think gun control laws should be stricter. The answer, increasingly, is that they don’t. “The percentage in favor of making the laws governing the sale of firearms ‘more strict’ fell from 78% in 1990 to 62% in 1995, and 51% in 2007,” reports Gallup. “In the most recent reading, Gallup in 2010 found 44% in favor of stricter laws. In fact, in 2009 and again last year, the slight majority said gun laws should either remain the same or be made less strict.”
11. But particular policies to control guns often are.
An August CNN/ORC poll asked respondents whether they favor or oppose a number of specific policies to restrict gun ownership. And when you drill down to that level, many policies, including banning the manufacture and possession of semi-automatic rifles, are popular.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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No locker. I am not all knowing. And neither are you. I have seen you get on certain kicks, wanting your answer because you have had a come back ready and really wanted to use it. So I asked.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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Nobody here is suggesting that guns be banned.
I wouldn't have a problem with that
I have no problem with people being allowed to carry a revolver in public for personal protection.
I do
I have no problem with people being allowed to keep a shotgun or bolt-action rifle in their home for personal protection and sport.
I do
But people don't need automatic weapons of any sort, and we don't need huge magazines - those are just toys.
correct
Unfortunately, they are more than toys - they have an effect on people. They give the troubled and disturbed a sense of power. The bigger and badder the gun, the more power they think they have to make things right in a world where they have lost control.
it's called having a small dick
We have the right to protect ourselves, we don't have the right to access the power to kill on a large scale just because some folks favor a particular hobby.
correct
Stop glamorizing the gun, and fewer people will see them as the one power that can solve their problems.
correct
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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This has changed America more than anything since 9-11.
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John M
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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To be TOTALLY honest...
It's a little of BOTH on my part...
Thanks for acknowledging that. this is the kind of thing that I meant about the need to clear the air before progress can be made. My best guess is that Dean knew he was being set up, and so what would be the point of walking into an ambush.
Cards on the table is one form of clearing the air.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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I dont cotton to the MENTALLY ILL defense in regards to these types tragedies.
Ron, and I agree on something
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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Not my idea, but would keeping the names of the shooters anonymous be a deterrent?
I think it would.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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Mental illness or not...
IMHO if you MURDER, RAPE, MOLEST, HARM, etc...
FUK YOU!!!...
In case of MURDER???...
Mental illness or not???...
FRY!!!...
Locker, now you and I agree
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Wait a second here... I lived an hour away from the closest Police Station in Michigan. I was a woman, living ALONE. I did not have a gun but the old farmer that was renting the place to me insisted I keep one of his old shotguns over my door. He supplied it, taught me how to use it, etc. He didn't want some stupid fool figuring I was easy pickings.
One night one of the local idiots did show up. When he broke in and found me waiting with the shotgun pointing right at him , he sure ran faster than I though possible. When the police did show up two hours later, they had fun picking his drunk ass up, told him that yes, that shotgun was loaded and... They told his wife about it too. After that people knew I wasn't such an easy target, and when I went into town, they congratulated me with a job well done.
Now I honestly don't need a gun right now in the town I am living in since the Police will show up super fast but in rural areas, or in cities that have a slow police response because of volume, it's dang useful to be armed and dangerous.
Or at least have a descent sized dog... :)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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but in rural areas, or in cities that have a slow police response because of volume, it's dang useful to be armed and dangerous.
yep
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map
Weapons: Of the 139 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. The arsenal included dozens of assault weapons and semiautomatic handguns. (See charts below.) Just as Jeffrey Weise used a .40-caliber Glock to massacre students in Red Lake, Minnesota, in 2005, so too did James Holmes (along with an AR-15 assault rifle) when blasting away at his victims in a darkened movie theater.
The "If guns are outlawed only Outlaws will have guns" Mantra is nothing but NRA propaganda and hyperbole. It does not need to be so easy to get assault weaponry and high capacity magazines. There is not a single logical reason to have those kinds of weapons in the hands of your average Joe the Plumber. If you choose to believe you need that kind of fire power to protect your life guess what you are all ready dead. Nothing but a souless husk of fear and defeat.
How about this as a compromise; Anyone can get a concealed weapon carry permit provided they are prohibited from wearing clothing.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
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Thank's Ron. That ones been eatin away at me
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Riley, a culture where we call people names with vulgarity so easily is a big problem. Good job.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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This just in...Cause and Effect?
Supreme Court Justice Scalia said he believes the 2nd Amendment gives the right to own any kind of weapon they can physically carry "on their person", grenade launchers, etc
Oh I so gotta get me sum GrrrrNades I'd feel so safe. 'Cause nuttin says back off like a guy on a bad hair day with a GrrrrNade in one hand and the pin in the other.
GrrrrNades don't kill.
Pulling the pin does.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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Until the media stops glorifying the shooter, it will continue to happen. These guys want to be immortalized by the media . Here in Colorado, I see a picture if the Aurora A**wipe just about everyday. They need to not mention their names and stop showing their photos on the news.
We need solutions....not arguments over religion and politics. Sure ban guns but how does the government recover the over 200 million currently owned in the US. Not going to happen.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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How about allowing bullying, allowing folks to mistreat others? Ignoring a person that is visibly mentally ill, just hoping they will go away? Knowing someone is messed up and not attempting to help? How about seeing someone doing a violent act and not intervening? Or seeing someone sick and not assisting? I see this all the time. Even witnessed a guy beating up his girlfriend and everyone just standing there watching. Now that is some weak sauce!
Grow some balls by helping this world get better. Do something that really is harder, takes your time, and makes a real difference. Gun control is only a "part" of the problem. We create more laws and despite them guns will still be easy to get, we just will do it illegally... Plus if that person doesn't have guns, pipe bombs are sure easy to make, there is always poison, etc. The tool is not the real issue, it's the desire to do such harm. I bet there were plenty of signs that this guy was up to this. Plenty and our culture of not interfering, not taking responsibility to reach out and figure they guy out lead to this.
AFS
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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Any change we could simply mourn the dead kindergarteners, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th graders for, oh, maybe 24 hours before resuming this inane bullshit topic that will change no minds and lead nowhere?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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An honest question: How restrictive are Connecticut's firearm laws?
I don't have any info on that, but I don't need any info to know that this is appalling. Sad to say, I doubt that new facts will change many minds on this issue.
John
Edit: Thanks, bvb, for saying what I should have said.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Guess not.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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Riley,
I challenge you to point out exactly where Anderson was wrong when he wrote:
"an "ar-15" is only called an "assualt" rifle due to its shape and appearence. it is NO different that any semi auto deer rifle or skeewarell shooter out there."
If you can't, then I would suggest you take your own advice and "f*#k off with stupid..."
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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Doesn't the MURDERER get to go to heaven if he repents and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior???...
Pardon me, Locker, ...I know you didn't ask me...but one does not accept Christ with words. He is accepted by obedience to His gospel.
Can a soul that hastens to shed innocent blood be reconciled in obedience after the fact? I think not...the deed being done and irreversible, the slaying of innocents is unforgivable.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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He was only wrong in the appropriateness of the comment and his timing.
Factually correct doesn't equal tactfully appropriate.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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Can a soul that hastens to shed innocent blood be reconciled in obedience after the fact? I think not...the deed being done and irreversible, the slaying of innocents is unforgivable.
I guess the key here is "unforgivable" by whom?
Some folks would say the Jesus would/could forgive a true repentant.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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Well said Bob. Sad day. We live in a broken world yall. Outlawing guns, making knives illegal, making dirty bombs against the law. None of it will change the selfish, angry, lonely human condition.
The problems of "life in the USA" isn't the problem, thinking so is a good way to spend your life unhappy. If you think Republicans are the problem....if you think Democrats are the problem......well, good luck with that.
There is an answer, and a solution to man's inate depravity. All men know what it is, if they are willing to admit how broken we all really are.
Sad day indeed. My deepest condolences for all and any involved.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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I challenge you to point out exactly where Anderson was wrong when he wrote:
"an "ar-15" is only called an "assualt" rifle due to its shape and appearence. it is NO different that any semi auto deer rifle or skeewarell shooter out there."
If you can't, then I would suggest you take your own advice and "f*#k off with stupid..."
The hunting rifles I grew up with required cycling the next round manually with a bolt.
They didn't "semi-automatically" cycle the next round themselves.
There's a difference.
Edit: Some of you seem to be confused between "hunting" and "semi-auto".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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There is an answer, and a solution to man's inate depravity. All men know what it is, if they are willing to admit how broken we all really are.
suicide?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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People who use semi-auto for deer and skewerrel can't phukking shoot straight.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
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That's about the level of response I expected from you.
You probably should take that advice you were handing out.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
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Riley, I know you are never afraid to say freely what you believe and I'm fine with that. I just saw it funny that you were quick to say that blood is on those who support guns, while being so hostile in your post. It's a far bigger issue than gun control and blaming the opposite wing for these situations does nothing. I'm sure this is where you call me a pussy, and that's fine, not into long arguments on forums and don't hold a grudge. Cheers.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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well said micronut.....how do we stop this?reasonable solutions,theorys,etc.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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Pretty f*#king sad day when even the neanderthals in the House and Senate can shut the f*#k up for five minutes and leave the bullshit for another day, but the supertopo "community" is off to the races before the last dead kids body is cold. For today, anyway, this place has no class whatsof*#king ever. Why don't you all just step away from the f*#king keyboard for five minutes and look in the f*#king mirror.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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Why are these nut jobs doing this....we need to get to the root of the problem. Many argue guns but our world is full of guns that can never be recovered. My opinion is these guys do it to live in infamy. They need to go bigger every time to shock the world. Personally, I think we need to go Black Hawk Down on these shooters and string them up and let the victims take turns beating their corpse. Sounds sick but I honestly believe they do this because they will be the focus of media attention until the next whacko shoots up the crowd. Media needs to stop showing pic and using shooters name. I had to unfollow a local news station on FB because every time I open up FB, it seems the Aurora j***off is staring at me on my computer screen.
Cant wait to see my kids to hug them.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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This is from Wikipedia about 2010.
The key doesn't come over, but basically the darker the color blue, the more murders.
Murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants most recent year.
0-1
1-2
2-5
5-10
10-20
>20
Anyway, murder is not some phenomenon local to the U.S.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
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Can a soul that hastens to shed innocent blood be reconciled in obedience after the fact? I think not...the deed being done and irreversible, the slaying of innocents is unforgivable.
I think you need to qualify that statement. Saul of Tarsus murdered lots of innocents by his own admission. Are you saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to pardon him?
Frankly, right now I'd rather not talk gun policy or theology, but I know of no other cure for human frailty (and no, Norton, it's not suicide).
One thing I do know, however, is that a whole bunch of innocents are dead because of a very depraved act.
John
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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People here are reacting...
It's "normal"...
+1
Locker, that's two times now
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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Am I supposed to be surprised?
This is America afterall.
The country that sucks at healthcare, sucks at education, sucks at basic human civility - but we can sure bomb the crap out out of your country.
Let's face facts - we LOVE violence like no other place on Earth.
Video games - shoot 'em ups.
Primetime TV shows - shoot 'em ups.
Movies - explosions and shoot 'em ups.
Wars - we can't go a decade without shooting someone up.
Our entire culture glorifies shooting people and then we are supposed to act shocked when someone does this?
Werner is right - we ARE stupid.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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We are a culture of hate and violence...maybe it is the time for some self reflection and getting to core of our social issues in this country instead of always claiming we are the "greatest".
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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Sorry to offend some- but I HATE video games!!!
I may sound simplistic, but before I retired from teaching, I saw in other classrooms--not mine, kids virtually addicted to violent video games.
The teacher next to my classroom, who eventually was fired, condoned the bright idea of allowing kids to goof off on the computer, every day.
His class became known as an area where kids could play video games all day.
Guess what--the most popular games were the gory violent type.
My observation indicates a much more serious problem, which I really don't have the answer for.
I personally love my single shot rifles, but I never had much use for semi-automatic guns.
The problem here is much more serious than guns and video games. I never heard of such tragedies when I was growing up.
I worry for my grandchildren--where are we headed?
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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Bob - I'd like to think that one day this country would reflect on a different state of being. But I fear that we still have too many citizens willing to raise their foam "We're Number 1" finger to the sky.
As long as we continue to raise kids saturated from birth with violence - be it real or imagined - we will never evolve beyond the bomb throwing, bullet shooting monkeys that we are.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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The conservatives want to ban "weed" "sex" "condoms"... but not assault weapons.
WTF is wrong with them???
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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It is oh so boringly predictable; the self-appointed expert on firearms;
You don't need a semi-auto to hunt deer. If you don't get it on the first shot, BFD. It's called sport.
No civilian needs a semi-automatic or automatic weapon for anything.
Self-defense wouldn't be "sporting" if you didn't give the robber/rapist a chance.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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The media acts like this is such a tragedy and horrible thing, yet they love the ratings and how many are glued to their networks. Yeah we live in a violent society.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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"Tyranny of Dogma alive and well".
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micronut
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
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Dave,
A little bit of both. I agree with you. Action matters. Action helps, but it does not cure the root of the problem. Would you agree?
Your cavity analogy. I fix it. But your analogy isn't sufficient for say, cancer. You can treat it, but there is time to get to know the human when all else fails and treat the soul. But this madness, this horror, is like cancer. Sometimes the "fix" goes deeper than a policy or a law.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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My response to that cartoon;
Stalin
Mao
Hitler
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micronut
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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Riley,
I hear ya. But being raised in a different country might not make this all better for you. Think of the mass shooting in scandanavia last year.
I'm sorry this is hittin' you so hard man, your anger is good if you channel it into something productive. Not so if it consumes you. There is a bigger picture here concerning the nature of humanity. That's all I'm saying.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabond movin on
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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I am not a gun owner. Nor do I believe in further gun control to solve an apparent problem with our society. I DO however think people need to discuss the power of video games. Here is a list of the top 10 that kids across the country are absorbing with fervor. These games have become IMO a big factor in desensitizing the moral value of human life. Even the military has both recognized and capitalized on this concept. Now days, we have many latchkey kids with a surrogate parent....the xbox.
http://www.cnet.com/1990-11136_1-6310088-1.html
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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The largest school killing in US history was not committed with a gun.
Bath, Michigan
May 18, 1927
By far the worst school massacre in US history took place in the tiny town of Bath, Michigan in 1927. There, an angry school board member named Andrew Kehoe blew up the town’s school, killing 45 and wounding 58. Most of the victims were kindergarten through sixth grade students. A secondary explosion killed Kehoe and the school Superintendent.
Also we here in the US are not alone is these horrible incidents...
April 26, 2002
Erfurt Germany
A former student kills 18, including himself at a school in eastern Germany.
March 13, 1996
Dunblane, Scotland
And of course we cannot forget Norway.
Peace to the dead and the bereaved families and friends.
Edit: Phil you need to add a third panel to that cartoon, the # of Americans (myself included) who have protected themselves from a violent end with their legally owned firearm.
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cmcc
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Excerpt from a book titled Hurt
"I'll tell you why I don't trust anyone at this school or my parents. Everybody is out for themselves. Teachers, coaches, parents, even my church group leaders - they are all out for themselves. Nobody gives a (expletive) about me! Nobody!"
- a sixteen year old girl following a presentation on trust
This statement is representative of hundreds of comments I heard from a wide variety of midadolescents. The issue of trust for this population is not whether they can be trusted but whether they feel safe enough to trust an adult. Many mid adolescents feel that adults are more concerned with their own agendas than with the needs of adolescents, and therefore, they cannot be trusted.
my own words now...
All this gun talk seems to be a lot of finger pointing.
Tragedies like this remind me about the cry that is inside our young people for authentic and meaningful relationships. It challenges me to be put down my agenda. When I do I am a better friend, capable of being a listener and encourager of someone else's dreams. Maybe in the midst of caring for our youth this rage and hurt can be diffused, maybe healed.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Anyway, murder is not some phenomenon local to the U.S.
No, but mass shootings of innocent people at schools, malls, etc seems to be pretty well concentrated here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Ron, there is visible smoke coming out of NRA headquarters, there spin doctors are experiencing cerebral overload.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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Philo writes:
"Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment."
That's one reason they were successful in killing so many of their own citizens. You can't do that to an armed populace.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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yeah
if those third graders would only have been allowed guns they would have stopped this
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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I've had 3... or were it 4... guns pointed at me. Every time I thought "what a fuking piece of sh#t, pointing a gun at a teenager for [skating near their house, mooning their car, swearing in a record store, fuking their granddaughter]..."
Couldn't even deal with the situation without pulling a gun... talk about pussies.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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[quote]Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.[/quote
That is what I like about you philo, your amazing ability at understatement.
(right down to your not thanking a guy for a quarter grand for your pain in the neck)
;-)
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
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Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. The left side of the tally on Phile-ho's cartoon (his favored mode of "analysis") should read "Tyrant's Established" (although we could be flirting with that now).
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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Toker quipped Self-defense wouldn't be "sporting" if you didn't give the robber/rapist a chance.
I, too, live in a Charles Bronson fantasy most of the time.
By gun-nut logic the perpetrator of this massacre was helping make America safer until he shot his roomie and hopped in the car to head to the school. Guns did not to decide to kill all those kids...
...but man did they make it a hell of a lot easier.
America needs to stop giving in to the paranoid anti-gov't idiots who live in trailers in the middle of the desert. People have a right to own firearms. They don't have a right to stockpile arsenals without someone taking notice. The "well gee we are helpless to track these people unless they have a record" excuse-makers are idiots. Let's stop acting helpless already. 3,000 people died on 9/11 and now I can't send a text message without the NSA reading it. 30,000 people die every year to firearms but I'm supposed to just shrug it off because the evil government would have to learn how many guns I owned to start doing something about it. If more guns really = less crime then how come so many motherf*#kers in this country keep getting killed?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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Ron: My response to that cartoon: Stalin, Mao, Hitler
Ron, get real, your guns are less than zero impediment to US government assuming broad powers if the wrong folks got in control.
It ain't rocket science, clear society of two thirds of the weapons currently in circulation, dramatically curb the right to posses weapons, and institute rigorous oversight of weapons which remain lawful.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Just heard a piece on NPR about the profiling of mass shooters, and the perception of an increase in mass shootings over the years. The interviewee said that in spite of perception, the number of such shootings in the US hasn't changed much over the years. (Not sure exactly what his definition of 'mass shooting' is, but his numbers were in the range of ~20/year.)
I suppose that's tragically interesting and oddly comforting (poor word, I know) to know such shootings are not dramatically increasing, but I'd sure like to see public attitude become more invested in seeing those numbers go down as years go on, and not simply write them off as some kind of ghastly status quo.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Here's a list of shootings from U.S. and around the world. Regrettable wherever it happens, but not confined to the U.S.
•July 20, 2012: At least 14 people are killed when a gunman enters an Aurora, Colo., movie theater, releases a canister of gas and then opens fire during opening night of the Batman movie “The Dark Knight Rises.”
•July 22, 2011: At least 80 people are killed at a summer camp on the Norwegian island of Utoya. A man arrested also is suspected in a blast earlier the same day in downtown Oslo that killed seven.
•April 30, 2009: Farda Gadyrov, 29, enters the prestigious Azerbaijan State Oil Academy in the capital, Baku, armed with an automatic pistol and clips. He kills 12 people before killing himself as police close in.
•March 10, 2009: Michael McLendon, 28, killed 10 people — including his mother, four other relatives, and the wife and child of a local sheriff’s deputy — across two rural Alabama counties. He then killed himself.
•Sept. 23, 2008: Matti Saari, 22, walks into a vocational college in Kauhajoki, Finland, and opens fire, killing 10 people and burning their bodies with firebombs before shooting himself fatally in the head.
•Nov. 7, 2007: After revealing plans for his attack in YouTube postings, 18-year-old Pekka-Eric Auvinen fires kills eight people at his high school in Tuusula, Finland.
•April 16, 2007: Seung-Hui Cho, 23, kills 32 people and himself on Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va.
•April 26, 2002: Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, who had been expelled from school in Erfurt, Germany, kills 13 teachers, two former classmates and policeman, before committing suicide.
•April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, opened fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 26 others before killing themselves in the school’s library.
•April 28, 1996: Martin Bryant, 29, bursts into cafeteria in seaside resort of Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia, shooting 20 people to death. Driving away, he kills 15 others. He was captured and imprisoned.
•March 13, 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, kills 16 kindergarten children and their teacher in elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland, and then kills himself.
•Oct. 16, 1991: A deadly shooting rampage took place in Killeen, Texas, as George Hennard opened fire at a Luby’s Cafeteria, killing 23 people before taking his own life. 20 others were wounded in the attack.
•June 18, 1990: James Edward Pough shoots people at random in a General Motors Acceptance Corp. office in Jacksonville, Fla., killing 10 and wounding four, before killing himself.
•Dec. 6, 1989: Marc Lepine, 25, bursts into Montreal’s Ecole Polytechnique college, shooting at women he encounters, killing nine and then himself.
•Aug. 19, 1987: Michael Ryan, 27, kills 16 people in small market town of Hungerford, England, and then shoots himself dead after being cornered by police.
•July 12, 1976: Edward Charles Allaway, a custodian in the library of California State University, Fullerton, fatally shot seven fellow employees and wounded two others.
•Aug. 20, 1986: Pat Sherrill, 44, a postal worker who was about to be fired, shoots 14 people at a post office in Edmond, Okla. He then kills himself.
•July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty, an out-of-work security guard, kills 21 people in a McDonald’s restaurant in San Ysidro, Calif. A police sharpshooter kills Huberty.
•Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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RonA, wrong as usual. Mayors and the police actually agree, not disagree, though rightwing, activist supreme court judges agreed they were willing to do a party line, NRA interpretation of the second amendment, but that's about it. But of course, you can't carry in their courtroom.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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The issue is that there WILL always be crazy as#@&%e nutjobs and high capacity weapons and handguns are TOO f*#king easy to get in this country.
Yes drug dealers will get guns no matter what, but having sensible regulations on assault weapons and high capacity clips will help keep them away from the nut jobs. And yes there is a f*#kin difference between a semi-automatic deer rifle and an assault weapon with a 30 f*#kin round clip. If you don't agree explain why to the parents of the 20 children who died today.
The conversation will change at a national level due to this incident and the killing of children. Better stock up on your assault weapons living in fear boys because they are going to become harder to get.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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Hey Dave, let me guess; the following is a list of violent crimes that have left you a victim;
Is that about right?
Is a Republican merely a Democrat who has been mugged?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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Apogee as I posted earlier (maybe on the other thread) the number of murders in the US has dropped by 10K in the last 20 years. This is a remarkable statistic especially considering the population growth during the same time.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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Roe v. Wade
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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yep, R v W
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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Ron said thats what you think H,, the govt disagrees completely however.
Yeah your guns really deterred the patriot act from assuming wide power. According to you, Obama even "outlawed dissent" (which is why you are in jail instead of sitting on your ass criticizing him in public). I'm not willing to risk my kids' lives to entertain your paranoia any longer.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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Is a Republican merely a Democrat who has been mugged?
um, no
FACT: A Republican President Reagan signed the most "restrictive" gun control laws
FACT: President Obama, a Democrat, has signed into law the most gun right "friendly" legislation in the past 30 years
You don't know your ass from second base
This Democrat carries all the time, it is naive and childish to stereotype people
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
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Toker quipped Hey Dave, let me guess; the following is a list of violent crimes that have left you a victim;
I see. So you can only complain about firearm murders if you were killed by a firearm.
Here is a list of US government agencies that were stopped from carrying out their "power grabs" because of citizen owned firearms:
Here is a list of the incidents that Obama thought about doing something but then found it unworkable because he feared clashes with armed citizens:
Here is a total count of the tears shed by gun nuts today before thinking "oh man now this means were going to have to have a firearm argument:"
As far as I can tell the only "freedoms" the NRA has expanded in the last 30 years are the freedoms of firearm manufacturers to make larger profits and the freedom of mass murderers to quietly amass arsenals unnoticed.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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Of course the sheeple and media will focus on the tools at hand...
What we need to figure out is what may be a common root cause of this random homicidal rage. Something has changed, for the worse, in the past 20 years. That's not a long span on time. Meds, GMO foods, chemtrails(jk)...
My vote is on meds. I've personally been witness to psychotropic med induced insanity in otherwise perfectly normal people with normal histories. The recent push on television of these complex and horrifying drugs is sickening. If you think the NRA lobby is anything compared to big pharma companies.. you'd be wrong.
This isn't about guns. It's about where this human will to kill as many strangers as possible comes from often in young people without violent histories. For some reason the last mall shooter really bothered me. 22 and seemed so damn normal from his digital history....
So, we need to disect every killer's medical history. Were there any common meds perscribed? I can't even count how many people I know now on some med "for the winter blues"...
Every one of those medication comes with the "May cause suicide" warnings.
It's not a stretch at all if someone's brain is that fuc#ed by chemicals that suicide is pretty damn close to homicide.
But no... the media will focus on how many bullets he had.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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I am not going to pontificate, I just want to cry for those that lost loved ones. Little children, dead. They did no harm to anybody. My heart goes out to those families.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
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Well, Dave, what can I say?
You da man!
(more precisely, you da revolver man. I bet Gerry M is preparing to hand you his crown as we speak.)
Does that mean that arthritic grandma better man up and learn to crank a .38 instead of that cute .25 in her purse?
HDDJ, you become a lawyer? Pretty good at twisting words around.
I guess now that we have the Patriot Act to defend us we might as well just turn in our guns.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Which state has the least gun deaths?
Which state has the strongest gun control laws?
hint: it's the same state
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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So 28 people are dead, mostly small children, and apparently including the gunman. Plus the wounded. Let's spare a thought - preferably much more than a thought - for the families, friends, and community of the dead and injured. Enough of the usual monotonous yapping, from the pro-gun crowd especially. Have you no hearts?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
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I think you need to qualify that statement. Saul of Tarsus murdered lots of innocents by his own admission.
Mr. Eleazarian,
I question whether Saul of Tarsus openly and straightforwardly shed innocent blood. Translations imply he "consented" to Stephen's death by watching over clothes of witnesses while Stephen was stoned. Hardly a valiant deed... but he seems to have been without authority at the time Stephen's martyrdom.
There is very little in Paul's epistles about his past. And his epistles contradict Acts. Some scholars believe his epistles are more reliable than the account in Acts.
The account in Acts says he bound and delivered individuals to prison. Certainly, he admits to willing persecution but I think the passage in Acts 22:4 requires a measure of boldness to imply he was favorably inclined to the shedding of their blood.
Are you saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to pardon him?
I'm not proposing that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient...I'm suggesting Christ, Who's redeeming blood was shed...and Who accepts or rejects repentances... cannot look upon the willful shedding of innocent blood with the least measure of allowance.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mike-huckabee-school-shooting_n_2303792.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=888105,b=facebook
Mike Huckabee: Newtown Shooting No Surprise, We've 'Systematically Removed God' From Schools
Former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee (R) weighed in on the massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. on Friday, saying the crime was no surprise because we have "systematically removed God" from public schools.
"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"
This line of reasoning isn't new for Huckabee.
Speaking about a mass shooting in Aurora, Colo. over the summer, the former GOP presidential candidate claimed that such violent episodes were a function of a nation suffering from the removal of religion from the public sphere.
"We don't have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem," Huckabee said on Fox News. "And since we've ordered god out of our schools, and communities, the military and public conversations, you know we really shouldn't act so surprised ... when all hell breaks loose."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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Anders,
no fair.
When these horrible events occur the anti-gun people come out of the woodwork.
The problem is hate and insanity not guns.
Its like losing your keys in the garage but looking for them in the living room because the light is so much better.
Don't call me insensitive because I'm not wringing my hands to your satisfaction while I defend my freedoms held responsibly.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
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Which state has the least gun deaths
I'm curious, which is it? Are you talking per capita?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
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Don't try to argue with the gunnuts. They are insane. And they are mostly all members of the extremist group, the NRA. You can only defeat them at the ballot box.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
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I wonder if F*#kabee prays every night that little kids don't fall victim to such senseless violence. If he doesn't he is a hypocrite and there is blood on his hands. If he does, clearly god isn't listening. This is why I left the priesthood... it is way too easy to twist sh#t to fit whatever lie you want to promote. Religious "reasoning" is despicable.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
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Kind of like a photo of Werner on a thread about the kids of firefighters killed on 9/11
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
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Wow Phil, talk about injecting some serious insanity into the conversation as a way to try to brand your opponents here who share zero with that lunatic.
You guys feel pretty free to sling mud, don't you?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
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Right to the real point.
Killer Killed His Parents First
Parents first.
He then went to Connecticut to kill a woman he was involved with somehow -- whether wife or ex-girlfriend -- and also to kill all the children near her.
I think we were just talking a few weeks ago about a certain form of intensely narcissistic psychopathy that spurs people to kill everyone close to them rather than just taking the gentleman's way out of suicide. (I don't mean to give a nod towards suicide but if the difference is between killing yourself and murdering your whole family for your failures and inadequacies, let's put in a good word for suicide.)
I've said this before but I think the media can help reduce these things from occurring. These nutters see themselves heroically, sort of as bigger-than-life agents of mayhem and evil. Now that may sound like a bad thing to you, but it doesn't sound bad to them: They've embraced it.
And what Evil is usually described as, in popular mythology, which these guys are not, is potent and capable. Yes, Evil is horrible, but these guys are embracing it for the Power of it. Because they are failures and hopelessly inadequate in their own lives, they contrive a fantasy in which they become Dark Heroes -- larger than life and big as death -- by murdering a lot of people.
Obviously we have a debased value system here. But it does seem to me that that one thing they value and cherish is their self-conception of the Big Scary Man, who you should Take Serious Notice Of because he's Scary and Capable of Anything.
And a lot of media coverage tends to play this angle up. And I don't mean to knock the press too badly on this -- evil sells, and these people are evil.
However, I think it would do at least something to dissuade the next potential mass murderer to know, for example, that coverage on him will not focus on the Evil Menace part of him (which is a self-conception he finds flattering), but the Sad, Lonely Pathetic Guy Who Has a Small Dick and Couldn't Keep a Woman or a Job and Just Couldn't Hack It part of him. The part that's actually much more relevant to his crime -- masterful men do not have to kill people to let the world know "I exist" -- and the party that he's actually afraid of other people knowing about.
If I were the media, I'd allow myself to get very personal in publishing accounts of these guys. Personal, and nasty.
Rest of the article
http://minx.cc/?post=335690
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Gene
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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How about this?
Before the extent of the carnage was known, we split ourselves into pro- and anti-gun and started screaming at each other. How about a moratorium on the politics of division and lets collectively and individually get off our soap boxes? Maybe a day or two of gun debate silence in memory of the kids and teachers lost today? Maybe join together and reflect on the loss of so many innocents? We can get ugly with each other about guns later. Go light a candle and cherish its light.
g
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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Thanks' Gene
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
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I pray for the children, the parents and all of US.
Pure evil takes a human form.
No words can express my feelings.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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Well done Gene.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
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Thanks Gene. A voice of sanity.
I had a full on multi paragraph post ready but as I usually do I checked back in with the thread before posting. Saw you remark and, well, you're right.
It can wait.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
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In fact I would call it an insult to the victims past, present and future to simply sit back wringing hands while lamenting and mourning and crying out "why is this happening", but doing nothing about it. That is until the next horrid tragedy when the hand wringing can commence a new.
There are sites for mourning and condolences. I encourage everyone so moved to visit them and posit your deepest sympathies. However It is past time for a discussion on what can and should be done.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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Thoughtful words from Gene but....as one who has experienced the loss of a child i can tell you that the first few days you are encapsulated in a cocoon of numbness, it gets much worse several days aftter the event.
Bob D. has a good point about the fact that gun lobbyists will use any tactic to delay thoughtful debate on gun issues....hell, one poster on ST mentioned chemtrails as a possible culprit.
When to start discussion, when to have a time out to grieve....?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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Before events like this we are already split, mainly because one side chooses to forget the tragedies that go hand in hand with their perceived right to quick and easy gun ownership.
D'A is right. I feel for the families, no doubt it is tragic. But silence on an internet forum does nothing for the victims or their families. If you feel like being silent and it makes you feel better... sign off and be silent. You know what might help comfort those affected... knowing that the root causes of sh#t like this is being addressed: a culture of violence, self-interest, and outrageous fixation on easy access to guns.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
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A lot of factoids have been thrown around the thread along with way too much invective.
None of us can imagine the terror the living and dead children suffered. Nor how the survivors will suffer for the rest of their lives. How the HELL can anyone massacre children?
And how the HELL can this country continue to allow any citizen who chooses to buy a semiautomatic rifle? Without restrictions in many states.
Here is the raw data of rates of gun ownership and death by gun for major countries.
And the graph that correlates the two.
I researched and analyzed the data last year after the Cupertino mass murder.
The top correlation graph includes Mexico and Argentina which have unusual ratios of gun ownership to gun deaths. The lower graph omits Mexico and Argentina.
The blue line is the ratio of guns to gun deaths. Gun deaths include homicide, suicide and accidental.
You cannot claim there is no correlation.
And yes We're #1----WAHOO!!!
There are always outliers. Brevik in Oslo. A guy in England last year. The big events get the press.
Day to day more people die by firearm per capita in the US than in any other modern industrialized nation.
So by all means, tell me that essentially unrestricted access to gun ownership is good for our society.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
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Nicely stated Bruce Kay!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
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philo
I would call it an insult to the victims past, present and future to simply sit back wringing hands while lamenting and mourning and crying out "why is this happening", but doing nothing about it
donini
.as one who has experienced the loss of a child i can tell you that the first few days you are encapsulated in a cocoon of numbness, it gets much worse several days aftter the event
you both clearly speak my own thoughts.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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Hey Jim and Fred....thinking of you two.
Susan
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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"Maybe a day or two of gun debate silence in memory of the kids and teachers lost today?"
"That is said after every one of these sick and violent events."
Yep. Methinks some/most of the families of the kids & teachers would find more significance in seeing something....anything...positive that could come out of an event like this that could minimize similar events in the future.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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nobody will admit,"guns did not kill those kids,but it sure made it a lot easier"....as read earlier in this...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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Mental illness is such a cruel disease.
Edit : consider how guns are only a tool the mentally ill use to do unthinkable things b
Consider the possibity it's time we stop ignoring mental health needs in this country.
More I ponder this tragic event, that's what I come to. The guy shot his mom in the face so many times she was unrecogizable, then, took her registered guns to the school. No sane person does that.
Could have just as easily rammed his car into a classroom. Sorry for the bad analogy...
Ugh.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/wake-another-mass-shooting-lets-talk-about-americas-dangerously-gutted-mental
It's not so much the guns, the ammo, the NRA.
It's the country's stupid attitude about Kooks, Creeps, Dips, Freaks, Tards, Borderline half-wits, Jack-offs, Twerps, Midnight Ramblers, Goofballs, Tragically misunderstood Momma's Boys, and Wicked Witches.
Fatally-flawed geniuses not so much...
Never mind the fact street people never seem to be the perps. It's always some loser loner with a middle-class background. How you gonna spot these guys? It's futile, IMO.
And it sucks. It's homegrown terrorism. No fuching around, put them down. Sorry, Ash Hole. They were teeny little kids!
Maybe the next time it won't happen during the holidays...
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
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Mother killed by her own gun. No surprise there. You're much more likely to be killed by your gun than using it to save your life.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
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toadgas
reductio ad absurdum
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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How long before the public wants their schools to be run more like prisons?
And yes, it was a nut with a gun that did this. Nothing would have changed this outcome and from what I've heard so far the teachers did all that they could to protect the innocent.
Yet another example of how much damage guns do to peoples lives.
I can hear the gun lobby already "The guns didn't walk onto that campus by themselves" and their stupid f*#king argument "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"…
The world would be safer without Bombs, Guns and Corporations that make money off both
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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no ,i am not sorry,its the guns,i live in wny,the largest bullet making state in the world.it is the guns.what do you do about it?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
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Jim...Montana was a great kid who loved life and his dad. So sorry for your loss. I was so impressed with him the few times I had the pleasure to talk with him one on one.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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I'll try this again to see if anyone actually notices the facts...
In 1991 about 24000 people were murdered in the US by various means, guns being the most common but strangling, clubs and body parts like fists were also used.
In 2011 slightly less than 14000 was the number. A steady decline of over 10000 over 20 years.
You say we are a violent society? I say that compared to for example the middle east or Africa we are amazingly peaceful here. And we are certainly a more civil society than we were 20 years ago.
It has been posted upthread that the number of these horrific mass killings has remained about flat.
The biggest school mass killing was in the 1920s in Michigan and was done not with a gun but a bomb.
The media whips these awful events into a frenzy, it is hard to keep one's perspective.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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Maybe a day or two of gun silence in memory of the kids and teachers lost today?
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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I agree. Kids died today. Little kids.
It's time to mourn.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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Kris wrote: The media whips these awful events into a frenzy, it is hard to keep one's perspective.
Are you really serious...20 kids dead, 7 adults and the shooter.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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The media whips these awful events into a frenzy
Oh yeah, it's not nearly as bad as as it seems.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Riley you are completely out of control.
It saddens me - not the depth of sadness we all feel over today's news - but it saddens me anyway to see someone on this forum resort to vile insult and name calling. We are all among a group of people with a common interest and experience. We can agree on some things, disagree on others and all still be brothers and sisters in climbing. In this we are not like most other people.
To me your bullshit is like water off a duck. I try to present reasoned arguments and you spray profanity and insult. There is no engagement or exchange of ideas.
Too bad really.
EdiT: Jeez guys. Where did I say it wasn't bad??? The facts support the conclusion that our society is significantly less violent than 20 years ago. That was my point in case it wasn't obvious.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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Heidi and I discussed this tragedy over dinner and we both remembered stories from friends and family that work as judges, about how desperate the situation has become with people that are “mentally ill.”
With budget cutbacks in healthcare, the standard for “mentally ill” people in Idaho------and I think most other states, has become:
Incarcerate, medicate, and release.
The problem is: Idaho releases them, and when they quit taking the medication, that allowed them to be released, the judicial system doesn’t know until they commit another transgression that cops are called for.
It looks like the sick-man in Connecticut may have been one of those that was released for good-medical behavior. At least he was at home with his mother. A surprising number just get kicked out to become “street-people.”
I want to second the comments from a ST member from Connecticut with 500+ post on ST.
fear! I think you have a real point!
From fear:
What we need to figure out is what may be a common root cause of this random homicidal rage. Something has changed, for the worse, in the past 20 years. That's not a long span on time. Meds, GMO foods, chemtrails(jk)...
My vote is on meds. I've personally been witness to psychotropic med induced insanity in otherwise perfectly normal people with normal histories. The recent push on television of these complex and horrifying drugs is sickening. If you think the NRA lobby is anything compared to big pharma companies.. you'd be wrong.
This isn't about guns. It's about where this human will to kill as many strangers as possible comes from often in young people without violent histories. For some reason the last mall shooter really bothered me. 22 and seemed so damn normal from his digital history....
So, we need to disect every killer's medical history. Were there any common meds perscribed? I can't even count how many people I know now on some med "for the winter blues"...
Every one of those medication comes with the "May cause suicide" warnings.
It's not a stretch at all if someone's brain is that fuc#ed by chemicals that suicide is pretty damn close to homicide.
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TRo
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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I remember when we hid under desks as students (in the 50's) in "drills" called "Civil Defense" to protect us from nuclear attack from the Soviets. Then as a teacher doing the "Columbine" lock down drills to protect us from ourselves. Anybody know what's next?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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Public schools are not designed with intruder scenarios in mind, if they were they would look like a prison.
I think that with some imagination this scenario could be avoided. Of course making our schools like our airports is the worst outcome.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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Anybody know what's next?
Based on what I read on this thread, a further lack of civility when we should be sharing our grief.
John
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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I look at my prized collection of digital photographs of my 4 year old Grandson and cannot for the life of me imagine any reason to shoot him.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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I keep thinking about the poor kid who saw someone come into his classroom and shoot the teacher without a word. He ran with friends out of the room and escaped. 20 other classmates did not escape. His world has changed.
I don't know why this happened. I do acknowledge that murders are less frequent. Somehow the incessant media coverage makes it feel so much more overwhelming. Does it encourage the unbalanced?
I do remember another mass casualty - the family massacred in my hometown. Until today, that was the largest mass murder in CT's history. The foster brother beat his brother's wife and children with a tire iron, then set the house on fire. 9 people died. I drove by as he walked away from the crime scene late at night. One of the children had been in my religious instruction course a couple years earlier. That certainly affects my opinion that insane people determined to kill will do so. That day my world changed. At least I was 18 years old before encountering such evil.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Does it encourage the unbalanced?
yeah I think so
three days ago at the Oregon shopping mall mass killings, the killer said "I am the shooter", prior to opening fire
fame
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 14, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Somehow the incessant media coverage makes it feel so much more overwhelming. Does it encourage the unbalanced?
Yes, publicity is a factor. These killers feel empowered by these acts and the resulting uproar. A good analogy would be the guys who run out on the field during sports events. The networks refuse to show them on camera, it reduced the occurrences of that nonsense. If they quit publishing the details of the killers, no pictures, no names, then I think we could reduce the copycat effect.
edit: girls also run out of the field, remember Morgana?
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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My heart goes out to all of the families affected in Newtown, CT, especially the little ones who survived. What will it be like to be 5 or 6 or 7 years old and to have to set foot inside that school again? And what will it be like for every parent that has to drop his child at school? I can't imagine what it must feel like to have the rug pulled right out from under you at such a young age.
It seems to me that this sort of violence is just bullying, albeit on a grander scale. I wonder whether the gunman was bullied? Or was he a bully?
There's all this talk about treating one another with respect and decency...special classes in school, national media attention, ad campaigns...can we agree to respectfully disagree, even here on this forum?
I recently stood up on behalf of a colleague who was being bullied by other people in the office. The bullying continued to gain momentum and draw other individuals into the mob until he was getting it from all sides.. Once they figured out that I wasn't on board, the retaliation/bullying grew to include me -- I was even warned not to get in the way (i.e., my job would be in jeopardy). Not for nothing, but I strongly believe that the fact that this sort of behavior is tolerated, and effectively encouraged when no one takes a stand and says, "Hey, this isn't right." - this is the heart of the issue.
If there weren't guns, another substitute would be readily available...IMHO.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 14, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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I look at my prized collection of digital photographs of my 4 year old Grandson and cannot for the life of me imagine any reason to shoot him.
Because you are sane.
These mass/random killers are clearly not. The media and most people are looking for reasons from a sane point of view. This will never work.
But, there have been troubled/insane people since time began.
There have been weapons since time began. Firearms are largely unchanged in the past 50 years. Firearm ownership in the % of US households is far less than it was 100 years ago.
What is different now? Something has changed... very recently.
That's what we need to find out and fix. What is driving the motivation to kill random people, and now babies, in previously otherwise nonviolent/young future killers?
So what's changed in the past 20-30 years?
Psychotropic Medications (my theory), something in the food, chemicals in the environment, etc... These 20-something random mass-killers were born unto the medicated generation. Perhaps those "harmless" ADHD meds crammed down their throats while their brains were still developing has had some other unpleasant side effects, like murder.
What's changed is where the answer lies. Not in bickering about who should be able to own high-capacity magazines or signs declaring areas "firearm free". That solves nothing and simply divides us.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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What the news seems to be saying.
1. The Lanzas were living in a very well to do neighborhood. Big houses with lots so big it was semi-rural.
2. At the time of the divorce the father signed over the property for $1.
3. There is an older brother.
4. The first person he killed may have been his mother, who was a teacher at the school.
5. Virtually no contact with the people in the neighborhood.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 14, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
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I can't read all the posts here tonight, but has anyone mentioned the person in China that today stabbed 20+ children in their school. Some reports say they were stabbed to death.
There are all types of things out there that can hurt people. But generally they are used by....people.
When horrendous things like this happen it seems we want to attach blame to something and think we can solve the problem by doing away with the thing we blame.
But passing more and more laws and restrictions doesn't seem to make the problems go away.
The answer perhaps lies in the core of humanity.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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Instead of countless posts about guns and arguing here about them....even tho we are climbers and should be kindred spirits in some fashion....how about taking some time out and writing a letter of condolence to the families and sending it in care of the school to show we care.
It almost seems irreverent to argue when people are in such pain and suffering such loss. Lynne
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:31am PT
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LL LL -- "... how about taking some time out and writing a letter of condolence to the families and sending it in care of the school to show we care."
Best comment in the whole thread .......
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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Lynne,
Closer to home, almost twice that many people have been murdered in San Bernardino just this year. Christmas is going to really suck for all those families this year too. Maybe think about helping some of those folks out too. Nobody remembers them. Obama has remained silent too.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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How could we get their information, Chaz? Looks like there's plenty of folks that need support. A real field of opportunity to turn the world around. Cancel out the hate with care and compassion. This is a good time of the year to start.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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Gene had the best post.
Asking why is a process of disassociation
when all that is needed is sympathy and support.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:10am PT
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Too bad mental health care isn't as easy to get in this country as guns are.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:14am PT
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Why is a presumption that
1. We can figure out the mind of these people, on-line, with limited knowledge - thus justifying our "I have it figured out, and if this were MY world"...
wait for it...
disassociation.
2. Tends to supersede the real issue: the victims, family friends, etc
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:15am PT
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Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.
How much easier could it get?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:18am PT
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At least three guns were found - a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both pistols, inside the school, and a .223-caliber rifle in the back of a car, authorities said. A law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity said some of the guns used in the attack may have belonged to Lanza's mother, who had legally bought five weapons.
So, again, we have the situation they always warn against: A gun owner killed with her own guns, which are stolen, and used in the performance of violent crimes.
Of course, if she hadn't bought the guns, he would have done the same thing with her kitchen knives.
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John M
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:46am PT
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Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.
How much easier could it get?
Very very very short term help is available. Usually in groups. There are lots of people whom groups would not help.
Also, much of the "free" help are people who are new, or don't have particularly high levels of training.
It would be like going to the school nurse for brain surgery.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:20am PT
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no exchange of ideas needed...
That about sums it up.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:03am PT
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KSolem, I used to like you (your posts), but...
... now I feel sorry for you.
In my eyes, you just do not get it. Perhaps I am wrong.
My heart goes out to those victims and their families. By your posts KSolem, you do not have the same feelings. Perhaps I am wrong, and if I am, I apologize. But as I can see (read) you come across as a bit callous on this tragedy.
Perhaps I am wrong.
I understand some of the right-twits on this forum, those who love guns and say "Guns kill, people don't". Try telling that to a parent who just lost a child to a nutter.
But KSolem, in the past you always seemed level-headed.
Earlier, in a post on this thread, I said that I do not want to pontificate. I guess I just have.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:24am PT
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Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.
Well Chaz, here in Albuquerque a mentally ill man went to the hospital with a secure treatment facility (Anna Kaseman) literally begging for help. He was acting out, pissing on the walls, etc...
They were busy and the administrator sent him packing. The next day he shot and killed five people at various locations around town, finishing up with two uniformed officers.
I don't think their survivors would find your comment informed or humorous.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:13am PT
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Chaz said Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.
Maybe you should ask for some then snce you are clearly delusional. The underfunded and undersupported mental health system in this country was virtually GUTTED during state budget cuts by various tea party driven "thou shalt not raise taxes" sate legislatures. In Prescott, Arizona, the Yavapai Guidance Clinic, a major source of care for those in need in that area, went from something like a dozen therapists to 2 in one year because of state budget cuts. Elsewhere in the country, mental health care consists of putting people in prison or into a state run mental health facility (basically a prison) where people struggle to provide any real care to the patients.
Feel free to depart from your "America is a socialist paradise" dreamscape and join us in the real world anytime.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:24am PT
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From the NY Times today.
The gunman was chillingly accurate. A spokesman for the State Police said he left only one wounded survivor at the school. All the others hit by the barrage of bullets from the guns Mr. Lanza carried — the rifle was similar to a weapon used widely by troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — died, suggesting that they were shot at point-blank range. One law enforcement official said the shootings occurred in two classrooms in a section of the single-story Sandy Hook Elementary School.
So who will be the first fool to regurgitate the NRA approved BS claim that if he didn't have guns he would have still done it but with a knife or a lead pipe or a tennis racket?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:30am PT
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Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Agree, this is a delusional statement.
I work in the healthcare and mental healthcare field. In my state there is a 6-month waiting list for "free" mental healthcare.
Before I went into medicine I was told by a crusty old doctor that 99% of what you see in the emergency room is related to mental health problems. I laughed at his ridiculous statement.
But now 2 decades later I see that he was right. Almost everything that we treat in the ER is in some way or another caused by, or related to, mental health problems.
Almost everything that we see in the ER is caused by lifestyle choices - dysfunctional choices related to untreated mental health issues.
Ex:
childhood sexual abuse > depression > alcohol abuse > automobile crash > trauma
anxiety > over-eating > obesity > diabetes
The sooner that our society recognizes that mental health problems are at the root of our society's problems, the sooner we can move forward to deal effectively with the issues.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:38am PT
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I can see the scenario...
Desperate man on the breaking edge of a violent rampage decides to seek help at local mental health facility and is told to come in for an evaluation in six months. Six months later the survivors of his rampage depressed to the breaking point of suicide seek help at the local mental health facility and are told...
But hey it's FREE right?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:45am PT
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http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/14/1339761/hours-after-kindergarten-shooting-michigan-gop-calls-for-allowing-guns-in-schools/?mobile=nc
Hours After Connecticut Kindergarten Shooting, Michigan GOP Calls For Allowing Guns In Schools
By Zack Beauchamp on Dec 14, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Hours after the terrible shooting in a Newtown, Connecticut elementary school, the Michigan House Republicans issued demanded that Governor Rick Snyder (R) sign a bill that would make it easier for people to receive a gun permit and open up “gun free zones,” including schools. A statement attributed to Press Secretary Ari B. Adler shrugged off any link between guns in schools and school shootings:
Now that IS crazy!
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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QINTL, thanks for sharing the link to the school principal's Twitter account. Her last tweet was of an article out of the Harvard Business Review..."Nine Ways Successful People Defeat Stress". The first is to have "self-compassion"; the second is to remember the "big picture". I'll have to read the rest of the article another time -- this is all just too sad.
Lynne, I really like your idea of sending a letter to the school. Together today the muppet will draw a picture and I will write a letter, and we'll send these off to the school. They will just be drops in a pond...but you need a lot of drops of water to make a pond.
Just a couple of general thoughts...everyone deals with the shock of an event like this differently, so judging how one person or the other responds emotionally...well, I'll just put this thought out there for consideration. Effective advocacy requires understanding where the person you are trying to persuade is coming from and what he values, and incorporating these considerations into your pitch; generally speaking, yelling, name-calling, door-slamming, lack of respect for differences of opinion, bullying and refusing to really listen and understand are all ways of ensuring that you, as an advocate, will not be heard.
And, yes, I do believe that if the gunman hadn't been able to access guns, he still would have found a way to exert his pathological aggression, but that's just my humble opinion. I'm respectfully open to hearing what anyone else has to say about my own thoughts and opinions.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:54am PT
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^^^^^ (Dec 15 2012, 6:44am PT)
Silver I don't get your rant. What are you trying to say?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:01am PT
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Silver I am sorry that you perceive me as ranting. I do not feel that I am. I believe I have made good valid and strong points without drama or histrionics. Expressing condolences and hugging our kids is great and should be a normal part of our humanity. But it wont get dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people. To say that in his derangement he would have perpetrated this aggression any other way is a simplistic knee jerk reaction. If he had gone into that school with a baseball bat how many more children would be celebrating Christmas with their Parents this year?
There is a thread for mourning I encourage all to post there if so moved. But this thread has been from the OP about ANOTHER mass shooting. Not about how sorry we feel. Something must be done. Is it unreasonable to say that? This should be a dialogue about what can and should be done. It is sad to me that every time these horrid episodes occur gun advocates circle the wagon and reload rather than engage in reasoned and adult dialogue. If that is ranting in your mind I can't help that.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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That being there is a BIG difference between "wounded" and "DEAD".
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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I think sadly that the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to controlling guns. Too many rabid "patriots" would pull a Charleton Heston ("over my dead body!") and too many criminals armed to the teeth.
That said, I think owning a gun should be at least as difficult as getting a commercial rating for a pilot.
Guns, unlike bombs, don't take a lot of planning to use. Get pissed off, grab a gun, squeeze the trigger. So IF guns had been difficult to obtain/access for this kid, it's likely he would've been hard pressed to inflict the tragic horror that transpired yesterday and we'd have 26-odd people still alive and able to celebrate the holidays with their families.
People who don't live in the wild and think they need guns are a complete mystery to me.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:10am PT
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Guns are a tool that have one purpose.
I have lots of tools. I can even use them for purposes they were not intended for.
I can probably trim my beard with my wire cutters or pop beer tops with my linesman.
But they were made for a purpose. Guns are designed to kill. You won't likely use your hand gun as a hammer or your rifle as a pry bar would you. Oh sure if I was mad enough I could kill someone with my hammer. But
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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I didn't resort to vile name calling or insults, Dave.
Your credibility gap is showing there.
I'm trying to point out that the real problem is behavior rather than the availability of a tool that is basically the combination of a power drill and a TV remote control.
This was a horrible tragic event. I have no intention of minimizing that.
But one thing that I find heartening (and I currently have the History Channel playing a show called Engineering Evil, about the Holocaust) is that 70 years ago there was so much death and destruction that this event would not have even merited much attention, but today the lives of 20 children is so dear that a billion people are paying attention.
The world might actually be a better place if we are becoming more compassionate.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:16am PT
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Yeah next time I see a bear in my kids school I will be sure to brandish my power drill and remote control.
So what do some of you suggest? Rounding up- all guns in this country?
See right there is part, a big part of the problem. Reasonable people start to discuss reasonable regulations and the die hards burp out the "round up all the guns" non sense.
No is remotely suggesting rounding up all the guns or having the UN troops do it or what ever am radio BS is spewed. We are talking about certain classes of weaponry and ammunition and magazines that have no valid purpose in the hands of your average citizen. Make them illegal then perps can be arrested for that and not murderous rampages.
Can any of you gun enthusiasts say unequivocally that your life and personal liberties would be egregiously harmed by not being able to legally own a machine gun? Or an UZI or a MAC10?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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Careful philo, you might get 1 in the head and 4 in the ass.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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without glue
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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Careful philo, you might get 1 in the head and 4 in the ass. No there is a classy retort. Should I feel threatened enough to go arsenal up?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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Somebody said the same thing in Germany 80 years ago,..
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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So if inanimate objects like guns don't kill people and thus everyone should be allowed to have any of them then by extension nuclear weapons also don't kill people. So why are so many of you gun guys bent out of shape about Iran's supposed quest for the bomb. Israel has them, Pakistan has them India has them, why not Iran. After all they don't kill people.
And to those who would assuage any sense of moral decency by saying well that gun man was crazy because you would have to be crazy to shoot children in an execution style I give you this Paradox;
By your own definition many of the soldiers in the IDF are crazy. Why should we give them more fire power?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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Hitler became Chancellor 79 years and 11 months ago.
Gun control was on the initial agenda before the Nuremburg laws 2 years later.
But what do I know,...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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Uh oh, looks like philo is on his "bloodthirsty jew" rant again.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
... but I do have a big dick, so nothing to worry about.
My advice to you, if you really are hung? Go f*ck a donkey and don't let your penis get caught in your pant's zipper.
Like this post and your's, it does little to address the topic. So Mr Self-fellatio, go suck it and don't worry about the dead children.
And when somebody has the moniker/avatar of MeChrist, when are you going to go on a rampage, so we can warn everybody. Jesus was a pacifist, you come across as a nutter, IMO.
For heaven's sake, there are 20 innocent dead children, and you want to say that you have a big dick. YOU ARE a big dick.
There is only one word for your kind... jerk.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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No ron just once again pointing out the glaring double standard here on ST.
I am crazy about my right to bear arms.
Only crazy people shoot children point blank.
If a teacher had a gun they coulda popped em with "one in the head four in the ass".
But those dirty Ayrabs are crazy so they can't have any.
They might hurt some kids after all.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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And that would be, philo?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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Phil let's say you have three neighbors. Two are trusted friends, the third is a nutcase who stands on the corner and yells that he will kill your friends. Who will you prefer has the nukes?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Is that the kid was killed by shrapnel from a Kasam rocket short round recently?
That particular photo has been proven a fraud.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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TGT, I think you might be right. If the child really was shot "point blank" as stated then there would be stippling of the wound.
Sad anyway.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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"That particular photo has been proven a fraud."...
No tEEEEEgEEEEEtEEEEE it hasn't. It is real. I have seen the video of the attack and bringing this boy into the hospital. What has been proven false is your tenuous grasp of reality.
Ron you may be surprised to find out that Palestinian kids usually wear clothes even while being shot by crazy IDF kid killers. It is indefensible. Bringing up a few shrapnel wounds as a comparison is no different then arguing that a knife wounding of 20+ children is the equivalent of 20+ children dead from bullet wounds. Weak and morally indefensible arguments.
Hey if all those neighbors can have legal access to assault weapons then I want everyone to have a nuke, After all Nukes don't kill.
Double standard on parade.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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Dave,
I learned my "folklore" from my father.
He was a jew.
He was a gun owner.
He was born in Berlin in 1926.
His family escaped Hitler in 1935.
I didn't resort to name calling before, but after that comment you really deserve it.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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Now I am confused, which is easily done.
But Ron Anderson, are you not also Toker Viilain? I was under the impression that you are both. And if I am correct, why two avatars? And I if am wrong, I apologize.
May the 20 innocent children, and the slain adults, rest in peace.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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Lest it be lost in the wilderness, the shooted accomplished with these guns EXACTLY what these guns were designed to efficiently do.
One could even think of the event as another marketing event for the manufacturers.
After all, it IS pretty impressive what one armed person was able to do in a couple of minutes....no doubt there are some proud gunmakers today.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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Some people, on this thread, are showing their true colors.
SAD.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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An army of one.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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Ken M
that is in poor taste.
We are talking about the slaughter of innocent children.
(and now a word from the glue fumes,....)
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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This thread has evolved to be MORE about ones right to own Military style weapons...
than the shooting itself...
Sadly they always do and there in lies a part of the problem.
We are talking about the slaughter of innocent children.
Yes Ron so was I.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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RON
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Every time this happens I wonder what the outcome would be if it happened at a board meeting of NRA or gun manufacturing execs. Or to the schools their kids attend.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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I also truly beleive that no one outside of Law Enforcement/Military and the likes SHOULDN'T be allowed to own Assault style weapons...
Define your terms please.
Are spoons at the prison cafeteria "assault spoons"?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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Yes they did what they were designed and intended to do.
You know I am pretty sure I could kill with a vacuum cleaner but that isn't what it was designed and intended for. Don't drool crocodile tears of lament for the slaughtered children while simultaneously demanding your and by extension everyone's inalienable right to bear assault weapons.
Oh yes Ron by all means ban spoons.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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They are coming for your guns boys. Better find a new hobbie maybe darts would be good
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Don't drool crocodile tears of lament for the slaughtered children while simultaneously demanding your and by extension everyone's inalienable right to bear assault weapons.
philo, you are showing a very ugly side of yourself.
What do you really know of my mind?
(and I've actually never sought to assault a bear)
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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^^^ LOL ^^^
Well I am out for now time to go stock up on GRRRRnades.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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Well I think I know what you mean locker, but why are you against assault "style" weapons?
Are they too efficient, accurate, rugged and effective?
Do they take the "sport" out of self-defense?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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My pappy grew up on a farm and hunted all his life while owning several hunting rifles..He also served in the air force with exposure to deadly small arms and automatic weapons...He never owned a hand gun and always warmed us kids about the dangerous nature of them...Now handguns have become a phalic symbol for every physically and mentally challenged American male....pack one under the front seat of your monster truck and all those nagging self doubts will disappear.. .Handguns are now idolized along as is the violence that goes with them...They have become toys and status symbols for the macho and rarely used in self-defense...When George Deukmejian was governor , he advised Californians to arm themselves as the police could no longer protect them...It's really tragic that these innocent kids and their parents have to pay the price for the Ted Nugent mentality that has been given so much attention in this sick society...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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But riot guns are OK, locker?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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Should I do a Travis Bickle, "You talkin' ta me?"
What foolishness, Donald Thompson had it right.
locker,
10-20" barrels, 5 (or more) shots
legal in most states fer sure.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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Back in the mid-1970s California had about 15,000 assault rifles on the streets.
The government wanted to limit the number of assault rifles in California. So the state legislature passed a bill to ban the sale of all assault rifles, but any existing assault rifles could be kept.
During the short debate over the bill before it was passed, another 50,000 assault rifles were sold in California.
Glad to see that the measure worked so well.
There is no easy solution, is there?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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Well locker, I didn't specify pump or semi-auto.
Don't think it matters much, both have advantages and disadvantages.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Ron, Locker, etc.
You talk about ideals like making guns harder to purchase, or ASSult weapons impossible to buy.
Great ideals, we have some of those rules in Canada.
HOWEVER,
this whole scenario could have played out in Canada with the same weapons stolen from the same homes where they were legally owned.
Everyone seems to ignore the facts of what happened - this COULD have happened in a number of other countries where gun violence is almost non-existant.
It truly isn't about the types of guns or your gun laws. This whole thing wouldn't have happened if there weren't guns, but it also wouldn't have happened if there weren't schools.
It is about your society as a whole, the types of guns or laws for guns will not change how your minds develop.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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This is boring and pointless.
The rain is letting off. Time to stop at the range with a box fed semi-auto high power rifle and practice lighting up ass-clowns.
Ben Franklin had wise words on security and freedom.
I intend to endeavor to be deserving.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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jghedge,
what you say may, in fact, be true. What would solve a lot of trouble in the US is removing every single gun from everone except for the 'prison guards' or TSA in your society.
From where you are in history, that would be the only choice. You would turn into a prision society and have to loose a lot of your freedoms. I'm sure, for a variety of reasons, that this will happen as your government gets more in line with the UN and continues to take power from the individual states, move it up to the federal level, and then up to the UN level.
And as this happens, you will notice that society continues to degrade, and problems like this will still happen, just not with the same methods. Then you will wonder why these things happened, once it is too late to do anything about it.
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ramonjuan
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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Throw his body out with the trash. No decent burial for these selfish cowards. What a waste.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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Parents need to be more aware of what's going on in their kids lives.
Peers need to be less hesitant to talk about behavior that troubles them.
Guns need to be less accessible to said individuals.
The issues are BOTH mental health and gun control, as these events intrinsically tie them together.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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If the issue is gun control, Canada is wayyyy to lax. 9mm and .223? They don't make much smaller than that! Then only pellets and BB's should be legal?
Let's look at reality here folks!
If he had shown up with 50 cal or something, you would have more of a logical point.
These guns were one step up from a air gun though.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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Huckabee is a effing moron. God needs an invitation?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
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Huckabee says the reason for this violence is because god has been removed from many aspects of life.
I thought god was always around, all knowing, all seeing.
What's up with that, Huck?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
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Read a few more posts this morning and couldn't read anymore. Sitting at my desk with tears.
Do only a handful here get it? We don't need bitter words, accusations and name calling right now. We need to hurt with the people hurting. We need, as Lilabiene put it, to be drops that add up to a body of healing.
For God sakes do something positive......lynne
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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Locker, I've got these guns, I know the difference. And this kid had tried to purchase a .223 from a store, they wouldn't give it to him that day because of the waiting period, etc. The law worked there. Then he went and committed a crime by killing someone to get their guns in order to commit another crime. The laws were already in place to refuse him a gun, and it worked. How would you have changed that law which did what you say it should do? You wouldn't. Your post didn't apply to reality in this case. It applies to theory where you live maybe, but not in this state.
What Huckabee is saying is that they don't allow prayer in schools, removed 10 commandments and other things from other schools for whatever reasons, he is playing off that old controversy.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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jghedge
Assult weapons by a liberal classification would mean that the Remingon 870 dressed in black or camo would be restricted vs. a Remington 870 with a wood stock.
I don't know why you can't see that is what Ron is getting at - maybe you don't know much about guns?
I'm neither, I live in a country that doesn't divide people by pro or anti into blue and red groups. But I lived in yours for 10 years and can see how both side close their eyes to problems to stay on their side's pre-determined agendas.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Of course we know what Ron is trying to do, confuse.
Sometimes adults have to draw black lines in grey areas.
Assault weapons lists have been created, both state and federal. There will always be apparent contradictions around the edges. Should we throw them out because perfection is not possible?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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One look at Remington's website and you would no longer be confused.
http://www.remington.com
Liberals would say the first one is OK and would restrict the second. In Canada, they restricted the magazine for Reuger 10/22's because it looks like a banana. So we buy from Butler Creek because they weren't smart enough to realize there are knock offs.
If you have politicians and citizens as smart as that in your country too, you will not solve anything!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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Bruce, our culture for the past 50 years has been so fundamentally different in hundreds of ways that even if we could carry the 2 classes of guns that the US can, we wouldn't have the problems they have today.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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Wow jghedge, I didn't think that there were actually Americans with that train of thought yet. OK then!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Hey both Rons, sorry to confuse you both. I wasn't sure. My sincere apologies. Sometimes, on the internet, when we are not communicating face to face, things get misconstrued.
Jennie is having a bad hair day, so to speak. Okay, she is really confabulating. The public health nurse and her doctors are not too worried. I am the one freaking out. But then, I am her carer, and partner. I do worry.
So when an issue like the shootings come up, I feel queasy, to the point where I called the Samaritans, just to talk with somebody about the issue. The woman I spoke with said that actually both in the UK and Ireland, people have called in about the Sandy Hook shootings. It is a disturbing event.
Unfortunately, I have no answers. People who want guns will get them. An armed teacher? To stop the head case? I doubt it.
We know that it is not just about the US, but it seems that most of the shooting incidents are in the US. And it is not the fact that God and religion are not taught in schools, like a couple of politicians say.
There is a break down some where. I don't know where. And those 20 dead children will never know.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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I might be simplistic to blame one thing here.
While the efficiency of the tools count, and the side effects of psych meds could be a factor, I still think the rampant gun violence depicted in Movies and TV condition us to view using guns as flexing our power.
and I see that motivating these mass killers. They are showing us how powerful they are.
Peace
Karl
from a few pages back
Now handguns have become a phalic symbol for every physically and mentally challenged American male....pack one under the front seat of your monster truck and all those nagging self doubts will disappear.. .Handguns are now idolized along as is the violence that goes with them...They have become toys and status symbols for the macho and rarely used in self-defense..
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
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Would solve the problem. Talking about which of your penis-substitutes has a wood stock, or whatever, is idiotic.
A lot of folks where I live hunt. It's a part of our culture.
I'm all for tighter regulations, but an outright ban will never happen. How are we going to get our deer? Elk? Antelope? Fowl?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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(Please let's not go into the "but we need it to take on the military" argument - what a joke.)
The data is pretty clear as regards opposing an organized military force. IED's and suicide bombs are much more effective.
I know the suicide bomb lacks the feeling of invulnerability making guns, at least superficially, attractive. A thoughtful person need only look at the trauma experienced by our returning veterans to disabuse one of that trivial belief.
Guns give one a sense of being able to project great power over a distance large enough to allow one to feel untouchable. Very seductive. But the reality is quite different. I understand the first rule for a sniper is always to change position. There's a reason.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
The rock doesn't care what I think
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
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Dirge without Music
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I am not resigned to the shutting away of loving hearts in the hard ground.
So it is, and so it will be, for so it has been, time out of mind:
Into the darkness they go, the wise and the lovely. Crowned
With lilies and with laurel they go; but I am not resigned.
Lovers and thinkers, into the earth with you.
Be one with the dull, the indiscriminate dust.
A fragment of what you felt, of what you knew,
A formula, a phrase remains, --- but the best is lost.
The answers quick & keen, the honest look, the laughter, the love,
They are gone. They have gone to feed the roses. Elegant and curled
Is the blossom. Fragrant is the blossom. I know. But I do not approve.
More precious was the light in your eyes than all the roses in the world.
Down, down, down into the darkness of the grave
Gently they go, the beautiful, the tender, the kind;
Quietly they go, the intelligent, the witty, the brave.
I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God, we can't pray in public, we strip all evidence of God from our culture, and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God.
I beg to disagree, this is us operating under the delusion of way too much god. And speaking of god - where was he? And THAT was his plan for those children? Please keep your god delusions to yourself.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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Cragman wrote: We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God,(bullshit) we can't pray in public, (Bullshit) we strip all evidence of God from our culture,(bullshit) and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God. (and Bullshit again)
Ok..Mike Huckabee!!
For christ sakes man...what type of perverted god do you believe in??
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God, we can't pray in public, we strip all evidence of God from our culture, and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God.
This is why we shouldn't allow prayer in schools
who are WE?
YOU speak for yourself Crag. no one else.
Edit:Think we just got trolled from the SuperPulpit.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Well stated, Ron Anderson
Locker/Norton
2016
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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^^^^^^^
Well stated, Norton.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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I have three beautiful children, a beautiful wife that has share the last 38 years together with me, I have a beautiful dog and get to hike in the beautiful hills with her around my house.
I don't live in hell.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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An other interpretation of this would be that drugs were used as an alternative to commitment with tragic consequence.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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For the first time: I find myself in agreement with Donald Thompson statements on ST.
On physicians advice last year, Heidi got off birth-control pills.
She then had accelerated Menopause and hourly "hot-flashes."
She then was prescribed Effexor at a low doseage for the "hot-flashes."
One tablet fuked her up for 24 hours, with symptoms including total insomnia, blackouts, and paranoid delusions.
One tablet was enough.
She has had problems this year with back and hip pain related to nerves damaged from a hard "butt-plant" on ice. Things are now getting better, but every physician along the way offered her prescriptions for antidepressants, not for depression, but for supposed arthritus and/or pain.
After a bunch of research, often at crazymeds.com, she is flat out scared to take any antidepressant. http://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage
The sh#t is way over-prescribed and can have horrible side-effects.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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And as usual Ron can't even get a quote right..."In short, the attribution of this quote to Plato remains most questionable, while its appearence in works by George Santayana is a fact, and the possibility that the source of its misattribution to Plato be General McArthur is quite real, though not proven."
Please show something linking that quote to Plato.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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At least fourteen recent school shootings were committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs. There have been 109 wounded and 58 killed.
Association does not equal causation. You learn that on the first day in Statistics 101.
Saying that the psychiatric drugs causes mass shootings is like saying that flies cause garbage.
Who are the people most likely to commit mass murder? Normal people or psycho nut cases?
Who are the people most likely to be taking psychiatric drugs? Normal people or psycho nut cases?
I think heaven and hell exist. I think hell is what we live physically- and how we handle that determines our heaven.
Profound statement, may I use that statement myself?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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Ron wrote: Well Bob,, you COULD just look at recorded history to know whomever made that statement thus far, in thousands of years have been quite correct.
In your world...not mine.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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Jhedge:
Hers's something I can point to that isn't speculative - the shootings wouldn't have occurred if the shooters hadn't had guns.
Joe, I have to point out that you are missing an "e" in the first word of your post
as you have always shown perfect editing skill, this is inexcusable
we expect more out of you
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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Food for thought:
"The 2nd Amendment was written as a reaction to insure individual freedom against the potential of an oppressive government. It then was used to support the westward expansion of our nation, and continues to this day into what we think of as the frontier society, from whence so many of our beliefs and laws are derived. The idea of a frontier society, though dramatic and interesting as a formative story in the creation of our country, needs to be mourned and put in our past. Aside from hunting, let's advocate for the abolishment of all weapons by private citizens that could cause the death of another. We have enough checks and balances in our institutions to insure against the potential of undemocratic action by our government. I can see how this measure was important with a newly formed nation, but it no longer applies. The cost in human life to maintaining this right is unconscionable."
Really...why is there 300 million guns in the US?? Almost 200 handgun deaths a week. WTF!
Here is what we do know...the countries with the strictest gun laws have the least deaths by guns.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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further comment on posting while including quotes from others
first highlight and copy the quote
then paste the quote
then highlight the entire quote again
then click on the '' symbol, the fourth from the left under Please enter your reply below
this will then properly place the quote in a cool separate window
thank you for observing posting etiquette
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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We have enough checks and balances in our institutions to insure against the potential of undemocratic action by our government.
Really? I think that the forefathers of this great nation thought differently. I think that they knew that all of the bad things that people do and become just don't go away and that we need protection until the end of time against the tyranny of an oppressive government.
Did the Patriot Act Give or take away peoples civil rights, even just a tiny bit? That didn't happen in the old west, it happened now.
Maybe we don't have an oppressive undemocratic government because civilians are armed. Who can know for sure?
Dave
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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God has not been allowed in schools since 1962.
Good.
You want your kid to read the bible, pray to allah, chant all day?
Send them to a private school--NOT a taxpayer-paid public school.
Quit shoving YOUR mythological, hocus pocus, Gawd babble down everyone else's throat.
Oh yeah, and read the damned First Amendment.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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And now, a word from our sponsors.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Bob, I wish you would post more often
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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So you can have people being raised by their video games, with images of death and destruction that they end up living out, or we can raise kids with the idea that loving their neighbor as they love themselves, is a good way to roll.
We should raise our kids that way, but god doesn't have to come into the picture.
You are free to raise your kids however you want, but not everyone accepts the same god as you. Does that make them damned?
All major religions teach the same moral code, so teach your kids with whatever name you put on that code, and leave your personal god at home. You are a great parent, rest easy in that your kids are growing up the way that you see fit.
But, god stays at home and in church in regards to discussion. It has no place in schools. Schools are for learning, not indoctrination.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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or we can raise kids with the idea that loving their neighbor as they love themselves, is a good way to roll.
thanks for pointing that out, Cragman
and parents can teach their children that without also making them believe they have an imaginary old bearded friend up in the sky somewhere
another imaginary friend is coming soon, Santa
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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Cragman wrote: God has not been allowed in schools since 1962.
Really...so what were the nuns teaching me in third grade then?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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And now, a word from our sponsors.
Credit: bvb
Bob, isn't that very inappropriate? Jesus, have some humanity...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Why do you talk to Jesus with that tone, Blue?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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Really...so what were the nuns teaching me in third grade then?
Bob, those nuns were not teaching in public schools but private Catholic ones
Like you, I wore my little uniform in a private Catholic grade school
and then spent all four years of high school in a private, all boys Christian Brothers institution
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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Cragman wrote: Public schools, Bob.
Really...you are still wrong.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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Same with me Norton.....and look at where you, Bob and I are now- guess it didn't take.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
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Dave Koss said:
Again, it is my belief that God hears all prayers
very comforting, assuming true
you are a very smart guy, Dave, can you go a little further and tell us how the god your believe in decides which prayers to answer and which ones to ignore?
or perhaps you mean god just "hears" prayers, but does not get involved in personal lives?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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Norton wrote: Bob, those nuns were not teaching in public schools but private Catholic ones
And god wasn't banned in public schools either.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
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How about they let God back in schools and you gun nuts give up the guns?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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How does one ban someone who is omnipresent?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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How does one ban someone who is omnipresent?
through the power of prayer
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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Amen.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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Today i forgive the shooter. . . . and Thank him.
Yesterday i mourned with anger and grief. My heart blead with sorrow for the parents and families of the lives that were so abruptly snatched away.
My conscience can relate, as i to have a 6 yro daughter. Upon hearing this
traject news i was thrusted down deep within myself for reflection."What
if my daughter was gone when i went to pick her up from school?" Well,
long story short. She was there. And for the rest of the day, i carried
the DEEPEST feeling of Appreciation to the moments that we share together.
Through this awareness my vision was striped down to focusing on her fears
and concerns. Then her hopes and dreams. All in all, it was one of the most
bonding days of our lives! For THIS i thank the shooter
I also thank him for the conscienceness he has brought around the world to familys of how SHORT and PRECIOUS our time is. And for setting
up a stage which has caused familys to openly reflect, and discuss the True meanings of Life and death, and Love and hate. i know it brought
a lot of parents around me to appreciate their children a little more
this day.
I only hope we can carry this intense appreciation through Chirstmas
and offer it up to the Lord. I can only imagine the pain of the parents
who lost a child. But remember God lost a child yesterday too. When the
shooter took his own life.
For this i hope the evil spirit that posessed him BURNSINHELL.
Jus Refect'in
BB
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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"How do you ban something that is non existant?"...
To believers, god exists, and we shouldn't disrespect that faith.
How did this turn into another cyclical god thread?
God had nothing to do with yesterday's tragedy, lets just leave that aspect out of this, please.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
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To believers, god exists, and we shouldn't disrespect that faith.
Yeah, right. Everything that happens, they teach, is God's will.
"Jesus loves the little children,
All the children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white
They are precious in his sight.
Jesus loves the little children of the world."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
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Today i forgive the shooter. . . . and Thank him.
well Blu, I can never forgive or thank, the killer
so I guess you have more compassion than I
good on you, I guess
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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um, guys?
the killer is dead
he killed himself when his spree was over
he ain't thinking of anything now
and no money will be spent on him in a prison cell
fine by me
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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Heaven and hell may or may not exist.
However, Adam Lanza proved yesterday that demons do in fact roam the earth.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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Well, back from shooting my evil black rifle in preparation for the armed insurrection. LOL
Some of you guys are really living the dream (or more like living in a dream).
But that is the beauty of it. YOU GET TO. When the criminal roams your neighborhood looking for prey he doesn't know who is ready to give him a reception that includes a muzzle inspection.
Unless of course you want to take TGT's advice.
When 33 states passed "shall issue" CCW license laws and criminals didn't know who was packing heat, then it must have been by sheer coincidence that armed crime happened to drop in all 33 states.
There couldn't even be a CASUAL link (even though criminals rarely dress up).
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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The multiple shots to each victim pretty clearly indicates a high death count among small children was desired and furthermore it was intended we all might be revolted by this to an extreme.
We should be.
Has there ever been a societal problem successfully resolved by taking one single action? Generally you have to take a number of actions in different areas so as to squeeze down the part of phase space giving rise to the problem.
Those opposing action of any kind to reduce the general availability of weapons ignore the nature of the problem we face and should lose fitness in determining the upcoming response.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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Anyone tell me why the US State with the most restrictive gun laws is also the state
with the least number of handgun deaths?
this does not seem to be just a coincidence
anyone?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
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Democracy is two rapists debating the definition of consent with a woman.
A republic provides her the protection of the law.
The second amendment, a gun to defend herself with if the law fails.
The second amendment exists to make the minority dangerous enough to the mob be respected.
Jhedges ilk finds that anathema.
Just like they did in the reconstruction south.
ALL inanimate objects are subject to evil use.
We have a nut, or as described in a preceding post, demon control problem.
How you make the determination that someone presents enough of a danger that separation from the rest of society is justified is possibly an insoluble problem when balanced with the protection of individual rights, but just about every incident like this there were plenty of signs that the individual presented a clear and present danger and was not dealt with in an effective manner.
Evil is as pervasive a force as gravity.
Hindsight is always clear.
So also is the desire for a trite solution by some.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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Norton, my weegee board is on the fritz. Maybe you could just fill in the blanks your "stats" used.
and now, a few anti-semitic thoughts;....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
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BLUEBLOCR
^^^
A TRUE Christian with a HEART...
You and Cosmic dude...
Don't personally know many others...
Really, Locker??? You sh#t on God and Christianity in this thread and now you choose to suck up??
WTF, bro?>
God did allow this to happen. Know why? People like you. God is trying to show us what happens when we walk away from him, like the Israelites did so long ago.
God sees the truth and waits.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
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no wingnut hysteria
It was the wingnuts that released the FBI stats, so I guess you must be right.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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F*#ked -up.................
One way or another, one way or another, one way or another....this darkness got to give.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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Democracy is two rapists debating the definition of consent with a woman.
Could you please explain your point here?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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Why is Bluering blaming Locker for yesterday's massacre?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
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Locker, fair enough.
And God is NOT omnipresent. He is omnipowerful.
It's my belief that God had reign over us for a while and 'let us run'. He watches and will judge, but he doesn't interfere with his project.
Angels? That's different. They're out there and they do God's work. They are God's minions. As I said before;
God knows the truth, and waits....
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Blu wrote: God did allow this to happen. Know why? People like you. God is trying to show us what happens when we walk away from him, like the Israelites did so long ago.
Another christian retard trying to make God as f*#k up as them.
You are one sick puppy.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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"God did allow this to happen. Know why? People like you."...
Are you idiots really going to go this route? Saying I personally blamed Locker for this? Really, leg-humpers???
EDIT:
"Locker, fair enough."...
Now who's...
"Sucking up"...
LOL!!!...
O.k., f*#k you, then!!! Does that make me more consistent!!!!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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A continuation of a previous quoted post.
If I were the media, I'd allow myself to get very personal in publishing accounts of these guys. Personal, and nasty.
And not only is this a bit of a public service, but, as I said, this is much more relevant to the actual reasons for his crime than this puffed-up faux-heroic claimed motivations. The maniac in Colorado did not shoot up a theater because of Batman, and to even say that credits his self-conception as true and puffs up his fantasy connection to Batman.
No, the maniac in Colorado shot up the theater because he was a pathetic weakling unloved by women and incapable of satisfying them and so retreated into a twisted babydick world of power fantasy.
Same thing with this guy.
I'm going to go against my political team, here-- although conservatives often say "Label evil as what it is, Evil, and leave therapy and psychology out of it," I'm going to say No, not in these instances. Because Evil (notice the capital letter E) is powerful in these sad losers' imaginations, and they want to be called the Big Scary Man, the Shadow That Menaces At Midnight.
For an impotent, weak, ineffectual man, that is an attractive fantasy.
What they do not want and could not abide is an accurate assessment of their psychology, their physical stature and shortcomings, their ability to succeed in work or school, their loser history with women, and so on.
To the average people, the idea of being called Evil is bracing and restraining. Not to these fellers. All of these bizarre murders are motivated, at root, by the psychology of utter failure. These are flop-sweat murders, sexual panic murders, too weak to carry on murders. Reporting them as such would not only provide at least as small disincentive to the Power Fantasy losers who commit them, but would actually be much, much closer to the truth than "Heavy Metal poisoned his mind."
No, being the runt who no one loved all his life poisoned his mind. Heavy Metal was just his escape from that. Or Batman, or video games, or Jared Laugher's Conspiracy By Manipulation of Grammar, etc. Promoting the Batman/Heavy Metal angle takes the lunatic's diagnosis of himself as credible.
It's not.
There's a Pink Floyd song that mentions a sentence of being exposed before your peers. Let's strip the Mystery away from these guys. The Mystery angle is both complimentary (in the only way it matters-- as they assess a compliment) and false. The thoughts of a loser gone lunatic are not particularly mysterious, and not very interesting; they're all basically the same, as FBI profilers can tell you.
So less of that.
These guys are Romanticizing murder and conceiving it as some sort of Blaze of Glory heroic Act III. Everything we do and say should refuse that romanticization. Where they seek to seem big, we should make them small (which, again, is actually on the mark as far as accurately). Where they wish to seem Potent -- capable of inflicting their will on the world -- we should strip them down to what they actually are, impotent in virtually all ways. A little finger pulling a gun they didn't build is the one sad skill they've had any success with.
Let them know that murder will not be an escape from that pitiful truth, but rather a life sentence of being confronted with it.
"Theater:" A commenter "beach" cites an expert diagnosing this sort of crime.
A key word is "theater" -- the psychopath chooses this sort of senseless, large-scale murder for the theatrical element. Obviously there is no "motive" as it is usually understood -- murdering a bunch of kids does not advance his cause (the way murdering a man for his car would get you, temporarily, a car).
He wants to be discussed; he's giving a performance; he wants to move the audience.
The audience shouldn't indulge him by considering him in the terms her prefers.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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Sure, you wanted my source?
States with Strong Gun Laws and Low Rates of Gun Ownership Have Lowest Firearm Death Rates
Washington, DC—States with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death according to a new analysis by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) of 2009 national data (the most recent available) from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.
The analysis reveals that the five states with the lowest per capita gun death rates were Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. Each of these states had a per capita gun death rate far below the national per capita gun death rate of 10.19 per 100,000 for 2009. Each state has strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. By contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death. Ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi. (See rankings below for bottom and top five states. See http://www.vpc.org/fadeathchart12.htm for a ranking of all 50 states.)
VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, “Massachusetts’ low gun death rate stands as proof of how long-term, comprehensive firearms regulation can increase public safety and protect communities and families.”
States with the Five LOWEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates
Massachusetts--Rank: 50; Household Gun Ownership: 12.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.14 per 100,000.
Hawaii--Rank: 49; Household Gun Ownership: 9.7 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.63 per 100,000.
New Jersey--Rank: 48; Household Gun Ownership: 11.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.72 per 100,000.
New York--Rank: 47; Household Gun Ownership: 18.1 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.90 per 100,000.
Connecticut--Rank: 46; Household Gun Ownership: 16.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.92 per 100,000.
States with the Five HIGHEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates
Louisiana--Rank: 1; Household Gun Ownership: 45.6 percent; Gun Death Rate: 18.03 per 100,000.
Wyoming--Rank: 2; Household Gun Ownership: 62.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.64 per 100,000.
Alabama--Rank: 3; Household Gun Ownership: 57.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.63 per 100,000.
Montana--Rank: 4; Household Gun Ownership: 61.4 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.03 per 100,000.
Mississippi--Rank: 5; Household Gun Ownership: 54.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 16.50 per 100,000.
The VPC defined states with "strong" gun laws as those that add significant state regulation in addition to federal law, such as restricting access to particularly hazardous types of firearms (for example, assault weapons), setting minimum safety standards for firearms and/or requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, and restrictive laws governing the open and concealed carrying of firearms in public. States with "weak" gun laws were defined as those that add little or nothing to federal restrictions and have permissive laws governing the open or concealed carrying of firearms in public. State gun ownership rates were obtained from the September 2005 Pediatrics article “Prevalence of Household Firearms and Firearm-Storage Practices in the 50 States and the District of Columbia: Findings From the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, 2002,” which is the most recent comprehensive data available on state gun ownership.http://www.vpc.org/press/1204death.htm
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Please explain what, "People like you" means/implies...
I will. It's not you personally. It's people "like" you...
We, as a society or culture, have chosen to remove God from schools and other public events for fear fear of "offending" a small minority of very loud people.
We Christians are perceived as weak because we are peaceful and we have capitulated to these lesser, rather loud voices who constantly tear away at our Christian foundations.
They can try to do that. It's legal.
But you can f*#king mark my words. We will win this fight. You know why? We struggle for God and the truth.
Once we walked away from Christ and God, we walked towards evil, we allowed evil into our lives and classrooms.
Evil is here, but so is God.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
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The "tyranny of the majority" was a major issue with the founders, the reason for a three way divided government and that discussion extended to the second amendment.
In fact it's the reason for the entire Bill of Rights.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
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Bluering = scary christian man.
EDIT: angry christian man.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
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Cheers, Locker.
All I'm saying is that every bad thing that happens isn't because God wanted it to. It's because his children are DOING SH#T WRONG!!!
We suffer together. Or we can rejoice together. God left us to our own devices. Quite literally.
But I have been praying for those poor families in Newtown. Imagine, they have Xmas gifts under their trees for those dead children.
I pray....God comfort those families and bless the dead.
EDIT:
Bluering = scary christian man.
Thank you.
EDIT: angry christian man.
Yeah, and your point is what, as#@&%e????
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
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Just did the math on the stats provided by Norton and found an amazing positive coorelation.
The five States with the worst records for gun related deaths had 4 plus times as many guns per capita and were an equal 4 plus times higher in per capita deaths than the five States with the best records.
Also note the correlation in the voting in the last election.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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So Donini thinks if we "take guns away from law-abiding citizens" we will have a safer society?
Take all the guns away is your serious solution?
EDIT: If this idiot kid's idiot mom took him to a climbing gym rather than a shooting range, taught him how to work her gri-gri rather than her AR-15:
20 first graders would have been allowed to live their lives.
6 teachers have been allowed to teach.
He could red-point some plastic 5.13, she could go on the web and spray about it.
Instead, they are all dead. Glory to the Gun God.
You make a good point in a weird way. This young man needed more attention and social skills. He needed friends to guide him.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
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How many in Mexico?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
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Bluering, please work on your reading comprehension, I said nothing about taking guns away. I did provide some stats that would make most reasonable people think that some form of gun control was in order.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
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Hey, lets play games with statistics some more;
over 400,000 class III weapons (select fire, full auto, etc.) in private ownership.
Only one has been used by a person convicted of a felony for using it.
It was homicide.
He was a cop.
BTW ekat, one of the victims was a 6 year old from Utah named Emily Parker.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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Jim wrote: Bluering, please work on your reading comprehension
Pretty hard when you are a raging drunk when posting here.
Joe, Norton and other...please don't think you will get anywhere with these flat earthers by posting real data disproving their points...it didn't work during the election and it is not going to work now.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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over 400,000 class III weapons (select fire, full auto, etc.) in private ownership.
And they have strong gun control laws concerning them.
Thanks for proving the effectiveness of gun control laws.
BTW, England still allows hunting with guns.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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Define gun control.
How can you have "strong gun control laws" that allow machine gun ownership?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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Really?
lmao
All laws relating the possession, registration, transfer, purchase, manufacturing of guns.
Transferring machine guns requires ATF approval. No new machine guns allowed either. I'd call that strict gun control.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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Bwa ha ha.
It is because I am not brave enough to post a sign outside my home that tells people it is a gun free zone.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
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Nice post, eKat.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news.
Dave Kos and philo: "wounded" vs. "dead"...I wouldn't draw a distinction there. Each of the perpetrators injured numerous individuals expressing violent rage (yes, many fatally, I acknowledge that). My point was more that the aggression would have been acted out, regardless of the method employed.
Brandon: I really liked your earlier post.
Donald T.: I don't disagree that prescription psychiatric drugs may be the cause of certain manic, aggressive, or other behavior. However, in the cases that you've cited, there were pre-existing mental illnesses. Perhaps it is a problem of how mental illnesses are diagnosed and treated, i.e., for specific disorders, prescribing a drug that raises levels of certain neurotransmitters is precisely the wrong course of action. I don't know whether this is a problem on the part of drug manufacturers or on the part of the medical field simply not yet having developed ways of more accurately determining a particular individual's chemical imbalance.
Having had the gamut of prescription antidepressants thrown at me over the course of 20 years to treat "depression", none of which worked and one of which made me so numb I had absolutely no ability to feel any emotion, I know first-hand how much of the treatment of "mental illness" is a guessing game. Ultimately, I spent 20 years being treated for something I didn't actually have (i.e., a mental illness)...I have celiac disease.
I don't know that there is a particular correlation between mass killings and medications; if there is, I hope that this is being researched. Far more people were institutionalized (frequently, for life) before the drugs came along; perhaps it is the availability of the drugs and the belief that they actually "treat" mental illness that enables more pathological personalities to remain outside of treatment facilities. As a society, we also used to spend our lives predominantly outdoors, engaged in physical activity, which (at least in my experience) is a highly effective de-stressor.
To no one in particular:
Lynne's views are just as valid as anyone else's on this forum, and I don't think it was necessary to summarily dispense of her views. Expressing compassion may not change what happened, but that doesn't mean that it isn't every bit as valid as any other perspective on what should be done going forward.
My experience in the last 10 months has been to be on the receiving end of more compassion than I ever could have imagined. It's made a huge difference in my grieving process and my life. I am grateful for everyone who has taken a few minutes, a few hours and even days out of their lives to help me come to terms with loss and to begin to heal.
Compassion (and the lack thereof) plays a huge role in our society. Failing to recognize this, I believe, is a fatal flaw in any argument about what we should do as a society going forward...IMHO.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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God is trying to show us what happens when we walk away from him
So this is your version of god?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ausPKEMVk0
And if your god is omnipotent, then why can't it fix the brains of people like this guy so he doesn't hurt others? Or failing that, how about bring the dead back to life as an answer to the millions of prayers being said all over the world for these kids?
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Dover
Trad climber
New England
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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Define gun control
How about no f*#kin' guns, period.
Either that or arm the grammar school teachers.
It is time to just get rid of the god damned guns.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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jghedge
I feel sorry for you.
The thing that makes me a real man is between my ears not my legs.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
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It's rather unrelated, but a few days before I left NY, I heard shots from a handgun rapidly being fired near where I lived. Being that I was acting as caretaker of an area on a nature preserve that is well used by families for hiking and picnicking, I raced down to find out what was going on.
It turned out that a guy had fired a semi-automatic pistol into the ravine of Split Rock, a waterfall section with rock walls on either side, and rock embankments. Lots of ricochet potential.
The man who fired those shots was actually with his family, who lied to me about the source of the gunfire in order to protect their patriarch.
The *problem* with this was that the idiot...errr, gunman, *hadn't realized* that others might be around(even though he parked in a lot with about 10 other cars) and happened to fire the thing when a kid near about 6 years old happened to be walking a few feet behind him.
The only reason I was able to ascertain this person was the gun firer was that the father of the child identified him personally, even as the gunman boldface lied to me. I insisted on getting identification, a request which was initially denied. They man and his family were extremely uncooperative, and accused me of harassing them. And then they tried to simply walk away, ignoring me.
It was only when I said "I will follow you. I have nothing else to do and I can follow you for hours. I will follow you to your car, and then call the police with the plate number. Would you like to do it that way, or would you like to do it the easy way."
The man with the gun then handed me a piece of identification. It was - wait for it - a Concealed Carry Permit.
This man, and his family, simply did NOT understand why it was an issue that he was firing that gun in that manner. I am sure they to this day do not understand what the issue was, and are pissed off at me for not minding my own business. Because the police were called, and the man arrested. One count of Endangering the Welfare of a Child, and one count Wreckless Endangerment. I can only HOPE those records go to whatever agency manages CC permits, and that such an arrest means bye bye to the permit which allowed a drunk, arrogant human his right to bear arms.
I know this guy is not the norm, but at least in this one case, a Concealed Carry Permit was provided to a guy who hadn't the sense to manage it properly. He was a shining example of a responsible gun owner's worst nightmare. How IS it, if our laws are adequate, that a person like this slips through the cracks? What liberty are we demanding, that allows a person like this the opportunity to do what he did that day?
I am not of the belief all guns should be banned in this country. I simply am not, and it will be noticed there is just one poster on this thread who feels that way. MOST simply feel it has become TOO easy for people who actually AREN'T stable to purchase and brandish these guns.
I don't have the answer, don;t pretend to. But it was pretty f*#king frightening to hear these gunshots, know they were from a semiautomatic weapon, hear arguing voices(which turned out to be the dad yelling at the guy) and taking the time to stop and ask myself what I should do. And then decide to go down there. I guess it was my gut feeling that it was not a homicidal maniac(at least that day - who knows? I can easily imagine in a year reading that guy doing something much more horrible, and saying "wow - there were clues..."
But how would you all feel if about 2 months ago, instead of it being what I just posted, it was someone making a post that Happiegrrrl got shot by a maniac wacko in a picnic area, along with 6 or so others, 2 of whom were children?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
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The FEAR is strong
the FEAR that any attempt at conversion relating to "doing something" about senseless gun violence means "you better not take MY guns away"
It's all about ME
You can read it in every one of "their" posts, FEAR
The Slippery Slope argument: If you talk about some regulation then it means that next week you will come for MY GUNS
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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35 gun-related deaths in the UK last year
12,000 in the US
Yeah, but if you adjust for population differences you get vastly different number. The projection would show close to 181 deaths in the UK. Put that in your peace pipe and smoke it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
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The thing that makes me a real man is between my ears not my legs.
You carry your gun between your ears?
(Sorry Ron, but if you're going to lob easy ones right over the plate, you can't blame people for swinging)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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Different cultures.
They are far more polite in the UK.
They even have their own word for their well mannered lining ups.
And their hands are too greasy from fish and chips to manipulate complicated devices.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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I think Russ was yankin yer chain
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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No, you cannot blame tools on the root cause of these killings.
What changed in the past 20-30 years that is causing young men to kill large numbers of RANDOM people?
That's the question.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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^^^^^
Chemtrails, obviously.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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Americans are f*#ked up and out of touch with reality...They lack imagination and think shooting little kids is in vogue...Look at all the attention it draws....Copy cat crimes...Monkey see , Monkey do...The apple doesn't fall far from the tree....Instead of gun control , we should make Americans pass a test before they earn the right to propogate.....We have drivers test but we never weed out the dumb asses that bare children and wreak havoc on society...but the republicans want less government and more lunatics in their voting base so that won't fly...
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
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the FEAR that any attempt at conversion relating to "doing something" about senseless gun violence means "you better not take MY guns away"
There is a difference between discussing something that potentially actually could make a difference (e.g., intervention earlier than guns entering any picture) and spewing rhetoric.
Because I haven't beaten my chest over amending the gun laws, I get labeled as FEARful? I don't own any guns; therefore, I don't FEAR having them taken away.
I don't FEAR other people NOT having their guns taken away, either.
Throwing labels around doesn't make them stick. Got it?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
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Because I haven't beaten my chest over amending the gun laws, I get labeled as FEARful? I don't own any guns; therefore, I don't FEAR having them taken away.
was I talking about YOU personally?
Did I mention YOU?
NO
Obviously, you need to reread my post for comprehension.
I was talking about people on this thread who reject ANY handgun regulation, AND then show their FEAR by commenting on how important their own guns are to them.
Did YOU say those things?
NO
Well then, I wasn't talking about you, was I?
Stop being so hair trigger defensive, it's not about YOU
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TFSTFU
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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Jghedge, get your head outta your ass. You can't see that Russ did make a valid point cause you just talk without thinking. TFSTFU
TFSTFU
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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we should make Americans pass a test before they earn the right to propogate Unbelievably simplistic. Haven't you ever seen families where there are productive kids and then one that seems to be the "bad seed"? It's way complex....like you could take an SAT to become a parent? Blame the parents, blame he grandparents, keep on going back...if only it were so simple..
Susan
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TFSTFU
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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Idiocracy is a great movie and a true story.
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Dover
Trad climber
New England
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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We have drivers test but we never weed out the dumb asses that bare children and wreak havoc on society...
You would be the first one weeded out for poor grammar, rotten punctuation, misspelling, and inappropriate word usage -- you be a dumb ass, babe.
Do you carry a gun?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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So you can have people being raised by their video games, with images of death and destruction that they end up living out
You know, I was raised on video games, and violence, and Tarantino movies. All of it. Since I was a kid.
I played Doom when I was in Grade school, Duke Nukem in Middle school, Unreal Tournament and Quake in High school. I like to climb, and am outdoors a lot now, but then it was only rarely in passing - every kid I grew up with, and played with, were hard core gamers. Six of those kids have children of their own and are active in their own church ministry.
I had guns, too - I had BB and Pellet guns and toy samurai swords, and anything else a geeky kid would think is cool. I liked Maralyn Manson, Tool... and so did most of my school.
I was in 10th grade when Columbine happened. It seemed crazy at the time, but after Helix I kind of thought it was a 'thing'. I remember doing drills in case of it happening. I remember DARE class, and having grown-ups tell me that random people offer me heroin on the street and this is how drugs get introduced to people. I remember saluting a flag every morning when I really wanted to do pretty much anything else. A lot of this stuff seemed like stupid grown-up stuff that I'll understand later.
What I'm getting at is this - it isn't video games, it isn't music, I know you're all scared to lose your kids (I was one of them) - it isn't anything you can say or do to these kids that do this. You just have to listen to them. For once.
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TFSTFU
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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.We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God, we can't pray in public, we strip all evidence of God from our culture, and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God.
If I was religious I'd pray for you. How many people put god before reason during the crusades? The middle east today is a holy war, still. Wise up.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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"What changed in the past 20-30 years that is causing young men to kill large numbers of RANDOM people? "
The refusal to take action against it, and the lack of gun laws that enable it.
You're thinking too simplistically although I understand why. The frustration after such a horrendous event will do that to anyone. We are all frustrated and upset.
You cannot legislate away the end result of apparent psychotic rage by young men with above-average intelligence and means. There were 700 little kids in that school on Friday. We're lucky he "only" chose a firearm. As horrible as that is, 300 caskets would be even worse. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with 5 or more more effective methods to kill groups of unarmed civilians packed into small enclosed areas.
Without addressing and fixing what is recently triggering these men, laws are of zero consequence.
HIPAA and privacy laws be damned for these killers. We need to understand the medical and mental condition of these killers from cradle to grave. Every drug, every diagnoses, every juvenile offense, etc... We need to find if there is a common thread. I've got my money on the recent crop of head meds.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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The bottom line may just be this:
The sum total of our culture adds up to this sort of thing happening once in awhile and there's nothing we can really do about it that our culture would actually have the will to do (outlaw guns, way less violence in movies and games, develop a whole better culture of relating to kids, particularly in single parent families) Even those intense solutions might only slow things down.
We're just going to have to live with a tragedy now and then. Terrorists will strike now and then, even (or especially) if we dominate the whole world militarily. Some whacko is going to go ballistic now and then, and they'll find a way to take a bunch of people with them
Just life sadly
Peace
Karl
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
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I'd usually agree with you Karl... But something feels different. That kid who charged into that Oregon mall in a hockey mask seemed so Goddamn "normal" and happy a few weeks before. It really bugged me.
I hope we're not on the cusp of something much worse.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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Norton: I don't believe that making changes to the gun laws on the Federal or even State level will make any difference. This is not a belief derived from fear of infringement of my Constitutional rights or that guns will become less available.
People that are unstable and intent on inflicting pain on others will do so regardless of any laws in effect.
I view what happened as a problem that needs to be addressed by every one of us, beginning with being compassionate and having the courage to speak up when something is wrong.
Personal integrity and responsibility aren't things that can or should be legislated.
I respect our difference of opinion, and objected simply to your approach.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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It seems critical thinking skills have taken a hiatus... to be expected in a time like this.
Inanimate objects do not and cannot induce suicidal/homicidal rage. They also have not changed. You could walk into a gun store 50 some years ago and buy a machine gun off the shelf. Did multiple 20-somethings go execute strangers in public with such tools?
We also need to separate "Gun violence" (i.e. robberies/gang wars/etc) with the recent crop of "Random Mass Killings". I believe they are seperate issues.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
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I wonder if any of these shooters could tell you what the second ammendment is, and if they can't, would the above arguments hold water?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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Inanimate objects do not and cannot induce suicidal/homicidal rage
I know you are referring to guns
but those little inanimate pills can sure induce suicide or murderous rage
as can PCP, Meth, Heroin, etc
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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So far, the reasons given in this thread for the massacre are:
Lax gun laws
Video games
Lack of faith in a higher power
The 'Media'
'Lack of proper social structure'
The shooter was American
Lack of proper mental health services
'Lack of moral responsibility etc...etc...etc...
The list goes on and on.
This need to 'blame' something or someone for such an act seems futile to me.
I don't want to rationalize this monstrous act. There is no 'reason' for this behavior.
These crimes will continue whether or not we outlaw guns, remove violence in cinema, TV and video games or everyone believes in the same 'god'.
It would not change a thing. People will slaughter others at will.
Be prepared to take care of yourself and others you care for, that's the best you can do.
We are a species riddled with faults and anomalies. The monsters that carry out these crimes will always be among us. Fear them or be prepared to challenge them.
When Gilles de Rais slaughtered hundreds of children, there were no video games, semi-automatic weapons or 'media'. Child/serial killers have always been here and are among us now. It is a fact of life.
These killers are here. They need to be identified and dealt with.
We should be on alert and on the hunt for them.
Unfortunately, we won't find them all and some will continue on their path of destruction.
These killers do not deserve our mercy or forgiveness. They truly are the enemy.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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Did the guy know what the second amendment was?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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So Karl,
Would the "that's just life" argument have the same result in logic in this situation if the bonehead shooting wasn't able to shoot ?
America is intellectually dysfunctional about guns and their consequences based on an emotional attachment to an ideal that concerned political tyranny originally. It has transformed into a right to kill your neighbor if they make you feel awkward.
Yip, the logic is that Americans don't have the will to do any changes extreme enough to change the situation. (not saying that's good or bad) so like "this modern life" suggests above, it's a done deal.
The emotions over this incident dissipate long before significant changes can be put into law.
The right to own guns pretty freely is as entrenched in this country just as unquestioning acceptance of a vast unneeded military budget. Right not we're talking about screwing with seniors rather than raise taxes on the rich or cutting military spending. Gun control is like that too, like questioning an argument that's already settled, like it or not
peace
karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Just poked back in for shlts and giggles.
Norton, you've been around here longer, but Lilabiene is ST royalty and your rudeness a couple pages back was a poor show for us indeed.
You can do better.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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I do agree that the media should self-police by NOT showing the killer's photo and repeating his name.
The "making it about the victims" idea is a proactive and wise.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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Yeah, I guess shlts and giggles was a poor choice of words.
Emilie was a cute kid, should've lived much longer.
The giggles part is over the idealists who seem to really believe that if they pass a law then somehow they can get the genie back into the bottle.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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Anders,
we HAVE laws.
We just don't enforce them effectively.
I'd love to hang around and debate some more, but I have a life, you know!
I gotta get down to the bunker with another load of canned donkey meat and wag bags, and then mix up another batch of C4.
Then I have to mount reactive armor on my 4X4 before coming back to convert a black with devious perfidy.
Then I gotta load all the drum magazines. Sheesh, that's gonna take half the night!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
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One thing that doesn't often come up in the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument is that without a gun it's really hard to kill someone
The largest school killing a US history was in 1927 in Michigan. It was done with dynamite and pyrotol. 45 people including 38 children were killed.
Psychopaths are violent people who have no conscience, and if such a person is bent on mayhem they will do their best to find a way. Think Timothy McVeigh, Theodore Kaczynski, Ted Bundy... Remember the Church bombings in the 1960's in the deep south. Evil men with no sense of remorse, no conscience, these people are the problem.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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Evil men with no sense of remorse, no conscience, these people are the problem.
Any thoughts on the solution?
Is there any hope that the actions of these people can be mitigated somehow?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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whether you agree or not, the specific argument here is whether strict GUN CONTROL may reduce massacres or random gun violence by, say, 15% to 35%
yes, that does seem to definitely be the case in other countries that try it
those grouping of humans made the choice to sacrifice some personal gun "liberties" so that their society as a whole would be made better, safer
America seems to be very different in that regard
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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I don't really agree with the logic of the article below; correlation isn't causation. But still correlation is interesting (I know, its not scientific. cherry picks example etc). Personally I come from a liberal anti-gun family, and my own political tendencies are somewhere in the liberal to radical left spectrum. And I have never owned or even shot a gun in my life (unless you include BB guns). But I have to admit, with recent changes in US laws I am less willing to support gun control. Posse Comitatus effectively repealed (US Military can be brought home and turned on US citizens.) Habeous Corpus reneged (no right trial nor to face one's accuser in court of law), US citizenship itself can be denied if you give donations to an organization deemed "terrorist" by the state department. on and on. School shootings are horrible, but the deaths aren't in the 10s of millions. Personally I'm more afraid of an out-of-control government then I am of angry disturbed kids getting guns. Its a question of the scale of the evil.
anyway, here is one (right-wing nut's) argument. take if for what you will
"Gun control. A Brief history!
by Odinsown Posted July 29, 2012
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. -----------------------------Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.. ------------------------------You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'. During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun -control message to all of your friends. The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental. SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!"
from http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/gun-control-a-brief-history/question-2835069/
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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rockermike, every one of those examples in those countries involved the government killing its own people, not the people killing each other
thus, it is apples to oranges, if that is the supporting argument for "no gun control"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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Jim wrote: Bluering, please work on your reading comprehension
Pretty hard when you are a raging drunk when posting here.
Joe, Norton and other...please don't think you will get anywhere with these flat earthers by posting real data disproving their points...it didn't work during the election and it is not going to work now.
O.k., so I'm relegated to "drunk" status. Fine. Believe what you will. Guns are the problem, not people meaning to do harm to others....
Idiots.
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coppertone
Trad climber
CT
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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I have not read the entire thread but as a Newtown resident and a climber I know the power of both our community here in Newtown as well as the climbing community. I have seen the climbing community pull together many times before to help those in need. I don't care to discuss or debate any of the politics right now, but what I can say is that we are all beyond sad and distraught right now, but we will band together as a community, help our neighbors try to cope with this and continue to be an amazing place live and raise a family. If anyone out there is looking to help some of the families you see some the links that I am posting below.
http://newtown.patch.com/articles/ways-to-help-sandy-hook
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfTheEngelFamilyFund
https://www.facebook.com/EmilieParkerFund
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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(re: norton's comment above)
no, that's not my point. The gun control argument is that if individuals don't have access to guns, we won't have as many mass killings (true enough, I agree). But the other side of the argument, and I find a valid one, is that "we the people" need guns to defend ourselves from an out of control government. Of course where you come down on this argument probably has to do with your judgment of how benign the government is. I personally am finding it less and less credible to pretend the government is basically good.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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I'm not in favor of any gun control.
All rope guns should have total unrestricted rein!
Ooops .... wrong thread .... ?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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you folks all need to realize that you are being played as suckers by a power hungry cadre that will stop at nothing to create complete control of a slavemaster society
the primary barrier to their goal of complete domination of society is a well-armed private citizenry
they will stop at no level of atrocities and social manipulation to attain their goals of complete power over society
if you think all these atrocities are actions by independent psychos, you are just unaware of how hard this cadre has worked during and after WWII to develop mind control technologies
you had better stop being horrified only by these atrocities and start being horrified by the motives and sick morality of the cadre manipulating our society with a bottomless black budget of taxpayer funds
these actions will continue to escalate until they succeed, including major terrorists acts or even a phony space alien invasion
or until they are outed
please don't just accept or reject what i am saying
i will gain absolutely no pleasure from eventually being able to tell you that i told you so
we are in the middle of the moment of truth where the bull notices the difference between the red cape and the matador...just before the matador kills him
please just do your homework before it is too late
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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Someone explain to me why 100 million guns would not be enough? That's my target number to reduce non-military, private possession to.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Tom, with that single post, I have quite unfortunately just lost all respect for you. You reveal yourself to be just another self-deluded Alex Jones whack job - really astounding to the point of being unbelievable. Just so incredibly sad. Please resume your meds before it's too late.
P. S. Even sadder still to hear you believe that yet all your income comes from the "cadre" and has all along. Next you'll be telling us the moon landings were all a hoax. Again, sad beyond all measure.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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Connecticut is not a hotbed of NRA members. There was a gun club down the street from me, and gunfire from target shooting is a sound I am familiar with. Our neighbor hunted, and we would be beneficiaries of venison.
I don't equate gun ownership with violence in all settings. In the city, they scare me. In a house with small children, they scare me. I refused to allow my husband to have a gun in the house while the children were living with us. Given where we live now, I would not object today. Most people in my area have guns. Hunting is a huge part of the culture here. Most people are very careful and take handling of weapons very seriously. I don't feel unsafe - except at dawn or dusk when not wearing blaze orange and in the forest from labor Day through Christmas.
My hometown was the site of the largest mass murder in the history of the state of CT prior to yesterday. No gun was involved. The weapon was a tire iron. The victims were a woman and 8 children. The murderer was a foster brother to the woman's husband. He set fire to the house after he was done killing the family. I will never forget that - or seeing him walking down the road in the early morning hours, near that house burning. I will never forget the media sticking their cameras into the church windows to get the video of those small caskets in our church.
I hate to see the victims of crimes being used as posters for the all gun or no gun lobbies. We can all agree that this was a tragedy.
Do we eliminate liquor which reduces inhibitions and seems to be related to stupid activity? We tried that, and it failed. In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.
Is there room for a ban on certain types of weapons? Probably. Would that prevent any fatalities? I don't think so. Insane people determined to hurt others will find a way to do so. But I am willing to compromise.
On Wednesday a distinguished Senator from CT retired, virtually alone on the Senate floor. Why? He had become a pariah to his party because of his willingness to work across party lines. Compromise for the common good has become nearly extinct. People fear giving an inch and losing a mile. So our society has become so polarized and stuck in self defeating gridlock.
None of this discussion changes the carnage in Sandy Hook Elementary School. I hope President Obama learns that he is in Newtown and not Newton when he arrives on Sunday. I am completely pessimistic about the nature of political discourse going forward. Remember all those cries for toning done the harshness after Gabbi Gifford was shot. I still don't see any leadership towards a positive, cooperative approach to solving our problems. It is still threats, ultimatums, posturing and name calling.
Time keeps ticking away. Time to hug the kids again and try to set an example of how to conduct oneself in a world where bad behavior owns the news.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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i am not posting here to gain or lose anyone's respect
i am no great fan of lethal weaponry and sincerely believe that the greatest warrior is the last person to pick up a weapon
i am more than willing to be proven wrong or to lose someone's respect or much worse
but i am afraid to remain silent in the face of what i see happening
please do your own homework
please prove me right or prove me wrong
i would honestly like nothing better in life than to be proven wrong about this
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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I am what I am and totally consistent and transparent in my posts. Let the chips fall where they will, I have no dependency on ST.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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There's this infamous Karl Rove quote.
“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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Tom, sadly, proving you wrong is no different than proving belief in the tooth fairy is wrong. I know just as much about the government as you and more about the military and intelligence services. You are ranting. No further "homework" is necessary. Glad to see you finally all the way out of the closet after several years of beating around the paranormal bush.
I'm sure Alex Jones could use a 'science' advisor - a better candidate I couldn't imagine. Tragic still on top of the tragedy at hand.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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AND THE BLACK MARKET WILL STILL SUPPLY CRIMINALS WITH PLENTY OF GUNS
It isn't the "criminals" you're talking about that massacre twenty children.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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Alex Jones is a nut case and Tom C is not affilaited in any way to that screwball Joe.
You're projecting bullsh!t again.
It's all so subtle it's going right over the top of your so called know it all head ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:21am PT
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No Werner, it is Tom who is projecting complete and utter bullsh#t and his tract is absolutely no different than what Jones is putting out. Are you now as well stating you believe the killing of these children was part of a conspiracy? A simple yes or no will suffice.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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I wish there was more emphasis in the discussion on the cultural aspect to violence. What is in U.S. social order or currents of thought that leads individuals to find triumph in the infamy of killing innocents?
Yes, fewer guns would translate to fewer homicides.
But homicide rate doesn't correlate that well with gun ownership worldwide. The U.S. has eleven times as many firearms per capita in comparison to Brazil...yet Brazil has six times the firearm homicide rate.
(U.S.: 88.8 firearms per 100residents...2.98 homicides per 100,000 per year...........Brazil: 8 guns per 100 residents...18.1 homicides per 100.000 residents per year)
And a significant number of nations in the Western Hemisphere have worse or similar statistics.
Why do the citizens of several European countries with significant gun ownership...seldom take up arms against their neighbor while gratuitous, needless murder seems almost routine, here? Social inequity and strife, and gun numbers simply do not account for these callous, brazen attacks on innocents.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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Tom, with that single post, I have quite unfortunately just lost all respect for you. You reveal yourself to be just another self-deluded Alex Jones whack job - really astounding to the point of being unbelievable.
+1
Tom, you must have been hanging around Bridwell
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:38am PT
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Norton:
I repeat:
I respect our difference of opinion, and objected simply to your approach.
If you call that being offended, I'm mightily surprised. But you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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Very thoughtful and thought provoking point Jennie. I hope some of the folks on this thread think about those questions and are willing to entertain thinking and posting about them.
For the record, I'm a country boy who owns a few shotguns, likes to shoot with my kids a couple times a year, and enjoys shooting a quail or three and having my wife cook 'em with some ginger and teriyaki every now and then.
I'm not a fan of fully auto, assault or even handguns really.
But I agree there's a bigger issue than guns and american gun control here. Those that want to argue gun control are definitely missing the big picture. But I'll stay out of that one, since people don't want to listen or compromise on that one really, on both sides.
Here's an interesting stat though. This needs to be in everybody's reason box when dealing with this argument.
Does this surprise any of you? Or change your frame of reference?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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Are you now as well stating you believe the killing of these children was part of a conspiracy?
Nope.
That's why I said "its so subtle it's going right over the top of your head ...."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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Werner, there is no aspect of it which is "subtle" if any of it is serious. If it's not serious, then it's in just incredibly bad taste and a matter of poor judgment.
micronut, again, what is the rationale for claiming 100 million guns wouldn't be enough.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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Healyje,
I'm not sure what you're referring to. I'll try to read up thread and reply.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:00am PT
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What has to happen in America is for a total change towards humanity to occur. For individuals to STOP with the violent video games, STOP going to movies that glorify violence, and STOP their global hegemony.
well said Tami.
unfortunately this country worships the vigilante.
people in this country, and on this forum think they are living in the 1800s.
I have lived in the big city for fifty eight years. I have only been robbed(for $10) one time. A gun would not have done me any good. I was out numbered 10 to 1. If I had a gun, was I supposed to shoot all of them... for $10?
jeeze people, guns are not a necessity. . . . . .for hunting people or animals
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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i know very little about this shooting incident
i do know something about mind control and patterns of social manipulation
being directly associated with the federal government and 'intelligence community' isn't going to provide enlightenment on those subjects
no more than working at NASA is going to teach anything about USAF space programs and various related subjects of interest
i like to know the truth about things, although sometimes it is a privilege not to know
because if you know about something then you have some responsibilities involved
unfortunately the more dangerous and discreditable the truth, the more effort gets put into obfuscating, hiding and covering it up
in spite of all coverups, the truth sends out concentric rings of influence that can be examined...people in the intelligence community know that such patterns can leak even the best concealed secrets
that is why we are subjected to so much clever disinformation
if the truth is leaking, then there will be lots of similar disinformation also leaked...books, movies, myths, similar irrelevant events, etc...
that's why i beg you to do your own homework rather than believe anything i say
my basic theory about such things is that eventually the truth becomes known
i do my best, such as it is, to be pretty sure about something before voicing an opinion
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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That's the third world,
With all merited respect to your contributions in this discussion, Mr Hedge...a third-world country refers to a nation with frail political structure and economy, Brazil is far from falling into such classification. It's one of the world's well-grounded democracies and the eigth economy on the planet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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Again, complete tripe - you've been staring at the space between the 0s and 1s too long.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:19am PT
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I have lived in the big city for fifty eight years. I have only been robbed(for $10) one time.
Having a gun saved my skin a long time ago in rural Minnesota. It was not a robbery, and it was not in the 1800's but more like 1973.
I would never carry a gun in the city, even if it were legal which it is not. Where a gun can be invaluable for personal defense is in out of the way places where there is no chance of law enforcement support. Unlike Europe and UK, there are still a lot of really remote places out there in the US.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:25am PT
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This becoming a "discussion" in any way is so dis-heartening.
Are you all so emotionally disconnected that this conversation seems OK to you.
Just Wow. I have learned a lot about on-line personas from this thread.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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There is nothing wrong with discussing this atrocity and it's impact.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:36am PT
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There you go Tom, Werner - validation just doesn't get better than that. And you folks wonder why, in a world where people just make sh#t up and go with it, that things like this happen.
P.S. NWO, for your purposes, yes, I am a highly-trained, well-paid, disinformation specialist contracting with the government.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:40am PT
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For fuks sake, examine your grief in the real world, with friends, family - real people.
The whole medium of "on-line discussion" about events like this is ironic to me.
This is not a real world, it is a climbing forum. As such, one is not exactly "reaching out to the greater world".
Microcosm wake-up call.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:45am PT
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Just like to take a moment to note that even as the authorities seemed to be careful about what information they released, much of the initial information about the incident has turned out to be wrong
The name of the shooter, the relationship of the shooter's mom to the school, which weapons did the killing, and more
It's always that way, when something goes down, there's a fog about the events.
which makes the whole fuss about Susan Rice's statements about Benghazi seem silly
Peace
Karl
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:56am PT
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The Civil war would PALE in comparison to any attempt to revoke the 2nd amendment. Not even Obama is for more gun controls.
so you would actually kill your fellow citizens so you could keep your guns.
i feel sorry for you
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:01am PT
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You feel fluoride in drinking water is perfectly ok, yet the fact Hitler put it in the drinking water in the concentration camps, doesn't even faze you.
Ding. Ding. We have a winner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Congratulations, NWO.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:10am PT
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If they go through with this, I don't think it's going to work out for them
http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/westboro-baptist-church-members-say-they-will-prot
Less than a day after the tragic shooting in Sandy Hook, Connecticut that claimed the lives of 20 children and six adults, members of the Westboro Baptist Church are already announcing plans to protest during and after President Obama'a visit on Sunday. The hate group is best known for its protest of the funerals of U.S. service members.
“Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment," Shirley Phelps-Roper, a member of the church, tweeted.
Another member of the church, Abigail Ruth Phelps tweeted "I will show this sign to President Obama tomorrow." Jael Holroyd also announced her intentions to protest.
Members of the website Reddit announced their intent to form a silent blockade to counter protest the church.
The White House announced on Saturday that President Obama would travel to Newtown, CT Sunday and meet with the families of the victims of the Sandy Hook Elementary school shootings along with first responders.
They are blaming Obama, Somehow I knew that would happen
http://www.examiner.com/article/westboro-church-plans-to-picket-at-sandy-hook-elementary-school-praising-god
.....Shirley- Phelps Roper a member of the church tweeted this;
“Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment,”
While Margie Phelps one of the founders tweeted this;
"President Beast @BarackObama! Stop the phony tears!You brought this mayhem! STOP MARRYING FAGS! God is not joking! You've brought His wrath."
“Westboro 'God hates Fags' Baptist Church is planning to picket at Sandy Hook, to praise 'God's judgment,'”
The church is known for holding signs saying “Thank God for dead babies” and "God hates fags and loves dead babies"
After Josh Elliot of ABC tweeted this;
"UPDATE: If the horrific numbers hold, this will stand as the 2nd-deadliest school shooting in US history."
Margie responded with;
"One of first states to have fag marriage. #ConnectDots #PicketFunerals MT @JoshElliottABC: Conn.2nd-deadliest school shooting in US history."
Saying that the shooter's mother, "broke his moral" compass and that "fag-marriage" is the reason he shot the children.
She made fun of Obama's statement about the tragedy telling him he was at fault for this;
"President Beast @BarackObama! Stop the phony tears!You brought this mayhem! STOP MARRYING FAGS! God is not joking! You've brought His wrath."
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John M
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:31am PT
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One thing that doesn't often come up in the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument is that without a gun it's really hard to kill someone
The largest school killing a US history was in 1927 in Michigan. It was done with dynamite and pyrotol. 45 people including 38 children were killed.
Psychopaths are violent people who have no conscience, and if such a person is bent on mayhem they will do their best to find a way. Think Timothy McVeigh, Theodore Kaczynski, Ted Bundy... Remember the Church bombings in the 1960's in the deep south. Evil men with no sense of remorse, no conscience, these people are the problem.
Its true that psychopaths ( and yes, I use that term loosely, to me anyone who would do one of these mass murders has some form of pathology ) are difficult to stop, but I believe the point most people who are for more gun control is that making it a bit more difficult would reduce the number who were able to be effective killers and able to kill larger numbers of people. Many people with mental illness have low levels of abilities to see things through. So making it more difficult for them to obtain a deadly weapon would very likely stop them in their tracks or at very least reduce the number of people they are able to kill. They might still try something, but it would be a lot less deadly. As the point was made by the attack in China with the knife.
Are there mentally organized psychopaths who can build bombs or create a gun from auto parts as suggested earlier? yes
But I believe that they are fewer in number then those who might have desires to cause violence, but lack the mental stamina necessary to build a bomb or build a gun.
Dynamite is now not easy to obtain, though it is obtainable and back when that bombing mentioned earlier occurred was very easy to obtain. I'm sure the boys in Columbine would have loved to have dynamite and blasting caps as they are fairly easy to use and very effective. They tried to make bombs, but their bombs were mostly ineffective.
So I do believe that limiting the availability of deadly weapons would slow down some of these people, or at the very least, reduce the numbers killed.
...
None of the above statement means that I am for outlawing all guns. I am not.
( and yes, I know that some of my sentence structure sucks, me brains not working too well right now.. and no.. not because I'm intoxicated in any way )
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:33am PT
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I am not either, I just want to remove whole classes of weapons and reduce the number from 310 million to 100 million and apply way, way more oversight to those.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:43am PT
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Riley you are on a roll. Keep up the good work.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:53am PT
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I fear that for some on this thread this would be the walk-in closet of their dream home.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:24am PT
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Thanks for posting up the Phelps phone list, I will be making some calls while I watch some football. It is funny that one of Phelps offspring is named Barak
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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sanity can't be legislated,
but sane gun control can be...
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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No one's arguing that a homeowner who chooses to have a handgun to protect his family, or a sportsman who shoots at a range, or a hunter who uses guns to legally kill animals, should be kept from gun ownership. But in shielding those Constitutional rights -- which are at risk only in the exaggerations and lies of those opposed to any common-sense gun control -- we've created an untenable situation. Each "worst" tragedy you read about will be outmatched in an unbearable stream of one-upmanship. Eleven of the 20 worst mass shootings in 50 years all over the world have been in the United States. Finland is in second place, with only two.
We don't have to live in a world where going to the mall, or to a movie, or to elementary school might mean we'll be shot and maybe killed along with a number of people. Sure, it's still statistically improbable, but it's hardly unique. People remember where they were when they heard about Columbine. What about Binghamton? Aurora? Virginia Tech? Ft. Hood? Tucson?
We react with initial horror, are told by the NRA that "this isn't the time" to talk about it, and then the national horror movie fades to black. Until the next mass shooting. This time, let's keep it rolling.
http://www.dailycamera.com/editorials/ci_22194907/can-we-talk-we-need-national-discussion-about
One might expect a more extreme opinion from the liberal Boulder Daily Camera, but this is a very reasonable position, and is close to my own belief. I have friends who love traipsing around in the woods like I do, but they choose hunting as their reason for getting them out there. A reasonable position allows for responsible people to do this, but also accepts that there must be some restrictions on guns to at least make it more difficult for the self-destructive psychopath to take out a bunch of kids and teachers right before their imminent suicide.
The NRA's position, and the position of the resident gun nuts on this forum is not reasonable. At some point, the tide will turn after enough innocents are slaughtered. The question is, will the truly responsible gun owners be on the reasonable side of the argument, or will they continue their ridiculous argument that implies having the type of military-style assault weapons used in the CT massacre easily accessible is protected by the 2nd amendment.
As a person that just had to explain to his small children for the second time in six months that a madman just randomly slaughtered a bunch of innocent people, but that they are nonetheless safe, I'm getting closer to the extreme view that guns have no place in our society whatsoever.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:59am PT
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The NRA by sticking to extreme views ( remember the 2012 election ) and refusing to consider compromise is, in the long run, seriously jeopardizing there own members.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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TGT said That's been done in Europe,but these events happen with about the same regularity there.
It's true. About the same number of people are killed by guns in Europe. TGT droppin knowledge. Make sure this is quoted often.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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As Jimmy Breslin said, "In America, violence is loved and respected in all sectors."
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:59am PT
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Question: how many gun owners here are part of a well-regulated militia?
Second question: has anyone here needed guns to secure the frontier from Indians?
Third question: what are you doing to prepare for a British invasion? And no, I am not talking about the Beatles and the Kinks.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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The NRA by sticking to extreme views ( remember the 2012 election ) and refusing to consider compromise is, in the long run, seriously jeopardizing there own members.
The same could be said of the Republican Party, at least the extreme right, which is he majority of the party.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Just wanted to thank Philo, and Riley for saying what needs to be said.
As for me, I'm out.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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It is too late Dirtbag. Ray Davies lives in my cousin's apartment building.
One time he got on the elevator with me and I pretended to whistle Lola absent-mindedly and then looked over at him and traded smiles.
True story, but I'm not gonna say what building or floor.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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Nice
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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It always comes back to the illegals, huh Ron
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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Why didn't you point your finger at his leg and say "Boom" before you traded smiles?
Ray Davies -Victim of Gun Violence
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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Yes Locker,, and note that there ARE NO federal studies on that. In fact it is DIFFICULT to get any figures for this s you must go state by state, city by city. ODD that the FEDS dont seem to want to tally those..Theres crap behind the curtain we arent hearing or seeing.
this explains where you're getting your facts.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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A whole week! What was their weapon of choice? and where were they from?
EDIT: next time try your study somewhere in the midwest
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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Are the "illegals" bringing their guns with them across the border...
or are the getting them here, in the grand US of A???...
either way, you can be sure the guns were manufactured in the USA. The only healthy industries in this great county, weapons manufacturing, prisons, and the military.
I tell you, its the fluoride and 12/21/12.
I would like to know what percentage of the mass-murderers are on some kind of psychotropic drugs? I'll bet 100%.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
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The FBI's numbers are collected for law enforcement purposes. Always have been (started in the 1920s), always will be. Do you know how many people work in that section of the FBI? For some time, there were none!! You know, funding cuts and all. Now there are a handful only. Handful.
The SHR (supplemental homicide reports) numbers are designed to count (and in the 70s additional details were gathered - relationship, circumstance, weapon used) the number of crime so law enforcement had info to more effectively deal with crime.
Reporting those numbers by agencies to the FBI is VOLUNTARY. Agencies do not get funding to do this. Some states now require they agencies to report, but recall that it costs money to do this, and agencies are footing the bills. Do you want your taxes to go up so they can start providing whether the offender was an illegal to the FBI so they can compile it?
And how would that change the way you'd direct your agents if you had it? Tell them ignore some homicides and not others?
The notion that we'd have any numbers on if illegals did the killing is preposterous given it would not change the purpose for which these numbers are gathered. They are gathered for police response. And we now use them to see how things are changing, policy effectiveness, etc.
If you don't like the numbers, then gather your own. Then please report back on a) how easy that was (yeah, get permission from the police departments to dig in their files); b) how expensive it was (just under 19,000 agencies out there now! Good luck!); and c) how long it took you to do it alone and who supported you while you did your research.
Oh, and by the time you're done, some yahoo will complain that your numbers are OLD. So start over. Then complain and make the govt do that research for you. Then listen to how some would bitch that the govt is "wasting money" doing that kind of research.
* oh, and gathering data from media reports doesn't count and much is never reported there, and details reported are generally incorrect. Go to the case files.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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Ron, just how did you come up with accurate immigration statistics from crimes that are only a week old. You must have moles on the inside. Even if murders were caught when the crime was committed, the perps were probably not even screened by INS yet. The other possibility is that you just made up convenient facts.
Please list your data, we are curious
edit: INS should be Homeland Security, I forgot we renamed everything so we could have a warm fuzzy feeling when that agency name was uttered.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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I think the best thing to do to those crazy Westboro mudderfukers is to ignore them--completely.
Don't give them another thought, and certainly don't encourage the media to cover them.
They are trolls, they crave the attention.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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They arrested some idiot in Indiana after he threatened to set his wife on fire and then take out as many people as he could at a nearby elementary school. he had 47 guns and ammo.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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It's not guns it's the Mexicans. Wake up america
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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just went to the NRA web site. They are selling a book advertising Oliver North as an American Hero. really. you can't make this up.
Then Locker's post shows raise in gun death's among blacks and Hispanic youth is tied to the flood of cocaine. And who marshaled the cocaine trade? Oliver North.
And now he's a national hero in the eyes of the NRA. seems fitting.
some info on Contras and drugs released thru FOIA
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm
I wish one of these attention whores with guns would take after North and his ilk rather than children. That's just me. YMMV
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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The nutcases don't seem to take out their own
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Can't let racist gunnuts like Ron run the show. See what you get?
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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Funny how the media missed this little tid bit. Biased reporting???
The Clackamas Town Center Mall shooting last week most likely would have been worse if it were not for another man with a gun. Hmmmmm. Guns have no purpose other than hunting????? A gun saved a life, potentialy more than one????
http://easybakegunclub.com/news/1943/Clackamas-Mall-Shooter-Was-Confonted-By-Concealed-.html
Does this mean that only the facts reported make statistics and only those who read about something know what is really going on in this world?
I am going to go out on a limb here, most of the posting is based on skewed and uninformed bullsh1t data, collected and compiled by someone with an agenda. Hmmmmmm.
Burly Bob
Edit to add, the source is wacko gun nut information, not the mainstream media doing their job to get your money.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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47 guns? OMG!!
BTW, besides owning good old American made guns, I have examples from Canada (P16 high capacity .40S&W handgun!), Spain, Italy, England (Sterling 9mm w/ 32 round clip!), Austria, the Czech Republic, Japan, Brazil, Switzerland, Turkey, China, India, Russia, and (among the best) Germany.
So I'm not sure that you can "bet" that the guns you refer to are made right here in the good old US of A.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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Two or three witnesses to the Giffords shooting had concealed weapons, did not help at all. If they had pulled their weapons they would likely been killed by LE or another witness with a gun. That scenario has happened.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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So does everyone really ignore the fact that these shootings and deaths amount to an almost insignificant number of deaths by man-made causes this year?
I mean really, it sucks and all but eight to ten thousand people die every year because of drunk driving. 28 is just not a big number compared to that. Why the heck should we get all flustered about this and keep in ignoring actual real threats to our lives?
Sorry, but I can't get flustered by this. The odds of it happening to my kid are just too small to require any action on my part or on the part of our school or town.
That said, this sort of thing make me want to cry because it does have an extra level of despair about it.
Dave
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
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Maybe I misunderstand what is so upsetting about the FBI's numbers. Help clear it up for me if you don't mind.
The purpose of the FBI's UCR SHR numbers is to quantify the number of PEOPLE who were victims of homicide in the USA. And they are designed to offer a bit of qualitative data about homicides in the USA and it's territories).
So, if you were on the ground in the USA (or a territory) and you get chopped, and the police learn of this, and they report it to the FBI, you are in these numbers.
This is not a statistic designed to describe citizens only.
These statistics do not include American citizens who go to other places and get whacked.
These statistics do not include murders that did not come to the attention of police (murders of folks who may or may not have been citizens).
The statistics have a simple purpose, and they perform that purpose well. They inform law enforcement. They are used for law enforcement personnel in the USA to know how to distribute their resources (e.g., officers).
Just because someone else thinks they should have some unrelated purpose does not make them bad statistics.
The statistics are not used to determine anything about citizenship, nor were they designed to do so.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Stop showing pictures of my closet!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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Wanting to cry qualifies as flustered
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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The squid has it right.
If you want to get the greatest reduction in tragic trauma raise the bar on the driver's license exam and make distracted driving a felony. (And increase insurance coverage so that victims are fully compensated, a real problem)
Oh, but does that sound a little inconvenient for your lifestyle?
Well then, it is so much more convenient to vilify a tool.
(makes you feel good about yourself too)
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Now you all can insult away,, but NOT one of you will be able to prove me wrong.
can't disprove delusion as there are no verifiable facts or citations involved.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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This is a rockclimbing site, jghedge.
You can't swing a dead cat here without hitting somebody that refused to grow up.
WTF are YOU doing here?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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So, How many guns do you own squid?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Yes, but not worried about it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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Trolling for idiots.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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Rectorsquid: Sorry, but I can't get flustered by this. The odds of it happening to my kid are just too small to require any action on my part or on the part of our school or town.
No doubt the prevailing attitude in Newtown prior to the shooting.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
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BTW, when I was 6 I lived and went to school in CT about 30 miles from Newtown.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
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Again, I'm not suggesting eliminating guns, just reducing their number from 310 million to 100 million, restricting a bunch of classes of weapons, and providing far more stringent oversight on the which remain.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
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THIS just in:
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) -- Authorities in Alabama say a man opened fire in a hospital, wounding an officer and two employees before he was fatally shot by police
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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THIS just in:
NEWPORT BEACH, Calif. -- A man was arrested Saturday after firing about 50 shots in the parking lot of a Southern California shopping mall, prompting a lockdown of stores crowded with holiday shoppers.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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And another, THIS just in:
CEDAR LAKE, Ind. -- A northern Indiana man who allegedly threatened to "kill as many people as he could" at an elementary school near his home was arrested by officers who later found 47 guns and ammunition hidden throughout his home.
Von. I. Meyer, 60, of Cedar Lake, was arrested Saturday after prosecutors filed formal charges of felony intimidation, domestic battery and resisting law enforcement against him. He was being held Sunday without bond at the Lake County Jail, pending an initial hearing on the charges, police said in a statement.
Cedar Lake Police officers were called to Meyer's home early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire once she fell asleep, the statement said.
Meyer also threatened to enter nearby Jane Ball Elementary School "and kill as many people as he could before police could stop him," the statement said. Meyer's home is less than 1,000 feet from the school and linked to it by trails and paths through a wooded area, police said.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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Yes, definitely. 'Shoot' for 210 million buy-back meltdowns.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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I must have missed it
who said anything about passing a Federal Law to take my guns away from me?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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The names and birth dates of the dead:
Charlotte Bacon (2/22/06), 6 years old, female
Daniel Barden (9/25/05), 7 years old, male
Rachel Davino (7/17/83), Staff member, 29 years old, female
Olivia Engel (7/18/06), 6 years old, female
Josephine Gay (12/11/05), 7 years old, female
Ana M. Marquez-Greene (4/4/06), 6 years old, female
Dylan Hockley (3/8/06), 6 years old, male
Dawn Hochsprung (6/28/65), Principal, 47 years old, female
Madeleine F. Hsu (7/10/06), 6 years old, female
Catherine V. Hubbard (6/8/06), 6 years old, female
Chase Kowalski (10/31/05), 7 years old, male
Nancy Lanza, 52 years old, female (mother of shooter Adam Lanza)
Jesse Lewis (6/30/06), 6 years old, male
James Mattioli (03/22/06), 6 years old, male
Grace McDonnell (11/4/05), 7 years old, female
Anne Marie Murphy (7/25/60), Staff member, 52 years old, female
Emilie Parker (05/12/06), 6 years old, female
Jack Pinto (05/05/06), 6 years old, male
Noah Pozner (11/20/06), 6 years old, male
Caroline Previdi (9/07/06), 6 years old, female
Jessica Rekos (5/10/06), 6 years old, female
Avielle Richman (11/17/06) 6 years old, female
Lauren Rousseau (June 1982), Staff member, 30 years old, female
Mary Sherlach (2/11/56), Staff member, 56 years old, female
Victoria Soto (11/04/85), Staff member, 27 years old, female
Benjamin Wheeler (09/12/06), 6 years old, male
Allison N. Wyatt (07/03/06), 6 years old, female
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/15/victims-connecticut-school-shooting/1771765/ Includes photos of many of the dead.
(I'm just getting going. Perhaps once I have them, I'll repeatedly post not just the above, but also photos of those who died.)
As for the Westboro gang, I'm sure the secret service will be well prepared for them if they show up.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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Don't use euphemisms. They're not "fallen". They're 20 little children, and six adults, who are DEAD.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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My guns love you...they speak , they bark....Wanna pet my guns...Arrf...
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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They were 20 beutiful little children and their teachers who did nothing but go to school and were murdered with a legally purchased assault rifle.
EDIT: assault type rifle. sorry
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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No Ron, the Bushmaster got them all. The coroner has stated that.
e.g.,
"All the victims at the school were shot with a rifle, at least some of them up close, and all were apparently shot more than once, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said. There were as many as 11 shots on the bodies he examined." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/connecticut-guns-newtown-shooting_n_2311081.html);.
"Earlier reports claiming that Adam Lanza's primary weapons during the massacre were a pair of handguns has been refuted by Conn. Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H Wayne Carver, who said early today that the deaths can be attributed to the long rifle, which means it was the .223 Bushmaster. It's a very destructive weapon."
" The weapons that use .223 caliber ammunition range from bolt-action rifles to the more "assault" type semi-automatic rifles. New Jersey and Connecticut both have strict gun laws in place banning their own definitions of "assault" rifles — and anything over a 10 round magazine — but a simple trip across the border into Pennsylvania can secure weapons illegal in both those aforementioned states, or one can just buy weapons on the web."
"The .223 round is slightly lighter than the military grade version, but reacts the same on impact and is pretty much as deadly. It's designed to bounce around inside the body once it makes contact with bone.The AR-15 is the civilian version of the military's M16 and has been in production since Vietnam. The caliber is the same used in the DC sniper shootings. It was also used in the Colorado shooting."
(http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/update-ct-state-medical-examiner-says-b);
(Not that those details mattered. Little bodies don't tolerate bullets well regardless of the source)
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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ron, the medical examiner confirmed they were almost all killed by "the long gun"
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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But a bushmaster isnt a assault weapon It's close enough Cliff
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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But a bushmaster isnt a assault weapon.
Some (most?) Bushmaster models are on the CA assault weapon list. Don't know about the one used in Connecticut.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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It just depends on the features, as always.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
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Ron is referring to this story
Yeah, we know go back to bed
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 16, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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Sorry, Ron. It's just that I'm appalled by what happened on Friday, and the largely fatuous responses to it, here and elsewhere. But firmly believe that there is absolutely nothing to be gained by candy-coating it in any way. These were innocents, murdered in cold blood. If we can't take the time to remember them, then we should STFU.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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A MODEST PROPOSAL:
Killing people has never been sanctioned in the US but hunting, while declining, is still a popular past time in America with about 12,500,000 participants.
To make mass murders more difficult and hunting more interesting, I propose that firearm possession in America be limited to Single Barrel Break Action Shotguns. Hardly a weapon for mass murder and fine for hunting. They are also extremely safe weapons.
The single barrel will require increased skill in order for hunters to be successful adding prestige to the sport. With rifted slug loads big game as well as birds can be on the committed hunters menu.
A win win combination for everyone.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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how interesting
guns are just, so cool
but I have mine just in case the ILLEGALS come and try to kill me and my wife
and maybe some TROPHIES for my fuking living room
I am, otherwise, a responsible gun owner
Interesting that you fantasize about killing. Most NRA types obsess about blowing someone else away and freely advertise that fact.
Just the kind of nut who should not be allowed to own guns.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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nick d, my post was pure sarcasm
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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Is this a "HUNTING" rifle???...
If you need that for hunting you suck and need a new sport
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
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Hunting for most people in America stop being a sport a long time ago.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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I've met a few of the people posting here or been present when they were around.
It's ironic that the ones doing most of the name calling and posturing here are the most mild mannered in person. Relatively diminutive as well.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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Jesus h bomz said "Less guns = less gun-related deaths. Basic math ;)."
But it is not a simple equation. I can easily cary a field of fire in the similar manner as the Cackamas shooting of over 100 and probably around 240 rounds. One gun not even fired stopped this tragedy with less than one shot fired with potential for up to a 100 probable hits with about 25% probability of fatal hits. Simple? HARDLY. Too many unconfirmed and variable options to state something like it is simple math. Kind of like a term I have heard recently,"Gun nuts".
If the problem was so simple I am sure western medicine would come up with a pill, or police with a procedure, or lawmakers a law, or teachers with information to be shared with all, or scientists with a theory and probable outcome via experimentation. Blanket statements such as simple math just hold no weight, at all.
Try this one anti gun thinkers. The media glamorizes and sensationizes all the story of happenings like this to sell papers and more appropriatly advertising. The better the read, the more money they can make. Other places with mass involved problems have been able to curb behaviour and repeat behaviour simply by not showing certain events. Example being people rushing the fields at professional sports events the world over.
By getting your information from the mainstream media, buying a newspaper for example, you are not only condoning the behaviour that will further incidents like mass shootings, and reinforce to the media tha "money good, morals reporting not so good".
This soils every one of us, and I am willing to bet there are many who may read this who will deny it immediately. A pile who will deny any resposibility on any but the smallest level. Only a few unafraid to objectively see their own actions a furthering the problem. Just a guess, but maybe closer to the mark than not.
Guns the problem, not hardly. Ignorance and inaction, very likely. Money, absolutely. Mental illness, positively. And we all bear this burden to some degree.
Burly Bob
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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Locker asked Is this a "HUNTING" rifle???...
Looks prime for hunting 1st graders.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
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The media glamorizes and sensationizes all the story of happenings like this to sell papers and more appropriatly advertising.
One can equally well say this thread does the same. In this case because individual posters get some sort of satisfaction out of posting.
In fact the two serve their real and primary function in exactly the same way. People in the society need to communicate if we are able to fashion our collective response. That is the task in front of us. It does begin to look as though a decision to take action on this problem is finally forming up. Progress.
"Kill the messenger" does not wash.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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Ron, How many rounds doe's that thing hold? bolt action vs semi auto? C'mon
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
Norton;
how interesting
guns are just, so cool
but I have mine just in case the ILLEGALS come and try to kill me and my wife
and maybe some TROPHIES for my fuking living room
I am, otherwise, a responsible gun owner
nick d
Interesting that you fantasize about killing. Most NRA types obsess about blowing someone else away and freely advertise that fact.
Just the kind of nut who should not be allowed to own guns.
Boy, nick d is so rabid he attacks a member of his own pack!
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TREED
Trad climber
Gunks
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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Ron,
That bolt action rifle holds 4 rounds below the bolt which require the shooter to reload each bullet into the magazine individually. WAY lower rate of fire than the AR-15. With extra clips the AR can produce an almost non-stop rain of bullets.
After what has happened I can't comprehend anyone defending ownership of these. Your arguments have no merit. Semi auto weapons have one purpose.
What will it take to change the mentality here. 50 kids at once? 100? It's very possible.
As fate would have it I was in a sporting goods/ hunting and fishing store when the news of this came across the phone. I went over to my buddy who was at the gun counter and relayed the news. His response was "Oh God, not again." The respose of the guy behind the counter, who happens to be the owner, will stick with me forever.
"I hope he didn't have an AR-15."
What is wrong in your head that upon hearing 20 children have been slaughtered your concern is for your fuggin gun?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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We are starting to get ideas here!
I think home protection is not a defensible reason for possessing more than one suitable weapon. People with small arsenals are collectors. If that is the case one can still be a collector and have many weapons but have all but one permanently disabled. Now I certainly can understand one getting pleasure from firing the various weapons. So why not have those weapons owned and maintained by the target ranges. None ever allowed to leave the premises. People who love 50 caliber machine guns would go to a range that stocks that weapon.
As regards the practice needed to hit anything, going to a range to practice would have an ancillary benefit. Someone's field or woods would not have lead scattered all over the place. You would take your home protection rifle, gussied up as you like, to the range. To make that preferable to targeting some farmer's field, ammo at the range might be sold at a big discount. You would get to shoot more.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
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Is a Bushmaster an "assault type" weapon?
Sure, I'll grant that (even though it is merely a pejorative term lacking precise definition).
Is it designed specifically for killing people?
Sure, I'll grant that.
But the Second Amendment is not just about killing Bambi.
It is about self-defense too.
This naive insistence on allowing ownership of only "sporting" firearms is foolish.
I am not about to consider how to give an armed assailant a sporting chance.
If you live far enough from other structures and might have to engage targets beyond the range of a riot gun (which is likely more instantly lethal within 80m) then a Bushmaster is not a bad choice.
A bad choice would be choosing to commit a crime with it.
But gun haters gloss over that element and sound almost as if guns could go off by themselves.
EDIT for Ed
I hope things never fall apart in my lifetime. I hope that our economy does NOT collapse. I'm heavily invested in it.
But should the worst happen, should there be civil chaos, and Ed comes knocking at my door, then he better have some DAMN fine trade goods! (and he's still "back of the line")
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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This naive insistence on allowing ownership of only "sporting" firearms is foolish.
No, it's not - naive or foolish.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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Ron asked himself and then answered himself: whats the diff between This one and Lockers pic? About a second and a half of time between round expended. that is all.
Seems to me that 1.5 seconds between shots and a small clip would provide a pretty big window for someone trying to stop the shooter.
I don't see how people can look at mass shooting after mass shooting, year after year with 10's of thousands of Americans killed and think "yeah this system is working pretty well let's not change anything."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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Naive and foolish.....pamper me, tell me why.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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We aren't all ex Green Berets that can kill opponents with merely a blue camalot.
(or think we can,..)
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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You left one out. Impotent
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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Mr Hedges statistic relative to gun control in the UK is quite imposing...
Though we probably shouldn't regard them as an island of non-belligerents, yet . Some blogs claim knife crime is on the increase.
I've read claims that Glasgow has more violence than Rio...and Manchester pubs employ armies of bouncers (doormen)...and there's been a rash of young men dying in fights with steak knives.
That kind of violence is likely impelled by alchohol and testosterone. The massacre of children is driven by something far more malignant.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
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But gun haters gloss over that element and sound almost as if guns could go off by themselves.
People disagree with your desire to have multiple weapons designed for killing people, so what do you do? Label them "gun haters."
Like a lot of people posting here, I grew up with guns. I've hunted with guns. Will probably do so again. So why is it hard for you to get your mind around the fact that wanting to see regulation of gun ownership DOES NOT MAKE ME A GUN HATER.
You probably get your rocks off dreaming about the opportunity to blow people away "in self defense." And people like you make it a lot easier for people to murder twenty children at a time. But me saying either of those things doesn't mean I hate guns. Okay?
If you want to justify your need to have fifty different kinds of firearm within easy reach at all times, then go ahead. But just because others here don't have that need, doesn't make them gun haters.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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We need new guns laws...that said, I think we are going to find out that bad parenting, a incapable/sick mother and a child with severe mental problems are more the blame than guns.
The guns he used were meant to kill lots of people in a very short period of time. I have no problem seeing them taken out of equation.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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How, Bob 'D?
Take them away from the people that DO obey laws?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
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EXACTLY and she purchased the guns legally exercising her second amendment rights
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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all is well
Honey Boo Boo is back
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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Putting too much blame on gun ownership isn't going to change the fact that most of these types of shootings are being performed by seriously mentally ill people...
Mentally ill people who have a much harder time finding help than finding a gun. Let's make sure our taxes stay low, mental health stays underfunded and gun ownership remains as easy as pie.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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Hey Norton, is that me?
Did I ever flame you?
locker, your glue always makes gud trade goods.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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LOL, Ed.
You just made some republican heads explode!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
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Did I ever flame you?
Hey Norton, is that me?
oh come on
why would you assume I was talking about you anyway?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 05:55pm PT
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OK so it isn't.
The proximity made me ask.
BTW locker, my grandmother told me about how it happened to her as a young woman so, as crazy as you think the possibility is, are you ready to bet your life?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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locker, your 2:46 post (economic collapse)
She was a wealthy young woman who lost everything when the currency hyper-inflated, but that could never happen again right?
Regarding the "you only need one gun" argument;
Firearms are devices that not only tend to have moving parts but more pointedly contain and direct the force of explosions.
I currently have 6 guns that are "down" and in need of repair.
Parts can be hard to come by.
Others suffer from chronic indigestion, and I haven't worked out why.
The idea that one gun is enough sounds like somebody who doesn't know much about maintenance considerations.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
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"leavin',.. on a jet plane,.. don't know when I'll be back again"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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I knew it. Somebody was going to quote the Seattle study.
Your methodology is flawed jghedge, but it comforts your belief system.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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Dave, you know you can really do any climb with a blue camalot.
You really don't need to own that whole rack.
The government should buy it back from you.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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Hey Toker, How many vehicles do you keep around in case one needs maint. or repair? I can see how terrible it would be if the bad guy's finally do show up and your gun is in the shop
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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This just in:
(Reuters) - A 60-year-old Indiana man found to have concealed dozens of firearms in his home has been jailed on charges he threatened to kill people at a nearby elementary school a day after one of the deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history.
Von Meyer was arrested and charged on Saturday after police found 47 weapons and ammunition in his two-story house, about 1,000 feet from Jane Ball Elementary School in Cedar Lake, Indiana, roughly 45 miles southeast of Chicago.
A police statement about the arrest accused Meyer of having said "he would enter the school and kill as many people as he could before police could stop him."
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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you have to have all your bases covered
Von Meyer- Is that spanish?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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Kenny, I have 2 4X4s, 2 dirt bikes (1 is a complete set of spare parts), a quad, a sportscar, and I'm looking for a brood mare and a second bicycle.
Riley, you funny!
You got my defenses all figured out huh?
But I don't need to sell nuthin' to travel. I got Skymile points buying ammo!
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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I'll betcha mines bigger than yours
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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So, in other words jghedge, you don't actually know where the claim that a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder comes from?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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the military turns against us gun is the funny one. The most highly organized militia in the country would merely be a training exercise for a special forces unit. and they would be prying the weapons from their cold dead hands.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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jghedge wrote;
Except that the owner is far more likely to be killed by that one gun, or for it to accidentally/intentionally kill a family member, than for it to be used in defense
Sounds like a similar claim.
Edit; I don't need to delete anything.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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Might want to take a break and go to CNN. The President is going to address the memorial now being held.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
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I'll give you a hint jghedge;
I just finished a study that I will publish that concludes that if you send your 6 year old to school then the child is 20 times more likely to be shot and killed than if the child stayed home.
If it was something that dovetailed well into their belief system then people would repeat the conclusion so often that it would be taken as a given and few would know it was based on this recent horror and not the norm.
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TREED
Trad climber
Gunks
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
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Live by the sword........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:26pm PT
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You don't win debates by saying your opponent is a poor debater.
All defense and no offense?
How appropriate!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
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Wanna fix this problem? Arm school staff. REQUIRE a minimum of 2 armed CCW-trained school officials per school. At least one in the administrative office, and at least one teacher.
Anyone who volunteers and passes the training gets to carry.
The Oregon shooting was probably stopped by a CCW carrier, even though he never fired a shot.
http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html
Just pointed his weapon, but held his fire for fear of civis in the background.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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Except that the owner is far more likely to be killed by that one gun, or for it to accidentally/intentionally kill a family member, than for it to be used in defense Don't quote my sources, just yours.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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35 gun deaths in the UK last year. Yet no guns. Kind of nullifies the no guns, no deaths argument. Guns available verses deaths ratio must be what? 10,000 times higher than the US?
Burly Bob
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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35 gun deaths in the UK last year. Yet no guns. Kind of nullifies the no guns, no deaths argument. Guns available verses deaths ratio must be what? 10,000 times higher than the US?
By your logic those people died by imaginary guns since no guns were "available."
bluering insisted Wanna fix this problem? Arm school staff. REQUIRE a minimum of 2 armed CCW-trained school officials per school. At least one in the administrative office, and at least one teacher.
Nothing says "learning environment" like a glock. How many people are injured/killed by gun accidents? Also, what problem does this "fix?" Why wouldn't he have just gone to a daycare or a hospital or anywhere else? Every state in the union has a concealed carry law and we have piles and piles of guns and yet it's still fairly rare that a violent crime is actually stopped. The "problem" can't be that there simply aren't ENOUGH guns. It's like arguing the answer to high speed car accidents is gridlock traffic congestion.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
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I haven't googled a damn thing.
Most educated people understand the concept of "sources", brave bwana.
Virtually all of my guns have killed less people than Ted Kennedy's car.
"Ted, what if I'm pregnant?"
"Don't worry, Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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You people keep using the UK. Not only is that a failed argument but it is totally different than us geographically. They are and Isle. We are a continent.
You will never control gun flow. Especially w/ South America. They have strict gun laws, yet get shot-up all the time.
I think it's clear to let law-abiding civis have guns. The CT shooter was denied a gun on the Tuesday before the shooting. As a result, he took his mom's guns.
Secure your weapons! And arm the school administrative staff!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
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Don't just kid proof your guns.
Gun proof your kids.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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And arm the school administrative staff!!!!
Are you f*#king kidding me?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
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Toker said Virtually all of my guns have killed less people than Ted Kennedy's car.
Why are you holding out on us, Toker? There is all that crime out there your gun is supposed to be stopping. Think of all those rapists you let get away!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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Think of all those rapists you let get away!
But I thought you deserved it.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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ARM THE CHILDREN!!!!
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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Firearms training, marksmanship class and guns issued to teachers is a very sensible solution.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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They did a moment of silence before tonites football game, shot a flare for each victim. Seemed to go on and on.
I hope this country can now have a rationale debate about gun control. The reality is that until the weapons lobby loosens their grip on Congress we are stuck with the pathetic state of affairs we created.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
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Arming and training teachers and administrators who are interested is kinda like arming pilots in commercial aircraft. It might stop 5% but probably not. Better than nothing, but not by much.
Until we can uncover what, in the past 20 years, is causing young males to go on random murderous rampages, no laws or tactical measures is going to help.
I want a list of every single perscribed medication these killers were on in the past year. Does the MSM even mention that? Of course not. There's no time sandwiched in between the Lyrica and Cymbalta ads.
Something has changed, recently, what is it?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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only 35 UK gun deaths last year, 55th out of the 65 developed nations, despite a defenseless population - so much for that argument.
Mr Hedge,
Perhaps the UK shouldn't be characterized "defenseless population" as far as firearms.
In the United Kingdom, civilians are not allowed to possess semi automatic and automatic firearms or handguns. But they may own other firearms.
The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United Kingdom is 4,060,000. The rate of private gun ownership in the United Kingdom is 6.7 firearms per 100 people.
(Karp, Aaron.2007.‘Completing the Count: Civilian firearms.’ Small Arms Survey 2007: Guns and the City.Cambridge:Cambridge University Press,27 August)
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 16, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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What has changed? Sensationalization by the media.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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Firearms training, marksmanship class and guns issued to teachers is a very sensible solution.
Yep!. The ones who are unfit wash out of the program. The remaining qualified people get guns.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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Bwa ha ha.
They got to practice abroad!
Bwa ha ha.
The Jamaican bob sledders of the marksmanship community!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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My point about their Isle vs. our continent is the control issue. Idiots!!
Much easier to control an Island or town than a whole continent's gun traffic.
Again. Look at Mexico and South America. They are bringing in weapons from China, bra!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
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bmacd: Firearms training, marksmanship class and guns issued to teachers is a very sensible solution.
So 180 degrees wrong.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Man. This whole thing is just so awful to picture in your mind that I just couldn't handle it. I have only watched ten minutes of the news since the shootings.
It is that horrible. Children.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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Anyone that thinks turning schools into the wild west with everyone packing is the solution is way off base.
Do you think this guy worried for one minute whether the school teachers and students were armed? He was seriously mentally disturbed. Don't you get it?
The only solution is to make these types guns harder to obtain. Period.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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Man. This whole thing is just so awful to picture in your mind that I just couldn't handle it. I have only watched ten minutes of the news since the shootings.
It is that horrible. Children.
I know... I can't watch it either. I've got to drop my kid off tomorrow at daycare. I know every parent will be thinking the same thing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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Easy to quote out of context but, it is actually a good thing that all these pathetic nutcases resorted to firearms.
If they knew how to make mothball bombs (ridiculously easy) the body count would have been far worse.
A sick culture that emulates violence at gunpoint makes people think that it is the apex of violence.
It isn't.
But it makes people focus on firearms.
I fear that if firearms are eventually declared contraband then these homIcidal psychopaths may actually stumble upon the fact that, short of a nuclear device, the most powerful weapon known to man is a mothball bomb.
Think OK City times 5-10.
Who thinks I should delete this post?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 16, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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The Wikipedia link Mr Hedge posted seems to say semi-automatic pistols of .22 rimfire calibres, are permitted in the UK
Isn't such a firearm essentially the same as what police in the U.S. refer to as a "Saturday Night Special" ?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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Jennie, I think a SNS is any cheap highly concealable (SMALL) handgun.
Think Raven or Jennings or any of those other cheap POS.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:07pm PT
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If you walked into the Gun Shop, and asked to see the Saturday Night Specials - or the Assault Weapons - you'd be immediately shown the door.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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actually, Saturday Night Specials refers to the 38 revolver of Chicago 1930's fame
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
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The teachers and administrators are probably armed in the U.K.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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I am sorry to say it but You gun Nutters are pathetic sacks of weasel sh#t.
Once again you have turned an important discussion into a cyber show and tell brag fest about stroking your rods and getting your loads off. You all disgust me. Any one of you who seriously advocate arming teachers are too ignorant to waste time on. Go f*#k your selves with your M-16s ASSHOLES!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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so Donald Thompson
it is quite easy to criticize other people's efforts to find solutions, anyone can do that
you seem so knowledgable about this
what exactly are YOU recommending to be done about this thread's title?
please lay out your well considered ideas
thanks
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
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Not one of you can PROVE you need these military type weapons. Not one of you can PROVE that not having them would seriously abridge your 2nd Amendment rights. You are arguing a false reasoning and it sickens me.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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Don T. is right in line with the NRA's post massacre strategy. He's at point three of the National Rifle Association's rote four-step crisis management response.
One. Don't talk to the press. You don't want the NRA's name associated in the public's mind with mass shootings and the inevitable carnage that results from our nation's lax gun policies. You want to make sure that the last thing anyone associates with a gun massacre is firearms and those who promote them. To argue to the American public that 26 dead students and teachers is, as the NRA says, "the price of freedom" is far more difficult when the cost is seen with graphic horror, the faces and stories of the lives lost confronting us. The NRA depends on gun violence being an abstract concept to most Americans. Mass shootings make it all too real.
Two. If the press coverage is broad enough, issue a statement expressing sympathy for the victims. If not, ignore them.
Three. When the shooting no longer dominates the news cycle, abandon the bunker and rebuke any and all who have dared to call for gun control. Be sure to indignantly argue that anyone calling for measures to control guns is exploiting tragedy for "political gain." And be sure to attack the news media for actually covering the story.
Four. Work to stop measures to address America's growing gun problem that may be proposed in the wake of the shooting.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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Notice how the author of the above quote equates disagreeing with gun control as synonymous with allowing someone to murder children.
This kind of outrageous hyperbole is what must be trotted out in order to repeal an amendment to the Constitution.
The h in his name stands for hyperbole.
Standard MO
It's a social issue, Duhnold - and who always wins on social issues?
WE DO
The Republican party was founded to end slavery.
Which "WE" are you talking about?
certainly not Democrats or "progressives" (like Margret Sanger, etc.)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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Just got home from work and started from the last post and reading toward the beginning.
So many comments...."well just do this, make a law for that, if they'd only figure it out, and on and on.
Talk is cheap. It lets you vent while going on with your life doing nothing about the issue at hand. If you're that concerned, dedicate part of this coming year to changing things you feel passionately about. Many of you here posting must feel passionately about this topic.
Talk less, do more. It works. Jess sayin' lynne.
(Dan and I, along with many like minded people in our community took time out of our lives to invest in a vision for our community. Against all odds it won and worked and made a difference that we are now enjoying many years down the road.)
Edit: Yeah, that's another good one......put it all on O'bama's back.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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Hopefully Obama is pissed and is ready to do something about these assault type rifles if nothing else. give up your guns and get some f*#king Viagra you guy's are playing with the wrong guns.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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good one nick
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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Yeah, I'm wondering if and what to say about this thing to my high school students tomorrow. As a teacher I think about this sh!t regularly.
The science wing at my school is a seperate building. I kinda feel vulnerable out there. I don't know, its messed up but I can't help thinking about that stuff, ever since Columbine; Every time I have a heated discussion with a student or parent. Emotions run high at schools. So many of my students are dealing with so many "adult" problems.
I guess I just want my students to know that, bottom line, I've got their back (even though I may have to bust them sometimes). I would like to think I would take a bullet for them just like those young women who died at Sandy Hook.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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Hey DungHole the 2nd Amendment was never intended to allow people to amass the kinds of weapons and arsenals they now do. What we would so wrong in restricting rapid fire large magazine guns from the general citizenry? Seriously what would be so wrong?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
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When I was in high school in the late 60's I got on the bus once with a Mauser M98 A Friend of mine brought an "Assault Rifle" (M14)both for the demonstration assignment for a speech class. Wasn't any big deal.
Gun ownership per capita peaked somewhere around 1900. We have a social / mental illness problem, not a gun ownership one.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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Screening people buying guns on the basis of mental illness is certainly not a bad idea.
I wonder if penning insulting hateful rants on the internet is considered to be a symptom.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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there's a Spielberg movie currently in theaters you might want to check out to get you up-to-speed on that
I'll be sure to cite your historical bonifides there.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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We have a social / mental illness problem, not a gun ownership one.
Exactly .....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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Anyone that thinks turning schools into the wild west with everyone packing is the solution is way off base.
Do you think this guy worried for one minute whether the school teachers and students were armed? He was seriously mentally disturbed. Don't you get it?
The only solution is to make these types guns harder to obtain. Period.
Wrong! Every school should have at least 2 trained shooters who know what they're doing and carry every day.
Minimum of 2. But they must be trained to go after the shooter after their class is secure.
I'm sure some would volunteer for it. Cheaper if school teachers do it. Give them a bit of a bonus.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
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Geez Bluey,
The answer is to have snipers at every school?
What kind of F'd up society is that?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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Spending for mental illness is so low in this country that it is embarrasing. The number of inpatient beds is about as low as it was in 1700. Sure, there are a number of mental health facilities that require payment, but the cost is probably over 1000 bucks per day. It is cheaper to put them in prison, which pretty much everyone agrees is now our defacto mental health provider.
We have a main state mental hospital in our city and they have been cut to just a few beds. One of two in the state.
You guys are really missing the point when you make this a gun issue.
If you are disaffected and detached from society, there is one way to gain great fame: Do something destructive.
It is incredibly difficult to do something that is so constructive and positive that you are remembered for decades. You won't even be mentioned on the news for one day. Not exciting enough.
It is incredibly easy to do something destructive and be remembered for decades.
Our society is also incredibly violent. We can send our kids to movies showing good guys and bad guys shooting each other, and it has gotten very graphic over the last 30 years. Incredibly graphic.
At the same time, you can't show a woman's breasts or it is obscene. My state just passed an open carry law, but if my wife decided to sunbathe her boobies at the local pool on a summers day, she would be arrested.
There is a part in the movie Apocalypse Now that this reminds me of. At the end, Col. Kurtz is speaking one of his speaches into the radio:
"We train our young men to drop fire on people, but we won't let them write the word "fukc" on their airplanes because it is obscene
Again. It is easy to do something horrific. It is much more difficult to do something good that is recognized. We love hearing about violence and scandal on the news, but we rarely hear a story of an act of kindness.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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The nation is rightly shocked and offended at the needless deaths of 20 children.
As we look for ways to reduce the senseless suffering of children, it's worth remembering than literally thousands of children were killed in US airstrikes in Iraq, a country that wasn't a threat to us and didn't attack us. US military action, unintentionally but inevitably, is killing children in several countries around the world.
We are challenged to change our culture at home to be less violent, but at the same time, let's demand that we use military force only out of necessity, and not to enforce economic imperialism.
Peace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.
...
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am Jason Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.
...
When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”
I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population. ( http://www.hrw.org/news/2006/09/05/us-number-mentally-ill-prisons-quadrupled);
With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail, and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011 ( http://www.npr.org/2011/09/04/140167676/nations-jails-struggle-with-mentally-ill-prisoners);
No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”
http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=1
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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Geez Bluey,
The answer is to have snipers at every school?
What kind of F'd up society is that?
Nice job escalating my argument! I said side-arm carry, not snipers!
Nobody would ever see the guns. Or hopefully ever see them discharged!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
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Secure your weapons! And arm the school administrative staff!!!!
Are you aware that in most schools, there are "resource officers" who are armed? They are police officers who work in schools. They are trained and armed. Already done.
http://www.nasro.org/ <---a website to check out (I'm doing so now)
Now as far as arming teachers...I can only speak to university faculty (some of whom are already armed) and I know many that should in no way have a gun! Just a month ago on the Univ of Colo campus there was a gun incident. And "oops" my gun went off while showing it to a colleague. The colleague was wounded. Glad it wasn't a 5 year old that took that bullet.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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And the first kid who asks to see your gun gets detention.
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Will_P
Trad climber
Melbourne, Victoria
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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Every school should have at least 2 trained shooters who know what they're doing and carry every day.
Minimum of 2. But they must be trained to go after the shooter after their class is secure.
I'm sure some would volunteer for it. Cheaper if school teachers do it. Give them a bit of a bonus
Oh, that's brilliant dude! Yeah, THAT'S what the U.S education system needs! [And I repeat my offer of anyone who thinks guns are, in fact, not cool, or an essential part of everyday life for the average citizen - move to Australia. Our education system is better, and gun-free]
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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Ravens, Jennings, Saturday Night Specials.
This should put a smile on your face, and God knows we all need something to smile about right now.
A few years ago, and a few years after California banned the sale of *Saturday Night Specials*, one of the armpit communities of Los Angeles attempted one of those police sponsored gun "buy back" opperations. They were offering $100 cash ( no questions asked, no limit ) for a single shot, bolt action, lever action, pump, or revolver. But the offer was $200 cash for any semi automatic firearm.
One of the guys who showed up early was a FFL gun dealer who had a trunk full of those Ravens or Jennings or whatever cheap auto he had been previously stuck with by the change in the law. He walked away with $200 cash for almost 200 of those cheap autos, which, prior to their ban, had been reatiling for about forty dollars each!
The only reason he didn't sell more was the cops ran out of cash, and their *buy back* shut down.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
SLO, Ca
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
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Strict constitutional construction means the second amendment lets folks keep a musket handy.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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Tom, with that single post, I have quite unfortunately just lost all respect for you. You reveal yourself to be just another self-deluded Alex Jones whack job - really astounding to the point of being unbelievable. Just so incredibly sad. Please resume your meds before it's too late.
P. S. Even sadder still to hear you believe that yet all your income comes from the "cadre" and has all along. Next you'll be telling us the moon landings were all a hoax. Again, sad beyond all measure.
I do not believe Tom Cochrane is sane. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1290347&msg=1290434#msg1290434
He's posted wackier stuff on some of the Klimmer threads. He's even accused me of being a whole team of government disinformation agents masquerading as graniteclimber.
Also I do not know why he thinks the government would fake an alien invasion, since he believes that aliens have already invaded and taken over the government.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
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The gerbil eater Granite turd returns to sh!t out more gerbils.
Stupid m'fuker .....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Dec 16, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
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soulsurfer, thanks for your post. It means more than all the rants. Thanks for your encouragement and the simplicity of your words. Peace, lynne
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:00am PT
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Freedom won't be lost. It'll just be outlawed. There'll still be a Black Market for it, just like there's a Black Market for everything else that's illegal.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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Freedom won't be lost. It'll just be outlawed.
That's exactly what will and is happening.
The stupid Americans always think they can stop something with a law or a pill.
The stupid Americans have thousands and thousands of stupid pills and stupid laws for every stupid thing they fuk up.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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"What has changed." We're talking 20-30 years or so.
I know everyone is frustrated and running off on tangents. But if we don't get to the source of these psychotic mass-murder/suicides then we all are in danger.
It's not lack of God in schools or high-capacity magazines. It's not a macho-thing with guys looking for phallic status symbol. These are previously sane people who kill random people en masse. You guys are smarter than that even if you're not thinking right now.
Does a common thread tie these young males with little or no previous violent histories together? I'm looking... are you?
You won't find any "journalists" asking these questions when their salaries are partially paid for by pharmaceutical companies. How many mental medication ads do you see every hour on TV?
I have watched someone very close to me completely loose their minds from "adverse reactions" to psychotropic medications prescribed by a psychiatrist. And I mean COMPLETELY LOOSE IT. It took her almost a year to get off the garbage with no help from said psychiatrist. It is not a stretch to see these recent killings could be tied to the same chemicals. Especially in a young male mind that is already very troubled without throwing in a chemical molotov cocktail.
Check out:
http://www.ssristories.com/
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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jhedge, as you started your latest post, I found it consistent with the position I'll now state, but then it became clear that you were in support of the very erosion of freedoms you cited.
Now, from here on in this post, by "you" I refer to the majority on this thread that are "anti-gun-nuts."
The idea that laws prevent crimes is generally unsupported by the empirical evidence. You yourselves (as many of you have on other threads) will submit this very FACT as your evidence that the death penalty does not act as an effective deterrent. So, don't talk out of both sides of your mouths.
From a political science/philosophy point of view, laws CANNOT prevent crime, nor SHOULD they. Laws define justice, which merely defines penalties. They are not about deterrence (which is merely a happy side-effect, IF it occurs). And the whole idea that is is government's primary role (or its role AT ALL) to "keep us safe" is the most fundamental mistake of the last few generations, culminating in the RAPID slide into the police state unintentionally cited by some recent posts on this thread.
This most recent mass-shooting is a terrible thing. Beyond words, in fact. But what is NOT beyond words is that we must NOT respond to whack-jobs in the ways we HAVE been.
Passive protections, such as locked-down cockpit doors are a no-brainer. NOBODY's rights are infringed by such measures! But what Americans willfully submit to at airports never ceases to boggle my mind. We are NO LONGER the land of the free nor the home of the brave. We are neither free nor brave! Unlike MOST of you (apparently), I would happily take my chances with terrorist attacks, if those chances would include things going back to a level of freedom from government interference we enjoyed quite recently in my own lifetime!
So, let's get to cases....
By the EXACT arguments purported by the majority on this thread, cars MUST be made illegal, since the death toll by car each year makes ALL gun-related deaths utterly pale in comparison. (And keep in mind that most gun-caused homicides are gang-related or drug-related. And both of these are the foreseeable consequence of the utterly failed police-state's war on drugs, which has done NOTHING but put a lot of people into prison and STRENGTHEN the stranglehold of gangs on this society.)
Government is not SUPPOSED to be protecting us, particularly from ourselves! Let's look at some recent "wars."
Prohibition? A "war on alcohol," the intent of which was to strengthen families and make America more moral and productive? UTTER failure. And what did we get? Merely the establishment of organized crime, the precursor to gangs as we now know them. Countless billions subsequently spend to fix the problem WE brought upon ourselves by ALLOWING the feds to control something they had NO RIGHT to have ANYTHING to do with. But, it was an experiment, as "foray" into what the interstate commerce clause could accomplish.
The war on drugs? What have we gotten from billions upon billions spent? Filled prisons, filled criminal courts, and GANGS. VIOLENT, homicidal gangs.
The war on gangs? What a joke! Nuff said.
The war on terrorism? Give me a break. We haven't had another 9/11... YET. But terrorism world-wide is doing just fine, thank you very much. What have we gotten from the war on terror?
Well, in typical governmental fashion, we've gotten ALWAYS closing the barn door after the horses have escaped. Oh, and, of course, closing that barn door ON law-abiding citizens.
Terrorists will simply go after other crowded places. I can't believe that the TSA hasn't moved "screening" to OUTSIDE the terminal! I mean, if you want to do a LOT of damage, don't wait to get ON the plane! Bring a body-bomb into the SECURITY line and take out many, MANY hundreds (including yourself) with the push of a button. And let's see Homeland Security close THAT threat down. The ONLY reason Homeland Security APPEARS to be working is that nut-jobs, even the idealistic variety, are relatively few anyway. Meanwhile, life for the NORMAL person gets harder and harder, with more and more invasions of our basic right to privacy... ALL in the name of SAFETY that is impossible in principle to provide. I'll take my chances, and AMERICANS, of all people on Earth, should be willing to take their chances.
I could go on and on about these "wars on" this or that. Bottom line is that I cringe when I hear about another WAR, because ALL it is going to mean is more COST to Americans: money and freedoms.
Back to the now-advocated "war on carnage."
Cars serve a "useful purpose," you say, "while guns do not?" Well, that's your OPINION on both sides of that comparison.
What we DO find is that our founders, FAR wiser than any of us, saw fit to PROTECT gun-ownership in this country, while no form of transportation was explicitly protected. ALL forms of transportation are CONVENIENCES, and you have no constitutionally-guaranteed RIGHT to ANY mere convenience!
In fact, tens of thousands of lives could be saved, countless maimings avoided, and a sea-change in energy-usage could be caused, by a sweeping governmental ban on cars and the enforcement of public transportation (phased in over a multi-year period, of course, to put the infrastructure in place). My point is that there are MANY alternative to the CARNAGE on the roads that we tolerate in the name of convenience.
There ARE better alternatives that we "independent American" car-lovers just don't happen to PREFER. But your PREFERENCES on this point are NOT constitutionally protected!
Just recently, here in the Denver area, a woman was driving her SUV too fast on a divided surface street. She was gabbing on her cell phone, got distracted, swerved, hit the center curb, was launched AIRBORN, and ultimately landed ON TOP of another vehicle. Net effect? ALL three occupants (two of them children) of the "subservient" vehicle were killed in, shall we say, HORRIBLE ways!
This sort of thing happens FREQUENTLY on our roads, all across the nation, with MANY times more people killed in such horrible ways. Yet, NOBODY is saying anything approaching: "Look, there are just too many incompetent operators of what are IN FACT deadly weapons. The death toll is too high, and speed limits simply aren't bringing things into sanity. Our love of the automobile and all it represents to our 'freedoms' is going to HAVE to give way to sanity. And sanity CLEARLY indicates that this 'freedom' is costing too much. What is the life of ONE child worth, anyway? Surely a national commitment to robust public transportation, such as is done in most of Europe, can be the answer here too. And if it saves even one life...."
Face it. We find the "bang for the buck" acceptable in the case of cars, but (some of us) don't in the case of guns. The fact that innocent children are snuffed out in horrible ways has NOTHING to do with the argument! NOTHING! Hold the variables constant, and the FACT is that we PREFER our children to die in car crashes than by guns. Somehow, horrible gun-deaths seem "needless," while horrible car-deaths are "just the cost of doing business."
And if you don't like this argument because of the whole "guns serve no useful purpose" bit, I would again point you to our "paranoid" founders that believed that guns DO serve such a fundamentally useful purpose that they ENSURED in no uncertain terms, so that the RIGHT to have and BEAR them "shall not be infringed." Look up what "infringed" means, and then explain to me exactly where you have wiggle room to "ban" ANY form of firearm.
Of course, you'll respond with the lame, hoary old argument: "Well, then you must be advocating that the average citizen should have the right to own a tank, nukes, or anything." And this reductio ad absurdum is supposed to show that the 2nd amendment really IS ambiguous, and that "infringements" of SOME sort "only make sense."
It's beyond the scope of THIS already lengthy post to answer that one, although I'm happy to do so in another post if it is desired. The reductio does not go through, and the argument does not work.
TYRANNY is what you must ALWAYS fear in your government, NOT that it "won't do its job" in keeping you safe."
The bottom line is this. Recently the Supreme Court asked the most fateful question in American history: "If the federal government can do this [Obamacare], then what can the federal government not do?"
NOTE the question! I cannot OVERemphasize its importance. It WAS the most important question asked since the founding of the United States, because its answer would DEFINE what being "proud to be an American" would MEAN going forward!
And the Supreme Court answered that question in the most fateful way in American history, when it in effect said, "The federal government CAN DO ANYTHING in the guise of a 'tax' or under the umbrella of the interstate commerce clause."
This is NOT about Obamacare or whether I like it or don't. The context of the question is virtually irrelevant! It is the QUESTION and its ANSWER that matters!!!
Understand this clearly: Since that decision, we live in an era that our founders did not believe WOULD happen in this nation, an era in which THE PEOPLE themselves would applaud a slide into a "legal" tyranny in which the VERY thing that both the federalists AND the anti-federalists decried has happened: UNLIMITED federal government power.
That decision EXPLICITLY thrust us into the legally-ACKNOWLEDGED era of federal tyranny.
Only the fact that the government has (so far, and for most citizens) APPEARED to be a "benevolent tyrant" has kept people from realizing the implications of recent events.
But, people, we DO NOT live in a free state ANY MORE. Our most fundamental freedoms, freedoms that even a generation ago would not have been IMAGINED to erode, are now gone forever.
And for what? SAFETY??? As if! As IF the government can keep you SAFE!
NOT its ROLE, people!
And do you REALLY want it to try? Apparently in SOME contexts, the ones that don't "affect you" too inconveniently! "Take away 'our' guns, because I don't feel any need to have one myself. But leave my car alone! And, damn it, you had BETTER get me cheap gasoline with which to run it HOWEVER and WHENEVER I please."
Don't talk out of one side of your mouth about "carnage" in one context, and UTTERLY ignore it in MANY others!
What about the EPIDEMIC of fat kids. These irresponsible parents heap a LIFETIME of misery upon their kids by making them fat, and then the fat adults will drain our health-care system and ultimately die young! It's CRIMINAL!
I know I would MUCH rather die in a "horrible" way in a death-from-above car crash, be shot to death, or die climbing than to live out a FAT LIFE! And talk about the "carnage" to innocent kids to be saddled with FAT their whole lives thanks to these ignorant, incompetent (usually fat themselves) "parents" that never should have been ALLOWED to have kids in the first place.
Over the top? Well, I guess it depends on whether you consider the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of annual deaths that are ENTIRELY preventable to constitute "carnage." I guess death by UTTERLY preventable heart attack is somehow "necessary" carnage, while death by nut-job shooting is "unnecessary" and therefore so, SO tragic.
If you really DO care about the "carnage" being visited upon our kids, then REALLY do something about it. Put your money where your mouths are, and quit risking everybody's lives by driving. INSIST the the government devote its might resources to the creation of a system of public transportation that exceeds the interstate highway system.
And quit making FAT so readily available! I mean, give me a BREAK! You're going to let people that you can SEE are utterly irresponsible eaters buy and FEED TO THEIR KIDS anything they please? How DARE you? Don't you CARE about THESE kids? What about the NATIONAL TRAGEDY in front of our faces in this context?
Fat vouchers! We need fat vouchers NOW! Japan has implemented a maximum waist-size law, and WE need one too!!!
Furthermore, you should INSIST that WHENEVER people congregate, they be rendered comatose, so that there is NO possibility of them hurting each other. You want SAFETY, then go whole-hog. Quit being mealy-mouthed about it. If safety CAN, in principle, be achieved, the MAKE IT HAPPEN.
Otherwise, ALL you have is a slide from our current TYRANNY into DESPOTIC TYRANNY, which is the next step in the very slide you touched on the surface highlights of. And in that whole process, you will NOT get safety!
As is SO often said on this site, ur gonna die. Probably horribly. And if you think that GOVERNMENT has ANY power to keep that from happening, you are sadly, pathetically mistaken.
You'll say I'm over the top. I'm not. Fat vouchers, or their equivalent, is on the way. And the bottom line is that the government will now, with Supreme Court blessing do WHATEVER IT PLEASES. And the only "bar" it will, for now, make any attempt to clear is to offer some argument, however LAME and unsustainable, to the effect that its edicts make us "more safe."
Our founders cared NOT ONE WHIT about our "safety," and they did not believe that THE PEOPLE would so magnify "safety" as to give up INALIENABLE RIGHTS to "achieve" it.
Our founders believed in THE PEOPLE. They believed that THE PEOPLE would not willfully and knowingly throw their fundamental freedoms under the bus. They never imagined a "gimme" society that sacrifices personal responsibility and rights EVERY DAY on the alter of MERE SAFETY. These were people of CONVICTION, and they really DID put their lives on the line echoing no MERE IDEAL, when they defied the most powerful empire on Earth with the phrase: Give me liberty, or give me death. And THEY revolted over grievances FAR less odious than what we now tolerate every single day. These were principled people that were willing to IDEALISTICALLY put their very lives, and the lives of their families on the line in defense of principle.
Honestly, I've face death many times, and I'll stand up now to say the same thing as Patrick Henry. NO more erosion of freedom. We DO live under tyranny NOW. The mere fact that it is a welfare-state tyranny, that babies us with assurances of prosperity and safety, makes it only a more insidious form of tyranny. And our founders did envision the POSSIBILITY of a "legally established" tyranny (they called it "majority faction" in Federalist 10), and they ADVOCATED armed revolt against it, while building into the constitution the MEANS by which citizens COULD revolt.
If armed revolt is in fact futile, then all is lost. But just remember what the Mujahideen accomplished (with largely world war II era weapons) against the most powerful ground force on Earth at that time. Don't sell revolts so short so fast. It's amazing what fighting idealists can accomplish in the face of the odds.
Are we at the point of armed revolt now? Is that what I'm advocating. In order, the answers are: I'm not sure exactly where that line gets crossed, and no. But the POINT is that our founders wanted to ensure that THE PEOPLE could, in principle, rise up against majority faction (which is going to be BY DEFINITION a "legal" tyranny) in ARMED revolt. This is no "yeah right" pipe dream, unless you really don't take seriously what guerrilla uprisings have historically been able to accomplish. And, make NO mistake, we DO now live in an era of federal tyranny. If anything, the government's attack on the second amendment NOW, in the wake of this recent Supreme Court ruling as to its UNLIMITED power, is just another reason to be deeply suspicious rather than the converse of being so QUICK to give up such a FOUNDING right!
Kids are killed, horribly, senselessly, and tragically. But GUNS are not even a significant problem compared to the others that you don't want to touch! So, let's have some PERSPECTIVE here, people. You've got FAR bigger fish to fry than to be concerned about "gun carnage!"
I'm sure this very post will get me on some government watch list, as the NSA has now been revealed to CAPTURE every bit of electronic data flowing through our wires, so that they can flag and process just such things as this. GOOD! I relish it. And the fact that MOST of you, that call yourselves "climbers" (with all that has always implied to ME), and yet you drink the kool-aid of the safety-seeking masses, is the most PATHETIC and tragic of ALL.
WAKE UP and look at how you are being manipulated into not just relinquishing your freedoms but instead HANDING them away like they are DISEASED and must be put FAR from you. You have a founder-foreseen, constitutionally-guaranteed RIGHT to HAVE and BEAR arms. And that right was acknowledged (not granted) by the founders BECAUSE it may ultimately be your LAST and ONLY HOPE against tyranny. And the fact that most of you LIKE our present form of tyranny is mind-bogglingly sad, even tragic, at a level that puts this present shooting tragedy TO SHAME!
Oh, and I write this as a man that doesn't even own a gun, hasn't shot one in any context in decades, and has NO relation whatsoever to the NRA. I write this as a man well-schooled in political science/philosophy at the graduate level. And I've READ the Federalist Papers (and the Anti-Federalist Papers). You should read them too, IF you can handle the tight, principled, abstract argumentation that was the level of thought in the NEWSPAPERS of that day (not the sixth-grade drivel we see now).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:13am PT
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Are you aware that in most schools, there are "resource officers" who are armed? They are police officers who work in schools. They are trained and armed. Already done.
http://www.nasro.org/ <---a website to check out (I'm doing so now)
Now as far as arming teachers...I can only speak to university faculty (some of whom are already armed) and I know many that should in no way have a gun! Just a month ago on the Univ of Colo campus there was a gun incident. And "oops" my gun went off while showing it to a colleague. The colleague was wounded. Glad it wasn't a 5 year old that took that bullet.
Apparently CT doesn't have teachers packing guns....And someone shooting himself is a weak argument to not have them.
Again, these need to be qualified, trained gun operators. Teachers can do this, some of them.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SPEECH WAS AWESOME!!!
One of the BEST Spiritual speeches EVER!
He REALLY spooke to my Soul.
He even said "Soul" 4 times.
And reverted to the Bible, like 10 times.
He actually quoted Jesus!
i'm SO Stoked to have a Black Christian in the White House!
Now if we could get a Big Black Southern Baptist Chior behind him we could have a Revival!!!
God Bless You Mr.President Obama..
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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With all the grammar corrections (on ST no less!) I think jghedge might be an english teacher.
That would explain a lot,..
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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Just playing the percentages, Fritz!
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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Guns ARE the problem.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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Everytime some idiot legally buys an arsenal and guns down people en masse, gun nuts come up with the same hollow rhetoric about "freedom" and how it's intrinsically tied to gun ownership. I don't believe it anymore. People live just fine without unrestricted access to guns in many other western countries. Those places do not experience the level of gun violence we do. That is a fact.
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Will_P
Trad climber
Melbourne, Victoria
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:58am PT
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Wow, Madbolter, what a wild rant! Proof that spending too many consecutive weeks on a Valley wall warps the mind? Or just too much exposure to heavy metals over the years? Whichever. The tyranny you feel you live other is that of your armed brethren. All you have to fear is your fellow citizens. Also, such use of capitals makes it very difficult to take your writing seriously.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:01am PT
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Since guns are not the problem, it's probably safe to assume that had Adam Lanza gone to the school unarmed there would still be 26 innocent dead people there.
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Will_P
Trad climber
Melbourne, Victoria
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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And again, no need to overturn the 2nd - the wording of it leaves room for interpretation:
"A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
Simply interpret it as strictly intended, and - bingo. Since the well regulated militia is no longer needed, or since it is your local police, neither is the right to keep and bear arms.
And that, friends, to this overseas observer, is the end of the whole 2nd amendment argument. Although to clarify, Healy, I'd say, rather than 'leaves room for interpretation', it leaves no room for argument. You have a well regulated militia; therefore you don't all need to be able to have guns.
So, gun nuts, what other arguments you got? Seriously, leaving the 2nd amendment aside, why would introducing laws that make it impossible for a person to legally own anything more than a bolt-action rifle of medium calibre, or a single-barrelled shotgun, or a specific approved sports target shooting pistol or longarm - why would that impinge on your life? And why would it not be worth the minimum of one life saved?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:10am PT
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Will P,
Since when is "impinge on your life" the limit of government coercion we should be willing to accept?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:49am PT
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Are we to conclude from the tragedy on Friday, and the 'discussion' here, that many Americans worship violence, fear and greed?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:52am PT
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MADBOLTR
"I know I would MUCH rather die in a "horrible" way in a death-from-above car crash, be shot to death, or die climbing than to live out a FAT LIFE! And talk about the "carnage" to innocent kids to be saddled with FAT their whole lives thanks to these ignorant, incompetent (usually fat themselves) "parents" that never should have been ALLOWED to have kids in the first place."
___
These sound like words of an Anti-Evolutionist??
You lost me here.., maybe i'll beback later to finish?
Jus Starv"in
BB
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:04am PT
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If we take the 2nd Amendment literally and in the context that the Founders wrote it we could outlaw all guns that aren't 18th century muskets and still fall within an originalist interpretation of the law.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:08am PT
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Nice post, Hillrat. You screamed, whined and ranted about all the screaming, whining and ranting. Excellent read.
Every once in a while some dumbass hits the throttle instead of the brake, and whoops... another tragic accident where some dude in a pickup mows down two dozen people in an "accident".
Funny thing about that...anytime that happens we actually DO something to try to reduce the chances of it happening again....unless it's done with a gun.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:09am PT
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Countdown to Hillrat saying "sheeple."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:51am PT
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Madbolter: If armed revolt is in fact futile, then all is lost.
Then all was lost decades ago - completely and utterly lost. In fact, those days are so long gone they only exist in aging white male fantasies and in a failure to recognize the nation we have become.
And Madbolter, that was all well reasoned, but both highly biased and originalistly activist at the same time. But, while your general take on "the founding fathers" comes as no real surprise, your tract on Obamacare is dramatically shrill bordering on irrational.
And I've yet to hear a single soul explain why 100 million guns wouldn't be more than enough to serve the purposes of the current highly-activist interpretation of the second amendment.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:02am PT
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You keep dreaming dude, republicans aren't going to see the inside of the Whiteyhouse or a senate majority again in your lifetime so long as they keep thinking like you.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:02am PT
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So the argument that the loony right brings to the table is that if all the teachers had been armed, they would have stopped this pronto.
Perhaps not.
But we don't have to speculate.
We can look at the Empire State Building shooting. One guy shot his supervisor in the head. A bunch of police were there, and they shot the guy, when he raised his gun to shoot at them.
9 other people were shot, all uninvolved bystanders.
Every one of them was shot by the police, not the perp.
If this is what happens with professional gunmen, who regularly train and shoot, what is likely to happen with a bunch of amateurs with guns?
http://wizbangblog.com/2012/08/27/video-shows-police-shootout-with-empire-state-building-shooter/
At close range the fact that the two officers manage to miss their target so many times is concerning. Bullets must have been literally flying everywhere. The suspect and officers couldn’t have been any more than ten feet apart once the officers opened fire, but of the sixteen shots they took more went into bystanders (or hit near enough to them that they sustained injuries) than went into the suspect.
Not to take anything away from the valiant efforts of the officers (who were in a potentially life threatening situation), but that kind of shooting performance is concerning, especially in light of the fact that the suspect never fired a shot.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:05am PT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:10am PT
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The ridiculous proliferation of, and ease of access to, weapons is a key enabling factor in the situation we now find ourselves.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:16am PT
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Americans will eventually figure out that all that unchecked liberalism has to offer is poverty.
Events in our near future will be very instructive in that regard.
LOL
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:20am PT
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I know it ain't funny, but I had to giggle when I read Donald Thompson's droning fiddle-faddle. He's yet another poor, deluded republican dinosaur wandering lost in the wilderness of American politics, bemoaning the loss of values in our nation (paging Ward and June Cleaver!), bewildered by the fact that Mitt Zombie was rejected by a majority of the electorate. He is precisely the kind of lost soul that Maureen Dowd described so perfectly:
"Although Stuart Stevens, the Romney strategist, now claims that Mitt “captured the imagination of millions” and ran “with a natural grace,” there was very little chance that the awkward gazillionaire was ever going to be president. Yet strangely, Republicans are still gobsmacked by their loss, grasping at straws like Sandy as an excuse.
Some G.O.P. House members continue to try to wrestle the president over the fiscal cliff. Romney wanders in a daze, his hair not perfectly gelled. And his campaign advisers continue to express astonishment that a disastrous campaign, convention and candidate, as well as a lack of familiarity with what Stevens dismissively calls “whiz-bang turnout technologies,” could possibly lead to defeat.
Who would ever have thought blacks would get out and support the first black president? Who would ever have thought women would shy away from the party of transvaginal probes? Who would ever have thought gays would work against a party that treated them as immoral and subhuman? Who would have ever thought young people would desert a party that ignored science and hectored on social issues? Who would ever have thought Latinos would scorn a party that expected them to finish up their chores and self-deport?
And who would have ever thought that people like me would get f*#king fed up with having classrooms full of first-graders getting executed? Of the argument by people like Donald Thompson that mass murders of our children was that price we all were going to have to pay to ensure his right to own a f*#king arsenal?
I know this guy's type. A pathalogical Obama hater. The kind of wing-nut you'll find out there shrieking that Obama is a muslim, not an american citizen, whatever. Give The Donald enough time and he'll be insisting that Obama himself pulled the trigger.
What an assclown.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:28am PT
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In my lifetime? Do you really , really so overestimate the appeal of of your failed ideology that you could really think it will be in power that long?
No, I just have faith in slightly more than half of today's republicans' complete inability to live a reality-based life. So much so that the next three republican primaries will basically be bloodbaths or that they will fragment into two parties. The demographics just aren't on your side so long as republicans think like you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:40am PT
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Donald, dude, every time a republican says "free stuff", a democratic angel gets his wings.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:47am PT
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OK Donald, you got us. We are ill-informed, living with blinders on, utterly ignorant of the meltdowns in Greece and Spain, impervious to the reality that giveaway socialism destroys free enterprise and ruins economies.
I hope we can all safely assume that you are at this very moment carefully crafting letters to your congressional delegation, urging them to provide immediate mental health care for kids like the Connecticut shooter. And God forbid any females in your life are ever assaulted. If so, make sure they've got some asprin to squeeze between their knees.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:58am PT
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Oh, you mean the debt that republicans' unfunded wars and tax cuts created? You'll notice it's being worked on despite republican's attempts to avoid doing anything.
America's Debt-To-GDP Hits A 6-Year Low
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:01am PT
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Arguing with Donald is a waste of time. His elevator doesn't go to the top floor.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:02am PT
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The best part is he doesn't know which way his elevator is going.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:19am PT
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God, I love it when you talk wingnut - it's exactly why any attempt by the republican party to stop its descent into delusional and irrelevant fundamentalism is utterly doomed. The faster it happens, the faster we take the House back.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:48am PT
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Oh, yes, back to the "no more need of a militia" song and dance. It just has one problem: It doesn't recognize the underlying logic of the amendment.
Logically speaking, the "militia rationale" exists in the antecedent position of a conditional relations, so it's functionally irrelevant. The POINT of the amendment from the framers' perspective was the logical consequent: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The common and widespread focus upon the first part of the amendment is a fundamental and logical mistake! The antecedent is a "nicety," while the consequent is the weighty part.
Logically speaking, if the antecedent rationale is true, then it's a sufficient condition for the consequent.
However, also logically speaking, if the antecedent is false, the consequent remains unthreatened. In conditional relations, you cannot falsify a consequent by falsifying an antecedent. Logic 101.
The fact that a rationale is built into the amendment (with all its modern ambiguities) really IS irrelevant, because the framers INTENDED the consequent to be right where it is, unassailable whether or not the antecedent holds.
So, let's turn to the content of the consequent, the part of the amendment the framers actually made weighty.
First, "the people." Is there ANY doubt about what body (the people, the states, the feds) THAT refers to? This is the same PEOPLE that the Constitution perpetually refers to throughout. It is US, all of US as individuals and groups (groups smaller than states). There are three groups referenced in the Constitution, and "the people" is utterly unambiguous throughout.
And "infringed" is unambiguous. The government MAY NOT infringe, in other words restrict in ANY WAY the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
So, the consequent of the second amendment is utterly unambiguous, and it is unthreatened by whatever you have to make of the antecedent rationale of the amendment. "The people" is utterly unambiguous. Regardless of what you make of the whole antecedent, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" stands, all by itself, regardless of rationale, as long as the second amendment holds.
So, unless you are prepared to amend the Constitution to modify or get rid of the second amendment, you're stuck with the average citizen having a constitutional RIGHT to "keep and bear arms." And, this is an unrestricted right.
All this talk about banning certain sorts of firearms is utterly unsustainable from a constitutional perspective. Bans are "infringements," plain and simple. So, if you want bans or any other sorts of infringements, then you need a constitutional amendment, plain and simple. A mere law won't get the job done.
Finally, the founders simply documented certain rights they believed we have inalienably. Government does not GRANT these rights (else it could take them away, as most of you are advocating). Constitutions do not GRANT these rights (or changing a constitution could take them away). No, our constitution is very different from any previous to it insofar as our founders recognized that "the people" just HAVE certain rights, and the bill of rights was intended to document them NOT grant them.
Before you keep babbling about things you clearly know nothing about, READ the Federalist Papers, starting with number 10, and TRY to learn at least a superficial bit about theory of legitimate government.
Don't take my CAPS for it. LOL Read for yourselves; it's quite accessible. Then look in the mirror, see the majority faction for what it is, and quit thinking that you HAVE any power to take away an inalienable right. When ONE of you anti-gun-NUTS can rationally discuss Federalist 10 related to this context, you'll finally have something worth talking about.
Meanwhile, try spending a FRACTION of this energy on solving some REAL problems of carnage in this country, starting with things that, statistically speaking, are FAR more sweeping and pervasive problems than gun violence.
Or, just ride your hobby horses off into the sunset, ever clueless about the freedoms you once had but don't even recognize as missing. And ever dishonest about your willingness to sacrifice children on the alters of your various conveniences.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:11am PT
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haha good god what was that
madbolter spewed Meanwhile, try spending a FRACTION of this energy on solving some REAL problems of carnage in this country, starting with things that, statistically speaking, are FAR more sweeping and pervasive problems than gun violence.
madbolter1: 20 dead first graders = not a "real problem"
(Homicide is the #2 or #3 killer for men ages 15-34 in this country. It's #4 for ages 5-15. Let me know if that is "statistically significant" or not.)
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:31am PT
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Your antecedent/consequent rationale is BS, and you know it. If there was a period in the second amendment, you'd have a point. If the antecedent is invalid, the consequent is unsupported. Even still, how do laws to mandate responsible possession infringe on that possession?
Care to mention any of those "things that, statistically speaking, are FAR more sweeping and pervasive problems than gun violence", that are independent of an individual's own choices? Heart disease, smoking, obesity, even traffic accidents are consequences of personal choice, being innocently shot by a firearm is not.
TE
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raymond phule
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:34am PT
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In which countries is it reasonable possibly that a 20 year old non criminal can get hold of the type of weapon that where used in this mass killing?
I really doubt that it is possibly in any European country.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:38am PT
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I really doubt that it is possibly in any European country.
Yes but only because their island culture prevents it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:56am PT
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The NRA is smart enough to know they'll get dogpiled if they say anything other than "we mourn for the loss of these children."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:08am PT
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even traffic accidents are consequences of personal choice
Ruhheeeely??? Tell that to the woman and her two kids JUST before they experienced death-from-above in a traffic accident CAUSED by a negligent person using a deadly weapon. Tell them, "You know, you CHOSE the death that is about to befall you." ROFL
I THINK what you are trying to say is that we willingly take certain risks just by engaging in certain activities.
But if that's what you're trying to say, then the risk of violence in any public place is a very tiny risk we are mostly willing to take.
And referring to the death toll by homicide in certain demographics puts you at REAL risk for going racist all up in the hood. Careful now.
Are you really going to let some small segments of society skew the figures and THEREBY make your sweeping, general case regarding guns? Careful!
Oh, and a period has nothing to do with anything logically speaking in this context. My conditional argument is not BS, and YOU know it. Well, you would if you knew anything about basic logic.
The amendment is in conditional form, and thus the supposed falsity of the antecedent is irrelevant to the truth of the consequent. To a limited extent, the claim that the consequent is "unsupported" is correct. Ironically, to float that claim, one must first grant that what I said about the logical structure is correct. Now, granting that, what does "unsupported" mean?
It means NOTHING more than if the consequent had just been stated in bald form without any attempt to "support it" at all. Its being "unsupported" has exactly the same logical weight as "unassailable." And in the context of the Bill of Rights, the founders clearly intended unassailable.
Until somebody can completely overturn the founder's fundamental paranoia about tyrannical government, the real reason for the second amendment remains unchallenged.
And, until somebody can show that banning things (substances, activities, etc.) actually DOES keep people from using/doing them (alcohol, drugs, homosexuality, etc., all of which have been BANNED to no avail), then from a strictly empirical point of view ALL you accomplish by banning guns is make a lot of people into criminals that presently aren't. Yet another utterly failed "war on" something! LOL
I know that for my part I'll suddenly have a deep yearning to be civilly disobedient in a way that I presently don't care to be!
And those of you that SO much want the USA to become just another euro-socialist-democracy, you should move to and live out your days in one of THOSE. THIS country was not founded to be such, and I, for one, have NO interest in sitting by silently while we head that direction.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:51am PT
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madbolter sarcasted Ruhheeeely??? Tell that to the woman and her two kids JUST before they experienced death-from-above in a traffic accident CAUSED by a negligent person using a deadly weapon. Tell them, "You know, you CHOSE the death that is about to befall you." ROFL
I THINK what you are trying to say is that we willingly take certain risks just by engaging in certain activities.
So you just refuted and then restated exactly what he just said. Maybe you should step away from the keyboard until that second cup of coffee wears off.
And those of you that SO much want the USA to become just another euro-socialist-democracy
It's true. We'd like to be one of those inferior countries where 29,965 less people die to guns every year.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:57am PT
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Since we're gonna go all statistical now, let's look at how ridiculous the state of affairs really is with gun ownership.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/guns-america-statistical/story?id=17939758#.UM8rFG9QWGU
Amazingly, there are more federally-recognized gun outlets than grocery stores, more than McDonald's stores, and over 8.5 MILLION new firearms available for sale in the USA each year. Since guns are not "perishable," the new guns are finding homes alongside existing guns in most cases.
And, according to a CNN report, there are something like 310 MILLION legally-owned guns in the USA, as of 2009 (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/politics/btn-guns-in-america/index.html);.
But, according to a number of sites (here's just one of many), there are only about 250 million registered cars in the USA (http://usa.org/cars/index.html);.
So, the number of legally owned guns significantly outstrips the number of legally-registered cars!
Are we gun infatuated as a nation? It SURE seems so!
But, now, this is going to take a turn that most of you aren't expecting. So far, these figures play right into your perspective.
But wait!
The death toll by car is on average about 4 times the death toll by gun in a given year.
Furthermore, cars kill indiscriminately, while gun violence is generally very predictable and segmented (except for those rare nut-job, spectacular events that make all the news BECAUSE they are so rare and spectacular).
Various official sites collate all this data, and they have gun violence/homicides as a primarily inner-city, drug/gang-related, 6-to-1 black perpetrator/victim phenomenon.
So, in the interests of not putting forth another huge tome, I'll just jump to the chase. In short....
All things being equal (which they are not), the odds of the average American being killed by a gun are ridiculously low, while the odds of being killed by a car are at least four times higher. And that's with FAR more guns in existence than there are cars.
Now, to the "not equal" part: your odds of being killed by a gun go down HUGELY if you are not a black, gang-banger living in a few violence-ridden inner cities. THIS violence is NOT "equal opportunity!" It is largely targeted and predictable.
So, take the about 11,000 annual deaths by gun, distribute those according to actual, known gun-violence demographics; and what you ACTUALLY have (with the rare nut-jobs as notable exceptions) is a vanishingly small "risk" that "all those guns" in the US are going to turn out to be some threat to YOU or anybody you know!
Even throwing the rare, spectacular nut-jobs into the mix, the risk is vanishingly tiny! Statistically speaking, neither you nor anybody you know is going to be hurt, much less killed by a gun. But, statistically speaking, you or somebody you know is going to be seriously hurt or killed in a car accident.
With the sheer number of annual gun sales, coupled with the sheer number of guns in existence in the US, it is actually remarkable that there is not MORE gun violence and gun-related homicide! And it is STRIKING that gun violence actually touches very FEW people outside of a limited and predictable demographic.
It seems that MOST gun owners are FAR more responsible than MOST car owners, considering that both are deadly weapons. We're actually safer around all these guns than we are around all these CARS!
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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raymond phule - I really doubt its possibly in any European country. Actually, he did try to purchase them here a day before, but was told he had to wait a week (not defending or taking sides, just pointing out). So, it probably cost his mothers life (just speculating) since she, perhaps, intervened in some way.
sullly - Look into what's up with the white male in the US. The very same day of the Sandy Hook massacre, an 18 y.o. Hispanic youth, who is now being held on a 1M bail, had planned to do a similar thing at his high school. He had guns & bombs and planned on trapping a bunch of student in an auditorium and then was going to blow them up. It backfired when the student[s] he was going to do it with (he threatened there lives if they backed down) went to authorities. (but it does seem to be primarily W/M)!
Although, here in San Diego, in 179, a 16 y.o. girl (Brenda Spencer) who stated that "I don't like Mondays!" when she was asked, "Why?", opened fire on an elementary school down the street from her house and killed 2 adults and injured 8 children & 1 policeman. The Boomtown Rats (Bob Geldof) immediately came out with what was to become a #1 hit, "I Don't Like Mondays!". Pretty tacky, etc, if you ask me.
And another guy (46?) had similar plans for last Saturday, but was apprehended before he could carry them out.
edit: btw, this is my first post on this thread. just posted now because i felt you might not be aware of one or more of these points. :)
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:02am PT
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while gun violence is generally very predictable and segmented
Gun violence is predictable? Got cites for that?
And the inner-city, cocaine, black perpetrator comments your provided are from the early 1990s.
Also, you need to consider exposure. How much time to people spend in/near cars? Is it equivalent to the time people with guns have them out futzing with them?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:05am PT
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It's true. We'd like to be one of those inferior countries where 29,965 less people die to guns every year.
Where are you getting that number?
CNN cites just over 11,000 gun-caused homicides per year (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/politics/btn-guns-in-america/index.html);.
That figure is lifted directly from the official CDC site (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm);.
Looks to me like you're making it out to be about 3 times as bad as it is.
And, as I just posted above, this gun-related violence is largely limited to a very small and well-known demographic. The average, non-gang-banger American simply isn't at significant risk of gun-related violence.
Taking a few spectacular cases as evidence of a problem is like "Wow, that's a horrific way to die! Being eaten by a shark! Oh GOD, kill them ALL and eliminate shark-chowing death once and for all!" Or, "Aren't we glad we don't live in Australia, a country with a much higher shark-chowing death rate than us?"
Ridiculous! People, let's try to get some measure of perspective here. The fact that some terrible things happen to a FEW people now and then does NOT get you an "epidemic," nor is it cause to get your panties in a bunch. What happened is TERRIBLE, no doubt. But "an epidemic of gun violence" has nothing to do with it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:14am PT
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As far as the founders not being gods, I wholeheartedly agree.
That said, you'd better have specific evidence to show how they went wrong in specific cases, because they thought this stuff out at a level that MOST of you literally cannot comprehend.
I say again, until somebody can show that the founders were illegitimately paranoid about tyrannical government, then you'd better cut them some slack about the second amendment. There is ample evidence what that amendment was designed to protect against, and some goofball publishing an op-ed piece in a newspaper doesn't get ANY traction with somebody educated as I am on this very subject. We DO know what they feared and what they intended with the second amendment. It's no mystery that needs oracle-interpretation or "channeling" to figure out.
I myself, and many people I know ARE getting concerned to the point of distress about the tyranny THIS government HAS become. And that's all recent. I'm not some conspiracy theorist, and, as I said before, I don't own a gun and haven't shot one in decades. I'm not some "right wing," NRA pundit. My ONLY dog in this fight is that I believe that the founders knew what they were doing with the second amendment, and the empirical evidence to sustain the frothy claim that we've got an "epidemic of gun violence" on our hands just isn't there.
We've got an obesity epidemic on our hands. We've got a lot more idiots driving cars than should be (still FAR from an epidemic of car-related deaths). We've REALLY got an epidemic of uneducated stupidity on our hands in this country. But gun-violence? Nah, that's a far cry from an "issue" to get all worked up over.
We're 1/3 of a BILLION people! About 11,000 gun-related deaths in this country is NOTHING, statistically speaking. So, again, let's try to find some perspective, shall we?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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When was the last time you read about a car taking out 28 kids/people, in one fell swoop???
So the per-incident number has crossed some nebulous threshold in your psyche? Put the WHOLE thing into perspective. A school bus crash HAS done more damage in one fell swoop, actually.
It's the "violence" part that troubles you... that someBODY went whacked on these kids. I GET that intuition! Really, I do.
But being RATIONAL just means putting emotional intuition aside and finding an accurate perspective. Your threshold doesn't indicate ANYTHING about the objective facts of the NON-epidemic of "gun violence" actually going on in this country.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:20am PT
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And, this is an unrestricted right.
So Madbolter1 thinks the gunman was entitled to full auto weapons, anything he could carry.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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Gun violence is predictable? Got cites for that?
"Predictable" in a statistical sense. And, in that sense, yes I provide those already.
And the inner-city, cocaine, black perpetrator comments your provided are from the early 1990s.
Incorrect. Actually I'm citing stats from 2009.
And regarding "exposure," THAT'S the whole point here! Cars are FAR more of an ongoing threat than guns. There ARE far more guns, but we literally just aren't "exposed" to them nearly as much.
But that's the OPPOSITE realization as the one needed by the "epidemic of gun violence" proponent.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:24am PT
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We need cars. We don't need guns. Look at the UK.
Yes, LET'S look at the UK. Seems that we revolted from the UK bitd, and our founders worried about the same thing that MANY of us presently worry about: tyrannical government.
When you say "we don't need guns," you are begging the question!
The FOUNDERS believed that we needed guns, and, in fact, put in our most cherished document that we needed guns. They had GOOD reason to think that. And neither you nor anybody else on this thread has even STARTED to make the case that they were just paranoid on this subject.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:28am PT
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Saying that 12000 gun deaths are acceptable because of auto accident stats is ludicrous.
I'm not saying it's "acceptable." Wow!
I'm saying that it's a tempest in a teapot, statistically speaking. I'm saying that MOST of you on this thread have adopted a PC, totally knee-jerk reaction to a problem that, while indeed a problem, is a SMALL, even TINY problem comparatively speaking.
I'm saying that you advocate overturning one of our original amendments to our most cherished rule of law on the basis of terrible non-evidence empirically-speaking, and on the basis of virtual ignorance of why that amendment was put in place.
I'm saying to take a deep breath, calm down, and quit REACTING. Instead, THINK it through sans emotions, and get a grip.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:35am PT
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I agree Richard.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:37am PT
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madbolter said I'm saying that it's a tempest in a teapot, statistically speaking. I'm saying that MOST of you on this thread have adopted a PC, totally knee-jerk reaction to a problem that, while indeed a problem, is a SMALL, even TINY problem comparatively speaking.
Tens of thousands of people dying to a completely preventable problem is a problem. There is no "kneejerk" reaction here. This isn't the first time this has happened. It's not the second or the third. The problem with gun-nuts is that the only people they ever talk to about gun control is other gun nuts so they think that anyone who is talking about gun control means "banning all guns." Come out of your NRA propaganda world.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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Sorry - 31 school shootings since Columbine is significant risk. You have the pro-gun lobby now saying there should be armed teachers. Why, if there's no significant risk? Even they admit it.
Neither was the average jet passenger at significant risk of being hijacked before 9/11 - doesn't matter. It was an unacceptable risk. So are 310 million guns.
Seriously, friend, do you CLIMB? Do you understand the NOTION of statistical risk AT ALL?
Your last couple of paragraphs indicate to me that you really should just settle into your warm little bed and never get out of it.
Those of us that want to LIVE actually DO all sorts of things that carry with them HUGE levels of risk that are FAR, FAR, FARRRRRR beyond the empirically-demonstrated risk of being the victim of gun violence.
The ONLY way government is going to reduce the "unacceptable risks" you have cited above is to literally become a Minority Report, pre-crime, totalitarian regime (and, actually, we are almost there already anyway). What you would advocate in order to "eliminate unacceptable risk" IS a full-blown police state.
BTW, of note here is that, according to the CDC for 2009 (latest statistics on their site), there were about 4,000 non-gun-caused homicides! So, literally 1/4 of all homicides were NON-gun-caused. So, even if you COULD legislate away ALL gun-caused homicides (which the various "wars on __" demonstrate you CAN'T), a "lot" of killing is still going to take place.
If 12,000 gets your panties in a bunch, is 4,000 okay? If not, then WHAT are you going to do to eliminate THAT "unacceptable risk?" Make murder illegal?
Not only do such totalitarian states NOT eliminate risk, risk actually increases, and only freedom is eliminated.
Seriously, get a GRIP here. There IS no "epidemic" you need to react to.
Something bad happened. A nut-job went whacked. It is a tragedy for the victim's families. It's not a tragedy for YOU. It's a statistical anomaly for YOU! Get over it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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There was a non-epidemic of hijackings too. 4 of them changed air travel.
MY point exactly!
Our government is EXPERT at turning a few spectacular incidents into "a problem" that can ONLY be solved by them taking away just a few more of our basic freedoms in the name of safety.
They DON'T make us safer! They only make us more dependent on government, less personally responsible, and MORE afraid of "unacceptable risks" that are really statistically insignificant!
I would be VERY happy to see air travel return to 1970's-era security. Even in this (whooooaaaa!) post-9/11 era of "terrorist threat," I would take my chances in a heartbeat compared to how air travel is now. I don't live my life scared of "unacceptable risks" of this nature. And I have no sympathy for those that DO!
IS this the land of the free and the home of the BRAVE, or is it not?
And nobody has yet even STARTED to respond to my very plausible terrorist scenario in which a suicide bomber takes out the whole LINE (many hundreds) of people BEFORE the security checkpoint at a major-city airline terminal.
NOBODY is going to keep you safe from such threats. NO police state of ANY magnitude can save you from such things.
Man up, and take your chances. Meanwhile, quit wanting ME and hundreds of millions of others to give up constitutionally-guaranteed and well-thought-out rights just because YOU are one of the enslaved and timid.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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I can't believe I'm going to say this, but
where's the kook with the ponies?
Bring on the ponies!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:49am PT
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Scenarios:
An individual in a Suburban gets on a major highway headed in the wrong direction. Kills a family of 8 headed the otherway in a minivan.
Someone drives their car into a crowded mall. Kills 10.
What's the first question someone asks?
"What kind of SUV was it? Does anyone need an SUV that big?!!?"
No, the question they ask is:
"Were they drinking/on drugs?"
And yet that question is absent from these cases. Multiple and recent cases of otherwise non-violent young males completely losing their minds and murdering strangers before killing themselves.
We can solve this problem. Find common threads and you will have your answer and solution.
Enough of this pro-gun vs anti-gun bullsh1t. Stop with the political nonsense. Learn to think.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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maddolter1 said:
"I say again, until somebody can show that the founders were illegitimately paranoid about tyrannical government, then you'd better cut them some slack about the second amendment."
Dude, go take a few more history classes or do a bit more reading up on the subject. The War for Independence was started over a tax on tea. By today's standard that is an illegitimate reason to openly rebel against one's government. Would you go to war over a fat tax on your burger?
The same can be applied to what the framers of the Constitution were thinking when they wrote the 2nd Amendment? There weren't any burgers then.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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madbolter hollered If 12,000 gets your panties in a bunch, is 4,000 okay? If not, then WHAT are you going to do to eliminate THAT "unacceptable risk?" Make murder illegal?
The best part is that madbolter thinks he's being reasonable here. We don't need an argument at all. We can just put madbolter on TV to convince everyone that it's insane for us to think we can do anything to reduce the number of gun deaths in the country. I'm glad that he isn't a cardiologist or an MPH working on heart disease. He'd be hollering "what are you going to do? Outlaw HEARTS?! It's ridiculous for us to think we can even TOUCH this problem!"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:02am PT
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12000 deaths isn't acceptable, but 12000 deaths is a tempest in a teapot. Which is it?
Okay, last post here. I've done my civic duty, with the predictable results on the taco.
Look, TRY to pay attention here. ONE death is not "acceptable" in the sense that "it's just fine and dandy," or "I'm all for it." We don't WANT people to die AT ALL!
Death itself isn't "acceptable." It's not for a cherished pet, nor for a loved-one-human-being. Death is just terrible, and it's not "acceptable."
But, that said, you have limited resources with which to try to beat it back on SOME fronts. You can't fight all fights. You can't WIN on even MOST fronts at which death attacks us.
So, you play statistical games. We ALL do. The government does. We allocate our resources and fight the fights against death that make the BEST use of our time, energy, and resources.
Meanwhile, we WEIGH "pain to gain" ratios. And there ARE worse things than death, as we climbers do know.
If you take the hard line that is so commonly floated: "If it can save even one life...," then you commit our government to shutting down EVERYTHING that could POSSIBLY entail the SLIGHTEST risk. Impossible in principle. Death is gonna happen on MANY fronts, and the WHOLE game here is to decide which fronts are fights worth fighting, all things considered.
So, there is no contradiction in saying BOTH that 26 homicides in one fell swoop is not acceptable, AND that, statistically speaking, it's a tempest in a teapot. You simply are NOT going to legislate away such risks. It's not a front on which you are going to win the "war on death."
Go after heart disease or cancer (most cases of which are life-style related), and you can eliminate a LOT of death (and a LOT more suffering pre-death)! And even then, your best bet is to educate, not legislate.
To be a citizen in the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE, you realize that the "if it can save even one life..." is fallacious and IMPOSSIBLE on the face of it. Once you mature enough to recognize that fact, THEN you can start intelligently thinking about how to allocate resources to reduce risks that can reasonably be reduced without threatening basic freedoms.
And "acceptable risk" is NOT the same thing as any particular death itself being acceptable. NO death is acceptable! But all sorts of RISKS of death ARE acceptable.
Being FREE just means being BRAVE. They go hand in hand.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:05am PT
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The common thread is mental instability...
People have been mentally unstable since we were monkeys. 20-30 years is not enough time to have any genetic drift.
What has changed with mentally unstable people?
The way we treat them today. The dangerous medications and policies around them.
Dig deeper. The answer is there.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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America is changing. No longer are the principles and ideals of the founding fathers important, no longer is the Free and Brave representative of the whole. There will be growing pains as the change takes place as those easily scared turn to the governnment for all the answers and those Free and Brave still don't believe the government can legislate problems away.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:15am PT
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12000 annual gun deaths is a "tempest in a tea pot".
But a Government take over is a REAL threat.
Not one of you God, Guns and Guts guys have made even a vaguely compelling argument to defend a need for military style weaponry. Not one. All you do is cry in the wilderness that the Government is going to try to take all your guns and that they will get your ammo first. Then typically you all go off bragging about your arsenals and proudly stroking your manhood.
Your utterly delusional to believe the US or UN is going to take ALL your guns. That is not even part of the dialogue. And to the imbecile who wants to equate climbing and going to school with a gunman as the same risk level you are an idiot. How many climbers have taken out a classroom of innocent children? We climb at our own risk and do not put innocent people at risk. None of the truly responsible gun owners that I know are crowing like the Gun Nutters on this site, None of them want assault rifles in the hands of Joe citizen. So I say again instead of being such great analogues of what we are describing as a real risk please tell me why you need these types of weapons? And don't give me the defense against tyranny BS. Was shooting Gabby Giffords a defense against tyranny or just tyranny. We all know you love your surrogate penises now tell us why you need the ones who's only design and intent is to kill as many human beings as possible as quick as possible? What do you hunt that requires these kinds of guns?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:17am PT
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There will be growing pains as the change takes place as those easily scared turn to the governnment
Some of the most fearful (of others) people I know stockpile guns and ammo.
As a responsible gun owner, I'd like to see tighter rules on ownership.
It would be an invasion of privacy, but shouldn't HIPAA be a factor in this conversation?
Unseal documents on potential gun buyers. Have an agency act as an intermediary between buyers and sellers. Give potential buyers a red flag or a green flag on purchases and leave it at that. Sellers don't need to the know the particulars on a red flag, they just need to know that a firearm can't be sold to that individual.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:17am PT
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"Being FREE just means being BRAVE."...
I can think of a LOT of "BRAVE" people that aren't free...
So it MUST mean something else...
Oh, I'm probably being baited by this one, lol. But I just can't resist that sort of formal fallacy.
FREE > BRAVE is not the same relation as BRAVE > FREE.
Being free implies being brave. Being brave does not imply being free.
I stated the former, but you cited counterexamples based on the latter.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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Madbolter - you really need to stop saying 11,000 gun deaths a year as that is not correct. You are speaking of murder. There are far more 'gun related deaths'. Those include accidents, suicides, justificable homicides, murders etc.
Also, would like to see the cite you spoke of from the "2009" document you speak of. The body of literature that concluded that the crime and decline in murder that peaked in the early 90s is likely what you are speaking of. Just because something was published in 2009 doesn't mean it pertains to 2009 numbers. Still, I'm interested in that citation.
edit: Also, as an FYI, please don't include me in a group talking about an 'epidemic' of violence. That is not my position. In fact, people who know me professionally are well aware of that (but you don't know me professionally, and it appears you don't even know what I do professionally so I'm just making you aware of this).
On the other hand, does something have to be an epidemic to be important or require attention? I don't think so.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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And 12,000 isn't 1. And no one's saying "if it can even save one life". You're making that up.
There are about 4,000 non-gun-caused homicides in this country every year. If you were somehow able to ELIMINATE ALL gun-caused homicides, you would still have a LOT of killing going on.
In fact, about 1/4 of all homicides in this country annually cannot be eliminated by even ELIMINATING all guns. The absolute numbers would likely increase compared to the current ratio if guns were actually eliminated, because, albeit made more difficult, many of those killings would take place anyway.
So, let's say that you can ELIMINATE something like 6000 homicides by ELIMINATING guns altogether. Great! That's a good thing, no kidding.
Problem is that NOBODY is talking about eliminating all guns. So, the question really is: HOW many deaths would you eliminate by the gun control measures under serious consideration?
Actually, not many. A thousand, PERHAPS. Likely, more like a few hundred.
And, so, we're back to the various versions of "if it can save even one life...."
You would advocate making this issue a contentious matter of national policy, despite the weight of historical/philosophical evidence not favoring your "flexibility" regarding the second amendment. And for what? To save, likely AT BEST, a few hundred lives?
If you are officially NOT going with ANY version of the "if it can save even one life..." argument, then you HAVE to be able to see that in a nation of 1/3 of a billion people, the sort of debate we're having now nationally IS a tempest in a teapot over a few hundred lives.
Let's get a grip, quit running scared, and put our limited resources where they can actually do more good and save far more lives.
And, for the record, again, since recent posters are (predictably) lumping me in with other certifiable gun-NUTS, I don't own a gun, have not fired one in decades, am not in ANY way affiliated with the NRA or any other "gun" organization, and my "manhood" is in no way connected with my (non-existent) arsenal, nor with my ability to kill anybody.
For me, this is a strictly principled discussion, regarding what are, for me, matters of political science/philosophy having to do with the nature of legitimate government and the nature of "rights."
Now I do have to get some work done. lol
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Okay, last post here.
One can only hope.
I've done my civic duty, Define civic duty?
We don't WANT people to die AT ALL! Good luck with that.
Death itself isn't "acceptable." Why is something that is ultimately inevitable "unacceptable" to you?
It is not DEATH it is the mass murder and slaughter of innocent humans that is unacceptable.
If you take the hard line that is so commonly floated: "If it can save even one life...," then you commit our government to shutting down EVERYTHING that could POSSIBLY entail the SLIGHTEST risk. Impossible in principle.. It is illogical to draw that conclusion. That statement says a great deal more about you than reality.
Death is gonna happen on MANY fronts, and the WHOLE game here is to decide which fronts are fights worth fighting, all things considered Yep. And one front most deffinately worth fighting is the one that gets these weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of emotionally unstable closet sociopaths.
It's not a front on which you are going to win the "war on death." What "WAR ON DEATH"? One of the stupidest things I have ever read on ST and that says a lot.
Go after heart disease or cancer (most cases of which are life-style related), and you can eliminate a LOT of death (and a LOT more suffering pre-death)! And even then, your best bet is to educate, not legislate. Actually there has been a lot of legislation that has been successful at reducing death rates from many avoidable causes.
And "acceptable risk" is NOT the same thing as any particular death itself being acceptable. NO death is acceptable! But all sorts of RISKS of death ARE acceptable. Again where are you coming from? How can you make a statement like "No death is acceptable?
My Mother died unexpectedly but I accepted it. What I don't accept is another rightwing anti-government gun crazy wingnut slaughtering children with assault weapons.
Here is a more accurate analogy for your otherwise specious argument that regulating guns won't stop death.
You can't stop all bike thefts but a good bike lock will stop the easy ones.
You can't stop all the killing but a good gun restriction will stop the easy ones.
Being FREE just means being BRAVE. They go hand in hand. One of the other nuttier things I have read on ST.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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And children being killed by gun violence in the inner city does not get the same kind of nationwide attention either.
And I bet your mall guy wasn't carrying an assault weapon.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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And neither are the Palestinian children killed by IDF soldiers or Illegal unSettlers.
How does any of those situations diminish the argument that easy access to weapons of mass destruction should be eliminated?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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What would Jesus do with an assault rifle?
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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What's tyrannical about requiring gun owners to report stolen or "lost" guns?
What's tyrannical about requiring gun owners to keeps guns in a safe or otherwise inaccessible when not under their supervision?
What's tyrannical about requiring background checks for ALL gun purchases or transfers of ownership?
It is completely possible that none of these might have prevented what happened on Friday, but without a doubt, over time, would save many other lives and threaten nobody's "rights".
I don't say this as an ant-gun nut, or an anti gun-nut. I've endured the difficult process to own guns in a country with tight restrictions on ownership and use, a country that to outside eyes was in the midst of a minor civil war, yet still had a lower murder rate than the USA.
TE
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Oh please Mr Government, come pave and patrol my street.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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Joe, I think you hit it on the head with that. Almost all of these types of crimes usually involves the shooter checking out before he/she is forced to confront their crimes. In essence they are too afraid to have the final shootout with the authorities. Gun's allow a detached method of killing. There is no getting up close with their victim. It's death from afar and that anonymous safety gives them the power to kill at random.
While it's nice they saved us from having to pay for a long drawn out trial, I would much prefer they were alive to face their victim's family and friends in court.
edit: monolith: "Oh please government, come pave and patrol my street."
Dude if there wasn't a government, you wouldn't have a street to begin with.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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Ron, do you really think that the number of lives saved by guns justifies the innocent lives taken by guns? By any statistics, except those promoted by the NRA, it' not even close. That's a worse argument than madbolter's.
TE
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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Wow ron so a guy with a gun stopped a guy with a gun. Do tell.
Likewise there can be found plenty of anecdotal evidence that people have survived car crashes without wearing a seat belt. So not only should seat belt laws be abolished but they should just be removed entirely. Imagine the savings for profits to be had if car companies didn't have a tyrannical Government legislating law and forcing them to put things like seatbelts, safety glass and brakes in cars. Car deaths should be the acceptable risk we pay so car companies can be free of tyranny in a FREE market.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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What do you hunt that requires these kinds of guns?
Do you even read other peoples' posts?
IT IS NOT ABOUT KILLING BAMBI!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Yes actually I do read the posts.
Nothing realistic has ever been presented.
But you all devolve into some version of protection against tyranny.
Guns don't scare me but the Rambo irrationality of the current militiaman mentality sure does.
So what exactly do you need them for then?
They have but one purpose, slaughtering humans.
Why do you NEED them?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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Hopefully I don't.
Stop putting words in my mouth.
I already answered your question philo.
You should read what other people write between your insulting outbursts.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
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You need an assault weapon to target practice?
You aren't very good, are you.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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As I have said none of you have presented a compelling argument greater than a four year old's rant of I WANT, I WANT, I WANT! You think my outbursts have been insulting? You don't think turning everyone of these threads into an NRA circle jerk is insulting? Dead children and unopened Christmas presents are insulting. I have not even started getting warmed up yet. Give us a reasonable argument and we will listen. But keep up the obscene glorification of all things GUN and prepare for insult. By the way how many children lie dead in heaps from insults?
Oooooh Rong you are so sexy and macho when you drop gun names like that. Tell us more so we can get off too.
No RONG, it is about the ability of you to murder with your gun. The stupid among us always try to twist it around and say the gun is inanimate it doesn't kill therefore the gun isn't the problem.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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No, you could not, Ron.
Which weapon gives a child a better chance to escape a classroom, a gunman with a bolt action rifle, or an assault weapon?
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
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I am now in favor of gun control, previously I was on the fence. I will vote. And donate.
Game on.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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The names and birth dates of the dead:
Charlotte Bacon (2/22/06), 6 years old, female
Daniel Barden (9/25/05), 7 years old, male
Rachel Davino (7/17/83), Staff member, 29 years old, female
Olivia Engel (7/18/06), 6 years old, female
Josephine Gay (12/11/05), 7 years old, female
Ana M. Marquez-Greene (4/4/06), 6 years old, female
Dylan Hockley (3/8/06), 6 years old, male
Dawn Hochsprung (6/28/65), Principal, 47 years old, female
Madeleine F. Hsu (7/10/06), 6 years old, female
Catherine V. Hubbard (6/8/06), 6 years old, female
Chase Kowalski (10/31/05), 7 years old, male
Nancy Lanza, 52 years old, female (mother of shooter Adam Lanza)
Jesse Lewis (6/30/06), 6 years old, male
James Mattioli (03/22/06), 6 years old, male
Grace McDonnell (11/4/05), 7 years old, female
Anne Marie Murphy (7/25/60), Staff member, 52 years old, female
Emilie Parker (05/12/06), 6 years old, female
Jack Pinto (05/05/06), 6 years old, male
Noah Pozner (11/20/06), 6 years old, male
Caroline Previdi (9/07/06), 6 years old, female
Jessica Rekos (5/10/06), 6 years old, female
Avielle Richman (11/17/06) 6 years old, female
Lauren Rousseau (June 1982), Staff member, 30 years old, female
Mary Sherlach (2/11/56), Staff member, 56 years old, female
Victoria Soto (11/04/85), Staff member, 27 years old, female
Benjamin Wheeler (09/12/06), 6 years old, male
Allison N. Wyatt (07/03/06), 6 years old, female
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/15/victims-connecticut-school-shooting/1771765/ Includes photos of many of the dead.
(I'm just getting going. Perhaps once I have them, I'll repeatedly post not just the above, but also photos of those who died.)
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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On another note, the first three murdered children are being buried today. I wonder if the child who was literally blown to pieces by 11 point-blank shots from a long rifle is among them?
Perhaps a condition for gun ownership should be viewing a small child blown into little pieces by the very weapon the propective gun owner seeks to purchase.
After all, I rememeber having to watch those horrific aftermath films in driver training when I wanted a licsence. As has been said so many times before -- without so much as a peep in response from the folks who believe this -- it is absolutely normal, ordinary and acceptable for any one person to own enough hardware, to possess anough firepower, to take out a small country.
Well, OK. Can we at least agree that the use and ownership of these extraordinary firearms be regulated with the same attention we give to driving and drivers liscences?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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It is absoluetly harder to get a building permit not to mention a nevada contractors license than to get an assault type rifle. Notice I say type Don't wanna get Ron all riled up;)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
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Yeah, I have purchased a handgun. A Taurus Model 44 Revolver. Holds 5 rounds. More than sufficient for my needs. Came with a free one-year NRA membership. F*#k those guys.
I purchased it at Ruff's in Flagstaff. The entire transaction took maybe ten minutes; and it only took that long because they ran some kind of instacheck on me to ensure I was not a convicted felon.
It quite literally took more time and was more hassle to buy a gallon of milk at a crowded Safeway. And compared to getting a driver's liscence? A fishing liscence? An Elk Tag?! Are you f*#king kidding me?!
Public policy regarding gun ownership in this country is insane. Anybody who thinks otherwise is pathological.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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Madbolter1: I myself, and many people I know ARE getting concerned to the point of distress about the tyranny THIS government HAS become.
Finally we get to the real heart of the matter from which all else flows.
Tyranny with a capital 'T'. Alas, my comments on the 'militia' aspect of the second should not be construed as a statement their concerns were not warranted, but rather as a statement the world is no longer that of their times and this aspect of their remedy is now completely irrelevant in the world of the lives we live today. Completely irrelevant. Also, your interpretation, while cloaked in suitable originalist garb, like Heller, is in fact a radically activist interpretation of said amendment - the only real difference between you and Scalia is you actually believe your wingnuttery as opposed to Antonin who is simply for sale.
As for your statistical straw-dogging, what is the probability a single sitting president will have to attend a fifth mass-murder memorial? It's really the only statistic which will matter to victim's loved ones of the next mass-murder incident.
But if you're going to play that game then let's talk clean air and water and the deaths associated with pollution - but wait, that's right, there is no 'right' to clean air and water in the Bill of Rights! What a colossal f*#kup on the part of the framers and founders! How could they be that clueless and short sighted? How could they be that blind? Could it be they just lived in a different time, in a different world? Let's not even get into GMOs, ISP tapping, nuclear power, cloning, synthetic life, or people's right to instant, 24x7x365 communication.
Originalism, like a card held up a sleeve, is usually played judiciously, but almost always at the convenience of, and in service to, the interests of the holder and bears no real relationship to the game at hand. Were the framers and founders sitting at today's table, they'd be the first to look at you and Scalia like Martians on the topic of militias.
P.S. I somehow can't find your indignant decrying of the Neocons as they turned the Constitution into so much toilet paper in the conduct of their heady affairs.
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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My younger brother is a K-12 grade public school teacher. He teaches a combined class and told me his students are the exact same age (6&7). He has been teaching for about 30 years now. I was just talking to him this morning before he went to school. He said that it was going to be a ruff day/week, the kids will have a lot of questions and concerns, etc! But he was hoping that some good would come from this (me also). Hopefully bring the country closer together.
Like this ... um ... never mind!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
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It takes much more that a single Congressman to enact legislation Ron. Please review "Civics 101: How A Bill Becomes Law", then come back and restate your query for us. Try to offer a scenario that is even remotely plausible.
Don't know why I bother.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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Donald,
Kris also pointed this out, but facts and logic are hard to come by right now. Connecticut has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. The killer tried to buy guns, and the laws "worked" -- he was turned down. Unfortunately, all he had to do was take his mother's guns.
I wish there were an easy solution to this, but it involves some combination of invisible ink in the Constitution, making protections non-existent at the whim of the government, a willingness of the owners of hundreds of millions of firearms to turn them in, and an ability to predict who is likely to commit senseless acts of violence.
As Kris has also pointed out, the murder rate has decreased dramatically during the last 20 years. All of this suggests to me that the desire to "do something" now is driven by those with a preexisting agenda that have been unable to convince the general public with logical conclusions from real world evidence.
I was, and remain, quite proud of the President (rather rare for me) in his response, but that good will remains tempered by reality. Laws making illegal use of firearms more illegal haven't seemed to be sufficient to cause the intended result, even without the Constitutional limits.
John
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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Answer a question based on a premise that is not possible in real life? Why not ask me what would happen if a unicorn mated with a zebra?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
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He did.
A congressman can't make a law. He can only propose them.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Buh by, Ron. Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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The 299,999,999 OTHER guns last week shot no one, nor have ever been used to commit crimes. The millions of proper gun owners shot no one last week.
Not exactly true. Even a quick look shows that in 2009 there were 131,000 robberies using a firearm, that's 2500 EACH WEEK. 9000 gun murders is 173 each week, and that doesn't even include attempted murders, or accidents.
Where do you think those guns came from? Irresponsible gun owners and ineffective laws.
TE
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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jghedge,
How do you deal with the Second Amendment? I have never owned a firearm, and I don't believe I can legally do so now. I am safer if no one has firearms. The Constitution, however, says otherwise (unless you add words that the Constitution doesn't contain).
The United States has at least 200,000,000 firearms in circulation. What do you propose that will make us less likely to experience gun violence, given these facts? Please explain in your answer how the rather strict firearms regulation in Connecticut ameliorated the tragedy.
Thanks.
John
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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well, yes
everyone knows guns are not allowed on the fairies going to the Island
ban fairies instead
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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The 299,999,999 OTHER guns last week shot no one, nor have ever been used to commit crimes.
Completely untrue. Oh, and one of them killed two police officers in Topeka yesterday.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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how do you explain that the states with the strongest gun ownership laws are also the states with the lowest gun involved deaths? see wikipedia gun control states search
knowing of course that it takes decades for new laws to sink into the civilian consciousness to begin to be effective
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
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For the last time (yeah right) no one is proposing to ban guns. Get a grip.
well, the proposals involve SOME guns, like new sales of full assault weapons, etc
stuff not needed for hunting or home defense stuff
but down the Slippery Slope we go!
if you smoke reefer, then you will for sure become a heroin addict slope arguments
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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Fact: Few will care about your "right" to own a gun if it means any psycho can walk into their kids school and blow them away with a machine gun.
Fact: This has been happening repeatedly and does not happen with anywhere near this regularity in countries that restrict guns.
Fact: Asking everyone to carry guns is not a solution and is a sure sign of more insanity on this issue.
I hope must guns do get banned. I would support it.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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Nice posts, healyje.
I, too, am waiting for answers from Bush supporters on this very forum who did not utter a peep from Jan 2001-Jan2009 regarding the Patriot Act and other actions that trampled the Constitution that since Jan 2009 they are so anxious to protect.
Anyway, no point in going there since we still won’t hear anything.
I believe it was Dingus who mentioned oh so long ago that the key is to go after the weapons (including ammo) manufacturers. Gun control laws are not without merit, but given what’s on the books, adding to them is sort of like the current approach to immigration – if you don’t go after the employers, or in this case the weapons manufacturers, you are just going to spin your wheels.
But gun laws, limiting access to weapons, etc., is only part of the picture. There also needs to be improvements in access to healthcare for all, education not just of the academic variety, and a general reestablishment of what it means to be part of a neighborhood, community, city, county, state, country, and world. Those on the right in here and elsewhere like to talk big about solidarity and patriotism when it comes to sending someone else’s kids off to war, and are the first to give bull-shit lip service to supporting the troops, but when push really comes to shove, they don’t seem to be in favor of anything that will actually help their neighbor – falsely believing that they “did it all on their own” so why should they help anybody else.
The tragic accident is the price that we pay for the society the America that we’ve decided to create for ourselves. In most industrialized countries you just don’t see people sh#t on each other the way you do in this country – and I’m not talking about day to day politeness on the street, I’m talking about the general framework of how society is to be structured.
Anyway, carry on, I look forward to more BS posts about how “if I had a gun…” even though studies have shown that the average gun owner, even trained, is slow to react and is even prone to shooting the wrong person.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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F*#k your guns, I hope the "right" is repealed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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The delusion is palpable. Just about every corner in Chicago has a tavern. Have all the patrons open carry and I can assure you it will not be civil and you'd be slowly backing out the door as fast as you could.
Disney has nothing on the world you live in Ron.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
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Both sides to this argument have merit. I can only use my own experiences as an example but I know that bitd, if I had had access to a gun of any sort one or two well known posters on this forum would not be posting here today.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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Class action lawsuits by families and the wounded against gun and ammunition manufacturers and sellers, the NRA, and their enablers and co-conspirators, should go a long way to more effective regulation of guns, and prohibitions against the public owning assault rifles and automatic weapons. They'll be supported by many local and state governments. It'll be much like the actions against the big tobacco conspiracy, with the difference that big tobacco could make up its losses by exporting to developing countries, and big weaponry doesn't have as much opportunity there.
It's the American way - regulation through litigation.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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You're absolutely right. Nevada has, at best, always had a tenuous relationship with reality and bears almost no resemblance at all to the other states in the union (or the people and lives therein).
Degaine, spot on with regard to how we're set up to treat people.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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Gun's are bad.
So back to times like these, where random shootings and massacres happen, that nobody in Sandy Hook thought would happen.
Would you feel better knowing your nation is banning guns, and every single law abiding citizen is turning in their weapons to make the left wingers happy?
(For those of you who thought "Yes" or "YEAH! WATCH THEM CRY!")
Well, you're a moron. You obviously rely on people's good faith to be the rendition of your safety.
Mass shootings don't happen at gun ranges, or police stations.
Want an example? Okay.
Blue on Green attacks, like in Afghanistan.
These people hate you, and all your friends. They sh#t on your toilet seat because they don't want to sit on an infidel's toilet. They get offended at everything you do because you're not a muslim.
You give them a gun.
You give them the training to use it.
You have to trust them, and not judge them.
They turn their AK's onto you.
How come an entire army base, or masses of troops aren't killed?
Can it be, because the threat is eliminated as fast as that?
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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Ron Anderson wrote:
THE most civil bar i was ever in was one where just about ALL the patrons were open carrying.
Every bar I've ever been to was civil, well with the exception of one in Oregon, and in not one of them were people openly carrying (or carrying, period).
So what’s your f*#king point?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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Because open/concealed carry laws have so much to do with previously nonviolent young men going completely insane and murdering scores of innocents ??????
Try to think and put all of you bullsh!t political rants aside. This was not some drug robbery or gang activity gone bad. We all know some of you are scared of people legally carrying guns, we get it. That's not the problem behind these mass random killings. Can't you see that?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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I am safer if no one has firearms.
The military, including the National Guard, will still have guns. There will never ever be a situation where no one has firearms.
You will always be in danger of being shot. The only thing that could change is by whom.
Dave
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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fear wrote:
We all know some of you are scared of people legally carrying guns, we get it. That's not the problem behind these mass random killings. Can't you see that?
It's not those legally carrying guns that scared me, regulations are so strict and permits to carry are so hard to come by, that I can honestly say that statistically speaking I'm reassured that someone with the legal right to carry won't go on this type of rampage.
It's how easily just about anyone has to legal access to weapons that scares me. If purchasing a weapon were are difficult as obtaining a permit to carry, as well as being able to hold manufacturers and legal gun owners responsible for murders with their guns, then maybe we'd be getting somewhere with gun control/regulations.
But that won't likely happen in my lifetime (and I have at least 60 years left to go given my genes), and as per my prior post it's only part of the equation.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
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I stand corrected, 299,993,942.
You really don't get it? I ask again, where do you think those "crime guns" came from? EVERY WEEK thousands of once legally purchased guns are used in crimes. A few thousand here, a few thousand there, pretty soon we'll be talking real numbers.
TE
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
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You guys are all intelligent. I really think that you will come to some solutions over time. This pic that Tobia posted on Guido's thread, "Every Picture Tells A Story." the moment I saw it I new it belonged here...
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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Laws cannot be used to make a utopia. It takes people. Lots of rational sane generous people who have a very strong desire to live in peace and to help their fellow man.
Current economic issue, crime statistics, and lots of other evidence, all show that we are not in a place to have a utopia or to even come close. We could make everything illegal and have curfews for everyone. We could have police on every street corner and tanks driving down the road but we won't have a lack of crime until people don't want or need to be criminals. Laws will not change that although they could make the people, locked in their houses with childproof locks on their cabinets and wall sockets, a tiny bit safer from gun violence.
If given the choice of which crappy place to live, I would choose the place with the violence. Then at least I can be prepared to act against the people that make my life miserable instead of being controlled by them.
Dave
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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Please stop debating with the gunnuts! You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. Most are out snatching up assault rifles today, anyway.
Just defeat them at the ballot box.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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rectorsquid wrote:
If given the choice of which crappy place to live, I would choose the place with the violence. Then at least I can be prepared to act against the people that make my life miserable instead of being controlled by them.
There are many places in the world with as many freedoms as the US and much (exponentially) less gun violence. It's a combination of both laws on the books, their enforcement, and culture.
Western culture used to burn people at the stake, allow 6 year olds to work in mines, and had no problems with slavery. Both laws and culture evolved for that to change. Laws are also a reflection of what's acceptable/not acceptable in a culture, and for some issues the laws need to come first for the culture to evolve so that the social norms "shame" (for lack of a better word) people into abiding.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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From this perspective the right to keep and bear arms as plainly stated in the Constitution
I'm suggesting we repeal it. There's no "right" to drive a car, there should be no right to keep and bear arms either. It's absurd.
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TFSTFU
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
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You idiots still going back and forth and accomplishing nothing is absurd.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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I'm suggesting we repeal it. There's no "right" to drive a car, there should be no right to keep and bear arms either. It's absurd.
At last -- someone proposes something that recognizes the current state of Constitutional jurisprudence!
Thanks, Binks, for an intellectually honest proposal. While I disagree with your reasoning, your proposal at least recognizes what's required to make the sort of gun control anti-gun advocates want reality.
Now if we could stop calling our opponents "nuts" we might start talking to each other rather than about each other.
John
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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Here is a solution, privatize the problem, mandatory insurance for gun owners.
All weapons registered and insured, just like a car. When someone gets shot the owner of the gun is responsible. No insurance, then you turn your gun in. Gun owners will be a lot more responsible and insurance companies will be careful about who they sell insurance to.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
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Okay, so we change the right to bear arms, to the privileged to bear arms.
K, now what? Licenses? Sounds good.
OH SH*T don't people drive illegally all the time?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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ill agree right AFTER climbing and rope insurances..
Because crazy people carry climbing gear and ropes into schools and kill children with them? Idiot.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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It's not those legally carrying guns that scared me, regulations are so strict and permits to carry are so hard to come by, that I can honestly say that statistically speaking I'm reassured that someone with the legal right to carry won't go on this type of rampage.
Where do you live? If outside the US, while your opinion is surely welcome, your observation is irrelevant, if inside the US, you have been badly misled. A chain is only as good as its weakest link, and in far too many states, purchasing a gun is trivially easy, and concealed carry permits equally so. While there are laws making it illegal for felons to possess guns, there are very few that make it anything more than inconvenient.
A year or two ago, some guy was arrested for attempted murder, a road rage incident on the road I drive to work. It soon became apparent that this was not the first time he had shot at cars in the area, his car met the description of several similar shootings. He turned himself in, surrendered the gun involved and was released on bail, but the police had no way to know how many firearms he had, and no right to enter his property to remove firearms from an as-yet innocent man, happily he went home and shot himself.
http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=214853
Or how about this one about how difficult it is for felons to get firearms? Convicted felon with several violent offenses including firearms offenses was so dissuaded by the law that he had acquired 50 weapons, and went out deer hunting with a former DA, when he "accidentally" killed another hunter.
http://www.examiner.com/article/montgomery-county-lawyer-sentenced-fatal-shooting-of-hunter
"Enforce existing laws"? BS
TE
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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I'm all for psyche evaluations and fire arms training courses to own guns.
Find the resources to do so.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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Well, it's sad, but true. Training did help this kid kill.
When the Sandy Hook E.S. Shooter's AR jammed, he had it ready to shoot within seconds.
When the Aurora Theater Shooter's AR jammed, he didn't know what to do, so his gun was useless. Many more lives would have been taken if he knew wtf he was doing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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John, I have never advocated repealing the second. I simply advocate for a non-activist interpretation of it which appropriately addresses the rights of individuals in the context of militias and one in which "well regulated" means just that.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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All gunnuts and Republicans - give them Texas. Big state, should be room for everyone. Let the NRA run the show. Don't forget the big fence.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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I am a multiple handgun owner, but that is totally irrelevant.
My guns are going to stay with me just like you are going to keep yours.
Self defense is a damn good enough reason for Americans to own guns.
FACT: More legislation likely will NOT stop anyone from getting a gun who wants one.
You can buy them with no background check all day long all over America (used).
FACT: There is NO realistic way to reduce the number or availability of guns.
Conclusion: MORE mass murders, more internet and pundits arguing about controls.
I give up, there is NO "solution", gun violence is as American as apple pie.
And that's just the way it is and gonna stay.
Sucks, but that is what we humans created and what we are going to live with.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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FACT: There is NO realistic way to reduce the number or availability of guns.
Completely and absolutely false, in its entirety.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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Toadgas, you are right
there are 33 Republican US Senators that will NOT vote for even the slightest and most reasonable new gun control legislation, they have said that, and they fully 100% support the NRA and their NO gun control position.
You have to have 60 Senators to pass new legislation, you are right, ain't gonna happen
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Completely and absolutely false, in its entirety.
lay out your case, realistically as in likely to get the new laws through the Republican House and also the realism of physically taking guns away from Americans
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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I'm telling ya, herding up Norton and his ilk and sending them to Texas sounds reasonable....just don't forget Ron. He can get on a mule and round up the "illegals" (I think these are actually people). Some good climbing in them parts, too.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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So you need you some semi-automatic assault rifles with high capacity magazines and armor piercing rounds to protect yourself from Government tyranny eh? Well good luck with that.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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I'm telling ya, herding up Norton and his ilk and sending them to Texas sounds reasonable
crankster, I think you are reading me wrongly
it's not that I would not support all kinds of new effective controls
it is that I was expressing my resignation and realism that nothing really can be done
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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healyje, I read your list when you posted it, I like it a lot
we will just have to agree to disagree as to the realism of congress passing the legislation
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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Wouldn't have prevented the CT shooting.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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Ron, how many of you and your buddies do you think it would take to keep a special forces team from taking your guns if it came to that?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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^^^ Lol. because special forces will be sent to take the guns from the people.
How awesome would that look in the world media.
"US Government sends military to take arms from it's people"
hahahahaha. special forces. f*#king christ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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It's the meds...If these shooters were smoking great herb , they would be less inclined to violence...
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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The idea that even the most organized militia could put up any sort of fight against the government is laughable
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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you'd sh#t yourself, if only you knew.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
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Yeah right
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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What about that would scare us?
Are you saying, if you own a gun, you're a racist homophobe?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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More like how long would RonA and MichaelD last after the plug was pulled at gasoline and grocery distributors, telecom, power and water companies, and - most desperate of all - McDonalds and Taco Bell.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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How would special forces do against Godzilla , Mothra , or Megagurius....?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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Kenny T writes:
"The idea that even the most organized militia could put up any sort of fight against the government is laughable"
The exact opposite of what you wrote is the reason we were told why we can never win in Afghanistan.
If a bunch of illiterate Afghani cavemen can make such a good showing, what makes you write off other, more advanced societies?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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Keep on dreamin ron
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
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Chaz: If a bunch of illiterate Afghani cavemen can make such a good showing, what makes you write off other, more advanced societies?
You pretty much answer your own question in the asking. The other half is why they keep kicking advanced society asses.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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More like how long would RonA and MichaelD last after the plug was pulled at gasoline and grocery distributors,
I can sit at home and have fun, or ride my bike around?? I'm used to that.
the telecom,
Oh you mean them talking things? It'd save me a monthly bill.
power and water companies,
I have a bottle of water in my gym bag. I am power.
and - most desperate of all - McDonalds.
I'm Fk'd.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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I've watched Survivor Man and Future Weapons.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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How many years ago was that?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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Once again, I think Norton and I are closer on this issue than our "partisan" positions would indicate. I don't understand how we can legislate away the approximately 200,000,000 firearms in circulation now.
Again, Connecticut has quite strict firearm regulations, that did no good because firearms were out there for the shooter to take, however illegally.
The Second Amendment issue is a much bigger hurdle than many gun control advocates realize. It's not just "activists judges'" interpretations. Once a Constitutional right exists, even indirect limitations of that right become subject to challenge. The right to privacy, found in Roe v. Wade is not even enumerated in the Constitution, but take a look at the appellate decisions upholding the right to abortion against regulation. They allow a bit of regulation, but not much.
That's why I say that any realistic solution needs to involve some change to the Second Amendment. I don't find that likely, and not just because the Republicans control the house and can filibuster in the Senate. The Democrats largely abandoned gun control because the American public hasn't bought into its effectiveness. If anything, the Sandy Hook tragedy shows the ineffectiveness of the current state of affairs.
So what are we going to do? I don't think "nothing" is a good answer, but I don't think you can stop gun violence in America with a magic bullet, to use a bad analogy. You certainly won't do it by calling people names.
Again, as President Obama rightly said, we need to change. How can we change our society in a way that reflects the physical and societal proliferation of firearms, respects our freedom, but makes this sort of tragedy less likely? I'm all ears and eyes.
John
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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I just heard on the news that the gunshops can't keep the ar15s on the shelf. just the sight of one of those things should make a sane person sick right now
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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They are close enough. you guys are all crying about your f*#king rights.What about my kids rights to go to school without being in fear of being shot up by any kind of gun?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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Im not crying about rights Kenny,, im talking towards the REAL problem,, a common denominator in all of these mass killings lately,, DRUG prescrips.
It every occur to you that the common denominator is the underlying condition that the drugs were prescribed to treat?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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Apparently some think action makes sense only when success is guaranteed beforehand. I don't know that such a guarantee has ever existed - on anything.
It does not take any special ability to realize this. So we may conclude no action is the hidden agenda.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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Apparently some think action makes sense only when success is guaranteed beforehand. I don't know that such a guarantee has ever existed - on anything.
It does not take any special ability to realize this. So we may conclude no action is the hidden agenda.
Word.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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Another common denominator in these mass killings are assault type rifles
Ron, the Manson gang were trying to be quiet
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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Just think of what he could have accomplished with better tools.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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Another common denominator in these mass killings are assault type rifles
Yes, mentally disturbed people with assault rifles.
You'd think that the gun owners would look for a way to limit the access of mentally ill people to keep themselves and everyone else safer and so that they can keep their guns.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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It's useless for pro-gun, and anti-gun people to be arguing.
^^ Instead of provoking the mentally ill with violent video games, going to the gun range to learn how to be effective, etc.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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Ron, I agree with you. The massive number of guns in circulation defies any easy legislative solution. By the way, I'm not sure that's bad. Despite what others say, I think the Second Amendment was intended, in part, to be a check on the power of the federal government.
While I think mental health is a key part of the puzzle, I wouldn't be so quick to condemn all antidepressants. I developed a debilitating depression completely endogenously. There were no outside, objective, reasons for it. I've detailed my travails on other threads. For the last seven years, I have been on Effexor, however, and have had no such issues.
I'll admit I've been very fortunate. Most people don't respond as well as I did, and one antidepressant seems to lose effectiveness after awhile for most people, so maybe I'm a special case. Still, I think we need to be careful about the breadth of our brush.
John
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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That's because Chinese AK's suck.
Lol.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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Ron, please take your meds and get back to us regarding assault rifles when you are able to form complete sentences. Thanks,
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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Stop saying "assault rifles".
He used a semi automatic rifle that replicates an "assault rifle".
F*cking noobs.
It's like me calling a Miata a supercar because it is red and convertible.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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John said Despite what others say, I think the Second Amendment was intended, in part, to be a check on the power of the federal government.
Is it in any way effective at doing that, is the question. Prohibition was a constitutional amendment intended to check the power of alcohol with questionable results. Regardless, there is a lot of latitude within allowing gun ownership for gun regulation. The only people who run to try to interpret the 2nd amendment to be absolute or obsolete are extremists on either side. It's a distraction from the real discussion.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
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Ron, I only met you a couple times about 20 years ago I can't remember what you look like, Oh wait now I remember. Just messin with ya Ron but at times you do sound like this guy
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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Mickeyd I say assault type rifle... Dipshit
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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What is so assault about his semi automatic rifle?
Is it because it's black and has some clipazines and lewks scary?
Dipsh*t.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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Mickeyd I'll let someone else take that one.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:29pm PT
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Who? If you're gonna argue something, at least get the terminology right.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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Like tryin to squeeze water from a rock.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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Was it fully automatic?
Did it have a burst mode?
Oh, it didn't? So it was only semi automatic?
Ruger Mini-14
5.56x45mm
Semi-auto
AR-15
5.56 NATO
Semi-auto
Which one of these scares you more? Hint: Neither are assault rifles.
Have I ever had the training to do what with a "Bushmaster"?
I can hit a target with one.
So guns are bad, mental health isn't?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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Mickeyd, that settles it you are the smartest man alive. I think I hear your mom calling you.So guns are bad, mental health isn't? who said that?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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Pistols only were involved in this incident.
The two weapons used are among the most comon carried by LEOs and are therefore ubiquitous.
A complete and effective ban on semi auto long guns would have made no difference.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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TGT, I heard multiple conflicting reports from the media.
The coroner said that there were 6 year olds with 11 .223 rounds in them.
And there was a single shot from the pistol, and that was into the shooters head.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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Pistols only were involved in this incident
Not this again
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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It has been 30 years since I was in the service, but I do know that the AR-15 is an M-16 without the ability to go fully automatic. I have also seen an AR-15 converted to fully automatic very easily. Even in the semi-automatic mode the AR-15/M-16 is clearly an assault weapon.
Having fired the M-16 in both modes, I can tell you, the semi-automatic is more dangerous, because it can be fired more selectively, in other words, you will hit your target with more rounds. In fact I think they added a third mode at some point to shoot just a few round burst, rather than blowing your entire "wad" in the fully auto mode. To suggest that it is not an assault weapon shows serious denial/delusion.
Edit - it is a rifle, not a gun!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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Only if they are chinese made B.Ds with an insane leader
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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Sure Ron But I don't think that the average school teacher needs to be armed and take up the role of security guard.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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um,
my guess is a lot of teachers would quit the profession if they were required to be armed
but maybe we could just put a fully armed national guardsman in every classroom
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
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Quick fix?? Well Columbine, Virginia tech, now Conn says we need security there. They pick these locations BECAUSE OF NO GUNS being allowed there. The same places off limits to CCW holders. Hospitals too. A target rich non protected environment perfect for evil..
Well in this case, I think the shooter went to the school because he felt like he could cause more fear in children, much younger than him, to feel strong and in power. I don't think he payed attention to the gun free zone stickers. It's all very sad that this happened, and continues to happen.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Just how is this armed teacher thing supposed to work? Anything less than a loaded weapon in a holster would be ineffective. Yeah, I see a problem with that.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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Maybe he's doin some homework
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
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does anyone SERIOUSLY believe that teachers, who are predominantly female, would
continue their teaching career if they were required to be carrying a handgun?
really think so? think about it
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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"the armed teacher thing would work just like the armed PILOT thing is now. Fairly well ..."
Are you really arguing that some idiot like yourself should be armed at my kids school?
Can someone please do the photo manip of Rong protecting kids in CA with his shotgun and natural light?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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the perfect weapon for a full on crack attack
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:11pm PT
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We need to stop the thinking that nothing can be done.
Turn off anyone who is saying that.
Sure it's not going to be easy.
Maybe 20 children and 6 adults (7 including the mother who supplied the guns to her mentally unstable son) killed is the magic number to swing public opinion.
Or maybe it will take 100+ the next time.
Guns make it easy to kill people fast.
They are too easy to get.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
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There should be little doubt that somethings going to change. And I doubt it's going to be armed teachers
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Ron,you guy's didn't think Obama had a chance at reelection either
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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did it change after Columbine or Virginia Tech?
actually, Ron makes a good point
and the answer is no, nothing changed, no new legislation
just my opinion from closely following congress, but no legislation will get passed
because although the Democrats will try some reasonable proposals, the Republicans have enough votes to stop it
and make no mistake about it, the Republicans are owned by the NRA, like it or not
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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I discussed the arming of teachers idea with a teacher this afternoon. She said there are too many crazy unstable teachers.
This is an interesting opinion piece by someone who has studied and written about these types of tragedies. The author, Katherine S. Newman, is the James B. Knapp Dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at Johns Hopkins University and the co-author of "Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings"
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
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and that "gentleman" didnt appear to me as if he would have paid the taxes and registrations to own it legally.
OMG, was he brown? I don't trust people of that culture.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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I am reminded of Black Talon ammo.
The subject of wildly pejorative rumor, it was therefore voluntarily removed from the market.
A bizarre world when items are discontinued because they work too well.
Yes, assault STYLE weapons are likely the most effective at killing people.
If self-defense is a right (and it is) it constitutes a good choice.
SO STOP INSISTING THAT NOBODY HAS ANY USE FOR ONE.
People abuse legal drugs too, but we don't call for a ban on the drug, we fight the abuse.
edit;
and Norton saying
ban fairies instead
Hmmm, look at the trouble I got into misspelling homicide.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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Mechrist,I heard they don't have feelings or cry real tears
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:32pm PT
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I discussed the arming of teachers idea with a teacher this afternoon. She said there are too many crazy unstable teachers.
True! I don't know a single faculty member who thinks this is a good idea. This recommendation seems to come from people who do not work in schools or universities.
Why? Because we KNOW that some of our colleagues are, uh, unstable. :/ Hell, in Criminology, we have a group of "Convict Criminologists" some of whom HAVE killed someone! In my previous job, two of the professors on faculty (in my Dept) had committed homicide (both justifiable) and both have suffered psychologically a great deal from their incidents. They (and others who have not served any time) are the last folks I want armed.
BTW, I put myself in the 'best not to arm' category as well.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
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Maybe we will just make them carry weapons if they want to keep their jobs!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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Every school and public place needs to be booby trapped with explosives and contolled sarin gas streams which are in locked mode but subject to release by Moloch upon receipt of a 911 call.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
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My god this is getting really weird. Arming teachers? Really...what is this country coming too?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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Just lower the age for incarceration, make nose picking illegal, and lock all the kids up... 24 hour armed guards, barbed wire, the whole works. I'm sure the PIC will support it... and the NRA because it just makes way more sense than limiting access to guns. Prison guards can double as "teachers"... and from what I've seen from my college students, it might be an improvement in education.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 17, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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Ron said
edit;
and Norton saying
ban fairies instead
Hmmm, look at the trouble I got into misspelling homicide.
yeah, but my misspelling was intentional
I do know the difference between dancing fairies and a "ferry" to go over to an island
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
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Hi Crimp. Yeah, now that I think of it, many of my teachers in school were batshit crazy.
As for having firearms, I count myself in the camp that can own and use them responsibly, which brings up a point I haven't heard discussed much either here or in the news. Adam Lanza's mother, Nancy Lanza, didn't secure those weapons. The police haven't yet revealed how Adam, who was known to his mom to have emotional problems, got ahold of the weapons. But really any gun owner is responsible to have control of their weapons at all times.
I don't have a gun safe, and my worst fear is that some teenager and his friends will break into my house when I'm not there, find the guns, and injure or kill either themselves or others. So when I leave the house the ammo is separated from the guns, the guns are disassembled, and I take the barrels with me. Nancy Lanza was of course killed by her son, but making gun owners responsible for crimes their guns are used in, even if stolen, would go a long way toward making people secure their weapons adequately.
Last, banning guns, or at least some types of guns seems like a reasonable partial solution to the problem of school rage shootings, but in many ways it seems the horse is already out of the barn. Guns, including semi-automatic hand guns and long guns, are ubiquitous in the USA now and no amount of banning is going to make them go away.
Focusing on identifying smart but very disconnected and socially inept white males between the ages of 15 and 25, and then providing mental health treatment for those in need, would seem more productive in preventing these school rage shooting tragedies in the future. It's something that could be done immediately and it's a political sure thing.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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I edited the sentence Locker quoted in case anyone thinks he is batshit crazy and making stuff up.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
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I'm lookin for a shoulder holster for my five year old with no luck. I'll bet someone here can find one for me.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
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Violence is part of the human condition. We are entertained by it.
When Scarface opened 30 years ago it did modest box office and was universally panned by critics. In fact, during the pre-opening screening for critics the entire theater broke into laughter when Tony Montana sticks his face into a pile of "coke" and comes up with it on his face.
A few years later when videos became available something strange happened. Sales of Scarface took off. Today Universal Pictures has sold more copies than any other film.
"Say 'ello to my leetle friend" has become one of the best known lines in cinema.
Yes, movies feed the bloodlust. But what are you going to do? People LIKE it.
Nobody gets out alive.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
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Since we are talking about movies...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Disturbing, but entertaining. I can see why viewing should be restricted... although maybe the limit should be placed on mental health rather than age.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
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BTW, I put myself in the 'best not to arm' category as well.
Way to go Crimpergirl... I'm impressed when somebody tells me that. There's a lot of self awareness in a decision like that that many people do not have.
I've had a few women and men tell me that after a few lessons. I never ask why and refund their money.
For the record, carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility. One that takes a lot of effort and maintenance of skills.
Not that any of this has anything to do with mass random murders...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
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True! I don't know a single faculty member who thinks this is a good idea. This recommendation seems to come from people who do not work in schools or universities.
Why? Because we KNOW that some of our colleagues are, uh, unstable. :/ Hell, in Criminology, we have a group of "Convict Criminologists" some of whom HAVE killed someone! In my previous job, two of the professors on faculty (in my Dept) had committed homicide (both justifiable) and both have suffered psychologically a great deal from their incidents. They (and others who have not served any time) are the last folks I want armed.
BTW, I put myself in the 'best not to arm' category as well.
This is troubling to me. Teachers cannot be trusted to be trained to properly handle a firearm? What does this say about our "teachers", that they can not learn personal responsibility?
Also, these gun-carrying teachers have to go through training. Sounds like most would fail, but only a small handful are needed to prevent this stuff.
Pretty sad when teachers are calling teachers "bat-shit crazy".
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
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I read that same statistic about per capita gun ownership Bruce. According to the gun nuts, reduced per capita ownership should correlate to an increase in crime, hmmmm, just the opposite happened. Maybe there is no link between the crime rate and gun ownership.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America
Posted: 12/16/2012 9:15 am EST | Updated: 12/17/2012 5:12 pm EST
Written by Liza Long, republished from The Blue Review
Friday’s horrific national tragedy -- the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut -- has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.
While every family's story of mental illness is different, and we may never know the whole of the Lanzas' story, tales like this one need to be heard -- and families who live them deserve our help.
Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.
“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.
“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”
“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”
“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”
I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan -- they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.
That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.
We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.
At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.
Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.
The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”
“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”
His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”
That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”
“You know where we are going,” I replied.
“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”
I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”
Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.
The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork -- “Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…”
At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.
For days, my son insisted that I was lying -- that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”
By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.
On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”
And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.
According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.
**When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”
**
I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise -- in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.
With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill -- Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011.
No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”
I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.
God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.
(Originally published at The Anarchist Soccer Mom.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html
Edit: TGT posted excerpts of this last night.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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Pretty sad when people like blurring are allowed to act like their opinion is worth a sh#t.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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Pretty sad when teachers are calling teachers "bat-shit crazy".
As someone noted upthread - this could be said about ALL occupations!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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Not comedians.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Thanks for posting that Audrey, very powerful stuff, heartbreaking to read. We need a long national discussion about mental health in this country. Between Big Pharma and the Prison Industry we are a long way from the solution.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Bluering, I found your jacket, you left at Andersons
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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But really any gun owner is responsible to have control of their weapons at all times.
Morally, yes, legally, no. Some asshat near me had an unoccupied cabin robbed, "6 or 8 guns" were stolen. Doesn't even know how many guns he owned, should be prohibited for life from owning a firearm again.
Nancy Lanza was of course killed by her son, but making gun owners responsible for crimes their guns are used in, even if stolen, would go a long way toward making people secure their weapons adequately.
Nancy was just proving the statistic about the people most likely to be killed by their guns. The reason why I no longer own any.
Guns, including semi-automatic hand guns and long guns, are ubiquitous in the USA now and no amount of banning is going to make them go away.
No need to make them go away, even a small reduction would save many many lives, and over time, reduced prevalence of guns on the streets would reduce the perceived need to carry guns for self protection.
Require background checks for all firearm purchases, or any transfer of ownership, including, or even especially between family members.
$50 tax deduction for all firearms handed in to police.
Mandatory reporting of stolen or "lost" firearms, with additional background check for any person after first lost or stolen firearm, two strikes, you don't own firearms.
Accessory charges for any firearm transferred or sold without authorization, or any functioning weapon lost or stolen and not reported.
It will take time, decades maybe, but the goal doesn't have to be to stop or prevent all gun crimes, even a modest reduction would be a huge achievement.
TE
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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C'mon now, Ron is o.k. just a different opinion. he also contributes some good climbing info. that we should appreciate
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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Ignore the simplistic, bumper sticker mentality crowd.
The ones who think they have their pulse on the intent of the "founding fathers" .
Who read their pocket constitution in between bong hits.
They argue the status quo is acceptable or unavoidable.
Geniuses, they are not.
We all suffer if we give in to their ignorance.
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Gene
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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So, 1.6K posts into this thread, can I have a show of hands of those whose opinion on gun ownership has changed in the past week?
Thought so.
Carry on.
g
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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Mine has changed. I now firmly believe that every person should be issued a gun at age 8, to protect themselves and their loved ones from crazy people with guns.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
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The new hall monitors
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
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Powerful magnets at school entries would take any weapons out of a lunatics hands....
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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No need to make them go away, even a small reduction would save many many lives, and over time, reduced prevalence of guns on the streets would reduce the perceived need to carry guns for self protection.
Require background checks for all firearm purchases, or any transfer of ownership, including, or even especially between family members.
$50 tax deduction for all firearms handed in to police.
Mandatory reporting of stolen or "lost" firearms, with additional background check for any person after first lost or stolen firearm, two strikes, you don't own firearms.
Accessory charges for any firearm transferred or sold without authorization, or any functioning weapon lost or stolen and not reported.
It will take time, decades maybe, but the goal doesn't have to be to stop or prevent all gun crimes, even a modest reduction would be a huge achievement.
I'm not suggesting that new controls aren't part of the solution. In my opinion they are. Such regulation will take time to pass though and to have an effect. It's also very possible new regulations will not come to pass at all.
Why not pursue the other significant component of these school rampage massacres, the mental health of the shooters, right away? It's a political no brainer and might have a comparatively immediate effect.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Drown out the gunnuts
Take to the street
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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Trying to follow this debate with some measure of objectivity, it strikes me that "the solution" is a moving target. What exactly are we hoping to accomplish here?
1) Eliminate all gun-related deaths? (No gonna happen. Next)
2) Reduce gun-related deaths to an "acceptable" level? (What counts as "acceptable?")
3) Produce "even a moderate decrease" in gun-related deaths? (What counts as "moderate?" See 2 above.)
4) Reduce gun violence? (Pretty open-ended and generic. What counts as success on this one, and how can it be determined if "success" was in any way related to legislation?)
On and on. Can we at least get clear about what the target is here?
I see some of your proposals, and I certainly see why they seem "obvious" and "no-brainers" to you. I'm just not clear on how these proposals connect-up with what the goal is. And that's largely because it's not clear what the goal IS.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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The goal is to stop school, and other mass gathering, rampage shootings.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 17, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
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The goal is to stop school, and other mass gathering, rampage shootings.
Okay, a stab at the goal. I'm not sure most would agree with you that this should be the goal, particularly since you didn't say "reduce" but instead said "stop." That seems like an unattainable bar to clear. But, okay, at least we have something flatly on the table.
Now, I'd like to see a connection between legislation and this goal.
For example: more rigorous background checks. That MIGHT "reduce" such incidents, but I don't see the connection to STOPPING such incidents.
Let's go through the proposed legislation ideas and see to what extent they might be expected to STOP such incidents (or even "reduce" them).
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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Funny thing Dave, whenever you compare the US to other countries folks bristle and start accusing you of being Anti-American. American exceptionalism put us above the fray for many.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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Ha! I just realized who Madbolter is. Hey Jensen, check your messages. Jesus called and he wants you to get over to the Westboro Baptist Church STAT.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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JEleazarian: The Second Amendment issue is a much bigger hurdle than many gun control advocates realize. It's not just "activists judges'" interpretations. Once a Constitutional right exists, even indirect limitations of that right become subject to challenge. The right to privacy, found in Roe v. Wade is not even enumerated in the Constitution, but take a look at the appellate decisions upholding the right to abortion against regulation. They allow a bit of regulation, but not much.
I would entirely disagree in this instance. The second amendment is, if nothing else, all about the SCOTUS interpretation. The majority's activist interpretation in Heller is now the principal obstacle to any 'sensible' gun control and Scalia was very much deliberate in insuring it would be exactly that.
JEleazarian: That's why I say that any realistic solution needs to involve some change to the Second Amendment. I don't find that likely, and not just because the Republicans control the house and can filibuster in the Senate. The Democrats largely abandoned gun control because the American public hasn't bought into its effectiveness. If anything, the Sandy Hook tragedy shows the ineffectiveness of the current state of affairs.
No change is required beyond a non-activist interpretation of appropriate individual rights in the context of well-regulated militias (see Stevens and Breyer dissents). Nothing more, nothing less. And democrats largely abandoned gun control efforts because of the overwhelming amount of gun and wingnut lobbyist dollars arrayed against them (and two of the more powerful of those gun lobbies are in Newtown, CT seven minutes from Sandy Hook Elementary - a fact which should also not be lost in these discussions).
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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Hey...Just want to toss in that I like Ron. Really, he's a sweetie! I may not agree with all of his opinions (and I could say that about anyone), but he's a great guy. :)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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uh.... as if teachers don't have better things to do? like mark tests to 10:30 at night?
It doesn't take more than a few off days to complete the training. Teachers do get quite of bit of down-time for certain portions of the year.
All that kid in Oregan had to do was point a gun at the shooter. The CCW permit holder never took a shot (because of people behind the shooter).
Callie, ever read any thoughts from John R. Lott Jr.? I'be be curious of your thoughts if you read his book on guns and crime.
EDIT: I'm going to stick by my point that armed people at schools is good, having it be the staff is better/cheaper.
I also put a huge blame on psychotropic drugging of kids with Ritalin, Prozac, etc...We are robbing them of their youth and personalities. This never used to happen before the 80's. We are avoiding disciplining of children the 'old way', in favor of sticking them full of pills.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
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Good one, I like the idea of the cheaper alternative when it comes to arming people to watch our kids. I'm sure they would be super stoked to spend their days off learning to take out bad guy's
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
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Look bluering, not everyone has your view if the World. If we get to the point where the survival of our children is dependent on every teacher being armed we will be in deep, deep trouble. Did it ever occur to you that a lot of teachers might be repelled by weapons?
You present yourself as a moral, religious (antithetical terms) guy and all you can come up with in this time of national grief is that crap.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s
I don't agree with the title of this, but it's got some provocative info.
Yes, I know John Lott - or more specifically of him. He's famous among criminologists....because he made up his data then fabricated personalities that supported his position. Not someone I'd hang my hat on. Too bad as his position on guns may be solid. But fabricating data and pretending to be "Mary Rosh" or having his prepubescent son "write" reviews of his book is unethical imo. Your mileage may vary.
edit: But he's likely made a nice pile of cash on selling his books based on these 'data' so some may dig him. :/
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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Bluering is the loving christian man that hates people. those are his words not mine.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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What can make otherwise normal people, who've lived more than 2 decades without hurting anyone, go completely insane and kill random people?
What can make a mother who's raised multiple babies suddenly kill her own children?
These stories are happening AROUND THE WORLD. Do you need a list?
This has nothing to do with guns.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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If we get to the point where the survival of our children is dependent on every teacher being armed we will be in deep, deep trouble. Did it ever occur to you that a lot of teachers might be repelled by weapons?
You present yourself as a moral, religious (antithetical terms) guy and all you can come up with in this time of national grief is that crap.
I never said arm them all! I was implying that that we need to stop publicizing that schools are 'gun free zones'. Allow teachers that are qualified and okay with it, to carry firearms in a discreet fashion.
That's all.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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Thanks Dropline. Not sure why mine didn't hotlink. Meh.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
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I was thinking about this thread as I drove home from work, intermixed with listening to various discussions of the tragedy over the car radio. I went to the store with my kids right after getting home, and the radio blared on, all about it; I turned it off. But, they spoke up. Every kid at school is talking about this.
While many here on ST are as shocked and horrified as I am, and share in the grief with the whole world, groping for answers to stop more senseless violence like this, there are still a few here on the fringe that want to minimize this massacre and even point to worse ones in history so as to make this massacre seem like something acceptable or historically normal in our society! Under the guise of freedom and the second amendment, the fringe accepts this tragedy and want to just move on from all of the "hype."
Not this time. As a people, we should never ever "move on" from this event and just go back to business as usual. The time has come to re-think national gun regulations in a sensible, civilized manner. The wild west is hereby over. Don't be fooled by the fringe that wants to minimize this event and put the national and international horror, grief, and whole record in a manilla envelope filed away with the others as just information for future reference.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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The goal is clearly to reduce gun violence.
There are no easy answers and open dialog is the one constant that can have a positive effect.
Firearms are not the issue. Firearm availability is. These are not semantics. Getting guns out of the hands of mentally ill individuals is the problem.
Strict background checks would be a start.
ATF personal interviews and background checks of prospective gun owners would increase wait time for purchase of firearms from 3 weeks to 3 months (or more). I've sat through such interviews and I believe any of the killers involved in the massacres of the last few years in the U.S. would have been found out using this process.
This is one possible solution to controlling who owns guns without a constitutional amendment.
It is simplistic to believe the Adam Lanzas, Jared Luoghners, James Holmes' etc.. would not find ways to destroy lives had they not had access to firearms but, using this process would have made it more difficult for these distressed minds to formulate their plans. Possibly giving authorities clues along the the way.
The NRA and other 'gun-rights' advocates would fight this idea tooth and nail.
Personally, I think it is possible to implement such a firearm purchase program. A bill can be drafted using this idea by any local politician worth his/her salary.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
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coming soon to a school near you!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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He's famous among criminologists....because he made up his data then fabricated personalities that supported his position. Not someone I'd hang my hat on. Too bad as his position on guns may be solid. But fabricating data and pretending to be "Mary Rosh" or having his prepubescent son "write" reviews of his book is unethical imo. Your mileage may vary.
I haven't heard that, any 'data' to back up your claims?
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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There have been laws against murder going back into the mists of time.
People still murder.
Obviously, those laws don't work.
We should repeal that stupid law.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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Here is the wiki page text complete with Lott quotes about fabricated people. As far as the fabricated data, he appears to be the only researcher ever to lose all his data (not backed up anywhere) in an accident. :/. When researchers requested it, he sent them other data and when they couldn't replicate his own data, he suddenly recalled it had all been lost in an accident. As I noted - this is well known in the criminology circles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott);:
As part of the dispute surrounding the missing survey, Lott created and used "Mary Rosh" as a fake persona to defend his own works on Usenet and elsewhere. After investigative work by blogger Julian Sanchez, Lott admitted to use of the Rosh persona.[8] Sanchez also pointed out that Lott, posing as Rosh, not only praised his own academic writing, but also called himself "the best professor I ever had".
Many commentators and academics accused Lott of transgressing normal practice, noting that he praised himself while posing as one of his former students,[66][67] and that "Rosh" was used to post a favorable review of More Guns, Less Crime on Amazon.com. Lott has claimed that the "Rosh" review was written by his son and wife.[67]
"I probably shouldn't have done it—I know I shouldn't have done it—but it's hard to think of any big advantage I got except to be able to comment fictitiously," Lott told the Washington Post in 2003.[67]
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
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It is simplistic to believe the Adam Lanzas, Jared Luoghners, James Holmes' etc.. would not find ways to destroy lives had they not had access to firearms but, using this process would have made it more difficult for these distressed minds to formulate their plans. Possibly giving authorities clues along the the way.
No what's simplistic is the fixation on the tools and not what has caused an outbreak of psychotic rampages in the past 20 years.
Would it have been ok if he killed 10 babies with a hatchet instead? Would authorities have had time to catch him then? How much planning does it take to buy a hatchet and 5 gallons of gasoline and go kill children?
Don't you people get it?
Anti-gun folks remind me a lot of hard-core athiests. You're so pre-occupied with your fear of sharp things that go bang that you can't look for the root of this apparently growing problem.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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We get it Fear....seems to be a problem for you though.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
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One thing missing in the Liza Long piece posted by Lilabiene is Dad. Where is he, not a single mention. Is there any correlation between single parent households (mom only) and disturbed young men who become mass murderers? Not being sexist here, but perhaps if Dad was around as a role model and liberal dispenser of corporal punishment junior would be able to self control-with abundant and stern help of course.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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Well Crimpie, if true, that is pretty damning!
But I still think his premise of gun-free zones is pretty sound. They are a beacon for those who choose to prey on others.
And the industry of drugging kids with psychotropic drugs adds to it.
EDIT: I agree, Rick.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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Bluering's suggestion that the way to prevent mass murders at schools is to arm the teachers is interesting. Follow the logic and what you eventually get is that the way to prevent mass murders in any place is to make sure there are armed citizens in every place.
Remember the mass murder at a MacDonalds? Arm the staff at every
MacDonalds.
On a campus? Arm the students and teachers on every campus.
In a shopping mall? Arm all the store clerks in all shopping malls,
and make sure every shopper is armed.
At a baseball game? Arm all the spectators.
Since a psycho with the right firepower can commit mass murder anywhere, at any time, the only solution is to make sure everyone, everywhere, is armed at all times.
Is that really what you want?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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I think Lott did a lot of damage to his own position. Maybe what he believe is true. But what he did was turned many influential people away from it. That, plus the actual reliably collected data out there do not support his contention.
I find it incredible that he can continue to get jobs and sell his books even when he has admitted to some of this wrong-doing. Anyone wonder why he's no longer at the American Enterprise Institute? :)
He has never owned up to the making-up-data allegation, but at least in my opinion (and many other knowledgeable folks) it seems very much the case.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
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We get it Fear....seems to be a problem for you though.
Sorry... my forehead is sore from the keyboard today! Time to dream of some steep ice in your neck of the woods...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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fear, why do you equate my idea with "anti-gun folks".
Do you think current gun laws are too restrictive?
The recent tragedy in Newtown shines a bright light on the failures of our current gun registration/ownership rules and regulations.
Extreme views on either side of the debate are just that. They are fringe elements that should not dictate what the majority sees as failed policies.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
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Trading your freedom for security is a slippery slope.
Having this conversation about gun control without also discussing mental illness, our culture, family dynamics ect ect shows everyone is using this tragedy to push their own agenda. The hysteria on both sides of this issue is more telling about Americans thirst for drama and entertainment than it is about logical discussion of the issues at hand.
The motives are as wildly unique as the individuals that carry out these acts. It is unfortunate that this fact just doesn't fit in the American paradigm of one stop shopping.
It is simply too late to outlaw guns. The cat is out of the bag folks. That idea is just as stupid as everyone walking around packing.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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One of my earliest, most frightening memories was seeing pictures in Time magazine when I was 8 years old of the rows of bodies of entire families killed in the Jonestown Massacre. The 200 or so children that died that day in 1978 were killed with KOOL AID, not guns.
If I follow the logic (or lack thereof) of much of what's posted in this thread, it's access to Kool Aid that should be limited or regulated or banned. It wasn't actually a mentally disturbed person that caused the massacre, it was cyanide and Kool Aid. (The Kool Aid being the "gun" and the cyanide being the "bullets" in this analogy.)
I met Jim Brady when I was in college. It was an eye-opening experience to be sure. He wasn't bitter; he just had a new life's purpose (and one of the coolest wheelchairs I've ever seen). This had a material impact on the formation of my own views of gun ownership.
What baffles me to no end is that there is plainly a precursor to these massacres (however they are actually played out), i.e., mental illness, but rather than look at the underlying root causes, there are arguments flying around divided along party lines about guns, gun ownership, gun access regulation, conspiracy theories, etc. Very few people are willing to stop and consider other possible causes and solutions. Why is that?
Why isn't everyone howling over the abominable lack of access to mental health services and care? Wouldn't it be preferable to have people in treatment and not at home where they do not have proper access to care and terrorize their families and neighborhoods? Why aren't we writing to our Senators and Representatives (whether Federal or State) and demanding allocation of our tax dollars for mental health care and in depth research?
GDavis: I really liked your post, especially the last couple of lines.
To the folks paraphrasing Justice Scalia, read the majority opinion he authored in the District of Columbia v. Heller (as well as the dissenting opinions). He left room for gun regulation, and a large number of states have since enacted new gun control regulations. (Just to be clear, the only time I've ever agreed with him was when he used characters from the Tolkien trilogy in an analogy during a speech he gave in D.C. about 15 years ago. His approach otherwise typically raises my hackles with great frequency.)
And, hey, Jim Brennan, who ya callin' a GIRL?!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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Since a psycho with the right firepower can commit mass murder anywhere, at any time, the only solution is to make sure everyone, everywhere, is armed at all times.
Is that really what you want?
Yep. Someone to shoot the psycho.
Since most people are responsible and compassionate.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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Outlawing guns is an extreme view (see above)
Obvious flaws in our system that allow guns to reach the hands of mentally ill individuals is the issue.
So many folks here are knee-jerk reactionaries on both sides.
Mention gun control in the mildest sense and we're "taking away our constitutional right to bear arms!"
Mention solutions other than gun control and we're "paranoid gun-nuts!"
This thread serves as a window into the mindset of the masses and their inability to compromise and connect on a higher level.
The common goal being to send your children to school or a night at the movies in relative safety.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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Bluering - I'm curious as to your thoughts about the link I posted upthread (same page) given your position. (Dropline reposted it as a hotlink.)
This thread serves as a window into the mindset of the masses and their inability to compromise and connect on a higher level.
Like your comment PUD. It's nice to be able to discuss a topic vs. calling names.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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fear, why do you equate my idea with "anti-gun folks".
Do you think current gun laws are too restrictive?
I do not think current gun laws are too restrictive. I'm actually fully for closing gun show firearm transactions without going through an FFL so at least a good attempt at a proper background check can be done.
But my point is that gun laws, while maybe reducing more "normal" cases of gun violence, would have zero effect on the crop of recent complete insanity, like what just happened near where I grew up.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
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Like your comment PUD. It's nice to be able to discuss a topic vs. calling names.
I'll second that, with a slight change...
It would be nice to discuss a topic vs. calling names.
If only that were possible on ST.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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I like Dr.F.s class of 2014 photo
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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Crimpie, the CCW video you posted is pretty lame. Those were all people with a crash-course who had no ideas on how to handle a loaded firearm safely.
To me it was clearly biased against responsible gun-owners. Airsoft guy is now going to be the judge on CCW-owners? Lame.
I think there is a fair bit of dis-info in there too! Almost all gun-training is waaaayyyyy more than that.
I though it was lame. My $.02
Take the Oregon CCW guy again. He withheld firing with a gun on the suspect. For good reason.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 17, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts Blue.
edit: I think another issue Pud is that mental illness is not necessarily stable. One may be not mentally ill and gain access to a gun only to become mentally ill. Even if we had the perfect system to disallow access by the mentally ill, how do we deal with the instability of mental health?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:00am PT
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Good point Crimpie.
Unfortunately, sometimes mental issues while present, may not become obvious until it is too late.
The eventuality is that some individuals will slip through the cracks of any system we install.
The idea is to have professionals trained in locating clues of mental illness do the initial interview of prospective gun owners.
In a perfect world...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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It seems from recent posts that sensible people are acknowledging the fact that any particular spree of legislation is not going to directly (if at all) affect the incidence of these sorts of infrequent, spectacular events. Since the stated goal upthread was to either stop or reduce such events, my earlier query remains: Is there any proposed legislation that can reach the goal?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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The other thing is the notion that anyone who would do this is deemed 'mentally ill'. So what is coming first? Real mental illness? Or the killing?
Is there anyone who has committed a crime like this that we deem as 'not mentally ill'? Or is it a tautology?
Also, there are LOTS of mentally ill folks out there who do not shoot up schools, malls, theaters, homes, loved ones. Are we barking up the wrong tree by focusing on the mentally ill?
Not to say the lack of resources for those with mental illness is appalling, but most are not killers.
Fact is, it's not an easy answer and anyone offering easy fixes may be kidding themselves.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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"proposed legislation" is a drafted bill, correct?
I know Fienstein jumped all over it pointing directly to guns as the cause of the tragedy in Newtown. She most likely has her staff proofing something currently.
This type of legislation will not help, imo.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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Callie, I'm obviously pro-gun, and am biased too. I have need nor desire to carry a concealed weapon.
I do insist on having them in the house though, properly stored and locked down.
What's ironic to me is that people seem more wiling to allow CCW on colleges than elementary schools? Who are the more defenseless people and victims?
But again, it's all about guns in the hands of the rightly trained people who know how/when to use them.
I still pray daily for those little kids. My boy turns 5 in may. Hits close to home, man....
EDIT: Fact is, it's not an easy answer and anyone offering easy fixes may be kidding themselves.
Yep. We may need to think about this a bit before acting. Think clearly.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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1. Where is your loving god now? Where?
2. Only a cold hearted dumbass self serving redneck could see this and stick to the NRA GOP party line. Children gunned down and killed at school.
3. CHILDREN GUNNED DOWN AND KILLED AT SCHOOL!!!!!! and your worried about your "freedom" and your "rights".
4. Americans have abused their freedom. We've made a mockery of what this country was founded on. We've squanderd the american dream for guns, drugs, cigs, booze, lottery tickets, a big ass TV and a big ass gas guzzulling truck( then complain about gas prices). All on credit of course.
5. Were numbed to the horrors of war, violence and injustice. Were OK if our political canidates lie thru their FCUKING TEETH so long as our guy "wins". Were OK that the 1% ripped us off blind because you think that's gonna be you some day-it's not!
6. We've been played and sold out. Were broke, in debt, loaded and killing each other. And blaming it on anyone one who's not like us.
7.Maybe a little less freedom isn't such a bad idea.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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7.Maybe a little less freedom isn't such a bad idea.
See? This is what comes from reacting, and not thinking clearly....
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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Curious Bluering - does pro-gun to you mean pro-any-gun? Or are there some firearms you think best not to be available to members of the public?
This concept (gun availability) could be measured in many ways - but two major ways stand out. One is a dichotomy: that is, that one believes all guns should be available and others believe no guns should be available. (Incidentally in the research world, we call such measurement dichotomous variables, or binary variable and even dummy variables. It is the presence or absence of something).
A second possibility is a continuous measure. That is, on one end of the continuum is the 'all guns available' option, and at the other end, the 'no guns available option.' In between there are gradations of guns made legally available to members of the public.
So, my question is if you like the binary (either/or style? Or the continuous measure? And if you are a fan of the continuous measure, where would you draw the line? How would you decide? Do you decide based on your own skills? Or on the skills of the average man?
Thanks again. You know I appreciate your honestly on stuff like this.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:18am PT
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One thing missing in the Liza Long piece posted by Lilabiene is Dad. Where is he, not a single mention. Is there any correlation between single parent households (mom only) and disturbed young men who become mass murderers? Not being sexist here, but perhaps if Dad was around as a role model and liberal dispenser of corporal punishment junior would be able to self control-with abundant and stern help of course.
Are we developing a consensus here? More teachers need to be packing heat, and kids need more beatings.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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More Minimizing. . . . .
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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Is there anyone who has committed a crime like this that we deem as 'not mentally ill'? Or is it a tautology?
To say one who commits such an act is sane would probably only be useful in obtaining their lawful execution.
It wasn't one thing that caused the massacre in Newtown.
It is as complex as it is tragic.
As you noted Crimpie, answers won't be easy and most likely won't come from a message board.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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Agreed Pud. But I like hearing how others feel and how they arrive at their opinions. Many refuse to discuss and stoop to name-calling when asked about difficult and controversial issues. When someone is willing share their beliefs, I'm all ears!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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Callie, I think this discussion is confused by people who don't know what their talking about regarding certain guns and calibers.
That said, semi-auto guns with calibers of .223 and above should require special ATF licensing or equivalent, including mental pharmacology backgrounds (wouldn't prevent the current case of Mom's gun).
Everyone is obsessed with "assault guns". I have one. It's a .45 ACP handgun capable of firing multiple rounds with an easy magazine swap, over and over and over.
A hunting rifle, which everyone appears to be cool with, is a higher caliber than a .223. In fact, it is a preferred sniper rifle for troops in Afghanistan beacuse the rounds travel far, accurrately, and with punishing force. That is, the .308 caliber and the .30-06 round. A deer or elk-hunting round.
It's true, nobody hunts with a .223 because you use a .22LR to hunt varmints. But yes, a .223 will kill a human, not really a .22LR. The .223 has more powder behind it.
The .223 is a "compassionate" combat round. The .223 has a hard time penetrating body-armor. The .308 goes through.
My point is that a hunting rifle is just as dangerous as the .223 "assault rifle". The semi-auto handgun that all cops (and myself) own is equally capable of killing a lot of people quickly.
I want neither the hunting rifle or the handgun banned. The only reason I'd support the .223 ban is because I' not into that, never had a desire to own one. I only own guns for family protecting and rec shooting. It's fun. And that why most people own .223 semi-autos. They're fun to shoot.
I dunno. I guess my point is it's not the caliber, or rate of fire of a weapon.
Haters gonna hate, and killers gonna kill. Hard to stop.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:45am PT
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The killer awoke before dawn, he put his boots on
He took a face from the ancient gallery
And he walked on down the hall
He went into the room where his sister lived, and...then he
Paid a visit to his brother, and then he
He walked on down the hall, and
And he came to a door...and he looked inside
Father, yes son, I want to kill you
Mother...I want to...WAAAAAA
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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Good luck with your Rambo dreams of fighting Government Tyranny.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Maybe the weapons apologists are right. There is nothing that anyone can do. Actions we could take right now will never yield results, even if we take the long view -- 10, 30, 50, 100 years out. So, it's best we do nothing.
We should all get one of these and stand a post.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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The official mass media report.
Although he was carrying three weapons, he used only one of them in all of the school killings — a Bushmaster .223-caliber assault-style rifle similar to the one used by the snipers who terrorized the Washington, D.C., area in 2002. It was purchased legally, they said. He used one of the handguns to kill himself.
And the medical examiners report.
The medical examiner asserts that all wounds were caused by a rifle or other long weapon, and police/FBI say that the school was littered with .223 (rifle) casings. But Adam Lanza was found dead in the school with only handguns–a rifle was found in the trunk of his car. But then he could not possibly have been firing the rifle, and could not have committed the murders. Who did?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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Heh. Nice one Werner.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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Remember Charlotte Bacon, 6
They were supposed to be worn for the holidays, but finally on Friday, after much begging, Charlotte Bacon's mother relented and let her wear the new pink dress and boots to school. It was the last outfit the outgoing redhead would ever pick out. Charlotte's older brother, Guy, was also in the school but was not shot. "She was going to go some places in this world," her uncle, John Hagen, said. "This little girl could light up the room for anyone."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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At 200' range?
He killed at less than 20 meters range, bro. Handgun range. That's what gets me about all this. He could have done more damage with the 2 or 3 handguns, reloading only once.
He was crazy and obsessed with killing 'game-style'. It was not logical. But then a sane, logical person would not do these things.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:30am PT
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I don't know anything about guns. Freedom fighters, help me out.
If you pumped eleven .223 "compassionate" combat rounds into a six-year old girl at point-blank range - let's assume a couple to the head - what would she look like?
How much little girl would be left?
If the AR-15 fires a different round, forgive me - make the necessary adjustments.
Sorry if that image may be a little too graphic. Reality sucks!
Maybe you refer to me and missed my point. The .223 Nato round was developed as the full-metal-jacket round that was smaller caliber and would go through-through. It would not tumble upon entry and cause massive internal "in-compassionate" damage.
A .223 caliber handgun will kill anybody as will any other round larger (.38, 9MM, .45, etc). The caliber don't really matter and wasn't my point.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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"If you pumped eleven .223 "compassionate" combat rounds into a six-year old girl at point-blank range - let's assume a couple to the head - what would she look like?"
About the same had that person been hit by one round of 00 buckshot, only the buckshot pellets are bigger than the .223 bullets, and there are fifteen of them in a single magnum 12 guage shell.
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Bill
climber
Chalfant Valley
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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QITNL, I haven't owned a TV in 30 years. I don't own a gun either. What's your point?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:51am PT
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QITNL,
Almost any size caliber can be made in any type of bullet. Something that doesn't come apart will go through, full metal jacket. The world military agreed to use these so that they can shoot a guy, and then tie up another guy to get him to a hospital.
Soft point, nylon, hollow, lead, aren't designed to do that. They change shape upon impact and generally do more damage, have more stopping power for hunting.
The Hornrady zombie line, green-tipped, are for taking out zombies that way. They are the red-tipped hunting rounds re-painted by the marketing department.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:52am PT
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Well Crimpie, if true
look at blurring, trying to be mr. cautious skeptic while spouting off .223 Nato bullshit like he learnt it in 5th grade. we all know you don't know sh#t and don't believe the sh#t other people tell you unless it fits into your narrow little world view. pull your head out of your ass you moron.
http://bit.ly/YeR76F
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Bill
climber
Chalfant Valley
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:15am PT
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QITNL, well that's too bad, I had higher hopes from the left; that's the kind of thing I would expect from the babbling morons on the right (ad hominem, I know). I guess the left will have to go on without me. Painting graphic mental images of a six-year-old with her head blown to hamburger isn't a coherent argument for anything.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:26am PT
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WBraun
Dec 17, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
The official mass media report.
Although he was carrying three weapons, he used only one of them in all of the school killings — a Bushmaster .223-caliber assault-style rifle similar to the one used by the snipers who terrorized the Washington, D.C., area in 2002. It was purchased legally, they said. He used one of the handguns to kill himself.
And the medical examiners report.
The medical examiner asserts that all wounds were caused by a rifle or other long weapon, and police/FBI say that the school was littered with .223 (rifle) casings. But Adam Lanza was found dead in the school with only handguns–a rifle was found in the trunk of his car. But then he could not possibly have been firing the rifle, and could not have committed the murders. Who did?
i am terribly sad for all the people affected by this incident and the many others like it
particularly for those directly impacted
but also for the horrible shocks that have been sent out through our society
unfortunately this is just a glimmer of things to come
Dear Folks!
Please wake up and look beyond this issue of the red cape being waved in front of you about guns...
please wake up and look around you at how we are being manipulated!
it's not really about the guns, i truly wish it were that simple
with all due respect, most of you who are against private ownership of guns know very little about them or about the majority of people who own them
you see this sort of event and are horrified and fearful
most gun owners are your trusted friends and neighbors who quietly grieve along with us all, and are horrified and fearful right along side you
you see the horror and thus do not see the manipulators behind the chaos
there is no amount of regulation of guns that will mitigate this situation
i can guess that if there were any truth to that, most responsible gun owners would get on-board with it
but that is not it
only a mass confiscation can remove the millions of guns from our society
the results of that will be a revolution and human slaughter on a scale not yet seen in history
unfortunately you can realistically expect there to be another huge false flag scenario allowing our glorious leaders to order just that
most gun owners know that each regulation is a step towards confiscation
and confiscation is the last step towards complete totalitarian government
we are now almost there
prove me right or prove me wrong
you know not how much i risk by speaking out in this manner
but please, please my friends, wake up before it is too late
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:29am PT
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A child can carry it. Fits in a pram. Blow your head off. Blow your guts out.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:37am PT
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I think it's true that guns are the secondary issue. Controlling them better might save some lives or may not, and I doubt gun fans fears about confiscation have any chance of manifesting.
Fact seems to be that the guys who wind up going postal seem to be frustrated socially awkward types who have been dissed by people.
Sorta like we do all the time at Supertopo
Perhaps we should be treating each other better as the best step at reforming our culture that makes people reach for violence to lash out at a society that rejects them
peace
Karl
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:05am PT
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granite, i used to accuse you of being a provocateur who was not beneficial for anyone's mental health
but then it seemed like your mission orders changed to playing a relatively nice guy...
ah well...life goes on...
obviously it is challenging to extract true facts from horrific events like this, but it is not quite so hard to see a cruel pattern unraveling our society
and incidentally there are several people on this forum who might indeed wish they were present at that event and might very possibly have kept their wits about them enough to have stopped it before it progressed very far
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:36am PT
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do you have any medical training at all with older folks?
I'm trying to give you some insight...ya know???
Not as much as you. If you are saying what you think you are saying, that is what I'm afraid of. I'd prefer that you're wrong about that, but if you are right than, yeah, I should shut up. Does it always happen this fast?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:42am PT
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LOL, I'm ahead of you on that... halfway through
Edit: gone
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:00am PT
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just in case you are missing my basic point
this is not an issue of my logic or level of experience or anyone else's
this is an issue of whether you are willing to open you eyes and look beyond the horrific chaos of this and other such cases to analyze the escalating and repeating patterns warping this society
people, particularly young people, learn best by multi-sensory visualization and interactive training (works great for climbing, flying, driving...)
our younger generation is being fed a constant diet of horrific tv shows, movies, and interactive video games
the minds of many male children are being trained from a very young age as first person shooters
many children, particularly the more disturbed, are also being fed experimental psychoactive drugs with multiple side effects
some of those in particularly disturbed homes are also given access to lethal hardware
they grow up into the period of teenage hormonal emotional changes
do you suppose anyone could anticipate potential results?
(i've been seeing this coming for 20 years and complaining loudly to my contacts in the entertainment arenas)
big pharm, big media...aww it's just capitalistic market forces, there couldn't be any ulterior motives behind such a consistently broad repeating escalating pattern...
if anyone has an obsessive urge to legislate solutions, how about tackling the entertainment and pharmacological industries
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:03am PT
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TradEddie wrote:
Degaine wrote:
It's not those legally carrying guns that scared me, regulations are so strict and permits to carry are so hard to come by, that I can honestly say that statistically speaking I'm reassured that someone with the legal right to carry won't go on this type of rampage.
Where do you live? If outside the US, while your opinion is surely welcome, your observation is irrelevant, if inside the US, you have been badly misled. A chain is only as good as its weakest link, and in far too many states, purchasing a gun is trivially easy, and concealed carry permits equally so. While there are laws making it illegal for felons to possess guns, there are very few that make it anything more than inconvenient.
I'll admit that I did not take the time to specify state by state - I love how the "nothing we can do" guys like yourself get so pedantic with regard to posts/posters you disagree with, but react like a deer staring into headlights when asked for specifics on your end about how to solve the problem. But you're right, some states are much more lax than others. I'm most familiar with California law, and a family member who was a judge in California (had a permit to carry due to death threats) explained that permits in California were hard to come by. That written, my conversation with him on the subject dates back 3 or 4 years, so maybe the laws in CA have gone lax since then.
Regarding sales of guns, read what I wrote instead of just assuming. I wrote that purchasing a gun is too easy (and that more than once in this thread and on multiple threads in the past).
I'd honestly be interested in the stats you have regarding mass slaughters such as Newton/Aurora/Columbine/etc. committed by permit carriers in states where the laws regulating permits to carry are strict (i.e., not in Arizona or Florida).
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:07am PT
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people, particularly young people, learn best by multi-sensory visualization and interactive training (works great for climbing, flying, driving...)
our younger generation is being fed a constant diet of horrific tv shows, movies, and interactive video games
the minds of many male children are being trained from a very young age as first person shooters
I agree with you on that. The difference is that I don't think it's a government conspiracy and I do not think that the shooter was a government agent. I think its a combination of bad parenting, lack of mental health programs and making too many firearms too easily accessible.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:09am PT
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LilaBiene wrote:
If I follow the logic (or lack thereof) of much of what's posted in this thread, it's access to Kool Aid that should be limited or regulated or banned. It wasn't actually a mentally disturbed person that caused the massacre, it was cyanide and Kool Aid. (The Kool Aid being the "gun" and the cyanide being the "bullets" in this analogy.)
You haven't followed the logic (you're not the only one) and clearly have not understood what has been written by myself, healyje, and many others who share a similar point of view.
LilaBiene wrote:
What baffles me to no end is that there is plainly a precursor to these massacres (however they are actually played out), i.e., mental illness, but rather than look at the underlying root causes, there are arguments flying around divided along party lines about guns, gun ownership, gun access regulation, conspiracy theories, etc. Very few people are willing to stop and consider other possible causes and solutions. Why is that?
My honest apologies for singling you out, but you, like many others, are just not paying attention to what has been written.
Again, I, healyje, donnini, and many others have written that gun control is only a part of the solution (and gun control means not only stricter regulations to access, but holding the manufacturers and gun owners responsible for what crimes are committed with their weapons), and that healthcare, etc., etc.*, are key to dealing with what clearly is a problem.
*I'll elaborate on the etc., etc., upon request if you promise to actually read my post and others' posts on the subject.
Edit to add: P.S. you can add graniteclimber to the list, just read the post above this one.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:13am PT
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ron anderson wrote:
so the next climber that decks pulling cams as he goes, are we gonna blame the cams?
Remind me the last time someone used a cam to kill 20+ teachers and children at a suburban elementary school.
Oh, and before you start criticizing my logic, you've used none in making the stupid, very irrelevant comments like the comment I quoted.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:22am PT
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Ron Anderson wrote:
whats the diff between This one and Lockers pic? About a second and a half of time between round expended. that is all.
The pic you are referring to is a bolt action rifle.
I've shot both bolt action rifles and semi automatic many times, a bolt action rifle is considerably slower and it's much more difficult to hit a moving target than with a semi auto.
But you know this and you're just purposely being obtuse.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:29am PT
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I agree with you on that. The difference is that I don't think it's a government conspiracy and I do not think that the shooter was a government agent. I think its a combination of bad parenting, lack of mental health programs and making too many firearms too easily accessible.
i agree with you, there is no difference here, granite
Hey folks, check it out! Granite and i are in agreement!
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:06am PT
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I wrote the following in another thread, and feel that it is worth reposting:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1883519&msg=1913772#msg1913772
Degaine wrote:
First, there will always be deviants and criminals, but that does not mean that one should not have laws. But indeed, there needs to an effort that goes beyond simply banning weapons in order to address the violent crime in the United States. How about universal healthcare? Better schools? The village raising the child so to speak.
Second, this issue is similar to immigration or healthcare: the system is not changing because those who are making a huge amount of money off it don’t want it to change. For immigration, crack down on the employers and you will see much less illegal immigration; in healthcare the pharma companies and the big corporate providers are okay with bilking the American public as long as no one lifts a finger; and with guns, the gun/bullet manufacturers are all too happy to make money off the current system (legal or illegal sales, their bottom lines don’t care), crack down on them and things will change.
Third and lastly, I always find it ironic that those in favor of such repressive legislation as the Patriot Act, or trashing every other portion of the Constitution, evoke the second amendment as if they even care about the Constitution. Why not just be honest with yourselves, you like guns, like the easy access to guns in the US and are hiding behind the second amendment? Jody, et al, you know who you are, since when have you cared about liberty?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:50am PT
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Guns are like cigarettes...Let's make the gun manufacturers cover the damages from their products...Raise the price of ammo to pay for 2 armed guards at every school...There are ways to fix these copy cat crimes...Arguing about the constitution won't do anything to solve mass shootings...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:05am PT
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Ever since he witnessed Fram Mainella giving birth to John Dill's two-headed love child, Werner believes that in this crazy universe anything is possible.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:08am PT
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I think it's true that guns are the secondary issue. Controlling them better might save some lives or may not, and I doubt gun fans fears about confiscation have any chance of manifesting.
Fact seems to be that the guys who wind up going postal seem to be frustrated socially awkward types who have been dissed by people.
Sorta like we do all the time at Supertopo
Perhaps we should be treating each other better as the best step at reforming our culture that makes people reach for violence to lash out at a society that rejects them
peace
Karl
Karl, there have been frustrated socially awkward types who have been dissed since time began.
There have been mentally disturbed/retarded/autistic/etc type since time began.
At no point in history have so many "troubled" people comitted random mass murder and suicide.
Notice that on television there have been NO ads for psychotropics since the shooting? Right after the 911 call went out some lawyers in big pharma probably got paged too.
We're doing this to ourselves.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:08am PT
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from another thread i wrote
Dec 17, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
hey,heres a thought,base said"we cant round up the mentally ill",why not draft legislation that says all guns must have liability insurance.if the gun does any criminal harm,its consequences would be covered by insurance, at least financially .let the insurance companies decide if you can own a gun,let the free market decide.i have to have liability insurance to work,and drive in my state.not for my gun though.insurance companies would screen potential owners,determine rates and effectively manage ownership.how could you folks on the right stop free enterprise?is it unconstitutional?more so than auto or contractors insurance?this would certainly curb alot of the nut jobs out there and maybe satisfy the 70% that do not own guns,and we all would not have to pay for the 30% that play guns. w/obama not a worshiper
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:20am PT
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But, take the question into general "assault rifle" territory: Unlike .223, 7.62 isn't intended to only wound, right? So, if semi-auto handguns are equally capable of killing as assault rifles, why do troops carry FALs or AK-47s instead of just semi-auto handguns?
What I was told during military training was that studies showed that all else being equal in a firefight, the side that fires the most rounds generally wins (i.e. keeps the other guys heads down, allowing outflanking or other method to neutralize the enemy). A.223 round allows a regular soldier to carry more rounds in each magazine, and carry more rounds overall. The injured vs. killed benefit is also a factor. When long distance accuracy is needed, other rounds are more appropriate.
If you have to ask why soldiers don't carry handguns, you've obviously never fired a handgun at a target more than 10 yards away.
While I still think politics will mean no significant laws will be passed following this tragedy, I really do hope this weapon was legally bought after the lapsing of the assault weapons ban, and that at least may shame lawmakers into action on that one small piece of the complex problem.
TE
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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The .223 is a "compassionate" combat round.
Wow this thread keeps pooping out shitty thoughts.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Reminds me of BB gun fights when we were kids. The rule was to shoot your opponent below the neck so you didn't blind him. The dumb things kids do.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:48am PT
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I know this is old, and there is probably plenty here for both sides of the debate, but perhaps someone can point to something newer?
http://www.searchfortruth.info/sites/default/files/_bojs-guns-used-in-crime.pdf
Some key points for those that say nothing can be done, that there are too many guns already in circulation:
Almost a third of crime guns were less than three years old.
78% originated within the US.
Annually there were on average 341,000 guns stolen during the study period. By my moral compass, unless taken forcibly, that makes hundreds of thousands of irresponsible gunowners. Locking your door is not enough.
When I owned guns, if not actively in use, bolts, forestocks and magazines were removed and placed in a safe. I even had an antique open hammer shotgun, the firing pins and retaining nipples were in the safe too. If every gunowner was legally required to take reasonable measures, how many fewer guns would be in the hands of criminals in ten years time?
TE
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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just a fact Philo, the nato 223 round was meant to WOUND, not kill, which causes more men to come to the aid of the wounded and supply more targets.
Hi there I am a compassionate soldier I am only going to shoot you several times but with "compassionate" rounds. They will maybe go right through you and leave you in the dirt bleeding in agony. Ooops my bad, one in the head and four in the ass. Sorry but don't you feel better knowing I used "compassionate" combat rounds. Have a nice day. Next...
And the operative thinking in all this compassion is and supply more targets.
Hey look Medics. Ready aim fire.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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LOL, gun ownership is not soaring.
We have a lot of guns, but it's not soaring.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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Yes. Finally got one correct. Coincidence.
With out the plethora of easy access guns out there those rates would be much lower.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:10am PT
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Love your anecdotal reasoning, Ron. It's just so cute!
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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When I owned guns, if not actively in use, bolts, forestocks and magazines were removed and placed in a safe. I even had an antique open hammer shotgun, the firing pins and retaining nipples were in the safe too. If every gunowner was legally required to take reasonable measures, how many fewer guns would be in the hands of criminals in ten years time?
I couldn't agree more. If one can't, or won't, take the responsibility of gun ownership seriously, one shouldn't be allowed to have a gun.
I like the insurance idea upthread too. Make gun owners legally liable for the damages their guns cause, even if stolen. Require gun owners to have liability insurance, just as we require car drivers to have liability insurance, and let the insurance market manage the risk.
Lastly, someone mentioned upthread that there are people in this discussion who wish they could have been at Sandy Hook Elementary School last Friday morning. I am one of those. It's unrealistic to think one person with a Glock .45 would have, or could have, stopped someone with a Bushmaster. But if there had been five of us I bet we could have. Wishful thinking yes. It's very unrealistic as well to think of arming teachers, but interestingly, Adam Lanza killed himself before taking any fire.
He had no interest in a firefight, no interest in being confronted by someone else with a gun. At the first sound of a siren, an armed police officer, Adam killed himself. He apparently only had the stomach to shoot at the innocent and unarmed. It makes one wonder if even a single person with a gun willing to confront him would have been enough of a deterrent to stop him. I mean, really, the dude checked out before he even saw a cop.
Edited to add: Forget the Glock .45, I would have just brought the Mossberg 590.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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Gun violence is not everywhere. The US is way out in the lead among western nations in gun deaths with seemingly similar cultures like England and Europe FAR behind in per capita gun deaths and murder as whole. It's interesting that the countries with more gun violence are mostly in the Americas, with a couple in Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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Fear, I agree with you on the meds
I believe the most under-considered issue in the recent tragic shooting involves the potential side effects of psych meds.
While it may be true that there are some cases where people truly need medication for their mental condition, it's also true that anti-depressants are WAY over prescribed and anti-psychotic medications are being used outside of those who are psychotic.
Over 1 in 10 people in the US are taking them. (Many of them totally awesome people in my experience) Anti-depressant prescriptions have risen 400% since 1998 and they were overprescribed then.
These medications have documented possible side-effects of stimulating suicidal tendencies. (not conspiracy theory, on the label!) The destabilizing possibilities get worse when people are inconsistant with their meds or are coming off or going on them.
You don't have to be clinically insane to be depressed or volatile. I've known a few depressed people who spent years on med and went off them, and found themselves better off. They're a little less numb and still have their down periods, but free from the medication side effects, which can be profound, and even some of the intended effects not good.
This piece takes on the issue and is worth reading.
http://www.cegant.com/commentary/school-shootings-and-psychiatric-drugs-update
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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You have reported crimes reported to the police only Ron. That conflates changes in actual crime rates and changes in reporting behavior.
Also, property crime as reported cannot involve a weapon. Why? Because if you come face to face with someone burglarizing your home, that just was elevated to a personal (not property) crime. If that burglar has a weapon, that has just elevated to an aggravated assault (or rape or murder if that happens also). There is something called the hierarchy rule so looking at FBI property crime data and commenting on weapons is nonsense. None of those property crimes shown involved a weapon.
Sill, the story is similar in that until this last year, violent crime has been declining since about 1993/94 (depending on which crime one is considering). That information is based on crime that has and has not been reported to the police (NCVS data). This past year is the first time since the early 90s that violent crime went up in the US.
See, e.g., http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf.
It is difficult to conclude though that the increase is due to weapons because of the weaponed crimes measured in the NCVS, only aggravated assault went up.
Do you know how much violence is committed with a weapon? Most of murder is. About half of robbery is. Very little rape is. No simple assault is (by definition, simple assault in the NCVS cannot involve a weapon).
That will be 25$ in crime data lecture fees. :)
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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That will be 25$ in crime data lecture fees. :) And well worth the price of admission. Thanx Crimps.
Is it just me or does any one else get a little creeped out that after these mass gun murder incidents like the recent assault rifle slaughtering of 20 innocent little children and 6 brave American adults that Ron can't stop lubing his breach loader.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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You got to be a little nuts just to eat at an IHOP.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:32am PT
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Reminds me of BB gun fights when we were kids
Did you ever make those little tape cones around the end of sewing pins and shoot those? It was easier to see who and where you hit because they stuck. Shirts vs skins...
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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How civil of you Ron,
Using a "Compassionate" ass-ault like that.
What you mean she is not the hostess at IHOP?
Hmmm, who knew.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Yseterday I read a news story which described that young man in CT and though he was known to be emotionally unstable, nobody from the article saw any indication of violence, aggressive behavior or suppressed rage(acquaintances, relatives and one German language teacher in the college he attended, (at aged of 16/17) who could not recall him and only seemed to know he existed because he did in fact have the name and a grade in the class records).
Though I absolutely agree we have got to move away from using an autopilot prescription model for any issue, and we have got to move away from glorified violence as entertainment, this kid seems to have NOT raised any red flags. The one thing that came up was the mother's obsession that her son needed her constant care(which does have a familiar pattern with people who have killed en masse) but what mother with an emotionally disturbed child does NOT sense this obligation to some level?
It makes me cringe to consider the "blame the mother" aspect (not so long ago Autism was blamed on a mother being distant and cold) but how do we know how much protective care is "too" much?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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^^ +1
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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People that are all gun nuts thinking they NEED a bunch of guns (assault style in particular) for HOME SECURTIY are obviously very frightened people... And some of them might be exactly the people who should not have access or legal right to own these type of weapons. And thus the reason for their adamant 2nd Amendment argument.
I don't think ANYTHING locgical can change their minds... I don't think any of their brains are logical. Thus the dogged continuation of the adamant 2nd Amendment argument
Hey Hedge, is that you back there. lol
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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And now ,, our IHOP,, has been deemed one of the safest places to eat in Carson.. Due to the fact that most going there are now armed.. Im willing to bet that IHOP never has a repeat.
I'm a father of two 6/8 yr. old. Honestly... wtf ?
Perhaps this reasoning shows what's wrong with your approach to gun possession?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:45am PT
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But not as beneficial as buying 52 assault weapons. lol.
"And now ,, our IHOP,, has been deemed one of the safest places to eat in Carson.. Due to the fact that" everyone is scared SH!TLESS and the place remains EMPTY...
Except for all those Rambo-ettes waiting for their big chance to take down the baddie.
Like an episode from CHEERS. he walks in and in unison the whole place says RONg.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:32am PT
That will take nothing less than constitutional amendment, proposed by Congress or Constitutional Convention, and then ratified by at least 3/4 of the states, yes?
It WILL happen. With ever escalating fire power and a seemingly never ending cycle of American violence, it is simply and sadly a matter of time and bodies. I hate to be blunt, but we the people, 3/4 of us, are GOING TO PUT OUR FOOT DOWN.
Oh and those violent video games should be banned.
DMT
Hope you are correct, but it won't happen in my lifetime. I'm almost fifty-nine; and I think that 3/4ths of the states are red
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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This latest shooting has anyone who isn't utterly delusional in complete shock
And the rest are out cleaning out their local gunstores
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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I wonder if anyone knows how a hunting/target background factors into violence? Speaking from my own experience, from before I can remember, I was viscerally aware of the damage a firearm does to an animal, in a way that shooting a paper or clay target would never convey. My father's minimal safety guidance needed no more emphasis than seeing first hand what a gun really does. Could those who learn by shooting only at targets be more ignorant of the potential of their actions?
TE
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Dont cringe be happygrrrl. Who is blaming the mother? Where is dad in the equation? A kid with serious mental issues surely could benefit from a functional two parent household. I may be wrong, but i believe the majority of these eventual mass murderers come from broken or highly dysfunctional homes.Just another symptom of the moral degradation of this 21st century culture with 7 billion souls conditioned to seek there 15 minutes of fame/infamy the easy way.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:53am PT
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Just a few thoughts for you guys to break down from a gun owner or many of you consider a gun nut cause I have guns. I've already said it but most gun owners have nothing to do with the NRA, I think they are radical c*#ks@ckers.
In California it is one of the stricter states. We have a ten day waiting period, but from what I understand it only takes about an hour to do the background check and I'm not sure what they actually look for in this check. You fill out about 12 questions, have you ever been insane? Do you take medications for depression? Have you ever been suicidal? Have you ever renounced your citizenship? Now I'm not sure if they check your answers in the background check, but I don't think they do, without looking into medical history. By law you are required to have either a safe ora trigger locking device and ammunition is supposed to be stored seperate. Another thing they don't check, just ask. I do have a safe and do store my guns and ammo seperate. I was lucky to have been taught that guns are not toys and I believe It's a responsibility to own a gun not just a right. To purchase a handgun you need to have a handgun safety certificate, that is obtained by taking a common sense joke of a test. Also they require a state issued proof of residency, could be a pg&e bill. I think you can by 3 rifles per month (10 days wait for each) but only one handgun per month. Used guns is different.
I was in Texas last month at Cabelas. A young adult was purchasing a rifle and I asked how long before he could walk out the door with his new gun. The clerk said about thirty minutes, just long enough to do the federal background check. The clerk asked where I was from and when I told him he replied, " oh, I can't sell nothin to ya'll republic of Californians." I smiled and wasn't there to buy a firearm and left. I don't mind waiting ten days, but I'm not sure if they do anymore of a back ground check in the extra time. I've been told it's meant to be a cool down period to prevent an angry or suicidal person from buying a gun in less than an hour then using it and that's reasonable to me.
Just going through the process of California gun purchases and hopefully getting some thoughts from the antigun crowd on if this is a good way or it's flaws.
One more thing, to say anything is compassionate in war related thinking is stupid. Also, to think having guns is going to help us against our government is also very delusional.
Regards,
Justin Ross
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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Damn I just had a flash for a Monty Python-esque skit.
IHOP slammed with a ever increasing population of fully armed, armored and camoed Rambo-ettes.
Each nervously eyeing the door with every new arrival. Itchy trigger fingers (probably from the artificial blueberry syrup) wondering if this is the bad guy they can open up on. Will the next man in be the first man down? Tensions continue to rise till the waitress puts "Born in the USA" on the Jukebox. Suddenly the restaurant stars singing along. With the sheer frivolity of the moment they all break into a spirited Can-Can routine.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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"Its VERY telling here that some simply dont know what the crap they speak of.."
Tough to read that sentence, but I think we agree. In more simpler terms, you are completely full of sh#t and have no idea what you are talking about. Carry on...
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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Ron man, you are an Army of One brah.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Don't forget Blitthering that's two
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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How many people self-terminate with rope by hanging?
BAN ROPE!
That's three.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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put it on my tab Crimpie!;-)
You betcha!
True that I can talk crime data forever and I know what I speak of on that topic. I've put many a person to sleep, er, I mean into a trance over it. I LOVE data and measurement. Chapters, books, journal articles....Very fun! :)
Hey, IHOP and Dennys both serve very important functions! Next time you are clogged up, hit breakfast there. You will NOT make it out of the restaurant before things are cleared up. No joke.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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Surrender your static ropes at once!!!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
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See I knew you were really a hostest there.
Hey, IHOP and Dennys both serve very important functions! Next time you are clogged up, hit breakfast there. You will NOT make it out of the restaurant before things are cleared up. I think they call it the Grand Slam.
No joke.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Yes, i totally agree-absolutely no sale to jghedge
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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Hey, IHOP and Dennys both serve very important functions! Next time you are clogged up, hit breakfast there. You will NOT make it out of the restaurant before things are cleared up. No joke.
Lol
Nicelys, in Lee Vining, has the same effect
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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Hey Locks man don't be giving fecal matter a bad name.
Threads like this provide a valuable civil service by keeping nutters and their arsenals occupied and off the streets.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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The right to unfettered access to weapons and the right to carry them anywhere is part of the gun industry business plan. It is a minority view in this country. Just like the Republican party line in the last election. Once politicians realize this reality the gun right house of cards its coming down. Just a matter of time.
Gun ownership is down, crime is down, a fact the NRA would like to ignore
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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The army of three completely missing the point
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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And they are well armed......perhaps, but "the pen is mightier than the sword."
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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Rathole doesn't get it. LOL
Rong be told diffrunt, mussa be tea-roo.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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NOT ONCE did i HOPE that some asswipe would show up with a gun so i could shoot him. NOT ONCE.
My brother was into competition shooting. When they got around to shoot the breeze, that's all the other shooters would talk about, what they would do if somebody f*#ked with them.
I think TradEddie is onto something. As a kid, I shot a bird. It was horrifying, that poor thing died a slow death. I swore then never to kill anything needlessly.
That includes people.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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because the stores here tell me different
Ron, you live in cartoon city nv. what do you expect?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Ohh bad gun. Bad bad gun! Go sit in the Gun vault and think about what you've done. And give me your firing pin. No more shooting your mouth off young gun.
Reading, not just for comic books anymore.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Maybe if the shooters mother wasn't a gun nut he would have had to use a rope, hose or maybe even a mushroom. any of those would be better than the bushmaster. have you ever tried to get your kid to eat something they don't want?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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Hey Death kills people. Ban Death. Bad Death, Bad bad Death. Now go sit in the gun vault and think about what you've done. And give me your Scythe.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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Even if she stored the bushmaster properly, he could have taken it from her when she got it out, or easily duped her into getting it out.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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Ron,sounds like it's time to change zip codes
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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It must be californias fault!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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Hey Ron it sounds like you and yer posse aughta be roundin' them desperados up. Whatcha waitin fer pardna?
Not enough guns?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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Jumpin' off a cliff kills people. Ban cliffs and jumping. Can't be too careful now can we.
It must be californias fault! In my country we call her San Andrea.
People have lots of faults.
Ban faults.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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Go jump off a cliff.
I believe that's banned
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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"welcomed criminals" really DMT? And you would know this how?
Because he knows a guy in iraq who knows a guy in Korea who heard from a guy in the hot bed of Middle East BURMA.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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Ron,sounds like it's time to change zip codes
You might consider moving up. I hear Desert Hot Springs is the best.
I dont give a rats ass what you all think of me.
I have some rather bad news. No one has.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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I want to hear more about the Mushroom Murders. The nation doesn't cry enough about Mushroom Murders.
Where is the humanity, Mushrooms are being Murdered.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:48pm PT
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You tie up your intended victim with a rope then beat them with a hose until they ingest said mushroom
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
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Im laughing at YOU laugh with us not at us brother
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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You guys just don't get it
It's ALL about ME
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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Ron if you only knew you'd have to swallow a huge ass STFU pill.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
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Ron, do you fly the flag at your place?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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But you believe the Palestinians should be.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Had his mother been a RESPONSIBLE gun nut (which most probably aren't), she would have secured her weapons properly...
That wouldn't have ONE SINGLE bit of difference in this case.
Locking up weapons is important, and required by law in many places, including connecticut. It prevents kids and casual thieves from getting things they shouldn't have. That should be obvious to any responsible gun owner.
No gunsafe will stop an intelligent 20-year old guy during a psychotic break who just killed his own mother. You're looking at 30 minutes.
We're confusing 'normal' gun control issues with something completely different.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Ron - newsflash, Carson City is not representative of this country. Gotta open your eyes and look at the big picture
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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I love my land and river. I was raised here. Have buried freinds that died for this land here. In these times of nothing sacred, my lands remain sacred tome as any Washoe or Paiute.
Or Palestinian.
The lip flapping sound you hear is me giving you the raspberry.
The hypocrite salute.
Dude you'd be a great straight man. Your set ups are a slam dunk.
Want to hit the comedy club tour. We would be a smash sensation. "Philo and Rongo" at the Palladium.
"Say Rongo, how many gun nutters does it take to turn on a light bulb?"
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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But have pillows been used to murder mushrooms?
'Cause now, you know, like that would be, you know, kinda like bad.
Some people have too many pillows. Big ones, little ones, long ones, foreign ones, they even have things called throw pillows with shams.
Not to mention those horrific pillow fights teen age girls are always getting in to,
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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THIS just in:
LONGMONT, Colo. — Four people were found dead Tuesday in Colorado after a woman called police to report a shooting and was apparently shot to death while she was on the phone.
Weld County sheriff's spokesman Tim Schwartz says dispatchers heard the woman who called 911 scream "No, no, no," and then they heard a gunshot. Schwartz says a man grabbed the phone and said he was going to kill himself, and dispatchers heard another shot.
The bodies were found in a home in a subdivision east of Longmont, which is about 35 miles north of Denver.
The dead included two men and two women, including one who appeared to be in her late teens or early 20s.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
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GOD DAMMIT!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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But that never would have happened if they had been at the Carson City IHOP.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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outright bans are a kneejerk stopgap that does little by itself
except in England, and Canada, and etc
England, complete handgun "ban", 60 million people, 35 handgun deaths last YEAR
but yeah, I see what you mean
banning does not work
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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So start by actually enforcing the gun laws we already have.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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GOOD people will be penalized because they can't own assault weapons?
Or they have to go through AT LEAST as much training to own a tool specifically designed to kill as they do to drive a car?
Or they have to insure a tool specifically designed to kill things, and perfectly capable of killing many innocent children?
Those "GOOD" people should pull their heads out of their asses.
I had to wait 8 days to get a permit to build my fuking deck. There is no wait period for a handgun in most of NV.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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A major problem in this discussion (to the extent that it even IS a discussion) is the employment by both sides of bad analogies. And the most fundamental problem that makes them bad analogies is that they compare inanimate objects without considering intentionality/responsibility.
"Ropes are like guns" is bad, but the undercurrent of "gun owners are like whack-job mass shooters" is even worse in terms of not taking intentionality/responsibility into account.
Gun OWNERS are not the ones committing the vast majority of the crimes in this country, and they are not typically the ones committing these mass-shootings. If the REASONABLE suggestions from above, that the GOAL here is REDUCTION of violence, are to be taken seriously, then that GOAL is attainable pretty easily!
Everything from gangland use of guns to these horrific crimes committed by your average whackjobus maximus nutbarious involve guns "acquired" through non-ownership means. These guys don't walk into some federally-recognized gun store and say, "Hey, you know, I think I'd like that assault rifle over there. What's that, you say? $1,500? Oh, in that case I'll take three. Can I get 100-round clips for them? You have those in stock? Awesome, dude! Yes, I'll have those. Oh, and lots and lots and lots of ammo too, please."
DOESN'T HAPPEN!
So, all the posturing on this thread about further regulating gun SALES doesn't even scratch the surface of the real issue, nor will it have any measurable effect on the incidence and scope of mass-shootings.
The issue of "easy accessibility" of guns to criminals and orbital modules is fundamentally one of CONTROL over guns that are actually owned!
What's at issue here has been touched upon upthread, but then quickly drowned out in the terrible noise-to-signal ratio on this thread.
I, who am very opposed to touching the second amendment, am wholeheartedly in favor of legislation making gun owners AT LEAST as responsible for the whereabouts and usage of THEIR guns as car owners are responsible for the whereabouts and usage of their cars!
Insurance? Sure!
Mandatory reporting of "loss" or theft? ABSO-FRICKIN-LUTELY!
Mandatory lock-down of weapons that are not in the immediate possession of their owners, with CRIMINAL penalties for non-compliance? NO-BRAINER!
And the list could go on and on. I'm all for making owners FAR more responsible for the management of their guns.
Let's stop all the posturing about clip-sizes, weapon types, and so forth. A ten-round clip makes nary a difference over a 30-round clip to somebody who knows how to use the weapon. It's literally this fast, faster than you can read it: click, drop... pop. FIRING again.
OWNERS and actual legal POSSESSORS of guns are not the ones committing most of the gun-related crimes in this country. It's the ACQUIRERS that commit most of the crimes.
You're not going to SOLVE the mental health problems; you can rarely identify the scope and severity of them before-the-fact. You're not going to get rid of violent video games; and they (and violent TV shows) are demonstrably irrelevant. You're not going to see ANY significant reduction in either gun-related crimes or mass-shootings by regulating or eliminating such things as "assault weapons" or "large clips." (One of the worst mass-shootings in history was committed with a bolt-action hunting rifle from a bell tower, if you'll recall. And the DC snipers used a hunting rifle.)
What will have a significant effect in REDUCING these recent really spectacular cases is making sure that only LEGAL OWNERS have ANY access to the firearms they LEGALLY purchased. And legislation that could have an effect on THAT front is entirely doable and should not be offensive to any sane gun owner.
To whit....
Due to this thread, I now intend to very quickly become a gun OWNER. In fact, multiple times over. In fact, some seriously hard-core iron. Here in Colorado, that's quite easy to accomplish. Oh, along with the CCW I'll be getting while that can easily be done. And here I can get a dual-CCW with Utah, making it legal for me to CC in 42 of the 50 states. This thread has revolutionized my perspective on the NEED (not just the right) to both keep AND bear arms.
And I would WHOLEHEARTEDLY support legislation that would hold OWNERS more responsible for what is done with THEIR guns. I'm responsible with my cars, and I'll be responsible with my guns, as all gun OWNERS should be.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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say Philo what have YOU DONE to combat evil???
look at the bright side ron, philo is kept off the streets when he is on-line.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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Gun OWNERS are not the ones committing the vast majority of the crimes in this country, and they are not typically the ones committing these mass-shootings.
So it's the non gun people doing it? You are trying to make a semantic difference between owning as in a law abiding collector and possessing as in a law breaking acquisition.
Do you realize most of the guns used in these assaults were obtained legally often enough by the shooter. Happiness is a warm gun bang bang shoot shoot. Hope you are happy with your new dildo.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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Due to this thread, I now intend to very quickly become a gun OWNER.
Due to this thread I now do not intend to get a deck
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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Ron Anderson - The Mob made Nevada yes indeed.. But, THEY weren't the problem. They were a problem if you screwed with them, and ONLY then. Dood, certainly you jest?
This is what they would LIKE you to think. Truth is, many innocent people were at the wrong place at the wrong time, tell that to them ... OH I forgot, they ain't here no more, to late!
And then there are the people that just happened to have a long term business of some sort (any legit business) and they (Mob) decide to open a rival business, or are somehow getting in there way by simply being there or whatever down the street & suddenly, yep, "they were a problem"! And numerous other scenarios that I could probably write a book about, but this post will last about five minutes before it moves onto the next page and is history so why should I bother?
I worked in LV for several years (mid 90's) and came into very close contact with some people that had lived there all their lives. I got pretty close to those people because I was seeing them 3-5 times a week for an hour a day. Some of these people told me a lot about the Mob situation in LV! One dood came in and became my patient because one of his digits was amputated at just above the second knuckle (PIP joint). Told me he collected knives and liked handling them, etc. and had an accident. I left it at that, but was a little concerned about his hobby, because he was missing a digit on his other had at the MP joint. All went well (major risk of infection and losing even more of the digit/finger( and he was discharged. BUT, a month or two later and guess who's back with another missing digit exactly like the last (piP joint amputation requiring a 'flap procedure' etc)), same dood.
So he came clean with me, b'cuz he new I wasn't gonna buy the same excuse and three in a row is ... well, you get the picture! He starts the conversation like this, "You know Vegas is mobbed up, right? Well, my father owns a used car lot, but he is doing hard time in the state pen right now and I'm running the business ...!" ...
Another guy that has lived there all his life, a black man & pastor & radio personality that I became good friends with who also had a life long dream to open a mortuary (was working at one and licensed, etc) was getting a LOT of offers and a LOT of pressure from the mob to take a loan from them(& we all know how that would play out).
Etc, etc! ...
Wudevah!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Gun OWNERS are not the ones committing the vast majority of the crimes in this country, and they are not typically the ones committing these mass-shootings.
this latest guy used guns owned by his mother and not him
but the Virginia Tech mass murderer was legal GLock owner
does not seem to matter at all who actually legally owns the guns
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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Ron, wonder about what? You sticking up for my return? I honestly never gave it a second thought... I know everyone loves me, wants me, and needs me here.
I will repeat... I had to wait 8 days to get a permit to build my fuking deck. There is no wait period for a handgun in most of NV.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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I had to wait 8 days to get a permit to build my fuking deck. There is no wait period for a handgun in most of NV.
wait for it.........
try defending your life with a deck when you need a deck fast
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
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I defend our area rug from mud and debris. Do you know what 8 days of rain and mud with 2 dogs does to a carpet?
try killing 26 innocent people with a deck
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
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How long did that take in good old England, btw?
oh, about twenty years
why?
the universe is running out of time?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
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I guess that words like "typically" and "reduce" are just lost on this crowd. As I said, noise-to-signal ratio.
Oh, and I already have a deck.
Hey, Ron, what are your thoughts on the H&K P30 .40? It's pricey, but the Glock doesn't have good hand-feel for either me or my wife. The H&K fits both of us like a glove, and I've read nothing but good things about it.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Ron, unlike you I am not here trying to and prove my manhood.
As the post above demonstrates it has become another rod and gun show.
Does gun oil make a good lubricant for masturbation?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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I will repeat... I had to wait 8 days to get a permit to build my fuking deck. There is no wait period for a handgun in most of NV.
dude,
i checked the bill of rights. nowhere does it suggest its your right to have a deck. (tongue in cheek)
on a side note, there is no license or training required to have kids. lets start there to fix all the evils of the world.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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Well what are you going to do with all those kids already out there?
Oh yeah more guns.
Don't get distracted Rongo this is about guns being used to kill masses of kids.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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there is no license or training required to have kids. lets start there to fix all the evils of the world.
You HAD to say it! LOL
Now, THERE'S the big elephant in the room that nobody wants to admit is there, much less touch it.
I go to a grocery store, and EVERY TIME I see kids that I think, "Wow, is that our next mass-shooter in a few years?" Discipline and respect are right out the window.
It's Idiocrasy, I tell you. I'm getting guns.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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LOL JUST beat me to it!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
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Well what are you going to do with all those kids already out there?
Oh yeah more guns.
mmake the children listen to you for a day as an in class teachers aide...pretty soon those kids will be tossin themselves off the nearest cliff.
and you thought you had no useful purpose in life.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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I go to a grocery store, and EVERY TIME I see kids that I think, "Wow, is that our next mass-shooter in a few years?" Discipline and respect are right out the window.
It's Idiocrasy, I tell you. I'm getting guns.
Well you'll certainly should have an easier time getting a gun than you would having Children.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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THERE'S the big elephant in the room that nobody wants to admit is there, much less touch it.
Everyone I know is well aware of the problem and would love to bitch slap the piss out of those elephants.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Well you'll certainly should have an easier time getting a gun than you would having Children.
Oh, I don't know about that.
Seems that having kids these days is easier than ANYTHING else. No need to have any plan to support or RAISE 'em either.
Idiocrasy is the default state!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
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Ron the important list has already been posted several times. It includes the names of 20 children who wont see Christmas because of ANOTHER MASS SHOOTING. Get it.
All the rest is you stroking your vienna sausage.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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I'm gonna get guns! Lots and lots of guns!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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I'm gonna PACK em too. Plural. More than one at a time.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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That's exactly the WHY behind the fact that Nevada has always welcomed criminals... its good business until its not.
Reno and Vegas are great examples of the fruits of organized crime... no effect on you eh?
lmao!
hollywood....lol
perhaps not all criminal but really? bitchin at nevadans for the state they live in?
where is rokjox when you need him...
and the illegals who you benefit from having them visit the central valley to pick crops.
lol
btw,
i like movies and food.....
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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The little engine who could. Choo choo.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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I love our immigrant agricultural workers. The rest of you idiots don't realize just how much you rely on them for the food you eat... about 80% of the fruits and vegetables in the US.
The fact that economically challenged... sorry... culturally inferior people are moving to NV simply reflects the fact that housing prices in NV have dropped more than anywhere else in the country (~35%). Hmmm, I wonder who the big land owners might have been... the one's who finagled huge, unsustainable housing contracts with mad profits that pretty much guaranteed future slums. Couldn't have been those nice Italian boys...
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/cerberus-to-sell-gunmaker-freedom-group/
Cerberus to Sell Freedom Group, a Gunmaker
BY PETER LATTMAN AND MARK SCOTT
PRIVATE EQUITY DECEMBER 18, 2012, 5:54
Gretchen Ertl for The New York Times
The investment firm Cerberus Capital Management announced Tuesday that it would sell its stake in the country’s largest gunmaker after one of the company’s guns was used in the Connecticut school shootings.
Cerberus said that it was putting the company, Freedom Group, up for sale just hours after one of its largest investors, the California teachers’ pension fund, said it was reviewing its relationship with the firm. Also late Monday, the California Treasurer, raised concerns about the state’s pension funds’ investments in gun companies.
Cerberus, a private-equity and hedge fund firm based in New York, is owned by the billionaire financier Stephen A. Feinberg. His father lives in Newtown, Conn., where the shooting rampage at the Sandy Hook Elementary School occurred. The authorities say that Adam Lanza, the shooter, used a semiautomatic rifle made by Bushmaster, one of Freedom Group’s flagship brands.
Early Tuesday morning, at about 1 a.m. — after several media outlets highlighted Cerberus and the California officials issued statements — Cerberus issued a 400-word statement announcing the planned sale of company. “It is apparent that the Sandy Hook tragedy was a watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control to an unprecedented level,” the release said.
“The debate essentially focuses on the balance between public safety and the scope of the Constitutional rights under the Second Amendment,” Cerberus said. “As a firm, we are investors, not statements or policy makers.” The statement added: “It is not our role to take positions, or attempt to shape or influence the gun control policy debate. That is the job of our federal and state legislators.”
It is unclear who, if anyone, would be a potential buyer for Freedom. Over the past two days, the stocks of the publicly traded U.S. gunmakers, Sturm, Ruger & Company and Smith & Wesson, have dropped precipitously on the fears of increased gun regulation. A financier familiar with the industry said that several foreign gun manufacturers, including Forjas Taurus of Brazil and Herstal Group of Belgium, could be possible acquirers.
Cerberus said that it would retain a financial adviser to sell its interests in Freedom Group and then return the sale proceeds to its investors. “We believe that this decision allows us to meet our obligations to the investors whose interests we are entrusted to protect without being drawn into the national debate that is more properly pursued by those with the formal charter and public responsibility to do so,” said the statement.
The publicity-averse Mr. Feinberg came under the spotlight last decade after buying two of the country’s most well-known companies, the automaker Chrysler and the finance arm of General Motors. Cerberus, which made those acquisitions just before the financial crisis struck, suffered losses on both deals, and Mr. Feinberg told his investors that Cerberus would in the future stay away from high-profile investments.
Despite that vow, Mr. Feinberg again has found himself under scrutiny. Freedom Group’s origins date to 2006, when Cerberus acquired Bushmaster Firearms. The firm then consolidated the fragmented gun industry, acquiring at least six other brands and rolling them into one company to create Freedom Group, which is based in Madison, N.C., Freedom is on track to post about $900 million in revenues this year.
Other brands under the Freedom Group umbrella include Remington Arms, the country’s largest and oldest maker of rifles; Marlin Firearms, a manufacturer of lever-action rifles; and Advanced Armament, a maker of pistol silencers. The company attempted an initial public offering in 2009, but pulled the I.P.O. last year after its financial performance weakened.
Mr. Feinberg, has a penchant for investing in defense-related businesses. Its holdings include the military contractor IAP Worldwide Services and the satellite provider GeoEye. Cerberus also explored an investment in Blackwater USA, the private-security contractor since renamed Xe Services, but a deal never materialized.
A major Republican donor, Mr. Feinberg has a number of former prominent political and military officials on Cerberus’s payroll, including Dan Quayle, the former vice president; John Snow, the former Treasury Secretary; and George A. Joulwan, the former Supreme Allied Commander of Europe. He is also an avid shooter and hunter — favoring a Remington 700 — and has a membership at the upscale hunting club Mashomack Preserve Club in Pine Plains, N.Y.
Mr. Feinberg was raised in Spring Valley, N.Y., in Rockland County, and after graduating from Princeton, started his Wall Street career working at Drexel Burnham Lambert during the bank’s heyday in the 1980s. After developing a specialty trading in the distressed debt of troubled companies, Mr. Feinberg struck out on his own to start Cerberus.
His father, Martin Feinberg, 86, lives in Newtown, Conn., according to public records. It is unclear whether Mr. Feinberg’s father played any roll in Cerberus’s decision to divest its stake in Freedom Group.
Though Freedom Group was unable to complete its I.P.O., the deal has been a successful one for Cerberus, according to a person briefed on the investment.
If it is able to sell Freedom Group for a profit, some of the beneficiaries would be Cerberus’s investors, which include large pension funds like the California State Teachers’ Retirement System and the state’s other giant pension fund, the California Public Employees’ Retirement System, or Calpers, which also has an investment in Cerberus.
Bill Lockyer, the California Treasurer, said on Monday that those pension funds should not own stakes in companies that make guns.
“The bottom line is neither PERS nor STRS should have any investments in the makers of guns that are illegal in California, especially when those guns have been used to kill 20 innocent children and six innocent adults,” he said.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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jstan, thank you for that. One of the best posts to this thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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When you have 310 million guns in circulation without adequate controls then guns are incredibly easy to come by. Have 100 million guns in circulation with appropriate controls and guns will be markedly less accessible all the way around.
Mental health and 'culture' aspects of the issue can be worked simultaneously, but the proliferation and easy access to weapons needs to be curtailed as it is an enabling root cause of gun violence.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
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DISCLAIMER:
This thread is for entertainment purposes only. No part of its contents should be considered reliable or warranted for any serious purpose whatsoever.
KNOW YOUR LIMITS:
Don't post too much. Don't post while intoxicated or under the influence of mood-altering drugs. If you find that you are posting more than you can afford to post, or that you are feeling a compulsive need to post, back away from your posting device and seek professional help immediately.
WARNING:
Do not drive or operate heavy machinery while under the influence of this thread. Do not make important decisions while taking this thread, as this thread can create a false sense of well-being or paranoia that you will be unable to distinguish from reality.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane ~:~
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
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Ron Anderson - So tell me again, how has the Mob hurt me? Like I said, that was '96 & '96, so perhaps things have changed some as far as compitition etc, for the mob!
BUT, what I was addressing was, you said that they ONLY f*#k with you when, "if you screwed with them and ONLY then."!
Dood, I heard & know otherwise. I have not been following this thread that closely today, so I have no idea how this ties into your line of reasoning or supports what you are defending or some point you are making (or whatever). I just noticed this LIE of there's (Mob) that they propagated long ago about how they only F'with their own people (mobsters). Ain't so!
My friend, like I said, was/is a mortician and they gave him a LOT of sh#t b'cuz they wanted in (wanted him under their thumb) ... guess why? ...
And like i said "Etc, etc! ... "! Which means I heard all kinds of stories from honest people that said otherwise.
I went to high school (Hoover HS in San Diego) and graduated in 1968, and John Matranga & Sammy Vitale. etc. (gonna delete these names soon because i don't want them F'n with me for saying this because they are still here and very active) and I got to know them well. They were already building their connections & crew. They/we had "social clubs" eg. The Romans, The Elders & the Equitaz (forget how to spell it). I belonged to one of these "social clubs" for some time.
The Matranga's were the head mob family in SD (still are) & the Vitale's were right behind them along with several other families that went to my school because they all lived in a VERY high class and old neighborhood (at the time) called Kensington (mansions, etc) that was about 1-2 miles from my high school!
A year out of high school the headlines read one day "Sam Vitale (19 years old) arrested for operating a "cat" house in downtown San Diego." They put "cat house" to embarass his family even more. BTW, this wasn't some two bit operation by any means! Anyway, no one was surprised, to say the least.
Just around five years ago, there was this big story that broke about some incident involving mob corruption and politicians in SD and gun running etc! They stated that the Matranga family was who was in charge (big time) with all the food & beverage operations that are involved in ALL the casino's here in SD County (many) and these are BIG LV style casino (unreal). Anyway, how do you thin k they muscled there way in there, and how many casualties (innocent ones) that they left in there wake?
And I could go on and on. Like I said, I could right an F'n book about it, BFD cuz who would give a sh#t.
BUT, just saying this ain't so, "Ron A - They were only a problem if you screwed with them and ONLY then."
And the LIE they propagated, "We only kill each other." ...Pfffffffffff!
Like I also said, "Wudevah..."
edit: Ron - CAN YOU HERE/UNDERSTAND ME? I said, I simply saw your quote about how they (Mob) only screw with you if you screw with them!!! And I responded!
I don't know why you posted that or how it is conected with you being here on this thread for the last 3-4 days. I was talking about the mob in general. PERIOD!!!
!!!!!
!!!!
Capich?!?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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(One thread on this stuff is quite enough.)
1. The deaths of 26 innocents in Newtown were directly enabled by the murderer's access to an assault/semi-automatic rifle. At very least, the number of deaths would have been far fewer had the murderer not had such a weapon.
2. Such weapons have no purpose other than shooting humans, and incidental target practice - where the 'target' is usually a human silhouette.
3. It and similar weapons were illegal under US federal law from 1994 - 2004. (That doesn't mean that they weren't illegally owned then.)
4. If ownership of such weapons is made illegal again, it will take some years for the number of them in private hands to dwindle. But it will.
5. Your federal government has the power to prohibit the ownership, sale, manufacture and importation of such weapons.
6. It is a considerable distortion of the US constitution to read it to allow ownership of such weapons by the public.
7. It is a paranoid fantasy to believe that ownership of such weapons would enable private citizens to "defend" themselves from the government, let alone that they are a legitimate means of self-defence.
8. The governments could do considerably more with regard to diagnosis and treatment of mental health problems, and ensuring that such persons don't have access to guns of any kind.
9. If such murder weapons aren't severely controlled, similar massacres will occur in future. If they are, the possibility of such massacres will quickly dwindle.
10. It is better to light one candle, than to curse the darkness.
Given the above, anyone who does not now support enactment and enforcement of effective federal laws to prohibit ownership, manufacture, sale and importation of such weapons is morally an accomplice to the next mass murders that will otherwise occur. Over time, many lives will be saved. MOre guns aren't a solution.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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If the reading of this thread results in an erection lasting longer than four hours you are a certified gun nut.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/
A Land Without Guns: How Japan Has Virtually Eliminated Shooting Deaths
By MAX FISHER
281JUL 23 2012, 1:45 PM ET 794
In part by forbidding almost all forms of firearm ownership, Japan has as few as two gun-related homicides a year.
I've heard it said that, if you take a walk around Waikiki, it's only a matter of time until someone hands you a flyer of scantily clad women clutching handguns, overlaid with English and maybe Japanese text advertising one of the many local shooting ranges. The city's largest, the Royal Hawaiian Shooting Club, advertises instructors fluent in Japanese, which is also the default language of its website. For years, this peculiar Hawaiian industry has explicitly targeted Japanese tourists, drawing them away from beaches and resorts into shopping malls, to do things that are forbidden in their own country.
Waikiki's Japanese-filled ranges are the sort of quirk you might find in any major tourist town, but they're also an intersection of two societies with wildly different approaches to guns and their role in society. Friday's horrific shooting at an Aurora, Colorado, movie theater has been a reminder that America's gun control laws are the loosest in the developed world and its rate of gun-related homicide is the highest. Of the world's 23 "rich" countries, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is almost 20 times that of the other 22. With almost one privately owned firearm per person, America's ownership rate is the highest in the world; tribal-conflict-torn Yemen is ranked second, with a rate about half of America's.
But what about the country at the other end of the spectrum? What is the role of guns in Japan, the developed world's least firearm-filled nation and perhaps its strictest controller? In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally.
Almost no one in Japan owns a gun. Most kinds are illegal, with onerous restrictions on buying and maintaining the few that are allowed. Even the country's infamous, mafia-like Yakuza tend to forgo guns; the few exceptions tend to become big national news stories.
Japanese tourists who fire off a few rounds at the Royal Hawaiian Shooting Club would be breaking three separate laws back in Japan -- one for holding a handgun, one for possessing unlicensed bullets, and another violation for firing them -- the first of which alone is punishable by one to ten years in jail. Handguns are forbidden absolutely. Small-caliber rifles have been illegal to buy, sell, or transfer since 1971. Anyone who owned a rifle before then is allowed to keep it, but their heirs are required to turn it over to the police once the owner dies.
The only guns that Japanese citizens can legally buy and use are shotguns and air rifles, and it's not easy to do. The process is detailed in David Kopel's landmark study on Japanese gun control, published in the 1993 Asia Pacific Law Review, still cited as current. (Kopel, no left-wing loony, is a member of the National Rifle Association and once wrote in National Review that looser gun control laws could have stopped Adolf Hitler.)
To get a gun in Japan, first, you have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you'll file with the police. Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don't forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.
Even the most basic framework of Japan's approach to gun ownership is almost the polar opposite of America's. U.S. gun law begins with the second amendment's affirmation of the "right of the people to keep and bear arms" and narrows it down from there. Japanese law, however, starts with the 1958 act stating that "No person shall possess a firearm or firearms or a sword or swords," later adding a few exceptions. In other words, American law is designed to enshrine access to guns, while Japan starts with the premise of forbidding it. The history of that is complicated, but it's worth noting that U.S. gun law has its roots in resistance to British gun restrictions, whereas some academic literature links the Japanese law to the national campaign to forcibly disarm the samurai, which may partially explain why the 1958 mentions firearms and swords side-by-side.
Of course, Japan and the U.S. are separated by a number of cultural and historical difference much wider than their gun policies. Kopel explains that, for whatever reason, Japanese tend to be more tolerant of the broad search and seizure police powers necessary to enforce the ban. "Japanese, both criminals and ordinary citizens, are much more willing than their American counterparts to consent to searches and to answer questions from the police," he writes. But even the police did not carry firearms themselves until, in 1946, the American occupation authority ordered them to. Now, Japanese police receive more hours of training than their American counterparts, are forbidden from carrying off-duty, and invest hours in studying martial arts in part because they "are expected to use [firearms] in only the rarest of circumstances," according to Kopel.
The Japanese and American ways of thinking about crime, privacy, and police powers are so different -- and Japan is such a generally peaceful country -- that it's functionally impossible to fully isolate and compare the two gun control regiments. It's not much easier to balance the costs and benefits of Japan's unusual approach, which helps keep its murder rate at the second-lowest in the world, though at the cost of restrictions that Kopel calls a "police state," a worrying suggestion that it hands the government too much power over its citizens. After all, the U.S. constitution's second amendment is intended in part to maintain "the security of a free State" by ensuring that the government doesn't have a monopoly on force. Though it's worth considering another police state here: Tunisia, which had the lowest firearm ownership rate in the world (one gun per thousand citizens, compared to America's 890) when its people toppled a brutal, 24-year dictatorship and sparked the Arab Spring.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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I'm gonna PACK em too. Plural. More than one at a time.
They still have about 15 children to bury in Newtown, and our resident Christian, a man of God, has offered us this commentary. Way to lead by example asswipe.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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I have been enlightened...
"if only this nut job's first victim had a gun, how might things have been different? Oh wait, she did." - Anonymous FB post
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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Do they fluoridate up there in the Carson / Reno area?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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Make guns as hard to get as a conractors license.
That would be a good bumper sticker
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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I'm not belittling her. I'm calling you gun nuts on your bullshit "if teachers/students/everyone were armed..." bullsh#t. Her guns were used to kill her and 26 innocent people.
You know Ron, yer only getting older... weaker... slower... when are the Mexicans going to overpower you, shoot you in the face, and take your guns to kill other innocent people? Wanna bet? Care to put a little INSURANCE money on that, cuz many of us in this CULTURE would like you too... or maybe a renewal of your gun license(s) every 5 years, like a driver's license, complete with an eye exam and restrictions to use your firearm if you can't see beyond the color of a person's skin... of course you see such a request as a violation of your Constitutional rights... which is why most of us think you are being an idiot.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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Make guns as hard to get as a conractors license.
That would be a good bumper sticker
not sure if you are joking. but in many states it is not difficult at all...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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our resident Christian, a man of God, has offered us this commentary. Way to lead by example asswipe.
Whoever said I'm your resident Christian? You know nothing of my actual beliefs or what implications they have for the contents of this thread.
And "lead by example?" What a HOOT!
This crowd doesn't recognize a "leader" in the slightest. I even START trying to talk about anything serious, like scope of intention or the actual principles that underlie legitimate government (subjects about which I have a doctorate), and I'm told bs like, "People that treat our founders like gods are asshats" and so forth.
And the idea that it's possible to have a rigorous, careful, thoughtful DISCUSSION in this sort of context is laughable. A REAL, rigorous discussion can't be had in a context in which drive-by-shootings are the comments of choice, and in which the various senses of "acceptable" can't even be parsed out. We can't get clear about ONE WORD, and we're going to have a serious, productive discussion?
Get REAL. There's precious little serious going on in this thread, and what little there is is lost in the noise. Even the ATTEMPTED formal argument listing numbered premises just above is a JOKE! As a philosopher, I could shred it in a heartbeat. But then come all the "useless philosopher" dogpiles and "logical hat tricks" comments.
It's like the Calvin and Hobbs cartoon: "You're ignorant, but at least you act [vote] on it." Idiocrasy for sure.
Look, goofball, the Taco is a JOKE, and this thread (as well as most threads) IS for entertainment purposes ONLY. So take your "asswipe" comments and wipe your own with them. The noise-to-signal ratio on this thread is OFF the charts, and you only contribute to that problem.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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O.K. Nevada contractors license
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
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Well, I replied seriously to you about the second and originalism around three hundred posts or so ago.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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Ooooo, I thwink I hurt widdle dwickie's fweelings. *whaaaaa*
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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"And the idea that it's possible to have a rigorous, careful, thoughtful DISCUSSION in this sort of context is laughable."
Aren't you the same moron who was arguing about the Framer's intent a few pages back?
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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Hey Madbolter, I have learned a lot on the taco. Not from this thread because the signal to noise ratio is so messed up, but if you learn to filter, then there is lots of good stuff on the taco. I do agree that It has become virtually impossible to have a decent discussion on any hot button topics, but there is still good stuff.
I do feel the need to say that I find your arrogance repulsive. You are a philosopher who can shred any argument. I would say that you are less philosopher and more anal retentive rule freak who often makes things ten times more difficult then they need be. You ride a mighty high horse.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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Rush Limbaugh is a bloviating gas bag. He is a diviant sociopath with no redeeming value. He just referred to the death toll in Newton as "Chump Change".
Really.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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Gun lovers, why not support classes, licenses (with renewals), thorough background checks, insurance, and safety inspections? We have to do it for our cars, and we know how you LOVE to bring up auto related deaths anytime someone mentions gun deaths. Aren't "tools" specifically designed to kill worthy of AT LEAST equal regulation?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
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Well, I replied seriously to you about the second and originalism around three hundred posts or so ago.
Just looked upthread, and so you did. Noise-to-signal ratio problem. I DO try to "catch up" when I get back on thread. Sorry for not responding.
Your comments are indeed serious. The problem is that I despair of addressing them in this context. What does one say about originalism in a posting?
I guess I would start by saying that people are too quick to discard the founders as being irrelevant to today's issues, as taking their thinking seriously just is "originalism" (somehow just bad), as treating them as "gods," and so forth. My response to all of that is that these guys weren't just "popping off" in some forum. They were well-read, highly-educated guys that had thought through the PRINCIPLES of just government. Their thinking regarding the constitution was not a mass of what we now (in our infinite wisdom) can recognize as mistakes. And most people so quick to "comment" about the founders' relevancy or correctness now know literally nothing about the principles these guys risked their lives to codify.
Furthermore, the decisions of this or that Supreme Court over the decades CAN be deemed more or less "valid" based upon how well those decisions do or don't accord with the documented intentions of the founders. And why those intentions continue to matter is that THEY have prima facie credibility over heavily politicized decisions by people and courts that are often woefully ignorant of the PRINCIPLES behind the founders' intentions.
I'm all for the idea that the constitution was designed to be a "fluid" document! But not "fluid" in the sense of trivially manipulated by the passing whims of the masses. We are NOT a democracy! Popular majority does NOT rule in this nation in many contexts. And not one person on this thread has even acknowledged, much less stepped up to the plate regarding the very pertinent issue of Federalist 10: majority faction. The mere fact that a lot of people, even the majority, can get amped up about an issue does NOT give them (even as a majority) the right to trample on the RIGHTS (particularly as codified in the constitution) of anybody (even if the "anybody" is in the minority). So, ANY attempt to "address" the second amendment had better be VERY thoughtful and with a steady eye trained on the founders' intentions (as documented; this is no mystery). Those intentions were rigorously principled at a level people on this thread literally can't comprehend.
So, yeah, Joe, you have taken a stab at being serious. Much appreciated! But this context makes being serious basically impossible.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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Aren't you the same moron who was arguing about the Framer's intent a few pages back?
"Moron?" No. But, yes, I sure did... and with the predictable results.
I'm buying guns. Lots of them. This thread has shown me that Idiocracy is HERE.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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The next time such a massacre occurs - and it will happen - you gun lovers all need to look yourselves in the mirror and recognize an accomplice to murder. There's no escaping your moral culpability. Any real christian could explain it to you - you might as well be handing the shooter his murder weapon and ammunition.
That is, if you're not too self-centered to recognize anyone but yourself and your 'rights'.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Personally, I lay it directly at Scalia's feet at this point...
“We are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country,” Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the majority in the decision. “But,” he added, “the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.
Those twenty kids were just the cost of doing business according to his majority opinion in Heller...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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I do feel the need to say that I find your arrogance repulsive. You are a philosopher who can shred any argument. I would say that you are less philosopher and more anal retentive rule freak who often makes things ten times more difficult then they need be. You ride a mighty high horse.
If you had a shred of perceptiveness, you might recognize something other than "arrogance" in my responses to stupidity and to the ACTUAL arrogance of the people here that actually think their ignorant and unprincipled whining about "too many guns" and "rewrite the second" is going to solve anything. The ARROGANCE is on the part of people here with ZERO formal training on ANY of the subjects they address, yet they are INSTANT to call people not agreeing with them "asshats," "asswipes," etc. Quick to dismiss the founders, unaware of the principles that underlie the constitution, INSTANT to flush their own freedoms and those of everybody else in favor of a despotic government, if only it will keep them safe. It is SICKENING. And you don't like my "arrogance" in response to it all. Well, I'm not moved. You ought to be "repulsed" by a LOT of other things on this thread than that!
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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"I'm buying guns. Lots of them. This thread has shown me that Idiocracy is HERE."
You could save yourself some cash by just looking in a MIRROR. Idiot.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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You ought to be "repulsed" by a LOT of other things on this thread than that!
I have been repulsed. I have stated so many times. I have had discussions with many people on this forum about their behavior. I have been repulsed with my own behavior at times and had to apologize. I have much fewer pure hatred rants directed at me then you do, and I believe that is because I don't post from nearly as arrogant position as you do. You have a long history on this forum as being overly anal retentive and arrogant. Others have tried to show you this. I merely posted my opinion of you based on what I have read of you and because you make overly dramatic posts about the forum which I believe are untrue. Based on your above post, I know that you know nothing about me, so your above post is based on your own imaginations which stem from your own arrogance.
Instead of a beer, what I would love to have is some sort of device which would show a person just how they appear based on their own behavior. You have climbed some mad hard sh#t, which I have great respect for, but the rest of your persona is tedious.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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madbolter1 et al: Most of us have considerable training with regard to moral culpability for wrongs such as murder. Please stop avoiding and obfuscating the subject. If you're opposed to stringent regulation if not prohibition of weapons that no member of the public has a practical need for, and the only purpose of which is killing humans, then you're an accomplice to murder.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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Scalia would repulse the founding fathers. Scalia thinks it is okay to execte an innocent man in order to defend originalism. I asked Tony Baloney this directly when he spoke in San Diego years ago (2004). Question - "In light of technological advances with DNA, do you think the founding fathers would want a convicted person to have another look at their case if the DNA evidence would exonerate them". His answer was something to the effect of, well, they can petition the governor for clemency. Scalia is dusgusting.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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Madbolter1: So, ANY attempt to "address" the second amendment had better be VERY thoughtful and with a steady eye trained on the founders' intentions (as documented; this is no mystery).
I agree and believe Scalia failed completely in that respect.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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I have a hard time giving absolutes, but I would put the chances at very near zero.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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The next time such a massacre occurs - and it will happen - you gun lovers all need to look yourselves in the mirror and recognize an accomplice to murder. There's no escaping your moral culpability.
The next time a driver runs over a bunch of people at the side of the road, am I morally culpable because I own a car?
Explain the difference.
Dave
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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Norton, I agree with you.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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you gun lovers all need to look yourselves in the mirror and recognize an accomplice to murder.
You guys are idiots saying stupid sh!t like this.
Man .... Americans are so stupid ......
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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The next time a driver runs over a bunch of people at the side of the road, am I morally culpable because I own a car?
Explain the difference.
The automobiles intent is not for quick killing. A semiautomatic with a large clip is.
..
MH is not an American.. heh heh
Okay.. Okay.. he IS a north American. my bad
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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The next time a driver runs over a bunch of people at the side of the road, am I morally culpable because I own a car?
Yes, we all share some culpability for the evils and ills of society, given that we're part of it. However, in the case of assault weapons, the culpability is much more focused and direct. Also, the only real use of these weapons is killing people. We are our brothers' (and sisters') keepers, and we are most emphatically our childrens' keepers.
It is astonishing that so-called christians would respond to what has happened by opposing reasonable regulation, arguing that all teachers if not students should be armed, or that heavily-armed ex-soldiers should 'guard' schools. Perhaps they didn't get much past the first part of the pentateuch.
But I'm a mere sutpid mental speculator.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
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The next time a driver runs over a bunch of people at the side of the road, am I morally culpable because I own a car?
Explain the difference.
Rectumsquirt, here's the difference... my car was designed for transportation, not killing. I went through 30+ hours of driver's ed training before I was licensed to use my car. I have to renew my license periodically, which includes questions about how to operate and park my car. I pay insurance in case I hurt someone with my car. If I get caught driving my car drunk, I don't get to have a car anymore.
That should get you started...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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so guys,
serious question
how many of you agree with me that nothing
absolutely nothing
no "gun control" legislation
will be passed by both houses of congress and signed into law by the President?
so far Gary and John M agree no legislation will become law
anyone else?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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Nothing will happen. We are a nation governed by weasels elected by idiots.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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Yes, we all share some culpability for the evils and ills of society
No you do since you like to imply stupid sh!t like that.
Mannnn and you call yourself a lawyer?
Stupid Canadian .....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Nothing will happen. We are a nation governed by weasels elected by idiots.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Sorry, Werner - every religion teaches that we're all guilty, or as some put it, 'fallen'. Although maybe there are a few enlightened ones who aren't.
I hope that you're well, and the snow and ice aren't causing too many problems in the Valley. You live in something of an oasis, sheltered from many of the woes of the world.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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D Rhiner, if only someone on that military base had been carrying a weapon...
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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A study by the Stanford and NYC Law Schools indicate that our drone attacks in Pakistan have killed 176 children. Another study says that 36 civilians are killed for every high level terrorist.
It is sad that this recent school shooting captures the entire nation, but few seem to care about a much larger number of children killed by our drones.
With an estimated 16,000,000 or so gun sales in the U.S. in 2012, any attempts to control gun use and ownership by the Governments, either federal or otherwise, are bound to be ineffective.
In the U.K. gun ownership is rare, and they have a much lower homicide rate. But then in Switzerland, almost everyone has a gun at home, and likewise, gun violence is almost unknown there. So gun ownership per se is not the problem. I do not see the need, however, for anyone to own a semi-automatic weapon.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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but the rest of your persona is tedious.
I am a product of my times. And if you look at the history on these many threads, you'll see that the "battle lines" were laid down long before I issued my first post on the taco stand. You don't like my attitude? Walk a mile in my shoes.
There are a few people here that I know enough about to respect. Joe is one of them. You'll see that my tone is FAR different toward such people. Most of the "people" here hide behind anonymity and say horrible crap that they would never DARE to say face-to-face to anybody. And most people here truly are utterly ignorant.
You are right that not everything on the taco is worthless. But so much of it is that it is not hyperbolic to say that the taco is not to be taken seriously. And if you learn anything from the taco, then you are in the tiny minority here; most here already KNOW they are "right" and are incapable of following even an attempt at rational argument. The whole "acceptable" exchange is a case in point. LOL
And I don't think that climbing this or that gives ANYBODY, myself included, a "pass" to be a jerk. If I swerve into jerkhood myself at times, I do apologize for that. I'm not "anal," just really, really concerned about the fact that people in this country really are taking us into Idiocracy. I have as much a right as anybody to FERVENTLY decry what I perceive as profound threats to our basic liberties (and I have decried the Patriot Act, and so forth).
If my fervency, coupled with the fact that I am willing to say that I actually do know what I'm talking about, equal being arrogant. Then so be it.
STILL waiting for ANYBODY to ante up regarding Federalist 10.
And, Joe, you are spot on regarding Scalia. As so many of them do, he just misses the point completely.
Oh, and "Handguns?" Nobody even on this thread is talking about banning handguns.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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We are a nation governed by weasels elected by idiots.
My vote for best synopsis stated on this thread.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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every religion teaches that we're all guilty, or as some put it, 'fallen'. Although maybe there are a few enlightened ones who aren't.
Not necessarily guilty, rather we all carry the karma because we all live in the same universe/planet. Ie.. if you pollute the water that I drink, then I have problems too. I'm not guilty of polluting the water unless I condone what you do.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
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I have the answer regarding how to get gun control through Congress!
Present the following before Congress:
New drug for use at the 27th trimester
This should produce a Mars Attacks syndrome. The remaining members of Congress will pass a control measure by unanimous voice vote.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
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Well, you're doing an admirable job of dumbing it down, dude.
LOL... you can't handle the truth. I'm clearly not ABLE to dumb it down ENOUGH.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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Gun lovers, why not support classes, licenses (with renewals), thorough background checks, insurance, and safety inspections? We have to do it for our cars, and we know how you LOVE to bring up auto related deaths anytime someone mentions gun deaths. Aren't "tools" specifically designed to kill worthy of AT LEAST equal regulation?
As a part-time instructor and long-time enthusiast, I fully support mandatory classes, low-cost renewable licenses, and detailed background checks.
Also, most people I know aren't these crazed "gun nuts" you refer to. All ages, backgrounds, occupations, and both genders. I don't know a single person who would want to get into a firefight with anyone. Once you've been around firearms you learn very quickly you never want to be shot at. It would seem to me most of the "anti-gunners" here have much more of a preoccupation with firearms than do people who actually work with them. I'd love to meet this mythical macho "gun nut" who's just itching to shoot someone some of you see everywhere.
But firearm laws and the endless debates have nothing to do with the subject of the latest in a series of psychotic mass killing/suicides. To do so cheapens the loss of these babies and fails to address the root cause of the psychotic rages.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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I do not see the need, however, for anyone to own a semi-automatic weapon.
Well, self-defense, of course. The same reason why it's legal in PA to buy dozens and dozens of pistols each year. You never know when you might need 40-50 38 snub noses.
And there is more in the Constitution about gun ownerhsip than the Second Amendment.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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Look, instead of the one-upsmanship of "Hey, I can pop off with a better inflammatory one-liner than you can," perhaps we can get back to the FEW sane and actually doable suggestions of upthread....
Insurance was suggested.
Mandatory reporting of lost/stolen weapons.
Mandatory lock-ups of weapons not in the immediate possession of the owner.
And so on. These get straight at actual gun CONTROL.
Could we find some common ground on points like these, and gently and carefully work outward from there?
NO GUN CONTROL on one side, and BAN GUNS on the other side are going nowhere.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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Personally, I lay it directly at Scalia's feet at this point...
“We are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country,” Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the majority in the decision. “But,” he added, “the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.
Those twenty kids were just the cost of doing business according to his majority opinion in Heller...
scalia is bad....but stop it with the kneee jerk crap in believing that anythign the government could have done with gun control would have prevented this....
its as bad as those idiots who want to ban climbing everytime some dude dies on el cap or in your neighborhood, mt. hood. kneee jerks.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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fear, just get on one of the gun rights websites. plenty of quotes like:
"Own, carry, and WILL USE"
emphasis NOT added by me. they all seem just a little too enthusiastic about their metal penis.
Keep in mind, 49 of the 62 guns used in mass shootings since 1982 were obtained legally. Guns used in this kind of attack are not bought off your street corner variety wannabe gangsta.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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D Rhiner, if only someone on that military base had been carrying a weapon...
EXACTLY!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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Republican governor Snyder vetoed a bill that would have invalidated gun free zones. Maybe we are going to have a national discussion without being bullied by the NRA
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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madbolter1, my argument is to ban assault rifles and their equivalents, not guns generally. For moral reasons, if nothing else.
Just because such reasonable controls would take some time to properly immplement, and would never be perfect, is no reason not to implement them.
Some cold-hearted economist might want to examine the cost to the US of its lack of rational gun control policies. As with your health care 'policies', they're not only a national embarrassment, they're costing your country a lot in competitiveness.
Don't get me started on our bungling Stephen Harper. You'd just be bored.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
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Madbolter1, I do agree with you with regard to the INTENT and PRINCIPLES behind the Constitution. Where we may differ is on their sufficiency when extrapolated across the world which exists 225 years later. Intent in particular becomes somewhat lost-in-the-woods, however well-meaning. Have to dash, but will post up some more thoughts later.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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Hawkeye, my focus is not on this particular incident so much as reducing the overall level of gun violence in the country.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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fear, just get on one of the gun rights websites. plenty of quotes like:
"Own, carry, and WILL USE"
emphasis NOT added by me. they all seem just a little too enthusiastic about their metal penis.
Because the internet is not the best place to find the truth?
What you're seeing is the vocal minority. Because you're not involved with the sport you aren't getting the whole picture.
I can't even count how many people saw Alex Honnold on 60 minutes and came over to tell me I'm crazy to "do that". Or they hear about someone dying on K2 in the winter and liken that to my attempts at Rainier and Denali via normal routes in the summer. Most climbers are NOT crazy risk takers...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Where we may differ is on their sufficiency when extrapolated across the world which exists 225 years later.
I actually agree with this comment, Joe. Perhaps the real issue is better stated as "the principles of government that drove the founders' intent." I believe that those principles are timeless and that it is possible to thoughtfully map those principles onto modern policies.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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I have never believed that "all" gun owners are crazy. I know that most aren't. What I believe is that the ease of access to high power quick shooting and loading weapons adds to the problem. I do not believe that reducing access will eliminate the problem. In part because I believe that its not just the weapons that are the problem.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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I do not believe that reducing access will eliminate the problem.
But it should at least significantly reduce it.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
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Because you're not involved with the sport you aren't getting the whole picture.
Because you refer to the operation of a tool specifically designed to kill as a "sport" you aren't getting my full respect.
I'm well aware there are plenty of responsible gun owners. My brother-in-law and sister are both in law enforcement. I grew up with guns and currently own guns... wait, where did I put that thing again?
But until responsible gun owners start standing up and considering reasonable solutions/restriction... instead of crying about the big bad government coming to take away their guns... that vocal minority makes you all look worse than the dirty hippays who claim pot cures cancer and should therefore be available at every supermarket and corner gas station.
As a part-time instructor and long-time enthusiast, I fully support mandatory classes, low-cost renewable licenses, and detailed background checks.
Do you make this VERY CLEAR to your students and encourage them to support similar restrictions? Or do you withhold your views on your "sport" and let them believe what they will... cuz it ain't your responsibility... and only voice them anonymously to people you disagree with to prove what a rational person you are?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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2000
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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serious question
how many of you agree with me that nothing
absolutely nothing
no "gun control" legislation
will be passed by both houses of congress and signed into law by the President?
I disagree. I think that article where the hedge fund put the gun company on the block is telling. Maybe the guy's dad told him he was getting cut out if his inheritance if he didn't divest, but somehow I doubt it... I think that, to put up for sale a gun company at what can only be considered a very poor time for getting the bets price, is an indication that these financial people are anticipating a nasty risk.
I am thinking we may see a ban on certain types of guns, and also some regulations enacted which require changes to advertising(as has been done with cigarettes and alcohol).
How about making a ban on being able to purchase body armor for the casual civilian? Of course it serves a purpose in law enforcement and security jobs, and than the Universe for the added measure which has saved many a life. But maybe if these people who are looking to go out in a "blaze of glory" actually had to remain vulnerable in that one aspect...maybe they wouldn't be so quick to commit these heinous acts.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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I don't believe in black and white view points and that everything is going to be all right if we ban guns. Especially since this country has been buying and keeping them for centuries. I don't think some bureaucratic law is going to disarm the masses and somehow limit the danger. The gun culture is not going to just disappear overnight. The BIG issue for me is...
We desperately need mental health programs. The fact that the only long term care provided by the U.S. today is in the jail system is stupid. It leave so many folks unprotected, uncared for and it does endanger us, their families that try to care for them and it endangers the mentally ill themselves. I seriously think this is our biggest problem and I really hate the gun debate because it's detracting the focus from this. We have sick people who need help. "What say you?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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madbolter1, my argument is to ban assault rifles and their equivalents, not guns generally. For moral reasons, if nothing else.
I'm honestly sympathetic to your intuitions here (and those echoed by others regarding assault weapons). Assault rifles ARE designed to do one thing: kill people as effectively and efficiently as possible. They SEEM to have no reasonable application for an everyday person in a civilized society.
I would even agree that their possession will not turn the tide in the unlikely event that some significant body of the citizenry finds it necessary to rise up in armed revolt against their government. So, I'm not "holding the line" on these weapons even from the perspective that "they are needed for that purpose, if for no other."
Coupled with those comments, however, is where I do start to part ways from many on this thread. I DO believe that armed revolt was, if not expected by the founders, held out as a real possibility by the founders; and the second amendment concerns that possibility as much as anything. So, the phrase "be afraid of a government that is afraid of your guns," is not purely ridiculous. (Of course, the government is not AFRAID of our guns; it has the most powerful military the world has ever seen.)
The POINT to revolt is not to WIN it. WINNING, particularly in "round one" would even be highly unlikely, regardless of the weapons employed. The point to civil disobedience escalating to outright revolt is to make a POINT that perhaps can ultimately blossom into genuine change. Those involved in the initial civil disobedience/revolt HAVE to view their lives and property as forfeit. They have to believe in the principles they are fighting for enough to "give it all up" in favor of those principles. Then, like the mujahideens against the Soviets, they can ultimately prevail, even with WW2-era weapons against the most power ground force in the world.
So, if things ever did get to that point, I'd hope to have both the courage AND the weapons to make ENOUGH of a point that it could have the desired effect... given that I'd be trading my life or at least liberty for making that point.
In such a scenario, assault rifles wouldn't make the difference, but they'd sure be nice to have.
My worry about the present discussion of "banning" things is that: A) nobody has come close to demonstrating that there is any correlation between the legality of such weapons and their employment by nutjobs in mass killings, and B) these sorts of bans tend to be "wedge issues" that open the door to further bans, and so on.
I know that most on this thread think that A is obvious, but it's not and hasn't yet been empirically demonstrated (too many counterexamples).
So, address A and B for me, and I'm a happy camper. I'm not a frothing-at-the-mouth "gun nut." I'm honestly interested in genuine tactics toward a reasonable goal of "reducing" mass killings... and that without doing violence to the principles underlying the second amendment.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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A. If no one can obtain an assault rifle, they won't be used at all, let alone in murder. If it is very difficult to obtain one, legally or illegally, it will become much more difficult over time to use one in committing murder. Maybe not impossible, but much more difficult.
All sorts of other guns have been used to murder, but less often for mass murder - they're less suited to it. Plus have other, legitimate uses. Perhaps Crimpie has some statistics, but it seems safe to infer that assault rifles are disproportionately often used for mass murders, defining that as perhaps five or more at a time.
B. What's to prevent federal legislation that prohibits public ownership etc of assault weapons, but which explicitly endorses the rights to ownership of rifles, shotguns, and handguns - subject to reasonable limitations, e.g. licencing, state laws, mental health checks? It'd be difficult for any government to get around that. Not that I necessarily agree with so much gun ownership, but perhaps it would be a suitable trade-off.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
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Mighty, you and I are almost on the same page here. I'm still not with you on A, but something like B could get it done. And regarding A, it's moot given an acceptable approach to B.
I honestly don't think something like B will have the desired effect. But I'm happy to go with it in deference to those that think it will. In a SOCIETY, there has to be compromise. As long as banning assault rifles (carefully defined) isn't a wedge-point for attacking principles that I really am committed to defending, I'm good with it.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
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As long as banning assault rifles (carefully defined) isn't a wedge-point for attacking principles that I really am committed to defending, I'm good with it.
Maybe you could clearly and unambiguously define those principles and save us all a bit of time. Do those principles include things like the gun show loophole, fast background checks so as not to delay your "sport", limited training, no insurance, and no mandate for safe storage?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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Do those principles include things like the gun show loophole, fast background checks so as not to delay your "sport", limited training, no insurance, and no mandate for safe storage?
I made it clear VERY recently upthread that I thought a number of earlier suggestions, including two of the ones you just mentioned (their converse, actually), are ones I favor. I even said that I thought that suggestions like these could be appealing to both sides of the debate, as they are not explicitly about BANNING anything; they are about owner-responsibility and legal acquisition.
So, to "save you some time," you could avoid insisting that things CLEARLY stated not be repeated (I said the same thing twice before this already).
Regarding the "principles," these are not principles. These are tactics. They have nothing to do with principles, which are about what constitutes just and defensible government correlative with the inalienable rights of the people. It is possible to employ tactics consistent with such principles, and it's possible to employ tactics inconsistent with such principles. I see suggestions such as mandatory insurance, safe storage, etc. as consistent with those principles; so they are tactics I would find entirely acceptable.
As I've said (repeatedly), I think that such tactics could act as the basis of both sides finding some common ground upon which to build a consensus.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
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Thanks for almost clarifying. However, you wrote a bunch about tactics... even ripped me for not reading your earlier posts about said tactics... like anyone is going to go back through 2000+ posts of this sh#t... but the only thing I see regarding principles is:
"what constitutes just and defensible government correlative with the inalienable rights of the people."
which seems pretty ambiguous.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Since modern day gun ownership has almost NOTHING to do with a "well regulated militia" one could argue the 2nd amendment does not apply to an individual's right to own a gun.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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ban the intardnet.....force some of you guys off your buts. it will drastically improve your health.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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ban the intardnet.....force some of you guys off your buts. it will drastically improve your health.
LOL, obesity kills more people than guns.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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^^^^ yep. thats the logic!
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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Fascinating (as always) piece on NPR as I drove home. It presented the case for arming personnel in schools, in a way that seemed like it was a reasonable, measured response to a security problem.
Then it politely obliterated its own argument by noting that Jim Brady of Brady Bill fame was shot in the head while standing in one of the most secure places on the planet, surrounded by the most highly trained and well armed personnel on the planet, just feet from Ronald Reagan...
TE
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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how was the climbing today Locker?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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locker was climbing? needlessly endangering his life just for a few endorphins?
take that climbing gear away from him, he is a danger to himself, and i bet his belay credentials are out of date....not only that, he could have fallen on a tourist. danger to others that he is....
:)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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Since modern day gun ownership has almost NOTHING to do with a "well regulated militia" one could argue the 2nd amendment does not apply to an individual's right to own a gun.
I certainly didn't mean to "rip" you. And this one exchange between us exemplifies the very problem with this "discussion."
You don't want to read 2000+ posts, which is understandable, but it means that a "discussion" is untenable. Upthread, in what was widely panned as a "rant," I actually very carefully wrote about the second amendment, including why the part that you quote is logically irrelevant.
This explanation will probably also be panned as "clear as mud," which will only indicate the pathetic state of education in this country (which, btw, might go further toward explaining mass shootings than the mere availability of certain sorts of weapons).
The big mistake that people (including some SC justices) make with this amendment is that the "rationale" the founders stuck in there is in the logically antecedent position. Thus, whether or not it is true (or still "valid" or still "applicable"), the "right not be infringed" part, is logically unaffected. This was by design; the founders knew exactly what they were doing. To clarify, here's a brief symbolization and truth-table:
Well-regulated militia part = W
Right not to be infringed part = R
W > R
W | R || W > R
---------
T | T || T
T | F || F
F | T || T
F | F || T
This truth-table encapsulates all of the logical relations between the antecedent and consequent parts of that amendment. The ONE way to falsify that amendment would be to find a scenario in which the antecedent was true and the consequent false. That would be if a well-regulated militia WAS necessary to the security of a free state, BUT it WAS the case that the right of the people to keep and bear arms must be infringed.
In NO scenario in which the antecedent is false is the consequent threatened, nor is the truth of the conditional relation threatened. So, falsifying the antecedent accomplishes NOTHING of what you want to accomplish regarding the amendment or its consequent.
In short, attempts to show that the whole "militia" bit is a giant mistake, is false, or is no longer useful... none of these scenarios LOGICAL threatens the consequent of the amendment. It's just not an approach that can work.
In order to go after the "right" part, the consequent, you HAVE to go straight at IT. Trying to falsify the antecedent ONLY renders the consequent at worst "unsupported," NOT falsified.
But we believe all sorts of "unsupported" things, things that are not "supported" by any conditional relation with a true antecedent. The founders, logically speaking, by placing the "right" in the consequent position were effectively baldly stating the consequent, should the antecedent "ever go out of style," so to speak.
You don't like the antecedent? Fine. Then what you are left with is, baldly, the consequent. You cannot, logically speaking, go after the consequent BY going after the antecedent. So, all attacks on the "militia" part are doomed before they get started... that is, in a RATIONAL, LOGICAL approach to the issue.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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not only that, he could have fallen on a tourist. danger to others that he is....
Sure.. but could he have gotten multiple tourists? I'm willing to bet he couldn't get any more then 3. I can live with that risk.
Now if you could get me up something, then I'm willing to bet my fat ass could take out at least 5. You should ban overweight climbers.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
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But we already 'infringe' on the right. No full automatics and many other restrictions.
So MB1 seems to feel anything goes, anytime, anywhere, otherwise, it's an 'infringement'.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
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Now if you could get me up something, then I'm willing to bet my fat ass could take out at least 5. You should ban overweight climbers.
on the contrary, we should let all climbers over 400 lbs climb. they cant get too far. its those pesky devils between 200-400 you got to worry about.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
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Former Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper said Tuesday that the Second Amendment should be repealed.
Former Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper said Tuesday that repealing the Second Amendment would help curb the type of gun violence witnessed in last Friday's massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.
"I have seen over the course of my 34 years of police work countless homicide and other shooting victims -- I know what bullets do to bodies," Stamper told HuffPost Live host Alicia Menendez.
"What I think is necessary is for responsible gun owners to recognize that in no way would my suggestion of repealing the Second Amendment -- and not necessarily replacing it with another amendment, but I wouldn't rule that out either -- that we create legislation that makes sense for today's world, not the world that existed at the drafting of the Constitution and certainly the Bill of Rights," Stamper said.
Stamper made the comments during an appearance on HuffPost Live, reiterating a stance he laid out in a blog post published Tuesday on The Huffington Post:
We are in denial about our duty to stop gun violence. We're awed by what we perceive to be the power of the National Rifle Association, and the political clout of those members of congress whose loyalty has been purchased by the NRA.
So we wait. We wait for the next slaughter, knowing it will surely come. Nothing has changed, nothing will change. Not unless we resolve to become, in the president's aspirational words, "better than this."
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corysue
Boulder climber
reno,nevada
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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After I heard there was another mass shooting at a school, I didnt even need to know the whole story to know who dun it... White adolescent male between age of 16 and 28, middle to upper middle class, that is socially isolated with poorly developed empathy and spends and inordinate amount of time playing video games on the computer.Social isolation, high testosterone levels, desensitization to violence through virtual reality is just not a good combination. Guns or no guns it wont matter. These youths will use hatchets, cars, whatever to attain a feeling of excitement and achievement. These kids need to have less computer time and more real world experiences.
More importantly how many more of these kids are we breeding now?
Eventhough kindergarteners do not learn as well on computers to read or do math they are being placed in gaming mode from preschool on. Even though our nations achievement score are low for a developed country we continue to believe that socializing is what high school is for. Instead of learning with high expectations, we dumb down our schools, and outlaw discipline.
I do not doubt that this kid will be found to have been on a physchiatric drug like ritalin. After all he was male. So many of our male youths are drugged in hopes that they will be more easily controlled. It would be more efficient to put electric shock collars on them or simply castrate them.
This is also a comment on a society where the dad is often missing from the home and celebrity is synonymous with achievement. Lets face it at least once a teenage boy needs to be taken by the scruff of the neck and have a "Come to Jesus" moment by his dad(unless mom is one hell of a bitch, she wont cut it on her own)and Dad's can demand respect with out being a celebrity.
One more way to stop this and its the easiest: have complete media black out when these events happen. That way when young depressed isolated middle class american males decide to check out and say the final "f*** you" they dont immediately think a mass murder is the ticket to get them on the news and make them what they could never have been in real life- a Virtual Commando -a Celebrity.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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on the contrary, we should let all climbers over 400 lbs climb.
LOL, now thats just cold. Implying that because I said that I was fat, that I weigh over 400 lbs.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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More importantly how many more of these kids are we breeding now?
we breed em like rabbits, all day and night we fornicating
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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lol, not you John. i am also in a heavy weight category that could endanger spotters and tourists....not to mention causing environmental damage.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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we breed em like rabbits, all day and night we fornicating
no training required,
no "cooling off period",
and the kid doesnt even come with a training manual.
the government should fix that.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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This explanation will probably also be panned as "clear as mud," which will only indicate the pathetic state of education in this country (which, btw, might go further toward explaining mass shootings than the mere availability of certain sorts of weapons).
. . .
The big mistake that people (including some SC justices) make with this amendment is that the "rationale" the founders stuck in there is in the logically antecedent position. Thus, whether or not it is true (or still "valid" or still "applicable"), the "right not be infringed" part, is logically unaffected.
You don't like the antecedent? Fine. Then what you are left with is, baldly, the consequent. You cannot, logically speaking, go after the consequent BY going after the antecedent. So, all attacks on the "militia" part are doomed before they get started... that is, in a RATIONAL, LOGICAL approach to the issue.
Great post, but unfortunately, I'm not sure you'll get much traction as most people either don't really care about serious jurisprudence, or if they do, they view it simply as tool to be manipulated to get whatever outcome they want.
Nevertheless, if anyone does care about how the 2nd Amendment *should* be interpreted, you've made it very clear. This is one of the relatively few seriously debated legal issues that actually does have a right answer. (Although ultimately, regardless of "logic", Supreme Court justices appointed by Dems will do away with it. Even though they would be illogical in doing so, that's not exactly unprecedented in the law. As the "great" Supreme Court Justice Holmes said, "An ounce of history is worth a pound of logic.")
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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Corysues first post. what a doozy. That you Ron?
Its looking like the kid had mental illness problems. Not hyperactivity. I seriously doubt a "scruff of the neck, come to Jesus" talk would have done any good.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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I do not doubt that this kid will be found to have been on a physchiatric drug like ritalin. After all he was male. So many of our male youths are drugged in hopes that they will be more easily controlled. It would be more efficient to put electric shock collars on them or simply castrate them.
i get it....take their balls but allow them the freedom to own assault weapons? got it.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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NOTICE: THAT THEY BOTH ENHANCE PEFORMANCE
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
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But we already 'infringe' on the right. No full automatics, etc.
The mere fact that any majority faction succeeds in infringing on this or that right already... well, that does not make it justified to infringe on other rights or further infringe on any given right.
The question before us is whether there is some way to reduce mass-killings while NOT infringing on anybody's rights. Just saying "we already infringe" doesn't help the case for more infringement (if, in fact, you are correct that it IS an infringement).
I think what you're getting at is that we consider the right to bear arms a "limited right" rather than an absolute right. Thus, we would not technically be "infringing" on that right.
Whether or not this approach to the amendment is correct is certainly a matter of much scholarly debate. I favor an interpretation that says that the founders provided a rationale in the amendment TO say something about its scope, in effect saying that the right is a limited right rather than an absolute one.
But it's important in this limited vs. absolute reading to not conflate the scope with the right itself. The founders' SCOPE was those arms "the people" could ever in principle need in order to FORM any ad hoc "militia" with the intent of securing (or re-securing) a FREE STATE. And, within that scope of necessity, the government must not INFRINGE in ANY WAY the right to both have and to bear any arms qualifying for that scope of applicability.
This is why all this talk about militia is wrong-headed. People miss the fact that the founders imagined ad hoc militias springing up to secure or re-secure a free state. And they imagined that such militia would be composed of everyday people that would be armed in advance for just such a purpose. Thus, ANY sort of weaponry that could be reasonably applicable in such a scope would be protected by the amendment.
On THIS interpretation, I can very consistently say that I favor the average Joe having assault weapons, while the average Joe has no use for nukes! Now, if you can come up with a plausible scenario in which the US government is threatening its own people with nukes, then I would say that the average Joe has a second-amendment-guaranteed right to a nuke.
In short, the second amendment, on the most plausible reading I know of, guarantees the average Joe (as part of "the people," that is NEVER ambiguous in the constitution) the right to have and BEAR whatever weaponry could be reasonably necessary for a ad hoc militia to rise up and secure or re-secure a free state.
I am well aware that this whole mode of thinking runs counter to what is now mainstream thinking, particularly in other nations (which we SO much want to emulate). But OUR founders FEARED government, and we should too! And OUR founders wanted to ensure that "the people" (which has ALWAYS meant you and I) had the resources to rise up and overthrow their government should that ever become necessary.
Talk about "that's not practically possible now" is meaningless. As I said above, the point of armed revolt is not to WIN (at least, probably not in round one). The point is to make a sufficiently strong statement that ultimate change does occur. History teaches us that people often don't win in round one. They win OVER TIME by ultimately paying SUCH a price that many others finally notice, and then finally take up the cause.
We are presently FAR from revolt-thinking in this country, and we have been for a very long time. But the founders knew what they were doing, and the second amendment was designed to, in effect, protect us from ourselves... to protect us from glibly VOTING certain rights away just because we didn't happen to value them anymore.
Put the second amendment in proper context, and with a proper interpretation, and you DON'T get on some slippery slope to anything like: "Oh, well, then you are saying that Joe gets to have a nuke." No, nothing like it! But, yes, Joe does get to have an assault weapon. And you don't get to infringe Joe's right to that weapon just because a few orbital modules misuse such weapons.
That said, I have agreed that giving up assault weapons is not such a violation of the PRINCIPLES I believe in (see just above) that I can't compromise on that point. So, let's ban assault weapons and see if in a decade or two we have less mass-killings involving assault weapons. We can keep revisiting the empirical data, always seeking to keep the best possible weaponry in Joe's hands (as the founders intended), while doing our best to address the orbital modules among us.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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This truth-table encapsulates all of the logical relations between the antecedent and consequent parts of that amendment.
Your argument presumes not only that the framers were all philosophy majors (as opposed to people with real jobs and real-world experience) and constructed their statement with the intent you read into it, but also that they could clearly see hundreds of years into the future.
If you want to argue that the way to deal with the current problem is to arm everybody, then fine, make that argument. Or make whatever other suggestion you think appropriate. Personally, I suspect the framers would have laughed themselves silly at the thought that people hundreds of years in the future would treat their words as sacred.
Think about it. These were intelligent people. People who knew both history and the way of the world they lived in. Do you think they were incapable of looking at the changes since, oh, 1530 and concluding that maybe things would continue to change?
Do you really think that if all of them had somehow survived the last couple of centuries that they themselves wouldn't be lobbying for change where they though change was important?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
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The question before us is whether there is some way to reduce mass-killings while NOT infringing on anybody's rights.
No, the question before us is WHY THE FUK NOT infringe on people's desire to obtain weapons on a whim, with less regulation than cars, simply because they interpret that desire as a right given to them in 1791 when ALL GUNS had a 1 cartridge capacity.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Must know what he is talking about!
(shhhhhh, don't tell him cartridges were a 19th century invention)
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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The founders' SCOPE was those arms "the people" could ever in principle need in order to FORM any ad hoc "militia" with the intent of securing (or re-securing) a FREE STATE.
n short, the second amendment, on the most plausible reading I know of, guarantees the average Joe (as part of "the people," that is NEVER ambiguous in the constitution) the right to have and BEAR whatever weaponry could be reasonably necessary for a ad hoc militia to rise up and secure or re-secure a free state.
If the requirement is a weapon that would allow a militia to re-secure a FREE STATE, then automatic weapons would have to be included, along with tanks, missiles, and considerable other weapons. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.
And yes, I read your earlier argument about at least providing enough stopping power to make someone take notice. My belief is that if our military were to ever rise up and try to take America, then no group of citizens would have even the slightest chance to stop them. Our only hope would be if the rest of the world decided to take a part in stopping them.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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Your argument presumes not only that the framers were all philosophy majors....
Uhh... actually, they WERE. These guys were highly educated (particularly in political philosophy), EXTREMELY well read, and were able to argue at a level completely absent in the USA today.
"In a republican nation, whose citizens are to be led by reason and persuasion and not by force, the art of reasoning becomes of the first importance" (Thomas Jefferson).
"Civilized life depends upon the success of reason in social intercourse, the prevalence of logic over violence in interpersonal conflict" (Juliana Geran Pilon).
Nobody rises to my challenge to talk about Federalist 10, probably because they subconsciously just want to help me make my point that we don't think or reason at that level anymore.
The founders didn't NEED to be able to see hundreds of years into the future, because the PRINCIPLES (not the specific tactics) that ground our founding documents are timeless.
You can debate tactics all you want, but they had better cohere with the timeless principles, or you'll just be illustrating ignorance.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:21pm PT
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Oh Piton Ron, yer so smart... you caught me.
Okay, a 1 shot capacity. How does that change the argument?
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
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Must know what he is talking about!
(shhhhhh, don't tell him cartridges were a 19th century invention)
You understood what he meant. You wanted a conversation without insults. Why do you add to the insults if you understood him? Do you think we are all stupid? I clearly understood that he meant single shot between reloads.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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I'm sure if those who wrote and thought of the 2nd Amendment were here today, they would laugh if you asked them if they meant every citizen should own a single shot weapon.
Nevermind, they'd be too busy shooting the sh*t out of a .223 bushmaster.
They'd also tell you to defend yourselves and your loved ones.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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Who do you consider a "framer" of the constitution?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
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My belief is that if our military were to ever rise up and try to take America, then no group of citizens would have even the slightest chance to stop them. Our only hope would be if the rest of the world decided to take a part in stopping them.
You're imagining the reverse scenario from what our founders imagined, and also the reverse of most of the revolts in modern history.
What happens instead is that a relatively small group of "disgruntled" citizens forms up, becomes a guerrilla militia, and begins calling attention to their grievances world-wide, while making life as miserable as possible for the far more overpowering, entrenched government (which, of course, employs the military at ITS disposal).
Over time, the militia gains adherents, its cause is evaluated for validity in world opinion, gets some help of various forms, and even causes dissension and revolt within the mainstream military itself. If all goes well, the militia can ultimately win (as might just happen in Syria and as did happen in Cuba).
That's a "best case" from the perspective of the "disgruntled." And, regardless of the "win," the "disgruntled" are living according to their principles, which is their most basic human right. If they die and/or are ultimately put down, then so be it.
That sort of scenario does not presume that full blown tanks, etc. are necessary. As I've said, not even assault rifles are "necessary." And, as I've said, my MAIN concern with any talk of "banning" is that it typically acts as a wedge-point toward full disarmament.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
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Mass murders with firearms were virtually unknown when the amendment was written. Things need evolve as society and knowledge evoles.
Like the Dr. said, may not matter.....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
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[quote}madboloter uses the same twisted logic to write proofs on gods existence.... wasn't that you Phd?? Or something along those lines anyway...[/quote]
Yeah, whatever. Something along those lines. You know, something, like, whatevers dude.
Clearly you didn't care to follow along, so you've got little to say in this context.
And, actually, I didn't argue for a "proof," as I said in that context that a "proof" is probably impossible, a la Kant. What I did say is that the Ontological Argument is the best candidate for a "proof" we know of, AND that even if it went through, it wouldn't get you the Judeo/Christian God.
Of course, that was a slightly high-level argument, so I get that you couldn't follow along. But, you know, dude, whatever... something like that.
ROFL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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You understood what he meant. You wanted a conversation without insults. Why do you add to the insults if you understood him?
Insult?
Sheesh John, was that an intentional discharge or do you just have a hair trigger? lol
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
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And, as I've said, my MAIN concern with any talk of "banning" is that it typically acts as a wedge-point toward full disarmament.
Seems like an unfounded fear considering that we already ban fully automatic weapons.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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Sorry Ron.. guess I am on a hair trigger. I didn't see the humor in it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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I don't give a damn what the guy who wrote the 2nd "thought" back in 1790 What matters is what WE 21st century Americans think about it NOW
And just when I think that we might be getting somewhere....
See, if I thought that this was just a troll, I would laugh at it. But, seeing the history of Norton's posts, I take it seriously. And the sentiment is WIDELY shared, which is what really troubles me.
Seriously, Norton, READ Federalist 10, intelligently discuss what a majority faction is, and then let's see if you think the same way as you presently do.
If you really "don't give a damn..." then you scare the crap out of me! And the fact that SO many in this country today don't seem to "give a damn" about what the constitution actually SAYS, and MOREOVER, what PRINCIPLES were espoused in its crafting... that is what is, truly, motivating me to go out and buy guns. You guys are frickin SCARY!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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Actually John your last statement about banning automatic weapons is false, but a common myth.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
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As far as I understand, one can't own a modern fully automatic weapon. Is that not true?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
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Seems like an unfounded fear considering that we already ban fully automatic weapons.
Well, it might be unfounded, but better to be safe (and careful) than sorry. And, if you look upthread, there's been a LOT of pretty inflammatory talk. Even the most recent "don't give a damn..." post is pretty good grounds to be concerned.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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How do you define "Framer" of the Constitution Madbolter? Curious.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
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the right of the people to keep and bear fire arms shall not be infringed
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
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Well, it might be unfounded, but better to be safe (and careful) than sorry. And, if you look upthread, there's been a LOT of pretty inflammatory talk. Even the most recent "don't give a damn..." post is pretty good grounds to be concerned.
Thats kind of a funny argument from you considering your earlier lambasting of this forum and its lack of representation of truth. The majority of people I know that are against assault type weapons are not against bolt action rifles. I see a couple of people on this thread who want to drastically reduce all gun ownership, but otherwise I see mostly people who want to curtail semi automatic or fully automatic assault type weapons.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
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You can own a full auto, you can't own a full auto made after 1986. You can't own live grenades either.
Still, that's an infringement, right MB1?
So we already 'infringe' on the right to bear arms.
You are not going to get very far with the 'infringe' argument MB1.
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Enthusiast
Sport climber
Port Townsend WA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
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It's so weird, I just don't feel anything towards this...
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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You can own a full auto, you can't own a full auto made after 1986.
Watch out for that slippery slope. First they stopped making it easy to buy explosives, then they banned modern fully automatic weapons. Whats next. my bb gun? You'll have to pry my bb gun from my cold dead hands.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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How do you define "Framer" of the Constitution Madbolter? Curious.
I'm curious why this could possibly matter to you. Are you going to "catch me" if I leave one out that you had on your list? Are you interested in whether I consider the anti-federalists, such as Patrick Henry, to be among "the framers?" Are you considering "the framing" to be a lengthy process that would thereby have some "framers" out at the point the document was finalized that had been "in" at its inception? Why does this matter?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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You know, John, every time I think we're on the brink of some productive conversation on this thread, people like you have to head deep into sarcasm, and others have to just fully PUNT and go straight to personal attacks and ridiculous, inflammatory stupidity.
Somehow, the consensus we talked about upthread is completely lost at this point. And we're now left with little more than the fact that Riley can use Google (amazing in itself; but, sadly, he's not even able to recognize the import of what he found or who wrote it).
Okay, I've reached my frustration threshold for the evening.
Outy
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
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Often those who worry most about their spouse cheating are the ones who are doing the cheating.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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Speaking of WHY... WHY don't you just answer her question???...
Because it's a question that's irrelevant on the face of it. If she can explain its relevancy, then perhaps I'll consider it worth answering. As asked, it's not.
Now, I'm outy. No more cross-posts, please. I'm trying to get out of here for the evening. lol
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
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You know, John, every time I think we're on the brink of some productive conversation on this thread, people like you have to head deep into sarcasm, and others have to just fully PUNT and go straight to personal attacks and ridiculous, inflammatory stupidity
There is that arrogance again. You act as though only others sh#t stinks and yours has the waft of orange blossoms.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
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just in case you are missing my basic point
this is not an issue of my logic or level of experience or anyone else's
this is an issue of whether you are willing to open you eyes and look beyond the horrific chaos of this and other such cases to analyze the escalating and repeating patterns warping this society
people, particularly young people, learn best by multi-sensory visualization and interactive training (works great for climbing, flying, driving...)
our younger generation is being fed a constant diet of horrific tv shows, movies, and interactive video games
the minds of many male children are being trained from a very young age as first person shooters
many children, particularly the more disturbed, are also being fed experimental psychoactive drugs with multiple side effects
some of those in particularly disturbed homes are also given access to lethal hardware
they grow up into the period of teenage hormonal emotional changes
do you suppose anyone could anticipate potential results?
(i've been seeing this coming for 20 years and complaining loudly to my contacts in the entertainment arenas)
big pharm, big media...aww it's just capitalistic market forces, there couldn't be any ulterior motives behind such a consistently broad repeating escalating pattern...
if anyone has an obsessive urge to legislate solutions, how about tackling the entertainment and pharmacological industries
Pretty much agree. But allow parents to discipline rowdy kids instead of 'Ritalin-ing" them.
I guess many new-age, yuppie parents don't want to be harsh on their kids though. Not say, "No!!!, you can't have/do that!".
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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You know, John, every time I think we're on the brink of some productive conversation on this thread, people like you have to head deep into sarcasm, and others have to just fully PUNT and go straight to personal attacks and ridiculous, inflammatory stupidity.
You ever look in a mirror, mad bolter man? Your approach to "productive conversation" is so insultingly arrogant that it effectively makes conversation impossible. You talk about Norton's posting history. Well, look at your own posting history (with an open mind) and then maybe you'll understand why most people here find it so easy to engage in "ridiculous, inflammatory stupidity" whenever you show up.
Even Bluering, with his "fuk you, you c*#ks@ckers" is easier to take than you are.
Edit: Steve, that wasn't a reference to your post above, which you made while I was writing mine. Just a reference to a remark you've made a time or two in the past.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
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I'm curious why this could possibly matter to you. Are you going to "catch me" if I leave one out that you had on your list? Are you interested in whether I consider the anti-federalists, such as Patrick Henry, to be among "the framers?" Are you considering "the framing" to be a lengthy process that would thereby have some "framers" out at the point the document was finalized that had been "in" at its inception? Why does this matter?
My goodness. A simple question gets this response? People define things in different ways. Even common words. I would have thought you understood this given your doctorate and all. You clearly know a bit about this topic and I wondered if there was some sort of accepted definition of 'framer' in your field. Could it be one who signed the Constitution? Or is it one who contributed heavily? Or something else? It is a simple question.
You whine about the dialogue on this thread - that it doesn't meet your standards. Review your response to my simple question and see that you are a large part of the problem you complain about.
edit: And by the way, please don't bother answering if you are suddenly inclined. I no longer value your thoughts so your answer - even before offered - is irrelevant.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
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FWIW bolter, your posts have not clarified anything. They come off as pedantic and pompous. I know plenty of smart people who don't rely on baffling people with pretentious bullshit to make their point. I know some very insecure academics who use pretentious bullshit to obscure the lack of substance in their arguments... usually philosophy types. Your input on this subject is as irrelevant as blurrings... you are idiots from different ends of the spectrum.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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My favorite pro gun logic.
If we outlaw murder, only outlaws will commit murder.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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Madbolter said
Seriously, Norton, READ Federalist 10, intelligently discuss what a majority faction is, and then let's see if you think the same way as you presently do.
If you really "don't give a damn..." then you scare the crap out of me!
yeah, I did read the Federalist Papers, back in Law School in 1970
and yes, I feel the same way now as I did back then
The Constitution is a "living" document, well written in the 1700s
It should be interpreted in the light of its date in history, with full awareness of the intent and life experience of those who wrote it, realizing that those men gave the mechanism for future generations to make it more "perfect" through change
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
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That's not entirely true. Having every Uhmerikuhn own a gun helps prevent communist muslim terrorists from taking over the country and making us gay marry each other... secular weddings of course.
blurring can't use big words and has no idea what logic is...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
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Thanks QITNL.
:)
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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Degaine:
No need to apologize for singling me out -- this is supposed to be an evolving discussion...at least I think it is. However, you are wrong in stating that I have not been paying attention. I've read the entire thread through twice (and some parts 4 times). Everyone is entitled to his opinion; some are more well-articulated than others. I happen to believe that the gun debate obliterates a lot of other issues that are much more difficult to address. They require much more soul searching by the American public and some tough decisions about how we care for the mentally ill and the allocation of national resources.
Do I personally support responsible gun ownership? Yes. Simply because I don't wish to own a gun doesn't mean everyone else needs to share my opinion.
Would I feel safer a) if there were fewer guns, or, b) if there were more robust resources available for the care for and management of mental illness? I would honestly feel safer if violent, pathological personalities were subject to care management and adequate care facilities were made available.
If nothing else, this "debate" has given me quite a bit of food for thought. In every previous discussion about gun ownership in which I've ever participated, I've argued vociferously AGAINST rampant, unfettered gun ownership. It's certainly something for me to ponder...what is it about the tenor of this debate that has me questioning my beliefs?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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FWIW, the only parent I know who puts their kid on those kind of drugs and adamantly opposes spankings is a paranoid nut job who keeps no less than 5 guns in their house. Don't worry though, they go to church every week and vote Repugnikunt and insist that "this country will not survive 4 more years of Obama."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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blurring can't use big words and has no idea what logic is...
So If I use big words, inherently, I'm logical and "smart". So using simple logic is no longer valid. You f*#king asshats have even twisted logic into something not based on reality or fact, but something that your stupid models or that Media Matters has researchers claiming to be false.
I think this is how John Lott got shot down.
The bottom line is that PissChrist Wes says I'm irrelevant because I do not use big words? What does that you tell you about him?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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We can all agree on this!
Keep guns out of the hands of crazy people...
The recent crop of killers were NOT crazy 6 months before they went psychotic. Troubled perhaps. Different sometimes. But almost all highly functional and intelligent, young, healthy, with futures. No history of violence. Often from middle/upper class families.
All medicated on the latest fresh batch of whatever. Pharma companies have seven years to make their spoils before generics crowd in on their street corner. This results is a constant stream of "new" custom head f*#king meds. Your general practitioner will now easily whip out the pad if you're feeling a little blue.
Anyone can follow this trail.
So the problem becomes we now have several thousand potential zombie killers out there. Sure we're talking very, very small percentages of the millions of people hooked on this trash. 99% of those several thousand will "only" kill themselves. Maybe they'll just kill their own families or a couple close relatives too. Hardly any will butcher little kids.
So identifying "crazy people" becomes nigh impossible.
In fact, a free society eventually becomes impossible.
This rabbit hole goes very, very deep.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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Added as an edit on catching up with the thread...
Madbolter1: This is why all this talk about militia is wrong-headed. People miss the fact that the founders imagined ad hoc militias springing up to secure or re-secure a free state. And they imagined that such militia would be composed of everyday people that would be armed in advance for just such a purpose. Thus, ANY sort of weaponry that could be reasonably applicable in such a scope would be protected by the amendment.
On THIS interpretation, I can very consistently say that I favor the average Joe having assault weapons, while the average Joe has no use for nukes! Now, if you can come up with a plausible scenario in which the US government is threatening its own people with nukes, then I would say that the average Joe has a second-amendment-guaranteed right to a nuke.
In short, the second amendment, on the most plausible reading I know of, guarantees the average Joe (as part of "the people," that is NEVER ambiguous in the constitution) the right to have and BEAR whatever weaponry could be reasonably necessary for a ad hoc militia to rise up and secure or re-secure a free state.
I am well aware that this whole mode of thinking runs counter to what is now mainstream thinking, particularly in other nations (which we SO much want to emulate). But OUR founders FEARED government, and we should too! And OUR founders wanted to ensure that "the people" (which has ALWAYS meant you and I) had the resources to rise up and overthrow their government should that ever become necessary.
Talk about "that's not practically possible now" is meaningless. As I said above, the point of armed revolt is not to WIN (at least, probably not in round one). The point is to make a sufficiently strong statement that ultimate change does occur. History teaches us that people often don't win in round one. They win OVER TIME by ultimately paying SUCH a price that many others finally notice, and then finally take up the cause.
We are presently FAR from revolt-thinking in this country, and we have been for a very long time. But the founders knew what they were doing, and the second amendment was designed to, in effect, protect us from ourselves... to protect us from glibly VOTING certain rights away just because we didn't happen to value them anymore.
Have to say I strongly disagree with almost all of this.
Madbolter1: The big mistake that people (including some SC justices) make with this amendment is that the "rationale" the founders stuck in there is in the logically antecedent position. Thus, whether or not it is true (or still "valid" or still "applicable"), the "right not be infringed" part, is logically unaffected.
Madbolter1, in the second amendment the consequent is wholly dependent on the antecendent condition, it does not stand apart. And, if we're going to discuss intent, then the entire second amendment is today without merit and entirely out-of-sync with what the founders' had in mind.
We now have standing a standing army, standing militias, and standing police forces which, to a large extent, are exactly what the framers didn't want. The second amendment in today's world is the very definition of 'tits on a bull' and an anachronism. And the fact guns, any guns, in private hands now pose zero impediment to tyranny in the US simply rounds out just how irrelevant the second is in today's world.
But, home defense and hunting are still valid reasons for gun possession and should be accommodated, but in a far, far more regulated context than exists today.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
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So If I use big words, inherently...
Wow, you've been practicing.
I think this is how John Lott got shot down
No, he got "shot down" because he made up a fake persona to try and support his argument. That's dishonest, even you know that.
And to be clear, I never said you were irrelevant because you don't use big words, I said you can't use big words. You are irrelevant because you are a fuking moron.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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San Jose City College on lock-down as I speak. Gunman on the loose.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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And the fact guns in private hands pose zero impediment to tyranny in the US simply rounds out just how irrelevant the second is in today's world.
Zero impediment indeed, since the members of the NRA will be cheering on the military were they to decide on a coup.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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A chick went crazy while my friend was teaching a class at UCD. She chased him around the room with scissors, eventually throwing them at him. Then she picked up chairs, etc. Finally security showed up. Teaching is scarey enough without guns on campus.
Imagine if she had a gun. Imagine if other students in the class had guns... one of them probably would have shot her. Point is, the situation was infinitely better than it could have been because NO GUNS WERE INVOLVED.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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A chick went crazy while my friend was teaching a class at UCD.
sounds like an average day in Davis
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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Blue:
So If I use big words, inherently, I'm logical and "smart". So using simple logic is no longer valid. You f*#king asshats have even twisted logic into something not based on reality or fact, but something that your stupid models or that Media Matters has researchers claiming to be false.
Sir, 'asshat" is not a word, and *# are not letters in any fornicating word.
I'm just trying to see if there's any joy in a spelling flame but I'm not feelin' it
;-)
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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Yeah, my question about fluoridation up that way.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it...
... People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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just got back from the gun store,, did i miss anything besides the usual insult hurling??
Yep...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
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check out the statue of liberty shooting. shooter killed a coworker. Police showed up and when they saw he pulled a gun, started firing.
nine people shot.
All shot by the police, trained and practiced gunmen.
Imagine if it had been a bunch of amateurs with guns?
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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madbolter, blah, blah, blah
You confuse grammar with logic, and laws with morals.
While I believe that the founding fathers were intellectual and political giants, can anyone honestly think that they could ever conceive of the lethal firepower now available to a single human being?
The most devastating firearm known to mankind at that time required a team of horses to transport, several men to operate, fired perhaps one shot every twenty seconds, and couldn't have killed twenty six unrestrained people under any circumstances. No discussion of the intent of the constitution can ignore this fact. In 2000 posts here, the right to bear muzzle loading black powder weapons of any size has never been threatened.
TE
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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next thing you know, you'll be trying to read the bible in its historical context. then we'll really be lost....
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corysue
Boulder climber
reno,nevada
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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I am not Ron. I am a woman, a mother of twenty something middle class white males, who have been fortunate enough to have a present and accounted for father.
I have been in public school classes when the teacher asks the kids to come to the front of the room to get their meds. Almost all of these medicated students are male. I assure you, this child whether insane or retarded could have been trained not to have those thoughts just as he has been virtually programmed to have them. The military has developed its own video games to train combat ready soldiers for urban combat and drone missions. I could say more about the back tones that play on many of these games and their influence in the subconscious, but then you would surely consider me a hermaphrodite troll.
Ignore the facts of these events and ban guns; if that is what makes you feel safe, but be assured you are avoiding the root of the problem. If it is just guns then why didnt this scenario occur earlier in our history? Didnt we watch gunfights as kids on tv, weren't gunfighters and gangster stories popular before? Why are so many white middle class males wearing black commiting mass murder/suicide? Are they the only people with access to guns?Or are they the ones who have the time and funds to immerse themselves in the most realistic computer games for days, without ever living with the real outcome of gun violence like fellow poorer adolescents in inner cities or adolescents living in more rural areas without reliable internet, whose experience with guns result in dealing with entrails and the very messy business of killing.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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The founders' SCOPE was those arms "the people" could ever in principle need in order to FORM any ad hoc "militia" with the intent of securing (or re-securing) a FREE STATE. And, within that scope of necessity, the government must not INFRINGE in ANY WAY the right to both have and to bear any arms qualifying for that scope of applicability.
This is why all this talk about militia is wrong-headed. People miss the fact that the founders imagined ad hoc militias springing up to secure or re-secure a free state. And they imagined that such militia would be composed of everyday people that would be armed in advance for just such a purpose. Thus, ANY sort of weaponry that could be reasonably applicable in such a scope would be protected by the amendment.
that's what i used to think. but it is almost certainly incorrect.
one of the curious things about the second amendment and "gun rights," is how very little historiography there is on the subject. the first genuinely good scholarly work, by joyce malcolm, didn't appear until the 1990s. joyce argued that the language associated with "right to bear arms" reflected an american revision of certain strains of british common law tradition and appeared to support, at least in part, a more subdued version of a broad reading of the 2nd.
http://www.amazon.com/Keep-Bear-Arms-Origins-Anglo-American/dp/0674893077/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355886627&sr=1-1&keywords=joyce+malcolm
but then saul cornell started doing his research. as it turns out, we have pretty good evidence about the views of "founders" or other late colonials and leaders in the early republic, because it seems like a flock of states and localities began imposing gun control ordinances of all kinds almost as soon as there was a united states. and no one made much of a fuss-- these were state level battles, and no court seems to have found any specifically individual right to arms possession of the sort we now think was common. and these cases were happening while the so-called founders were alive and often in leading political positions. none of these cases ever made it to the supreme court. none was overturned at a federal level. and none of them seems to have been viewed as unusual or provocative or in any way counter to the spirit let alone the letter of the 2nd amendment. certainly none of them inspired any of the early congresses to believe that rights were in danger and in need of more legislative protection or clarification.
http://www.amazon.com/Whose-Second-Amendment-Protect-Historians/dp/0312240600/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355886883&sr=1-7&keywords=saul+cornell
http://www.amazon.com/Well-Regulated-Militia-Founding-Fathers-Origins/dp/0195341031/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355886912&sr=1-3
i was initially skeptical of saul's claims, but he gave a presentation when his research was in progress, and we roughed him up pretty good, but the general claim seems tough to challenge. it's just that no one had bothered to do the research before. and his work suggests why-- the early state cases seem to have pretty well-settled the issue. there doesn't appear to be any serious, scholarly attempt to claim an individual right under cover of the 2nd until the 1960s. which also explains why there was so little historical research on the topic-- there wasn't much need.
joyce has responded by partly abandoning her earlier ground. the new book goes back into early modern british history to work the pre-history of the american conception of weapons. another smart, well-researched book. but it also opens up the ironic possibility that the best defense of an nra-style individual rights interpretation of the 2nd would avoid original intent appeals.
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Violence-Joyce-Lee-Malcolm/dp/0674016084/ref=la_B001H6N6NO_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355887088&sr=1-2
this is still an evolving historiographic debate, obviously. but these four books are the best of the book-length studies on the topic. most of the stuff you'll pull up on amazon or that gets pimped in the popular media is pretty shoddy.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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I assure you, this child whether insane or retarded could have been trained not to have those thoughts just as he has virtually programmed to have them.
Glad you aren't Ron.
The above is quite a statement. So you think people with mental health problems can be trained to not think bad thoughts. Out of curiosity, what do you base this one? And how would you train them?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
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And to be clear, I never said you were irrelevant because you don't use big words, I said you can't use big words. You are irrelevant because you are a fuking moron.
So why keep leg-humping? Why even engage a moron? Daddy didn't give you the required attention? You feel you have to cap on people you feel superior to?
Does that make you feel better or some sh#t? You are clearly a person with issues. You never express sorrow or compassion, just hate and vitriol coupled with your perceived arrogance of "knowledge".
You are the troubled man, bro. It is you.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
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it has been developed into an excellent method of helping torture victims suppress
Not certain what you are talking about, but trauma is way different from many forms of mental illness. EMDR has proven to be very effective for treating trauma. I have a friend who teaches it and counsels rape victims. She says she has a lot of success with it. But once again, trauma is different.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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A chick went crazy while my friend was teaching a class at UCD. She chased him around the room with scissors, eventually throwing them at him. Then she picked up chairs, etc. Finally security showed up. Teaching is scarey enough without guns on campus.
Imagine if she had a gun. Imagine if other students in the class had guns... one of them probably would have shot her. Point is, the situation was infinitely better than it could have been because NO GUNS WERE INVOLVED.
What if the crazy bitch had a gun?? Bet you'd hope for another in the class to drop her ass!
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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You feel you have to cap on people you feel superior to?
Pure irony there Blue, considering how you have spoken to many of us here on the forum.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
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The pot calling the kettle black
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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The pot calling the kettle black
Racist!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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Take a schizophrenic off his/her meds and you damned well might have just helped create another mass murder...
Back on the glue, locker. We don't need to take any chances of you going postal at the Circle K with one of those price-label guns.
;)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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I assure you, this child whether insane or retarded could have been trained not to have those thoughts just as he has been virtually programmed to have them.
you should work for the F-B-I. knowing what you know without an actual diagnosis. you put medical doctors to shame.
edit;
a mother of twenty something middle class white males
you have been busy as well....20 males are a great number to give birth too.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
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bah Bluey,, schools are gun free zones dontcha know,, just like banks and state offices. No one would have a gun there.
nope
public civil buildings yes
but not banks, open carry in banks has long been demanded by the public from back in the days of large cash deposits and withdrawals daily
I opened carried into Wells Fargo today, as I have for 20 years with them
However, if properly and clearly disclosed, some banks have the legal right to deny entrance to open carry, but they have legal problems with CCL holders
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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...but be assured you are avoiding the root of the problem
Like a plant, this problem has many roots. They're all being discussed here.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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Ignore the facts of these events and ban guns; if that is what makes you feel safe [...]
I actually don't much care about the root of the problem. We'll never fix evil, or crazy.
We can change outcomes.
Very true Dave, you can't fix those born evil or crazy. I'd wager none of the recent three in memory were either of those things one year before they snapped. Seriously. Research James Holmes, Jacob Roberts, Adam Lanza.
You can easily chemically create crazy however. Would you argue that? How many mass random killings/suicides happened 40 years ago?
You can change outcomes. True. Imagine a magical world without guns! Poof! Instead of shooting up an elementary school these formerly normal intelligent people can hack/burn even smaller kids to death in a daycare or other even softer target. Sword, axe, crossbow, etc. Maybe 20 die and 20 others are disfigured/maimed instead.
Not a solution. And you really do care about the root of the problem Dave. We all do.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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Thanks for the link crimp, a lot better than what is being discussed here.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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yeah crimpie
I have been reading through his blog, thanks
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
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Crimpie: Thoughtful post by a fellow criminologist Chris Uggen.
That's been my point - don't focus on individual incidents and instead try to reduce the overall level of gun violence. Most of the shootings here in PDX are handguns as I suspect they are in most urban areas.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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So what would you do Healy? I can see decreasing access to assault rifles as part of a program to reduce mass killings, but I can't imagine America reducing handguns. Are you for limiting handguns, and if so, to what level? If someone owns one or 50, they still have the potential.
Just trying to understand your position.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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A big part of the problem is simply the proliferation of guns. I'd try to reduce the overall gun load from 310 million poorly regulated guns to 100 million 'well regulated' guns - see my post in the other thread.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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Re: Handgun vs longguns....
In 2011, according to the FBI SHR, 57.5% of all murders victims were killed by a firearm. Of the total of all murders in 2011,
*49.1% were committed using a handgun;
*2.6% with a rifle;
*2.8% with a shotgun;
*0.8% with some "other" gun; and
*12.5% with a undisclosed type of firearm (police likely did not fill in that field).
Over time, the % of murder victims killed with a firearm has been stable. Still, more murder victims die as a result of a firearm than other other means.
2007: 67.9% of all murder committed with a firearm
2008: 67.0% "
2009: 66.9% "
2010: 67.4% "
2011: 67.8% "
Someone upthread was feigning concern about asphyxiation. In 2007 to 2010, the % of murder victims due to that was 0.7%; 0.6%; 0.6%; 0.7% and 0.7%. It's not a very effective means to kill someone - that's why most use firearms. Far better tool for the job.
Knives/cutting implements are our second favorite weapon of choice (again, they are pretty effective; but nothing is as efficient as a firearm).
2007: 12.2% murder committed with a knife/cutting implement
2008: 13.3% "
2009: 13.4% "
2010: 13.2% "
2011: 13.4% "
What of personal weapons? That is, hands, feet or fists:
2007: 5.8% murder committed with a body part
2008: 6.2% "
2009: 5.9% "
2010: 5.8% "
2011: 5.7%
If anyone is interested, I'll happily share (email; not typing it all in!) the spreadsheet I created on weapons and murder in 2011. Or go here to the FBI cite for the counts: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8
Enjoy.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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Rifles are just so damned inconvenient for drive-bys which is what a lot of the shootings in PDX are.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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Twice as many people bludgeoned to death with hands/feet/fists than killed with rifles???
Very interesting, albeit disturbing, chart...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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I fixed a few typos up there. Sorry about that.
Those (with body parts like hands) are likely a lot of intimate partner homicides. While these (primarily) males prefer to kill their intimates with firearms, they are also pretty handy with their hands. :/
edit: I have no agenda Ron. The numbers are what they are. The bottom line is many people are murdered in the country every year, though it's better than it was in the early 90s for sure.
As Uggen notes, the mass murders get a lot of attention which is not surprising. And they often use long guns (rifles, shotguns, etc.) Keep in mind that there is a decent percentage that are unknown. No telling if these 'don't knows' are distributed evenly across the categories or if they are mostly handguns or knives or something.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
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He would be reflected as an aggravated assault in the FBI data. If he would have died, that would be categorized under 'knife/cutting implement.'
I could make a joke, but not very clever tonight. You know she worked at a hair salon after that incident! I wouldn't sit in that woman's chair. :/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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I fixed a few typos up there. Sorry about that.
Those are likely intimate partner homicides. While these (primarily) males prefer to kill their intimates with firearms, they are also pretty handy with their hands. :/
I guess, we have a killing problem. People can be very, very bad.
How do we fix this?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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In some porn movies I heard too. They sounded like a couple of winners...not.
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John M
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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banning assault rifles has more to do with mass killings. In my opinion, but I don't really know the numbers. What percentage of mass killings are done with a semi auto rifle? anyone know.
As for reducing numbers of guns to 100 million. I don't believe that number would be low enough to truly effect the numbers of murders. Every household would still be able to have a gun.
Disclaimer.. I am not necessarily for limiting anything. I just want to understand the arguments.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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I've heard the expression, "I'm gonna rip your arm off and beat you to death with it" but didn't realize that so many people actually did that!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
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Asked upthread: How to fix it? Well, as long as there are humans, there will be violence and murder. But as a nation, we have to be able to better than we do don't you think? It is actually a fair bit harder to kill someone without the use of a firearm. If we could magically make all guns disappear (and assuming people wanted that) there is no doubt the murder rate would decline.
That is clear. Will it go to zero? Unlikely. But it has to be better.
Now, I'm not saying I'm a proponent of making guns magically disappear, ( seriously, is that even possible?) but making them less available can't hurt. And making owners be more responsible (how? who knows?) can't hurt either. I am around A LOT of guns. I know no one - not one person - that puts their firearms in a safe at home. They are all strewn around homes, left in automobiles, etc. That is careless and inexcusable.
One thing not mentioned (apologize if I missed it) in the thread so far is alcohol. Alcohol is involved in LOTS of violence. In fact, my first comment regarding a crime scene (whether murder or not) is usually "let me guess...was alcohol involved?"
Drunk people do dumb things including killing others and picking fights or putting themselves in places where they get killed. Stopping alcohol abuse would be very helpful imo.
Just some thoughts. The specifics of each of these ideas (making guns less available, responsible gun ownership and alcohol) are easy to rattle off. The specifics on making it happen is far more complex.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 18, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
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As for reducing numbers of guns to 100 million. I don't believe that number would be low enough to truly effect the numbers of murders. Every household would still be able to have a gun.
My operative hypothesis is that dropping the overall gun load by two thirds and heavily regulating what remains is probably our best chance at affecting the today's ridiculous level of accessibility.
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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The thing that I don't understand is why America has so many gun deaths when other first world countries with plenty of guns don't. I can understand third world countries, but not first world.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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Ron:
Regarding gangs... I know you say a lot happens where you are, but they were a negligible contributor to overall murder in the US in 2011. Been that way for a while. There were many more in the early 1990s which is already 20 years ago!
In 2011, 4.1% of all murder was committed as a result of juvenile gang violence. There is also a category in FBI data called 'gangland killings' which accounts for 1.2% more. So at best, in the US, 5.3% of murders are a result of gang-violence.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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Thanks, Kerwin - helpuful info on the history and historiogrraphy of the second amendment.
Speaking of which:
Norton: The Constitution is a "living" document, well written in the 1700s. It should be interpreted in the light of its date in history, with full awareness of the intent and life experience of those who wrote it, realizing that those men gave the mechanism for future generations to make it more "perfect" through change.
It always has been interpreted in light of circumstances at the time, hasn't it? Sociology, economy, history, prejudices of the judges, etc? Why the sudden argument now to interpret the constitution just as it would supposedly have been in 1789, had the writers considered whatever the question is? Bearing in mind that the argument is almost always used by the right wing and far right wing, as another part of their alleged fight to "restore" America.
As for the efficacy of handguns, and the keystone cops shootings in the Empire State building, I'm reminded of the scene in Pulp Fiction where the punk empties his handgun at Travolta and Jackson, at point blank range, and doesn't hit either.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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Those numbers do exist Riley. I can run them tomorrow if wanted. Going to bed now...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:09am PT
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Okay, just got back from work. Catching up....
The Constitution is a "living" document, well written in the 1700s
It should be interpreted in the light of its date in history, with full awareness of the intent and life experience of those who wrote it, realizing that those men gave the mechanism for future generations to make it more "perfect" through change
Just "hand waving." It completely misses the point, which is that any attempt at "more perfection" must still comply with the principles upon which this nation was founded. I'm talking principles, and you keep talking tactics.
The tactics that many on this thread wish to employ violate the founding principles, and that approach won't make anything "more perfect."
If such tactics are attempted by a minority, then nothing comes of it. But if such tactics are attempted by a majority, they CAN use their majority power to violate rights and founding principles. Then they become "majority faction," which is the greatest possible evil in a republican form of government.
And when majority faction violates enough principles, it WILL ultimately find the minority rise up in revolt. And the founders had the second amendment as one significant backstop against majority faction. So, it's ironic that this is the amendment now under such fire (particularly now that our government HAS become officially a tyranny).
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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I hate statistics. For one thing, size of countries, population, how many major cities, etc. Without that, the numbers don't mean much.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:17am PT
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Madbolter1, in the second amendment the consequent is wholly dependent on the antecendent condition, it does not stand apart. And, if we're going to discuss intent, then the entire second amendment is today without merit and entirely out-of-sync with what the founders' had in mind.
Including your comment about simply not agreeing, coupled with this one, I can only respond that you've not explained why you don't agree. You're making STATEMENTS (the first in this quote being incorrect), but not REASONS why I should believe your statements.
In the case of your claim that the consequent is wholly dependent on the antecedent, I've explained why that's not the case. It's a matter of logic. If you "don't agree," then I'd like to understand why not. I know you are not just fundamentally illogical/irrational, so either you are putting more weight on the "unsupported" notion than it will bear (logically speaking), or you are conflating necessary and sufficient conditions (a very common mistake, and nothing to be embarrassed about, seriously).
At any rate, I'd like to understand WHY you don't agree.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:21am PT
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You confuse grammar with logic, and laws with morals.
While I believe that the founding fathers were intellectual and political giants, can anyone honestly think that they could ever conceive of the lethal firepower now available to a single human being?
The most devastating firearm known to mankind at that time required a team of horses to transport, several men to operate, fired perhaps one shot every twenty seconds, and couldn't have killed twenty six unrestrained people under any circumstances. No discussion of the intent of the constitution can ignore this fact. In 2000 posts here, the right to bear muzzle loading black powder weapons of any size has never been threatened.
I've carefully explained exactly why I don't believe that the second amendment puts us on some slippery slope toward individuals having nukes. You can ratchet that back quite a ways before you get to disarmament! Exactly where you draw the line is what's at issue here, and I believe that I've clearly indicated my willingness to be compromising.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:27am PT
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that's what i used to think. but it is almost certainly incorrect.
Wow! FINALLY a truly serious posting, supported with scholarly research and books I haven't read yet. This is really good stuff, klk, and I will definitely be reading some more. If what you say is true, then I will be changing my perspective.
Good, good stuff! Thank you!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:55am PT
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Before the Gulf War the Army was having Mash unit docs work at Cook County ER so they'd get experience gun wounds.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:18am PT
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Madbolter1: In the case of your claim that the consequent is wholly dependent on the antecedent, I've explained why that's not the case. It's a matter of logic.
I'm a software engineer and know enough formal logic to truth tables, but what I have a problem with is your assertion the consequent is somehow independent of, or "logically unaffected" by, the [conditional] antecedent. If it weren't conditional, those thoughtful framers wouldn't have included it. Remove or invalidate the antecedent and the consequent no longer stands. Or are you saying the conditional antecedent was merely the framers engaging in the superfluous?
And again, the entirety of the 'defense of freedom' tract simply doesn't hold water in the context of the framer's intent against today's lifestyles, infrastructure, and standing internal and external security apparatuses.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:52am PT
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Remove or invalidate the antecedent and the consequent no longer stands.
And again, the entirety of the 'defense of freedom' tract simply doesn't hold water in the context of the framer's intent against today's lifestyles, infrastructure, and standing internal and external security apparatuses.
"No longer holds" doesn't mean "false," as many on this thread are asserting. I've tried to clarify that "unsupported" means simply "no reason to believe it," which is NOT the same thing as "reason to think it false." From your latest post, I do believe you see the distinction, which is all I was concerned about.
But, as I said upthread, we legitimately believe all sorts of things that are "unsupported" by some antecedent. My point is that the many assertions on this thread that because the "militia" idea is invalid (false), the idea of a right to bear arms is also invalid (false)... this logical move is unsustainable. If all that is meant is that the right is now unsupported, that's a considerably weaker claim, and one that I would say is supported in many other ways besides just the "militia" antecedent.
Regarding the whole "security infrastructure" idea, I've said that "winning" (especially in the first round) is not the presumptive point of revolt. Making "enough noise" is. You can't make "enough noise" for a genuine revolt with empty hands. You DO have to kill some people; that's what distinguishes a genuine revolt from a mere "demonstration." And, you have to do it in organized, "well regulated" fashion.
I entirely agree with you that it's probably an exercise in futility. But when things reach a certain point, you WILL have many rise up and like Henry say, "Give me liberty or give me death." And they will die fighting, even knowing it's futile.
Such people will be viewed by the VAST majority as losers, idiots, asshats, asswipes, reckless idealists, stupid, etc., etc. And MOST will just be glad that they're gone. But the founders were such idealists, and they did put it all on the line with a pretty slim hope of success. Lines like "we hang together or hang separately" were not just wry humor.
The world HAS changed, and we are a long, long way from individuals believing in their principles to THAT extent. The world is a sadder place because of that fact.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:58am PT
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You may as well be looking at the world through a straw while standing on a straw man.
Well, I disagree that my view is "narrow," but I will agree that I am something of an idealist. Maybe someday, if push comes to shove, I'll hope to have the courage of my convictions. Meanwhile, I'm not willing to give up my principles merely because they are "impractical."
But in a sense, this aspect of the discussion is moot. Bottom line is that, as I've repeatedly said, I'm not opposed to the sorts of bans or responsible-ownership legislation many on this thread seem to want. So, I'm not really debating with most people here about tactics.
It seems that some are determined to change my principles, however. And that's much harder to do. Perhaps the links klk offered will have that effect, which I'm very open to. But I haven't heard on THIS thread any reason to change my basic perspectives.
But to sum up, I have no problem with the proposed tactics many are suggesting here. I don't believe they will have the desired effect, because I believe that the reasons behind these mass-killings (well, actually, ALL the gun violence in this country) are far, far, FAR more complicated than these sorts of tactics are even going to TOUCH. But I have no problem with "starting somewhere" and giving it a try.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:10am PT
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Madbolter1: I entirely agree with you that it's probably an exercise in futility. But when things reach a certain point, you WILL have many rise up and like Henry say, "Give me liberty or give me death." And they will die fighting, even knowing it's futile.
Personally I sincerely doubt it. Our lack of societal will has been on full display during three conflicts in the Mideast and I believe that is simply a projection of the will of the vast majority of individuals in our nation. So I don't believe you'll have "MANY", but rather quite few and even "futile" would be an incredible reach.
Also, I would love to see more info supporting the leap from FP10 to the second and particularly to an individual right. For me the leap from FP10's factions and 'militia' to an individual right is just several leaps too far and again I don't see the framers as given to the superfluous.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:13am PT
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i hope y'all notice that i did NOT post on this thread until all hell broke loose here, and i was frankly rather surprised to find that tom had said what he did. he is usually quite reserved when he addresses the far-out OT, and i can only surmise that it's out of concern for what seems to be going on that he played the "dark ops" card the way he did.
i'm actually trying to stay away from the subjects of ET, 9/11, chemtrails and the like on supertopo. although there seems to be an increased savvy here about such subjects, discussion quickly bogs down to an impossible, juvenile internet slugfest. i've gotten myself typecast with all that, so unless there's something specific i feel i have to contribute, or, as in this case, people start picking on a good friend, i take my discussion of these matters elsewhere.
as it stands, i would now like to contribute something to this thread. to understand the suspicions many of us have when these atrocities happen, it's best to forget the internet rumor mills for awhile and take a look at history. the classic example of a "patsy" setup was performed by the nazis as they consolidated dictatorial power in germany prior to world war 2. in the reichstag fire, a mentally unstable anarchist was led to do the deed and proudly take the rap for it. he went proudly to his execution thinking he was a hero for his imagined cause. the nazis, in their cynical shrewdness, had done extensive profiling, singled him out, and "trained" him for the event.
so, do you think this is something invented by those evil nazis? think again, and look at the gunpowder plot and popish plot of english history.
not going to happen in the good ol' u.s.a.? take a close look at the political assassinations of the 1960s. i understand the jfk assassination is still a bit controversial, even though most public opinion surveys find that a majority of americans now believes that lee harvey oswald did not do it. be that as it may, i think the king assassination ought to be a no-brainer. take a close look at the civil lawsuit won against non-james earl ray perpetrators, awarding coretta scott king $100 to defray her husband's funeral expenses.
we now seem to be getting a string of public shootings in our country, attributed to mentally unstable copycats with way too much armament. this doesn't seem to be inspiring a push for increased mental health services, or some sort of increased attention through gun regulation we already have. no, there's just a drumbeat for even more gun control.
i have to say that i'm just not paying real close attention. i've had a number of links sent to me on possible dark ops aspects of this incident, and i haven't taken the time--and frankly, i don't have the appetite for it--to try to vet them out and make a halfway reasonable posting here. i've forwarded these links to tom, who seems to have such an interest, and i'll let him work through them and brave further supertopo storms if he's so inclined.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:23am PT
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Anastasia - reporting "Rates" takes into account differences in population sizes. Reporting "Counts" does not. A rate is a number of something PER so many people in the population.
e.g., 10 per 1000 means there are ten cases per 1000 people in the population.
Population size is accounted for with rates, that is why we use them. Also, statistics can and do look at MANY differences in countries (or other geographic regions) to understand violence. For example, urban areas, age distributions, marital status, economy, etc. They don't just count and are done with it.
Riley - as per non-fatal injury, here are the 2011 estimates for this US:
Estimated # of nonfatal injury due to firearm (not counting BB or pellet guns: 73,883
Based on this population: 311,591,917
Crude rate per 100,000 people in US: 23.71
Age-adjusted rate per 100,000 people in US: 23.64
This also comes from CDC online calculator: http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html.
Riley: Nothing fishy about these numbers but they are likely underestimates. If someone is injured due to a firearm and seeks no medical attention, it won't be reflected here. If someone does seek medical attention, and the facility doesn't report it, or reports it incorrectly, it won't be reflected.
Also, upthread I offered murder numbers. Here I've offered the non-fatal injury estimates. What you haven't seen yet are the number of folks in the US who are killed by firearms annually due to suicide, and justifiable homicides. Those numbers exist too (though suicide can be pretty hard to id sometimes. Still, they'll end up in accident of suicide counts).
Going back to the murder numbers - they likely are not perfect either, but given that murder generally produces a body, or people report a missing person that may later be presumed dead, it is a very well measured crime
No data are perfect, but people strive to offer the best estimates they can.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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Damn. Just wrote long post and blew it away accidentally.
Suicide from firearms in 2010 according to death certificates in the USA:
Count: 19,392
Population: 308,745,538
Rate per 100,000: 6.28
Age-adjusted rate: 6.06
This represents a bit more than half (50.5%) of ALL suicides in the nation (there were 38,364 in 2010).
Also note there are more firearm-related suicides than murder annually. Pretty grim. This is why people talk about guns being in the house are more likely to be used to kill oneself versus someone else.
Gun-related deaths include suicide, murder, justifiable homicide and accidental deaths. Murder is the unlawful and intentional taking of one's life.
Suicide may be recorded as homicide or accident - sometimes these are not easy to discern. Even if they are under counted in the suicide column, they do end up in the gun-related death column.
Also, it's fair to say that crime estimates tend to be underestimates. It is not so easy to count this stuff. But we know things like murder are pretty darn well counted. Other things (e.g., intimate violence, bullying, stalking) are not very easy to count and excellent estimates are a challenge.
And keep in mind that death and injury information in the US comes from two primary places (DOJ and CDC) but from a variety of sources.
1. DOJ FBI: this is where good murder and justifiable homicide numbers are. They are compiled from people reporting this stuff to police and police voluntarily (though many states mandate they do) report this to the FBI.
2. DOJ Bureau of Justice Statistics (where I am affiliated) (BJS): non-fatal violence (and property) information comes from here. This is based on an enormous sample of people in the US that is on-going throughout the year and has been going on since the early 1970s.
3. CDC: the suicide numbers and some other numbers I posted above are fro here. The suicide/death #s come directly from death certificates. The injury #s (could also get from BJS data above) come directly from medical care places submitting information. CDC numbers do not come from police taking reports and submitting them up the food chain.
edit: Re: padding stats. Only people in hospitals could pad stats that come from there. Think that is likely? Or guys filling out death certificates would have to pad those - unlikely.
As far as police, there are documented cases of misreporting numbers. However, I am unaware of anyplace over reporting on purpose. When crime goes up in a community, police chiefs get fired. Real estate prices suffer. Nobody likes to stand up and say 'crime is out of control here'. Not good. What can and does happen is in the wake of a tragedy like Connecticut, the police can get better funding. They, like most places are under-funded and under-staffed.
While most police agencies report as accurately as they can, sometimes some futz numbers on purpose. And this is generally in the form or under-reporting. The numbers that seem to be primarily underreported are rape. Here is one example with Dallas: http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/als-morning-meeting/99907/dallas-morning-news-finds-police-department-misreporting-violent-crimes/
What some people who do this intentionally (lower numbers to report) do not realize is that there are people like me or my friend Rick Rosenfeld who KNOW these numbers by city by type of crime. They know when an unlikely change in crime occurs. They dig and things get revealed.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:33am PT
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Also note there are more firearm-related suicides than murder annually. Pretty grim. This is why people talk about guns being in the house are more likely to be used to kill oneself versus someone else.
Of all people, Callie should know of the Seattle study and its grossly flawed methodology.
Makes Lott's stunt look like an oopsie.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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Is it the one in Journal of Trauma you are talking about Ron? Kellerman et al? 1998? Or another? Or his first - 1986?
Curious as to what you dislike about the methodology? (I want to pull it and review the methodology).
I am engaging in spectacular work-avoidance with all of this. :)
Oh, and Riley, in case you are wondering, these numbers do not include the number/rate of firearms being brandished when no one gets injured or killed. Think you know that though.
edit:
As far as measuring defensive gun use - that is a measurement nightmare!
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stilltrying
Trad climber
washington indiana
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:48am PT
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27 people a day (many of them children) are killed by drunk drivers EVERY DAY. Seems we should be worrying more about giving people a drivers license and a car instead of guns - 27 every day and not a mention on the national news for the most part. Virtually all these mass murderers are on some kind of perscription drugs - we have always had guns but the drugs are new to the equation and from what I have read they are proven to cause this crazy behavior. Also how many suicides, murder/suicides are a result of this. I see a lot of mention about statistics, tracking etc. and some of it is over my head. However according to what I think is correct we don't hear of the drugs because of HIPPA laws etc. Seems we are led around by the nose by eggheads and talking heads. It is simple to me, the world is a jungle and therefore I have to be aware that some of the creatures in the jungle are lunatics and I better be aware that laws, logic, reasoning are worthless when the sh#t hits the fan but a weapon might save me and my loved ones. Watched a video of a young woman who was in the Texas restaraunt when that luntic drove through the window and randomly started shooting people. At one point she reached in her purse to get her gun but then remembered she started leaveing it in her car because Texas law made it a felony to carry a concealed weapon in. She escaped but her Mother and Father were both killed. She point blank told the congressmen and women that one reason we need to carry a weapon was to protect ourselves from them. I have never owned a gun in my life but I think I will get one and the necessary training just because if the goverment tells me what I should be doing it is 99% certain they are wrong. Hell they give weapons to Mexican drug cartels, supply money for abortions (murder in the eyes of lots of folks), take funds away from metal institutions and the needed services, the list goes on. Who in their right mind thinks that goverment ever gets anything right. It is always the citizens who when fed up get the job done. So, what's a good hand gun to get ?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:52am PT
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Nice work crimper...
Is there any way to find the annual rate/raw # of suicides(don't care on the method) over say the past 50 years? I've only been able to find data going back 20 years...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:05am PT
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Not sure of the year, Callie, but it is old.
The "researcher" went looking for a city with the most skewed stats in order to "prove" his point.
A Boeing plant had shut down followed by a rash of suicide with co-incidentally low number of break ins.
Bingo, the exception used to prove an assumption.
The trouble lies with the fact that when people repeat something often enough they believe it is true.
Personally, every time I hear somebody say, "Well, everybody knows,..." alarm bells go off.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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So Ron, what you are say is... you watch news every night, probably Faux News, and the information presented there doesn't seem to reflect the FBI stats. From another thread you say shooting deaths are sooo prevalent they don't even report them anymore (yet you still seem to know they occur on a nightly basis) but they still report enough that the FBI stats must be questionable?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
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Ron watches the news, but then he tells us about the yahoo's next door to him that required him to get out his gun.
I feel much safer in the bay area, then living next to biker trash.
It's like everyone thought SF was burning down in the 89 quake because TV was focused a few houses.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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Whatever, you had to get out your gun
I don't need a gun, don't know anyone with a gun, never even had to call the cops, and I don't live in an upscale area. Your perceptions are heavily skewed by your biases.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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You feel you have to cap on people you feel superior to?
No, I feel I have to "cap on" people who are idiots and insist on typing idiotic things with the kind of confidence only idiots can possess.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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Not fortunate, Ron, just connected to reality.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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that doesnt strike me as an exception - that strikes me as proving the point - under extreme short term stress - loss of job - guns kill via suicide. Blaming guns for suicides seems odd when US suicide rate is significantly lower than in the gun-free paradise of Japan (and lots of other places--US does not have a high suicide rate compared to world at large).
The fact that US has a suicide rate almost identical to Canada suggests that prevalence of guns has little to do with suicide rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
It does make sense that when guns are available, they'll be used by people who want to commit suicide instead of other means. No one disputes that guns provide very effective means to kill people.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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The Japanese are not pussies, they do it with honor. They have been doing seppuku for centuries. Uhmerikuhns are way too pussy for that, they need a fast death to end their fast food quickimart life.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Ron, we live different lives. How can you possibly compare? You don't know my life story and I don't blab about my life on internet forums like you.
What an idiot.
Yeah, I've never killed someone. Does that make you a patriot and me not?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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Another example:
How could Ron NOT honestly fear south of the US border "illegals"?
He lives in a sh#t hole part of the country overridden with illegals in gangs.
He has to be armed when he goes outside, I would be too if I lived where he does.
His perceptions are based on his life experiences of living close to this crap, and so no one should be surprised by his obvious biases. You would be too.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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wow, this thread has it all...i knew tom cochrane had some issues but seriously? stick to climbing stories tom, those are great and i admire all that you have done in that sport. but your altered reality is just that.
and riley, good job on the westboro haters. thats the best thing in this thread.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
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If it were illegal russians and gangs here, i would be focused on them..
I honestly believe you when you say that
I am sorry you live in such a shithole part of America
I wish you could find the means to get out of there and move someplace decent.
Surely you could continue your business just about anywhere.....I guess, why not?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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Ronny, why no contempt for the legal honkies who pull the same sh#t? And don't pretend they don't, because you know damn well they do.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 19, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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I could go on...
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
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Take my NEIGHBORS for example. I nail em as they come. Color be dammed.
So Ron are you an equal opportunity "Nailer"?
More importantly
i'm concerned about how this shooting will affect stigmas against people who struggle with mental illness, and how those stigmas will affect people who would benefit from seeking treatment for mental health issues. when treatment is effective, people can recover totally, or manage very well.
Yeah! Thank you tr it needed to be said.
Those who rabidly argue "don't blame the GUN" have no problem blaming "sex and drugs and rock and roll".
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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I don't get why people are saying guns are the cause of suicide.
If people are going to kill themselves, they're gonna do it the least painful, quickest way. Gun's are the tool for that.
If you break a light bulb and need to remove it from the socket, you use a potato. If you don't have one, you use your hand.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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^^^ Or turn off the switch and/or breaker first like any sentient being would.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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P Ron - I'll look at this later. Pummeled today with five book chapters due to publisher and some numbers due to DOJ. Stressed!!!
I do have a question about FBI stats Crimpie.
I get the bay area news, and nightly there are deaths and shootings there- and most seem to be in gangland. How do they attribute shootings to gangs exactly? The figures don't seem realistic in the least to me.
Ron - nice question which brings up a few thoughts. First, the police would need to record a killing as gang violence. To the extent they get that right, the numbers will be correct. I have published research on gang violence and the most difficult part of that type of research is defining what a gang or gangster is. Is gang violence violence that happens when acting as a gang? Or does it include when an active gang member engages in intimate violence which is not gang-related. Some gang members "look" like gang members. Others do not. Measurement isn't perfect and it is very difficult. So they may be under-counted. Or in some ways over-counted. Not easy to measure this stuff.
And watching tv...there is a large body of literature that demonstrates that watching the news - especially local news - will increase significantly a persons fear of crime. Fear of crime/victimization generally has very little to do with risk of victimization. Plus, the media - news included - has the purpose of delivering viewers to advertisers. And they do this effectively don't they! What you see on the news about violence relates to what we call the "backwards law". That is, the more you see it on they news, the less common that event likely is. You see murders? They are the least common form of violence out there! You see stranger murders of females? RARE (most females are killed by someone they know; males are 50/50 in terms of the offender being stranger or known). You see terrorist attack? Rare. You don't see the everyday common things. That would not be effective at delivering viewers to advertisers as the public is bored by that. Another young black male shot and killed? No one notices.
Back to work for me.
Oh, one last thing... the comments about individuals who works with these data, and data like them, are disheartening. The researcher who does something with ill intent is very rare (in fact, note how someone like Lott who did some stupid unethical maneuvers was mentioned here - rare - backwards law, no?). The vast, vast majority of folks who work in the field actually care about doing as good a job as humanly possible. Keep that in mind.
Now, back to being super f*#king stressed.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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I purchased a gun for a S African freind of mine who had recieved a degree in AG here (1979) but was scared to death he wouldnt make it from the airport to his village as educated blacks then were targets in Afrcia.
And you wonder who is circumventing firearms laws, committing crimes by making "straw purchases"?
You have to wonder what "fast and furious" illegal use this gun was put to, and who it killed, purchased by a federal police officer for the purpose of giving to someone not eligible to purchase one.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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Don't get stressed Crimps reload.
Oh wait I meant reFresh.
KenM good one. Regarding Rong me thinks he doth protest too much.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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1. The historical trajectory of violence affects not only how life is lived but how it is understood.
2. What could be more fundamental to our sense of meaning and purpose than a conception of whether the strivings of the human race over long stretches of time have left us better or worse off?
3. How, in particular, are we to make sense of modernity—of the erosion of family, tribe, tradition, and religion by the forces of individualism, cosmopolitanism, reason, and science?
4. So much depends on how we understand the legacy of this transition: whether we see our world as a nightmare of crime, terrorism, genocide, and war, or as a period that, by the standards of history, is blessed by unprecedented levels of peaceful coexistence."
Source: Steven Pinker, The Better Angels of Our Nature; highly recommended
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Riley, it is like using a report of an accident out of AINAM where there are 2 climbers and one fatality to "prove" that half the time you go climbing you will die.
People have repeated the "43 times as likely" so many times that "everybody knows its true".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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It does make sense that when guns are available, they'll be used by people who want to commit suicide instead of other means. No one disputes that guns provide very effective means to kill people.
Yeah, I was thinking about all the people I've personally met who have been killed or injured by guns (outside of war) Most were suicides, a few were accidentally shot by misfired weapons. Nobody shot anybody in self defense
FWIW
Peace
Karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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Here is an easy to use online calculator Riley.
http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html
Have to read to see where hanging goes (suffocation maybe).
Hanging is a very effective way to kill oneself (easier than some think). Firearms are more effective (but messier). Some people care about that when they chose to end their lives.
Harder to do so with pills. It's very sad. No one blames guns for this, but there is no denying they are effective for the task.
edit: One other thing... about the kid being a gun-nut. People describe murderers often as criminals, however for many, they were not criminals until AFTER they did the killing. And many describe them as crazy though before hand there was no sign of it. Knowing they are crazy, murders or gun-nuts after the fact isn't very useful. Well, except it make a person feel better than no one they know could do such a thing since they don't hang out with crazies, gun-nuts or murderers. Wonder why afterward so many say they were just so surprised and never saw it coming. :/
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
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"Guns are, socially and ethically, devastating. Worthless. They add nothing of positive, intrinsic value to a culture, a people, a country. They only diminish, destroy, display an awesome sense of malformed ego and disastrously warped humanity.
"Too much? Too far? Not really. I’m sure you already sense that all those cartoonish action movies, thuggish hip-hop songs, clunky old westerns, ultra-violent video games and the racks of high-caliber weaponry over at Cabela sporting goods and the local gun show – all of which we’ve been led to believe are so essential to our national identity – none of them offer anything of deep worth to the culture; no authentic masculinity, no real patriotism, no genuine power or strength or class. Heart, soul or integrity? Don’t be absurd."
~Mark Morford
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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I collect reproductions of 19th century rifles.
Many are more than mere working models. They are examples of fine craftsmanship.
I do not shoot them very much, some even never, and as combat/ self-defense pieces they are woefully obsolete.
But the notion that some of the people here, who haven't even got a clue of their place in history, but wish to render them non-firing, even aside from the obvious deflation in value, strike me as mule headed visigoths.
I wonder how they would feel if they collected antique cars, but weren't allowed by law to actually have spark plugs in them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Binks, good one.
Crimpie: Wonder why afterward so many say they were just so surprised and never saw it coming.
Just off-hand I'd say, as I understand was the case in this incident, that about the time you are considering or have filed a petition for involuntary commitment is probably a good time to remove weapons from the home. That mental illness and guns don't mix well in the same home shouldn't be rocket science. Perhaps doctors and mental health professionals need to be required to start asking about weapons in the home when diagnosing mental illness or prescribing particular medications. HIPAA changes should be allowed in order to tie diagnoses with gun access and allow local authorities to follow-up on the weapons access. Such households should be required to remove or secure any weapons with removal being preferred.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Crimpie, I so love your brain.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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I wonder what correlation could be presented regarding "crimes of passion".
How many gun deaths and suicides may have been prevented with a cooling off period for those with inflamed emotions. A count to ten and breathe. Stigmatizing mental health issues will not help encourage these folks to go talk with someone. These heinous acts done with guns (and knives and lead pipes and ropes and pillows and mushrooms) including assaults, suicides and mass murders seem to be, for the perpetrator at least, tragically permanent solutions to temporary problems.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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And many describe them as crazy though before hand there was no sign of it. . . Wonder why afterward so many say they were just so surprised and never saw it coming. :/
That isn't my perception of the perpetrators of these mass shootings at all--seems to me that the perpetrators are more-or-less obvious whackos (not always whacko as in it's clear they were going to murder a bunch of people, just obviously very abnormal people). While it's chilling (albeit interesting) to think that a guy who seems to be completely normal one day could be going nuts and shooting people the next, that doesn't seem to be what happens.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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So Ron,
I see from your new signature line that you are "soon to be a nipple sucking liberal"
is your mouth about to leave the NRA's nipple and suck on a "liberal's instead?
will this be a live web cam event?
you must be pretty proud of yourself for posting your new sign line..
it shows your "contempt" for "liberals" very well
congratulations for being an unbiased, non divisive, tell it straight and proudly guy
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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^^^ What lose your card? Probably stashed it where you put your marbles.
Crimpie, I so love your brain.
MMM love brain, must eat brain.
Zombies don't kill, eating brains does.
Stop watching FOX and listening to AM radio talk shows, It is all eating your brain.
I'm not saying that Anastasia is a zombie, not that there is anything wrong with that.
And now for something completely different again.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2017719/Boobs-Yes-this-is-damn-OT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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Philo, when I was younger I volunteered at a suicide and crisis intervention center and on a sheriff/police assist 'go-out' team serving 23 counties in SoIll where mental health care was limited or non-existent.
If you classify 'crimes of passion' as domestic violence then you end up with those families with perennial issues, sometimes across generations, and those that never hit the radar until it's too late or in life or death crisis. Crimpie would know better, but domestic violence calls represent some of the highest risk officers face when responding to calls so getting out in front of domestic violence whenever possible and resources are available is always preferred.
Suicides are similar with some folks known to either have issues or are experiencing trying times and others that you only find out about too late, some of those being quite premeditated and well planned.
"Stigmatizing" isn't what I'm proposing, but rather some straightforward and sensible measures for potentially getting out ahead of potential gun violence problems when healthcare professionals come to diagnostic / prognostic conclusions which indicated risk of harm to self or other. That may be based on behavior or potential medication side effects, either way I'm talking reasonable precautions linking healthcare and law enforcement professionals, not stigmatizing folks.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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Thanks Anastasia. I am teaching grad stats this spring. Too bad you aren't here. If you were, I'm help you bloom as a stats loving maniac. :)
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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^^^ You first.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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I've wanted plenty of people dead, especially when I was younger and dumber. In a rage, yeah, I could have gone off the handle. But when it comes down to it, I've never even hit anyone who hasn't hit me first.
One of the reasons I'm highly in favor of more gun control is because I've had 4 pulled on me by nut jobs for what I thought were pretty lame reasons. There are just too many nut jobs out there to make guns that accessible.
Ron, would you pull a gun on 17 yr olds doing donuts in a dirt lot by your house? What if they were brown? If so, you don't deserve to be trusted with a gun.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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Raises hand. I absolutely know of a few occasions I would have shot someone had I a firearm handy. I also now know that shooting them would not have made the situation better. Not one of them.
This is how I know I am not appropriate to carry a weapon like a firearm. So next time people talk about arming professors (or any aggregation of folks) think about me. :/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Ron, pretty simple, if the diagnosis and Rx fit, surveying for guns and securing or removing any present is probably a reasonable and prudent thing to do. I had a friend once who had some issues with depression which turned out to actually be hypothyroid (obvious once he turned yellow). While in that state I talked him out of the barrels to his two Glocks - gave them back about nine months later. All good. It's ain't rocket science, stigmatizing, or a bad idea - just basic common sense.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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So it is not a surprise that people will pull a gun over words typed on a message board? And you don't think there needs to be more gun control? Are you daft?
Yeah, I was an as#@&%e... and I deserved to be punched... but the pussies didn't punch, they pulled a gun... for donuts in a parking lot across from their house, mooning them while driving down the street, etc. It is 100% unacceptable to pull a gun and threaten the life of a 17 year old kid. If you can't control yourself in situations like that, you shouldn't have a gun. I suspect most people who have a gun shouldn't have one. More regulation...
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2012/12/18/_stand_your_ground_c.html
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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I've met Crimpie and can state categorically that she's good to belay almost all the time.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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have to agree with Ron. It's human nature not to like everybody. In theory, there are some people that we feel should not be alive. In reality, the vast majority doesn't let that become a reality
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Wes,, 17 year old KIDS kill many people these days..
They didn't in Utah back in 1991.
You acted like the punk and got threatened.
I didn't just get threatened... I got my GOD DAMN LIFE THREATENED AT GUN POINT... for doing donuts in a parking lot. You are clearly too fuking stupid to realize that it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to pull a gun in that situation... therefore, you don't deserve to have a gun.
but if you were dealing with people like you do here a lot,, im thinkin its not a surprise that you have had weapons pointed your way..
right, you're not surprised that people will pull a gun on someone for being a dick. being a dick is not a crime... threatening someone's life is.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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My father once told me of an old S. Carolina Prison warden who said, "give them to me until they're 35 and 99% of them won't give you any trouble after that..."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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...for doing donuts in a parking lot. You are clearly too fuking stupid to realize that it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to pull a gun in that situation
Depends on whether there was snow on the ground. I mean who can resist. Dry pavement? Call the swat team.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
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So it is not a surprise that people will pull a gun over words typed on a message board? And you don't think there needs to be more gun control? Are you daft?
Yeah, I was an as#@&%e... and I deserved to be punched... but the pussies didn't punch, they pulled a gun... for donuts in a parking lot across from their house, mooning them while driving down the street, etc. It is 100% unacceptable to pull a gun and threaten the life of a 17 year old kid. If you can't control yourself in situations like that, you shouldn't have a gun. I suspect most people who have a gun shouldn't have one. More regulation...
wes, dont be such a raving pussy.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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bring it bitch
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 19, 2012 - 03:38pm PT
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get that boy some kleenx.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 19, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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it's LOSE.. and congratulations on your victory.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 19, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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It's no longer a thread Locker. It's a pathology. But it has offered a fascinating peek into the bizzare mental landscapes of quite a few folks. I think the most instructive thing about this thread is that in what -- closing in on 2500? -- posts, not a single woman has posted to this thread. I wonder what our country would look like if it was not dominated by old, hung-up, fossilized white guys.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 19, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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Lilabiene posted up a nice contribution. This thread could come close to passing the Wings of Steel thread (3400+)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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Crimpie, can I rely on the stats from gunpolicy.org?
If yes, then looking at murder in general and gun violence specifically in a macro view we are becoming a much more peaceful bunch. I am not saying that 9,146 gun homicides in 2009 is somehow okay, just that we are moving steadily in a good direction and that politicians and activists who portray the situation as deteriorating are not being honest.
According to the above site, which does not have a pro-gun agenda:
In 1993 the overall murder rate in the US was app. 10/100K. The rate of murders by guns was app. 7/100K.
Since then these rates have dropped each year, and in 2010 were app 4.5/100K (total murders) and 3/100K (gun murders.) According to these numbers, the murder rate and gun murder rates have dropped by more than one half in less than 20 years.
This has happened at the same time that the rate of guns / household has hovered relatively constantly at around 45%, meaning that with the population growing the number of guns in circulation has grown proportionately.
Of course the stats don't help when an individual comes along who does something; albeit rare, which is such a stunning atrocity it garner's national attention (as it should.) I think that it is the acts of these few psychopathic individuals which should be at the center of the debate. What can we do which will realistically detect, deter, reduce or bring a halt to this kind of behavior?
It is my opinion that laws like limiting magazine capacity or banning military style guns will not change anything. If enacted such a law will not really affect me, so if it is done and it works I'll admit to being wrong.
Ron, pretty simple, if the diagnosis and Rx fit, surveying for guns and securing or removing any present is probably a reasonable and prudent thing to do. I had a friend once who had some issues with depression which turned out to actually be hypothyroid (obvious once he turned yellow). While in that state I talked him out of the barrels to his two Glocks - gave them back about nine months later. All good. It's ain't rocket science, stigmatizing, or a bad idea - just basic common sense.
Interesting - I did the same thing to myself for a few months a while back. A certain reality of life sent me into a spiral of depression. I locked away my guns and gave the keys to a good friend. I knew I did not want to kill myself, but I did not trust myself alone in the middle of the night.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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BVB,
I am Not Corysue!
(I am Sparticus)
EDIT,
come to think of it, when we met in Flagstaff you even insisted that you KNEW Piton Ron, and I wasn't him!!!
LOL
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 19, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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No women posting here??.
dont forget meschrist...you will start her to whine all over again.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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Crimpie sure seems all woman to me..As does Anastasia..No women posting here?
OK, that's three women in 2500 posts. Again, my primary point is that the entire national debate, as well as the one here, is dominated by white males.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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And as some of us may disagree with Ron's perspective on gun ownership in the United States, we must all salute in awe at the man's skills with Sushi. Plus Terrible Twos at Capitol Reef is a really great route.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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With at least 5 women posting out of what? 40? 50? posters, then you actually have a disproportionally HIGH percentage of women for the sausagefest that IS the Taco.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
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Sorry, I was busy checking out the boob thread..
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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Plus Terrible Twos at Capitol Reef is a really great route.
i thought that was a ruckman route.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
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Ron...you are one pathetic human being. Get a life you whining sack.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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Ron is this the one?
Sloan-Kellerman comparison of Seattle and Vancouver, published in the New England Journal of Medicine
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 19, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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How was YOUR climbing yesterday 10b4me???... Locker,
what with a bum shoulder, and two arthritic knees, it's a wonder I can climb out of bed
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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KSolem - I don't have time now to dig for their source - but they look an awfully lot like the FBI's SHR numbers. You can see the high levels of murder and gun violence in the early 90s and how it's declined.
I would need to look at it more closely - they use the word homicide which includes justifiable and non-justifiable killing. I assume they use homicide = murder.
We are moving in a good direction. Agree entirely! One thing about violence is that no matter what happens, people scream the word "epidemic". Hogwash! If I hear epidemic, I pretty much think that person has no idea what they are talking about. Things are getting better for sure.
A weird thing about violence - a question we are trying to answer is why is it that when overall amounts go down, the relative proportion of things (e.g., injury, reporting to police, firearm use) tends to remain constant. Interesting mystery.
It would be great if we could learn to id the ones that will go off. That is hard work. An extreme but interesting example regarding that work: Ted Bundy. The FBI fought to keep him from getting the death penalty. Why? Because they were studying him and trying to learn more to be better able (able?) to ID serial killers. But no, the public wanted blood and he was killed. No more learning there.
There are criminologists who are trying to work with mass killers too. It's hard to get permission to do so (IRB - prisoners are special subjects), you have to have a cooperative killer (and honest...) who wants to do this (we can't make them), and as you note, there are very few of them. With so few to study, we can't learn much. That we have few is good is good, but it makes learning more difficult.
It is my opinion that laws like limiting magazine capacity or banning military style guns will not change anything. If enacted such a law will not really affect me, so if it is done and it works I'll admit to being wrong.
It would be an interesting study that will take time if policies like that are implemented. It seems to me that making available weapons less lethal will reduce the numbers of bodies. But like you, I don't know for sure and would admit to being wrong if it doesn't work out that way.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
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Hey Ron does Bob D'a mean you, me, or Gomez?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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Yes, you are most evil, Ron A. Being an animal stuffer and all that.
(but at least your aliens arrived laterally)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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...An extreme but interesting example regarding that work: Ted Bundy. The FBI fought to keep him from getting the death penalty. Why? Because they were studying him and trying to learn more to be better able (able?) to ID serial killers. But no, the public wanted blood and he was killed. No more learning there.
Yeah I was pretty appalled with the whole Timothy McVeigh execution for similar reasons. We've got the guy, we have absolute certainty he did it, making him one of the more prolific mass murderers in our history, but he was executed ASAP.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
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Plus Terrible Twos at Capitol Reef is a really great route.
i thought that was a ruckman route.
Maybe I'm thinking of the one just right of it?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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Yeah I was pretty appalled with the whole Timothy McVeigh execution for similar reasons. We've got the guy, we have absolute certainty he did it, making him one of the more prolific mass murderers in our history, but he was executed ASAP.
Really lots of examples like that and it is unfortunate. One of McVeigh's accomplices (served a little prison time, his wife who also participated did not even stand trial!) got his identity changed when he got out of prison. Can't even find him to learn more about him. A shame.
Eileen Wuornos is another. No doubt she was super nuts, but there was LOTS more to her than that. However, for her, it was an election year so someone had to die. :/
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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I put up several routes in Grand Wash but my favorite was Immaculate Seduction in November '87, at the west end.
Be interesting to find out if McVeigh killed more people with an M2 or the truck.
The trigger time in Iraq likely made his heart colder.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
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I appreciate TRs optimism upthread about curing mental illnesses, but I am not so optimistic about helping the ones who are devoid of any conscience, who are incapable of empathy.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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Oh, and Michelle's comment upthread got a huge laugh out of me. Good one!
I appreciate TRs optimism upthread about curing mental illnesses, but I am not so optimistic about helping the ones who are devoid of any conscience, who are incapable of empathy.
Agreed. Not easy issues at all. Mental health. Lethality of weapons. Alcohol. Those without empathy.
And some are moving targets. People aren't necessarily always mentally ill. Or alcoholics.
You would think that we as a country could do better. How to do that is the hard part. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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A trace could not be run on it as it had been sold and resold. It was a chinese made AK 47 that more than likely made its way through our southern border, as many of those same weapons do.
I seriously doubt that, more like Long Beach harbor. There are plenty of Chinese pre- and post-ban AKs around.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Crimpergirl: Not easy issues at all. Mental health. Lethality of weapons. Alcohol.
I think the mental health / gun issue can be addressed at least adequately provided resources are put to the task. Alcohol-driven domestic violence is much tougher even if the police are familiar with a family - it's a temporary insanity that's hard to predict.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 19, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
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P. Ron,,,a couple of YOUR routes are on MY personal thingy on Mtn project FYI...?
sounds like you boys might want to discuss that in private?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
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Really lots of examples like that and it is unfortunate. One of McVeigh's accomplices (served a little prison time, his wife who also participated did not even stand trial!) got his identity changed when he got out of prison. Can't even find him to learn more about him. A shame.
Eileen Wuornos is another. No doubt she was super nuts, but there was LOTS more to her than that. However, for her, it was an election year so someone had to die. :/
I got an earful from a friend from here for suggesting this, but;
Google - Operation Open Eyes
McVeigh was a sleeper, he had to be isolated and put down. Jonestown, Waco, Colombine, and others were too. Still going on.
Your welcome Klimmer. Here's some help...
http://www.rumormillnews.com/operation.htm
part 2 gets creepier than the first part.
And then this re: Colombine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOCVZqVG27w
Have a nice day!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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Hey Bluering, if possible, can you just answer the 'why' question for the links? That is, why is the govt allegedly doing this?
I really am still working so I've not got time to read all of that (especially that wicked font color)! Thanks
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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Hey Bluering, if possible, can you just answer the 'why' question for the links? That is, why is the govt allegedly doing this?
To create hysteria amongst the general population who will in turn beg the gov't to remove guns from Americans.
We are the last powerful country that has a very well armed civilian population. That stands in the way of the Globalists. We are also the most free and independent country (because of the 2nd Amendment, in part). Remove the guns and they can dismantle us. The Globalists.
I know, I know...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
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blue: McVeigh was a sleeper, he had to be isolated and put down. Jonestown, Waco, Colombine, and others were too. Still going on.
Barking dogs is all this is - and more like barking chihuahuas at that.
Funny how these folks think the government is completely incompetent at delivering the most and mundane of services, but eerily capable amazing feats of broad secrecy, seamless interagency coordination, wide-scale social engineering, and technological feats of absolute wonder.
Which is it?
We are also the most free and independent country (because of the 2nd Amendment, in part). Remove the guns and they can dismantle us. The Globalists.
I know, I know...
Jesus, I hope so. I mean can you say completely delusional on both counts.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
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This friend that worked under Reagan and both Bushes laughs when he hears about conspiracy theories carried out by our government...As he said , our government could never get organized enough to conspire....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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Healyje, there are very competent arms of gov't. But the bureaucrats? I think those are the incompetent whore-ish ones you referred to.
I'm not asking you to believe anything as fact. I'm just offering alternate conclusions, that actually make a whole lot of sense if you read the whole thing.
The dots connect. Maybe too conveniently? Maybe.
Do not underestimate the covert operations wing of our government. That's all I'm saying. And that includes a former Republican President who's name started with G
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
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Funny how these folks think the government is completely incompetent at delivering the most mundane services, but eerily capable amazing feats of broad secrecy, seamless interagency coordination, wide-scale social engineering, and technological feats of absolute wonder.
^^ Very good points, healyje. I'd like to hear some answers on this too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
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This friend that worked under Reagan and both Bushes laughs when he hears about conspiracy theories carried out by our government...As he said , our government could never get organized enough to conspire....
Then ignore me.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
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Crimpie: Hey Bluering, if possible, can you just answer the 'why' question for the links? That is, why is the govt allegedly doing this?
Bluering: To create hysteria amongst the general population who will in turn beg the gov't to remove guns from Americans.
We are the last powerful country that has a very well armed civilian population. That stands in the way of the Globalists. We are also the most free and independent country (because of the 2nd Amendment, in part). Remove the guns and they can dismantle us. The Globalists.
I know, I know...
Well, that settles it then. Agents from "The Globalists" kidnapped young Lanza, instituted mind-control procedures, and then turned him back loose knowing that when they gave the signal he would turn into a mindless robot and go on a killing spree.
Thank god that's settled and we can stop worrying about gun control laws and other silly sh#t.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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oh man, their even more powerful than I thought! this is getting spooky...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
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To create hysteria amongst the general population who will in turn beg the gov't to remove guns from Americans.
Thanks for the Cliff Notes Bluey.
Seems easier just to outlaw them to me. Yeah, people would whine and all, but still it seems easier.
And as far as bad bureaucrats. I must tell you that I work with some massively hard-working and smart folks. There are bums - they are in every occupation/sector - but most people work hard.
My two cents.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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I'm just offering alternate conclusions, that actually make a whole lot of sense if you read the whole thing.
The fact they make a "whole lot of sense" says nothing about them and a lot about you. Lots of fiction 'makes sense', but the ability to distinguish fact from fiction seems to be getting harder and harder for a lot of folks and to be honest, that kind of clueless fundamentalism is way, way more dangerous than guns.
Repeat after me: there are no 'globalists', the UN is not going to strafe Ron's store, there are no chemtrails, there sure as hell are no sasquatch, and there are no hidden, compartmentalized, hyper-efficient branches of government.
RonA: NDAA 2013
Dude, just join the ACLU and get over yourself on the NDAA 2013.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
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t*r writes:
"i felt, and still feel - it's very important to point out that the majority of people with mental illness are not dangerous"
The same is true about American gun owners.
Right now, all the legislation proposed would have done nothing to prevent what happened in Connecticut, but will unnecessarily inconvience good people who own or aspire to own guns.
Since the mentally ill are the other half of the equation here, perhaps they should be inconvienced by new laws as well. Perhaps a national data base of people who have been treated with psychotropic drugs, such as Zoloft, Ambien, Xanax, Ritilan, etc. needs to be made available for public viewing - like Megan's List for chesters.
At the very least, people who have been treated with psychotropic drugs should be barred from owning guns. Including cops.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Bluey...I wasn't talking to you so how can i ignore you...? RJ
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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At the very least, people who have been treated with psychotropic drugs should be barred from owning guns. Including cops.
Good idea but it'll never happen.
We've got to remember that nobody is cramming these poisons down our throats. 90% of the people I work with are absolutely stuffed with meds in general(not just psychotropics). A lot of the blame is on our lazy society in general. There is no conspiracy. We're doing it to ourselves and our children.
The difference, and this needs to be run high up the flagpole, is that most meds only affect the user. The black labels, already there, must be expanded on these head poisons and clearly state that the user might not only kill themselves, but may kill family members or random groups of others in a psychotic rage, without warning.
How do you think that'll affect sales? Hey, has anyone seen a head-med ad on TV in the past week? I haven't...
Some of these new meds doubtlessly do help some people when taken in small amounts. The question our society has to ask is, if we're will to accept the .01% chance of suicide AND murder.
I know when Tylenol came with a cyanide surprise every now and then, people won't so quick to go that route. These pills are like cyanide with a couple fragmentation grenades in the box. Less than the chance of lightning striking though... so don't worry!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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Ho man! I'd love to be on that committee!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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Seems easier just to outlaw them to me. Yeah, people would whine and all, but still it seems easier.
And as far as bad bureaucrats. I must tell you that I work with some massively hard-working and smart folks. There are bums - they are in every occupation/sector - but most people work hard.
My two cents.
Seems hyperbolic, but remember the Jews in Germany? The people of Cambodia?
There's a reason for the old Santayana saying. I'm sure you know it. The Jews have a similar one. "Never again".
When you eliminate all guns, only gov't has absolute power over people's freewill. Gov't should fear us. We are losing this.
Our Founder's knew this and included the 2nd Amendment intentionally! In the Declaration they even said that we have a DUTY to overthrow a gov't that is tyrannical and oppresses the rights of the governed.
I'm surprised that you don't realize this, Callie. What is it going to take for you to say, "Our gov't is out of control and is in disregard of our rights as citizens?"
Oh, and Benghazi? That one is a fresh one. It wasn't a consulate! It was a CIA station-house to run guns from Libya to Syria so we could overthrow another country.
We were set up by the Russians who opposed the overthrow of Syria (Russia friendly). The whole thing went bad. As far as I know the SEALS weren't in on it and disobeyed orders to rescue people. This escalated the direct fire.
Ask yourself this. Where are the 25-30 people who made it out of that compound? Who were rescued. Where are they? No word from them?
Deprogramming? Isolation till "shit blows over"?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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Once again bluering does nothing more than prove that he is batshit crazy, sorry brah
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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GUD question Bluey , have wondered about all the other folks not mentioned once since..Im no batshyt crazy,, but in govt, its ALWAYS whats not said to be the truth. "Bill Clinton,, I did not have setchel relations with that woman"! Geo Bush,, there are WMDs in Iraq! Obama - "I will cut the deficit in half" and so on.
Yep, everyone forgot about all those people who were "rescued". I hear they are in isolation in Germany for "review".
I'm bat-shit crazy for raising questions YOU IDIOTS SHOULD BE ASKING!!!
Yeah. I'm the crazy one. Me and good ol' Ron.
Ask questions, and do not listen to media. Use common sense and logic.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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Where are the 25-30 people who made it out of that compound?
Er, um, they work for the CIA either directly or contractors. Should they be doing interviews with the media?
Please, please, put me on TV, then send me out on another clandestine op.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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They are subpeonaing the SOS for testimony on WTF happened, and there are no questions from the survivors of the "consulate" attack?
WTF???
Where are they?
EDIT:
Er, um, they work for the CIA. Should they be doing interviews with the media? Please,please, put me on TV, then send me out on another clandestine op.
It's rumored that Steven's and his station chief were CIA too. Does this mean the survivors do not have to answer questions? Closed door, at least?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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They've been debriefed, and congress critters got private briefings.
Why do you insist on blowing their covers?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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Because 2 SEALS are dead and were denied air-support.
Nobody told the retired ops that they were being hung out to dry. Maybe they would have bailed if they knew, and their kids would have Dads for Xmas.
The whole f*#king thing stinks!
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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Maybe you guy's should just give up yer "tools" so are government can quit killing all these innocent people just to prove a point.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
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They sure were a smart bunch, foreseeing events that happened a century or two later.
You know damn well what I speak of, Anders. Smartass!
EDIT: 2 EX-SEALS. PRIVATE CONTRACTORS. I THOUGHT WE WENT OVER THIS.
I said that they were retired. WTF is your point? WTF does that have to do with the cover-up? The white-washing?
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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This event will do for the left what 911 did for the right.
The GOP refusing to raise taxes will be their final act.
Just wait for the Dems landslide midterm election.
Everyday the US gets more liberal.
Gay marriage, legal pot, A Big loving government hug.
Thank the dark ages GOP. Remember Mitt Romney? Sarah Palin?
AWSOME! THESE GUYS ARE ON FIRE!
They've been wrong on....well pretty.....much everything!
Their policies are about as relevant as the catholic church.
Bring on socialism!
Climb more and workless.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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Bluerings been painting with the windows closed
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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blue: Our Founder's knew this and included the 2nd Amendment intentionally! In the Declaration they even said that we have a DUTY to overthrow a gov't that is tyrannical and oppresses the rights of the governed.
Those days are long, long past my friend. You're guns are like tits on a bull for that purpose.
blue: I'm surprised that you don't realize this, Callie. What is it going to take for you to say, "Our gov't is out of control and is in disregard of our rights as citizens?"
The neocons along with Nixon, Reagan, and Bush Sr. loyalists in W's administration absolutely raped the Constitution as did Reagan and Bush Sr. - W's crew get extra points for sodomizing the Bill of Rights and the dramatic increase in executive power. Obama is simply doing what any president of any party would do - not relinquishing any executive power which is why it was a such a mistake. But W's crew had long memories and thought both Nixon and Reagan were wronged in being called on their abuses of power. Also, all of the various pardons from Nixon on have had the effect of encouraging the abuses.
blue: Oh, and Benghazi? That one is a fresh one. It wasn't a consulate! It was a CIA station-house to run guns from Libya to Syria so we could overthrow another country.
Well, giving credit where credit is due you get this correct, it was a CIA station with an ambassador in residence which makes some sense in a fresh conflict zone when the new government has relocated away from our embassy infrastructure. But we weren't overthrowing another country and the Arab Spring was not of our making. In all of these countries our hand has been forced in order to stay relevant in the region.
blue: We were set up by the Russians who opposed the overthrow of Syria (Russia friendly). The whole thing went bad. As far as I know the SEALS weren't in on it and disobeyed orders to rescue people. This escalated the direct fire.
Please, the Russians were not involved. It was a CIA blindsiding f*#kup start to finish and there's no conspiracy of any kind, just the typical snafus that happen in conflict zones. The failure to respond was undoubtedly a joint military/CIA call by Petraeus and Panetta not wanting to repeat of our debacle in Somalia.
blue: Ask yourself this. Where are the 25-30 people who made it out of that compound? Who were rescued. Where are they? No word from them? Deprogramming? Isolation till "shit blows over"?
The staff relocated to our embassy Tripoli where we have some reasonably secure infrastructure that meets BDS standards and non-essential personnel came home to State or were redeployed elsewhere, i.e. they're back to work. Four bodies and three wounded went to Germany. There is no reason why there would be any word from them.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
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So, this thread has devolved into a neocon conspiracy trash heap? What a tribute.
Uh, no. The neo-cons were the problem too. Are you paying attention? The libs are to blame too.
2 partys, 1 world gov't. They like us distracted and fighting amongst ourselves.
Meanwhile....
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
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So, somebody explain this to me:
If it takes a heavily armed population to stop tyranny, how did the unarmed populations of eastern Europe kick out their Russian installed governments?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Blue: 1 world gov't.
There is no 1 world gov't - not even a 0.25 world gov't. Yeah, at this point we way off track entertaining Ron and Blue's delusions.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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Meanwhile....
My t.v. dinners getting cold and the neighbor kid isn't here to draft up my next post
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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At least stick to rants about the Newtown shooting... I'm pretty sure Adam Lanza wasn't a CIA operative in Libya.
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:37pm PT
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Obama - "I will cut the deficit in half" and so on.
Well, he hasn't quite gotten there, but it was 1.4 trillion in 2009, which was Bush's last budget. Half of which would be 700 billion. It is projected to be 900 billion for 2013. So he has lowered it quite a bit, coming close to halving it. Still got a ways to go, but he came close to halving it.
Just saying Ron.. because you have made this statement a lot for why you don't trust Obama. Just seems odd to me, especially considering the mess he was left to clean up.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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lmao
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
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Benghazi and Sandy have this in common. Initial news reports on anything are full of wrong information. YOu can say they are both conspiracies but it seems that when I know the real circumstances of an event and then read about it, they get it all wrong.
Many of us have had that experience
Peace
Karl
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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"When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe." John Muir
It is no surprise that the right wing is somehow connecting the school massacre and the need for reasonable gun regulation to the Libya attack. While a construction inspector at Yosemite in the early eighties, I was advised: "when thing go wrong, involve as many people as possible." Seems that advise is still true - any movement by the populous to embrace reasonable gun regulation is time to stir things up and confuse the matter with unrelated blather.
.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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You willing to get NPS LEOs to give up their ARs, or just civilians?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 19, 2012 - 10:59pm PT
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but it seems that when I know the real circumstances of an event and then read about it, they get it all wrong.
Many of us have had that experience
Yep, from a simple traffic accident to a climbing fatality, to this story the press are fools,
if not outright liars.
Write a story that sells!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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any movement by the populous to embrace reasonable gun regulation is time to stir things up and confuse the matter with unrelated blather.
In your tree-hugger jargon, what is "reasonable gun control"? Arming the people tasked with protecting our kids? Or disarming everybody so that criminals and gov't can decide what to do?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
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When you eliminate all guns, ...
Certainly not what I was thinking. Not what I've heard either (but I've been busy so maybe I missed that). Not sure that it is possible even if wanted.
Seriously Bluering - I appreciate your Cliff notes on that page. I hope my comments don't come off differently.
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
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In your tree-hugger jargon, what is "reasonable gun control"? Arming the people tasked with protecting our kids? Or disarming everybody so that criminals and gov't can decide what to do?
Yes Blue... those are the only two options.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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So, somebody explain this to me:
If it takes a heavily armed population to stop tyranny, how did the unarmed populations of eastern Europe kick out their Russian installed governments?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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Yes Blue... those are the only two options.
What other rules do we need applied? We already have tons of gun restrictions!
EDIT: If it takes a heavily armed population to stop tyranny, how did the unarmed populations of eastern Europe kick out their Russian installed governments?
The Pope and the threats from the US via out-arming them and them going broke as a result.
EDIT: I say arm the Kids!!!
What if the gunman kills the teacher, then it's up to the kids to kill off the wacko with a AK-47
Maybe if we give each student a grenade and a glock, they can keep the school safe
More guns, that's BluRing's and the rest of Satan's hand maidens answer to our dilemma
I thought you were going to go back to the women's titty thread. F*#k off pervert.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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reasonable gun regulation This is what I said. Quite different from "gun control" as you believe it to be. We have little, if any debate.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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Jesse, we don't have reasonable gun regulation now?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Bluey: What regulations are in place? I mean, I know tanks and sh#t aren't allowed, but I'm not up on this.
I think (but am not sure) 'automatic' weapons are banned. But also, my understanding is the definition of "automatic" weapon differs jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
What exactly is now banned?
And how does registration work?
I know both my parents have CCW, but I know the process to get that was weak-sauce (TX).
Would really love some info on this stuff.
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
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Ron.. I just think that what you keep repeating as the reason you don't trust Obama is false. Don't trust him.. thats fine by me. I don't really trust him either. So what. but I don't repeat falsehoods as some ambiguous truth.
Blue.. upthread we have discussed limiting access to semiautomatic weapons and large clips. Its just a discussion. I just don't understand why your only answer is one of two extremes when many people have said they don't favor eliminating all guns. That is an NRA talking point and I believe that it is baloney.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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Thanks Ron. Damn. That sweet deal on a tank I was working over Craigslist doesn't look like it's gonna happen now. :)
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
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There is no federal assault ban now. Expired in 2004.
California and a few states have them now.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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So, what exactly is banned now? I believe it differs place to place? I know some feel lots is banned - I don't know what is and isn't.
edit: And I think (but won't bet on it) that what is banned differs cosmetically from what isn't. No real difference between some banned and not-banned items? Help?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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Basically, new full auto machine guns made after 1986 are banned at the Fed level.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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Crimpie, CCW in Texas is easy. California is almost impossible unless you're Sean Penn (Hollywood) or right-wing radio host (death threats).
Regs?
Background checks through the ATF. EVERY gun purchase requires this. As far as I know this is a Fed Law across ALL states. (Unless you're running guns to Mexico, then they let that slide).
THAT IS THE DEAL-BREAKER. In Calif I have to wait 15 days after I purchase a gun before I can walk out with it.
This process would be greatly improved if in that period they did a 'national pharma search' to see if I was receiving psycotropic drugs. As of now it is merely a checkbox on the gun-form. "Do you suffer from mental illness", or something like that.
That could change. And should!
Did Dave receive his gift?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
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Ken ,,,Saieso was my friend. He feared for his life and i knew that to be correct.. Remember SA in the 70s??>?
I will remember that you will violate firearms sales laws when you feel like it.
The excuse you give is exactly the same as all perps, looking out for their homies.
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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That could change. And should!
One minute you say we have plenty of gun control laws, and now you want to add a new one. Do you see why you drive some people kind of nuts?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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Yes Bluey - received and being enjoyed. Lots of photos taken so a mini-TR is in the works. Hoping he gets it up tonight or tomorrow. Very kind of you! :)
edit: Gets the PHOTOS up tonight or tomorrow. hahaha!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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Perhaps doctors and mental health professionals need to be required to start asking about weapons in the home when diagnosing mental illness or prescribing particular medications.
I believe a couple of states, Florida I think, have enacted laws that prohibit doctors from asking about firearms or counseling about firearm safety.
Of course, this is done by Republicans, who philosophically are opposed to gov't intruding on private conversations between people.
Right.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
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Hoping he gets it up tonight or tomorrow
wtf?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
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One minute you say we have plenty of gun control laws, and now you want to add a new one. Do you see why you drive some people kind of nuts?
I'm not into gun control. I'm into controlling who should be allowed to have guns.
Callie? Cheers!
Woot! Good stuff!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
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DRF, How about some pics of flowers
This place smells like a morgue
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
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'm not into gun control. I'm into controlling who should be allowed to have guns.
That would still be a law that controls access to guns. Something that we have been discussing.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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The Pope and the threats from the US via out-arming them and them going broke as a result.
So if we got the Pope, why do we need unfettered access to military arms?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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Touche Kennyt!
I'm crying from laughing. Good one. :)
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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Sorry I couldn't pass it up
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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hahahahaa!
I wouldn't have passed that one up either!
hahahhaha! Still laughing out loud here. :)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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So if we got the Pope, why do we need unfettered access to military arms?
It was a joint-op. We weakened the Soviets and the Papa encouraged the Eastern Blok to dissolve.
That same Pope blessed me once in St Peter's Square. Really.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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I'm not into gun control. I'm into controlling who should be allowed to have guns. are they not one in the same? think that's basically what most have been suggesting.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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I didn't just get threatened... I got my GOD DAMN LIFE THREATENED AT GUN POINT... for doing donuts in a parking lot. You are clearly too fuking stupid to realize that it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to pull a gun in that situation... therefore, you don't deserve to have a gun.
Well, you never know.
A car can be a deadly weapon. People get shot by police, and by soldiers all the time. You may not have stopped when asked, and turned the car towards them, making them feel threatened. That's all it takes. You made them FEEL threatened with a deadly weapon.
We haven't heard about the alcohol fueling the situation, either, clouding your memory and your judgement.
Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Well Ken you may not think so but there is ONE HELL of a difference between Saieso and the hoodlum homies. And I did not break a law one bub. Not friggin one. GET A CLUE.
Why did you buy a gun under your name and give it to your friend, instead of giving the money to your friend to buy a gun under his own name?
Give us all a clue.....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Meanwhile, first day of school in Texas:
I just bought one of those rifles, the second one she fires. Henry Arms AR-7.
And yeah, in 2-3 years my kid will be firing it.
EDIT: are they not one in the same? think that's basically what most have been suggesting.
Do I really need to explain the difference? Think.
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John M
climber
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Dec 19, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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Blue..
We understand the difference. So no.. you do not need to explain. Do you understand that it is still controlling access to guns, which is a form of gun control? One form that we have been discussing.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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That could change. And should!
Very minimal adjustment needed. The bridge to agreement is shorter than we think.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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oops, sorry wrong thread. But she is carrying.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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Thats a single action.
I'm more into double action.
Just saying,..
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:07am PT
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Very minimal adjustment needed. The bridge to agreement is shorter than we think.
Yep!
JohnM, I understand! We are splitting hairs!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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1 in 5 Americans wouldn't be able to get a gun then. Who knew bluey was for such wide sweeping gun restrictions?
I stand by that statement. Just make sure you quote me as saying "psychotropic drugs".
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John M
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:10am PT
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This is what I call armed and dangerous.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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That girl must take care of herself!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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Oh, wow, that means legislation to follow shortly! It seems like it would all be on the honor system with HIPPA involved. Nice idea though.
Talk to the Fed first, and the DEA after that re: Schedule 1 drugs.
Take another bong-rip, bra....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:26am PT
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Of which class psychotropic drugs are not.
Idiot? Really?
Maybe you should look into the effects of modern Schedule 1 drugs vs pharmacological drugs!
This is why kids are in danger from doctors! If if comes from a pharmacy it must be good, right? Doctor said so.
And super-potent strains of marijuana are all-natural gifts from the earth. Nature can do no psychotropic harm, right?
This is coming to you from a former pothead. Never got duped into the Pharma crap though...
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John M
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/law/law_fed_info1.shtml
NO CONTROL BUT Rx
Although they may be prescription drugs, the following drugs of abuse
are not in the above DEA Schedules: butalbital/acetominophen (Fiori-
cet, although its exact equivalent Fiorinal IS in C-III!), carisopro-
dol (Soma, similar to meprobamate), nalbuphine (Nubain), butorphanol
(Stadol), dezocine (Dalgan), phenytoin/phenobarbital (Dilantin with
phenobarbital), ketamine (Ketalar or Ketaset). Summary: includes
mixed agonist/antagonist narcotic analgesics, sedatives, and a
dissociative anesthetic.
It should be noted that many psychoactive drugs are neither con-
trolled substances NOR SHOULD BE. Neuroleptics such as chlorproma-
zine (Thorazine), haloperidol (Haldol), and thioridazine (Mellaril)
do not produce a "high" and can be downright unpleasant. Lithium
can be toxic and has no perceivable psychological effect. Anti-
depressants such as amitryptaline (Elavil) and fluoxetine (Prozac)
DO produce psychological effects, but they are not particularly
pleasant. The OLDER antidepressants, the MAO inhibitors such as tranyl-
cypromine (Parnate), can be argued for inclusion since they, after
about 2-4 weeks, produce an amphetamine-like high. However, they
are not controlled substances. The new antianxiety drug buspirone
(Buspar) is effective but does not produce any kind of soothing
sedation as does diazepam (Valium). Phenytoin (Dilantin) and
other anticonvulsants do not produce outward sedation except in
the case of toxic overdosage. Nicotine Rx preparations such as
Nicorette gum and Habitrol or Nicoderm transdermal patches can
be argued for inclusion as Controlled Substances due to nicotine's
extremely high abuse liability. It can also be put the other way:
since cigarettes are OTC, why have the other nicotine preparations
prescription drugs?
They aren't covered by the DEA's schedule of drugs which can be abused as they aren't considered something that makes you high.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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They aren't covered by the DEA's schedule of drugs which can be abused as they aren't considered something that makes you high.
So what?
Schedule 1 drugs are ones with no proven medicinal value (which is kinda bullshit).
What's yer point?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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Your point was as clear as mud. So, as you did, I stand by my statement.
Most Schedule 1 belongs there. Psychotropic meds can be most helpful, but your job probably does not show you that as mine does daily. Over prescribed, you betcha. Comparing psychotropics to sched 1 drugs is about as accurate as comparing cars to guns though. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your shitty ass analogies by this point.
Since I'm clearly such an obtuse idiot, maybe you can explain your original point in a more subtle and coherent manner that even us fools could grasp. We aren't as smart as you and don't have your expertise in this field.
Explain.
EDIT: No, marijuana is not f*#king medicine, not any more than alcohol is medicine.
Actually Marinol is a medicine from marijuana compounds.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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So that's it! Nice reply....
You got nothing?
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John M
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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Sometimes I have a hard time understanding Blue, but what I think he meant to say is that since the Feds control schedule one drugs, then they could control psychotropic drugs. But they already are controlled, just not under a DEA schedule.
And health privacy laws would have to be changed in order for the knowledge of who is taking what drugs to be given to the ATF. And then you would have to decide which drugs were dangerous.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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Maybe you should call it a night Bluering. The sedatives should be kicking in shortly. go over and have one last look at the tittays and sweet dreams...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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Exactly. Hardly any of the uses of marijuana as medicine have anything to do with the "sick" guy in line with his card in hand at the dispensary.
I never said marijuana didn't have medicinal values. It does. It's a fact.
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John M
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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I agree..
but.. this is the same argument the people who don't want semi automatics and assault rifles banned use.
At what point would you be stepping on 20% of the U.S. population's rights as outlined in the Constitution?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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I am not going to keep repeating myself because you can't read things the first time, Blue. You are completely missing the points I am making, so discussion is pointless.
Can you reiterate your main point in one brief sentence? Surely you can do that.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:16am PT
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Sh#t Jebus now he's gonna go over and rain on the tittie parade.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:18am PT
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One sentence summary, Bluey? You got it!
Bluering, resident retard, is a notorious mind suck here on Supertopo and is better off ignored since his drivel to reading comprehension ratio is massively skewed in the wrong direction.
G'night, Bluetard. You've claimed enough time from me this eve, ya rascal!
Nice. You are obviously too intellectually superior to engage with people like myself. Sorry for troubling you with honest discourse, and apparently too many questions.
Have a good night.
EDIT:
G'night, Bluetard. You've claimed enough time from me this eve, ya rascal!
Nice...
EDIT: WadeIcey, f*#k you! Hey wanna climb soon???
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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f*#k you! Hey wanna climb soon???
bluey f*#k you too! ..bipartisan cragging ASAP...I'm back in the bay after the first, Hippie!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:30am PT
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WadeIcey, we may have something special to show you by then....new.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:32am PT
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Ken,,he didnt have the money nor the experience to to purchase a weapon for himself. I taught him how to use it as well. Any other friggin thing you wanna pick on.
Pardon me??
Your friend did not have the experience to BUY a gun? Does he not know how money works? How did he get food, dive dumpsters? Why could you not give him the money, and have him buy it himself???
It is apparent that it was either illegal for him to buy it, or you were trying to hide the purchase by him.
I have, on a number of occasions, accompanied friends to a gun store to advise them on buying a gun, just as I have with cars.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Dec 20, 2012 - 03:09am PT
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The lessons:
1. There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K–6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers. ...a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm.
2. There are things you can do. Run is one of them, because most shooters can’t hit a moving target. The other, if you are in a confined space, is throw things at the killer, or try a tackle.
3. You simply can’t give a non-working, non-school-enrolled 20-year-old man free range of your home, much less your cache of weapons. You have to set boundaries. You have to say, “You can’t live here anymore — you’re an adult, and it’s time for you to be a man.
Can you believe that bullsh#t?
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335996/newtown-answers-nro-symposium#
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John M
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 03:51am PT
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Granite, your post looked like these were your thoughts. I had to go to the link to see that they weren't.
Yes.. It is crazy the things people believe.
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Degaine
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:28am PT
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bluering wrote:
Nice. You are obviously too intellectually superior to engage with people like myself. Sorry for troubling you with honest discourse, and apparently too many questions.
I would never refer to your posts as being purposefully dishonest, but at the very least they are are woefully ignorant and ill-informed, and often they are intellectually dishonest, for example criticizing Obama for something that Bush did over and over again and that you never had a problem with.
I'm not into ad hominem attacks, but you pretty much insult other posters without discretion and in a shotgun manner, much like The Chief, and your replies to 99% of my posts (when you reply to them) have been condescending if not down right insulting.
You don't see JElezarean (sp?) receiving the same flurry of insults that you do because he treats other people with respect(and quite honestly, you don't with regard to all discussions political).
You might want to work on that (oh, and I'll take your apology in a pm/email if you feel the need to save face in front of everyone here).
Cheers.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:12am PT
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Took me on a nice ride there Granite!
Looks like the "war on women" is still ongoing in some places! Lots of XX blame in those three short lessons. :/
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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-- Mayan Palace Theater, San Antonio, Texas, this week: Jesus Manuel Garcia shoots at a movie theater, a police car and bystanders from the nearby China Garden restaurant; as he enters the movie theater, guns blazing, an armed off-duty cop shoots Garcia four times, stopping the attack. Total dead: Zero.
 Winnemucca, Nev., 2008: Ernesto Villagomez opens fire in a crowded restaurant; concealed carry permit-holder shoots him dead. Total dead: Two. (I'm excluding the shooters' deaths in these examples.)
Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.
Santee, Calif., 2001: Student begins shooting his classmates -- as well as the "trained campus supervisor"; an off-duty cop who happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day points his gun at the shooter, holding him until more police arrive. Total dead: Two.
Pearl High School, Mississippi, 1997: After shooting several people at his high school, student heads for the junior high school; assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieves a .45 pistol from his car and points it at the gunman's head, ending the murder spree. Total dead: Two.
Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One.
"William Landes at the University of Chicago and John Lott at Yale, conducted a massive study of multiple victim public shootings in the United States between 1977 and 1995 to see how various legal changes affected their frequency and death toll.
Landes and Lott examined many of the very policies being proposed right now in response to the Connecticut massacre: waiting periods and background checks for guns, the death penalty and increased penalties for committing a crime with a gun.
None of these policies had any effect on the frequency of, or carnage from, multiple-victim shootings. (I note that they did not look at reforming our lax mental health laws, presumably because the ACLU is working to keep dangerous nuts on the street in all 50 states.)
Only one public policy has ever been shown to reduce the death rate from such crimes: concealed-carry laws.
Their study controlled for age, sex, race, unemployment, retirement, poverty rates, state population, murder arrest rates, violent crime rates, and on and on.
The effect of concealed-carry laws in deterring mass public shootings was even greater than the impact of such laws on the murder rate generally."
and who's buying guns?
dmoecratic females in northern states:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2012/12/19/a-gun-ownership-renaissance/?wprss=rss_politics
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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Shhh bookworm,
people don't want to hear you.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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Instead they were mostly Democrats….
Please point to the data in that article that shows that.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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Riley,
love it, change it, or leave it, but ease up just a bit there on the redundancy of saying the same thing over and over and over and ov,....
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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Regs?
Background checks through the ATF. EVERY gun purchase requires this. As far as I know this is a Fed Law across ALL states.
Not even close, depending on where you live. Even licensed firearms dealers may not be required to do a background check if they are not operating out of their primary place of business. Personal transactions too, as long as I don't KNOW you are a felon, I can sell you anything.
Last time I checked, there are no metal detectors at state borders or city limits, so in the absence of effective federal restrictions, local laws are irrelevant, serving only to supply the pro-gun lobby with talking points.
Ron's claim that he broke no laws when he purchased (or gave?) a gun to someone who was unable to purchase one himself, however noble the intent, shows how lacking the cultural and legal framework of responsibility is.
Speaking of effective, making something merely illegal is not likely to be effective, an effective law should frustrate the act. A cop was killed here in suburban Philly a few months ago by a gun acquired through a straw purchaser. The state legislature immediately enacted a law increasing the penalty for second-time convictions to 5-years! Second Time?????????
Straw purchasers are potential accessories or co-conspirators to murder and should be treated as such, but restrictions like one-gun-a-month would eliminate the financial potential, or at the very least drive up the price enough to prevent every gangster wannabe teenage kid or meth-head from buying one with pocket change.
TE
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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Poor Obama looks like he is in his 70's already..
thank goodness for this great man
lol
His is a good looking puppet. At least this new one can read unlike the Bush puppet.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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There are many on this thread who are NOT in favor of "meaningful reform"
Those same people then criticize efforts FOR "meaningful reform"
oh, by the way, it is not "one week", the deadline is the end of January
but you already knew that, because you never shoot your mouth off without getting the facts correct first
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:53am PT
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No later then January.
Does not mean "No later then January 1st"
Norton beat me to the obvious. Ron demonstrates his poor reading comprehension once again.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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Here's a thought!
Why don't we do NOTHING!
You guys already do that, nothing new.
Sitting on an internet forum talking sh!t is doing nothing ......
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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TradEddie,, i DID NOT BREAK ONE LAW ,, i REPEAT NOT ONE in acquiring a firearm for a legal exchange student.. NOT ONE ,, IS THIS MIC ON!???
I never said you did, my point is that the fact that you could legally provide one to someone who presumably was unable to get one legally himself shows how inadequate the laws are.
Oh, and I have WRITTEN (pen, paper and stamp) my representative.
TE
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 20, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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you are the master of useless Mental Speculation
i dunno about that...sometimes i think you guys are long lost bros.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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Ron, did you buy the gun from a federally licensed dealer?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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Ron, did you buy the gun from a federally licensed dealer?
Yep Mono..
And My African buddy did indeed make it home.
Then you broke the law.
I advise you to delete your posts.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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This thread has devolved into the most pathetic form of navel-gazing. Carry on.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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Not to interrupt this productive discussion, but I have a suggestion.
All of the school shootings are by white 16-28 year old males who all seem to be victims of some sort of bullying early in life. Thats why they come back and act out on schools.
We see innocent 6 and 7 year olds, but lets face it, kids can be incredibly cruel.
I think that we can reduce the number of these tragedies by using multiple strategies at once that include proactively dealing with bullying, reducing or limiting time on desensitizing violent video games, and encouraging responsible gun ownership which means not only kid proofing your guns but also gun proofing your kids.
Oh,.. and one other thing; truly parent your kids instead of outsourcing.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
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As I learn more about the gun industry and the NRA over the last few decades the I'm more disgusted with them. This is coming from a gun owner.
They have basically done all they can to put military weapons in the hands of civilians, because hunting is declining so they need another revenue stream. They scare people into thinking they need assault rifles, armor piercing bullets, and sniper rifles. And you hear their rediculous talking points popping up here on the taco from the anti gun control folks.
For example I've read here: "assault weapons aren't a real thing, it's just cosemetic differences, it's the same as a hunting rifle.". B.S. The main failure of the 1994 assault weapons ban was they did include those cosemtic differences (collapsing stock, bayonet mount, flash suppressor) along with the most importnat thing: the ability to take high capacity clips. And said you just have two of those things. Dumb politicians. So Bushmaster took all the cosmetic differences off and just kept one thing: the ability to use a high capacity clip. And they took off and the other manufactureres played catch up. Oh what brand did the killer in Conn. use? Bushmaster. F*#kers.
The desire to have access to high capacity mags and armor piercing bullets is greatly outweighed by having them around and getting in the wrong hands and killing innocent people.
Another disgusting thing, the NRA got some asswipe congressman (guess which party?) to attach riders to bills outlawing the release of information from the ATF and CDC on what guns are used in what crimes. We have an epidemic of gun violence but we can't even know the facts because the gun industry is afraid it will hurt sales, or lead to bans of things that make them money. Despicable.
Guns aren't the only thing we need to look at. We should take an all of the above strategy to reducing this type of violence. But in Conn. multiple people tried to stop the killer and were killed, he shot everyone multiple times to make sure they were dead, and as soon as the cops showed up the killer committed suicide. So it's extremely likely that the high capacity clips the killer used meant more children died than would have if he didnd't have these clips. Again: Is it really so important to have high capcity weapons if it means more children die?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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You better hope it was legal to make straw purchases from federally licensed dealer in 1979. I doubt it.
I don't have to prove anything. I'm not stupid enough to make a purchase like that and blab about it.
It's a difficult law to enforce, unless you confess.
You confessed.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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THE reason I bought it for him was that he DIDNT have the funds nor the experience as ive already explained.
Too much noise in this thread for me to find where you explained it that way, perhaps you've more time to look. What you originally said was you bought a gun for someone who couldn't buy one himself, our misinterpretation is more than understandable.
Either way, you bought a gun for someone with the full knowledge that he intended to break the laws of another country with it. Legally (not morally) how is that different to those who bought guns in the USA to provide to the IRA?
Remember, it's not you I'm criticizing here, its the lack of laws.
What I'm amazed hasn't happened yet is some terrorist cell coming over here, visit a bunch of gun shows, then all get together at some large public gathering... You do the math as to what ten well-armed people could do. You think that would change people's minds about how trivially easy it is to buy guns here?
TE
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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I'm not trying to convict you Ron. Just giving you a heads up. Better hope interested authorities don't care now either.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 20, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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The statute of limitations is clearly over for a non-violent crime if such a thing even did happen in 1979...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 20, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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...All of the school shootings are by white 16-28 year old males who all seem to be victims of some sort of bullying early in life. That's why they come back and act out on schools...
But there are MANY more 16-28 yr old males who get bullied and don't mow down a bunch of innocents. Difficult problem to contend with. :/
Oh, and my understanding is that the panel put together is composed of people who have met many times on this topic. So who knows, something may come of it. Or maybe not. But it is not like a panel of total strangers are meeting on this topic for the first time ever. Time will tell how effective it will be...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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Memorial for Emilie Parker tonight at Ben Lomand HS in Ogden, Utah.
There will likely be thousands in attendance.
Both parents were graduates.
Jello, you spend any time there?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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The fact that Obama wants reforms NOW as he said in his speech doesnt allude to logic, but rather knee jerks.
Obama has long proven himself not to be a kneejerk reactor, but needs to act while the public will for change is alive.
Look for assault weapons ban, big clip ban, and closing the gun show background check loophhole (maybe people could get pre-approved for buying at gun shows) Plus some mental health access reforms
None of that is so threatening. Who knows if it will do any good though.
peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 20, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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So Ron, from your last post I can see that you wish we all would just drop this thing that you brought up in the first place.
Just a question if you would
You say your friend had a Green Card and his buying and owning a gun was completely legal.
So then why could he not just go and buy a gun himself?
Why would you buy it and then give it to him?
I just don't get why he needed or asked you to do it.
thanks, just curious
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Dec 20, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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I got an earful from a friend from here for suggesting this, but;
Google - Operation Open Eyes
McVeigh was a sleeper, he had to be isolated and put down. Jonestown, Waco, Colombine, and others were too. Still going on.
Your welcome Klimmer. Here's some help...
http://www.rumormillnews.com/operation.htm
part 2 gets creepier than the first part.
And then this re: Colombine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOCVZqVG27w
Have a nice day!
This sounds like an authoritative post, with links (first one goes back to a kooky, but authentic-looking "Rumormill" website run by Gunther Russbacher and/or his even flakier wife Rayelan Allen, who have been very, very busy, so that yes, google "operation open eyes" and there is page after page of blather all penned by, or inspired by, the same one or two people). The Columbine video is over an hour long, no way am I plowing through all that.
Anyway, the trouble with posting this stuff is that out here in laptop-land, out of the thousands of people reading and digesting these conspiracy theories are there are people who are really struggling with life, friends, self-esteem, depression, unemployment. maybe one person whose life is at a tipping point.
Given some compassion, encouragement from his friends, relatives, a bit of help or even left alone, he will do okay. But, provoked into thinking that his personal problems stem from some outside, malevolent force, he might be pushed into a much darker place.
If this were Iraq or Afghanistan, he might hear a slightly different version of bluering's story (the central idea, of some evil, omnipotent, and not-very-well described threat to his way of life would be the same) and be pushed, eventually, into becoming a suicide bomber.
Here in the US, he might becomes a gun-murderer-suicide.
Tp push these conspiracy theories, knowing that somewhere out there is a (admittedly very tiny) number of young men who have the capacity to act on them is either to be naive or murderous. Not far, in bad intent, from the infamous example of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater.
These events provoke argument about gun restrictions which creates more sense of victimhood among certain young, white men (no one on this website, for sure); they lash back, provoking gun-haters to lash back still more loudly. An endless and pointless cycle.
The wisest posts in this thread have come from t*r and lilabiene, who, in different ways understand that a more positive response is to sidestep this argument. And MIchelle.... :-).
Exercise a bit more compassion towards friends and coworkers (yeah, and fellow climbers, too). Step away from the keyboard, go visit a friend.
As Roadie wrote in another thread, "we don't have to like each other, burt we do have to love each other."
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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OK, cut Ron some slack. (Did I really say that?). Explanation above doesn't contradict his original statement, it's either true, or a good recovery from admitting a felony online.
TE
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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sole purpose of killing people
Hmmmm... if that were true there would be a few hundred thousand dead people this year. Looking at recent civilian sales over the past 5 years and not seeing any statistical leap in killings... that premise is wrong.
I know that scary looking black-colored rifles with scary big magazines and even scarier looking pointy things on them frighten you.
I get it.
But after using AR-type "Assault rifles" for 2 decades or so.... I haven't killed anyone, nor has anyone I've known in a civilian situation. They are used in a sport every day by thousands of people without any ill intent. Because you are not part of that world, I can assure you that such competitions never turn into bloodbaths.
Stop the hysteria already.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
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Which part of the twenty dead children is hysteria?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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I thought it was 23, and 3 adults... plus the victims of the less recent shootings that the number 2 heads have forgotten about.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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Speaking of effective, making something merely illegal is not likely to be effective, an effective law should frustrate the act. A cop was killed here in suburban Philly a few months ago by a gun acquired through a straw purchaser.
Probably the guy that Ron bought......
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Almost unbelievable. I expected way more from these people. Blood money indeed.
DMT
did SNR screw up? absolutely...
but blood money? really? amazing stretch there.
this is the problem with reasoned debate, it is so easy to throw ones prejudices around that reason goes out the door.
blood money indeed....
edit:
Next time you and your fun loving buddies go to the target range with your AR-15s be sure to wash your hands in blood afterwards.
DMT
so now everyone who shoots targets is guilty of murder. by default you are a murderer since your tax $ killed all those in iraq....you must feel really good about that.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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He was headed to SA which at that time was smack in the middle of genocides and killings of educated blacks. He and his family were all targeted due to their educations and used aliases much of the time to survive. I had Saieso on my USFS crew that year, and we became good friends - so i LEGALLY helped my good friend in his quest to bring a better life back to his people and he couldnt do that if he was killed on the way home from the airport. He was never a gun fanatic or anything of the like, yet knew he had better arm himself for the trip back. I spent half the summer teaching him shooting, proper safety and gun handling. He gave me a tribal blessing and honorary title for my efforts which were a very cool thing..
So, Ron, you CONSPIRED to ILLEGALLY export a firearm into South Africa. I don't know, but I'd imagine that both countries have laws and concerns about people transporting weapons across international borders.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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sole purpose of killing people
Yes, that is exactly what they were created to do.
Just as you can pound nails with a screwdriver, and I suppose that you can claim that it was designed as a nail pounder.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 20, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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i am glad to see you realize that your logic is flawed and beyond reason.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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Next time you and your fun loving buddies go to the target range with your AR-15s be sure to wash your hands in blood afterwards.
Please seek help....
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:18pm PT
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I want to tell someone to go f*#k themselves, godf*#kingdamnit...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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AR-15, Bushmaster, whatever...
I don't like that type of gun and won't buy one. But considering how much more of a threat a Remington 700 is under most circumstances (i.e. being shot from any distance,) or an S&W 38 is (concealability) I'm not too concerned if my sane neighbor owns one.
The bushmaster rifle was way more gun than the Connecticut shooter needed. He was in the same room as his victims. Assuming he prioritized his targets he could have done the whole thing with a revolver (yeah I know a bunch of folks are going to disagree, but I'm well practiced with a 7 shot 357 and quite certain I am right.)
Where I could agree with the anti AR-15 folks is that this type of gun may have emboldened the shooter (I refuse to write his name.) It looks like the guns we see glorified in violent "entertainment", the guns portrayed in 1st person shooter games and the weapons our military uses. Quite simply, if all he had access to was a revolver he may not have made the choices he did (or he may have, no way we'll ever know.) Perhaps the answer depends upon to what degree this atrocity was play acting, role playing.
Another thing I wonder about, could it be that some of these mass killers are simply suicidal, but do not have the capacity to do the deed until they paint themselves into a corner first?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
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get a grip folks
you've all been mostly venting your personal feelings and opinions about a topic that has long been nurtured by the media as one of the key rifts of dissension fracturing our society
i.e. divide and conquer
some here will be quick to tell you that only the controlled media can be trusted
how many of you think you can actually trust what you read in the controlled media?
at best they can't seem to spin a straight story
and there are obvious political agendas being worked hard out of this incident
some here seem to be working hard to control your thinking to align with those political agendas
some alternative media sources researching this incident are saying some rather strange things about it
obviously there are alternative views about whether the controlled media is reporting what really happened
so who do you trust to tell you the truth?
have any of you taken the trouble to set aside your differences and look into the facts on the ground and research what really happened at that school?
have you even considered the degree to which you are perhaps being manipulated for political agendas?
the discussion on this incident is really generating more heat than light...
unlike Anastasia's 'Boobs' thread, which is doing fine on both counts
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:43pm PT
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WTF Ksolem. 20 kids, 3 - 11 bullets per kid. Do the math. Are you really, with a perfectly straight face, going to tell us you could have done that [sic] with a revolver?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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have you even considered the degree to which you are perhaps being manipulated for political agendas?
I think about it all the time. I've decided it's everyone else who are being manipulated..;-)
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jstan
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
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You have only to read the many intemperate posts on internet fora to realize people are having trouble these days. It is not limited to newly post pubescent individuals. The phenomenon is so pervasive you can explain almost any behavior and still stay well within three sigma.
Edit: On second thought the above post is intemperate. I think six sigma is a better estimate.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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WTF Ksolem. 20 kids, 3 - 11 bullets per kid. Do the math. Are you really, with a perfectly straight face, going to tell us you could have done that [sic] with a revolver?
Bob, please take my entire post in context. I know he riddled the kids with bullets. He did not need to do that to achieve the same end result. Can you not see that I am asking a question about these AR style guns, do they embolden these killers?
I personally do not want to own AR type guns because they put people off. I'm a bit old school and I have found that if I'm out in the country with a well finished traditional looking gun folks don't blink an eye, but if my buddy has a military style gun folks get nervous. And my nice looking rifle is way more powerful.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED IN AUSTRALIA WHEN THEY HAD A MASS SHOOTING, AND HAD A CALL-IN FOR AUTOMATIC WEAPONS:
"On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.
Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.
At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.
What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since."
SO, SEEMS TO ME WE COULD DO SOMETHING SIMILAR
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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That's why there were so few wounded, KS. It was because he could easily put 3 to 11 bullets into each victim. Gun type matters.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
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Monolith, this will be my last post on this thread, because the act of violence against these children makes me sick and I do not enjoy the discussion. I've just tried to make a few simple points here.
A person with a revolver who was intent on killing those children could and almost certainly would have been able to do so.
Yes the Bushmaster made it "easy" for the guy to go berserk.
My question about this whole thing, which seems to have been overshadowed by my point that it could have been done with much a lesser gun, is does the military style of weapon become a part of a role playing scenario in a killing like this?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
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What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since."
How many times to we have to tolerate contributions from the "Reality based" nutcases???!!!
I can imagine having an argument that being free to own guns is worth tolerating more deaths every year and a mass killing now and then. I'd make that argument for cars myself.
But there's a lot of denial that gun control might help, and I don't buy that
Peace
Karl
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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Anderson said he could do the same with any hunting rifle, now KS says he could do it with a revolver.
Simply not true. He had 3 guns. He chose to use the Bushmaster for a reason.
Why make it so easy?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
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He chose the Bushmater for a reason.
Even a f*#king nutjob knows which tool to pick for that job
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
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Did I say all carbine configurations?
And yeah, it does matter how many clips you need. Give the kids whatever edge you can.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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How far can a kid run in 2.5 seconds?
Can a kid dart around a corner in 2.5 seconds?
How about 10 kids darting in different directions in 2.5 seconds?
He could screw up in any of those clip changes as well.
BTW, CA bans detachable magazine in combo with other features. The 'bullet button' gets around that but still adds more seconds and more possibility of screw-up. Likely the 'bullet button' will be banned as well.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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I see, Ron. So you admit that you are an international illegal gunrunner.
Ok.
“Why would a woman who had a son like this, who clearly had serious issues, keep assault rifles in the house and teach him how to shoot them?”
But of course, your response is that she did nothing illegal, Ron.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
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Tom: get a grip folks
You're right someone needs to, you've obviously lost yours.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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Bruce, Blahring should be chiming in anytime and should be able to take care of that one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 20, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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Even a brief perusal of Crimpie's wiki link for state gun laws shows there is next to no effect oversight, regulation, or management of weapons in the U.S.
A couple of states have a few half-hearted and half-ass attempts at restrictions and in the rest the NRA has basically worked to insure there is next to no oversight at all.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
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Sucked back in oh well...
Did you or did you not notice the post at the top of the page by Aspendoughy?
Yes.
Did you see my posts up-thread documenting a nearly equal drop in the rate of gun murders in the US from 1998 to 2010? Our rate is down by more than one half in 20 years.
Yes our murder rate is higher than Australia, it always has been, but it is shrinking at about the same rate.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 20, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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#RonAnderson: It's gotta be work typing with one hand and jacking off with the other.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Dec 20, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
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#RonAnderson: It's gotta be work typing with one hand and jacking off with the other.
you seem to do that and balance a glass of whiskey all at the same time? talented you must be....
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lubbockclimber
Trad climber
lubbock,tx
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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Fuk gun control. If we outlaw guns only outlaws will have em.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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gun fatalities are rising again after a low point in 2000
Not by rate.
There is a difference between the overall # of deaths and the rate. For example if the population increases by x percent but the gun deaths increase by .75x the rate has decreased. Take a look at gunpolicy.org (not a pro gun site by any means, but I think a fair one.) FWIW I'm not looking at suicides. Tragic as they may be, if someone wants to off them self I think that is their own business and should not be a consideration in the gun control debate.
FWIW I am not against "reasonable" gun control. I would suggest that part of the problem is that we already have very poorly thought out and essentially unreasonable laws. By that I mean that our gun control laws are unnecessarily complicated and not well based on fact. For example, as I speculated earlier, if military style weapons are an attractant to young men like the monster in CT., and this can be demonstrated, then I say ban them all. The rest of us normal folks can have an equal but less cool looking gun to fend off the bad guys or punch holes in paper..
DMT, I read and appreciate your post, and you are asking good questions. I said earlier that I am done with this thread but I keep coming back...:-(
My response to your question will take more time than I have now (gotta have food ready for the Barbara in a bit here...) Depending on the tack this thread takes you will see my response here tomorrow or I'll use a PM. I think you are at a crux of the whole issue and I don't want to go off half cocked, so to speak...
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jstan
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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You can stop honest american gun owners from owning and honest american gun manufacturers and still have a glut of guns coming in from fifteen other countries on any give day.
I don't remember the statistics, but I have heard reports that the majority of the guns coming across our border, came originally from the US.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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Some people eh... Exuding class...
Adequate to the occasion.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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Some people eh... Exuding class...
nice move, Ron
how about your signature line: "soon to be a nipple sucking liberal"
yeah, you are a real class act
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John M
climber
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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Could those who are attacking Ron please let it go. He explained that he and his friend filled out all of the paperwork that was necessary at the time. If your point is that that should be illegal, then fine, make that point. But please.. enough with the personal attacks.
This was a terrible thing that happened. Though the numbers of mass killings by statistics has supposedly not changed, it certainly seems different with kids taking it to schools.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
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It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent. Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns! While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear our president, governors or other politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 20, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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You Americans have almost more illegal aliens than Canada has Canadians.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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China is begging you to give up your firearms.
Japan didn't consider invading mainland USA when 'there was a rifle behind every blade of grass'
Hitler didn't consider invading Switzerland for the same reason.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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China is begging you to give up your firearms.
Like we're going to have a war with China.
"Mr. Chinese ambassador, here is a declaration of war! Oh, and here's an order for steel so we can build some tanks to attack you with. One more thing, could you send over somebody who knows how to make steel. We got rid of all our steelworkers."
But getting back on topic:
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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You are right Gary. You are socially engineered with China that they can't even dump your dollar, it would be mutually destructive.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
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Yeah Bruce, I know a bunch of them from when I was living down there.
What I really feel about the topic is that society as a whole. is a result of the last generation's parenting. If economic times are tough, both parents have to work, and parenting isn't as good when both parents have to work full time.
This gun violence could slow down if all parents put a big emphasis on teaching their kids differently, either to imprint in their brains that guns are tools and how to use them so that when they get emotional and mad, they don't react like you would with TV and video game imprinting.
This happened in a way with smoking, it was no longer done as much, and the next generation didn't grow up idolizing a person smoking, didn't end up smoking themselves.
Given your changes in demographics/education/economics, I'm not sure you can get this number lower than it has been in the past 30 years. And I know you can not get the media to change how they work either. The government will make laws, that is what they do, and they do it well. Social issues are much more complex, and may or may not be affected by rules any particular administration may make during the next generation's child-raising decades.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.
The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent. Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns! While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.
There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.
You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear our president, governors or other politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Ha! The dentist shoots back (and drills it!)
Violence Prevention Research Program
Nice name.
I wonder how much research they are doing that isn't about manipulating statistics in order to support gun prohibition.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
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I wonder if they talked about "crossbow violence" in the middle ages.... Must have...
"If we only can get rid of all the crossbows" Nobody needs a crossbow. With crossbows banned, we can all finally establish a lasting universal peace.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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Japan didn't consider invading mainland USA when 'there was a rifle behind every blade of grass'
Really? Breathtaking.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Well, I think people should be able to own crossbows if they pass a background check.
We dunk them and if they don't drown they must be witches so they can't have a crossbow.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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Crossbows were banned from time to time in medieval times.
The pope banned their use used against fellow christians. Okay to use them against Muslims.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
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But the suspected witches all drowned. so no need for crossbows
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
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But there was also someone who knew how to use it behind every rifle. No use having lots of guns if the population doesn't know how to use them properly.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 20, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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Crossbows were banned from time to time in medieval times.
That must've worked REAL well.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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Thanks. I was just going to ask for a cite on the Australian crime statistics posted by Tooth.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
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But the suspected witches all drowned. so no need for crossbows
No, the witches didn't drown. Witches are made of wood, so if you didn't float, you were not made of wood, and were therefor not a witch. Which means if you drowned, you were innocent and your good name cleared.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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Japan didn't consider invading mainland USA when 'there was a rifle behind every blade of grass'
That was the quoted reasoning for Japan's reluctance to invade us, just after they 'raped' the Chinese mainland. No wonder that the Chiners remember their history and use it against us in their current rhetoric.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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Right now it's colder than a Witches tit!
EDIT: People from China are Chinese not Chiners.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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This happened in a way with smoking, it was no longer done as much, and the next generation didn't grow up idolizing a person smoking, didn't end up smoking themselves.
My understanding is that parents had little to do with this. Instead, schools and media were responsible. Schools taught kids about the horrors of smoking. And littering was greatly reduced the same way (remember the crying Indian?). Either way, improvements in quality in life of all.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 20, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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let's see...which of the world's problems deserve so much creative discussion??
economic instability and imbalance?
national debt vs tax increases and gov services cut?
bought and payed for congress?
runaway population increases?
wars of imperialism?
global warming?
solar storms?
air pollution?
surface water/acquifer pollution?
ocean contamination?
soil pollution?
automobile deaths?
runaway black market in drugs?
runaway black market in weapons?
uncontrolled high level radiation releases?
increasing cancer rates?
global starvation increases?
widespread soil depletion on factory farms?
pesticide contamination of the food supply and world ecosystems?
chronic increases in diseases with no known cause (i.e. induced by chemical/pharmacological/radiation)
massive biological die-offs of birds, fish, cetaceans, giant squid
over-bolting classic routes?
no worries...with the wise guidance of the elders on ST, our government has it all under control...
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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News flash teageetea it was all your socially conscious compassionate conservatives who gutted funding for social services and mental health programs. I guess they thought it was evil socialism.
-------------------------------------------------------
Last Monday driving to a job in Denver I switched the radio from an NPR story I'd already heard to an AM channel. Hoping to get a little Bronco Football news I instead got Rush Limbaugh just in time to hear him refer to the death toll in Newton as "Chump Change". Out of the mouth of the narcissistic bloviating drug addled hypocrite direct to my ears. I almost swerved off the freeway in disbelief. How can this lying sociopath still be on the air? It is time to turn off his microphone. He is the chump that needs to be changed. I urge everyone to boycott all his sponsors.
Send them a message and tell them why.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boycott-Rush-Limbaughs-Sponsors-to-SHUT-HIM-DOWN/253645602134?ref=stream
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:07am PT
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I don't think Tennessee will be leading the nation in anything other than poor dental hygiene
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:10am PT
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And perhaps inbreeding experiments.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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The T-Wall rocks!!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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“With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.”
"Gun free zone"
=
"Helpless victim zone"
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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I might have to agree with you on this one Wendell, teachers properly trained and voluntarily armed might be a temporary solution, but is not the final solution. Not sure how a teacher can keep a side arm handy while teaching. Even at home it is not safe to store a weapon so that it is available on a moments notice. A loaded pistol on the nightstand/teachers desk is a bad idea.
I have heard that there were 2 or 3 armed witnesses at the Giffords shooting, none able to do any good.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Really? It's a crime to punish your children? Or did you mean it's a crime to BEAT your children? Do you have childen Ron? Have you ever struck them?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:52am PT
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Regardless of the crime element, the fact that kids get drugged instead of reprimanded has changed this next generation.
It is interesting to throw rumors out there and see sides pick quotes and go with it. (Australia) This really isn't much of a think tank here, just throwing quotes at each other like bullets eh?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:52am PT
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Please oh please don't let Rong be a breeder.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:09am PT
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I think they were speaking about the US. jghedge, there are more differences between Canada and the US than you could imagine - comparing the US to a country in Europe isn't much of a valid argument.
Comparing the US to the US results in a credible argument. I thought I had made that point with the Australia quote.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:42am PT
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Could those who are attacking Ron please let it go. He explained that he and his friend filled out all of the paperwork that was necessary at the time. If your point is that that should be illegal, then fine, make that point. But please.. enough with the personal attacks.
You apparently don't quite understand. Ron, and others, claim that there are all sorts of safeguards against people prohibited from buying guns, from buying them.
Then Ron gives an example of his involvement in a scheme to contravene the law against crossing international borders with guns....demonstrating just how easy he found it to do. He had a reason. EVERYONE has a reason. As long as it is doable, people will have reasons, and it will be done.
Of course, that is part of the NRA strategy: have a patchwork of laws, so who cares what the purchase law is in NY: go to NJ and buy, then take home. That is the reason to fight federal laws like crazy, a patchwork makes them useless.
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John M
climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:14am PT
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at this point im simply convinced your a racist prick for me helping an African man Ken.. And you WONT let that stupid sh#t go for anything will ya.. Your like the gnat at the picnic that just wont stop buzzing the punch bowl.. I got news for ya,, all manner of Fed and State LEOs have heard that story,, not one arrested me ,, duhhhhhhhh. It must be a conspiracy huh! Ive CHALLENGED YOU about this to produce the law i broke in 1979 and you havent because there isnt one---- Now piss off once, final and for all muther Feckin time.
Ron.. that isn't his point, though at times it has sounded that way. That was what I was trying to clear up. Instead of attacking each other, try instead to understand each others point.
What you appear to me to be saying is that you did not break any laws.
What I think Ken appears to me to be saying is that your case is proof that the laws are too lax. I have no idea if the laws are too lax in your case, but I believe Ken's main point is that because there is no single set of laws, its fairly easy to work around them. Perhaps I am wrong. If I am, I apologize. But could y'all try talking to each other, rather then blustering? Please.
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckadia
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:30am PT
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in response to TomCochrane's link from a few posts back:
your source is presstv!
from wikipedia: "Press TV is a 24-hour English language news network owned by the state-owned media corporation Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB)."
that someone is taking a piece with no substantiated info in it, seriously, for anything more than a moment, when that info is from the state owned media of a country whose headpiece has denied the holocaust, or that gay people exist in his country, is unbelievable.
even without iran owned media as the source it's complete and total unsubstantiated innuendo, hearsay, and baseless extrapolation.
wow... just... wow.
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John M
climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:31am PT
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That is because he is talking at you instead of to you.
And you are doing the same thing.
We all do it. At some point we have to figure out how to stop.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:33am PT
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Hey, there you are Ron. Been bass fishing lately? Catch anything?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:36am PT
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thanks
post withdrawn
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:42am PT
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seems there are MANY links saying the same thing
Really Ron... MANY... really? Post 3 links.
And wow, those are some crazy rumors about the bass up here in Tahoe. You're the first I've heard mention such things. I take it you've seen this happen? How many have you had jump in your boat... it has got to be at least MANY?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:49am PT
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John, that is my main point.
But Ron went out of his way to give a very specific example that is very troubling to me.
Inasmuch as Ron asks, when I look at any airline website, it says:
"Firearms are not allowed on any international flights even if checked."
I don't imagine that started in 2012. If it was legal in 1979, please so enlighten us, Ron. It certainly would be illegal today.
you've clearly stated that you purchased the weapon with the intent of colluding with your buddy to get the gun smuggled into another country.
That's conspiracy to break a law, isn't it, Mr. LEO?
THAT would certainly be illegal today, as well.
Your mentioning to other LEO's and having it ignored is rather hilarious, Ron. Anyone who doesn't know that LEO's give each other passes on all sorts of lawbreaking is delusional.
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:50am PT
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A conservative case for an assault weapons ban
By Larry Alan Burns
December 20, 2012
Last month, I sentenced Jared Lee Loughner to seven consecutive life terms plus 140 years in federal prison for his shooting rampage in Tucson. That tragedy left six people dead, more than twice that number injured and a community shaken to its core.
Loughner deserved his punishment. But during the sentencing, I also questioned the social utility of high-capacity magazines like the one that fed his Glock. And I lamented the expiration of the federal assault weapons ban in 2004, which prohibited the manufacture and importation of certain particularly deadly guns, as well as magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
The ban wasn't all that stringent — if you already owned a banned gun or high-capacity magazine you could keep it, and you could sell it to someone else — but at least it was something.
And it says something that half of the nation's deadliest shootings occurred after the ban expired, including the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn. It also says something that it has not even been two years since Loughner's rampage, and already six mass shootings have been deadlier.
I am not a social scientist, and I know that very smart ones are divided on what to do about gun violence. But reasonable, good-faith debates have boundaries, and in the debate about guns, a high-capacity magazine has always seemed to me beyond them.
Bystanders got to Loughner and subdued him only after he emptied one 31-round magazine and was trying to load another. Adam Lanza, the Newtown shooter, chose as his primary weapon a semiautomatic rifle with 30-round magazines. And we don't even bother to call the 100-rounder that James Holmes is accused of emptying in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater a magazine — it is a drum. How is this not an argument for regulating the number of rounds a gun can fire?
I get it. Someone bent on mass murder who has only a 10-round magazine or revolvers at his disposal probably is not going to abandon his plan and instead try to talk his problems out. But we might be able to take the "mass" out of "mass shooting," or at least make the perpetrator's job a bit harder.
To guarantee that there would never be another Tucson or Sandy Hook, we would probably have to make it a capital offense to so much as look at a gun. And that would create serious 2nd Amendment, 8th Amendment and logistical problems.
So what's the alternative? Bring back the assault weapons ban, and bring it back with some teeth this time. Ban the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer and possession of both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Don't let people who already have them keep them. Don't let ones that have already been manufactured stay on the market. I don't care whether it's called gun control or a gun ban. I'm for it.
I say all of this as a gun owner. I say it as a conservative who was appointed to the federal bench by a Republican president. I say it as someone who prefers Fox News to MSNBC, and National Review Online to the Daily Kos. I say it as someone who thinks the Supreme Court got it right in District of Columbia vs. Heller, when it held that the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to possess guns for self-defense. (That's why I have mine.) I say it as someone who, generally speaking, is not a big fan of the regulatory state.
I even say it as someone whose feelings about the NRA mirror the left's feelings about Planned Parenthood: It has a useful advocacy function in our deliberative democracy, and much of what it does should not be controversial at all.
And I say it, finally, mindful of the arguments on the other side, at least as I understand them: that a high-capacity magazine is not that different from multiple smaller-capacity magazines; and that if we ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines one day, there's a danger we would ban guns altogether the next, and your life might depend on you having one.
But if we can't find a way to draw sensible lines with guns that balance individual rights and the public interest, we may as well call the American experiment in democracy a failure.
There is just no reason civilians need to own assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Gun enthusiasts can still have their venison chili, shoot for sport and competition, and make a home invader flee for his life without pretending they are a part of the SEAL team that took out Osama bin Laden.
It speaks horribly of the public discourse in this country that talking about gun reform in the wake of a mass shooting is regarded as inappropriate or as politicizing the tragedy. But such a conversation is political only to those who are ideologically predisposed to see regulation of any kind as the creep of tyranny. And it is inappropriate only to those delusional enough to believe it would disrespect the victims of gun violence to do anything other than sit around and mourn their passing. Mourning is important, but so is decisive action.
Congress must reinstate and toughen the ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.
Larry Alan Burns is a federal district judge in San Diego.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-burns-assault-weapons-ban-20121220,0,6774314.story
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:55am PT
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Guess I'm not as lucky as you are. No jumping fish... and no MANY articles saying the same thing. But I believe you man. And don't worry, I'll get the message out...
"A friend of mine was in this forum and there is this guy who has guns... like a lot of guns... and he's a total animal stuffer too... anyway, he thinks the attack in CT was an Israeli terrorist attack. I know it sounds crazy, but there are MANY articles that say the same thing... you can find them on google. So, you know, you just never know. When I tell really smart people who have spent their lives understanding the intricacies of Middle East politics, they look at me like 'really?' I mean, THEY don't even know this kind of stuff is going on. And get this... it was all planned by Obama and TRPA."
http://vimeo.com/3528602
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John M
climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:39am PT
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Then Ron gives an example of his involvement in a scheme to contravene the law against crossing international borders with guns....demonstrating just how easy he found it to do.
Sorry Ken, he did not do that. You read what you wanted to read, and even if he posted that, he tried to clear it up multiple times. He followed all of the laws. And yes.. you can carry a gun in a checked bag. As long as it is in a locked case and unloaded.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 21, 2012 - 06:57am PT
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How many dead children does it take to get a gun nutter to STFU?
Apparently more.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:53am PT
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Judge Burns may have lost his perspective having been involved in such a high profile case and being subject to public outrage.
The gun owners who would compromise away eroded segments of our freedoms may be the worst enemies of the Second Amendment.
Philo, did you answer my question between redundant rants?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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The one about Jorge? Yes I did on thr 2nd amendment thread.
Now back to the boobs
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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2nd amendment doesn't say sh#t about high capacity magazines capable of pumping children full of dozens of bullets.
I'm sure it did originally, but you know, Israel conspired with TRPA to get it taken out so Obama could take over Uhmerikuh and impose Sharia law, thus initiating the apocalypse and heralding the second coming of Jesus Christ... the fag hating savior who spent most of his time hanging out with 12 single dudes.
Hurray for religion! Where people believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts... heaven must be kind of like Nevada.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 21, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD)
Let's go back to the good ol' days of the Cold War.
Then we can start escalating to make sure mine is always bigger than yours.
The NRA would love that. They try to make the case that private individuals armed to the teeth is what preserves freedom and liberty. I don't buy it anymore. This is an argument put forth by self-serving arms manufacturers.
If the price of some of our liberties is parents burying their innocent children, I say the price is too high.
I don't have a problem with people hunting or protecting themselves, but we have start drawing the line in a different place.
It is just too easy for someone who is mentally disturbed to obtain the means to destroy other people's lives. The more guns there are available that facilitate mass killings, the more mass killings there will probably be. I don't beleive that someone mentally ill enough to murder innocent strangers is that concerned about whether they are armed or not.
I'm sorry if this infringes on some people's recreation, but it is time for some hard decisions.
We can either become a society that uses the threat of violence to prevent violence, or a society that moves away from violence. I submit the latter takes more real courage and conviction, and is a better place.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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The rednecks with guns are just all psyched up after pastor dikwads sunday sermon
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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Wurd up StahlBro. Well said.
The logical conclusion of the NRA's mentality would be to have a Bushmaster (or more) in the hands of every teacher. Knives over fists, handguns over knifes, semi-auto assault rifles over handguns... soon we will have missile defense systems around every school. USA USA USA USA!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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GUNS ARE FUNNY!!!
Anyone and everyone should be able to own any and every gun they see fit. No insurance, no mental health evaluation, no safety inspection or requirements, no silly government intervention to make sure someone's recreational activities don't threaten the safety and life of those around them. Yeeefukinhaw!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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So locker, what makes "us" the "greatest"?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
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We are number in arms sales...f*#k yeah America.
We fallen behind in so many other things.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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We had a wealth of fertile land, now mostly destroyed, which allowed our population to EXPLODE. This had a direct impact on our WWI victory.
We had ample hydropower resources, developed through Federal funding during the Great Depression. This was DIRECTLY responsible for our success in developing nukes and the reason we won WWII.
Note, we seem to be out of easily exploited natural resources and apparently have no interest in developing our intelligence. So we have begun selling our souls to corporations... turns out they aren't worth much.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
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Locker, the Russel Brand clip is Hilarius, thanks'
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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Well I agree with that much, mechrist.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Maybe his bullets are tax deductable
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treeman
climber
mule city
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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4 shot dead this am at a church in Pennsylvania
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 21, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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End of the world dissapointment?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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Why should we have high capacity mags and guns? Because the cartels have them, the gangs have them and the govt has them.
Holy fuking sh#t, you actually think that is relevant... don't you? You actually think you are in an arms race of sorts with the cartels, the gangs, and the govt? You think that, within a lifetime, the US is going to collapse into some sort of post-apocalyptic Mad Max free for all... that you are going to have to defend your puny shack against the forces of evil. And if you don't have high capacity mags and guns you won't stand a chance. But what if the aliens and zombies are immune to our bullets?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Ron doesn't read... or think much for that matter... he just knows that what he feels is true. I'm surprised he's not more religious.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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teach your children well
crosby stills and nash
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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Who here BELIEVES that their minds
Locker, unfortunately you can't make ignorant people non-ignorant. There isn't a switch that you can turn on.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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"Had it not been for a few of those, and ones i got from my parents, i just might have turned out to make Charlie Manson look like a choir boy.."..."
yes, beating kids is a sure way to keep them from becoming killers.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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OK. What's an acceptable loss rate, for starters?
No loss is acceptable, unless you're on the far, far, left.
Then, any population loss is a benefit to our hurting planet.
That was me being cynical, sorry.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
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Ron: Our mass murder was a mexican natl with an illegal chinese AK 47. try defending your self with a six shot revolver against that.
So what you are saying is that all those rednecks in IHOP with there guns are worthless.
That's confusing because you had me convinced that everyone carrying their own hand gun was the only way we were going to be safe. But clearly that won't do it. As Jeebus pointed out, we all need to eat breakfast with an AK... one finger on the fork and one on the trigger. Clearly the govt would have to step in and start regulating the "free refills on coffee" policy... ain't nothing in the constitution about that.
edit: all the kids I knew who got beat on a regular basis by teachers, parents, or other authority figures are in jail... 4 out of 10 of the kids I grew up with in my neighborhood.
Of course all 10 of my aunts were beaten by my very religious grandpa. The most severe beatings were reserved for the oldest. My mom (5th child) was only knocked unconscious a couple times... that she can remember... that will teach her to drop the butter. But none of them ever went to jail... most of them married a good, upstanding, wife-beating, kid-beating, gun loving redneck and popped out 5-10 kids of their own. Funny how similar conservatives are, regardless of religion.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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I got paddled with one of those fuking boards with HOLES in them wayyyyyyyy more than once...
My folks had one of those. And there was absolutely no connection to its mysterious disappearance and the fact that we had a coal burning stove down in the basement.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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This plan to put armed guards in all schools in America is a good one. We'll have to divert money from already strapped school budgets to do it since the same people advocating for this are opposed to tax hikes of any kind. Then, since schools will now be scary targets for mentally deranged people clearly capable of making sound, rational decisions, we will need to put armed guards at churches, shopping malls, movie theaters and anywhere else more than 10 people are gathered at time. AMUUUUUURICAAAAA
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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Ron, you think that behavior is due to the lack of beatings? Does that mean African Americans behaving badly is due to lack of lynchings... something else done regularly in the 1960's when "they" misbehaved?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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Ron said locker,, NO WAY in HELL would you have ever seen a classroom like the one above, in the 60s...
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers
Attributed to Socrates
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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and..... DONE.
The sickness and ignorance of the few has gotten to me. Continued participation seems as absurd as arming our waitresses and teachers. Armed guards and spankings... cuz that's how Jesus would do it... god bless Uhmerikuh.
Peas out to the good folks here.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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Cosmic deserves a spanking vis a vis a reach-around...RJ
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 21, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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N.R.A. Calls for Armed Guards in Schools to Deter Violence
The group’s vice president on Friday delivered a statement and said steps other than gun control, including cracking down on criminals and fighting violence in the media, would be most effective.
http://www.nytimes.com/
The spokesanus went on to say "We want to post freedom fighters armed with automatic weapons at all schools, hospitals, courthouses, government buildings, prisons, malls, and theatres. Their job will be to shoot everyone in sight at the first sign of trouble, to prevent threats to the sacred second commandment. In some cases, they may be issued with RPGs, bazookas, and other life-affirming implements, to teach them all a lesson that they'll never forget. Pre-emptive nuclear strikes against liberal enclaves may be necessary. Real Americans live only in paranoid compounds in the hills. As for the dead children - well, god will sort them out. Some of them might have grown up to be liberals, after all. And imagine how good all this will be for the economy."
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Dec 21, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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and of course being half black means she deserves it even more...
Locker that made me laugh. Thanks for being non-bigoted and non-PC.
Oh and CUTE kid!
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 21, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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The spokesanus
lol
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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2600+ posts, and not a single logical argument against new gun control measures for assault weapons.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 21, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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and it will be another BEATING if she doesn't soon learn how to shoot a fuking GUN
so I take it that she's got a pistola in her lunch box
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
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Right on, Samuel.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Dec 21, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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2600+ posts, and not a single logical argument against new gun control measures for assault weapons.
Smaller magazines would work.
And, that Samuel Jackson quote is a fake.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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OK, then right on to whoever said it.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 21, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 21, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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DMT wrote: You're a relentless troll and I don't take any of what you 'right' seriously.
Feel better now?
Ron is not only a troll, he has to be one of the dumbest on the internet.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 21, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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There may still be time to get one of these under the tree for those you love and want to protect.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dec 21, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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Ron said Do you WONDER WHY you had those experiences? It ISNT because there were guns around. Its because young inner city kids get an education via the street. Its because urban kids get introduced to guns via video games and parking lot deals.
Hi. I'm Ron. I'm a middle aged white guy who lives in the desert and get mad when people make generalizations about middle aged white guys who live in the desert. Everything I know about "inner city kids" I learned from watching news reports about the crack epidemic from the 80's and other people's generalizations about rap music.
(P.s.- Most kids get introduced to guns via video games these days. Come out of the 60's)
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Dec 21, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
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Wayne LaPierre had an interesting comment in the LA Times today, apparently referencing the NRA Board of Directors:
"The truth is that our society is populated by an unknown number of genuine monsters, people that are so deranged, so evil, so possessed by voices and driven by demons that no sane person can ever possibly comprehend them...
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-nra-newtown-20121221,0,4915261.story
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 21, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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about the only thing I agree with him on
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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Gun sales in the 2 largest local stores for the past 5 days are the highest ever. Per day they are even higher than Black Friday (right after Obama was re-elected).
There isn't a single Bushmaster or other AR 15 type rifle to be had anywhere.
All the AR hicap clips are gone.
All the .223 ammo is sold, all 9mm, all .45acp, even .22lr supplies are scraping the barrel bottom.
It is all being bought up by people listening to and concerned over the shrill whining of the anti-gunners.
So keep it up guys. Gonna be a record year for the industry.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Dec 21, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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The First Amendment addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congress from establishing a religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition.
The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
Funny first the rights or freedom of speech then after they agreed on that they gave us the rights to own, make and buy guns. The first two things.
There is talk of Security guards protecting all schools by the Stupid NRA: Police $$$$$$$$$$$,stupid idea since they should be looking for crime not guarding or waiting for something to happen. National Guard $$$$$$$$$$, another stupid idea. How about giving teachers to arm themselves: let’s see one goes ballistic because one of her students can’t shut up or does not hand in his/her homework in time or maybe she shoots and her round misses and goes through the plaster board and kills a kid in the class next to hers.
Yes! The answer will be to hire private guards. The contractor with the lowest bid will win and hire Ex-Walmart employees, retired people in their 70’s also will hire “Back to Work off Welfare People” ; $9 an hour; they will eventually get bored because nothing happens and they caught for smoking pot. Big scandal billions of wasted dollars, so try another idea.
Cameras never work; fuzzy and lack of time to respond, plus too way expensive to buy A11M technology. I see someone is selling Bullet-proof backpacks; first no such thing it is Bullet Resistant/Resistive terminology plus it stops handguns not high power rounds shot from a high power semi-automatic rifle like the one used in the school so waste of funds and law suits concur from that manufacture by cutting cost and disregarding regulated and code because he was awarded the lowest bid which is the requirement by the FEDS. Plus the kid was shot in the head so no protection.
So all stupid ideas and give it to the stupid people to come up with stupid solutions.
OK
Just went to my local probation department this morning not for me but to hand in some papers dealing with a juvenile stealing some of my personal stuff 15 months ago; we went to trail, he gets a year’s probation and 250.00 fine which is my deductible. I replaced everything went overseas, came back insurance company pays me after months later when I get back.
So I walk in, it is fortified, had to laugh since I do risk assessments. The woman behind the window asks “Can I help you”, I say need to drop these off to one of your staff regarding going back to court to get the deductible: reason for his fine. We will go to court late Jan. of 2013.
Before she comes out I am assessing the room and see four mistakes, windows, access, lighting…… 2 minutes or less she shows up opens the door and I notice her left shoe toe against her side of the door and her hand holding the door to stop entry which was good, she relaxes I gave her the papers she requested and then I knock on the glass window just above the programmable lock. I hit and notice it is not glass but plastic [mistake assessment #5] and was so thin could of broken it easily. But I asked her what’s wrong with this, she says ???? “Knocking on the window instead of the door” I said “no” this door is the same setup how the kid got in the classrooms by shooting and opening it in from the inside. She is startled and says “Wow, you are correct”, thanked me and told she will make a note of it and will tell the appropriate people. Then told her where it should be placed.
So what will happen and is already in action for protection for children so they are safe: smaller windows to the outside of the new schools. Older schools windows will be updated with precast panels with a spray on fragmented resistive membrane to shield the appropriate height. The children will be placed further away from the windows not near them, Latches to doors will be wired for wireless automatic shutdown by a single or multiple button either by a person or by the sound of a rifle round going off.
Canada has a Sin-Tax: cigarettes and booze. Have the NRA keep their stupid ideas create a Violence Tax not an anti-violence because Americans well some actually a lot of them like Violence as for me, I am not one of them, on all rifles that are military styled. I do own various weapons depending on the conditions they are used for but find myself which has happen a few times in my past if I can't talk to him to reason or distract him then there is something wrong with me.
Booze and guns have you ever notice the prices have really never changed in the last 50 years; so double the amount on assault rifles and ammo. Half or that %0% tax is used for upgrading schools. Make sure they do not look like forts but blend in and use green products.
And that is just for schools what about violence against women and rape, pedophiles against children. Nothing no ideas just like in the battery commercial it keeps going and keeps going. Sad and we are called men, we are still animals.
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AndyO
Social climber
Brooklyn, NY
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Dec 21, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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Today man in Pa. drives around shooting people - kills 3.
Lets put a armed guard on every corner.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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Well I for one see a silver lining.
Politicians won't risk the backlash of pure prohibition. It would be political suicide not to grandfather in the existing weapons like Reagan did with Class III and Clinton did with so called "assault weapons".
I put it in quotes because it was purely based on appearance over function.
I am certain that a Mini 14 with a stack of factory 30 rounders (which are still available for cheap) could wreak equal carnage to an AR 15.
But the AR was kibosched because it looked badass.
Just like 2 decades ago, I can almost hear my stuff going up in value.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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" A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government. " George Washington
Ron, there are several ARs around this neck of the woods for purchase, seems our slow local economy is hurting all business here. I would be glad to purchase one or more for those in need, but cannot find one to suit their needs.
All legal of course.
Burly Bob
Edit to add, many a 30 round magazine and even a couple drum magazines available, from good maufacturers.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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CDNN has been busy all day. I phoned over a dozen times!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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I'll be long dead having sold my stuff for major coin.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
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He's probably got stuffed effigies of us all, up on his walls. Bagged and tagged baby.
He was known to lurk at the base of zion walls with a .22 . . .
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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Nah Dingus, just seeing the pot, hoping to make an inside straight.
If I was trolling I would explain how I could commit a mass murder with all my weapons and one shot.
All I would have to do is post a shot of them and jghedge, philo, aspendougy, dave kos, jebus, kennyt, and norton's heads would simply explode along with a half dozen other whiners.
I can see the headlines now. Then there would be a backlash against cameras. Some Amish guy would call for a ban.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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How do you know we aren't the same?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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DMD!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 21, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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here is the quote (attributed to George Washington, that circulates on the internet and that burly bob quoted above:
A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
It is inaccurate, and the changes matter.
Here is the actual quote
A free people ought not only to be armed but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well digested plan is requisite: And their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories, as tend to render them independent on others, for essential, particularly for military supplies.
it appeared in Washington's 1st Annual Message to Congress
http://www.teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=324
If you compare the quotes, you can see the difference-- what Washington actually said is evidence that he read the 2nd Amendment as safeguarding the rights of states to form public militias. The first quote makes it sound like he believed in an unalterable individual right to make, sell or possess firearms. But he didn't. Neither did most of the "Founders." Read the book I've now linked several times and even synopsized, Saul Cornell's Well-Regulated Militia.
Guns were frequently regulated and controlled by states and localities in the Early Republic and neither Washington nor any of the other "Founders" batted an eye. If you want to know what Washington would do about the Tea Party or about gun nuts in rural America, you can simply think back to the WHiskey Rebellion: When rural communities in western Pennsylvania (including tenants on many of Washington;'s own land) refused to pay a new tax on corn liquor, ran the tac collector out of town, and started waving guns, Washington raised the Federal army, sent it West, and kicked redneck ass.
Read Tom Slaughter's really fun book on The Whiskey Rebellion: http://www.amazon.com/The-Whiskey-Rebellion-Revolution-ebook/dp/B006FDZ2KE
All you "original intent" and "Tea Party" folks ought to be super grateful that Washington is dead and not President, because he'd have the frickin US Army sticking its boot so far up your a*# you'd look like a bedroom slipper. That doesn't mean he'd be right.
All that doesn't mean that we ought not to read the 2nd Amendment as protecting individual rights of various kinds, but it does mean that all the endless appeals to the "Founders" (bad quotes and all) and all the "What-the-2nd-Amendment-means-to-me" posting, is fairly useless, aside from its therapeutic value.
I think there is actually a pretty good argument for a view of the 2nd Amendment more expansive than George Washington would've recognized, but I can't see many folks making it right now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 21, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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DMD!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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Gooooooo Philo!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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All you "original intent" and "Tea Party" folks ought to be super grateful that Washington is dead and not President, because he'd have the frickin US Army sticking its boot so far up your a*# you'd look like a bedroom slipper. That doesn't mean he'd be right.
All that doesn't mean that we ought not to read the 2nd Amendment as protecting individual rights of various kinds, but it does mean that all the endless appeals to the "Founders" (bad quotes and all) and all the "What-the-2nd-Amendment-means-to-me" posting, is fairly useless, aside from its therapeutic value.
I think there is actually a pretty good argument for a view of the 2nd Amendment more expansive than George Washington would've recognized, but I can't see many folks making it right now.
Uh, you are misguided. You are substituting one translation of one man for another. Always to suit your means. Nice try.
Maybe we should repeal the 2nd, huh? Outdated?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 21, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
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The beauty of the NRA's statement today is it will backfire on them. No pun intended.
you'd think they'd figure out how to appear smart enough to show they were willing and able to engage in a meaningful conversation. But todays statement clearly shows they are not. Guarding our schools with armed guards is beyond stupid. It shows a complete disconnect with those that are not NRA members (read, most of the country).
That disconnect comes as no surprise.
Further if you think that everyone should carry you also clearly show a disconnect with the country as a whole. Most want nothing to do with guns. It's a ridiculous "solution" to a major problem.
Stay disconnected I guess....
So the result I think will be is in another week or two there will be some other mass shooting (maybe the NRA will get lucky and it'll be a month or more) and the discussion or rhetoric will continue. I certainly don't wish that but let's be real. We all know there are people out there that watched this latest mass shooting and want to one-up that psycho. It's only going to get worse before it gets better.
I suspect those advocating for restrictions on guns will start to really organize and make a statement/difference. This latest event is galvanizing those of us that realize something has to change. One the other side the brain damaged NRA is advocating for turning our schools into reverse-prisons.
Y'all really think that'll turn the conversation into something constructive?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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I thought the NRA stance was perfect (no surprise?). In addition to adding mental health patient background checks to the current Fed-mandated background checks is logical, but adding a plain-clothes LEO officer to each school is equally logical.
I gotta deal with 9mm LEO Rangers at my local crag where kids are running around, why not schools?
But asshat liberals will knee-jerk this until they fall down. Or more kids are killed and we insist on the impossible, that all guns magically go away.
EDIT:
One the other side the brain damaged NRA is advocating for turning our schools into reverse-prisons.
Typical example of rhetorical scare tactics. "reverse prisons". Are Air-Marshalls cool by you? Bank guards?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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And it's really too bad Jon Stewarts last show was the night before the latest tragic event. I'm sure once the new year rolls around he'll make this discussion a top priority on his show. The NRA and their blatant examples of cognitive dissonance will be the subject matter for weeks to come...
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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of course you thought it was brilliant. Show's how disconnected you are. And yup, no surprise.
Problem is... what I'm pointing out... is your/their view - y'all are outnumbered and you're about to see that.
so you have two choices... stick to this ridiculous idea or find another that'll work for you. Because since you are outnumbered you're about to see how that plays out and you won't like it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Doug, so will Park Rangers be disarmed now? Air Marshalls? Bank Guards?
We trust them with guns with kids on planes, banks, and in parks? Not in Schools?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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Your slippery slope is that eventually every public and private building will need an armed guard.
don't you see that?
so the schools are protect. so f*#king what? What about post offices? what about wall street? what about ___
these crazy f*#kers are not picking on schools or anything in particular. it's random.
don't you see that?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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The MSNBC pundits, along with a little help from Stewart and Colbert, would have a field day
Stewart and Colbert would never stoop that low.
hedge... I disagree with your angle entirely.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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Park Rangers be disarmed now? Air Marshalls? Bank Guards?
Banks have a sh#t ton of money and have ALWAYS been the target of criminals. And it's rare that a bank robber wants to walk into a bank and kill everyone because that's how they roll. They want the money and want to be gone. Air Marshalls are essentially guarding something similar.
you are comparing apples to oranges. don't you see that?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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Your slippery slope is that eventually every public and private building will need an armed guard.
don't you see that?
so the schools are protect. so f*#king what? What about post offices? what about wall street? what about ___
these crazy f*#kers are not picking on schools or anything in particular. it's random.
don't you see that?
Yep, I see the slope. But you assume it's bad to have an armed guard where people gather. I don't.
What would be Doug's solution to the school shooting dilemma?
EDIT:
Air Marshalls are essentially guarding something similar.
No, they are apples to apples. Suicide crazies.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:21am PT
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And your slippery slope than gets you to the point that every f*#king street corner in America has an armed guard.
That's not the America I want to live in and it's not the America that most Americans want to live in.
And it's EXACTLY why I'm stoked the NRA came out and advocated for guarding schools. It's going to backfire.
What would be Doug's solution to the school shooting dilemma?
You state that like it's somehow a "school" dilema. What about Aurora? A place just down the street from me. That's not a school. Armed guards at movie theaters?
I don't see the "school shooting dilemma" as anything to be concerned with directly. And I say that simply because it can happen anywhere not just schools.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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What was that about a slippery slope?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:26am PT
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And your slippery slope than gets you to the point that every f*#king street corner in America has an armed guard.
Don't we have that already, genius? With cops?
I'm talking about protecting schools! Where the one place we REFUSE to have guns or armed men.
That was Wayne's point!!!! But you will never see that.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:29am PT
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Bananas to walnuts?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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yes, we have police on every street corner. it's exactly why they responded so quickly to Aurora and to the shooting a week ago.
Oh... or are elementary schools a police free zone?
whatever blue... have your argument.
my point is I'm psyched the NRA made todays statement. you and they are the ones now fighting against a public that will galvanize and make an effort to bring about real change. you're scope of the problem is so narrow minded you have no real hope of getting hardly anyone to listen and change their mind. and in the end it's you that has something to lose.
Figure out how to engage the growing masses of us that are about to bring about real change. Or keep your views. At which point you stand even less of a chance to keep what you currently have.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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You state that like it's somehow a "school" dilema. What about Aurora? A place just down the street from me. That's not a school. Armed guards at movie theaters?
It appears as though the Aurora shooter avoided all local film joints that allowed CCW gun carriers. He went for the "gun-free" theater.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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Does anyone, ever, make any comparison to anything, without a wingnut saying "apples to oranges"?
are you calling me a wingnut?
philo +1
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:31am PT
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Nature writes:
"Your slippery slope is that eventually every public and private building will need an armed guard.
don't you see that?"
The taco stands around here have armed guards. If you eat at Rico Taco on Mt Vernon in San Bernardino, you'll be watched over by Chuy and his blue-steel .357.
Don't you care as much about kids as Chuy in San Bernardino cares about tacos?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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Chaz with the straw man put back.... score it and one.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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my point is I'm psyched the NRA made todays statement. you and they are the ones now fighting against a public that will galvanize and make an effort to bring about real change. you're scope of the problem is so narrow minded you have no real hope of getting hardly anyone to listen and change their mind. and in the end it's you that has something to lose.
Figure out how to engage the growing masses of us that are about to bring about real change. Or keep your views. At which point you stand even less of a chance to keep what you currently have.
WTF does that mean? You want to take my .45 and my shotgun?
Good luck...
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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I'm not currently advocating for anything. I'm merely making the observation that things ARE going to change and that you probably won't like it. Simple. As. That.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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Bluering are you planning on home schooling your child?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:38am PT
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Don't forget Colombine! One Sherrif deputy who was shot.
But he did delay the shooters. He shot at them multiple times.
(lousy shot).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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Bluering are you planning on home schooling your child?
FYI, I've stopped answering stupid rhetorical questions.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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jghedge writes:
"Guns in homes kill far more kids than they defend."
There should be numbers somewhere to back that up - if it's true. You wouldn't be able to cite those numbers, would you?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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A pediatrician will usually ask if there's guns in the home - they know they're a leading cause of child fatality.
That is the stupidest sh#t I've heard in a while. Where did you hear that gem from? Or was it just pulled from yer ass?
Let's try to be sincere, folks.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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FYI, speaking rhetorically You are stupid if you want to arm schools.
And I mean that sincerely.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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I was home schooled 'til 6th grade... if you home school 'em, do it til college. Transitioning into how you act socially in public school was difficult, even more so considering it was middle school.
Yup, those were absolutely terrible years. Glad I got my growth spurt early.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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strikes me as a valid question.
cognitive dissonance at its finest I suppose....
Mr Arrogant, it wasn't a question, it was a statement. Why do people like you have to try to appear superior intellectually, and then show utter failure?
Just be honest and true, bra. Works every time.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:52am PT
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Nice try, Doug. I said:
FYI, I've stopped answering stupid rhetorical questions. And you said;
strikes me as a valid question.
cognitive dissonance at its finest I suppose....
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:52am PT
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And I love that you call me arrogant. Anyone that really knows me would find that statement simply laughable.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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None of those links jghedge posted show a number of kids defended by guns, so none of them can back up the statement: "Guns in homes kill far more kids than they defend".
You gotta have two numbers before you can deduce "far more".
I'm still waiting for documentation backing up "Guns in homes kill far more kids than they defend". So far, no one can produce it. Maybe it's just bullsh#t.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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I have no plans to home school. To settle the question. My boy enters Kindergarten next year.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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bah... never mind... blue... you're not worth my time.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:59am PT
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I have no plans to home school. To settle the question. My boy enters Kindergarten next year .
Serious question Bluering, do you honestly want your kid to go to an armed preschool/elementary school?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:02am PT
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Serious question Bluering, do you honestly want your kid to go to an armed preschool/elementary school?
Yes. I can't see why not. The boy would have less to fear from the guard than an 'evil-doer'.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:10am PT
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Now THAT'S a rhetorical question. Bluering wants whatever the latest tea bagger memo tells him he should want.
Look, as#@&%e, when you have kids and they hit 4, 5, or 6 years old, they become unusually attached to you. The can actually converse and relay their feeling and speak to you.
Do NOT portray me as heartless. I would kill to protect my son, but when I send him to school, I'd hope others would defend him.
Teachers have their jobs. Lets send in a LEO to protect the kids from as#@&%es.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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wtf. really? we're still at this? 2800 posts and not one mind changed, all positions hardened. jesus.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:13am PT
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Lots of dead students at VA Tech and Columbine - armed guards and police didn't matter
So objective reality proves you wrong. As usual.
So what is your solution?
EDIT: You are an emotional contortionist, bra. I didn't say anything about you loving your children. I said that you'll regurgitate the party line. And you did. F*#k off.
What is your solution?
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:17am PT
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Nah Dingus, just seeing the pot, hoping to make an inside straight.
speaking of straight, he was talking about the other ron
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:19am PT
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What is your solution?
Less not more guns.
Harder not easier access.
Regulation at least as stringent as cars and drivers.
Start there.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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The unintentional firearm injury death rate among children ages 14 and under in the United States is nine times higher than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.
"Rates" are not additive, they are a number per population, for example 88 / 100K. You cannot "combine" the rates of anything and have the result mean anything.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:22am PT
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So we've established "Guns in homes kill far more kids than they defend" is bullsh#t.
Nobody can show the numbers on both sides to prove it.
What number of "kds they defend" are you working off of? Come up with that number, then we can compare the two numbers to see if one actually is "far more" than the other.
I still think it's bullsh#t.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:23am PT
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Carry on per usual. Don't be a paranoid freak. Show your kids dad isn't some crackpot bending with every rumor he hears.
Sh#t happens, but it is not very likely to happen at school. Your side is the one saying the media is overblowing the matter, so don't get blown. Simple.
Kinda hear ya on this. Still would not oppose someone at school having a piece.
EDIT: "Rates" are not additive, they are a number per population, for example 88 / 100K. You cannot "combine" the rates of anything and have the result mean anything.
Stop being logical, you're going to start making sense.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:40am PT
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Pay teachers 10k more who carry. Maybe that'd get teachers more where they should be paid too. Even though I still don't think teachers should carry at school.
O.k., I agree, but you'll start me off on a rant of money that is already wasted in the Fed Education Program. We waste a lot of money on schools in the name of "the children".
Same with Defense.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:13am PT
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Is it PTSD that makes me flinch when i hear a loud noise outside the shop these days? I GUESS you could call it that. But i would rather call it reacting due to experience. Life is trauma and we all get some.
Ron, because you don't deal with people with mental problems on a daily basis in trying to get through life, you don't realize that the rationalization that you've given above, is EXACTLY the same rationalization that most of them use for NOT getting help and treatment, and going on to tragic ends.
So think about this: You've admitted to a problem that is likely PTSD, a mental disorder. And you have guns. And you've purchased guns and given them to people who couldn't legally have them. And you deny it all, because you would RATHER call it something else.
I would be very concerned about being around you when you are intoxicated, and angry, because you will be armed, and you may react without even understanding that you are doing so.
And you will do illegal things:
well with those divulged facts, yes im sure i would have done exactly as you.! Cept i would have gone HUNTING afterwards.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:21am PT
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Ron, because you don't deal with people with mental problems on a daily basis in trying to get through life, you don't realize that the rationalization that you've given above, is EXACTLY the same rationalization that most of them use for NOT getting help and treatment, and going on to tragic ends.
So think about this: You've admitted to a problem that is likely PTSD, a mental disorder. And you have guns. And you've purchased guns and given them to people who couldn't legally have them. And you deny it all, because you would RATHER call it something else.
I would be very concerned about being around you when you are intoxicated, and angry, because you will be armed, and you may react without even understanding that you are doing so.
You're really reaching now. You have nothing....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:37am PT
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A pediatrician will usually ask if there's guns in the home - they know they're a leading cause of child fatality.
That is the stupidest sh#t I've heard in a while. Where did you hear that gem from? Or was it just pulled from yer ass?
Let's try to be sincere, folks
Wrong. As stated, it is the standard of practice for physicians treating children.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:41am PT
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"Rates" are not additive, they are a number per population, for example 88 / 100K. You cannot "combine" the rates of anything and have the result mean anything.
Wrong. Done all the time.
Rate of heart attacks for blacks, asians, hispanics, women, whites.....all have rates.
Combined, is the average rate for AMERICANS.
Used ALL THE TIME. In all kinds of fields.
The rate of gas usage is "X" for ford, "Y" for GM, etc. Combine them for the average rate of gas usage for American cars.
A billion examples.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:05am PT
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So we've established "Guns in homes kill far more kids than they defend" is bullsh#t.
Nobody can show the numbers on both sides to prove it.
What number of "kids they defend" are you working off of? Come up with that number, then we can compare the two numbers to see if one actually is "far more" than the other.
I still think it's bullsh#t.
There are several studies that look at defensive gun use in the home (and elsewhere). All are criticized heavily by folks who don't buy it. The reason is that measuring 'defensive gun use' is as difficult as using a measuring tape to measure cigarette smoke.
But measuring concepts like that is a part of research so each researcher has to set parameters as to how they measure defensive gun use (DGU). And others inevitably don't like that.
For example, guy in house hears a noise outside, grabs gun, runs outside, sees nothing. Is this a case of successful DGU?
A guy is in the house and notes the movement sensor light goes on out back, grabs gun, runs out sees a raccoon run off. Is this a case of DGU?
Guy hears voices out front, grabs gun, runs outside, sees two teens in the street talking. Teens look and leave. Is this DGU?
Guy is in mall and sees a shady character. Guy lifts up his shirt to shown shady guy he is armed. Shady guy leaves. Is this DGU?
Guy hears someone coming in his house, grabs gun, shoots suspect to discover it's his brother. Is this DGU?
Guy's neighbor (who is his sister) calls to say someone is breaking in her house. Guy grabs gun, runs over and shoot and kills the masked burglar. Unmasks him to discover it is his own son (true story). Is this DGU?
Guy has internet foe make threat to him. Tells mean internet guy if he comes to his house, he'll kill him. Internet foe never shows up. Is this DGU?
Which if any of these will determine the results of the research and may or may not support that there is more DGU than other gun incidents (injuries, murder, suicide).
But honestly, if someone could magically come up with the perfect definitions, measurement and results, would it change anyone's mind? Would those who have guns in the house get rid of them? Or would those without guns run out and get them? Doubt either of those would happen.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:10am PT
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The political climate surrounding guns is so intense that studies have been done of studies that have been done about studies. Philip Cook, the director of Duke University's public policy institute, has examined the data behind the 108,000 and the 2.5 million figures and suspects the truth lies somewhere in between. "Many of the basic statistics about guns are in wide disagreement with each other depending on which source you go to," says Cook, a member of the apolitical National Consortium on Violence Research [NCOVR]. "That's been a real puzzle to people who are trying to understand what's going on."
This is a quote from Cook, a colleague of mine on NCOVR, who along with Gary Kleck and a few others do work in this area in criminology. He offers what I think to be the truth of the matter. The finding depends on questions used, measurement, definitions, etc. Again, I'll add, does this finding change anyone's feelings about it? Doubt it. Doubt anyone chooses a gun or not based on the work of criminologists. :)
edit: Some cites on this website if you are interested in reading journal articles: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:22am PT
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When I was in high school I came home late one night opened up the garage to put away my bike. I came into the house and there is my older brother reaching into the gun cabinet and pulling out one of our shotguns.......I asked him what the hell was he doing? He said he heard an intruder in the garage and was arming himself. Interesting that we never ever had any incident of being ripped off, in fact we never even locked our doors. In this case I can say guns in that house made our home much more dangerous. As you might guess he and I have different opinions on gun control.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:28am PT
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Pay teachers 10k more who carry. Maybe that'd get teachers more where they should be paid too. Even though I still don't think teachers should carry at school.
We went through all of this crap after 9/11 when all of the gun nuts were clamoring to arm airline pilots.
Pilots are pilots, not law enforcement officers.
Teachers are teachers, not law enforcement officers.
It is inane to suggest arming teachers. Simply retarded. Anyone who suggests arming teachers is clueless about guns.
You want armed law enforcement officers at school? Fine. Maybe they can also help keep the kids in line. But all you parents had better be prepared to pay the bill, 'cause I ain't.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 22, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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Rather than stopping and actually thinking logically, the sheeple on both sides simply react.
Fear said what I have been wondering about for a long time. The difference between Canada and the US.
You have sides. Either one side or the other is in power, but everyone is on a side and after 5000 posts, you can't leave your sides and display critical thinking and solve issues. You are very representative of your country as a whole. If it came down to it (and it has in the past) you simply shoot the citizens 'on the other side' until one side declares victory.
In Canada, we have political hot button topics, but everyone is first and foremost a Canadian. All the finger pointing ends up pointed at the government - a largely detached and independent entity in society led by the fact that we had the Queen as head of state for so long. We just don't have the kind of hateful destructive arguments as a country as a whole over issues because when we differ on opinions we point our fingers at the government, not at each other.
In the US, the republicans are responsible for the NRA, guns are responsible for mass killings, and therefore Ron is responsible for these school kids.
A decade of watching this phenomenon in each country and I've finally figured it out!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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For
private gun ownership
mandatory public service or military
harder driver's license tests
decriminalization of drug possession
more pay for cops and teachers
restoring public land (no grazing, wild horses or burros)
Against
welfare/nanny state
uneducated liptards having a vote
idiots that mishandle firearms
litterbugs and vandals
property tax (you want services? Pay for 'em)
censorship of nudity rather than violence
people that have kids but don't want to spend the time and effort to raise them properly!
So tooth, I am a libertarian. Do I really have to choose a side? Why can't I just sit in the bleachers and watch the game?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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For
The end of violence.
Treating all living things with dignity.
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John M
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
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And you have guns. And you've purchased guns and given them to people who couldn't legally have them
Just to be clear, this is incorrect.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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He gave a gun he bought from a fed dealer to a guy with a temporary visa. Federally licensed gun dealers are not allowed to sell to someone with a temporary visa.
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John M
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Monolith...Today.. I don't know, but was it illegal back then?
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Of course it was.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Mr Villain, there was a time when you would have been called a conservative Democrat.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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Toker,
You don't fit with the majority of your country, and most importantly, with the majority of your history. There are millions like you. But you aren't the majority, defining mentality of how you broke off from Britain, how you solved what civil war was about, or how your media and current government works.
Feel special since you pointed that out to everyone that you don't fit into the meta-narrative of your country.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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Well, maybe (once I figure out what a meta-narrative is,...)
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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Exchange students don't have green cards, they have temporary visas.
They are here for a defined, limited time, unlike green card holders.
Green card holders are permanent residents, something he clearly was not.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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With Christmas just around the corner, the family that shoots together stays together!
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John M
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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Mono,, you had better go back and review the posts,, in the meantime, stop LYING about that situation please.
I'm lost now. But whats new about that. haha. I generally trust what both ken and Monolith say..
http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html
b. Legal Non-Immigrant on a Visa - is prohibited from possessing a firearm or ammo, § 922(g)(5) 10 years, unless an exception or waiver exists under § 922 (y)(2)&(3); if a non-immigrant has an exception or waiver, he must establish residency in a State for 90 consecutive days before purchasing a firearm from an FFL.
Ron says he filled out all of the necessary paper work with the gun dealer. I believe him. As I understand what he said, he didn't buy the gun under his name and then give it to this guy. He went with the guy to the store and bought the gun under the guys name. Paying for it and
helping him fill out the necessary paperwork.
Please correct me if I am wrong Ron.. these arguments take away from the main topic, so I want to clear them up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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WTF!
Oldest son gets air rifle but middle son gets .30-30?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
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Monolith,
I was a student in the US. I had a green card. Your arguments suck. I don't know what your viewpoints/opinions on guns are and am not arguing them.
edit: sorry Ron, I'm going to cost you $5000 now that he won't take the bet!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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Poor trigger finger discipline too.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
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no camo?
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John M
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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Poor trigger finger discipline too.
Not if she is using the lens of the camera as a mirror to take her trick shot. What isn't shown is that she only put her finger on the trigger after she lined up her shot in the mirror of the lens. This young lady is going to be quite the shooter.
When the Zombie apocalypse happens, you are going to need quite a few skills.
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TREED
Trad climber
Gunks
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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What's WRONG in this picture???...
"Responsible" gun owners who think they know what they are doing passing on a tradition of ignorance.
(You were probably referring to the wrong shoulder and finger on the trigger and maybe a child firing too much weapon for their size.)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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try cdnnsports.com;
//EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
DUE TO A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN SALES VOLUME, WE HAVE BEEN FORCED TO TEMPORARILY SUSPEND ONLINE ORDERS. ORDERS ALREADY PLACED MAY TAKE 5-8 DAYS TO PROCESS. MAGAZINE QUANTITIES ARE VERY LIMITED & PRICES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME!
Unfortunately there will be some orders that cannot be fulfilled due to inventory shortages. We Sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and are doing our best to fill all orders that we can.
YOU MAY CALL 800-588-9500 TO PLACE AN ORDER. OUR PHONES HAVE BEEN OVERWHELMED AS WELL AND YOU MAY EXPERIENCE DELAYS IN GETTING THROUGH!
All employees are coming in early and staying late to process orders as fast as we can. CDNN Appreciates Your Patience and Continued Business!
//
lol
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
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A sad comment on the paranoia and delusional thinking that haunt America.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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you don't follow things very closely, do you?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
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Ha!
Just got through to CDNN
Ordered another AK drum and some high caps for ARs and Gallils.
Rock & roll!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/mythbusting-israel-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/
Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias
Posted by Ezra Klein on December 14, 2012 at 5:36 pm
My post “12 facts about guns and mass shootings” included a mention of Israel and Switzerland, societies where guns are reputed to be widely available, but where gun violence is rare. Janet Rosenbaum, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the School of Public Health at the State University of New York (SUNY) Downstate Medical Center School, has actually researched this question, and she wrote to tell me I had it wrong. We spoke shortly thereafter on the phone. A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.
Ricky Carioti — The Washington Post
Ezra Klein: Israel and Switzerland are often mentioned as countries that prove that high rates of gun ownership don’t necessarily lead to high rates of gun crime. In fact, I wrote that on Friday. But you say your research shows that’s not true.
Janet Rosenbaum: First of all, because they don’t have high levels of gun ownership. The gun ownership in Israel and Switzerland has decreased.
For instance, in Israel, they’re very limited in who is able to own a gun. There are only a few tens of thousands of legal guns in Israel, and the only people allowed to own them legally live in the settlements, do business in the settlements, or are in professions at risk of violence.
Both countries require you to have a reason to have a gun. There isn’t this idea that you have a right to a gun. You need a reason. And then you need to go back to the permitting authority every six months or so to assure them the reason is still valid.
The second thing is that there’s this widespread misunderstanding that Israel and Switzerland promote gun ownership. They don’t. Ten years ago, when Israel had the outbreak of violence, there was an expansion of gun ownership, but only to people above a certain rank in the military. There was no sense that having ordinary citizens [carry guns] would make anything safer.
Switzerland has also been moving away from having widespread guns. The laws are done canton by canton, which is like a province. Everyone in Switzerland serves in the army, and the cantons used to let you have the guns at home. They’ve been moving to keeping the guns in depots. That means they’re not in the household, which makes sense because the literature shows us that if the gun is in the household, the risk goes up for everyone in the household.
EK: As I understand it, there’s a stronger link between guns and suicide than between guns and homicide. And one of the really interesting parts of your paper is your recounting of the Israeli military’s effort to cut suicides among soldiers by restricting access to guns.
JR: Yes, it’s very striking. In Israel, it used to be that all soldiers would take the guns home with them. Now they have to leave them on base. Over the years they’ve done this — it began, I think, in 2006 — there’s been a 60 percent decrease in suicide on weekends among IDS soldiers. And it did not correspond to an increase in weekday suicide. People think suicide is an impulse that exists and builds. This shows that doesn’t happen. The impulse to suicide is transitory. Someone with access to a gun at that moment may commit suicide, but if not, they may not.
EK: I was surprised by one statistic in your article: You said that Israel rejects 40 percent of its applications for a gun, the highest rate of rejection of any country in the world. And even when you get approved, you say that “all guns must have an Interior Ministry permit and identifying mark for tracing.” That seems like it might make people think twice before they shoot from a gun they know the government can track.
JR: That’s a requirement. I don’t know a great deal about the ballistics issue there. But that is in the regulations.
EK: Israel and Switzerland are both small, highly cohesive countries. So some say that the difference in gun crime shows that there’s something about American culture that’s leading to these atrocities. Do you buy that?
JR: Israel is not a peaceful society. If there were a lot of guns, it may be even more violent. Israeli schools are well known for having a lot of the kicking and punching type of violence. I don’t know that Switzerland has that reputation. But Israel does, and it seems that the lack of guns promotes the lack of firearm violence rather than there being some nascent tendency toward peacefulness and cohesion. That cohesion may or may not exist, but not having guns prevents guns from being used in violence. People do still commit homicide and suicide but they do it with less lethal means. The most common form of suicide in Israel is strangulation, which is striking, because it’s not that common elsewhere.
EK: Not to derail the conversation, but given that most industrialized countries have quite strict gun laws, if they don’t use strangulation, what do they use?
JR: I don’t know what other countries have, but I’ve read about suicide in Israel, and it’s striking there, because there’s an age discrepancy. Between ages 18 and 21, when people are in the army and have access to guns, firearm suicide is very common. At other ages, strangulation is very common. So it does seem to suggest that people commit suicide with what they have access to even in the same society.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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"the literature shows us" to be people that buy into media BS
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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Good thing this artical is there to debunk media BS,
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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So now we attempt to make a black eye into a full on cerebral failure.
A BLACK EYE is that how you see the death toll in Newtown? A black eye? That is almost as offensive as Rush Limbaugh referring to the slaughter as "CHUMP CHANGE".
You sir are neculturny. Especially as you wanted heads to roll for the outrage over dead brave Americans in Benghazi. So the teachers who died protecting other people's kids or the principle who died trying to stop the shooter are not "Brave Americans"? Where is your OUTRAGE now?
Gun ownership is decreasing in the US Rongo, even with the gun sale orgies you all are so proud of.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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So now we attempt to make a black eye into a full on cerebral failure.
A BLACK EYE is that how you see the death toll in Newtown? A black eye? That is almost as offensive as Rush Limbaugh referring to the slaughter as "CHUMP CHANGE".
You sir are neculturny. Especially as you wanted heads to roll for the outrage over dead brave Americans in Benghazi. So the teachers who died protecting other people's kids or the principle who died trying to stop the shooter are not "Brave Americans"? Where is your OUTRAGE now?
Well Mr "Black Eye", Mr Chump Change" I for one would never waste valuable time or life energy roping up with you under any conditions or circumstances. Go stuff a rodent.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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Of no redeemable value.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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I will bet anyone 5000.oo that i violated not one law.. takers??
Ron, you haven't yet explained your friends immunity from the law that prohibits the transport of firearms on international airplanes.
Or your conspiracy with him to circumvent that law.....
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Rong posted So now we attempt to make a black eye into a full on cerebral failure.
A BLACK EYE is that how you see the death toll in Newtown? A black eye? That is almost as offensive as Rush Limbaugh referring to the slaughter as "CHUMP CHANGE".
You sir are neculturny. Especially as you wanted heads to roll for the outrage over dead brave Americans in Benghazi. So the teachers who died protecting other people's kids or the principle who died trying to stop the shooter are not "Brave Americans"? Where is your OUTRAGE now?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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Ron I didn't realize you had a lisp.
And I just want to warn all you ST Gun Nut Ramboettes who I am pissing off, don't thing I am un armed. I have an arsenal of pens and pencils. Every body knows the pen is mightier than the sword.
And have you ever witnessed the carnage from a mass cartooning. Look out suckas I even have oil pastels!.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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Well Ron quit bitchin about the economy I just helped double your weekly take home.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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good lord...Who art in heaven,,,please being thy silence upon Ken..
Maketh him to understandeth
It is in YUR hands.. As mortals haven proven unworthy of such an effort..
It's simple Ron. Answer the question instead of evading it.
Explain why it is a big-ass problem for people to do straw purchases, but it is not for you to, and to evade laws involving international transport of weapons.
Seems simple enough.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Locker you do realize that you could be the first toon down in a mass cartooning. It's alright though since it will just be collateral damage from friendly drawing.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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Well Ron you'd get a lot more air time, energy feed and ego boost if you reposted it all one by one on this thread gone wrong.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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So now we attempt to make a black eye into a full on cerebral failure.
A BLACK EYE is that how you see the death toll in Newtown? A black eye? That is almost as offensive as Rush Limbaugh referring to the slaughter as "CHUMP CHANGE".
You sir are neculturny. Especially as you wanted heads to roll for the outrage over dead brave Americans in Benghazi. So the teachers who died protecting other people's kids or the principle who died trying to stop the shooter are not "Brave Americans"? Where is your OUTRAGE now?
Tell us more about Benghazi Rongo.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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It was a statement on my part that ultimately I would have no trust of you.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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Just back from the mall. What a zoo.
Philo would've loved it.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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The teacher Victoria Soto had a facebook RIP dated 4 days before the mass-shooting.
It's been scrubbed and replaced because they fuked up.
There was more than one shooter.
They've been scrubbing that too and replacing with the lone gun man.
As usual the stupid American sheep are being taken for the ride with the Lanza brothers used as patsies.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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Ron you are a hypocrite and an anti-semite.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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Edit; I hope you don't mean ME Philo.
I believe Newtown has a grassy knoll,..
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
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No I meant Rongo not Toker Villian which is by the way a great avatar handle.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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Clearly you should not be allowed around rope.
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hb81
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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The teacher Victoria Soto had a facebook RIP dated 4 days before the mass-shooting.
It's been scrubbed and replaced because they fuked up.
There was more than one shooter.
They've been scrubbing that too and replacing with the lone gun man.
As usual the stupid American sheep are being taken for the ride with the Lanza brothers used as patsies.
mmmmkay. could you maybe provide some links which prove this?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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. could you maybe provide some links which prove this?
Go do it yourself ya stupid fool.
Ya all just spent thousands of posts spewing and ya can't do any of your own work ya lazy asses.
None of it which absolutely proves anything except to raise suspicions.
All the main street media readers who swear by it need not apply anyways .....
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
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John M
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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KEN M ATTENTION.. WHITE CURTESY TELEPHONE.
DOCTOR KEN M.
Ron wrote
John,, Saieso had a perm status with a green card. He had been with the USFS throughout his time here and had been offered a perm position, and was fully green carded.
Ken, I explained earlier. It was not a straw purchase. Ron did not buy the gun in his name. He went to the store with has friend and helped him pick out a gun and then Ron paid for it. Only because the man couldn't afford it Not because it was illegal in any way. Ron's friend put the gun in his name. NOT RON"S NAME. There was NO effort to circumvent the laws. It was legal for Rons FRIEND to buy and own a guy. He had a permanent green card. Ron simply paid for it, which is LEGAL.
As far as I know, it is not illegal to carry a firearm in a locked case on an international flight as long as you declare it on your customs form. Some firearms are illegal to be carried into some African countries. But not all. This was an African citizen returning to his country.
If you have any information to the contrary about carrying weapons in internation flights, then perhaps you should post it.
Otherwise.. please consider this matter settled.
No laws were broken
Ron did not conspire to circumvent any law.
This has been a public service announcement. Your regularly scheduled arguments will commence after this word from our sponsors.
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John M
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
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Oh.. and by the way. Don't worry about it anymore. I have contacted the ATF, the DEA, the CAI and Walgreens and Ron is currently on a plane to a secret location to make certain that these egregious acts will not continue.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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Well then whats the story now. Exchange student or permanent resident who decided to go home.
non-immigrant aliens can't get a gun either, except thru a hunting exception.
When was the last time you hunted with a handgun.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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Please tell us more stories, like how an "exchange student" had a Green Card then decided to go home.
You are just making crap up.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
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No hunting exemption was requested, and that wasn't the aim either.
No one really cares, and the matter doesn't have to be settled. Just easy to spot Ron's whoppers.
Exchange student with a Green card who goes back home. LOL
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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As far as I know, it is not illegal to carry a firearm in a locked case on an international flight as long as you declare it on your customs form. Some firearms are illegal to be carried into some African countries. But not all. This was an African citizen returning to his country.
If you have any information to the contrary about carrying weapons in internation flights, then perhaps you should post it.
Otherwise.. please consider this matter settled.
John, I posted the quote right off an airline's website stating that it was illegal to transport AT ALL. 11:49 on the 20th.
So....the matter is NOT settled. Inasmuch as you are posting in the first person (as to what happened), you appear to be involved in this conspiracy, as well.....which neither you, nor Ron, have yet denied.
Don't worry, the statute has run. But it doesn't change the fact that a conspiracy to violate the law regarding transport of guns took place, and then was carried out.
If the gun was bought in the fellows name, that's the first time that was posted. Ron has gone out of his way not to post that, probably to keep the troll going.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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The gun control act of 1968 required Ron to complete Form 4473 for the purchase of the handgun that Ron gave to his friend. His friend could not lawfully purchase the gun. Based on what Ron told us, it looks like it was an illegal straw purchase.
Please continue....
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John M
climber
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Dec 22, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
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Locker, Ron, and myself are part of the Louisiana illuminati.
I have family in Louisiana. I have some Cajun blood and some Choctaw blood. My dad speaks Cajun French. My aunt Pearl took me fishing in the swamps when I was a kid. We used a pirogue.
You can buy drive up margaritas in Louisiana. Waterskiing on the bayous is fun. Spot lighting alligator gars at night. The shrimp is heavenly. OH.. and some of the girls are mighty purty.
Thats about as far as my illuminati intelligence goes.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 22, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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The police handcuffed several men at the scene (one in the parking lot) when they arrived because they did not yet know who the bad guy was nor where he was.
The earlier National Review Article stated there were not men at Sandy Hook which was a total fabrication. The handcuffing of the innocent guys that day was reported immediately after the event.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
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Point to Crimpergirl. Did you really need it explained?
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
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Ron, you are decidedly nuts. You should forgo any more posts for at least a month and escape to a small island far away from a computer keyboard. Do it for yourself, but mainly do it for the rest of us.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 22, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
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They always assume multiple shooters, gullible boy. Lots of people were running.
Several got handcuffed at va tech shooting as well.
Nothing to see here, move along.
You were an LEO? Use yer brains.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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Ron, I did listen to it a couple of days ago kind of thought the same thing as Crimpergirl. it's on every right wing nutjobs website out there.One thing they all have in common is a hate for Obama that is sickening. It's amazing they think that they can get a whole town to go along with this sh#t and is insulting to the victims and their families.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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If all these so called Patriots need their weapons to stand up to our barbaric Gov. that is orchestrating these atrocities what the f*#k are they waiting for? let's put an end to this now!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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Your grandaughter is adorable, Locker !
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
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Ron, Do your best to keep the first crux thread goin
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
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Maybe not a bottle baby but another bottle blond.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
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That one must be for Blahring and Cragman. I wanna see some nips!!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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Alex Jones is a nut case and Tom C is not affilaited in any way to that screwball Joe.
You're projecting bullsh!t again.
It's all so subtle it's going right over the top of your so called know it all head ......
jones would have us believe that "the illuminoddy" (his texas pronunciation) "think" they are in league with extraterrestrials, that they have suffered this delusion for centuries, but, as alex jones assures us, it's all bunk and we live in a christian world where good old christian belief, i guess with a texas baptist spin, is the real reality. except that the "illuminoddy" seem to have all the power. but ET doesn't exist. no way that. ET is all in illuminoddy imagination.
hey werner, ever meet carol rosin?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDN-llJRSjw
Lawrence O'Donnell On NRA Presser: Wayne LaPierre Is A 'Desperate, Cornered Rat'
This is a valuable listen. Even the Nutters should know about who is in charge of the NRA and it's Ponzi scheme.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 22, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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The NRA represents only 4 million people out of 300 million in the US.
By contrast the AARP represent 40 million. Ten times more than bullet boi.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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This is what I sent, I encourage others to do the same.
Congressman Jim Gerlach
2442 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Congressman Gerlach
We write this letter in the hope that some good may come out of the recent tragedy in Connecticut, that lawmakers like you will recognize their responsibility to protect all the rights of the people they have sworn to represent. Those teachers in Sandy Hook were willing to confront an armed man to protect children in their care, if you could show just a small fraction of that courage, you could save the lives of many more.
We understand that no laws will eliminate evil from our society, and that many Americans have a sincere belief that their right to keep and bear arms is an essential freedom, but unlimited exercise of that freedom should not be allowed to deprive others of a more fundamental right. Our founding fathers declared unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, long before they spoke of the right to keep and bear arms.
We have no wish to prevent anyone from protecting their homes, property or loved ones from harm, but when the most highly trained and well armed protection force in the world could not prevent President Reagan from being shot, it must be clear that more guns is not the solution. In addition, unless we choose to erect security checkpoints at our state borders and city limits, only consistent nationwide controls will ever be effective.
We therefore strongly urge you to support legislation that, over time, would save thousands of lives making this great nation even greater, yet not threaten anyone’s right to self-defense. Such legislation could include:
• Mandatory, effective background checks for all gun purchases.
• Mandatory reporting of “lost” or stolen guns, with legal responsibility placed on gun owners to take reasonable measures to secure weapons against theft or unauthorized use.
• Restrictions on the purchase and sale of weapons that have no valid purpose for self-defense or hunting.
• Restriction on the number of guns any person can purchase at one time.
• Mandatory comprehensive training for all Concealed Carry Permit applicants.
We remain convinced that the Republican party has an opportunity before the next election to reflect on the deeper values that it represents, not merely those of a vocal or wealthy minority. By demonstrating the leadership and courage to question the dogma of the past, on this and several other issues, a stronger party could emerge to improve this nation for all its inhabitants.
If you fail to support meaningful legislation to reduce gun violence in the coming congressional term, we pledge that we will actively support your opponent, and encourage others to do the same. Subject to legal limitations, for every bloodstained dollar your campaign receives from the NRA, we will provide a matching donation to your opponent.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
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TradEddie that was stellar!
I am not remotely suggesting taking away everyones guns but I would like to see LaPierre and the NRA strangled and drowned in a hog slop pit.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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I am not remotely understanding your suggestion Hedge.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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I got that. It is just as I see that the Gun Lobby immediately starts the "Gunna git yer Guns" fear mongering when ever these incidents occur.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 22, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Lincoln took considerable pains to see that the constitutional amendment prohibiting slavery was approved by the House before the rebels surrendered - even though that meant the usual political trickery getting approval from a lame-duck House. The amendment had already been approved by the Senate, and was sure to get the needed approval from the non-rebel states. Lincoln knew that once the war ended, it would be more difficult to do anything.
The amendment followed on the emancipation proclamation of 1863, which as mentioned applied only to the slaves of rebel states ("war powers"), and which would have lapsed at the end of the war.
The current movie Lincoln is largely about this issue.
The NRA is of course desperate, knowing that any reasonable federal limitation or prohibition on assault weapons, automatic weapons, and similar guns would likely stand up to a constitutional challenge. Once the supreme court rules that reasonable restrictions are permitted, it's game over.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
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Putting armed guards at schools is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
Yah lets put men with guns & very little training at our schools. Then they don't have to travel as far when one goes postal. Like that won't happen. Much less having their gun taken by someone. Most guard shoot on duty are shoot with their our gun.
Much less the message you are sending our kids --- We now live in a police state because some wankers are to f--king selfish to put their guns down. Adults are out of control & the only way we have a half a chance at keeping you from being killed is by surrounding you with more guns.
If you are a man & you carry a gun for protection ---- you are a cowered.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 22, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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Which side do you think those Apache pilots and front line LEOs will come down on?
You clearly have no understanding of the makeup of both of those communities.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 22, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
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If they don't come down on the gov. side they won't have their little birds to fly in.
We have one of the best trained militaries in the world, right, wrong, or indifferent most if not all the officer core will do its duty as ordered.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 22, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
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"Vee vuss jooost folowing udders!"
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:10am PT
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Fortunately there are not that many of them so they could all fit on the short bus.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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The collapse of a nation this large will likely take decades and probably generations. Rome did not fail overnight. There's a lot of ruin in something this large.
Now the timing and shape of that collapse is not predictable.
It will certainly not be an armed insurrection against the government we know today. That's just silly. We will turn against each other long before that. The "evil government" is a bloated unsustainable cancer, totally unable to afford it's appetite. At the current pace, there won't be a dollar in 50 years. What does that mean? Who knows.
It might not involve bloody revolution at all. Might be more of a slow rot and decay from within with brief pockets of violence.
All I do know, is 1 out of 5 folks are on Food Stamps and rising. If all those EBT cards ever start coming up "declined" at the local Stop n' Shop.... Things will get interesting in less than 48 hours.
Things go tribal first generally. Everyone will be out for themselves and their local communities first.
So yeah, "Assault Weapons" certainly have their place if things degrade. Nobody grounded in reality thinks they're going to be fighting against Seal Team Six. More like trying to keep your family fed and alive type stuff...
Hopefully this will happen long after I, or my kids, need to worry about it. And it might not be all that bad for everyone. There's no way to really know.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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Oh the LOL
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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the NRA proposes cops in schools, while silly, where's your criticism of Barbara Boxer's proposal to put armed soldiers in schools?
Boxer unveiled two proposals Wednesday to bolster school security. The first would require the Justice Department and Education Department to draft new school safety guidelines and provide up to $50 million to help schools implement new security plans. The second proposal would provide federal reimbursement for up to 4,000 National Guard troops to be used by state governors to protect schools.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:58am PT
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No one ever dies from a mass breast feeding.
But here in Gun Nut haven there are public decency laws prohibiting breast feeding.
Yeah more BOOBS
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Dec 23, 2012 - 01:22am PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 02:11am PT
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Just cut a few hundred billion from FOREIGN AID and bingo bongo,, schools will be much safer and civil.
Ah, and here we see the REAL AGENDA!
This is NOT about safety, it is about using NRA controlled guys to INTIMIDATE children with GUNS (after all, without guns, they could do the same thing right now....but apparently not, it requires guns, according to Ron!)
Enforced CIVILITY. I imagine that has to do with praying to the right God at the right time, as well.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 02:18am PT
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Gosh, Ron, I'm still waiting for your explation of how you got around the illegal transport of a gun on an international flight, and you conspiring to do so....
Why don't you have an answer for this, and nothing but silence in spite of repeated postings about this?
Is this because your face is red, because you've been caught? Is it because LEO training is to never admit anything, but call the Union Rep?
I would be more concerned that now, you will not be able to pass a lie detector test.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 02:22am PT
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the NRA proposes cops in schools, while silly, where's your criticism of Barbara Boxer's proposal to put armed soldiers in schools?
That was NOT the NRA proposal. The proposal was to put SECURITY GUARDS in schools. Rent-a-cops.
They are not trained to deal with assaults. They are not particularly proficient with firearms. They do not carry automatic weapons, ever. They've never been fired at.
Soldiers with experience have all those characteristics in spades.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 02:34am PT
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I'd previously posted:
So think about this: You've admitted to a problem that is likely PTSD, a mental disorder. And you have guns. And you've purchased guns and given them to people who couldn't legally have them. And you deny it all, because you would RATHER call it something else.
I would be very concerned about being around you when you are intoxicated, and angry, because you will be armed, and you may react without even understanding that you are doing so.
There is another additive factor that raises alarm bells: threat of violence outside the law, such as:
well with those divulged facts, yes im sure i would have done exactly as you.! Cept i would have gone HUNTING afterwards.
or
Jeebs,,,i would have preferred some TORTURE to find out ANYTHING about this..Maybe,, just maybe if we made the penalties for such crimes the most barbaric a taxidermist can think of,, we would start finding out the real whys..
Remember that we are talking about a former LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, here.
Advocating hunting people with guns, and torturing.
Hmmmm. Just add alcohol, and mix vigorously.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 03:07am PT
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Hey, he called me out. He's the one who challenged with a $500 bet.
You'd think Repubs would learn that the making bets crap usually ends in their eating their words.
In addition, this is exactly what the gun laws are all about.....creating a patchwork of laws that are easily violated that effectively makes them not work. This is the GOAL of the NRA-types, and Ron's example simply shows how a law enforcement officer will violate those laws, if they feel like it.
Jebuz, I happen to work in an occupation where people routinely accuse every member of covering up the errors and commissions of others. However, that is actually not what goes on in most of my world. When we see something wrong, we point it out. If I did anything different, I would feed into that impared vision of ethics. If it's wrong, it's wrong.
I don't have a problem with people making mistakes, as long as they own up to them, and work not to repeat them, particularly involving third parties, when there is no harm. That would seem to be the potential situation, here.
Remember, I'm not the one who brought up the situation in the first place.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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Riley, I'm getting old so does that mean I have PTSD?
Wow!
Was it all the gunfire?
I have never heard this before.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Dec 23, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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Ron, Checkout the rock removal thread.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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Ron, you can post all the links you like about DOMESTIC flights you want.
You stated that your friend was going to SOUTH AFRICA, he had a GREEN CARD, which I don't believe residents of other states have to have to work in California.
So he was flying INTERNATIONALLY. Let's see the links for THOSE regulations, buddy.
The fact that you posted the domestic regulations, when you know he wasn't taking those flights to get to where he "was in danger", tells me that you know you are wrong, and are trying to hide the truth.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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So the NRA says that gun laws won't protect children in any way.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates nearly two million children live in homes with loaded, unlocked guns.
The presence of guns increases the risk of death. Most adolescent suicides involve a gun owned by a parent.
Parents may think they have adequately protected their children by
safely storing their guns, but this sense of security is often misplaced. A study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center found that 39 percent of children interviewed knew the location of their parents’ guns and 22 percent said they had handled the guns despite their parents’ reporting otherwise.
Children under 10 were just as likely to have reported knowing where the guns were kept and having handled them as older children. Research shows that it is not enough to talk to children about the
dangers of guns. Children exposed to gun safety programs are no less likely to play with guns than those who are not exposed to such classes.
Simply removing guns from the home is one of the best
ways to protect children and teens from gun deaths.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 23, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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The most recent analysis of data from 23 high-income countries
reported that 87 percent of children under age 15 killed by guns in these nations lived in the United
States.
Gun homicide continued as the leading cause of death among Black teens 15 to 19. White teens the same age were more likely to die from motor vehicle accidents, followed by gun homicide in 2008 and gun suicide in 2009.
Taking a 30-year snapshot when child gun death and injury data collection began,116,385 children and teens were killed by firearms between 1979 and 2009—enough to fill 4,655 public school
classrooms of 25 students each.
Since 1979, America has lost nearly three times as many children and teens to gunfire as the number of U.S. military personnel killed in action during the Vietnam War, and over 23 times the number of U.S. military personnel killed in action in Iraq and
Afghanistan (5,013).
Non-fatal gun injuries and the physical and emotional trauma that follows afflicted 34,387
children and teens over two years, 20,596 in 2008 and 13,791 in 2009.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 23, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
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A friend of mine who took some guns to Africa for a hunt said that as soon as he cleared airport security there was a gun store with beaucoup beer and dope (that means ammunition to you noobs), even high quality suppressors and full autos.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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There are DIFFERENT rules for bringing firearms into an african country for "guests" (non-natives) and for residents.
From the South African website:
Permanent Importation (South African passport holders)
Returning South African Citizens who wish to import firearms for hunting, target practice, protection, etc., are advised to apply for an import permit six to eight weeks before their departure and address their application to:
or send a facsimile to : 011 27 (12) 353-6041
Once this permit (SAP 312) has been issued application should be made directly to:
The Director of Import and Export Control
Department of Trade and Industry
Private Bag X192
Pretoria
0001
SOUTH AFRICA
or a facsimile sent to : 011 27 (12) 428-7799
Telephone Number : 011 27 (12) 428-7793/7796/7786/7788
Email : vvuuren@dti.pwv.gov.za
The following information is required
Owner's full name and address
Identity number (SA citizens only)
Passport number (Foreigners and permanent resident holders)
Type of fire-arm
Caliber of fire-arm
Manufacturer's serial number (It is illegal to import fire-arms without serial numbers stamped or engraved onto the metal)
Type of ammunition
Quantity of ammunition
Market value in Rand.
After producing the above permits the applicable import duties and VAT must be paid to Customs before the release of the firearms can be obtained.
The owner of the import permit will have to apply for the firearm license before the expiry date on the temporary permit (SAP 312) and the preceding documents (as well as proof of payment of tax) should be submitted with the application.
It is the responsibility of the passport holder to present the South African Police Service with a Certificate of Conduct (Police record) from the country of origin when he applies for a South African firearm license.
but Ron, I simply don't believe that you had your friend file such a form 2 months before leaving. I don't believe you arranged for a "Certificate of Conduct" for him, and I don't think he paid customs and taxes.
But you have the plausible deniability that cops love to use, especially when testifying with their hands on a bible.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 02:57am PT
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I can't believe I'm going to say this, but
where's the kook with the ponies?
Bring on the ponies!
The Federal Commission of Equestria agrees. Where did I put my Party Cannon...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:09am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:10am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:11am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:11am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:13am PT
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:14am PT
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hooray for ponies!!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:23am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:25am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:25am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 03:26am PT
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:05am PT
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Don't forget Crimpie, it wasn't just any 12 year old boy. It was the 'husky' ones.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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And that has WHAT to do with American gun violence?
Don't you have some AL-KI-DER 24 hours a day forum to rant on?
Look into the possibility that Adam Lanza was a Muslim.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:27am PT
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This thread...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:28am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:34am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Wait! Previously uploaded photos?
I CAN HAZ PONY BOMZ????
YES SIR, THANK YOU SIR, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER?!!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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Boba Fett's secret identity:
Yes, as the photo shows, Boba Fett is secretly Werner Braun!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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A word of advice to anyone still in this thread:
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:40am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:45am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:53am PT
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All right, I'm off to bed. Can someone pony this thing into the ground while I'm asleep?
Goodnight, Moon.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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Good night, Derpy Hooves, dreaming of muffins.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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Good night Rainbow Dash.
Good night Applejack.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
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Good night Noteworthy.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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Be carful that Ron guy whats to kill horses.
He might say no, but if you read his posts he wants all the wild horse rounded up & gotten rid of.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Good night Octavia.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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No he wants them as a food source. And there are just so damn many of them ya gotsa have high capacity magazines.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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Good night, DJ Vinyl Scratch.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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Good night Twilight Sparkle.
Good night Nyx.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Goodnight Princess Luna, who turns our hearts to mush...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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And good night...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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Good night...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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Good night to Celestia, whispering "hush..."
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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Sadly, fire fighters being shot at isn't new. Fire responders have been exposed to that menace for some time.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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Good night, Dead Horse.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Good night, Weak Sauce.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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Good night Supertopians, everywhere.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 24, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
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Police officer & by stander shot in Houston, cause it's sooo safe in Texas, with all their guns.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 24, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
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Minerals set me straight, this should have been in one of the other stupid gun threads.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/24/webster-new-york-firefighter-shot/1788917/
I also learned that, apparently, felons can't legally own guns. That's great news!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/us/felons-finding-it-easy-to-regain-gun-rights.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Under federal law, people with felony convictions forfeit their right to bear arms. Yet every year, thousands of felons across the country have those rights reinstated, often with little or no review. In several states, they include people convicted of violent crimes, including first-degree murder and manslaughter, an examination by The New York Times has found.
While previously a small number of felons were able to reclaim their gun rights, the process became commonplace in many states in the late 1980s, after Congress started allowing state laws to dictate these reinstatements — part of an overhaul of federal gun laws orchestrated by the National Rifle Association. The restoration movement has gathered force in recent years, as gun rights advocates have sought to capitalize on the 2008 Supreme Court ruling that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to bear arms.
USA NRA USA NRA USA!!!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 24, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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The guy beat his 95 year old grandmother to death with a hammer and he only got a manslaughter conviction for it.
He should have never been out of prison.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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This thread has gone nowhere. Perhaps we should back into the topic, try to find common ground. Can we all agree that private United States citizens should not own 20mm chain guns?
Anyone..?
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
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Do I have to give up the three I already have?
Can I keep at least one for ol time sake?
And, you know, just in case.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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If I can't have a 105 Howitzer nobody gets anything.
My neighbor built his own canon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh8oXXXp0Sk
He made every single piece of this in his garage with small tools.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 24, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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Uh, Cannon, please. A canon is something else completely.
Well, physically speaking, anyway.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Heh.
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:42am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:45am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:45am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:52am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:52am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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Da_Dweeb
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2012 - 12:59am PT
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| Messages 1 - 1899 of total 1899 in this topic |
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