Discussion Topic |
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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Inspired the the Gram Parsons song of the same title and recent posts on various threads, I though it would be nice to have a thread where SuperTopo Christians could tell tell their story and make a statement of faith.
Format:
1. What happened that lead you to follow the trail to Jesus? How did you find your faith?
2. How does God help you deal with life? What do you have that helps you to take comfort in the Christian Life?
3. What is your affiliation? Catholic, Methodist, or perhaps a local Church or person you would like to acknowledge? Perhaps you follow Jesus from afar, unaffiliated with any group.
Please let others tell their story, hold your reactions, criticize on other threads and let the Christians, or whatever faith that may post here, be proud of who they are being for a moment.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:00am PT
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It's those damn Canadians. I heard they were flooding over the border...
Doomed, we are!
And as another aside....East ledges fixed ropes? Dude, yer gonna die.
You brought ropes with you, correct?
Meh.
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:43am PT
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My mother is Catholic and my father's parents Unitarian. They took me to different churches as a kind of smorgasbord to help me find what was right for me (though I don't think they saw it that way).
This allowed me to see the hypocrisy within and between different sects of Christianity and exacerbated my nature of questioning all authority.
I am philosophically agnostic, but honestly, I am an atheist.
I think all children should be exposed to the schizophrenic nature of Christianity and the hypocrisy of all religions--this will lead them to question the ready and broad, all-encompassing answers throughout their lives rather than seek those easy answers to difficult or open questions.
Edit: to the OP, if this was not what you were hoping to generate by this thread, I apologize, but, you open a can, sometimes you get worms.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:50am PT
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Lennox is wise....but I'm sure that the Canadians are involved.
Somehow.....hmmm.
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:09am PT
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It's the Scot's Skully, those damn pagan Scottish tribes.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:11am PT
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Newfies & Nova Scotians, then?
Maybe a dusting of New Brunswick? Prince Edward Island?
Dammit man. This is serious.
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:20am PT
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Leamhnachd, about 8 miles from Glasgow, so give or take 2200 miles with the Newfies.
Sorry, but I can't help with the pronunciation.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:33am PT
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I was born in Canada and raised a pastors kid. Now I feel exactly the same as Lennox .
This thread is FUKCED.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:36am PT
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1. What happened that lead you to follow the trail to Jesus?
I had a lobotomy.
2. How does God help you deal with life?
Jesus gives me comfort in knowing that I will spend eternity in Hell, which is where all of my friends will be.
3. What is your affiliation? Catholic, Methodist, or perhaps a local Church or person you would like to acknowledge? Perhaps you follow Jesus from afar, unaffiliated with any group.
Since I am not a child molester, I cannot claim to be affiliated with any Christian group.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:45am PT
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Growing up being forced to believe christianity really f*#ked with my mind. I resent my parents for pushing that sh#t on me.
Nothing disconcerts me more about religion than early indoctrination.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:52am PT
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What is the Christian life?
If anyone cares, the way I understand the crux, is not whether you let Christ into your heart, it's more a matter if you can realize he has always truly been there. His peace is there in your heart, just remember, let go of your self(don't worry, it's not going anywhere) and wake the f^ck up.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:21am PT
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Speaking of lobotomies...
A man from Ontario wanted to become a Newfie, so he went to his doctor.
"Of course I can help you become a Newfie, we just need to do a lobotomy."
During the procedure the scalpel slipped, and the surgeon accidentally removed his ENTIRE brain.
In the recovery room, the surgeon explained the accident to the patient.
The patient looked at the surgeon and said, "Que vous dites?"
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 16, 2012 - 07:48am PT
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Spider,
Seems like people would ignore the thread if they had nothing positive to say; but that isn't going to happen. The only reason I can conjure up for this is the fact that people are seemingly threatened by the fact that people belong to the Christian faith and it bothers them to see any thing related to the subject on this forum.
As a former self-described atheist, I can relate to this in some fashion; but I doubt I would post a comment about it. If you approached me in person and breeched the subject I would ask you in some way to "leave it alone". If you persisted I would proceed with some harsh language and insults until you left me alone.
However; I have mellowed with age and grown in tolerance, so I don't think I would do so now. Unfortunately a lot of people haven't done so.
You can read my posts on an earlier thread that might address your questions rather than re-post.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1014715&tn=60
One more thing, I Like The Christian Life was written by Ira Loudermilk and Charlie Loudermilk, better known as The Louvin Brothers; which has a better ring to it than The Loudermilk Brothers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_4g7qb4aGI&
The Byrds ≈ I Like The Christian Life (outtake)
(from Sweetheart of The Rodeo Album) Gram's voice was overdubbed with R. McQuinn's when trouble developed with GP's legal responsibilities to other labels. McGuinn's voice just doesn't do the song justice (he ain't got no soul) and wasn't into the country direction of the lp anyway.
Chinchen,
I agree with you for the most part; I was forced to sit through Mass as a Catholic and all the processes that are part of that until I was of the age where I could revolt by refusing to go; without too many consequences (or ones that were worth suffering).
However; it would be hard for a parent not to choose this path if they had faith; no matter what religious belief they adhered to. What amazes me is how some children develop a deep and everlasting faith because of this; despite the fact that they haven't dealt with issues in life that cause someone to seek out a saviour or to understand their existence in relation to the concept of a God.
Sierra rat, I respectfully disrespect your post. Why bother with insulting the OP's questions?
Dehli dog, it is an open forum and should be treated likewise. Some "tacoians" are going to post trash no matter what the topic; just the same as some are going to start threads that are pure trash. The latter usually will pass deep into the bowels of the forum; or at least that is wishful thinking on my part.
↓Sierra rat, that's politics, not Christianity. That is the kind of thing that Christians are warned about and give the belief a bad rap; but I am not inclined to debate that issue.
Spider asked simple questions that are directed to the followers of Christ's teachings who frequent this forum. In other words, your post is out of place and just plain rude. Hopefully you can appreciate that.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 16, 2012 - 08:35am PT
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When christians respect other people - and stop trying to force everyone to live by the bible - then I'll respect christians. But those people are constantly trying to shove their religion down everyone else's throats, and try to deny life, liberty and happiness to people who aren't christians.
I'm not gay, but the same-sex marriage issue is but one of many such issues. What if marriage was banned for christians?
Why should christians be respected, or even tolerated? I am not interested in having religious law enforced in this country.
Yes, christians are a threat to our freedom. They are more of a threat than the Taliban. Romney believes that the bible is more important than the US constitution. Now that's frightening and threatening.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:42am PT
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I'm a Christian but I agree with Sierra Rat.
If I were to impose my beliefs on anyone through politics, politics has just as much a right to limit my (religious) freedoms in return.
That isn't what the New World was about.
(except SLR - Christians should be treated like any other group, the politicing groups you talk about should be treated like any other special interests group lobbying your government to limit your freedoms)
Politics should be athiest. Religion should be personal. A relationship between God and yourself. Whenever it is more than that, conflict ensues.
I don't understand the gay issue especially. There is no reason why a non-religious government shouldn't allow tax returns with two people on it regardless of sex.
If my relationship with God results in me living a certain lifestyle it should stay my choice.
The reason every religion looks so bad in history is that Governments or groups have used it - ending in conflict. Same thing happens if you replace the fan on your PC with the fan from a jet engine.
It is especially prevalent in the US - you have bumper stickers and people talking about religion everywhere - it was weird for me coming from Canada. Here people keep to themselves more and there is less conflict. There you have every special interests group lobbying your government and instead of living in harmony, thinking they can make everyone else like them. Sheesh! almost 400 million people in the most diverse melting pot in the world, you aren't all going to get along! Neuter your government, make it as neutral as possible, because the more specific it gets about making rules, the more of these people you will alienate, offend, or remove rights from.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:57am PT
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That's one of the things I really (really!) like about ST.
Just when I read something and after consideration am leaning in that direction someone else comes along and brings out an opposing (or variation to a) point of view.
Yes I get the "f#ck you" kind of responses too, butt still I often "hear" ideas, thoughts, and reflections that make ME think.
Thanks Tooth + Tobia
Though for the record I still think the OP would maybe get what he's after if he conversed with those other links.
And also for the record I'm agnostic (no surprise there)-I love a good mystery:-)
The two great mysteries in life (IMHO) are what comes after life (if anything) and what gender a baby will be (f*#k that ultra sound shite).
cheers
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:59am PT
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Tooth,
I agree about politics and Christianity. Those that run for office, use it for a platform or soapbox are doing that; using Christianity. That practice has nothing to do with faith or the Bible. The Bible directs a reader or follower to respect one's government.
I hate politics; and political debate. I have less tolerance for bad manners and that is why I posted the "out of place comments". Also the above posts seemed to be bashing and insulting Spider for his beliefs and simply don't belong on the thread or on any thread for that matter.
I can't explain it much better than that and won't attempt to hence forth.
D Dog, No matter what one believes in life, what comes next will always be a mystery.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:16am PT
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I am an athieist who attended Catholic schools during my formative years. I read much of both the Old and New Testaments.
While I do not believe the Bible to be inspired, I was always impressed by the "story" of the life of Christ. If by "Christian Life" you mean following the example of Christ's life as portrayed in the New Testament....go for it!
I only wish that many of the so called Christians who demonstrate so much hate and intolerance for those with differing views would follow Christ's example.
While I don't believe the life of Christ as set forth in the Bible to be literally true or the inspired work of God, I do feel that it is a good template to follow if you want to lead a life where kindness, compassion, tolerance and the willingness to help the less fortunate are important to you.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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I am philosophically agnostic, but honestly, I am an atheist.
What a gem! Though this thread went awry at the gate some good has come of it and I'm keeping that line as my own personal standard!
Plus 2 Donini on the cross post! May have to steal that one as well!
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:23am PT
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I though it would be nice to have a thread where SuperTopo Christians could tell tell their story and make a statement of faith.
Why don't you go first Spider? Don't forget to follow the format :)
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:30am PT
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Yes Spider , you should practice what you preach .
Give us your 3
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:05am PT
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Thanks, Tooth, for the insightful statements. I agree with everything you said.
I, too, have read the bible. It is a wonderful and inspiring story. The rock opera Jesus Christ Superstar remains one of my favorites. Generally I live by christian morals because I believe they're good - but my real "god" is freedom. Screw with my freedom and feel my wrath.
I make the joke that I became a christian when I had a "lobotomy" because modern christians in America seem to have lost all perspective of their own bible. The Jesus that I know and respect was man who preached love and inclusion, not the derision and exclusion that is so fervently spouted by christians today.
You don't like what I said? Then I challenge you christians to make a real change. We live in a secular state with millions and millions of non-christians. Enjoy your religion but don't try to shove your ancient mythology down my throat like it's all actually true.
Okay, I'm done, out of respect for your wishes and out of respect for the OP. Get on with your Christ fest.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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The Jesus that I know and respect was man who preached love and inclusion, not the derision and exclusion that is so fervently spouted by christians today.
By my read of your writing, you're having a difficult time honoring love and inclusion yourself, Rat. You've expressed a lot of hate and exclusion above.
I guess what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, hmmmm?
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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All you atheists better hope you are right.
Sierra Ledge Rat, YOU call Christians paranoid?
Spider, nice thought but you can see where it goes. The climbing "community", for the most part, is a godless, intolerant bunch.
The problem is that very few can differentiate between man-made "religion" and true "Christianity". I just pray for their souls on a daily basis.
Uppity verbage like that is what makes us think you are all retarded and annoying....speaking of intolerance. The simple mentioning that you are 'praying for our souls' is intolerant, and worse, pompous and arrogant. I am an educated person, educated enough to know how to make my own decisions based on my own life and beliefs. Damn well educated enough to know that a belief IS man-made.
"better hope we are right"? You had better do the same, my friend. Pray for yourself and yours, not for me and mine. We're doing fine.
Good luck with the Xtian thread though, I dont know what you thought would happen....
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:22am PT
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...Screw with my freedom and feel my wrath...
Don't screw with my freedom and we'll get along just fine. That's all I'm asking for. Shall I add "please?"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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All you atheists better hope you are right.
Darn, looks like we have one more now to add to our fundamentalist list.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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Scew Jeesus. Go climbing fukcers.
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BuddhaStalin
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:31am PT
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Yup, one of the biggies with christians, the seemingly overwhelming need to save and convert everybody. Religion is an exclusive concept, most exclude beliefs other than their own. Thats my problem, do what you do, but get off me.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:44am PT
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Just like you, Jody, we know we're right!
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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All you atheists better hope you are right.
 So, let me get this straight….. You take your beliefs to be a bet? You believe because of a possible (though completely imaginary until the time of death) unfavorable outcome if you don't believe?
Just keep talking Xistians… the evidence you provide with every line leads me to only one conclusion…
There is no god.
You just need to realize it too.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
CoZmic brought that one right to my face.
He's one of the greatest Christians I've ever met.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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I'm a Christian.
A sinner. A dude who is grateful every day for the real transforming power of Christ in my life. Its the real deal. In the words of Rich Mullins, "I did not make it, it is making me." I've seen too many supernatural things that go way too far beyond reality that point directly to a sovreign and loving creator who is in the process of redeeming a broken mankind. It is my life and my worldview and its good beyond measure.
You guys know I like writing Trip Reports, maybe someday I'll write a TR about what Jesus has done in my life. Probably a small audience here on Del SuperTaco though.
Thanks for the topic. Looking forward to hearing more from Christians and non/other religions around here.
By the way. Heaven is gonna be a lot like Tuolumne...minus the afternoon thunderstorms.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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"I've seen too many supernatural things that go way too far beyond reality..."
Please no one reply, Do tell.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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MOST of us believe what we were RAISED to believe...
We are reflections of our parents...
That right there reveals one hell of a LOT...
At least to me, it does...
yep
just depends on how carefully our little zygote picked his/her parents
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
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I don't care what someone's spiritual beliefs are, I just don't want to have to listen to their Proselytizing.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
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That's like saying "I don't care what someone's spiritual beliefs are, I just don't want to have to look at someone wearing a turban or a hinjab".
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
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HFCS,
Heres one.
In Nepal a few years ago, I was sent into a little building to have a look at a woman who I assumed was having a diabetic issue, though the locals told me she was possessed. I was pretty much skeptical, bein' a westerner and all, though I believe in the occult, I had never had experience with such things. I was kinda...."this woman's sick but probably just in diabetic coma or something.
I come into the room and I feel kinda creepy all over, but I do a quick assessment on this 80 year old woman, sitting there with a thousand yard tare.....a glaze over her eyes....she's really zoned out. Just rocking there in pain.
I try to ask medical questions...the usual, but the "pastor" says...Dr., "she has a spirit. A demon you know?" I'm kinda...yeah whatever, but something is really oppressive in my gut. I try a few more medical inquiry questions when the pastor says "Dr. lets pray for her." I lay hands with this man on her....she has been this way for months. Just sitting, staring, in severe pain.
We lay our hands and he prays a long, out loud prayer in his native tongue, but he is a Christian, so I hear "in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ" as few times. I'm getting rattled so I start praying, asking God to reach into this situation with authority and free this woman from whatever evil is inside her....And If I'm honest, I'm not even sure I believed in what I was doing because it was so foreign nto me. But the bible talks specifically about Christians having authority over things like this. Afetr ten minutes or so, she gets all shaky, then her eyes open up and she starts to cry, wringing her hands and hugging me. It was super emotional. She was all tears and smiles and thank you's and I was pretty rattled.
I asked our in country contact, another Christian Nepali man, what happened back there. He siad..."you do not know?" "God cast out the spirit when you prayed." "It is very common here. Good for you American Christrians to see the real power of God No?"
So that's one story High Fructose. I don't have any other way to explain that kind of thing. It stuck with me for sure.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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Chaz, your logic belies your beliefs.
Religious folks are not known to have sound logic...
Imaginary friends, yes. Logic, not so much.
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Romney believes that the bible is more important than the US constitution.
SLR, Romney's a Mormon...I'll read more into that statement...
ec
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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Good question Jody. I was throwing the paradox you made and throwing it your way as well. Emphasizing the recursive in the ironic.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 16, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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We agree on something then. Praise beer.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
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Christians and Atheists aren't the problem. Bigots are, and they are on both sides.
BTW bigots aren't just racists. They are defined by Merriam-Webster as "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".
e.g. Christians who don't tolerate Muslims. Muslims who don't tolerate Christians. Atheists who don't tolerate both. Anyone who doesn't tolerate gay people.
Many people understand that others have different views than they do and can tolerate that. Others are so unable to admit they could be wrong and everyone is entitled to believe what they want that they take offense at other's beliefs and try to force their beliefs on them. Or worse they use their beliefs to justify their bigotry and prejudice.
Thankfully I think bigots and that thinking is in the minority. Most people are good and respectful. And it seems less and less people are bigots as time goes by.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
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I though it would be nice to have a thread where SuperTopo Christians could tell tell their story and make a statement of faith.
One more and then I'm done. Spider wasn't ramming anything down anyone's throat when he started the thread. He asked some simple questions to a specific group. Where's the harm in that?
There is no reason to respond if it doesn't apply to you. If it offends you; it is on you, not him.
I have seen Spider post on many threads and never have I seen where he posted anything about his faith (I avoid the threads where this type of exchange is usually found).
So what is the basis for all the posts that don't directly answer his questions or address them in a manner he seeks? Intolerance and disrespect are the first things that come to mind.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
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I think it is funny that people are intolerant of intolerant Christians.
It's all about love people. It doesn't matter how you are treated. It's all about love love love.
When someone tells you that you are going to hell, love love love. It isn't easy, but it's what is right. People that judge need it the most.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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When was the last time someone told you you're going to hell?
Seriously.
I suspect the problem you speak of exists only in your immagination.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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It has been awhile, but it has happened plenty of times, seriously.
Actually I take that back, a few weeks ago I got in a spiritual conversation with my father, he basically said "if you don't agree with me, you must be influenced by Satan."
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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Tobia, if your post was directed at me, I wasn't dissing Spider's thread intent but since the conversation spread way beyond the thesis of his original intent, my post about my thoughts on spirituality are germane to the conversation as any posted so far.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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This is a climbing forum. Certain unspoken rules apply. Talking about religion and politics is generally thought to be bad subject matter...I wonder why. If you are going to bring it up expect to be hassled.
ESPECIALLY IN A FORUM WHERE WE CANNOT CATEGORIZE THE THREADS CHRIS.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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Romney believes that the bible is more important than the US constitution. Now that's frightening and threatening.
Did he assert which fruit was most important?
…so frightening when those Mexican Mormon Mango fanatics enunciate supremacy of mango cheesecake over American apple pie.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:27pm PT
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Knot me
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
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Neversummer,
That was awesome.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
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Actually,
it say "climbERS" forum
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 16, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Christian Life and (OT) should hint to what is following. How many times has it been stated that this is a forum for climbers, not limited to climbing?
For example, Tuesday Night Posting....OP Chinchen
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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I think it is funny that people are intolerant of intolerant Christians.
It is not the intolerant Christians that upset non-Christians, it is the manipulative Christians that seek to make this a Christian nation and change the government to suit their religion, that are a problem for others. It is not a matter of being easily offended, it is a matter of being forced to follow religious rules while not being a person of that religion. That's what sucks.
Dave
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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Why did god create christians ?
somebody has to pay retail !
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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Do you think your better than anybody? anyone?
Jody - "All you atheists better hope you are right."
Jody - "I just pray for their souls on a daily basis"
As BuddhaStalin mentioned: this is the kind of crap that gives christianity a bad name.
Upiddy and Pompous
Your beliefs are yours. Mine are mine. Cant we just keep it at that.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
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"All you atheists better hope you are right."
why?
is something terrible supposed to happen to atheists, please elaborate?
"I just pray for their souls on a daily basis"
I seriously doubt that
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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Hi Norton,
hope your well.
I was just quoting Jody from the second or third page upthread.
I also was wondering why ?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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yeah fish, I got that
just using your quotes for convenience!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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…so frightening when those Mexican Mormon Mango fanatics enunciate supremacy of mango cheesecake over American apple pie. +3 Jennie!
Why did god create atheists? If it's to test believers, I hope we (atheists) get our reward for playing along......oops.....
Actually, I stayed out of this thread till it went astray, ( though it was almost immediate), and hoped the op would get the responses he was looking for, as I thought it would be interesting to read. You guys could ignore the static and answer the points set forth. It really was a good premise.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
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As one of the ones insisting, I think you're in a better position to do that, chief.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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thinking a little about the OP's purpose of this thread.....
well, why not a special thread dedicated solely to Christian faith?
we got lots of special threads
bird thread
politics thread
friday night drinking thread
etc
but then maybe we need an Atheist only thread, to balance it out...........
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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Christians seem to be some of the pushiest zealots out there.
Keep your god to yourself, please.
I respect your right to belief, respect my right to question. I live a good, caring, thoughtful life and will fare just as well as you when we all get buried.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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but then maybe we need an Atheist only thread, to balance it out...........
Is Nothing, sacred?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
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spider, i am going to pray for a change in your heart when it comes to gospel music. i forgive you for the gram parsons reference. it's not easy, but i am trying.
all i can do is testify:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
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God please save me from your people!
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
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Silver, thank you for posting that vid. good for her; she gets it.
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Thanks Jody,
I am not offended and I am happy for anyone to pray for me.
I do love God and show no prejudice.
The comments are trying to stick towards the thread title.
Enjoy the hills its great that you get out as often as you do.
Best,Gregg
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
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I fail to see what is wrong with me praying for you and I fail to see what is wrong with asking atheists whether they are sure they are right or not.
I don't see anything wrong with it either. There are religious zealots, but there are also atheist zealots.
My answers to the OP:
1. What happened that lead you to follow the trail to Jesus? How did you find your faith?
Nothing happened. He hasn't lead me to His trail yet.
2. How does God help you deal with life? What do you have that helps you to take comfort in the Christian Life?
He hasn't helped me deal with life and I have no sign that He even exists.
3. What is your affiliation? Catholic, Methodist, or perhaps a local Church or person you would like to acknowledge? Perhaps you follow Jesus from afar, unaffiliated with any group.
Unaffiliated.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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sorry nita. heh
always wondered how the stones would've done had they partied with billy joe shaver instead
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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rupple - I like this these guys take on religion.
You should update their "take on religion".
As I reflect back,. Megadeath, Anthrax & Metallica where my favorite metal bands through out the the 80's & I still listen to Metallica (just sayin).
Dave Mustaine still fronts Megadeath (dude IS Megadeath) and as you probably well know, is now a Christian! The same goes for Scott Ian (founding member of Anthrax) who also still tours with Anthrax & has also made public his relationship with Christ. Along with a host of others (Brian Welch & James Shaffer from KoRn, for instance).
Just for the record, imo, (and in Christs opinion, for that matter) "religion" sucks. Anyone who has read the four Gospels with an open mind will have come to that conclusion. The first "religion" that successfully hijacked Christ's teachings effectively subdued and practically destroyed them for a millennium.
And I agree with Tobias in regards to politics, especially when it is meshed with religion. You can't force Christianity upon anyone, it is a personal relationship, and few will find it. It has taken on a whole different slant here in America over the last 2-3 decades...sad to say.
And neither can you force ideals, particularly Christ's, upon anyone. They may be successful in changing laws, but they will not change hearts.
America is headed down it's own path, headed towards it's own destiny (which doesn't look favorible, imo) and politics mixed with religion will only hasten it!
Chinchin -- Very sorry to here about the negative results in regards to your upbringing, etc., it would be very difficult being raised as a "pastors" son in many regards. I am not familiar with your personal account, but have heard or read about or personally witnessed many others over the years, Franklin Graham's for instance. For him, and everyone else, it's a personal thing, no matter how much has been heaped upon you in your youth or otherwise. I imagine there are a lot of expectations laid upon a pastors son, FG's particularly. Each has to, come to their own conclusions in life regarding who JC was and is. Unfortunately, parents, religion and society in general, can have a negative impact as well as a positive one, but, ultimately, it is a personal decision that we are all accountable for! And as far as that goes, my personal experience as a youth with the religion known as Catholicism was, for the most part, a negative one. I had to come to my own decision of who JC was, no matter what someone else or some religion had turned Him into!
edit: Silver & Jingy, that vid you posted with the message from Emanuella was excellent. That is what it is all about, what Christ is all about, He both demonstrated and said it "But the greatest of these is love." Like Cosmic (and Christ) stated, it is the two great commandments that are important, the bottom line so to speak! But it takes awhile for some of us to get it, we tend to forget about the overwhelming flow of love and forgiveness that filled us initially, and self get's in the way...sigh!!
BTW, I have followed this since the OP first posted it last night and there have been many good questions and responses (besides the usual uproar) ...just sayin!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 16, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
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Christians, and indeed adherents of all beliefs, would be easier to stomach if they weren't often so sanctimonious. The practice of 'praying' for someone they didn't know, or who was known to be a pantheist, athetist or agnostic, and then boasting about it here, being a good example. If you must do it, do it in private.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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if i get to heaven and peter is all, "we're gonna listen to country emo for eternity," i swear to god ima kill somebody.
or maybe start suspecting that something has gone terribly, terribly wrong. wait, is that really peter? and is that the marx brothers over there? oh oh ....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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what if the stones had hung out with johnny cash instead of gram parson?
crank up the gospel & preach like paul
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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MightyHiker
Christians, and indeed adherents of all beliefs, would be easier to stomach if they weren't often so sanctimonious. The practice of 'praying' for someone they didn't know, or who was known to be a pantheist, athetist or agnostic, and then boasting about it here, being a good example. If you must do it, do it in private.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Love your neighbour as yourself is a good rule to live by or at least a good point to start as is the ability to forgive.
Beckett had his own variety:
"Use your head, can't you, use your head, you're on earth, there's no cure for that! (Pause) Get out of here and love one another! Lick your neighbor as your self!"
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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Please let others tell their story, hold your reactions, criticize on other threads and let the Christians, or whatever faith that may post here, be proud of who they are being for a moment.
Talk about sanctimonious hypocrites to the max.
All you sanctimonious hypocrites couldn't keep your mouths out of it even as the op politely asked to do it on a separate thread.
Unconscious sanctimonious hypocrites who force their beliefs the same way .....
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HybridAlien
Trad climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Anyone who lies in bed at night and tries to communicate through thought (or out loud) with an entity that will never respond is a weirdo.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Aug 16, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
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I was raised in a very conservative christian home and I am happy that my mother and dad have something that helps them through hard times.
That being said, when I was a young man I was in the army and stationed in Korea. I had never met a more loving, moral, kind group of people than those Buddhist "heathens", as my mother would call them. I told my parents that if these people were doomed to hell, then that's who I'd rather be with for eternity (personally I think I'm going to be just a new deposit in the bank of life, nutrients for everything new, and there's nothing wrong with that). To this day my mother says that "that's when we lost Scott, when he went to Korea".
Happily Lost - Moss
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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listen up pilgrims:
sister nikki will lead you out of the wilderness of emo gospel
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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I believe in Christ. Have from a young age. It was never anything that was forced on me or told that I had to do "or else". My parents are both Christians and I grew up in a home that practiced loving those around them and especially those in need or less fortunate. I have never forced my faith on others but I do confess to loving others as Christ called me to do. I belong to a church in Burbank that reaches out to the homeless and opens it's doors to any and all who are in need of help. I do not believe Christ approves of war or violence in His name. I am neither Republican nor Democrat, nor is Christ.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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Religion is a mix of good and evil, the evil from men's use of religion to promote their murderous schemes and the good from, I think, God's effort to guide spiritual betterment. Hence we have the Old Testament with a plethora of God inspired genocides and a law so murderously harsh that everyone on the planet would have to be stoned to death, including God's supposed chosen, the Jews.
With religion over 50% pure evil, anyone who is believing 100% is evil as well. The atheists and agnostics are much closer to God and redemption because they have the good sense to reject all of that evil. The most spiritually advanced pick out the good from all the religions of the world, while rejecting the evil therein. Seeing and knowing is what counts, rather than thoughtless believing.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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Christians, and indeed adherents of all beliefs, would be easier to stomach if they weren't often so sanctimonious. The practice of 'praying' for someone they didn't know, or who was known to be a pantheist, athetist or agnostic, and then boasting about it here, being a good example. If you must do it, do it in private.
You are just begging to get prayed for! (I'd do it but I'm pretty busy today, sorry).
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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just happened to be troll .. er ... strolling by
Life ain't nothin' but a funny, funny riddle
Thank God I'm a Catholic boy
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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Yeah, what he said.....
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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Chris I found the lord in 1999 and in y2k i gave it up.
i have no sense of place when it comes to people and church or to worship a spirit.
Mike Newheart gets upset everytime he talks to me about the word.
sorry, but not interested.
cya!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 16, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
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i used to crank and drink until my back was to the floor
praise the lord, guitar
[Click to View YouTube Video]
rip eddy & waylon
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 16, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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If someone has a relationship with a potato that has improved their lives and inspires them to lead a happy life, so what?
The OP is asking for discussion of one of the best things about religion. Be cool and not make it about you.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 16, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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God Damn It (can you say that here?) why can't you all just stay on topic?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Aug 16, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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My father was an atheist and a Communist. I was reared on abuse for all things Jesus and all things American. There are still old copies of USSR Today and Soviet Life littering my late parents' house.
My grandfather was a socialist and a Master Mason. Hating Christians and Jews was second nature to him. His brother Axel drove a 44-ton Panther tank on the Eastern Front and killed Russians all day long. You wouldn't say Uncle Axel had any particular religious affiliation except hating and fighting. I do seem to remember that he hated Jehovah Witnesses with a particularly strong passion. But what do you want? Those old SS men were never much fun.
My Uncle Bob was a alcoholic who hated all religions and my mother was an agnostic. Think Aunt Grayce, the artist, was into some kind of Zen Buddhist art-as-religion pose. I guess that way she could put up with her husband's alcoholism. Then, there was cousin Curt. He was an alcoholic like his father who didn't really believe in anything but wine, beer and vodka.
I guess you might say that my entire upbringing was anti-religious. In fact, growing up in Bay View Hunters Point we used to track down Italian kids and beat them up because they were Catholics, a group we were taught to really hate. I think my late cousin used to go into the Catholic Church before services and defecate in the pews so that when THEY came into Mass on Sunday they would find a coiler in their seat.
At this stage in my life, I just don't think I'm going to undergo a conversion experience even if that would reconcile me more to my own mortality. Tough.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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Wow. Some of you guys are really mean. Spider isn't preaching or lecturing or talking or anything. He is merely asking.
1) My parents are Believers, and so am I. Divorce and other nasty mid-life crises caused me to examine what really matters. I was born again at age 31. I jumped in the baptism tank and everything - woo-hoo! God is always there for me, even if I'm not always there for him.
2) Knowing that I'm forgiven is a huge burden off. However it is also an obligation, because who am I not to forgive someone who asks me? There is a lot of wisdom to be found in the Word. I'm a big fan of the book of Proverbs. I'm awfully thankful I'm saved. Man, no one needs it more than me.
3) I'm a Bapti-costal. You'll usually find me in the choir, or with a trombone in hand. Well, back in the day when I actually went to church. Gads, if I ever went back, I would need to wear a little sign that says, "HI, my name is Pete"
I'm sure as hell not the most obedient Christian out there. But for reasons I cannot fathom, I seem to be truly blessed. God's something great in store for me, however I have no clue what it will be.
I am who I am, and that is
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Pitons" Pete
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Loomis
climber
Peklo Vole!
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Aug 16, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
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“Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.”
― Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor
Do you know where you stand?
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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I just can't stand a Christian thread with no pics of hot nuns.
Prod.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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Hey - here's a question for those of you who make mean replies above:
Why is it acceptable to bash the sh#t out of Christians, but knott Jews nor Muslims?
If this had become an anti-Jewish post or an anti-Muslim post, wouldn't everyone be "outraged"?
Thoughts?
Just askin'...
WWPRD? [What Would Piton Ron Do?]
Forgive me, Lord, for laughing at the Santa Claus photo. And, lawsy lawsy lawsy, I just love hot nuns. Those Catholic girls, hoo boy.....
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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What roils my blood is the "believers" who accuse people who see past their metaphors as being atheists.
"Don't confuse the finger pointing at the moon for the moon."
Many of us are comfortable living in the mystery of life without having to concretize it. We are not atheists, yet we find religion tedious, unnecessary, and often destructive.
These debates become simplistic finger pointing. To save time, I'd often rather deny the validity of someone's religious beliefs entirely and stand with the atheists rather than explain that what you think you believe concretely is actually a metaphor. Religious beliefs are pretty much certifiably false if not interpreted metaphorically. The atheists at least by and large realize that the belief of most is empty.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
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"Religion" - a set of rules - is probably the worst thing that ever happened to faith and a personal relationship with God.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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So I saw the nun pic and was reminded of Pate, wonder how he is.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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Aye, to live the freedom of Christians!
To not be constrained by the limits of scientific understanding or a science education (let alone the limits of reality); and succeeding that, to not be constrained by any commitment to try to live up to a science education or any commitment to try to support it in the world as part of a larger goal - that being better practices in the art of living. Aye, what a life and lifestyle - freedom indeed!
Freedom, free will and heaven under God. Empowering! It's not called "The Greatest Story Ever Told" for no reason.
Woe is me, I'm not so free.
Constrained by reality, tsk tsk.
Constrained by a science education, tsk tsk.
Constrained by a commitment to live up to it, or to support it, tsk tsk.
Woe is me, I'm not so free – not so free as the Christian.
Such freedom, what bliss!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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zBrown, I didn't mean to offend you, I wasn't trashing Catholics in general, that was were i first heard about JC from an old nun and that
was very significant. I later came to a personal revelation on my own, but her input (simple gospel story) was vital. It was some of the other "religious" trappings that are applied to the RCC that I personaly found fault with later on.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
i dunno, me thinks johnny wore black because he was an original badass!
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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If this had become an anti-Jewish post or an anti-Muslim post, wouldn't everyone be "outraged"?
Nope, not me. Anyone who is so caught up in their own beliefs and can't see people for people because they believe in some sort of different BS deserves to be questioned when they come out and thump their chests.
Prod.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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So please explain how Spider is thumping his chest? I don't get it.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Aug 16, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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Where's the
Sunday Afternoon Posting While Drunk on Religion Thread
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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I was just checking on the internet for the religious medal count at the Olympics. I could offer up a guess, but I can't actually find statistics on the Jews vs Christians vs Muslims vs Shenism-Taoists vs Buddhists
say there hey splitter, nothing I've said on this thread is directed specifically at you - keep on rockin' in the free world
Tobia - you can engage or disengage - that's rockin' in the free world
I often ignore stuff altogether, read it and ignore it, or fire away so that someone else can ignore me
Who cares?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
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No religious thread worth the name does so with out Angels.
Charlie's Angels.
The Victoria's Secret Dream Angels.
The California Angels.
If there's a heaven, it's right here. It's what you make of it.
(Cue The Joker by Stevie Miller)
Trying to believe in something as intangible as an after-all ife is harder than going along with your peers.
It's not so much intolerance on the part of fundamentalists, who obviously lack imagination (forgiveable), as the need to be the same as their brothers or sisters.
It is also envy, in a way, of someone who is free of the bonds of organized religion or faith in the spiritual.
God-willing, they will mature and become less muscular, enjoying life and enjoying others enjoying it as well.
That's what Jesus was talkin' about.
I'm a catholic boy, an altar boy, a boy scout, a boy who was in the Sodality, went to two Catholic parochial schools, a Catholic high school, was wed in the Church, and am no longer affiliated, with either the wife or the Church.
I am a diagnostic awetheist. I (mostly) don't claim to be right about anything, wonder about a lot, and figure somebody made the most of what he or she had. Then they forgodaboudit.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 16, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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When I began climbing I did so in the hope that good karma would result from the simple fact of moving upward.
A lizard knows more. He's hungry. Good reason to climb.
Dirtbag at the side of the road, holding a sign:
Will climb for karma.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 16, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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The climbing bum lifestyle is attractive to me. We all know what it is. Nobody shoves it down my throat.
I think I should live my Christian life the same way. If it looks attractive to somebody and they get to know my Savior, great!
A government can't improve or add to the climbing bum lifestyle in the Valley. They only put up roads, hotels and take out free campsites- and charge admission and impose camping limits. The same with religion.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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There is a good chance I might regret this …………
In an attempt to follow SS stated format & doing my best to keep it brief
1) Living a life of violence and (self) destruction. I was by no means a “fun person” to be around, and many quite correctly considered me hazardous to their health. Was at a point and with the background to follow through & commit suicide by cop. In the moment cried out to God …. And He showed up as Abba Father. God Proceeded to restore me to some semblance of sanity. Delivered me from self medication & reconciled my family back to me. Jesus found me, as He was never lost
2) The Lord has given me humor and joy – which helps me to laugh at my self. Much grace has been poured out on my life. What helps me take “comfort in the Christian Life” is the utter destruction of ego, pride and performance. Salvation is not earned, not wages being paid out for performance or effort. It is a complete and total gift and so have I no grounds to brag or self aggrandize. I am a beggar that has found bread.
3) I was– in Pentecostal vernacular – radically saved. An immediate and sudden 180 turn. Received education from a Conservative – opps I am sorry - FUN –DA – MENTAL College. Did Youth Ministries for about 8 years total, four of those years as Student Ministries Pastor and Sectional Leader for Nor California / Nevada District of the Assemblies of God. My Bride and I left to pioneer a little Barrio Church for 5 years.
Where there are people you will always have politics & politricks and I am not good at it. In truth we got worn out & beat up and have been on Sabbatical for the last 18 months…. More to the story than I really want to share, but in truth my bride and marriage is my ministry now.
I tread carefully here but the following might be pertinent:
A)I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Republican Party & in 30 years Presidential voting I only voted for the “winner” once
B) I embrace Science and in fact have siblings who make a living at it – if you believe Medicine is a Science I have spent the majority of the years of Ministry
Bi – vocational and have been employed in the Medical field going on 20 years.
C) The majority of my years of ministry were serving at risk families & youths coming out of generational – some times three and four deep – violence and affiliation. We have done a lot of work with the homeless and abused also. I have education in Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) and spent a fair amount on Suicide watch and serving Juvenile Offenders in Boot Camps and Isolation Units.
This has gone on longer than I wanted or meant to, and I am struggling to close. This is obviously a polarizing topic with strong opinions, and even stronger emotions. In all sincerity I pray that all may prosper in every way and be in good health, just as your soul prospers
Fabula Est Vestri
Rob Newell
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MisterE
Social climber
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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Rob, I LOVE this line:
What helps me take “comfort in the Christian Life” is the utter destruction of ego, pride and performance.
Some of the best Christians I have ever met were helping the at-risk youth and the homeless - I did the rounds with them.
Your big share is appreciated by at least one person here: me. Thanks, and God Bless You.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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Wow, this thread is really moving along. Wonder why.
However, when you gather your equipment and head to the rocks, you are engaged in an activity that was to some extent an outgrowth of muscular christianity, a movement prominent in Victorian and Edwardian England.
So don't knock it too hard - some of those guys were our forefathers.
;>)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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It was equally (if not more) a product of the Romantic movement, which if anything reflected pantheistic beliefs.
Although admittedly people did occasionally climb mountains in the bible, assuming that there's any truth to it.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Yikes!!
It's gonna take me forever to catch up with this thread.
I had no idea it would do this.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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Having lived most of my adult life with Hindus and Buddhists, the thing I find most distressing about Christians is their assumption that they alone have a path to the Divine.
As for micronut's experience in Nepal, I have seen possessions and also exorcisms among animists, Hindus, and Buddhists there. In Japan I have seen Confucianists and Taoists exorcized by a Buddhist priest. I've also seen Christians possessed and exorcized. Whatever is happening on those occasions cuts across ethnic and religious lines. I can't agree with the implication that only "pagans" get possessed and only Christians can save them.
I've also seen healings and speaking in tongues among many non Christians. Not to mention that many of Jesus' earliest followers were "pagans".
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John M
climber
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Aug 17, 2012 - 01:14am PT
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Great Post Rob..
Few have ears to hear, but some do.
thank you and may God bless you.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 01:23am PT
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my person opinion is that religion is a vehicle for spirituality and it's up to individuals to figure out which way of expressing their spirituality works best for them.
like.
and to each his own. walk it.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 17, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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Not to mention that many of Jesus' earliest followers were "pagans".
And if there was a real person named Yeshua, he was if anything a Jew, who became the founder of a fringe sect that has since changed enormously.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 17, 2012 - 01:42am PT
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I always liked these quotes:
“My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.”
― Dalai Lama XIV
“Love and Compassion are the true religions to me. But to develop this, we do not need to believe in any religion.”
― Dalai Lama XIV
“The purpose of all the major religious traditions is not to construct big temples on the outside, but to create temples of goodness and compassion inside, in our hearts.”
― Dalai Lama XIV
“Irrespective of whether we are believers or agnostics, whether we believe in God or karma, moral ethics is a code which everyone is able to pursue.”
― Dalai Lama XIV, The Path To Tranquility: Daily Meditations By The Dalai Lama
“In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy is the best teacher.”
― Dalai Lama XIV
“Each of us in our own way can try to spread compassion into people’s hearts. Western civilizations these days place great importance on filling the human 'brain' with knowledge, but no one seems to care about filling the human 'heart' with compassion. This is what the real role of religion is.”
― Dalai Lama XIV
cheers
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:19am PT
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who became the founder of a fringe sect that has since changed enormously. I could be wrong but I thought it was some of the apostles and a guy named Paul that were the founders. Chewy just asked them to spread the word. God is.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:31am PT
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re: love peace and compassion
You can talk about them and feel good, but as long as there is an insistence to reproduce (there is) and an insistence to grow or gain (there is) in a finite environment of limited resources, these insistencies (otherwise expectations if not rights) are going to come at some point at the expense of others... and the love, peace and compassion are going to be limited, restricted (e.g., to one's community, tribe or loved ones) accordingly, commensurately. Despite all the kumbaya in the now.
I know I'm not the only one who's had ecology to know about population dynamics, boon and bust cycles and population crashes. When resources start disappearing.
Who here thinks all Americans, let alone all the world's people, are prepared to live a simple subsistence life style like the Dalai Lama, anyone? Start with America's celebrities and alpha males and all the umpteen millions lusting everyday to emulate them.
.....
How ironic. It just struck me that the OP is one of most magical thinkers we have here at the Taco, firmly convinced humans exist without limits (anything is possible) and future technology, human ingenuity or God Jesus - maybe all three? - will appear like manna at some point (in the nick of time?) to save us.
How I wish that were true.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:41am PT
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Good points, Corny.
Are you talking about sustainability and stability?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:47am PT
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Yes, they're just not possible across the whole of humanity given (amongst other things) its value structure which by way of education or the info age we've all come to know only too well. Something's gotta give.
I bet you know it, too.
.....
On that debbie downer, good night and sweet dreams...
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:53am PT
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Yes, I know these are more important to our mutual survival than is the matter of what an individual believes.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:55am PT
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OP had a admirable thread (idea).
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Loomis
climber
Peklo Vole!
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:29am PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
They're five miles high, as the crow flies, leaving blood-red vapour trails across the sky
Moving in from the east, towards the west, balaclava helmets over their heads
YES!
Well if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another think coming
If He ever finds out who's hijacked His name
He'll cut out His heart, and turn in His grave
Islam is rising, the Christians mobilizing
The world is on it's elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
"It's war," she cried, "It's war," she cried, "THIS IS WAR!"
Drop your possessions, all you simple folk
You'll fight them on the beaches, in your underclothes
You'll thank the Good Lord for raising the Union Jack
You'll watch the ships sail out of harbour
And the bodies come floating back
You'll watch the ships sail out of harbour
And the bodies come floating back
Well if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another think coming
If He ever finds out who's hijacked His name
He'll cut out His heart, and turn in His grave
Islam is rising, the Christians mobilizing
The world is on it's elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today,
He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA
For the lights that now burn brightest behind stained glass
Will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart
Because God didn't build himself that throne
And God doesn't live in Israel or Rome
God doesn't belong to the Yankee dollar
And God doesn't plant those bombs for Hezbollah
God doesn't even go to church
And God won't send us down to Allah to burn
God will remind us what we already know
That the human race is about to reap what it's sown
Islam is rising, the Christians mobilizing
The world is on it's elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
Armageddon days are here... again
Armageddon days are here... again
Armageddon days are here... again
ARMAGEDDON DAYS ARE HERE... AGAIN!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:46am PT
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Some people strive for the light, let themselves go for greater clearity.
Others have their eyes fixed inwards, speaking in tongues and living their lives in silent desperation, waiting for it all to end.
And then there are others again...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 17, 2012 - 08:27am PT
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I try to respect all religions as they all have something good to offer humanity... i love what the Dali llama preaches...What annoys the hell out of me are the poseur chest thumpers and i'm not talking about you spider as i don't know you...Spider....Weren't you murdered by some famous actress..?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:31am PT
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Yikes!!
It's gonna take me forever to catch up with this thread.
I had no idea it would do this.
this is a typical chris savage troll. i love jesus pro and con has gotta be the easiest hot-button overworked supertopo subject going. here we have a trollmaster OP and nearly 200 predictable posts in a couple of days, everybody posturing the belief or unbelief we've all become so familiar with, and the OP offering no interaction with the flies he stirred up off what norwegian once so masterfully described as a turd on the lawn of life.
my experience of people who feel strongly about jesus in adulthood is that they have translated certain issues in their personal lives into the christian system of belief and found some important personal support from fellow church members. in short, i think god, religion, jesus are a form of romance, as they have always been. if you really want to discuss this subject, you put more of your cards on the table. in doing so, you expose yourself, and your belief, to a vulnerability which you know is going to be a lot less comfortable than the gladhanding on the church doorstep.
you owe it to supertopo, chris, to be a tad more personal about this--if you're serious about it.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:37am PT
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You start Tony. Give us an example.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:57am PT
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the thing I dislike about most christians is they cant wait to say they are christian and love jesus but never show it in their daily actions. Actions speak louder than words. The next thing I dislike is it seems part of thier duty to judge other people when it specifically states that judgement is god's job alone in the bible. I could go on but if you want people to start taking christianity seriously maybe the actions need to be doing the talking.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:58am PT
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Yup. All of them. At least in the US media.
Maybe someone should get out a bit and see what is going on further than their TV screens.
http://www.newrealityinternational.org
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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Still processing information... so much to do and say.
Thank very much to those who testified. A compilation of the good ones are coming so you don't have to read the whole thread. (Cosmic, Micronut, Batrock, and others, ...wow! You guys have moved me/us.)
It's really hard to have one's faith ridiculed so, if you would, please take the to that other thread where we do that.
Christians, your testimony as per the OP formula has done more to help others understand and respect you.
Thanks to those who have helped provide a positive sound track.
Thanks to those who have repented and deleted their posts.
Thanks for the posts of positive support and respect.
Yes I owe you my own testimony. That is coming later. I gotta rush off to work right now.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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that flowchart is a lunker. keep trolling, chris.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Thanks to those who have repented and deleted their posts.
amen to them
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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A guy posts a topic asking for testimonies of people's lives. A few respond to the OT. A couple people ask good questions.
150 mean, filthy, self serving posts from dudes who enjoy putting other people down.
Sad. Says something about the core of so many of you guys.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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please fill me in on the magical underwear. are we talking capilene?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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A guy posts a topic asking for testimonies of people's lives. A few respond to the OT. A couple people ask good questions.
150 mean, filthy, self serving posts from dudes who enjoy putting other people down.
Sad. Says something about the core of so many of you guys.
I totally agree.
WTF!
and I'm totally not Christian. What ever happened to a little bit of respect?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Although admittedly people did occasionally climb mountains in the bible, assuming that there's any truth to it
What does that have to do with the muscular christianity movement?
Mormanism places emphasis on the vibrancy, strength, and burliness of JC, eschewing images of Him suffering on the cross, popular in protestant and catholic observances.
klk, a few words perhaps about romanticism and muscular christianity in relation to climbing history? I suppose I assumed adherants to MC didn't necessarily bible-thump but maybe I'm wrong. Those rc pioneers certainly didn't spend their Easter vacations reading the bible! But I'll bet many of them were at least nominally church of england members, some becoming vicars after graduating from Oxford or Cambridge. I'd be curious about the faiths they professed, if any. I remember Eckenstein being treated badly by the alpine club because of his ethnic background by good upstanding church of england upper-class climber/snobs.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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I wish I could say that the sarcastic insults surprise me, but they don't, partly because I would have been a source of some of them 40 years ago.
I converted and gave myself to Christ in 1974, but my journey started much earlier. If any of you ever heard how you need to pray for unbelieving family members, my life testifies to the truth of that need.
My father was a man of very strong faith that he lived daily. Christianity wasn't just a social club for him; it was life itself.
My mother's family has an even stronger Christian history. Her father was a professor at Euphrates College in Kharpert (now Harput in Turkey). That college was a Christian missionary institution and although my grandfather was educated at the University of Edinburgh, he returned to Turkish Armenia to teach and to minister there. He, along with my mother and the rest of his family, was arrested on April 24, 1915. He was tortured and killed. Obviously, my mother survived although, 97 years later, she still vividly remembers her imprisonment.
My mother and her siblings all believed and lived the Christian life. I have three male first cousins on my mother's side. All have Ph.D.'s -- two in physics and one in molecular biology. All live their Christian faith through youth ministry, publications (one of my cousins edited a French language newspaper for Armenian protestant youth, and later edited a new Armenian language translation of the Bible), and missionary work.
I have two younger sisters who became Christians before they graduated from high school. Then there was me. I grew up going to church and Sunday school, but as I got older, Christianity seemed more and more like a fairy tale for weak minds. By the time I got to Berkeley as a college freshman, I admired the existentialism of Royal Robbins and the climbing lifestyle of Chuck Pratt much more than what I considered to be the outwardly pious and inwardly rotten lives of so many self-proclaimed Christians.
The only problem was that my family and their friends just didn't fit that mold. How could my parents, sisters, and cousins be so intelligent, so selfless, and so believing? More importantly, why did they always have such infuriating serenity when our lives were anything but serene? My dad was a small businessman who was always just a step ahead of the wolves, yet he never seemed to worry much about material prosperity. My mother escaped death twice, saw many people killed by the Turks among whom she lived for twelve years, yet forgave them and grieved when, for example, an earthquake hit Turkey.
The surrender moment came in November of 1974. I was living and working in LA then, and decided to visit Berkeley that weekend for the Big Game (for those unfamiliar with the term, the "Big Game" is the football game between a certain Junior University in Palo Alto and the University of California. It is not the game between U$C and UCLA). Cal lost on a 50-yard field goal with no time left.
As I was driving back on Sunday afternoon, the radio in my car died, so I had several hours of silence alone on I-5. My love life was a mess, I was getting ready to start grad school at UCLA while still working full time, I was reading about feats of former climbing friends like Dale Bard and Vern Clevenger, while I was stuck working weekends, and generally miserable. I desperately wanted the peace that the rest of my family had.
As I was passing the time in silence, I came by a cinder block structure in Kern County on which someone had spray painted graffiti reading "Jesus is the Answer." I always used to ridicule it, e.g. "Yeah. What's the question?" Well on that Sunday afternoon, I knew and gave my life to Him there in my car. My friends -- particularly my closest ones -- saw a big change in me. As my best friend since first grade (and still my best earthly friend other than my wife) said: "Something happened to you. You're different."
I wish I could say that the rest was smooth sailing, but by worldly standards, it most certainly has not been. On other threads, I've described my struggle with depression that cost me my career and, briefly, my freedom, but Christ never deserted me, even when I almost deserted myself.
I know many people disagree with my opinions, but this isn't opinion; it's my experience. Jesus Christ is life, and He offers it freely to any who accept His gift. Do-it-yourself salvation doesn't work, and particularly didn't work for me, because I make a lousy god. While I, like every other Christian on earth, cannot be perfect, I was changed, and continue to change, in ways God leads. Best of all, He gave me a very large measure of His peace, and that peace overcomes the world.
Sorry for the length of this. If anything, I've abridged. Anyone wanting details is more than welcome to send me an email.
Thanks Spider, for starting this thread.
John
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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I suppose I assumed adherants to MC didn't necessarily bible-thump but maybe I'm wrong. Those rc pioneers certainly didn't spend their Easter vacations reading the bible! But I'll bet many of them were at least nominally church of england members, some becoming vicars after graduating from Oxford or Cambridge. I'd be curious about the faiths they professed, if any. I remember Eckenstein being treated badly by the alpine club because of his ethnic background by good upstanding church of england upper-class climber/snobs.
One of the things Peter Hansen found in his research on the Alpine Club was that Dissenters-- including Evangelicals as well as agnostics --were vastly over represented. That appears to be more broadly true, as well in muscular Christanity movements in GB. But "Biblethumping" as we know it in these United States was not part of the picture. The types of Evangelical Protestantism that are current today in North America barely existed in period Great Britain much less Europe. The early 20th century revivals in Wales were really unusual and seem to have had very little influence on climbing culture. And Fundamentalism (Christian as well as Islamic and Hindu) was a largely 20th century phenomenon.
The fin-de-siecle was a big moment for the emergence of serious alternative religious movements, from Neo-Paganism to Swedenborgianism to various forms of Hinduism and Buddhism imported from Europe and GB's various colonial misadventures. But those currents didn't gain much influence until the 1920s (with the possible exception of the kinds of TIrolian Catholicism that I've been working on).
In GB, most Christians were simply quietly anti-Semitic. (Being loudly anti-Semitic was declasse.) The prejudice was as much ethnic and cultural as theological. Folks like Eckenstein weren't terribly welcome at Cambridge or Oxford, either. Wittgenstein's arrival at C-bridge was a big deal. In the US, the war against Nazism and the publicization of the Holocaust began to make anti-Semitism les acceptable in public discourse, at least in national politics. But it was still common if not dominant. In the US, most historians place the Six Days War as the real turning point after which it became really impolitic to be openly anti-Semitic. Certainly that was the moment in which the more conservative evangelical Christians began to identify in some ways with the State of Israel.
There is a debate in environmental history circles over the relationship between theology and the emergence of environmental activism. High Church Protestants are vastly overrepresented in the US Clubs and movements (i.e., Sierra Club), and evangelicals and fundamentalists are vastly under-represented. How much of that turns on theology and how much is a matter of class and cultural differences is open to debate. But for most of the 20th century folks like Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, and Southern Methodists seem to have been dramatically under-represented in North American mountaineering.
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DMBARN
Trad climber
Modesto
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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Having been an observer of these religious threads for many years I have been tempted to join in but have always thought better of it because of the absolute vitriol that usually accompanies so much of them. I’ve had great respect for the Christians who contributed but even some of them become part of the mud slinging and I’m reminded of Franklin’s famous remark about he who lies down with dogs rises with flees. More germane to this thread are Jesus’ words of caution when he said, “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet….” from Matthew 7 (and no, I’m not calling anyone a dog or a pig). Could no one wait for at least a few believers to make their professions before you jumped in? If you recall the “climber nurses” thread there were few non nurses who contributed. But not when it comes to faith. So many of you are so predictable you should be embarrassed.
As for me, I accepted Christ when I was 20 a long time ago. I wasn’t one of those people who had totally screwed up their lives and was at the bottom with no where else to go. Something just wasn’t right and I found myself one night in Church with a friend and found myself looking up when the alter call came. Coming to know Christ can happen in a thousand different ways and that was mine. No bells or whistles, no drama, no tears, just a sense that this felt really right. I had my years of backsliding and realized after far too long that I had wasted precious time. Nothing works better than a Christ centered life (as we as humans can manage it). I’ve never been a really “feely” kind of person. Most of my life has been lived through my thinking process which is why I gravitated toward C.S.Lewis early on and now I listen quite a bit to Ravi Zacharias and Chuck Missler.
Keep this in mind; you have no complaint, criticism or outrage against Christians that the Lord has not had first and with far more justification. He’s also far more articulate in expressing those complaints. Yours are downright petty compared to His. Read the Bible if you want to know his thoughts on the matter. Yet He died for us “While we were still sinners….” (Rom 5:8).
If He can forgive us, then why can’t you? Search your hearts, the law (your conscious) is written there whether you admit it or not. If it doesn’t resonate then you are either lying to yourself or have so hardened your heart over the years you can no longer feel it.
Believe me; I am completely sympathetic to lots of the complaints on this forum. There are things going on in the life of the church that grieve God (and I’m one of them). He will have an answer for those. In the meantime look to Him (Jesus) “for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
If this seems too harsh, well this is a tough crowd is it not? You can handle it.
And like it or not, I am praying for all of you…..
Douglas
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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I could go into great detail about my Christian upbringing, The Jesus Movement of SoCal, my coming to Yeshua HaMashiakh (Jesus Christ The Messiah) as my Lord and Savior, my slipping away becoming the Prodigal Son, my redemption through the forgiving grace of Yeshua and coming back to Hashem Adonai Elohim (G_D) and continuing onward, but the details and stories are varied, interesting, and long. So I won't go into all that detail.
However, recently I found a spiritual home where it all seems to come together in the most spiritual, fulfilling, loving, and intellectually sound way. Also recently I have found that I have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. It all makes sense now. Today I attend a Messianic Judaic Synagogue. I am learning leaps and bounds (in depth meaning I never knew, Hebrew, Davidic dancing, the Feasts, The Torah, honoring Shabbat, etc. etc.) and going way beyond my foundational yet simple Christian Pagan upbringing. We have a surfing Rabbi who is incredibly gifted with deep love and wisdom, knows and raised in the Judaic Faith, knows Hebrew, and knows Yeshua as his personal Lord, Savior, and the promised Messiah.
The Judeo-Christian Faith are really one. Messianic Judaism. Imagine what the early Christian church was like. They were Judaic Jews who came to know the Messiah. Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles worshiping together. Keeping the Judaic roots. They accepted the next piece of the puzzle -- Yeshua -- and their faith was complete. There you have it.
Our Christian faith is Jewish. We read a Jewish Bible. Our Lord and Savior,Yeshua HaMashiakh, is Jewish. Who better to go to than the Jews that have come back to Elohim by the saving grace and spiritual acknowledgement that Yeshua is indeed the promised Messiah? ---> Messianic Judaism.
I also have made peace with science and G_D. They are both right. The Book of Nature, and The Book of G_D are in agreement. The Universe is old, 13.7 Billion years old. The Sun is about 5 Billion years old. The Earth is 4.56 Billion years old etc. etc. etc.
However, as a believer you won't understand this unless you read the whole Bible, including The Book of Enoch, The Book of Secrets of Enoch, books that the early Christian Church had, read, studied, and even quoted from. Jesus himself said "You do err, not knowing the scriptures" and then went into explaining that there won't be marriage in Heaven. Where did he get that doctrine? The Book of Enoch. He called the Book of Enoch Scripture. The Book of Enoch and The Book of Secretes of Enoch go far more into depth regarding Creation. The Book of Secrets of Enoch go into detail on the 2 very long ages of Light and Darkness (The Big Bang, which by the way wasn't big and didn't go bang) before the Universe formed in its final form. Genesis was allegorical and a very brief summary of the Book of Enoch and The Book of Secrets of Enoch. The Books of Enoch, and he wrote 366 books, were far before Moses day, yet were passed down from generation to generation. There were Homo Genus species separate from and prior to Homo sapiens that were carnal that didn't have an eternal soul, the breath of G_D, the spirit of G_D, that were not made in G_D's image as we were. Homo sapien, man, Adam, is the one made in G_D's image. We have many qualities like G_D. We are fashioned after him. The other Homo Genus species were not. Even the Jewish Talmud speaks of this.
By the way, Moses was a climber. John the Baptist was a climber. Jesus was a climber. You can't climb the mountains they did and spend the amount of time in the wilderness as they did and not climb.
If you really want to know more and also how important Israel is to the World and what exactly is the Abrahamic covenant, then I really recommend these resources . . .
Promised Land: Israel through the Eyes of Surfers
http://promisedlandthemovie.com/
Purchase both the DVD & Study guide together here:
https://store2.bandfarm.com/walkingonwater/product/?catID=18&prodID=3907
Israel Inside: How a Small Nation Makes a Big Difference
http://www.israelinsidethemovie.com/
I'll leave you with this, and its even Climbing related! One of my favorite Oden Fong songs from The Jesus Movement days. It rocks and its inspirational! Enjoy.
Oden Fong - Come for the Children - White Eagle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRW6gtnAkF4
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Thanks, Douglas, for your post.
I think that many non-Christians overlook the rather unique issues that being both a Christian and a climber sometimes raise. Other Christian climbers have started threads like this, only to give up in the face of criticism to the effect that "why do we need a thread like this here. This is a climbers' forum, not a Christians' forum."
Life can be perplexing when we're guided to offer our lives as living sacrifices. Paul didn't differentiate between our "religious" life and our "secular" life. In fact, I see a heresy to which the contemporary popular Christian church seems particularly prone, that I will call a utilitarianism. Under this view, the only thing that matters is what I am doing outwardly to promote the Kingdom. If, for example, I spend a couple of hours practicing a Beethoven piano sonata for the artistic pleasure it gives, that's secular, worldly, and bad. If, in contrast, I spend a couple of hours practicing insipid praise songs for church, that's Godly Kingdom work.
Baloney! If God has our whole lives, then everything we do is sacred, not secular. That goes for climbing, too. If I try to be an excellent climber, that pursuit of excellence is one way that I praise God, and make my life a living sacrifice. J.S. Bach believed that everything he wrote was for the glory of God, whether it was the St. Matthew Passion or the Coffee Cantata. As a climber and a human being, I feel the same way about everything I try to do.
John
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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If, in contrast, I spend a couple of hours practicing insipid praise songs for church, that's Godly Kingdom work.
theological questions aside, the folks who believe that are clearly going to the wrong church
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Sam E
Boulder climber
Malibu
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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I fell in love with a christian girl. Read the bible to understand her world. She broke it of with a bible passage about being evenly yoked (thanks a lot Corinthians). Now Jesus is my homeboy.
The Smithsonian put out a very informative six part miniseries titled Decoding Christianity.
I recommend it to believers and non believers alike.
I like to think of the different religions as languages. I'm multilingual.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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Good retort, klk. I did not mean to imply that all (or even most) praise songs are inherently insipid, any more than more traditional hymns are. There are a great many that I love both to sing and, sometimes, simply to listen to. I do, however, still find amusement in the joke about the prototypical praise song: one word, two notes and three hours.
John
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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the folks who believe that are clearly going to the wrong church
the folks whom john describes-- those who believe insipid praise music is godly -- are clearly going to the wrong church.
probably listening to gram parsons do gospel. heh.
sorry, my main contribution to this thread so far has been to post example after example of good gospel or explicitly christian music that will help brother spider and the rest of the pilgrims find their way out of the insipid praise music/emo country wilderness.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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personally, I think incantations are just as cool as gospel music
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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Yes, I know these are more important to our mutual survival than is the matter of what an individual believes.
I think you might want to reread this statement and ponder for a moment, I think you will find that it is self contradicting. I am not sure how you can separate them. One’s world view typically effects and drives the inner machine and how we interface with the world at large.
On a different note I understand much of the vitriolic spraying. There is much about how “American Christianity” is molded, modeled and practiced that leaves me shaking my head. As this is about “Christianity” and not a comparative study I resist responding in kind. In fact I find much of this funny, if not tragic. It is also obvious when it comes to preachers this thread has no shortage.
John Wayne is not my hero, nor do I see Pashtun Tribesmen my enemy. I do not believe the sky is falling, though I do know things do fall from the sky. Not all Christians disconnect their intellect at the doors of the sanctuary – here as an example: “Professor Henry F. (Fritz) Schaefer is one of the most distinguished physical scientists in the world”. http://www.leaderu.com/offices/schaefer/
P.S.: locker I have the gift interpretation and I know what Popeye is saying
“ yur …………………….Gonna …………………….Live” Now aint that a surprize
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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So are you now saying that Jesus himself would rebuke them folks above in the you toob flick you submitted as not partaking in Godly music?
what? are you talking about the rev. glenn lee? or the del mccoury?
i personally love glenn lee's music. that particular video is of an especially famous praise jam which i why i thought it worth posting despite the obvious poor quality of the tape.
the original post to this thread-- and the thread title-- are a reference to a song by gram parsons: "i like the christian life," recorded by the byrds on their sweethearts of the rodeo album. this thread is partly spun off from still another thread in which we were energetically debating the merits of parsons as a songwriter and performer. i personally am not a fan of the way that parsons sweetened a lot of honky tonk and gospel music by flattening out the rhythms and getting rid of the southern or texan or afro-american accents in the singing voices. and since this thread was turning (predictably) nasty, i've been posting examples of "gospel" music that i find a helluva lot better than the title song in the op. if nothing else, it ought to provide a bit of uplift in the soundtrack. and it lets me go to the happy place for a few minutes in between my stints of file transferring and other grim bureaucratic tasks im doing online this week.
yr question-- would god or jesus approve of this or that particular kind of music --is actually relevant. but it would take at least another post to respond.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Aug 17, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
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When it comes to music this is the requirment
Psalm 100:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands. Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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Psalms, Issaiah, and Exodus are usually the references, although there a plenty throughout the Old Testament. Not so many in the New.
"Trumpet" is the most common image.
Psalm 150:3 and Isaiah 58:1 were the ones I heard most as a kid.
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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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Aug 17, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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Colossians 3:16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you,with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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thanks for the link, tobia. i tried to put it up earlier but it wouldn't embed so i gave up.
one thing to be said in parsons's favor was his affection for the louvin brothers: christian life, cash, satan's jewel crown.
he helped to make that stuff accessible to folks more familiar with judy collins. his covers were almost always smoother, sweeter, and more pop than the originals.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 17, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
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Cool post, Klimmer. I immediately noticed that you know the Lord by some of his ancient Hebrew names like Adonai and Elohim and indeed even Jeshua.
My favourite name for God is Yahweh, which is a loose anglicization of the ancient Hebrew name which curiously lacks in vowels: YHWH meaning "I am who I am"
I also know him as Abba.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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Not sure which version klk finds contemptible, maybe both(?)
tobia, i don't like either version as well as like the original. not that it was ever a favorite louvin brothers song of mine anyway. the caveat is that i love clarence white's playing. not just for the virtuosity but also because it's pretty much most of the rhythmic interest on the entire album.
(both versions--although the caveat is that i have them only on cd-- not sure if the archive release was ever done on vinyl.)
i dont like the top-fortying of the vocals. taking the redneck twang out of honky tonk and gospel made it a lot more accessible to mainline audiences and to young white audiences, especially north of the mason-dixon or wealthy enough -- like gram --to speak or sing in "standard english." for those audiences that was a good thing, because the louvin brothers sounded like white trash. of course, those folks all think i sounded like white trash, too.
so as much as i appreciate the best of gp's singing (for my money, that'd be his duet with emmy on love hurts), each time he opened his mouth on vinyl he sounded like a rich kid to me.
and this isn't thread drift, because along with "lift up your voice like a trumpet" i learned that "it's easier for a fat man to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven."
heh
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Aug 17, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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This all started w/ the Kennedys;....smoking pot in the White House, sleeping w/movie stars, driving drunk off of bridges;...that's what we get for putting an Irish Catholic in the White House....(Am I on the right thread......).....
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
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tobia, sorry, i didnt see yr alan jackson post.
jackson has always been a good performer, has a good voice and keeps a super competent band. things were so grim on the airwaves by the late eighties-- alan jackson or clint black songs were like little oases. those two were about as far as the programmers were willing to go, aside from an occasional dwight yoakum number.
i never heard a "country" station play dwight and kd's cover of the parsons-hillman gospel tune--
possibly because of the fear of lesbians
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 17, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
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These have been some truly interesting reads. And I hate the word interesting, because it's so common. Maybe that's the trouble with the bible for lots of folks.
It's so well-known, so common, and so easy to misinterpret.
The testifying that's gone on here is nice to hear since I have background in the Pentecostal movement in the Catholic religion. I said earlier that peer pressure makes some of our brothers and sisters claim that which they have not received as a gift. They become envious.
If you have a story to tell, don't let it be too strange. You will not be believed. Yet they talk in tongues and I go along with that. As I say, I wonder at much in the world. Tongues is a gift I'd sooner do without, however.
Getting back to what I was saying, some of you folks are deeply convinced and committed to following Jesus. I want you to know that my brother-in-law from my first marriage is a deacon in the Catholic religion, and he is one of the best people I know. He comes across as pushy or sanctimonious to some of our mutual acquaintances, but I feel his heart is purely concerned with others or he would not have accepted orders. I climbed with him and worked with him. He's a dedicated man with a loving wife who is equally dedicated. I am guilty of envy, I guess. I hope I am not too much of a hypocrite, based on what I have said earlier, but I suffer from the common factor among all of us: I'm human, trying to be something more. Ain't gonna work.
Marlow, thanks for Bird on a Wire. That was lovely.
Edit: I cannot truly say I "hate" a word, but I allatime see "interesting" over-used by lazy writers who won't check their thesauri. I was told that to curse or hate inanimate objects (i.e. words) is stupid because it indicates ignorance...
I'd like to add that that Bach family: such insipid music!!!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 17, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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Another apropros musical interlude, fortunately sans trumpets, bongo drums, and other heathenish racket:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Hey, two billion people hummed along to it last week.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 17, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
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Hey Ya'all's....something to think about...I read all about the bad experiences with christian denominations. I will tell ya the church was perfect until man walked in. Sometimes you have to take your beliefs one on one without intervention. The Bible was not written for any one religious denomination yet seems to most it was. That is so wrong. It is a stand alone document. Don't let others try and interpret it for you. I prefer to ask technical questions to scholars who will not shade info towards one denomination but give you the best answer. Research for yourself and do not let others do it for you.
I will leave you with this... compared to all other religions/belief systems...the bible contains more archeological evidence of accuracy then any other that is known...bam
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 17, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Mormanism places emphasis on the vibrancy, strength, and burliness of JC, eschewing images of Him suffering on the cross, popular in protestant and catholic observances.
The impending debate about what form of Christendom is better/purer than the others, is no different then the battle between the Sunni's and Shiites in Southwest Asia that is killing hundreds by the day.
Complete ego centered insane dogma. Typical humnanness at it's best, regardless what religion it is.
A complete misinterpretation of this sentence. I merely mentioned a religion that putatively encourages physical strength, etc., like muscular christianity. What impending debate?
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
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here is one my personal favorites, in regards to worship/praise music. recorded at a youth
group service somewhere, they (Sleeping Giant) played at our church a few years back!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
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A complete misinterpretation of this sentence. I merely mentioned a religion that putatively encourages physical strength, etc., like muscular christianity. What impending debate?
john, i missed that post. i had to look at the time stamp on your quote to learn that it was the chief who responded to you.
i think the chief is posting from a low oxygen environment.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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from my favorite hippy gospel album
and one of my favorite protestant versions of the passion
[Click to View YouTube Video]
i believe the images are of lee hazlewood in his lat years rip
lee hazlewood's 1969 version:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Aug 18, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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Maybe Steve Vai IS GOD?
one of the greatest guitar ballads ever written...
[youtube=mDZuNM3HmU4&feature=relmfu]
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 18, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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good for you.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 18, 2012 - 12:39am PT
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Tobia-- "Why Me Lord?"
Awesome KK testimony, thanks!!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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Always enjoyed Elvis. He did a great Xmas album back in the early 60s. Wonderful singing voice.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 19, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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One day i did this hard core christian climbing buddy a favor and drove his son Daniel to christian day school...On the drive down to Bishop , Daniel told me that he loved Satan and hated cops...Now there's a kid after my heart....
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2012 - 02:06am PT
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Cragman, I'm hoping to hear your testimony. This thread was inspired when I saw another giving you a hard time. I did not like that even though I usually like that other person.
The positive posts on this thread are very powerful. Read them.
Ignore the disrespectful stuff. It's a test. Turn the other cheek.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 19, 2012 - 05:59am PT
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Well, this is a pretty lively topic, one which has piqued my INTEREST.
Why Me? Great question, Kris. Totally rhetorical, I have a feeling. But the song's moving and makes me feel a little ashamed. There have been lots of tests, sure, in my life. I have done little to merit reward from a higher power and much to earn censorship from those stern enough to pass judgement. But I have had great gifts, too. Whom to thank? I prefer to thank God. I shouldn't need a Jesus.
That doesn't matter to Jesus, supposedly. He's ready to forgive us on our deathbeds. And the Church is empowered to grant indulgences anyway (more hypocrisy).
Why, then, Jesus? Again, totally rhetorical.
The dog-moms in parochial school taught us with a straight face that suicide and blaspheming the Holy Spirit were the worst sins. Well, that's OK. I believe in God, which is harder to do than not believe in Him. This doesn't mean what I said earlier about being a diagnostic awetheist is crap, because I am a lot of times amazed at what I have seen in the world. I am completely open to the idea of a creator; whether He or She is sticking around to help out when we ask for help is anyone's guess, because even if you never ask, you sometimes get, in spite of it.
I have found that God's generous. Just don't carp too much about crosses to bear. I know I groused a lot about not having my left thumb. I know about trials. It's not necessary to know why. It is necessary to get over things and live your lives. You've heard the last of my thumb, I hope. If nothing else comes of this topic, I am relieved of the burden of worrying about that. God's mysterious and that is what I like. It's almost a game, in fact. And you folks are playing, no matter how you feel about Christianity, Islam, Do-Goodism, or part-time Commies.
And like the dude said in Wayne's World...I love you guys and gals. You treat each other well.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 19, 2012 - 06:56am PT
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Cragman, Glad to see you on this thread.
At the beginning of this thread I referred to another thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1014715&tn=60
so that I wouldn't have to repost my own testimonial. To make it a little easier, My posts are 70, 81, 87, 100.
Cragman at one time had an amazing story to tell on that thread; but it is now deleted, as many posts on that thread were. I wish there was a copy of your posts on that thread. That is another example what Christianity is about
Christianity has not solved my problem of depression; but it has provided hope. I struggle with the "Christian Life"; because life to me is a struggle.
The song; which many people here probably perceive as another one of those messages where believing in Jesus is a "fix all" or a life where you no longer have any troubles and always have a silly grin on your face. Liking the Christian life,IMO, means you embrace God, accept that we are all hopeless sinners and that you see through the premise that what we experience now is not "the living end". There are bigger things than instant gratification.
I sin daily. I sin when I pray; because I pray for death a lot. Seems hypocritical doesn't? Mentioning hope, faith and praying for death is bizarre; I admit it. But as I said I am human; and a very weak or sick one. I know I shouldn't pray for death; I know that is an empty prayer, a selfish prayer; but I also pray for forgiveness. In other words I have faith that in the end it will be ok. It has to do with brain chemistry (I guess). I don't know what it is; but without faith I wouldn't be here to wrote these words.
People perceive Christianity as a crutch, a sign of weakness and dope for the weak. Faith. (not religion or church) is hardly that. You can't measure Christianity by what you see on television, in politics, or by the actions of someone you know and you certainly can't take the historical travesties committed in the name of Christ or "the church" as a definitive measure of what being a Christian means.
Christianity doesn't make you perfect, it doesn't make you better than anyone else. We are all human and humans make mistakes. It is a life work, one where you stumble, backslide and get back up. It provides hope.
The Bible is a manual for life. None greater on this earth. If you follow it or study it; it doesn't make you a believer in fairy tells nor does it debunk science. Any one with any intelligence, can live and believe in both. It isn't a novel. It is a manual.
If there is no God in your life; perhaps one day you will discover there is one, you just haven't accepted the fact. Some won't. Those that associate God and Christ with what they see outside themselves are wearing blinders. Those that don't believe are caught up in themselves, their strengths and gifts (that really aren't theirs). You might hone them; but you didn't create them.
cosmic-cman posted the most important premise of the short version of what Christianity is all about. Thanks.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 19, 2012 - 06:58am PT
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hey there say, all...
i usually just keep on being a mama and a gramma, and share with folks that hurt... (as we all know how hurts need hugs) ... :)
well, i just stopped in tonight, well--this morning, as the case-now-be's, to say this for ol' cosmic, first:
as to your quote:
Looks like I am the first to respond.
I AM a Christian, but I follow no Denomination.
I try to follow the TWO Commandments to the
best of my ability, but don't always succeed at that
because I DO have my FAULTS.
1. Love GOD with all my heart, soul and mind.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
I may talk about God, but I don't try to
change another persons, BELIEF.
That, I leave to the Lord.
Cosmic
i remember when you first welcomed me here, cosmic (talked on the phone)... and you were true to form, as to this... very kind... :)
(hugs to donna, this eve) :)
and say, as to jody:
say, jody, as to prayers...
me too--
i never thought it was an insult to say: 'i'm praying for you' meaning this, folks:
to me: if i say i am praying for you, or wishing you well, it simply means this:
(please understand) :)
it means, to me:
i love you enough to say, equally:
"i am sharing my food with you... "
"i am sharing my precious basic needs with you..."
"i am sharing my hopes and dreams of all to be well with you..."
i care enough about you to share whatever is important to me (the prayers), that helps me get through the storms, that i will overflow these to YOU too:
as in--the ol' climbs when troubles come:
hey buddy!!!
i'm sharing my ledge...
i'm sharing my tent... my food, my jacket... i'm sharing my life...
i am sharing my prayers...
i sure hope you will be well and safe, soon...
:)
(but that is me--sure would never mean to be above anyone--just careing to give what i can, the only way i can... what i give to my own loved ones, i now give to you--which is also: my TIME... my time to stop doing whatever else i am doing, and put you, first, as a good buddy would do, as anyone would do for friends...
:)
sure hope that sheds some new light, perhaps... :)
*very interesting stuff going on here, as to all the thoughts and shares... oh my...
well--that's it for me,now, carry on :)...
everyman's life is his own... and we all share what we believe, as it just kind of comes out of us, naturally, like milk from a cow...
well:
like, water, from wells... :)
me:
i am not any 'religion' etc... (a friend once shared the 'so called jesus way' and it was wonderful, so i just stayed on the ol' trail...
i just love god/jesus as my say, due to the help and love that i have felt from this way of praying, through all my years of hopeing my little babies would make it into adulthood... and they did... and they have 'flown the coop' now...
so now, my happiness and such, i keep in god/jesus, as, i am grateful for those years that were treasured and turned out well, though i had many a storm due to my 'now ex' in the midst of it... (whew, so glad i had a nice hand-hold with god, for an anchor, then) :)
well.........
love and god bless to all, this good supertopo eve,
(ooops---morning, i mean) :)
*ps, did not get to read all of these yet, most likely will backtrack, when i can, :)
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 08:20am PT
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I love you guys and gals.
Mr. Mouse - We Love You Too, Man!!
:)
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Aug 19, 2012 - 08:32am PT
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Spider wasn't ramming anything down anyone's throat when he started the thread. He asked some simple questions to a specific group
You're right. I'm sorry Spider.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2012 - 09:59am PT
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Thank you Sierra-L-R.
Yes this is the anti-Ramming, Mucho-respect thread.
Go-B and others who like to post long passages from scripture on other threads. I feel like that is ramming. It doesn't help anyone.
A good sermon should inspire people to get over their troubles in life and inspire them to face and build a better future. It should be left to professionals who are trained to do this.
The best thing a non-professional can do is open his heart and testify. Good testimony should not ramble, that is why I provided the formula in the OP.
As mentioned earlier, those who have testified provided very moving statements. On the Politics-Religion thread, people spew at each other and it is commonly said that those statements are a waste because the change nobody -- True.
I believe that the right statement in the right place can create a positive affect on others. Earlier in this thread The Cosmic Cragsman made his testimony. I was changed for the better by reading that simple statement.
I have also experienced personal and lasting change by reading the other testimonies in this thread. I have a greater feeling of respect and understanding for these people. I feel the love that is the core of what works about Christianity.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Hey, everyone. Splitter just made my day!
Thanks, buddy. I sure needed that...
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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can't fake faith, One has it or one does not.
i'll believe it when I can put my finger in the spear wound.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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Mouse, You are so welcome, man!
And thanks for acknowledging that!
You in turn just made my day!
We be buds, for life know, bro!!
:)
edit: t*r, it is all about LOVE...unconditional LOVE!!
"You shall love your neighbor, as you love yourself."
Your neighbor is everyone you come into contact with. Ultimately, that could be anyone in the world.
Itisall about the two Great Commandments, just like CosmicCragsman posted!
Love God with all your heart -- Love your neighbor as yourself
We all have to work at it. All of our lives. And someone you love, you will also forgive! Otherwise you are not loving them!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 19, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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So learn to type using another finger, already. Sheesh!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 19, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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hey there say, johnEleazarian....
as to this small quote:
As my best friend since first grade (and still my best earthly friend other than my wife) said: "Something happened to you. You're different."
say, you know (yes, i KNOW you know)--it is SO TRUE... :)
and that 'peace that passes understanding' is what so many see, as well...
thank you for post about your family... and how the anchor of god
has been your stay through thick and thin, and storms that blow...
i am eternaly greatful for him in my life, for too many reasons,
so deep....
god bless...
:)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 19, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
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We'll forgive you and just try to love what's left over!
Midget digits ain't cool.
Christ was a carpenter, bent all kinds of nails.
Then He became a fisherman and filled up Peter's sails.
I love you, Rock, said the Lord.
Then He chucked him overboard.
How much do you love me now, Peto?
Remember, this is only a test.
I love Christ like a brother. Can do no more.
As they say in Wayne's World, "We're not worthy."
Turns out its OK to be unworthy. It's everyone's lot if you buy into original sin, which I much don't. Can't take the fall for the Fall.
I like the Christian music I like because I like John Fahey, Christopher Parkening, and Doc Watson, all of whom rely on hymns as part of their gigs.
In Christ There Is No East of West (JF). Simple Gifts (CP).
And this one, a favorite, done by Doc and reprised here on this mellow Sunday morning (now afternoon).
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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t*r -- i like this a lot:
WOW! That IS really awesome.
I like it a lot, also!
Thanks, t*r!!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 19, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
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This topic is growing just like a mustard seed, innit?
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Mr. Cragman,
Sorry to here about your finger tip. That sounds painful along with being bloody. Maybe if it doesn't stop bleeding by manana ya should have it looked at. Hope you won't need a skin graft. Certainly don't wanna get it infected. Redness + heat...I'm sure your familiar with all that, eh!
edit: MM (Mr. Mouse) Yep, just like mustard seed! ;)
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 19, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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Awesome testimony, Dean!
That is really special that Keith Green led you to the Lord, and that you got to see him before he passed away at such a young age. He died not long after you saw him. He was my favorite performer during that time. I never did get to see him, thought i had forever to do so, then suddenly he was gone. Plane crash, if i correctly recall!
edit: btw, beautiful song, dat! thanx!!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Aug 19, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Dean,
Thanks for sharing. It's funny you mention Keith Green, his music has been very pivotal in my walk at certain times. His death was one that like the death of a president you will always remember where you were when you heard the news. I was at Forest Home High School Camp when I heard. There was a sense of shock but also a great sense of peace and thankfulness for his life.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 19, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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I was losing patience with all the filth and ridicule on this thread by all the dudes with shallow jabs and unsolicited hatred. But I've gotten some great e-mails and have enjoyed reading the last few posts.
Lets take this hijacked thread back. Keep the stories and testimonies of the christian faith comin yall. I'll post up a couple more soon. We had a great sermon on Paul's persecution in Philipi today. May his boldness empower you guys in the coming days. Read Philippians 2:19-24 today if you want to know what persecution is really about. Bring it on says I.
See you around,
Scott
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Aug 19, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
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Keep the stories and testimonies of the christian faith comin yall
umm ..............
and..from the original op. whatever faith that may post here, be proud of who they are being for a moment.
Recently, i attended a Bat Mitzvah and was very moved by the Beautiful ceremony...It made me want to go to Synagogue.
I would like to hear some stories from different faiths... Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, Jewish..etc... if that's ok.....anyone?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 19, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Cool post, Klimmer. I immediately noticed that you know the Lord by some of his ancient Hebrew names like Adonai and Elohim and indeed even Jeshua.
My favourite name for God is Yahweh, which is a loose anglicization of the ancient Hebrew name which curiously lacks in vowels: YHWH meaning "I am who I am"
I also know him as Abba.
Pete,
Yep. That is The Name Of G_D. :-))
My favourite name for God is Yahweh, which is a loose anglicization of the ancient Hebrew name which curiously lacks in vowels: YHWH meaning "I am who I am"
The Hebrew letters for YHWH purposefully leave out the vowels so we don't write the actual name of G_D or pronounce it. To be honest, Orthodox Jews have forgotten how to properly pronounce the name of G_D correctly. Another reason they steer away from trying to pronounce his real name now.
This comes from the commandment not to use the Lord's name in vain.
I didn't know all this until I recently started attending a Messianic Synagogue. You can pronounce the name of G_D in private alone in prayer, but we aren't supposed to say it publically out of respect for G_D and not to offend our fellow brothers and sisters in the faith, no matter if your Christian, Messianic Jew or Gentile, or devout Judaic Jew.
The Complete Jewish Bible, includes the OT and NT! goes into all of this. Great Bible and study guide. It goes into all the different names of G_D and what they mean, including YHWY: Hashem = the name not spoken, Adonai = Lord, Elohim = the plurality G_D of G_D The Father, G_D The Son, and G_D The Holy Ghost, but they are one.
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Jewish-Bible-OE-David-Stern/dp/1880226480/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345417768&sr=1-1&keywords=the+complete+jewish+bible
By the way, the translator for the complete Jewish Bible from UCLA is Dr. David H. Stern. He specifically says about himself in the back of the book, that along with being a professor at UCLA, he's a mountain-climber, and co-author on a book on surfing, and owner of a health food store.
He has since retired and done aliyah and is now living in Israel with his wife. Anyway, great Bible for everyone. The understanding and roots of your faith will grow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah
:-))
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Aug 19, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
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Thanks for that story Cragman, I am left touched, moved and inspired. Jude
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Aug 19, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
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Believing is like a bow tie. You spend half your life thinking they look silly. But then you put one on and you feel cool in it. But most everyone else still thinks you look silly. Bow tie or not, you are cool with me.
:-)
jb
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 19, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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Right on Nita. I was just trying to steer the thread back onto faith. I forgot to look at the original post.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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Jingy,
We don't know.
There may be another chance where all things we perceive as unjust, G_D is way ahead of us and has already considered and has made a way.
When Yeshua, Jesus Christ, died on the cross and before his resurrection on the 3rd day later, he went to Hades to preach.
Maybe Yeshua will do that for all people throughout history who had no possible opportunity to hear the good word, to hear about Yeshua, and for those people to hear the good word and to make a choice.
We don't know, but I'd like to think so. Why would he go to Hades to preach between his death and resurrection? He was victorious and he finished the job that the Father Elohim sent him to do. The price had been paid for sin and now for eternity. He could go to Hades and rescue those who never knew him and never had an opportunity. I'd like to think so.
Did Christ Descend Into Hell?
by Lambert Dolphin
http://www.ldolphin.org/descend.html
These are deep theological questions and are not easily answered.
But the day of Salvation is today. If you are hearing the Good News, respond to it, and ask forgiveness and let Yeshua come into your heart and change you anew. Be born again. We aren't promised tomorrow.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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No offense, but I don't recall even asking to be.
Therefore, it's not my fault. IE, no guilt.
Be what may, I didn't do it. Nobody ever asked me. WHY am I?
Rude Cosmic Bastards. I was one with The Universe.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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O.K. Here is my story. It may sound weird, but it is true. My mother was a Catholic and my father was raised Baptist. Dad was also a research scientist, so he threw away the theology and kept the morals. Mom just went with the flow. I grew up in the Bay Area in the sixties and seventies and toyed with all sorts of ideas about religion and spirituality and even mysticism. Experience is what finally defined my foundation for religious experience. Once when I was about seventeen, I was attempting some form of meditation that I had read about. Meditation always seemed like a practical way to get that mystical and spiritual experience iwas seeking. I got very relaxed and was trying to "peel the onion" so to speak to find my inner essence. That is when I got this message. Not a voice but a message. It merely said, "find my son". It took me a while to understand the significance, but it was a powerful experience that I could not just push aside. I haven't quite found him but I think I'm getting closer.
I posted this in 2008 on another thread. If one compares that with what I had said earlier in this thread you can see that I have made some personal discoveries. As some others have pointed out, these personal discoveries are important to the so-called Christian Life. Personally I don't think Jesus requires the public praises and affirmations that we attempt. That is a social identification construct that we feel is important, and if it helps you, then go ahead.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:25am PT
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IIRC, the bible tells the christians to proselytize and spread the good word, plus that the believers should welcome the skepticism if not worse of the heathens, not to mention the good-humoured sallies of us virtuous pagans. Indeed, many of them seem to have a martyr complex - they positively revel in criticism if not abuse. So notwithstanding those who say otherwise, isn't it helping complete the supposed divine mission if we occasionally respond appropriately to their sometimes irritating, smug, self-righteous, vainglorious behaviour? Whatever the cowhuggers and such might say about it?
Looking at it another way, no satan, no god.
Exposure to Jesuits causes one to think this way.
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Aug 20, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
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After being captivated by many of the responses and diverse opinions in this
thread I thought that you know I have a story too. So here it goes.
When I was in high school, my track coach was a part time evangelist.
He was speaking at a Baptist Church in Pearl Mississippi and he invited me attend.
I accepted his invitation and was deeply touched by his message.
At the end of the service, he invited anyone in the congregation to step forward and dedicate their lives to Christ.
I walked up to that pulpit and shook my coaches’ hand.
He asked me, “Olaf, Do accept Jesus as your savior?”
I said, “Yes!”
Brother Renfro, the resident pastor of that church asked if I would attend the service
on the following night and I agreed!
I was filled with the power of the Holly Spirit all the next day and I was eager to
be back in that sanctuary worshiping just as hard as I possibly could!
When I arrived at East Gate Baptist Church that evening I was handed a bulletin with the
evening’s agenda printed on it.
It had reference scriptures that the evening’s message was based on.
It listed all the hymns we were to sing and where they could be found in the hymnal that was on the back of every pew.
I found something interesting on the back page of that bulletin.
There was a notice of a baptism to take place that evening and the person to be baptized was none other than ME!
I was shocked!
I found that pastor and pulled him away from what he was doing ( The Lords Work,
I’m sure) and I started to explain that I was a Methodist and that I was christened as an infant and that I was already saved !
Well now this created a glitch in the evenings schedule and since I was the
only one that they had online for the end of the show, he started to council
me very sternly!
He said" Olaf, If you are not baptized in front of this church tonight and if a car runs you down and kills you while you are walking home.
Son, You are going to HELL!"
I was shocked!
My response to him as I walked out of that place was "I'll see you there!"
Well I wasn't dunked under the water of that aquarium shrouded behind
those purple velvet drapes right behind the pulpit of that church in front of all those people that night!
None the less the words of my evangelistic track coach had real a real impact on me.
I followed up and continued to try to conduct myself in a Christian manner.
I continued to try and set a positive example in my community and at school.
Through this period I was influenced by some very powerful people that felt had the same thoughts and opinions about the love of Jesus Christ as I did.
One evening while attending an event sponsored by the church that my family had attended for generations (My grandfather built the prayer rail and alter in the sanctuary of that building) I was once again touched by the Holy Spirit!
This event was not an assembly of preachers but they were everyday people like me. They were from all walks of life and had by invitation traveled from all over the southern states to share their dynamic lay witnesses with us.
The emotion generated by these guests from had a powerful affect on me.
At the end of the program an invitation was issued to any one that would that would like
to speak.
I was terrified but felt that I had something that desperately needed to be said.
I am really not positive what it was that I said that night but there wasn't a dry eye
in the house!
After that evening I started receiving invitations with travel expenses from churches from all over the south to come and share my story with the youth of their churches.
I must admit that during that period I had some very powerful experiences that still affect
me and the way I view myself and the world around me to this very day.
This went on for quite awhile and nearly every weekend I was off to somewhere in Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, Tennessee, and all over the state of Mississippi.
I met a vast amount of really great people and had a wonderful time basking in my new found celebrity status while sharing what Christ meant to me in my everyday life.
Then In Bastrop, Louisiana in a prime time worship service I was introduced
and walked up in front of all those people that had come to hear what I had
to say.
I stood there terrified and these words came out of my mouth,
"I am a hypocrite!"
I never stepped foot in another church for many years after that day!
I started questioning allot of things about organized religion.
I respect that the population needs to belong to and believe in something.
I do believe in the higher power that is in every person. "God"
Many times I have been in perilous situations and in sheer desperation after
I had exhausted all mortal avenues and resources I have lifted my head to
the sky and said "God Help Me!" and you know what, He did!
Perhaps it's like the guy that was able to lift the car in a life and death
situation, who knows?
I do know that there are channels of indefinable power and strength in each
of us.
That’s all I got to say about that.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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The so called Christians say:
"You got one life"
If you blow it you go to hell eternally.
If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior then you go to heaven eternally.
I ain't buying that ever!
They even let prisoners out of jail to try again after their term is over ......
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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Good call Braun...When Jesus was dying on the cross he let those 2 thiefs next to him off the hook..But then again they hadn't stolen any tents...
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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Werner, Not exactly the way it works (written in the Bible).
I will try in a bit; not up to it now. Anyone else?
When Jesus was dying on the cross he let those 2 thiefs next to him off the hook...
Wrong. Jesus forgave one of the two men being crucified next to him because the one recognized Jesus as his Savior and was forgiven. The other refused and went to eternal death.
(By the way the plural for thief is thieves)
rottingjohnny, you seem to have a penchant for ridiculing people of faith. Your comments are unfailingly banal and mean spirited.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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The one-life mentality is the same perspective that burns through our natural world like a disease. No concept of future generations, because we are "Not of This World".
Well, guess what? Your children and grand-children are going to be "of this world", and you are totally fukking it up for them.
It is Imperialism from a religious standpoint 90% of the time, from what I see - burn the world for my gain.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Great Story O-Man!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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James Watt was a proponent of one life imperialism and advocated burning it before you die...
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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Olaf,
Awesome testimony, bro!
As i am sure you know, the HS you experienced that night was the seal of redemption confirming Himself in you. Let them guys say what or think what they want. Sounds as though they were simply trying to monopolize or use you to make them look good. Baptism is an outward demonstration to people of what happened inside your heart. The actual water baptism has no other significance then that, imo! The thief on the cross never got water baptized!
Thanks for sharing!!
BTW, you must have an awesome speaking gift of sharing your faith publicly!
edit: sorry to here of the bogus way that one d00d treated you.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 20, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
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That was a well-told story, O-man. I once accepted Christ. I have done so a couple of times, simply full of warm-fuzzies, now that I think of it.
I don't think it is a big deal at all. It is only a sign, the water.
I know the presence of the Holy Spirit is with me, as a result of accepting Christ the first time...it still doesn't keep me from the doubts. St. Thomas and I share a lot. Yet he is one of the most venerated saints in the world. I learned about Mumping Day which is celebrated on his old feast, the 21st of December. It is an old custom in England to allow the poor to beg for money for Christmas presents. Just though I'd throw that in. There is a Gospel of St. Thomas, one of the apocryphal books. I haven't read it.
I did write out the entire four Gospels and the Acts in block letters, all caps, in the fifth grade. I guess I got kind of "rammed," Spider. My parents paid for it, too. Their kids' record: Three of four divorced and remarried. One illegitimate child. One married a Mormon. One married his wife's cousin. We are completely normal Catholic school kids.
Live day by day, I guess. Do a good turn daily. Show love some way to a stranger (nice thought there, Cragman). Keep in good with the Lord (Patton).
I was terribly f*#ked up when I got to Yosemite Valley in the fall of '70, having had a few months of paranoid fantasies of Satan, always announced by an orange aura in my thoughts, due to having ingested unknowingly some angel dust in a reefer. I prayed to Jesus hard. The fantasy continued for some time after that.
Then I fell on Swan Slab, about to the ground. I spotted Jesus in the corner of my eye as I began my fall. He was just floating out there in space. I call that apparition "Momentary Jesus." He apparently was there when I needed help. What else can I say? Am I wronging Jesus by questioning what he claimed, that he is the only way to the Father? All I can do is utter an apology for hypocrisy and hope to lead a good life. I got nothing better to do than to lead a good life. I practically live a monk's life as it is.
Do me a fave, everyone: drop a prayer in the box for me and others like me who have a religious educational background so that we not hold it against the ones who proseletized us while educating us that in so doing they actually kind of turned us off. I remember vividly the dog-mom (see what I mean about holding it agoinst them?)--the nun--who boasted, "Give the Church a child to teach for four years and he'll be theirs for life." I thought, well that's a load of crap.
Lots of us say that we "belong" to a religion. We don't. We belong to the one who created us. We are not slaves to relilgion or dogmatism unless we choose to be, so it seems inappropriate to say otherwise. Simply say I am Glad-to-be-here Orthodox. Or Reformed Diagnostic Awetheist. Which I am now. I just reformed my church.
As always, close with a hymn.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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James G. Watt said these things:
"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand."
and "My responsibility is to follow the Scruptures which call upon us to occupy the land until Jesus returns."
Secretary of the Interior, 1981-1983, and a Dispensationalist Christian. (Look that up in yur Funk and Wiki. Please do, he was involved in some bizzare situations which are humorous. He is a classic example of how religion and politics do not mix.)
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:58am PT
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They even let prisoners out of jail to try again after their term is over ......
even after they are dead?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 21, 2012 - 01:07am PT
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The Shaker Hymn, Simple Gifts--Youtube doesn't have the version by Parkening that I have on my CD. This slouch is the best of what was on offer.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
This one is for Werner, whose gifts are many, and whose service is appreciated. Thanks, WBraun!
Edit: I know very well WB can't hear this, but he gets it. He gets it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 23, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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Thank you very much, neebee, for the very kind words upthread.
John
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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I couldn't think of another spot for this satirical article. The DC is a satiric publication and those who don't know it might enjoy it. A lot of types hang out on the Taco, but most of you seem to enjoy the smack that goes on here, so have a look at the Daily Currant when you are feeling cynical.
I am not trying to stir up political strife here; looking for humor, rather.
If you are going to pray for anyone, pray for Missouri in general and whatever/whoever in regards to this brouhaha.
Politicians would do better to shut their gobs and just answer legitimate questions rather than preach. (And so would we all.) Witnessing is a whole other ball game.
http://dailycurrant.com/2012/08/26/todd-akin-claims-breastmilk-cures-homosexuality/
I do wish more of the world's problems could be solved by a little breast milk. God may have thought of that at the Creation, but She may have decided only some of us were worthy to dispense it.
In a related item:
http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/22/overheard-clay-aiken-draws-line-between-himself-and-akin/
This post is not intended to triialize, only to stand in open-mouthed wonder at the foolishness of politicians and their supporters. Thanks for the entertainment, Lord.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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thanks, mouse, for buddy jesus--straight out of dogma. nice fella, buddy jesus. i'll bet he woulda played baseball and gone fishing with me and said, "screw this altar boy business, there are better ways to spend sunday morning."
still waiting for the OP to testify here, brothers and sisters. did i miss something?
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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When Christians think me as an equal in light of the fact that I do not believe in the magical sky wizard I will consider them equal as well. I am not talking about politics at all, Christians think themselves better, by definition, than the non believers. I have a personal problem with that and I am a ex confirmed roman catholic. I have been there, I have learned, I have grown, and so should they, no matter WTF they believe...
oh and...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 28, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
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My name is Jingy and I approve of Dr. F's message.
Agreed - "And when thou prayest thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward…."
Similar to this entire thread.
Thank you Dr.F.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 28, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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I just peeked in for a look and see this;
"...IT's mostly distressing to see some of those who climb have no faith. If you deny him he will deny you maybe at a moment when you are most scared and yell out "God please help me not fall" and he turns way from you. I've seen too much not to believe and will not desert Him...."
MissJ that's the kind of crap so many folks can't stand.
What kind of god is that-certainly not one that 'loves all unconditionally'.
Sounds like an a-hole to me.
You're either with me or against me. Somehow IF there is a god and it has that attitude...well we're all fuked-including you cuz it's gonna want some milk after that cookie...
cheers
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 28, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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Squishy, that was real good sense Bill Nye laid out. Thank you.
I heard Will I. Am speaking on how the world needs engineers and scientists and that was on Mighty Hiker's post on Curiosity-On the Cusp, if you want to see it.
It is very hard dealing with some folks about evolutionary theory, which my anthro teacher loved to call a FACT. One just hopes their kids aren't as they are when grown.
Are ya listenin', Ned Flanderses of the world?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
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Wayno and Donini, thanks for your posts. Lynne
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 28, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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MissJudgemental.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 28, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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dr f...you are no better then those tv dudes who take one line of the bible and create. You might as well be on the street corner doing the same thing. You just grouped yourself with them. Does one take a science book, find one line and then say that this is what the book stands for.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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luggu, Dr. F graduated college. Just curious, did you graduate high school?
Indeed this site's a box of chocolates.
.....
Who's this missj you guys referenced? Maybe she deleted.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
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Low blow syrup....but yes college and yes actually used it in real life...not just an educated person who never used it. Actually got paid for my expertise. I still continually explore and broaden my education. And you ole wise one of the quick key strokes...what pretel does all you wisdom arise from....
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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Sam Harris just another mental speculator with no real ultimate truth.
You deny God and at the same time look at this mundane Harris dude as some kind of god because you have no real clue what God really is except your incessant guessing and projections.
Stick to your gross material mechanistic science so you don't constantly show your real ignorance of a subject matter that is far above you.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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syrup..really Sam Harris.....you could have said anything....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Olaf's testimony is powerful, and shows what the Holy Spirit can do when you invite Him into your life!
It's a shame, though, that the pastor believed that baptism is somehow a "requirement" when emphatically it's not. His belief was based on religiosity and is knott scriptural.
Even though I was baptised as an infant, I never really knew what it meant to give my heart to the Lord and to know Jesus. As an engineer, I had my doubts, but when I really did the research and looked at the evidence, the preponderance of which suggested it was more logical to believe than to not believe. I chose to believe at age 31, and yeah, HS has worked some mighty things in me, stuff I don't fully understand. God is cool, no doubt.
At any rate, I chose to be baptised as an adult, full immersion of course, being a "Bapticostal" - {wink}. It was sort of a celebration and a public declaration, just something I wanted to do, coming up out of the water as though I had been "born again". Yay! Thanks be to God!
In Him,
"Praise the LORD and Pass the Pitons" Pete
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
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Was tust du, Herr Braun? Did you watch the entire 56:31?
Sorry, I fell asleep. I guess I couldn't handle it.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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1. What happened that lead you to follow the trail to Jesus? How did you find your faith?
Born into it at first. Went on 23 missions trips by the time I was 20. Admired my parents and figured they knew everything. I adopted a lot of 'religious' stuff that wasn't from the bible, and when I began to doubt those things I almost lost my faith. Instead I realized that all I need is what is in the bible, and that has changed everything. If it's not part of this story, then I don't bother arguing about it: God created people, they deserted him, he gave his son to save us from our own downfalls. Now we are to love Jesus Christ and others as he loves us.
2. How does God help you deal with life? What do you have that helps you to take comfort in the Christian Life?
In every way possible! It's amazing how many answers are in the bible. There's no other book that addresses basically every struggle people can have. Even doubt about the bible are addressed in it. There is peace in every decision I make. When I find myself doing what I was created to do, there's no better thing! Seriously, there are sooo many crazy parts of life, and only my faith keeps them straight. Some say weak people feel better when they can believe in something, I think everyone feels better when they do what they were created to do.
3. What is your affiliation? Catholic, Methodist, or perhaps a local Church or person you would like to acknowledge? Perhaps you follow Jesus from afar, unaffiliated with any group.
I believe the bible and love Jesus
Sorry to anyone whom I have offended by telling them about my relationship with Jesus. But imagine you believe something, and honestly think that if anyone else believes it then their life (and eternity) will be immeasurably better. It would be kinda messed up to not share right?
Also, I mostly apologize for not telling enough people about the love Jesus has (for everyone)
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 29, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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HFCS
I think MissJ crawled back under the rock it came from.
Poor rock.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Because of Pascal's wager I am a Christian. More a Deist I suppose. In my 20's I was one of those awful opinionated evangelicals, thank goodness grew out of that. Honestly, what finally pulled me away was hearing all those sermons that if I just believed enough what I was praying for would change. I was told if the holy spirit was truly in me things would change. Well, I prayed and prayed and in my youthful hopes of what God would do, it never happened.
Just what was this thing I wanted so? in despair my then husband to soften his ways towards me and the kids, that he would no longer be such a narcissist. It was all in vain, the man never changed and that is when I lost my faith. All those sermons, all the advice from Pastors was bunk. I got divorced, so took my own course of action.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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The thread started out with a lot of nasty posts, so I ignored it for awhile.
What happened that lead you to follow the trail to Jesus? How did you find your faith?
Born into a very Catholic family. However, we don't believe everything that our parents teach us forever. As a child, I tested my belief in childlike ways. Whenever I was in trouble - not a frequent event and always traumatizing - I would pray. God seemed to be providing a hand. T
The defining point for me happened when I was 18 and pregnant. Everyone treated this event like a catstrophe. Two opinions were hammered into me - 1)get an abortion and have a future or 2)too bad girl, your life is over, you are destined to life in the trailer park. I was so afraid to talk to my parents, but it was time. I confided into my parish priest who CONGRATULATED me for the new life. When I asked him how to tell someone a message that they did not want to hear (meaning how do I tell my parents), he said to be honest, people will surprise you. Have faith. The very positive and supporting messages that he gave me seemed to represent God's message to me. This new life was a precious gift. The world treated this event as a catastrophe, but this baby deserved love and celebration, like any other baby. Father Donnelly was the only person that celebrated this baby with me. A couple weeks later, I felt the need to go to church on Thanksgiving and felt a very personal message that God still loved me, as imperfect as I am.
2. How does God help you deal with life? What do you have that helps you to take comfort in the Christian Life?
Courage to change what I can, accept that which I can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference....I am never truly alone. I am also very lucky to be part of a terrific tiny little parish of 65 families. It is so refreshing to see people look after and care for one another. Yes, there are the human, petty squablles. But in the end, these people are not simply going to mass, they fill backpacks with school supplies, they put together food baskets, they man the homeless shelter in the winter, they run activities at the prison, they raise funds for the arthitis foundation, Komen, etc. I am motivated to do more for the community because the people of this parish try to live the life. Catholics are a very small minority in this area. So the backpacks we fill, the food that we distribute, the shelters that we support are for people that do not share the same faith or any faith.
3. What is your affiliation? Catholic, Methodist, or perhaps a local Church or person you would like to acknowledge? Perhaps you follow Jesus from afar, unaffiliated with any group.
I am Catholic. My Dad is a Methodist who married into a French Catholic family knowing that my mom was a devout Catholic. My husband is a christian part of my Catholic Church, raised Catholic but was a baptist as a young adult. I don't think God is as concerned with denominations and every particular detail we may or may not believe. His son certainly seemed to be quite compassionate to all.
I would acknowledge Father O'Dea, who taught me that sin is rooted in selfishness. I love Father Donnelly who provided that support at the most pivotal time of my life. I attended a Catholic High School run by the most wonderful women led by Sister Corley. She never forgot any of her girls, even decades after the school closed. She still looks after my Dad in her new role in a Catholic hospital. I am also inspired by Father Cascia who founded a most wonderful program to foster positive relationships with former enemies through youth sports. Bringing Vietnamese, Cambodian and Russian children to the US for wrestling and baseball matches - that was quite an undertaking in the 70s and 80s. He also got us looking beyond our town with his support for St. Vincent DePaul soup kitchen and shelter in the "big city" next to my hometown.
The very last time that he drove a car was to give my mom the last rites. He was losing his vision. You'd never think of him as your stereotypical priest. He was a cigar smoking, rough man with a very big heart.
I put those names out there because there is too much delight in publicizing the human beings with roles in the church who have abused their positions. We rarely hear about those who have had a positive impact on the community.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 29, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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I think therefore I like Pascal.--Deshiker
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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I knew that into a thread asking for Christians to share their experience, as Christians and climbers, with other Christian climbers, some of the usual spray would blow. I must say, though, that luggi and Jody really got the better of Dr. F., Jingy, HFCS and Wade Icey on the issue of reading the Bible and quoting out of context.
As just one example:
"GAY MARRIAGE. Nothing."
Unfortunately for our lazy readers, Matt:19:4-6 reads:
"'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.'"
I'm sure that there are plenty of ways to rationalize this with current opinion, but I see no way to say that He said "nothing" about the subject.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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The issue was not gays, but gay marriage. If you see nothing, perhaps it's time to see an ophthalmologist. We climbers have a tendency toward premature cataracts.
Or are you saying you don't need to read the Bible to know what it says and doesn't say? That would require something more than better eyesight.
;>)
John
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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figurative narrative, a small index of a once vast library, translated a million times over, influenced for a thousand reasons, being taken literally and applied to modern day social issues...I f*#king love it!!
There's a lot of books in this world, I can find support for just about anything in books, even hanging ghey men while raping them (W. S. B.). To put stock in one book, especially a book saying it's the only book to listen to, is pretty lame...the Quoran does the same, with the same stories, same people, same messages...yet you Christians and Muslims love to kill each other, look at what two interpretations of the same book has done? Do these people lift their heads from said book and ever look around?
I would rather put stock in Johnathan Livingston Seagull...thank you..
I am sorry, but I think less of those who believe in a magical sky wizard and let a book rule them, and I have good sound reasons, facts, to back up my opinion...
The very existence of this thread is offensive to me, please go to the bible humper forums, there are many. I bet they have entire affirmation sections. Complaining about these types of responses after creating this thread here...well that will complete the circle wouldn't it?
Religion is dead in the face of logic, reason and science. The life I see is directly at odds with the interpretations of the bible, even though it does have some good messages, it's perverted by the religions that hold it up as god and it enables them to persecute, kill, rule and treat others unfairly and without much actual thought... religion is the heroin of the ignorant, and education is the medication to rid our world of it's cancer...
The evolution of religion is quite interesting though, why it exists and how it came about, it goes back a very long time, to the birth of our questions and believe it or not science has already explained it if you bother to educate yourself...
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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I have read the bible about 5 times at various ages, the Quran twice...but to be honest the I Ching and the Art of War have much more to say than either of them...
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Reading the bible eh? Maybe you can help me out here Elezarian:
I need some advice from you, regarding some elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev.21:20 states that I may ! not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Seamstress,
Thank you for sharing your faith with us.
I first heard about JC from a catholic nun. In fact, most of what I new of Him from 7-18 was what i had learned from them in my youth (7-13). Which was the basic gospel story. That is all anyone can do really, share that story and leave it up to whether to accept it or reject it. And I attribute the sharing of that story with me by a nun at seven years old to my having enough faith in Him to call on His name at 8y.o. and having been literally saved (along with a spiritual salvation) from a very brutal death.
I got a bad start (kind of) shortly after i turned seven and we had taken my younger brother to get baptized. My aunt had convinced my parents that he should be baptized. As the ceremony began, my aunt asked the priest if he would also baptize me. I had heard her conversation in regards to the consequences of not getting baptized. He refused, told her I was to old & it was to late. My aunt got pretty upset and he relented, gave me a disgusting look and flicked some "holy water" into my face. Then continued with my little brothers baptism with this look of holy joy...! i am glad that I did not let this discourage me from further consideration on exactly who this JC really was, i met the nun i spoke about above shortly after.
I could care less what the current "official" stance of the RCC is in regards to baptism and everything else is. But i do give them credit, particularly a nun, of hearing the basic story of the gospel which eventually did lead me to salvation a year or so later.
And I do believe i have other brothers and sisters in Christ among the RCC. But, if they are relying on what some priest did or said to them when they were 1y.o. or younger, all I can say or do is wish them good luck!
The vast majority of my family either were or are Roman Catholic. I grew up with it in Cape Breton, Canada! My older cousin (13-14) who saved my life at seven years old (after I drowned) became a priest at 21! I spent a lot of time in CB over a 30 year period and spoke with him often (he served in the US but, would like myself, also return home for vacation). All my uncles & aunts, cousins, grandparents, etc.! i imagine that they eventually all came to a point were the either excepted or rejected His personal relationship. But it did annoy me when they would laugh and tell stories about the small handful, select few nuns who would talk joyfully about Jesus. They would avoid them at all cost. I had met and new a few of them and they were indeed transformed. They were simply very loving and filled with the Holy Spirit (JC). That was a threat to my relatives and friends, sorry to say.
[But they were very comfortable with the once weekly procession and once a month confession...secrets sown to priest. I am not being judgmental, i have committed many, perhaps all of those very sins. I just don't put my faith in some mere man dressed in a robe and put on some pedastal to determine what my penance should be in regards to those sins, blah, blah, blah...!] ... (bit of a rant, i suppose this could be applied to any religion/denomination including evangelicals& fundamentalist whom everyone throws into one big lump and loves to hate. i do consider myself both 1) evangelical because i believe we are here first and foremost to evangelize anyone who has ears to here (that is the key) the vast majority don't, so best move on too fertile ground. SuperTopo IS NOT fertile ground. And, for the most part, puts us in the defensive position arguing with those that do not have "ears to here"...major waste of time).
Back to my initial post...
Just sayin, i am glad that I had three (3) experiences at an early age:
1). the priest who had rejected my desire to be baptized (it was myself who had requested it after hearing my aunts discussion and the results of not getting it, blah, blah blah). Because i was soon to learn & know now that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
2) the nun who shared the gospel with me.
3) the situation which resulted in my own faith to call on the name of Christ to intervene in my life!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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Nice interpretation, Riley.
With all this "banter" I can sense enmity forming in the minds of some.
It is a tiny window into the past and how the Thirty Years War began.
Seems like it's time to stop the arguments and let folks witness in
"Peace"
(in the words of Karl Baba, one of the most rational among us).
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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Karen,
Sorry about your "evangelical' experience's early on in your life. I recall not being allowed into several/many "evangelical" churches shortly after i graduated from high school and let my hair grow down past my shoulders. There is no way that you can identify with this now, it was a very different time and culture (late 60's). But it did, perhaps, have some input with my drifting away from the church, fellowship with other Christians & my personal walk with Christ (not my relationship). Just simply went my own way for a season or two (10-15 years). My salvation was secure, but I was certainly not growing or sowing, i was just drifting.
And, occasionally still do have my difference's with various denomination, churches, etc.! The bottom line is, in regards to a persons salvation, we did agree on the fundamentals; a personal relationship to JC. It was what they added to it in someway or another that causes friction. People point to all the various denominations (Christian) the bottom line is the fundamental question of who JC is and His relationship to you. For the most part, they all agree on this. Society uses the vast number of denominations as an excuse to not believe in Christ. So be it. But, there is no difference in regards to what they believe in regards to salvation! Just sayin!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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Regardless of what people may think, Christians have nearly as much chance of leading a moral and just life as do non-believers.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Reilly, et al,
Man creates the friction.
It is really a very simple message. So simple, even a child can understand it. All the "religion" that man adds to it is what creates the friction. Obviously there is another component to it, other than man, that revels in all the "friction" and is rarely mentioned either here nor in the vast number of "evangelical/fundamental" churches let alone the vast number of other churches that go by the name of Christ. His name is Lucifer, or was at one time.
Wudevah...!
edit: i do want to say this, the d00d is very real. and very powerful i might add. he did show up and offer JC all the kingdoms of the world (pronto). JC never doubted that he (Satan) could do this, he could have. That is power, and it's a power that the world identifies with, unfortunately. and if you think he is just some fictional character in some mythical book, then ya got another thing coming. just sayin...! friction is his middle name (or one of them) and the world is his domain.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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Yeah, if it weren't for Man, old Nick would be out of work.
Our friction helps to light the fires of his hell, if there be a hell other than this vale of tears and doubt.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
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I had a friend once, had everything the world could offer (or that money could buy). He had inherited 50 million dollars at the age of 21 (1970/prollie = 250M now). The one thing that money could not buy was power & fame (what the dood was craving) he already had fortune.
He grew up in the lap of luxury, his mother married a very well known Hollywood actor (Clark Gable) when he was 4-5. Lived on his ranch near Malibu, as his stepson throughout his youth (5-19). Anyway, one day when we were both around 21, (we were born a few months apart and grew up under very different financial circumstances, i might add), he came over and plopped himself right down in front of me and told me how Satan had come and made him a personal offer. He said that he (Satan) showed him what he could do with all his money. He was dead serious, and I never doubted him. I never mentioned it to anyone (actually my best friend was nearby & heard the whole conversation).
The dood definitely changed after that. Died just six years later. A book came out about him around 2007. Written buy the same guy that wrote & made the movie "Z-Boy's" or "Dogtown Boy's' i forget the title, it's about the early skateboard team that road for Zephyr surfboards/skateboards in the mid 70's! He mentions that he told him the same story just before he died. The guy that wrote "Hollywood Babylon" and a few related movies, began making one about him. Considers him one of the "27 Club" in relation to his encounter with & subsequent death at 27 y.o.!
He makes "an offer ya can't refuse!" sorry to say. That is, unless your already sealed in the blood of Christ! Something that my "friend" wasn't! I am glad that he can only be in one place at one time and is rather selective in whom he chooses to encounter. But, i have no doubt that he has approached many in the entertainment industry, particularly music. They have come out and said so, and I do not doubt them. From rap & metal to country. Personally, I don't really give a damn & I listen and enjoy much of it. Not making any particular statement other than i believe they are telling the truth. He (Satan) has his subtle ways, and all is well on earth and going just as planned, as far as he is concerned. Just sayin, so ...
Wudevah!!
edit: Squished -- i have no interest in that crap, nor spaceships on the moon (no disrespect meant in regards to Klinger), aliens & flying saucers, bogus dates set for the "rapture/Christ's return", the 2012 hullabaloo, planning for Armageddon, etc.! it's all diversion, plain and simple.
NOR, do i have any desire or inclination to convince you otherwise, once again...I cud give a sh#t what you do or don't believe! Just wanted to let ya know that you won't see me anywhere near the "contrails convention" should ya decide to go, but have fun & i do hope ya enjoy yerself!
BTW, my friends name was Bunker Spreckels, RIP! He inherited the Spreckles Sugar fortune (which was vast at the time).
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
you guys should go to the contrails convention...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
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You Christians should try to emulate Obama; wife, two well bred children, no scandals etc.instead of darlings of the "Christian Right" like Gingrich and Limbaugh- multiple marriages, adultery, drug abuse.
Christianity should be a lifestyle not a label.
The "Christian Right" is nearly always Wrong when it comes to matters of faith and morals.
Has a nice ring....the Christian Wrong.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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El cap you asked...Reading the bible eh? Maybe you can help me out here Elezarian:
I need some advice from you, regarding some elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
May I....this is what the passage means...taken from history looking at how the people lived...
"If an impoverished Israelite sold himself to a Jewish creditor for nonpayment of debt, he was not to be treated as a slave but as a hired servant and was to be released in the Year of Jubilee, if this came before the end of his sex years of service. The Jews were permitted to have slaves from the Gentile nations, and these were considered their own property, to be handed down to their descendants. But Jewish people were not permitted to be slaves themselves.
I know what your going to say...Slavery. Yes it existed everywhere in the land. When another group of people conquered a territory, guess where the losers went if they were not killed. This verse is a vivid reminder that the Israelites and their land belonged to the Lord and that He should be recognized as the rightful owner. Neither God's people or God's land could be sold permanently.
You have to look at the context of the land of the time to be able to better understand what the circumstances where and the customs.
Do you wish me to address your other verses of concern?
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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donini,
You watch to much tv, or perhaps read to many blogs or maybe the print media in general. perhaps check out what some of yer local believers are doingor what their respective churches are involved in. i would venture to say it has nothing to do with "gingrich", "limbaugh" nor politics in general... just sayin!
edit:but i do agree with your general assumption, or assertion, that being, that "Christianity' has been hi-jacked by politics. In America anyway. The US is only a small segment of the Christian Church (body of believer's)... and politics is simply a diversion from what should really be the focus of it, here or anywhere!
Yes, Mother Teresa is an excellent example. All we can really do is live our life as an example ourselves.
Donini, there is a long story behind it. There is a small portion of "christians" that are what is known as "Dominionist" their belief is thatn the 1,000 year reign of Christ has already began and that the world will eventually become 100% Christian. Totally bogus, as is their claim of the "prosperity gospel/health & wealth gospel" i know this sounds besides the point or whatever to you, but, they have mislead many in the regular church (for lack of a better name) over the past 20 years or so and it has snowballed to what it is today. Also a part of the great falling away "Apostacy" that is prophesied to happen. All this is mumbo-jumbo to you, but simply said, there isn't a whole lot the church can do about it. Perhaps we waited to long, or simply didn't ID it until it was to late (many still haven't, imo)!!
The point being, they believe they have some integral part in the whole process. Pretty pathetic situation. I, personally, don't predict a good outcome for America, sad to say, but who am i, so don''t loose hope!
"The US is only a small segment of the Christian Church...!" for example, there are approximately 100 million believer's in the underground church in China. It was and continues to be a very persecuted church for remaining underground (their only alternative is joining the state church, and they refuse to do so). When one very well known evangelist told them that the "Church" in America was praying for them (in regards to their persecution, etc) they responded, said that they pray frequently and fervently for the American "Church" (body of believer's) & that they would know/undergo similar persecution to purify it. Amen!!
JD, ^^^ and until that happens, ain't nothing gonna change. Read II Chronicles 7:14 (it is just one short paragraph/2-3 sentences)!! It says "If the people who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from THEIR wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and i will heal their land..."
We have a very proud (in general) church here in America! God does not tell the non-believers to turn from their wicked ways, he tells the church. Read the sentence or two above that (7:13)! "When I shut up the heavens so that their is no rain, or send locusts to devour the land, or send a plague among my people, if my people will..."! Great calamity fell upon the people/country, He did not blame the people, he blamed the church (Israel at the time) . Unfortunately, that is what it will take for us here. Once again, it prollie sounds like superstition and mumbo-jumbo to you...time will tell. I am no prophet, but I do know Him. He is very powerful, i have tested that power in ways i prollie shouldn't have. I have known Him from a young age. Furthermore, I know that nothing i say will change anyone's mind, so i won't try.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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Splitter, you have a point but the term "Christianity" has been hijaked by people with media savvy and a racist agenda....why don't you good christians fight back? I know a lot of good is being done down in the trenches to help the poor and less fortunate...Mother Teresa comes to mind.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
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Do you wish me to address your other verses of concern?
Please do!
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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Squish...as it pertains to slavery mentioned in the bible...instead of addressing the climate of the time over and over again...I will just provide that when God provided legislation concerning slavery, does not mean that He approved of it. He was only protecting the civil rights of those enslaved.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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Quite a stretch Luggi....quite a stretch.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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I see your point, and I understand it, you are proving my points by pointing these things out...it goes both ways, written for a different time, that time is still not NOW!! so why would we listen to the bible about anything? I want you to address the other items el cap listed, that was some awesome stuff...I have always wondered about each and every one and there's much more than that, like how you are entitled to a sister when your wife dies...and how a man can cheat and a woman cannot....please explain each one in context of the time it was written....because for each one you remove the meaning of the bible for THIS TIME AND PLACE...making it even more irreverent to anything in my life...
I challenge you Christians, bor me again...
If his message flows through the faithful and is infallible, then let it be...let it flow from your lips, convert me!!!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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hen God provided legislation concerning slavery, does not mean that He approved of it
Hahahahahlololol11!!11.
So your all loving lord GOD almighty, omniscient, all powerful, would rather "legislate" about slavery and leave it in existence, causing untold misery and suffering among innocent people, than to wave his magic all powerful wand that created the heavens and earth in six days and just do away with the slavery? Or smite the slave holders? Or strike them down and cast them out?
Um, sure, ok. That makes sense.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
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Pipe down fools.
Yer all stupid slaves to your own run away out of control minds ......
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
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I just wanted to add this...
In my opinion, there is something very wrong with America. It is prollie difficult for many to see, since it has been a slow, insidious process. But, just take a look at the current situation with pornography. It is literally available to anyone who desires it via the internet. Evidently there are over 350,000 internet porn sites. And the #1 demographic age group is from 10-16y.o.! More so than any other, middle aged men included. What does that say about our country, let alone what it has birthed/produced for the rest of the world. The porn industry says it doesn't have to advertise for new flesh, it gets emails by the thousands daily from young kids who are just waiting to turn 18 to become "porn stars" and they, the porn industry, eagerly awaits them. And the drug situation herein America, over 50,000 deaths, beheading's, etc., in one drug corridor/pipeline to America alone. Simply to feed our lusts. All in the name of the drug and sexual revolution of the 60's. Yeah, some revolution, eh? Those are just two, I could name more.
So, my point, wake up Church! Do you think that POLITICS are going to change a damn thing?
If you do, ya better get yer nose back into the Bible and see what JC had to say about politics.
And in my opinion, it may change a few laws, but it will not change anyone's heart. We have a heart/soul problem here in America, not a political problem. The "Church" (the vocal/visible "church") has messed up its priority's. Not saying that some of the issues are not legitimate. That they have become a massive political focus says something about our nation and where it is/has become. Politics isn't going to change a damn thing at this point.
Well, major departure from the OP's original request for a simple declaration of our faith in JC, sorry about that. LATA!!
elCap,
You haven't read the OT,thatis forsure. God did smite them over and over. And slavery was onlyone of their problems, they were sacrificing their own kids to foriegn "gods" for crying out loud. The vast majority of prophets were killed. Elijah, for example, was a wanted man that ran and hid in a cave at one point. Look what eventually happened to Jerusalem. It was surrounded in 70AD, sieged for two years or so. The people that didn't starve to deathe were later slaughtered by the Roman's (over 1,000,000)! And then the Temple was torn down. All of this was prophesied, in the OT and by JC himself! Of course, it means nothing to you, it is all just myth, blah, blah, blah...& therefore so be it, & I cud give a flying FOOOK what ya believe!
One thing is for certain, ya can't say that He (God) wasn't patient with Israel! And, imo, he is being very patient with America (the "church" included).
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
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it is all just myth
correct
man created gods to give explanation to a terrifying natural world
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
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Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts
so god turned men into homosexuals in order to punish them for something?
what could possibly have pissed god off so much to make Him be such a vengeful prick?
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
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My opinion is that a lot of what was supported by the bible was "indecent", as el cap listed so well. Are we to assume then that every thing in the bible must be taken literally and infallibly? If we believe just one of those things, we must believe them all...and I must now go out and kill anyone working on Saturday...or it is Sunday now?
If faith is a personal thing, personal belief, right? Then why does my belief need to be changed? why are you instructed to go out and change people's belief, to bring people into the flock, when what they believe is none of your #$%^#$%ing business? You know, according to your own faith...
It's nothing but contradiction, the word mystery is all they have to explain it, because that's what it is, a #@$%!#$ing mystery why anyone in this day and age would believe it...
I will leave the thread, I have said enough..I will leave you with this...
In the information age! Ignorance is a choice...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Norton...Yes , God will turn you into a homosexual or even worse , a Romney supporter....So renounce your party affiliation and vote for Obama.......you fag....!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 30, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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rj,
It says, he turned them over to their own lusts! it doesn't say he turned them into anything (as Norton suggested)!
So, if you should find yerself gawking at some beastiality (or however it's spelled/don't want to google it, lol) porno site, beware...might end up finding yerself in bed with the neighbors anaconda, or something! lol
edit: RJ, i suspected as much (from Norton), he is a cool guy, in most respects, but is a bit opinionated & driven, perhaps (i shud talk). so, slack given, but i will keep ya on belay shud ya yell "tension" or "up rope, mofo"! lol
Just joking about you and the Anaconda, btw! Actually, i had this distinct picture of Norton and a ... oh well, never mind (don't wanna dwell on it)! lol
edit/edit: Wow, just double checked Norton's avatar & it musta been Darwin that I had "this distinct picture of..." not Norton ... yikes!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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splitter....Norton pays me to post this sh#t on supertopo so cut me some f*#king slack...RJ
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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Homosexuality is absolutely wrong, as are many other things that mankind sinfully partakes in. To think otherwise then you haven't read The Good Book from cover to cover, and have artificially cherry-picked and used G-D's word in error.
Even Satan can do that. He knows the word of G-D very well and uses it out of context to fool his victims. Satan even attempted to use the Word of G-D against Yeshua. Unbelievable really. But Emmanuel, G-D with Us, Yeshua put him in his place.
It isn't judging to call sin wrong. The word of G-D already does so thoroughly from the beginning in the OT all the way to the end in the NT. The word of G-D already judges and lets us know what sin is and what the consequences are. We aren't to judge. G-D is the final and ultimate judge. We are to point out wrongdoing from brother to brother, and sister to sister in the Lord, in the faith. That isn't judging. (Yes, and that means you better have your own spiritual house clean to do so.) Judging is the determination of the ultimate judgement. Only G-D has the authority to do that. We don't know what is happening between G-D and another person at any given moment in time. A human being can come to G-D and ask forgiveness in their last dying breath and we won't know. Only G-D knows.
Just read the 10 Commandments. How many do we break time and time again? The wages of sin are physical death, and more importantly spiritual death. However, we all will be resurrected from death. All of us will be. But the question is, will you be in the first resurrection unto life? Or will you be in the second resurrection unto spiritual death and eternal separation from G-D?
Christians are not perfect. They will stumble and fall. But if they have truly asked G-D, Heshem Adonai Elohim, for forgiveness of their sins through the blood shed by the Lamb of G-D for the redemption of all sin for all time, our Adonai and redeamer, Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus The Messiah, and they have truly allowed Yeshua into their heart to change them, then they will be born again. They will be a new creature in Yeshua. Their lives will change for the better. They will bear good fruit.
You can be a fruit inspector off to the side if you want to be, but if it is genuine they will change. They can't help but not to. And like-wise, if they say they are a Christian and they bear no fruit, then they deceive themselves. The truth is not in them. Again, you aren't judging. The Good Book even says so. G-D more than likely isn't finished with them yet. You may have given up on them, but Hashem Adonai Elohim hasn't.
Will we (Christians), be perfect and go and sin no more for the rest of our Earthly lives? No. But that is the standard we should shoot for. That is what Yeshua asked us to do. But he knows we will fall. He's there to pick us up spiritually speaking. How often should we forgive our brothers and sisters and others everyday in our lives? 70 X 7. That is what G-D does for us when we come to him and ask forgiveness. Talk about patience!
G-D does that for us when we are under the redemptive blood of Yeshua our savior and our HaMashiach, our Messiah. He forgives us. That doesn't mean we are to abuse that forgiveness. If you go on living your life like the devil, and the Holy Spirit of G-D is not within you changing you, then you deceive yourself. You are then a "Christian" in name only. You're not really fooling anyone else. But then you do discredit your Christian testimony, and as we see, others will indeed use that against you. And G-D will judge you. He says so.
It's a journey of love and forgiveness, and it takes a lifetime to complete. Everyone is at a different place along the journey that have come back to G-D under the blood of Jesus Christ. We aren't all at the same place. But one day, in Yeshua we will be perfected and we will be like him.
Keith Green - Asleep in the Night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXb45UTUFWU
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Keith Green - Make My Life A Prayer To You
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNww8F6G9U8
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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skamoto
Mountain climber
coalinga ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:22am PT
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Don't wana piss anyone off at all. Every American is entitled to there own beliefs but I'm wondering what Christians think about other religions? Do people from other religions who do not believe in Christ go straight to hell for not believing in him? Or what happens to a super smart scientist like Steven hawkings who believes that science has proved God doesn't exist. But he is a nice good hearted fella. What happens to him? Like I said not trying to start fights or say anyone is wrong and u must believe in what I do. This is just from curiosity
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:31am PT
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skamoto,
dood, if ya are really that "curious", why don't ya find out fer yerself, get it right from the horses mouth & read one of the 4 gospels, The Gopel of John for instance? i mean, that is where we drew our knowledge from, so why shouldn't you also? why depend on what one of s have to say about it. read it, and draw yer own conclusions!!
edit: just saying, no matter what you hear some preacher, pastor, evangelist, tele-evangelist or someone on the internet say, ya should double check what JC had to say about it via one of the four gospel's!
edit: i have given my opinion on the subject many times here on ST over the past 4-5 years, don't care to do so any longer. best advice i have, i just gave to you above. and, i did spend 3 years of my youth (7th-9th grade)in SLC, Utah and all my friends, teachers, neighbors, etc., were LDS. So, i can sympathize with your situation (or what i suspect it was like). Shouldn't force children to do anything, imo. I got to know several kids in the same situation as you in SLC. Some loved it, others deplored it. i was never forced to go to church, or whatever. Even though my family were Catholic, but i did end up seeking out the truth for myself. Perhaps i was just fortunate, imo.
"Your comment surprised me!" -- I just checked and noticed you have only been posting here on ST for about one month (since July 16th, 2012) wait another year or so, and frequent all the "religious" threads, and political ones fer that matter! They have become much more nicer, in regards to respect to each other, in the last six months or so (secondary to a bunch of doods getting booted off) but still, it gets very old very fast ...same old questions, same old replys from the athiest, etc, blah, blah, blah...! It serves no point, imo!
besides, preacher's "preach", i am not a preacher. plenty of preachers out there for you to tune into, even on the internet. just google one of them, I'm sure you have heard of plenty. Billy Graham or his son Franklin,for instance. Simply google their name and ask the same question and you will get an answer. prollie better than the onei could give ya. Or just google "what does JC say in the bible about _ _ _ _ ! Just like you asked me,prollie give ya the same answer. As far as the Mormons areconcerned, I would simply stick with what the bible says, not what some other book says. But that is your decision, not mine.
Plus, I have already done a way to much "preaching" on this here thread, i don't believe it was the OP's intention for any of us to do so, i kind of blew it in that regard! Oh well!
Got to go, it is past my bed time (11:15)... nice talking with ya, gud night!!
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skamoto
Mountain climber
coalinga ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 01:39am PT
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Well splitter I have. I was raised a Mormon and was forced to read the Bible a lot. I have my own opinions about it. I was just wondering if someone wanted to share there's. Super uncommon for a Christian to not wana preach though. Your comment surprised me.
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skamoto
Mountain climber
coalinga ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:32am PT
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LOL I like your style split. I am no longer Mormon. I don't believe ill get to rule my own planet when I die like they tought us. And fair enough about DLL u said. I totally agree pretty much just thought it would be Interesting . I'm not athiest either. Sorry if I got your blood boiling was not my intention
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:41am PT
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As I was informed, Christ came to liberate the Jews from the Mosaic tradition, hence the Promised One of Isaiah. The old laws are not the primary concern of the Messiah. The Law of Moses is no longer in command. Isn't this a broad outline of Christianity? Is it worth debating any of these old Jewish beliefs held in common with their neighbors?
Good shot, Tami! We all ducked, you sniper...
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 30, 2012 - 05:00am PT
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"Homosexuality is absolutely wrong, as are many other things that mankind sinfully partakes in. To think otherwise then you haven't read The Good Book from cover to cover, and have artificially cherry-picked and used G-D's word in error."
oh fer crying out loud...
I've read all kinds of books, talk about cherry picking-dude the fact that YOU cherry-picked 'THE GOOD BOOK' out of the millions of books don't mean squat.
Believe what you want, but pulling that holier than thou sh#t is ludicrous and says more about you than anything else.
I'll give you that humankind does all kinds of f*#ked up things, you can call some of them sinful if you want, but your sins don't mean they're everyone's sins. You're just another cherry-picker yourself klimmer.
cheers
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:01am PT
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I am no longer Mormon. I don't believe ill get to rule my own planet when I die like they tought us.
I’m sorry, dear Skamoto, the Mormon Church does not teach that you or any other Mormon gets a planet to rule over. A few Mormons believe this notion…but it’s definitely not approved LDS doctrine.
…nor has it ever been.
This theory of mortals going on to rule over their own planets was the formulation of Orson Pratt, an astronomy lecturer, who held church office in the mid 1800’s. Some in the church liked the assumption but it was rejected as doctrine. Pratt was excommunicated in 1842 for causing contentions within the church but was reconciled and readmitted later.
His supposition caught the fancy of a few LDS writers like Jos. Fielding Smith and Bruce McConkie but never became dogma, canon or a central axiom of LDS precepts.
This dogma appears nowhere in the Bible, Book of Mormon or other authoritative articulations of LDS doctrine.
Periodically, the LDS church re-affirms that this "ruling over planets" concept is just opinion and conjecture of a few... and not to be taught from the pulpit.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:13am PT
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i don't think the OP is going to stand up and testify, brothers and sisters. too bad, but he's kind of a shy guy that way. this thread has spawned an interesting gallery of parallel vibrations.
i liked seamstress's account of why she's a catholic. in a church full of moral cowards, you occasionally find some moral courage like that.
i got some feedback on my catholic upbringing when we were invited to attend a jewish family seder. the prayers and sentiments were all too familiar: we are so insignificant, we have such shortcomings, only god is terrific and ain't it great to be riding his coattails. i sat through it like the whore in church i've become, happy for the aftermath, like at any christian church, when people loosen their neckties and dive into fellowshipping.
"i learned to appreciate other religions," said our host, finally breaking out the mogen david, "when i learned to enjoy my own religion."
"enjoyment is probably the last word i would ever associate with religion"--came out of me like a knee jerk.
"let me guess," he said. "you were raised catholic."
we both smiled.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tony, thanks for the tip on Seamstress's post, man. How did I miss that? And I liked your anecdote. Ain't it the way?
Seamstress told us she's a member of a very small parish. She is lucky, in my estimation. In the larger parishes like Merced's St. Patrick's, it is a daunting task to confront all the activities. It seems to me there is too much happening for anyone to feel noticed, or should I rephrase that to feel appreciated. This is out and out selfishness on my part for feeling this way. I am sure I have read, in an epistle, likely, we ought not think of ourselves too highly in respect to our congregating brothers and sisters. Cursed Catholic guilt trip? No, just good advice from the Book.
Another thing which struck a chord was the emphasis in her parish on actively doing things for the disadvantaged. I am not aware that we have much going on here in St. Pat's that directly impacts the poor. I may be mistaken, but it seems that the Catholic Charities office on Main has many more people lined up now than five years back.
There seems to be a lot of emphasis on socializing (all or most such activities being for "worthy causes"--but it is up to the individual to decide where his money goes, after all) in the way of dances and golfing and taking trips with others to Rome or the Holy Land and cursillos and any number of youth activities. None of these things that I could go to are affordable for me on a fixed income, anyway. Add to that the stigma of a divorce, and it is tough to be a member of this church I grew up in. There are plenty like me, I know.
I've tried to be a member of worth, and I suppose it could be done, but I am really quite adjusted, so I don't think it is worth it to pursue "acceptance through works." I suppose I'm more of a loner, happy enough to know that my Buddy Jesus is nice enough to forgive my foolish drifting. He's nice enough to forgive me my not accepting Him wholeheartedly, I expect, as a Savior. This statement sounds like I am making Pascal's wager, I'll bet.
I am happy to be nice to others as much as possible, though I know I have a mean, sarcastic, cynical tongue in my head, as I have shown on occasion.
For this I am grateful: I can make the world a better place by keeping a check on my tongue (read James). Although I'd really like to lay into the sanctimonious bastards who caused our parish such a problem when they pesecuted out pastor (no names here) for checking out a homosexual website. He's a good man, one who would take time to pass the time at Starbucks and cheer you up. He, at least, was doing his job by accepting that I was just an ordinary Joe, making no judgements, or so I think.
"So don't criticize what you can't understand," keeps flashing through my head. Verse for the day from the epistle of Dylan to the Foolippians.
Have a good day, Tony, Seamstress, and everyone.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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We have a very proud (in general) church here in America! God does not tell the non-believers to turn from their wicked ways, he tells the church.
I agree. Ironically enough, I am currently leading a Bible study on Amos, which has a great deal to say to today's church, and much less to say to today's unbelievers.
Unfortunately, I've been guilty of that same pride on this thread. I got into the debate about what Jesus said in response to what I saw to be arrogant proclamation of the words -- and meaning of the words -- of Christ, and then proceeded to do it myself in my responses, particularly to Craig (Dr. F.). For that, I apologize.
I too often forget my job -- to tell the good news about Jesus -- and try to do the Holy Spirit's job -- to convict and convert. Mea culpa.
John
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skamoto
Mountain climber
coalinga ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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Hey Jennie that's good to know but that's what our preacher tought to us. Nothing about it felt right that's why my family left. It honestly felt like a cult. But I have no problems with Mormons I still have a lot of Mormon friends. That one single church was just not for me.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 04:56pm PT
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Interesting, squishy. I, for one, have trouble differentiating what is and isn't "secular." This is, I think, an issue for any Christian, and certainly for any Christian climber.
If we are to present our bodies (meaning our lives) as living sacrifices, then what part is "secular" and what part is "sacred?" I maintain that to a Christian, there should be no distinction. Our whole lives should be "sacred," including our climbing.
I know I've said this before, but there has been a heresy particularly prevalent among my fellow Evangelicals that I call utilitarianism -- meaning that anything we do that does not overtly and directly further the Kingdom is a sinful waste of time. I don't want to repeat in detail why I find this untrue, but utilitarianism relegates creative activity to sin (and much of climbing is creative, old-timers bemoaning sport climbing to the contrary notwithstanding). This also explains how we tolerate so much mediocrity in "Christian" art and music.
John
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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In order to lighten up the hostilities I thought this might help. A by-line in the local paper:
Man arrested after telling hospital patients, staff he is Jesus
Seems the man isn't safe anywhere.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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good for a chuckle, yes, especially when you remember--
jesus arrested for claiming he was ...
... and just exactly, what was it he claimed he was?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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I can see how some folks spray coffee on their keyboards^^:-)
That's hilarious!
Paging Mr.Klimmer...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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flossing as such was punishable by murdering everyone in the town and selling your daughters to slavery
says so in the Bible
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
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Curious,
are there any people on this thread who identify with Christianity (that is, they call themselves Christian) but don't accept the traditional theistic claim that the historical Jesus was God, God-Son of God? - who believe the "Jesus Christ is God" doctrine is to be taken metaphorically or mythically, not literally?
If so, do you ever assert it publicly?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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Only while shanking....RJ
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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The Son of God and the Son of Man are two names he gave for himself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
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So do you care to give an identifiable stance on the "Jesus is God" doctrine? Is it yea or nay for you?
Like many in politics, many in religion don't want to provide an identifiable stance on many a specific issue. They prefer just to ride on through to wherever (perhaps on their charm or charisma) and avoid the issue. But of course this just maintains the status quo - which is often a state of confusion, misunderstanding of others and such.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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Russ Walling -- Hypothetically he might hate fags even like God
God does not hate anybody. He loves everybody!
But, He hates sin. Sin separates us from God.
You have heard the story ... God so loved the world that He...! Basically He came & paid the penalty for sin once & for all. Became the blood sacrifice. Broke the curse attached to it ... death (eternal).
Anyway, back to 'hate vs love' & sin, etc., we are all sinners. For instance, bitterness, hate, anger, jealousy, strife, envy, idolatry, greed, selfishness, disrespect ... that prollie covers my average day at the office/work! lol
Anyway, the love part. You don't have to believe what i have to say, that we are all either lost, or where lost at one time, but, His love for the lost is; Like the love a mother has for her only child that is lost.
Imagine a mother who dearly loved her only child (a young child) & it didn't return home one day. Except, God's love for the lost (individual) exceeds that in ways that are humanly impossible to define. I could say a thousand times what a human mothers grief, hurt, pain, sorrow, love or whatever is, but, there is no limit to what pain can be constituted as "in the spirit", particularly God's Spirit. For instance, as human beings, we can only take so much pain, can have so much physical pain inflicted upon us until it physically kills us. But, in the spiritual realm, there is no "physical body" & therefore no limit to pain in that regard. Same goes for the emotional aspects of pain, sorrow, grief, etc.!
Believe me when I say that God loves everybody, including the lost. But it is a severely grieving sort of love. I am sure, like the mother, there are other aspects to that love, but, it is (just like her) over shadowed by an intense longing, an overwhelming grief, for her lost child.
So, I repeat, God certainly doesn't hate anyone...on the contrary, he deeply loves everyone. He does hate the sin that separates us from Him though!!
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
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are there any people on this thread who identify with Christianity (that is, they call themselves Christian) but don't accept the traditional theistic claim that the historical Jesus was God, God-Son of God? - who believe the "Jesus Christ is God" doctrine is to be taken metaphorically or mythically, not literally?
Trying to process this; but it is difficult. I wonder why you ask? Are you trying to dissuade someone from believing there is a God? Why bother? I am not going to try to convince you of the existence because you have chosen not to believe in his existence. I know this because I was very much a member of that school of thought.
I don't care to debate the issue; however I will attempt to clear up some of your confusion. It is likely that you will retort with another question or statement to disqualify mine or my belief; which is the point I am addressing.
No one could consider themselves to be a Christian if they didn't believe that Jesus was who he said he was, the son of God; which he stated that being God's son means he is a part of God.
It is a faith or belief system. There is plenty in the Bible that is confusing, sometimes conflicting, sometimes surreal. There probably is no way to understand it all. I personally try to focus on what I can understand. For instance I rarely read anything in the book of Revelations. A man was writing about his dreams. I accept it as some sort of prophecy; but it is very confusing, so I don't dwell on it.
Another example: I am a science teacher (or was). I believe in evolution; but I don' believe it is accidental. As a Christian I believe that God created all. That doesn't make me have tunnel vision and block out science.
You can't argue Faith. You can no more disprove that there is a God or that Jesus was not the son of God than I can prove there is a God and Jesus is who he claimed to be.
People should leave it at that.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 30, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
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Yes, isn't the Christian life wonderful!
The best part is when you are so full of yourself you get to speak for, and interpret for the Guy in the Sky.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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Norton...Getting to speak for the guy in the sky is on a rotational basis...Your turn is coming...Just wait...RJ
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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Wade Icey -- He?
Yes "He"!
That is the way Jesus Christ referred to Him, God the Father, ie, "I and the Father are one." etc.,!!
What is your point?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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Cosmic...I'm going to put an aluminum pie tin in my knickers and laugh my ass off while you get your whipping from the big guy...Take that...! RJ
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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Wade Icey -- He was a man?
You already know the answers to these questions, you, like RW, have ulterior motives for approaching this thread. You just can't resist that spirit (call it what you like) within you (your heart/mind/flesh, whatever) to come to this thread and serve the "anti" aspect of your nature.
Nothing new.
But yes, He came as man, was fully man & fully God at the same time. He emptied Himself of His God nature & lived a sinless life as a man = the perfect sacrifice for sin.
edit: odd how man has/is pulled towards slamming Christianity/Christ, has been for 2K years. I notice that ya haven't done likewise to any other thread that surficed lately in the "I like..." category. But, no worries, we been warned by the man Himself, it is expected. A form of persecution & He promised we will be rewarded for enduring it!
So ... Thank You!!
btw, just noticed that ya pulled/deleted that question! i am not sure why ya asked (cud'a been a sincere inquiry) so, wudevah!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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Jody..I agree with what say about extra marital sex but when your goat falls in the well it helps to have experience in love and sex so that you can stoke your mate when you finally do get married...it was just my turn to speak for the big guy and he approves this message....RJ
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 31, 2012 - 12:09am PT
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...or will a Vegas thing work?
Wait a minute!
I've heard that "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!"
I think they even made a movie about it...so it must be true!! lol
edit: RJ - "But when your goat falls into a well it helps to have experience in love and sex..."
Didn't I warn you last night about staying away from those beastiality porn sites, dood? lol
@Slayton --JC did descend into hell (Hades) prior to His resurrection. He evidently did so for that purpose. Just a partial answer to your question, but He did cover what you ask! Not all were released, obviously. Prollie secondary to the life they lived, ie. Lazarus & the rich man. Or, King Herod who slaughtered a whole village of children under the age of two (but i guess he died after Christ's birth,since that is why he killed all the children/but you get the picture, eh?)! Maybe some had the chance to repent, i don't know what all happened. I do know that He was just!Besides. JC was the Lord of the OT and however He judged people then,(once again, see Lazarus & the rich man story) He was just.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Aug 31, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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My apologies if this has been asked before but if one can only enter the gates of heaven by accepting Jesus Christ as one's savior, what happened to the souls of all of those who lived and died before?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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So do you care to give an identifiable stance on the "Jesus is God" doctrine? Is it yea or nay for you?
Yes, Jesus is God and, uniquely, the God-man.
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 31, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Tobia / JElea,
Do you guys know about deification? Familiar with it?
I ask because a lot of Christians don't know about deification.
When Christians, otherwise people in general, don't know about deification, it makes it harder to have a conversation, at least a meaningful one, about the nature of the historical Jesus.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 31, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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hfcs,
I am familiar with the term and it's use in theology. However; as I stated before I am not interested in debating the existence of Jesus Christ, his mission or his nature. It serves no purpose; for me anyway. My reasoning is given above.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 31, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
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jesus was a stoner
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 31, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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Tobia,
So that's the paradox. Isn't it? You want to reason through it but you can't. Then, in the absence of reason, one theistic claim ends up just as valid as any other. The theistic claim "Smite the infidel because this is what God wants!" ends up just as valid as the theistic claim "Killing a zygote is murdering a person!" ends up just as valid as the theistic claim "There is no God but God and Muhammad is His messenger," and "Jesus loves you." Where does it stop? In the absence of reason, it doesn't stop, it doesn't stop. It just goes round and round in our politics and family life and elsewhere leaving in its wake a mess. Just a big mess that the irreligious believers - the irreligious believers of science, for instance, or the irreligious believers of reason or the irreligious believers of the good life - have to deal with and experience. Not that much unlike the poop and discarded tissue paper some inconsiderate smartass climbers leave on our climbing routes, eh?
Btw, you first replied to my post, not the other way around.
Also, if you want to believe in a way that's beyond the purview of reason, then of course that's your business. But don't expect others to leave it at that. Others want to participate; they don't want to withdraw, to bail. Culture wars are afoot, much of them have to do with religion and bs beliefs about how the world works, some want to bring reason to the process to try to figure a way through the troubles we all face. It's a shame many a Christian - perhaps yourself, it seems - would despise them for these efforts.
"People should leave it at that."
Not even close.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Aug 31, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
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I must say, though, that luggi and Jody really got the better of Dr. F., Jingy, HFCS and Wade Icey on the issue of reading the Bible and quoting out of context.
some's got a ultra-low threshold for "got the better of" statements.
and other mindless yammering from a "I have my imaginary friend" type
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Franpsycho (a.k.a. a token of my extreme)
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Aug 31, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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flossing as such was punishable by murdering everyone in the town and selling your daughters to slavery
says so in the Bible where do i go to buy said daughters? is there an auction of something?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 31, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
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Jingy, nice find! Missed that one.
That was JElea comment, it looks like, lol!
What a bullsh!t statement, eh?
Reminds me of this:
Honesty is a lost art. Facts are for losers. The truth is dead. Pick one.
Opening lines to an op-ed in NYT today. Applies equally well to religion as politics, I think.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/01/opinion/blow-the-gop-fact-vacuum.html
Paraphrasing above op-ed a bit:
Saying incredible things in a credible way is the art; using theology of vapors to sell dreams of smoke is the craft.
.....
Let's not forget, though:
Better to fight it out on the internet than on the physical battlefield. Like bitd. Might be a gamechanger in this regard.
.....
...munched her little muffin...
hahaha!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 31, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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How old is the earth?
About how many years has our modern human species been on this earth?
How could humans have "heard" of Jesus prior to 2000 years ago? They didn't
What about the humans that were in Yosemite only 10,000 years ago?
They never heard of prophets or Jesus coming in the future
So they didn't have souls. could not be saved, and could not have gone to "heaven"
Nobody got a shot at heaven unless they were born in last 2000 years, right?
Puke
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 31, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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He's thoroughly steeped up to his carotids in the Abrahamic narrative isn't he? I'd bet he's never visited a theology - other than the "God of Moses" one. 1,000 cultures, 1,000 theologies.
.....
Norton, what's funny queer is that there are a couple of posters on a cousin thread to this one who swear the bulk of modern Christians don't take the bible stories literally. Recall that?
One says literalism is a modern evangelical affair rooted in the beginning of the 20th century or so (one wonders if she has a similiar misconception re: the muslim world and Islam, e.g., in Pakistan); the other calls me a "puerile rube" among other labels for going on an on and on and on about Abrahamic myths that nobody believes in literally anymore, lol. It's a tough row, battered from all sides. ;)
.....
Of course, deification was rampant 2,000 years ago. If we took a time machine back to the iron age, we'd see that the ancient Egyptians deified Ptolemy and Cleopatra; the ancient Romans deified Julius Caesar among others. Of course all this is common knowledge to anyone literate in history and the so-called Ascent of Man. Even in the 20th century, Americans learned that the bulk of Japanese peasants going back centuries believed their emperors were Living Gods. But does any of this lead the modern Christian to wonder about the deification of Jesus? at least as a possibility? No. Go figure. Apparently it is beyond the purview of reason and/or reasonability. What strategy!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 31, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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Norton, for simplicty, I used "Jesus". Prior to Jesus, salvation was received by faith in God, their Saviour. Jesus was that saviour, but not referred to as "Jesus" in the OT.
so Jody, there was no "salvation" for all those billions of humans who never heard of the word "god" or "savior", correct?
You do fully accept do you not, that "modern" humans existed on this earth for at least the past 200,000 years, and that language (speech) is only perhaps some 50,000 years old?
And that billions of humans lived and died long long before anyone started talking about "god", the word itself can be traced back only some 2500 years.
Are all those people who lived and died without giving a damn to even think of religion or a god idea because they had not been invented yet doomed to never know "salvation"?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 31, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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HFCS -- " It just goes round and round ..."
LOL
I've been saying all along,
There's no escape .......
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 31, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
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Jody:
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
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WBraun
climber
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HFCS you are in the wrong thread.
You are supposed to be in the atheist thread proclaiming the glories of everything you've created in the factory of your limited brain.
This thread glorifies the factory of the Supreme unlimited Brain ......
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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The basis for salvation is faith in Jesus...that He died for our sins. Prior to Jesus being crucified, people had faith that Jesus would come in the future and die for our sins, as was taught through prophets. Back then, people looked forward. Since then, people look back at what had already happened.
Thanks for the reply, Jody. But what of all of those people that lived prior to Judaism, before the idea or reality of a Judaic Messiah?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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The Supreme Unlimited Brain who's very existence is based not on any tangible evidence but on great big spoonfulls of "faith."
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WBraun
climber
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Using such a defective argument such as yours, Donini, will equal the same evidence == great big spoonfulls of "faith."
That is not a scientific method.
God is proven using the scientific method.
Western gross materialists do not have the lock on the complete scientific method to make such childish claims.
The western gross material scientists are foolishly trying to frame themselves as Absolute Authority using defective arguments such as yours above and is completely unscientific.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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hfcs,
I am not sure how you surmise so much about my intent, my purpose or myself in general. I do understand that expressing ones thoughts and exacting what is written on your end (or any one who is reading) is difficult through this medium.
I have only one advantage over you and that is that I once held the same philosophy and thoughts on the existence of God as you. Through the gift of grace I now have a different perspective. Don't misinterpret what I am saying by thinking that I have risen above you, it is more of a lateral movement.
By saying this I am not saying I am wiser or better than you. I am merely different in my belief. I can understand and appreciate every aspect of your argument. You are very right in so many instances. You present several questions that I can't answer.
I am not trying to reason through my faith. Faith defies logic and reasoning. It defies any laws of science and worldliness. It is indeed a mystery. I struggle with that on a regular basis.
One point I would like to stress is that you haven't read one word where I belittle anyone for their belief. I haven't mocked anyone and certainly haven't insulted anyone; nor have I tried to persuade anyone on this forum that I am right and they are wrong.
That is one problem that seems insurmountable. My reasoning is this: because I claim to be a Christian doesn't pigeon hole me into a corral of mindless robots. I haven't lost my identity, my mannerisms or my personality.
There is no paradox as far as I am concerned. You are entitled to believe as you wish, you have every right to life to live as you chose, as I do. I still have free will the same as you.
The only people I despise are people with bad manners; more correctly I would say I despise the bad manners of some people. I would like to point out that I was that way before I ever became a Christian. The two really aren't related. I also despise myself or my bad manners when I display them.
I agree with you about the conflict of belief systems in the world. I can't say where it stops because I haven't the faintest clue. I spend hours reading about history and the clashes of humanity never seem to end. Human nature seems to be hell bent on destroying itself or destroying others that are unlike themselves.
As I stated before, I don't have any misgivings about science. I have a degree in science. I still hold on to the knowledge I gained and I still build on it through reading and living. I don't draw a line and box out what is explained by science and what is not.
Reasoning will never stop the circle game of life. Nothing will. We are a race of individuals. I guess that is the beauty and the ugliness of it all.
The reason I stated that I won't debate the issue is because, as I am sure you will agree it gets real ugly on this forum. I don't care to participate in an insult fest. Take R.W.s post up thread. What is the point in that? Of course it has nothing to do with me (I hope) because I have never breached the subject he is making a point about.
You make the point that it is a must for people to come to a round table and work out their philosophical differences. That would be nice; but in reality it won't happen (especially when someone's philosophy is referred to as "bs". I say that it won't happen; at least on this forum. Too many people like to pitch in, with no intention of positive input.
I hope I have clarified a few things for you and you can understand why I chose not to stay in the quagmire that this quandary devolves into.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I'm really impressed by the conversations of this thread! For me I gave my life over to God at the age of 9 at a Billy Graham concert. Since then I've been on and off the path to Holyness. I think the bible is easy to understand if you put yourself in Gods place as a father. I'm 49 with a 6 yr old daughter. When she took something that wasn't hers I didn't stone her or even spank her or scare her into knowing its wrong. Or MAKE her do what "I" think is right. Instead I took her to the and in a very Loving way demonstrated what she was doing to others with this action. Once she understood how she was hurting someone else she immediately said she was sorry. And she was forgiven. If she continues to steal, and has a contrite heart afterwards I'll continue to forgive. But if she determines that there's nothing wrong with stealing, then we'll start down the road of punishment. Christ said the OT ( Law of Mosses) is a "ministry of death" and no one can gain entrance to the Kingdom by it! All are condemned through the Law! The Good News is Jesus sacrificed himself and His blood covers my blemishes in God the Fathers eyes. I just have to ask! Always remember the Bible is a spiritual manual. God doesn't hate the "sinner" He hates the "sin" He doesn't want the whore to be put to death. But the act of selling her body for money and causing men to lust after her. God has given us "free choice" for a time so we can exprement on our own what's good for our children. After all isn't THAT what life is really about?
Family.
Just Sayin IMO
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Blublow, you are truly awash in the blood of Christ, God Jesus, Son of God Jehovah, congrats.
.....
Tobia,
thanks for the elaboration. I should say while I do not respect the traditional literalist beliefs of Christianity incl Virgin Birth of a God, Resurrection, Ascension, Second Coming, Immortality in Heaven By Way of Me, etc. (as I think they're as bogus as the claims or doctrines of astrology; or, yes, bs or horsepucky) outside of ancient Mesopotamian mythology, I do respect your RIGHT to believe as you want. Here I will only add the following: You've mentioned your background in science (physical science or life science and how much I don't know) thus I'll presume you are aware of the overarching story all the sciences taken together along with history reveal about our cosmos and ourselves - so wonderfully expose' ed by the likes of Jacob Bronowski, for example, or Carl Sagan - and dubbed by many The Evolutionary Epic or the Scientific Story. So verily it amazes me (true, admittedly, with some head nodding if not eye rolling) how apparently you've returned to Christianity with your science education to dovetail either the Abrahamic narrative into Scientific Story or the Scientific Story into the Abrahamic narrative. -With the results being that you think this is something of an "advantage" and that the two accounts are not incompatible. But it is what it is, I'll take you at your word. So be it. But for now, I best be moving on, the sun is shining. Thanks again for the elaboration.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Thanks Corn Spew! "Takes 1 2 no one"
Even though the words weren't write; U no what I meant!
U know what mean?
Meditate on it......
His name is Jesus
BB
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Just remember
YER GONNA DIE
SO WHAT? says god.. it's not like you really died... you stupid immortal soul.
Stop being so damn melodramatic!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jody - you are correct.
Splitter- you are correct. as well.
I sincerely apologize to both of you for the assholy tone of my posts.
edited
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Wade Icey,
No problemo, bro! Thanks for clearing things up!
BS -- I have been a born again Christian for over 40 years. I did not say that it was a "particular sect of christianity". It has to do with humanity in general. Jesus said, "You must be born again!" He wasn't speaking to "christians" when he said that. As a human being you are either born again or your not! When you become "born again" you become a Christian.
And as far as your statement "Jesus hates gay people" I just addressed that same statement (Russ Walling declared the same thing) back two pages. Like I told him (I'm not going to repeat it all) Jesus loves everyone! BUT, he hates sin.
Cheers!
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beef supreme
climber
the west
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born again for 40 years? how does that work? I didn't realize that 'born again' was a particular sect of christianity. I thought it was the basic equivalent of hillbilly to country folk.
just showed up by the way- haven't been following this thread, too put off by it. but i'm a little drunk too so there you go. my point is don't take it too personally- sounds like you've met a lot of people or whatever.
Anyhow- so some of you like the christian life.... great. I'd honestly be glad to hear it if I thought that 'christianity' had anything to do with what Christ was all about. I'm making big time stereotypes- I know- it's just been my experience in the past. Jesus hates gay people, Jesus said/ did xyz.... the fact of the matter is that if Jesus really did 'come again' or have his full on second coming- the same people that purport to believe in him would be the first ones to tie him to a stake and burn him as a witch or have him committed.
My completely unsolicited advice? Have some responsibility for your life. Why did homeboy have to die for your 'sins'? That idea, in and of itself, is the complete downfall of modern christianity in my opinion- you are responsible for your actions and your thoughts. Not him, not anyone. You.
Ok, goodnight. Seriously- no hard feeling, i'm tipsy, some of you are hardcore believers that the earth is 6k years old..... zzzzzz. What else is there to say?
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Context and cultural time period is everything. Do a little in depth studying on the subject and then those scriptures won't freak you out so much.
Total crock of sh#t cop out. You know what Norton posted is straight from the bible. And that people believe that the bible is the word of god. You folks who say this sh#t about context and cultural times are totally full of sh#t. Either that or total hypocrites for saying that you believe whole heartedly in the word of god, but then do not observe as the god you claim to worship has prescribed under penalty of death, distraction, and burning in hell for ever and ever.
Total f*#king cop out. You should just admit that you don't really believe as much as you say you do and just tell everyone that you take the book for its "positive side only" and totally neglect all that negative BS because it's a "different time and a different culture".
f*#king shame
P.S. Locker has posted the only thing worth worshiping.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jody - you have a lot of letting go to do.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jody; Whatever U do don't let go of Jesus! You know that!
Jingus; whatever U do read the New Testament. The Old Testament was a shadow of things to come. Jesus called the Law of Mosses (the OT) a ministrie of death. NO one can gain Gods favor by "doing" anything! Right or wrong. Jesus said "put away the old law I have a new commandment that's to Love EVERYONE as you would want to be Loved. " He also said its easy to Love ur mother or brother, but I challenge U to Love ur enemies. If he socks U in ur left eye turn and let him hit U in the right also. And then Love him. And teach him where he was wrong. It doesn't happen like that very much. I saw it once for real and it was a Beutiful thing! Just imagine if we all took on that attitude. Have patience thru the storm. Then apply Love and words of encouragement to help each other grow! Chopping others down to make oneself feel bigger isn't growing, it's rotting... Away
BB
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Blueblocr...Thanks for the plug...Rottingjohnny
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Welcome Home Splitter!
Just to touch on ur equal amounts of faith idea;
If you only had as much faith as a mustard seed. Matt 17:20
Not found such great faith. Matt 8:10
O you of little faith. Matt 6:30
Increase our faith. Luke 17:5
A man full of faith. Acts 6:5
In proportion to our faith. Romans 12:6
Though I have all faith. 1 cor 13:2
That's all I can find for now. I really feel like my faith has grown gotten stronger and increased as my wisdom increases.
IMO
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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blucock - you're just as FOS as Jody: You know that Jesus, the one you say you worship, said about the OT, but you choose to overlook it?:
Matt 5;17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
If you are not taking everything as given by god then you too are another one of the hypocrites who picks and chooses what they think their god wants of them..
Sorry if I seem to be lumping all you "believers" together as one giant pile, but you all kinda are.
If you are going to hold this book as the sacred word of god, and say that you worship, then you must choose to to adhere to the entire book with all the rules and laws as they are written. You cannot say that what god was talking about in that first book, that wasn't the real part, it was only after he impregnated mary that the real part started.. that's bull sh#t and if you are a genuine person with any morality or a hint of integrity then you see that I ain't lyon.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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MR. BLUEBLOCR,
i was going by Romans 12:3
"Be honest in the evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given you." NLT
"But to think though as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." NASB
Yea, I see your point. and i agree. i had just been reading/studying this article that John Piper wrote on Romans 12:3! He made that statement about our/him having the same amount of faith as the patriarchs. but I will go back and reread it. I may have taken it out of context. it is a little confusing to me, i must say. Hebrews 11 is one of my favorite chapters.
EDIT: it would seem to me that Abraham had a great amount of faith. And I agree with you on the faith growing. I know my faith has grown tremendously over the years. just in the fact that God has done everything He has promised. i do know His voice, and anything he tells me He will do or do through me, I wouldn't doubt. In regards to Abraham. God kept a miraculous promise in giving him and Sarah a son at an old age (him 100, Sarah 85). and the promise of a great nation through that son (Isaac).
And, like you said, gaining knowledge through His Word/Bible. And all that has been fulfilled that was prophesied.
What i was referring to, and what i thought John Piper was talking about was the initial amount of faith to believe in God.
Here it is, maybe you could shed some light on what he is saying;
lifegate.hubpages.com/hub/What-is-the-Measure-of-Faith
Oops, doen't seem to be working!!
Just type in to google: Lifegate what is the measure of faith?
and it will take you to that article! it is a really good article about someone standing up and having enough faith that we will have a revival in America!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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God forgot at least one person when he allotted everyone a little faith....me. Faith is belief without evidence......just something I can't get behind along with- mountain bikes, dogs at crags, working routes, beer in a can, and the republican party.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Donini...You forgot the skate skiers... :]
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I've got a short list, a long list and a list that changes daily.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Donini....Good job...at least you aren't listless...RJ
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Good call jingy!
I just read it. It was very important Jesus fullfilled it. That's how we know Jesus is the christ! When God scratched the 10 commandments in stone he also wrote them upon our hearts. We all know inhearently we shouldn't kill somebody cause we're mad at them. And an eye for an eye just makes us all blind. But continue down to Matt 5:21,27,33,38,43 I LOVE this chapter thanks for bring it up! This is where U can really start to get the understanding of what type of mindset God wants us in. It's like a law u can break or not break. If u kill someone and the punishment is death u die. But Jesus added that if u are angry with ur brother u are in danger of judgement. What He's talking about is ur emotions. What comes from ur heart. Which starts from ur mind. That's the reason to try and memorize what Jesus said. Now the cherry on the Sunday. In the OT if U broke a commandment U had to sacrifice an animal to take ur sin with him to the grave and U would be cleansed. Well, Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice when he hung on that cross and shed His Blood for ALL of mankinds sins. Haleuhya!
Through Gods Grace we can go directly to Him in prayer and ask to be forgiven and cover us with the blood of Jesus and He will see us as Holy again! That's the big difference between the NT and OT
IMO
BB
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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When God scratched the 10 commandments in stone he also wrote them upon our hearts.
The only document that would cemented everything and ended all arguments… that humanity found a special place to put, never to be seen again….
Talk about responsible…
oh, wait… that's right… it's all made up anyway!!!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
Faith is a kind of evidence in it's own right. Something has to prompt faith. It's inane* to assert that faith is held for no reason at all. And, unbelief is a hardness of the heart and is the opposite of faith.
ten commandments - hearts/conscience
edit: * i meant 'inane' not 'insane'!
edit: Jim, believe me, i know what your saying/implying and where you are coming from. i suppose i was fortunate to enact that faith at a young age and it (what i had a mustard seed of faith in) responded in an immediate & huge way. if It/He hadn't responded I would have been dead. And that was enough for me, but it didn't stop there. it is a relationship. a very real person.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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As you have stated, there are ample reasons to have faith but there is no evidence for the validity of beliefs based on faith. Seems like kind of the ultimate placebo, if it works for you go with it. Trust me, it's easier to believe than to not believe but for some of us there is no choice.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I feel like faith is like a box of chocholates! NO! Just kidding!
A pocket full of diamonds. And we're just going around looking for places to hand them out. Hoping; they'll come back 10 fold. At the same time trying to be confident in where we direct it
I just got rid of a car, because it had some engine malfunction, and it wouldn't always start up right away. I gotta tell ya it was really stressing me out. Walking toward itin the morning, not wanting to be late for work. I'd have an empty gut sorta feeling... So I sold it. Then I prayed and asked God to lead me to a reliable truck. Long story short. I now own a99 Toyota PU. And I picked it because I know of there reliability, durability, economy and comfort. All the traits I'm lookin for to have FAITH this thing is going to get me to work everyday. Now that I've had it for awhile. I'm super confident I should have any problems for awhile. It gives me a sense of peace. I could almost gloat! I'm prowed of my choice in vehicle. It runs Great, rides Great! Doesn't look Great? But I think it will last a long time. So I think mt FAITH in toyotas reputation has already paid off. Maybe even 10 fold. With the peace of mind. And who knows, get back to me in 5 years and see if I'm still happy. That would bE 100 fold! But what do U want from a 1600. Truck? Oh yea the lady that sold it to me lowered the price $500. She was a "Christian" too. So I have an amount off faith that my truck is going to get me wher I need to be for work. And I have an amount of faith that when I go out In the morn in the dark and load my truck of tools. When I get to the job site and set up. The Sun is going to rise and light up my work space. And I have faith in my daughters unibieded Love that when I have small shortcomings
as a parent. Shell forgive me because she knows I'm working toward an everlasting Love.
And I have the most FAITH in my Father Aboves Everlasting Love
Amen
BB
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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That wouldn't take any faith to believe at all. Bingo. What's wrong with that?
"Faith". I have faith in the REAL. It IS.
Fuck a buncha magic.
The thread was better when it was a couple folk makin' jokes.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Enjoy....wish I could be like you guys.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Splitter I really don't think we're born with faith in God. I look at my 6 yo daughter and she has no faith in Him. Matter of fact her mother says there's no such thing. And since she has her 5 days a week and me only 2 she's winning out right now. But I am teaching her to have faith in what Daddy tells her is true. Because her mommie doesn't always. I think trust has to be one of the steps toward faith? I think we're born with a certain amount of goodness. IE ; We have the 10 commandments inscribed on our souls and a hole in our heart that can only be filled by our creator.
Amen
BB
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Hey Splitter,
I see what ur Sayin about Rom. 12:3.
This is Paul speaking to the Romans,
Rom 1:5 through Him we ha e received Grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.
Rom 12:3 for I, Paul, say through the Grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of yourself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly,, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 12:4. For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function.
My side notes says;
Paul refers to his own function in the body as an authoritative apostle "through the Grace given to him". The "measure of faith" is not saving faith but the faith to receive and to exercise the gifts of God apportions to us. The "measure of faith" He gives corresponds to the role He assigns as Creator and Redeemer.
I'm going to meditate on it.
BB
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Jody, I truly appreciate your replies. I started to copy and paste and respond but realized I was just being confrontational and antagonistic. I'm not a Christian, I don't believe as you do and I don't have the faith that you do. I appreciate your thoughts as long as they don't infringe upon mine in any tangential sense. I'm sure that works in reverse. I suppose that's where it gets murky in public discourse.
All the best,
Sean
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Hey Jim what "atrocities " are U dealing with?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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MEEOOWW!
Sorry I'm bored and the cats buggin me
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Christian Circle Jerk…
nice
No way nature…. That vid deserves to be on this page.
They've got to have the knowledge:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Robb
Social climber
The other side of life
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"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends."
Been there, others did
'nuff said
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nice Robb!
Our men and women in uniform are doing this for us everyday overseas!
God Bless Them! And give them strenghth in their bodys, souls, and minds.
SO THEY CAN KICK ASS!
Amen
BB
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Since this is a "I like Christian life" thread;
God IS Good!
God has been Good to me as of late by answering prayer.
When I haven't mentioned a word to anyone of my latest stresses
wiith my daughters mother over custody rights. I feel like He's blessed me in the physical
by rewarding me with the amount, and quality of time I've had with my daughter the last couple days. Which is AWESOME for us! But more importantly. In the spiritual He has redeemed me From a shame I've been feeling from a confortation with my X. In a recent exchange with her,He provided a conformation to me about her, without her even knowing it.
Truely Geneuis! I didn't realize it till the next day.... Without a doubt could only be conducted by His hand! Praise God! I found myself praising His name all day long.
Jus praz'in
BB
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Andree Hussar
Social climber
ny
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We are having better debates on the atheist life site....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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BOOOWWWW!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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YAAWWWN...
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Sep 12, 2012 - 01:39am PT
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Andree Hussar - We are having better debates on the Atheist thread!
Sister, we are not welcome there, for whatever reason. But they are, in general, good peeps (as far as the world goes). I know it's tempting & in many ways they encourage it, but let's cut them some slack (i know we are called to go into the dark places, but there is a limit and we need to occasionally shake the dust off our feet, or at least take a breather at times). But you are obviously a strong woman ("Strong in the Lord and the strength of His might"), so I will leave it up to you...but if ya need a time out, let's share & worship here, eh? ...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
btw, she is talking about a spiritual warfare army rising up to break the chains of bondage, addiction & oppresion, etc.,! "There is power in the name of Jesus, to break every chain...!" Amen!!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:01am PT
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here's another favorite worship song of mine...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
edit: Jim Brennan - there are all types out there, bro. Ya got to use discernment. Us Christians call it 'spiritual discernment', if we have a question about it, we bring it, in prayer, to the Lord! But, in your case (as you have explained it, anyway) seems pretty obvious, deceptive perhaps. Or maybe they were simply saying that rather then wasting your money on petty things it would be better to save it, and the Lord would bless your good judgment and increase your income somehow, I don't know, I didn't watch the show. I would have to listen to the whole conversation/show before I passed judgment or, better said, object to what they were espousing! just sayin...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 02:58am PT
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"Interesting" is an interesting word but I'll never invest in it because I lost interest in the word "interest" when I discovered thesauri.
If one's truly interested in winning an argument, one ought to consult a F*#KING THESAURUS, FCS!!!
That might be an interesting thing for some of you, but if all you read is a bible, I pity you fools. I mean no disrespect for any of you or your beliefs. I respect the right to choose between the multitude of gods, Gods, goddesses, or TV evangelists, it's just that the gift of reading is too precious to waste on ONE SINGLE GOOD BOOK. It's a good book, it's just not that "interesting!"
Am I grounded, Almighty Father?
You're taking away my library card until I shape up?
Then I'll see ya, I'm going climbing and you can't stop me!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:16am PT
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MM - the gift of reading is just precious to waste on just one...
dood, talk about stereotyping. i have spent way much more time reading secular works, etc., vs the Bible/Christian material (english lit was my minor in college). But I have and do spend time in the Word each day, bro...it feeds the soul!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
and as far as those other peeps "charltan f'heads" who sell there wares in the temple for personal gain, it's a sign of the times, unfortunately...sigh!
MM - i discuss all sorts of stuff on this forum and elsewhere. i rarely bring up the topic of the bible/scriptures, etc.! haven't for over six months here. this and the atheist thread popped up and pulled us in. the other thread thrives on our input, abuses us with the same old hoopla they have been using over and over again on various threads here. big waste of time, imo! but, they sent me back over here, lol, so i obliged them! btw, me and thaDood are closely related, fwiw (since you were inquiring)! Gotta get back to bed/sleep, talk to ya lata!
"Lots and lots of peace." i here ya bro...PEACE!!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 12, 2012 - 04:46am PT
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Splitter, you know I got no problem with reading the bible, and if you have the urge to do so every day without fail, that's healthy. Or sharing it as often as possible. But I'm not one to say that's the only thing you should talk about when sharing about Scripture.
So is it asking anything of others to broaden their reading, so that when they are all "shared out" we can talk some more on other topics. Single-mindedness is not healthy.
Sharing is of the essence of Christianity. It's cool to share something else, too.
I accuse nobody of this, because we all get a little crazy sometimes, that is, our mental health suffers when we obsess. And we probably all do it at times in our lives.
Lots and lots of peace.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 12, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
The most powerful statement I have ever heard. The path to peace and the only good future for mankind.
A great link to a sermon by Martin Luther King Jr.
http://www.ipoet.com/archive/beyond/King-Jr/Loving-Your-Enemies.html
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 15, 2012 - 02:10am PT
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God was at work big time on El Cap today. For "some reason", "I" thought it might be a good idea to put fresh batteries in our radios, and make sure all the frequencies matched.
A climber would surely have died had it not been for God's intervention, the fresh batteries, and the quick actions of myself, my Believer partner Jon, and a fast-acting very smart bridge monkey Justin.
YOSAR came in, and our friend was safely air=lifted out. It was the closest I have ever had to losing a climbing partner. Buddy almost died. God's hand was in this one day.
Praise the LORD and pass the pitons!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 15, 2012 - 02:22am PT
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OH, Lord. Another close one. Just for us.
Keep us posted.
Tough luck.
Great attitude, P!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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I Like the Christian Life
funny, I like your Christian wife.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain to the righteous and the unrighteous.
It's fascinating how prayer works for me.
I was just sitting down in the facility and thinking how enjoyable the simple things are.
Add to that the fact that I have been blessed with an opportunity to ride to Facelift with our darling Lilabiene and felt all warm and fuzzy over that, particularly as I have been stewing about how to get there.
So I recited the Lord's Prayer.
As I prayed the words Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven, these thought came to me.
No place in the prayer is there a mention of the possibility of salvation. The parts about temptation and forgiveness are part of a moral code developed over centuries of living together in a hostile environment, the deserts and badlands of the middle east. The community exists based on the cooperation of its constituents. Scant resources go farther when shared and more good will is engendered by sharing in the labor, one hopes.
Anyhow, with this concept in mind, the peaceful mundane existence of the community is assured, with the proviso that all share the same morality. It's when people, being people, are tempted to give into the "sin" of lust. (See the above Posting, for example. No judgement, it is funny in typical twisted Taco fashion. I'm just pointing out a worthwhile and convenient example.) Or a variety of other "sins," just take your choice.
When things go fine, the place is a paradise. When they do not, it's hell.
Which would you prefer if you were an Israelite? Or a Sodomite?
Jesus' knowledge of people and their store of unhealthy ideas and lusts is truly a gift. It is the product of much meditation and prayer if not direct divine will.
I firmly believe this about the man.
I take this as the will of the Mother, for it could easily be called the Our Mother. It strikes me strange that the concept of "Father" is the one Jesus picked, according to Scripture. The Jews trace their lineage through the maternal line, so what gives?
I choose not to believe in the Savior aspect of Jesus' being. Am I not one of my Father's children, even though this is not my cup of wine?
See you at the Facelift.
I'm hoping for at least a glimpse of heaven before I pass to what I don't know and don't particularly care. I have had a satisfactory existence, mostly happy and free from undue amounts of grief. Each new day adds to it and the main reason I do pray is to thank whomever. It's part of my morality to thank folks. It makes them feel more inclined to "like" you on Facebook, too.
There is no reason to let one's life be ruled by unreasonable fear, I fear.
MFM
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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I have a legitimate question for any believers who care to answer.
How does praying work?
I hear about it a lot but I can't figure out if a person is allowed to pray for their life to improve and if that type of prayer is ever supposed to be answered.
For instance, lots of people pray to not die from disease and illness but lots of them die anyhow. Lots of people pray for sick loved ones and they too die anyhow. Some people pray to find a job, win a lottery, find a sexy partner, etc. and I'm sure that some of them just don't get what they ask for. Some people who don't pray find huge success and many ways including in ways that might border on spiritual.
How about some comments about how people pray and how it's working for out them? I'm serious. How does praying fit in to the Christian life?
Dave
P.S. I promise not to respond with any type of atheistic comments, just questions that a religious person might also ask.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
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God in his infinite wisdom will not give you what you pray for sometimes. HE knows best.
That's one of the things that is most interesting to me. If God knows best then praying for something to happen different from Gods plan seems futile. I can understand that maybe there is no plan since people were given free will and can somehow make their own destiny but then getting stuff by praying for it goes against the free will thing.
But really, does God win the football game for Tebow (player who gets down on a knee and prays after each game)? Isn't that making the other team lose for Tebow which makes it not much of a contest if God decides who wins. If Tebow wins the football game because he prayed and God helped him, isn't that cheating?
Maybe he's just thankful that he got to play.
How does this concept of cheating by praying fit into a typical Christian belief system?
Thanks for some insights. I think that if I were to pray, I would probably do it differently but at least praying for others is one aspect of religion that I would never condemn.
Dave
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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How do you know god is a "he"?
because some desert shepard two thousand years ago, who was male, wrote that down on parchment, called it coming from god, and hoped it would later be included in a book someone later would call the Bible?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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For me when I close my eyes and pray I feel the presence of God in and all around me.
Example; you know when you're calling one of your relatives and the phone is ringing. You have a certain feeling come over you about that person and your anticipated Conversation.
Like when I call my uncle Clarence I always feel giddy. Because I know his relaxed sense of humor always brings a smile to my face.
I've learned from praying that it's not all about bringing our needs to His attention; although important! Once when my car broke down and I couldn't get to work. I prayed for a new tundra, well I didn't get one. But that evening my neighbor came by for a visit. And I ended up getting a ride with him for a couple of months. I know he answered my prayer.to get me to work anyways! so I believe he wants us to vocalize our needs, but prayer is our direct line of communication with our Father in heaven. And through prayer He can deal with us individually. Proving that He loves each and every one of us. Once you know Hes working in your life it will humble you too sheer appreciation. Nowadays 75% of my prayers consist of thanking Him for all the goodness in my life, and that His will would be done in my life. Because I know that He knows what I need even before I ask!
God truly loves to answer prayer as long as you acknowledge and praise him for it.
In the name of Jesus that's VERY important!
Jus Pray'in
BB
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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rectorsquid, I think you raise an excellent question.
In my humble opinion, a great many people misunderstand prayer. Prayer is not a cosmic order form, but rather a conversation with God Himself. While I certainly ask Him for help, I also do a lot of silent listening as well as confession, adoration and thanksgiving.
As Miss J points out, there's nothing wrong with asking for what we (think we) want, as long as we understand that if he says "no," or "not yet" it doesn't mean that prayer is ineffectual.
To me, the difference between my prayer time and all the rest of the time is like the difference between being with someone at a sporting event in an arena with 100,000 other fans, and being alone with that person and some very good food and drink. I hear better when no one else is talking, and I understand better (and therefore ask better) when I've gotten to know the person by concentration on him or her. Same with God. Sometimes, the Holy Spirit's voice is so urgent that I cannot help but hear Him, but often there is so much "noise" in my life that His voice gets lost in my mind. The latter situation is why I need to pray.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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Norton,
In Hebrew, God has a pronoun unique to God, and different from he or she. In Greek, lacking that pronoun, convention made it He. That being said, Jesus referred to my "father," not my "father and mother," and to the Holy Spirit as a "he," (at least as translated in the Gospels -- again written in Greek), not a "she," "he and she" or an "it."
Since God created "man" (i.e. humanity) in God's own image, both male and female, this always suggested to me that God was more than what God would be if limited by gender.
Then again, while I'm on creation, there's always Sheridan Anderson's old character Washoe Ike, who said, "God created man. Then God created woman. Consequently, man created alcohol."
John
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 25, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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John,
TRUE DAT!
BB
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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There are times when I pray. I pray when people near and dear to me are struggling. I think this is the way it works for me:
I only pray if I am able to focus well on the prayer and the person I am praying for. During the prayer I get a strong feeling of being connected - maybe this is only once more to say that I am focused. Then after the prayer I always feel relief, maybe catharsis is a word that can be used. There's a trivial purity and beauty to it. I seldom pray. I'm mostly atheist and no agnostic.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
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JohnE said:
Since God created "man" (i.e. humanity) in God's own image, both male and female, t
John, a couple of questions if you would
since you said it above, do you "really" believe that god looks like a modern man does?
about six feet tall, two legs, two arms, a heart and lungs, etc?
I guess you do
second question, do you personally believe in the literal translation of the bible as being fully the word of god, including all of its tales of Genesis and Creationism, god ordering humans to enslave, rape, and murder each other, human evolution as bunk?
If not the above literal, than why would you believe that god has a human image?
how or why did you cherry pick that part of the bible to say is true, and the other "bad" parts not?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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Marlow, Socrates would like that, maybe. Can't speak for him. I know I like it. Gos bless. I'll be thinking of you at Facelift.
And Fresno John, let me thank you for the explication of gender in Scripture. The Greeks have left us many gifts. Too bad they didn't wear Trojans!!!
That f*#king "Sherry Dan" Derson!!! So good when needed...RIP, brother.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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since you said it above, do you "really" believe that god looks like a modern man does?
about six feet tall, two legs, two arms, a heart and lungs, etc?
I guess you do
I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion, Norton. Since God is spirit, I don't know what God the Father or God the Holy Spirit looks like, and since I never saw God the Son, I only assume He looked like any other man, as Isaiah said, and had nothing about His physical appearance to distinguish him.
But yes, I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture (but apparently my spell check doesn't, since it refuses to recognize "inerrancy" as a word.) As for literalness, however, some parts state explicitly that they are not literal but figurative (see, e.g. the visions of Ezekiel or those in Revelation, that say that they saw something "like" or "as if.") The historical narrative, including all of creation, I take as historical narrative.
However, when Genesis 1, for example, says that God created everything in six days, (the Hebrew word, yom meaning "day") how long are those days? The Bible doesn't tell us that, though it gives some clues. For example, the sun was not created until Day 4, so it seems likely, to me, at least, that a "day" in Genesis 1 wasn't measured by the time it takes the earth to make one revolution. Besides, relativity tells us that time depends on who's looking and how fast they're going, so the creation narrative doesn't strike me as all that far-fetched, but frankly I don't care. The size of my puny mind doesn't limit God.
More importantly, Eden was clearly in Armenia, so the narrative must be true!
John
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 25, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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God created man in his own image; not the human image ! "Cherry Picker"
I think what He's referring to is body, mind and soul...
If you step ahead a few chapters you learn that man has a susceptibility to ego
I think the Lord may have a problem with it also
Why else would he allow one angel Lucifer to pull us all out of Heaven.
And put us here on this planet
And have to deal with people like Norton
Jus Ask'in
BB
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
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I like the ATHEIST life. . .
'just sayin'
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
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i have climbed so many mountains / just to reach the other side
and ive near drowned myself in freedom / just to feed my foolish pride
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Nov 12, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Heal my heart and make it clean
Open up my eyes to the things unseen
Show me how to love like You have love me
Break my heart for what breaks yours
Everything I am for your kingdoms cause
As I walk from earth into eternity
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 27, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Noel Carol Christiani (no relation to Rick), wherever you are, your name still is music to my ears.
Go tell it on the mountain.
Wherever, whoever, whatever Ember is, this is seasonal.
And it sounds really grateful.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 15, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
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April 14: HEAVEN’S HEALING
“They that know Thy name will put their trust in Thee: for Thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek Thee” (Psalm 9:10). “God will… save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing” (Isaiah 35:4-6). “Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself… comfort your hearts” (2 Thessalonians 2:16,17).
They that put their trust in Christ Shall have the healing heaven gives. Our Lord for this was sacrificed, Was raised to life,and ever lives.
The Lord shall open blinded eyes. He shall unstop the deafened ear. The lame shall leap with glad surprise. The mute shall sing with heaven’s cheer.
How great is heaven’s remedy That heals the sickness of our soul, That fits us for eternity, And pays our ransom note in full!
There’s no one else who can provide This healing Jesus Christ imparts. The Lord resists the heart of pride, Yet gives His grace to humble hearts.
We thank You,Lord,for heaven’s healing And for Your sacrificial love Upon the cross You were revealing And shall unveil more above.
How well,O Lord,You’ve done all things! We see Your beauty,hear Your voice, We walk with You,the King of kings, And with our loosened tongues rejoice!
Lord,send us forth with ready feet, With eyes,with ears,and voice to tell That heaven’s healing is complete By which You save a soul from hell.
http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com/
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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When times are tough and I worry about my relationship with my partner, this passage always does give me some succor:
“So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.” Judges 19:25-28
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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(Malachi 2:3) "I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces!" Hmm, sounds like an episode of Jackass to me.
"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight." (Ezekiel 4:12)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 15, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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Thanks Truthdweller !
HEAR, HEAR, I know the name Jesus! I know as fact he will meet anyone right where
their at. Anytime. Anywhere. He IS there! He knows me way better than I know myself.
And he proves it over and over... He even knows how many hairs on your head. Do
You know that about yourself? And that's just material bs. Importantly, He knows
what you need spiritually. Just ask Him.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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Oh, I guess you are right, he IS everywhere
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Apr 15, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
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Hey Cowboy Getty-Up
It's always proud when scripture is quated on the taco.
But maybe ur reason is misconstrued.
These sentences were written by men, 3500 yrs ago. I hope you read on to understand how God delt with mans inequitys.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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I guess I don't really understand your wording: "get where their at." Is this some type of jive speak? Does Gawd speak jive? I hope so, because I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOU. Have faith though, Gawd might help you out in the spelling/English dept.
Gawd doesn't seem to deal much with man's inequity: read here http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3220.
OOhhhh! I see, you meant to write iniquity. Well as far as Gawd dealing with the iniquities of man, I suppose that female genital mutilation, cocaine-addled child soldier cannibals, etc in Africa really don't speak to Gawd's caring or not caring. I really need to read the Book to see just how equitably and rightly Gawd deals with evil and badness, right? But I gotta say, Psalm 32:2 "Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit," sure sounds a lot like a selective accounting by the big G for iniquities and the like. Does this mean that pedophile priests get to go to Heaven?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
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Ok. You can have your voodoo gobbledeegook fairy tale. I will stop bumping it up. I hope you do the same: I hate to get all ugly on you, but damn, this stuff is not really fit for public forums. Please keep yer mumbojumbo to yerselves. You don't hear me talking about my god, the one true god, his carb-laden goodness the ol' FSM, unbidden.
My apologies if I've offended you. Seriously though, this is hardly the place for proselytizing.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 15, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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So why is it acceptable to beat up or make fun of Christians, but not Moslems? Why is there no Moslem hatred here?
There is a good Jewish thread someplace, but at least it is mostly in good fun.
My 93-year-old mom was recently diagnosed with cervical cancer. Today she had a full-on hysterectomy, and she came through with flying colours. And [barely] without flying puke.
So it would appear God still has plans for her, and for that I'm thankful to Him. So there's today's profession of faith. Yay for God!
However as a Woman of Great Faith, she had already resigned herself to His Will, and was pretty cool about the whole thing. Plus, I think she felt better when I told her I had no problem with the surgeons removing all that stuff, because I had no further use for it. {wink}
And I pray for comfort to the families of those hurt and killed in Boston.
In Him,
PTL and PTP Pete
As per below, I'm a big fan of Proverbs.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 15, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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April 15: HEART HELPER
“LORD, Thou hast heard the desire of the humble: Thou wilt prepare their heart, Thou wilt cause Thine ear to hear” (Psalm 10:17). “The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good... Hell and destruction are before the LORD: howmuch more, then, the hearts of the children of men?... The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honor is humility” (Proverbs 15:3,11,33).
Before a word is even spoken, The Lord by His examination Can hear the humble heart that’s broken That will desire His salvation.
The Lord has searched our deepest part; His eyes are found in every place. No thought is hidden in our heart That God does not completely trace.
The Lord can see that we’re inclined To walk in darkness and to stumble, And therefore He instructs our mind To turn from pride and to be humble.
It is His fear that gives instruction, To sense accountability, To free us from our pride’s seduction, And turn us in humility.
We see the wonder of God’s love That causes Him to thus prepare Our hearts that we may dwell above, That where He is,we may be there.
The horrible alternative To heaven is eternal hell. Our Savior died that He might give By grace a place with Him to dwell.
The Lord is helping hearts today To turn to Him in true surrender. He thus prepares our hearts to pray, That He may be our soul’s Defender.
O Lord,we thank You that You search And help our hearts to come to You, And thus You’re adding to Your Church The humbled souls of those who do.
So teach us in our fleeting days To show to others what You gave: The grace that surely does amaze Our hearts that You have stooped to save!
http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com/
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 15, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
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Does this mean that pedophile priests get to go to Heaven?
I'd have to say that it would take a God with a supernatural amount of mercy (not getting what we deserve), and an equal amount of grace (getting what we don't deserve) to accept someone like that:
Luke 23:39-43 KJV
"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other (insert the "pedophile priest" here) answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
You have an awesome God cowboy.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
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yes, all you fellas with faith in Gawd will statistically live longer, happier lives for it. good on you. enjoy that.
i like the idea that there is something greater, sure. but i don't dare to assume that my tiny little mind could describe that greater essence or to blargle about it to other folk. except now. cause i am doing it back to you.
this is fine. we can keep the thread and still disagree, right? i don't hate you for your beliefs, i am just kinda over hearing about them. it's like that roommate you had in college who always just jacked it waaaaay too much. i'm sick of hearing you boys slap your Christ-meat around. i'ma start slapping my non-Christ meat back atcha, fair?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
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seriously though, what's up with the doodoo cakes? anyone 'splain that to me? i mean i wouldn't do that to *anyone*. a little context might be nice, because you know i didn't read it.
how is this book not deemed profane? i mean the things it describes are far worse than the material of many books that were blacklisted in the years of yore. do you folks let your kids read this stuff?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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if there were muslims slammin' the allah sausage in my face, i would be teasing them too. at least they have a cool proposed afterlife. why doesnt the big j throw me some incentive, and i mean real reward. like virgins. or a pile of drugs the size of k2. a corvette? something would be nice.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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good on you. ,.
Not any more:
1 Corinthians 2:1-4, 14 KJV
"And I, (cowboy), when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:"
"But the natural man (cowboy) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he (cowboy) know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Do what you know cowboy,
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
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if there were muslims slammin' the allah sausage in my face, i would be teasing them too. at least they have a cool proposed afterlife.
there's a distinct difference though.
while both consider you a heathen and bound for hell,
one considers it his duty to convince you to change your ways of your own free will,
and the other,
to send you to your eternal punishment as soon as quickly and painfully as possible.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Apr 15, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
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I Like the Christian Life
Yeah, well - I am a student of history, and it ain't looking too rosy from here, Pal.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 16, 2013 - 12:56am PT
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i dunno fellas, i'm just really knott all that convinced here: sure yusuf might slit my throat if i don't join him but at least he'll kick me some real share of the prophets [sic]. when christ can offer me some virgins, when god actually gives a damn, when his omnipotence is not such a bullshchick Viagra act, when you boys can actually convince me that the universe truly thinks we're as special and worthwhile as you Christian fecks seem so sure....well then maybe i'll kiss yer pope's ring or eat the soggy cracker or whatever you guys do. at least with yusuf all the prostrating towards the East is kinda like yoga. and besides you dogs do lust after me lady if i don't keep her covered.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 16, 2013 - 01:12am PT
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mormon or methodist, muslim or whatever, all you want is my money. and to feel better about whatever makes you feel bad in life. so go on, take yer story and run with it. but ye gits none of my funds. unless i get seven virgins and a corvette in my next go 'round.
well, wait, i've done some things that i regret; maybe you can help me after all. do you folks still offer those nifty little Indulgences?
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troutbreath
climber
Kanada
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Apr 16, 2013 - 01:36am PT
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"Better to give than recieve" can mean a few things. Depends were your standing.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 11:27am PT
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While foul people have on occasion used Christianity to enrich themselves or wreak injustice on others;
The vast majority of Christians are good people using a perfectly good faith to enrich their lives.
This includes many of our good friends here in this forum.
So why not be friendly and grant our Christian friends this thread to express their joy, post their favorite biblical passages, and what ever else is positive about this great faith that has brought civilization to the Western World.
There are many other threads for doubt, arguments of logic, and pointing out flaws and contradictions.
While I am not a Christian, I can respect those who use this faith to make their lives better. I would fight to the death to defend their freedom to choose this path. I think you would too.
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 16, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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nutjob
Sport climber
Almost to Hollywood, Baby!
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Apr 16, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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I think the main thing that attracts attacks against Christianity, other than the foul things that have been done its name, is that it fundamentally uses a divisive crutch to create a special identity for a group of people.
Why not keep all the socially constructive values of a religion (friendliness and brotherhood and charity etc.) and dump the socially destructive parts (identity creation through making a distinct group with a set of specific beliefs and language that excludes others).
The bottom line for me is that religions take the easy way out, exploiting a common weakness in people, the need to belong, and using that weakness to lean against each other in a self-supporting group that has the side-effect of rejecting others not in that group.
I would prefer to support a social system that does not require the exclusion or demonification of others to create a sense of security or belonging. I don't need to make everyone believe like me to know who I am or what is right or wrong for me.
Sorry if it's all been covered here already.
Edit: All that said, I don't really have an issue with people who choose Christianity as a way to bond with each other. In a uniform society it works well, and I think most people don't have the specific intention to exclude others, they are just grasping for straws to have a meaningful connection with each other. I think that is a beautiful thing. For me personally, I worry about the side effects of exclusivity or requirements for being accepted as equals, and I can follow a different path to get to the same place.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 16, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
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It's certainly not clear to me that the Christian Life is better than the lives lived by members of other faiths. I wonder though if the lives lived by non-believers might be more thoughtful.
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GuapoVino
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
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My ex mother-in-law was a minister. Bat sh#t crazy, she turned me into an atheist. That's the only positive thing I can think of to say about her.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Apr 16, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
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Christian here.
Regardless of your beliefs I would be glad to have a beer or coffee with 99% of the folks on stuportaco.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Apr 16, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
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PR certainly is NOT a christian Icon to me.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 16, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
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"While I am not a Christian..."
No kidding? I am very curious as to why you started the thread. Do tell!
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 16, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
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Yeah, what gives, spidey?
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thebravecowboy
Social climber
Colorado Plateau
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Apr 16, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 16, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
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Christian porn stars...? Now there's an oxymoron...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 20, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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The guy is all talk...He needs to rub one out and get over it..Oh , he's from Kentucky..? Might have something to do with his quandry...?
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| Messages 1 - 452 of total 452 in this topic |
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