Discussion Topic |
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The Chief
climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 23, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
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Does this mean they give him his cancer back too?
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skywalker
climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
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Bummer,
Was a hero to many many people even beyond cycling.
S...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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Whatever...!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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Lance didn't really dope....Common sense tells me so...RJ
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jmap
Social climber
NC
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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What a total crock of sh#t. There's not a clean cyclist in the peloton.
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Sonic
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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Still would be hard to win a tour de France with doping.
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mitchy
Trad climber
new england
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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So the cat is getting rail roaded, and is sick of the BS.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
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Chief...There is no such thing as doping...Doping is a cyclical thing....RJ
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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Armstrong does not recognize agency's right to ban him
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrongs-full-statement-on-usada
Statement by Lance Armstrong
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today - finished with this nonsense. I had hoped that a federal court would stop USADA's charade. Although the court was sympathetic to my concerns and recognized the many improprieties and deficiencies in USADA's motives, its conduct, and its process, the court ultimately decided that it could not intervene.
If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and - once and for all - put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?
From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA's improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA's own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers' expense.
For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today. The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged ex teammate can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It's an unfair approach, applied selectively, in opposition to all the rules. It's just not right.
USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially not Travis Tygart.
Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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What a f*#king joke. It's like giveing sport climbers sh#t for pre hung draws.... i bet there was nobody in the top 20 that was not dopeing.........
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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I bet there are some of those TDFs that at least the top 5 have been accused of doping. I do know that the yellow jersey for the 2004 TDF will be given to Roberto Albertini. He crashed out during the prologue. Since he never finished a stage he never was tested. Now he is a TDF Champion!!!
VIVA Albertini!!!!!!!
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pazzo
climber
Vancouver BC
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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If they all dope then who cares. It’s fair right?
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
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Why do they need to break down everything, make such a stink that we can't have heroes anymore? If he passed then, why does he have to keep dealing with the questions years later? It doesn't feel right, or fair...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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That is so fckin weak.. give it to the only guy we didn't catch dopeing and we only did not catch him because he did not finish.........
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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I've seen no proof that he doped. I have no idea if he did or not. It is clear that Millions of dollars have been spent trying to discredit him.. but still no PROOF?
Odd isn't it.
Without PROOF, he is innocent.
That is all.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
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So, chiefman, why do have such a hard-on for this? He doped? He didn't dope? What knowledge do you actually have? Seems you just get a giant boner at the thought of pushing some hero off a pedestal.
Suppose he did dope. Strip him of his titles, and...
...and what? Award the win to whatever doper placed second?
And don't tell me that all those guys that placed second were clean when the guy that placed first wasn't. You've got no more clue about that than about whether or not Armstrong doped.
Or do you? Do you have all the evidence, but somehow were just too busy to bring it to the cycling authorities?
Who gives a flying f*#k? The guy, doper or not, was a better cyclist than all the other dopers he raced against, and also did something none of them did -- raised half a billion for cancer research.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
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Bingo!
heck there were losers dopeing in our gym who had never won anything significant and you know damn well all the top guys wrer doing the same crap X10. BFD
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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Hey The Chief . . . you are the f*#king pathetic loser. What have you dedicated you efforts to, besides being a willy waver?
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
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It's hard to believe that someone of Armstrong's tenacity and dedication would roll over and choose not to fight anymore if he was truly innocent . Is it impossible for him to focus on his charity and fight the charges?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
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Perhaps after years of battle he has decided that he will never be exonerated in that process, so continued engagement has no upside.
That indicates nothing about whether he is guilty or innocent. Just that he's done fighting what he thinks is a pointless fight. Giving up a pointless fight is not inconsistent with being a champion and fighting long odds where it matters and where one's actions can influence the outcome.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
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According to the article , only the UCI has the power to ban Lance , not USADA....Wha , wha , wha , wha...!
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
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That is why LA threw in the towel today. Whatever dude . . . you are still an as#@&%e.
There is no false hero . . . just an extremely pathetic nobody that is dissing on someone that has accomplished something in their life.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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There are better things to spend our tax dollars on!!!
I propose that those dollars be spent on research into, or solutions to, the global warming problem. This actually has two huge advantages: first, it channels time, money, and human energy into something useful instead of a complete waste, and second, The Chief will hate it just as much! The rest of us get some real benefit, and he gets to keep on ranting -- it's a win/win!
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pc
climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
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+1 on the bingo.
It's just frickin' entertainment. Who cares? And he does a lot of good for folks who don't have any hope at all.
7 new TdF winners? Joke. Though I'd love to see Jan Ullrich get one of them.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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Man, what a mess.
What would really kill me, though, is losing the rockin' girl
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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Does this mean they give him his cancer back too?
Sounds like The Chief probably wouldn't mind that either.
Curt
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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no one ever seriously thought he did not dope. It's fecking cycling, they all dope. BFD..............
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Eggs ackley, my man! Majority of dopers, minority of non-dopers, anyway. They all seem to admit this. Coyly, of course.
Chief, the Tea Party needs you, bud.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
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I might be an as#@&%e but not close to the LOOOOOOOOOOOOSER lying cheat that swindle all you sheep out there over the years into believing he was a perfect saint and then stole millions in prize money and endorsements.
Who ever implied that anyone is a saint? You've got some issues dude . . . professional sports are all about performance enhancement. Cyclists have been "enhancing" long before Lance was even born. Pull your pin head out of your ass and focus on your issues.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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Ghost, I am sure you agree:
The fox smells his own hole
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
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Let me ask you this: if you didn't dope, and came in 2nd place to Lance, would your thoughts be different?
I always wondered if the loss of the testosterone which the other (missing) ball should have pumped out was never an issue nor slowed the man down. Clearly the man has drive and talent. He wouldn't back off so easily if he thought he could win his case.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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ghost,
Seems you just get a giant boner at the thought of pushing some hero off a pedestal.
LOL!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 23, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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I doped when I climbed El Cap,.....ten times........
Damn, are y'all gonna take my titles away?????
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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That is the tale of our society... regardless the truth.
Give me a fukking break. The last thing you care about is truth. Maybe LA doped and maybe he didn't--I have no absolute proof either way and neither do you. Doping is/was rampant in cycling and likely as not, the guy who finished second to LA in each TDF was doping. All you seem truly passionate about is tearing down a legend.
Curt
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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THis is a joke. They all dope. They should simply go after the new winners the way they went after Lance until they accept bans and then go after the third place guys
Sure, they try to avoid being technically tested on the wrong side of the law and Lance beat all that, so they go after him anyway
Peace
Karl
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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Example, Tiger Woods.
Yeah, Tiger's really hurting. Do you just hate all Americans?
A legend in your own minds. Not nor ever was in mine. Fact is, was not in many others either.
Hell, if he had a rocket super glued to his ass the last ten years and outright cheated and still won, you all would be in the same bs "Legend" sand box.
While you're on your pathological mission, why not strip Michael Phelps of his London medals for the Louis Vuitton ads?
Curt
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:07am PT
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BFD if Lance doped...I think his other accomplishments , surviving cancer and living the grueling lifestyle of a pro rider far out shine any accusations the peanut gallery can throw at him...And do i have to mention the exposure Armstrong gave to the American cycling industry...? RJ
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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He's every bit the hero that Barry Bonds is...oh and Michael Vick...Pete Rose...
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:10am PT
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Funny, how things change. The poster boy of cycling, being hunted by those who promoted him, because he was great for the sport and ratings. Same bullshit with baseball, when Sosa and McGuire were battling for the single season home run record. MLB pumped it up for ratings, then crucified them when doping became a problem. Like they didn't support the ratings and money it brought and played dumb in knowing it was happening. All the same sh#t to make money and guess what they're using Armstrong to get headlines again. "don't hate the player, hate the game" actually don't hate any of it, it's just a game and who gives a sh#t.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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By the agreed upon standards in place, he did not dope, PERIOD. A+B samples, positive...they didn't have them, thus no evidence. Hearsay from the pelton is not a positive sample. Some wankers with a hard on for LA, also not a positive sample.
My intial thoughts were:
1. Who the F$%^k is the USADA, and
2. On what planet are they living if they think they have some kind of authority over who does or does not hold the TDF titles.
These clowns are so far out to lunch they're having a picnic on Mars. I wouldn't bother with them either if I were him. "You're stripping my titles? Bwhahaha, you don't have the authority dipshits. You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"
Good for LA. At some point you have to say "enough is enough".
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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No one's immune. I heard they were investigating Donini next....
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MisterE
Social climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:17am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:18am PT
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You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"
LOL
I thought the same thing.
Hows that work anyways?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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Chief...What Tour did Jack Shite ride in...? RJ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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I heard Donini was the Tiger Woods of camp four...?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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Chief has a good argument so we'll just have to see how it plays out.
This will be vedy interesting .......
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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Meanwhile the artic melts...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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No one's immune. I heard they were investigating Donini next....
Geez. I thought that one would stay buried. But since you bring it up, what I heard is that Donini accidentally combined the doses for all four guys on that Latok trip into his own syringe. It gave him super powers, but once the investigation gets rolling they'll definitely strip him of all his first ascents.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:29am PT
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Chief has a good argument so we'll just have to see how it plays out.
This will be vedy interesting .......
If The Chief were less selective in his outrage, he might have something. This will be interesting, though.
Curt
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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The UCI owes the USADA nothing. As a matter of fact, they may resent this. Let's wait and see. Looks like a chess game. May not save him though.
Pretty lame to bring it so far after the fact. Someone has a big ol' hairy hard on to take Lance down.
Good reason for pictures of Sheryl. Thanks E ;-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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By the time they get done DQing riders there will be no records in the tour.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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Pretty lame to bring it so far after the fact. Someone has a big ol' hairy hard on to take Lance down.
The Chief runs USADA? I guess everything makes perfect sense now.
Curt
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:39am PT
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OH NO! He f*#ked up the Ride Around France game!
Hurry, let's get Congress involved!!!!
F*#king Americans. Want the biggest heroes, with the biggest muscles and the best times. So focused on being #1 that we forget sometimes that to be #1 means you have be a very, very smart cheater.
Cycling is on the extreme low-technical end. I am not in any way, shape, or form a voice in the cycling world but here's whats up.
The less technical prowess needed, the more of an effect supplimentation is going to have.
cycling is so simplistic that it is one of the most even playing fields. This isn't MMA where some guys are wrestlers, some guys strike, some guys do both. This isn't climbing where some guys boulder, some like to rope up.
Sh#t, this isn't even Alpinism, where the weather and conditions can make litmus tests impossible.
This is like Nordic skiing, a game of V02 Max. It is performing 'almost' in a vacuum. Yes, there is skill involved - I used to be a competitive runner (kind of still am, but I compete terribly. I know all about competing in very straightforward, very boring sports.)
Long story short, Congress met more for the Steroid scandal in baseball than the Iraq or Afghanistan war.
We love underdogs. We love old dogs. We love happy stories. That's why Lance made us all feel like we got kicked in the dick.
Americans don't own his triumphs, no more than we own his defeats. He was a dude, who f*#ked up. The fact that people feel so shitty to him is absolutely, stunningly mind boggling.
Educate yourselves on PED's, on TRT, on blood doping. Then train at a world class level. Then have the entire country behind you, expecting a win; anything else is failure. Have some empathy.
When I was 12 I beat the f*#k out of a small jewish kid in junior high. He wasn't cool, was super tiny, and was kind of an as#@&%e. One day I snapped, and gave it to him. I don't remember his name, or a lot about it, but it was the shittiest, lowest I've felt in my life, and it stays with me to this day. I'm going to bet that my f*#k up hurt the world a lot less than a road cyclist trying to use a banned substance.
Am I disappointed? Sure. I wanted it to be real, too, because that pull of Patriotism and familiarity is pretty strong. I wish he made better decisions, but for his own good. To be honest, the only reason almost any of us are rooting for him is because his parents decided to sh#t him out in Texas instead of Tehran.
If after reading my rant, if you haven't found peace and solice (not likely, sh#t I don't even got that) I have one last thought. How much have YOU raised to cure cancer? I hope it's a lot. I haven't done sh#t.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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There are millions of dollars in endorsements and prize money at stake here
Sh#t, I wonder why he cheated... LOL
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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I think they should take away the Rolling Stones' gold (and platinum) albums. Those guys were doped out of their minds!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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And we are surprised?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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Bill Koch once said that the fastest athletes would still be the fastest even if they were not on PEDs...
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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Nope. I just read the facts....
Oh please. I live in Arizona and am quite familiar with political persecution by kangaroo courts.
Curt
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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I hope you know Chief, I mean no disrespect - some here seem content to perform ad-hominem, but you have a very valid points. I just can't get worked up about it anymore.
edit - I have no idea who that photo is, but I don't have TV and only use the internet for slandering people online and porn : /
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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Chief...Is that one of your russian friends...?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:50am PT
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Actually I think its the rat that trained the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Master Splinter?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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who gets all those El Cap FA's?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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According to the article , only the UCI has the power to ban Lance , not USADA....Wha , wha , wha , wha...!
Correct, and UCI asked USADA to turn the investigation over to them. USADA refused. To me that speaks volumes. I hope UCI returns the favor and tells USADA to pound sand.
Curt
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:05am PT
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Actually Lance wanted to do this triathlon recently and got kicked out by these guys who are after him.
So technically he's really not fully retired ..... :-)
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:09am PT
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You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"
LOL
I thought the same thing.
Hows that work anyways?
Werner got to it just before me, Lance was going to do Ironman Hawaii, it was going to be a big deal.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:16am PT
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"John Wayne never wore Lycra"
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:17am PT
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^^^really^^^^
No big deal to me
I meant from a media standpoint. Even LA doing it drugged to the hilt couldn't get me to watch the horrible coverage of the Ironman.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:17am PT
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Wait a minute.
Now why you hating Susie????
:-)
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:20am PT
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How can anyone be surprised? Most other winning Tour riders over the past 15+ years have been popped for doping at some point. Also, the main risk for men who take steroids is, hello, testicular cancer.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:26am PT
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The USADA's arrogance in believing that they can strip Lance of his titles even though they have no jurisdiction over that issue speaks volumes to me. Few things are scarier than an enforcement agency that has no understanding or concern about the limits of its power.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:35am PT
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France surrendered.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:45am PT
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France was also right next to Germany. Isolation for the win!
U S A! U S A!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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Sport is whatever people create. Once it gets big enough, armchair sportsmen/politicians can get involved and make money from advertising and make rules and boss people around. I can't imagine if they applied this to rock climbing, doing drug tests on everyone before they got on El Cap, timing them, allowing them only certain cams or nuts with weight restrictions on gear, putting advertising and cameras all over the wall with inflatable finish lines at the top, etc. Looks clownish when you put it all into our context.
I respect Lance for saying 'screw you, I'm going to ride my bike'. I would say the same thing to them if they tried to get involved in climbing. Most climbers would, as soon as the drug tests started!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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I take this as a confession, although he is still in denial. Seeing the Tour this year made me think that they are finally starting to get somewhere with the anti-dope work within cycling.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:33am PT
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massive doping conspiracy
Is Licky doing the book?
Bicycle riding should be banned from the world of dope. It's giving entrepreneurial job creators a bad name.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:05am PT
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Breaking news:
Ali accepts lifetime ban from boxing for using the rope-a-dope.
Sonny Liston revives himself from the grave for another title run, is scheduled to meet Lance Armstrong in cage fight.
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Damn this looks high
Trad climber
Temecula, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:31am PT
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Here's why doping matters.
A child grows up on a bicycle and develops a great love for cycling, dreaming of making it to the professional ranks, winning big races, like the Tour de France. If doping is rampant--if everyone does it--then that child ultimately has to make a decision: either dope or give up on the dream that has consumed his or her life.
DOPE or GIVE UP YOUR DREAM.
That's a decision no person should have to make and no parent should have to imagine for his child.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:18am PT
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What bothers me as much as the actual doping (which, almost certainly he did) is the lying to everybody about it. I can't imagine what it must be like to lie to everybody, all of the time and to then lash out against the knowing accusers and call THEM liars. He (and the rest of them who have cheated) must have an unreal ability to compartmentalize.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:36am PT
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The Chief... seek help. You have a lot of hate for something that probably doesn't affect you in any real way.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:29am PT
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Who is Lance Armstrong?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:30am PT
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You know Jim, that was always the argument against baseball.
I'm 5'7" on a good day. My dad was on the US Men's national Volleyball team. My favorite athlete was Michael Jordan. From age 2 to 15 I loved nothing more than Basketball, and to an extent volleyball.
Then I didn't grow. High school basketball coach said I was too short, only men's rec league for volleyball around was a complete joke. I wasn't BAD at these sports, I mean heck, I trained maybe 3 hours a day on my home court.
My dream got crushed because I was a short f*#k. Yeah, some guys can be short too and play those sports (my dad is 6'5", and I was a huge kid, so I figured I would be tall, too). But really... nope. You won't find many avenues for success.
Build your children to love and honor themselves. Idols are just people, Michael Jordan is a huge jerkoff to media and fans. Instill a belief system and values not based on a multi-millionaire. Sure, kids are going to gravitate towards 'heroes,' but the world is a sick place and the emperor has no clothes. Cycling is broken, and I agree, should be fixed. It absolutely should NOT be something that you can't compete with unless you make those decisions.
But that's cycling's problem. Maybe at the highest level there really IS no way to compete at the world class level with out some kind of foul play? Better break it to Junior early, rather than later...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:43am PT
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probably worth mention on this thread, one of george carlin's last routines was something called "it can kill you".
he began by introducing himself as an old f*#k, and went on to make an important distinction between an old f*#k and an old fart.
later, quite worked up, he declared,
"f*#k lance armstrong! f*#k him and his steroids! and while we're at it, f*#k tiger woods!"
the applause was thunderous.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:03am PT
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LOL !!!!
If Lance didn't dope, hes the greatest cyclist EVER, because he beat all the others that doped like hell.
If Lance doped, hes still the greatest cyclist EVER, because everyone doped and he still beat them...
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steve shea
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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I guess Lance may have doped. So what. The doping and cycling success, to me are irrelevant. To have two feet in the grave, survive and compete at his level was an inspiration for me. I got cancer and obviously see this through that prism. LA helped me deal with it. Chief has been on a similar rant before. Pretty entertaining really. Like the Swiftboaters, current Teabagger Seals, and racist scientifically ignorant bible thumpers, where do you get the hate? You look so life like.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:07am PT
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not having read through this thread, have we discussed top rockclimbers who dope? magic mushrooms? top climbers who are dopes?
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:11am PT
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those panzy ass frenchies are just scared of a one balled wonder putting them all to shame on their own turf.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:18am PT
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ONCE again.....couldn't agree more with Werner. Over 500 test SINCE 2000, ALL negative. Either the testing process is worthless.....500 tests,0 positives, or Armstrong is legit.
Would be like you getting convicted of murder, with NO proof other than from other convicted murderers who said you did it.
The testing NEEDS to get it's act together, one way or another.
Peace
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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Well as far as F*cKing people, given a choice I'd take Tiger's former wife (only after my current one, though).
Tony raises some interesting points, No?
What about surfers who ride the Pipleline or the Wedge on acid?
BTW, is LSD banned in cycling?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:36am PT
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omg 130 posts...
Back in the day I bought LIVESTRONG yellow bracelet. I want my 1$ back!
500 tests,0 positives, or Armstrong is legit.
Or he had used a substance that he was not tested for. They know when they will be tested, and how much time it takes for substance to leave the body. Guys like this do not take roids from Mexico, they take real custom made sh#t legit docs work on.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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In another note, Sparks writes, "Among the Court's concerns is the fact that USADA has targeted Armstrong for prosecution many years after his alleged doping violations occurred, and intends to consolidate his case with those of several other alleged offenders, including - incredibly - several over whom USA Cycling and USOC apparently have no authority whatsoever. Further, if Armstrong's allegations are true, and USADA is promising lesser sanctions against other allegedly offending riders in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that USADA is motivated more by politics and a desire for media attention than faithful adherence to its obligations to USOC."
And this is too good to pass up:
Most here that adore and defend LA are in the 99% group that totally disdains and hate Wall Street.
 The Chief |
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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I was thinking? Oh yeah, my brain did it? :-)
Armstrong is HUGE, he's a monster, bigger than anything around.
Is this really gonna happen?
Or I bet somebody is gonna put a stop to it?
Obama??????
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
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Long live Lance! he is the best no matter what.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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You'd have to see the quality and the quantity of the females following him on the TdF to fully appreciate the magic of the LA Brand. I'm Jelly.
@ The Chief - Why all the rage here? On a climbing forum? Did you take it to a forum where you'll get a real reaction? Can't see it. Put it at the thread below. Should be awesome. Like your Battleship Wisconsin Photo.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4125568;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
Personally, I dunno where the Frick they get off doing this so much later. Like the powers that be suddenly decide Al Gore really did win in 2000. You'd think there would be some sort of limit.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
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They know when they will be tested
actually they don't always know. If they are leading a race or won a stage/race then they know. There are some pretty funny stories about guys sitting in resturants (or just in public) and having to get tested.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Aug 24, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
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His life was becoming ALL about doping instead of about cancer, charity, etc. If he did it or not, it sucks that others keep on this stuff constantly until someone is defeated emotionally and has given years of their life doing nothing but defending themselves. Until I have been in a similar position, I do not know if I would fight to the death or just want to move on.
But I guess The Chief has been there and fought to the bitter end. How else would he know that LA is guilty.
Guilty until proven innocent is becoming the norm in our society. Too bad for those guys (LA or not) who are innocent and get reamed (literally?).
Dave
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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Tempest in a teapot.
Athletic excellence is about human performance not body chemistry.
What gets me is DQing people for testing positive for weed.
Hell, if they still win they should get their medal adorned with little bud clusters!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
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Weed must be a performance enhancing substance.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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The butt hurt guys are Frankly Andreau and Johnathan Vaughters who thought they had the ability to win those races if everyone was clean. Those two dip shits couldnt figure out they were the only clean guys and everyone else was doping.
Vaughters admitted to doping.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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Just so everyone is clear... blood doping is nothing like steroids. 'dope' just happens to be what people from the 50's called anything schedule 1.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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So it's different from the medical dope that's an important part of the bicycle community around here.
( at least it's important among the Mountain Bike community )
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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From the AP:
The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency erased 14 years of Lance Armstrong's career Friday — including his record seven Tour de France titles — and banned him for life from the sport that made him a hero to millions of cancer survivors after concluding he used banned substances.
USADA said it expected cycling's governing body to take similar action, but the International Cycling Union was measured in its response, saying it first wanted a full explanation on why Armstrong should relinquish titles he won from 1999 through 2005.
At least the ICU doesn't appear to be the same breed of hysterical witch hunters.
Curt
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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The lesson here? I'M A DOPE FOR NOT DOPING!
Hey, can anyone do LA a favor and introduce him to Greg Mortenson? Now that would make a dynamic duo. Think of the potential!
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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edit. Hey, where did that "Vaughters admitted" comment go?
still there.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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More then anything, I am concerned about the level of power that this agency has, or acts like it has. Regardless of my personal beliefs, the fact is that not one - not ONE - piece of evidence has been released to back their claims. I'm not from the show me state, but you're going to have to show me.
I have plenty of faith in modern science, so if you can show me he cheated, then I will accept it, realize that LA is a dirty doper....and then go on with my life not really giving a sh#t. But until then, I BELIEVE THAT A MAN IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
Yes, I enjoyed watching him beat the piss out of everyone year after year, but in the big scheme of things, who f*#king cares? A result either way isn't going to change your life or mine. It's just another "hot button issue" for people to fight over.
What bothers me is that the USADA is stripping people of titles without legal right to do so. the IOC has repeatedly told the USADA that they do not have the authority to strip any cyclists titles. However, this organization is so bloated with taxpayer dollars that it just stomps over and bullies anyone they can to get them to go along with their actions.
Basically, the USADA is stripping titles of a race that happens in another country. They charge people and then do not allow that charge to be contended in court. Once they make a decision, it's final, and you have NO right of recourse or appeal. Yes, they allow you to have "arbitration" - to them, that means "We are going to let you sit here while we tell you that you're screwed, and make more money off the taxpayers while you pay more to your lawyers. Then we will let you go home."
At the end of the day, they simply do not have the right to strip Lance's titles. That right resides with the IOC.
What Lance did here was a very smart move on his part. I'd be tired of it too, on the heels of a 2 year federal investigation that didn't find jack sh#t. The whole reason this went to the USADA was because of the fact that they cannot be overruled.
What he has done here, is forced the IOC to back up their claim that the USADA has no jurisdiction over the riders. The IOC has the resources and the power to negate the USADA's actions and restore Lance's titles. The IOC is guaranteed to demand that the positive tests and other evidence be turned over to them, prior to allowing the ban to be instated permanently. Let these two fight it out in the international courts, while Lance gets back to running the cancer organization that is his focus and raising his kids.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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...He has tested positive- his samples now test positive for EPO.
And they will test positive for all the other stuff also - he was infusing plasma and involved in some very complex masking tricks.
Source please..?
Thanks for the coherent comments from Vegasclimber.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
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If the USADA had any bloodwork which proved doping this would have been an open and shut case concluded years ago. Instead it's clear they have no bloodwork evidence of any kind and only have testimony that he doped. From my perspective it's basically irrelevant whether he did or didn't; what is relevant is that an anti-doping agency built on a science and regiem of relentless analytical bloodworkups is able to provide condemning bloodwork or they can't - but conclusive bloodwork is the only basis by which such an agency should be able to make accusations actionable, not hearsay.
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Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Prosecutorial overreach and abuse is the real threat here. Count USADA as just another over zealous agency among the out of control, alphabet soup myriad levels of government and bureaucracy that Americans are subjected to.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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This doesn't change anything. Everyone has their breaking point, he has finally reached his. It is important to note he has been fighting this battle for over 10 years. That has got to take a toll on you, especially when they have yet to provide physical evidence, and once again it comes down to testimony of people who literally have had it out for him for years by their own admission. His chances of getting a fair hearing went out the window a long time ago. In addition, USADAs clearly stalking / unhealthy obsession is a great example of an obvious personal vendetta that had nothing to do with the actual facts, but became a personal crusade by those who wanted to be Elliot Ness.
I am not saying he is clean or dirty, I am saying the guy is a champion of the like we can only wish to see again. What he has done for the sport of cycling and what he has done for cancer victims is so far beyond anyone else's contribution, that we all owe him thanks, not some bull$hit righteous condemnation.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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+100 for Vegasclimber's comment. I stand with you VC.
The idea that "everyone dopes" makes banning one person all the more ridiculous. If they ALL dope, then why ban one guy?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
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Okay, I've finally found the perfect summary of the whole business. It's from a piece by Michael Rosenberg in Sports Illustrated.
Even if you believe his accusers, as I do, you must admit: The accusers make you want to wash your hands. This was a case between a likely drug cheat and obsessive, unlikeable prosecutors, fueled by other drug cheats as witnesses. If this were divorce court and I were a judge, I'd give all the money to the dog.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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a legal question?
here are the charges the USADA is charging him with (from cyclingnews)
//The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong is being sanctioned are:
(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.
(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.
(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.
(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone.
(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations.
Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed//
Some of them are criminal offenses. Now the Federal Govt. couldn't press charges against him for lack of evidence. So does the USADA only have to a "preponderance of the evidence"? Or can they just rule how they wish with no legal recourse for the accused (beyond arbitration)? Is it similar to civil vs criminal case?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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As someone who has quite a bit of personal experience with prosecutorial overreach, and the personal cost of fighting it, this case saddens me greatly. Dougal Haston wrote in Mountain magazine about 40 years ago that whenever great men appear, there will always be little men to belittle them. This looks to me rather like that.
I wish Armstrong had continued the fight, even though the deck was stacked against him, but doing so wears a person down, and it is virtually impossible to fully recover a reputation after an accusation, even a false one. The USADA, like the NCAA, has virtually none of the fundamental checks on their power that we would consider "due process" under the Fifth Amendment. They have none of the limits of legal rules of evidence, and there is no presumption of innocence. Once they accuse someone, the accused must prove they didn't dope. How can anyone do that? The mere accusation, coupled with winning, will always create doubt.
While I accept the possibility that he was, in fact, doping in some way, shape or form, this matter still smells of jealousy and pettiness, not justice.
John
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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I think the charges are B.S. against LA whether he doped or not. It was 7 years ago and his victories should stand.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
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However, this organization is so bloated with taxpayer dollars that it just stomps over and bullies anyone they can to get them to go along with their actions.
Pretty typical of the government these days. No limit to the spending. Or a time limit. A weak President at the top.
I've seen Lances Pool Times, His run results, he's about the greatest athlete of our times. The self-righteous, seek to justify their miserable existence by trashing true greatness. They'll interpret his abandonment of his defense as an admission of guilt. F*#k all of them.
I can't wait to see him at Kona.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Aug 24, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Tom Head, Texas Judge: Obama Reelection Could Lead To 'Civil War and the Incarceration of Lance Armstrong,' I'm Ready To 'Take Up Arms'
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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Melki Cabrera is the maggot I am pissed at! Although the Giants are doing well now, the team would benefit from his presence.
Are they gonna take the All Star game away from NL now?
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
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Their big testimony is they "overheard" it? What a joke.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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I find it interesting that no one was upset when Contador was stripped of his TdF title from two years ago.
Is it because lance is an 'merican?
Were you guys upset when Ivan Basso was banned for two years? I'd say not.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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Thinks that's a joke Roughster?
Don't you have a variety of friends and their relatives around when you are talking to your doctor?
;)
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jstan
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Fools in these Panties-in-a-bunch agencies are only proving that they can find a case against whomever they point the light at, thus knocking down all the heroes and leaving them with no sport that anybody is going to want to watch, attend or buy swag about.
Good luck with that. Horse is out of the barn. Better to have "Don't ask, don't tell" where you win by keeping up with beatings tests and using stuff that's not illegal yet. Otherwise what can you do, give em lie detector tests once a year?
better to go rockclimbing and test drugs than go cycling and get drug tested
Peace
Karl
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF
disagree. TdF will always be popular in Europe
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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Looks like he told a private concern, with an axe to grind, and no legal jurisdiction or process to go piss off.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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find it interesting that no one was upset when Contador was stripped of his TdF title from two years ago.
Is it because lance is an 'merican?
Were you guys upset when Ivan Basso was banned for two years? I'd say not.
Was the USADA involved? Was there physical evidence?
Sure Americans care more about American cyclists than those from other countries. So what?
Armstrong is no longer contesting the USADA. Why should he, if he's no longer competing at the TDF level?. Nothing prevents the USADA from releasing enough of its evidence to convince the skeptics. While sanctimonious sportswriters will doubtless be orgasmic at the prospect of taking down another hero, the comments on this thread show that many of us don't accept the "he's guilty because we said so" explanation on its own.
I also find it interesting that some say that not all riders at the highest level are doing this. Prove it! That's what the USADA is making everyone they accuse do.
John
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Recently, I have been in email conversations with a Taco Stander about climbing, people and such. But not about Armstrong or Landis or anybody else in the cycling world. (I introduced a former Boy Scout companion, Greg Mount, to bicycle racing, and he was one of the first Americans to hit the European circuit).
I told this fellow Supertopian that I entered my first race (San Francisco Bay Area High School Circuit) in 1972, a Hill Climb in El Cerrito. I just wanted the ten bucks reward money to buy a lid (bag of grass to the uninitiated).
I literally came in inches behind numbers one, two and three, but I still got a Yellow Ribbon for fourth place (I think I still have it somewhere in a box). The other three ahead of me had all the biz, cleats, bicycle shorts etc. I had tennies and cut-off jeans. I was on my late brother's Pogligahi (which is still in the family), we also had a Masi and Bianchi, all Campy gear.
So our fellow Taco Stander jokes with me in an email that I was a pro on drugs. Hah hah, except I did not win the $10. I entered a couple of more races, but climbing was my first love. Football (soccer my second). I tried turning pro in Europe when I was 26, but a) "Americans don't play football", and b) 26!
Most footie pros start at 14 or so as apprentices in Europe. But I had the dream (semi-pro teams: Harrow Borough in England, San Francisco Celtic, trial with Galway United and reserves on the Golden Gate Gales, the old ASL American Soccer League, and of course, a bench warmer at Cal State Hayward/East Bay... I was 27 & 28, the other lads called me Uncle Pat, but I was still the third fastest and one of the best passers at Cal State).
I do not know if Lance Armstrong doped, and I do not really care. If he cheated other "would be" Tour winners, who probably cheated as well, even taking drugs so they would not have to stop and pee, that is his conscience he has to live with.
Maybe I should find that Yellow Ribbon from my first race and burn it, except, I was never high the few times I raced.
(Yeah, I climbed on acid, mushrooms and mescaline back in the day, not smart, but...).
If Armstrong cheated with various enhancers, he has to live with that, I still admire him for his cancer foundation.
Which poster said it earlier, "A mountain out of a molehill".
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.
Not I.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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So, who'd Armstrong cheat out of a legitimate drug-free TDF win?
Ulrich?
Pantani?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.
Particularly if the ICU agrees and strips Armstrong of his titles. That will basically invalidate the TDF and perhaps even the entire sport.
Curt
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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...many of us don't accept the "he's guilty because we said so" explanation on its own.
I also find it interesting that some say that not all riders at the highest level are doing this. Prove it! That's what the USADA is making everyone they accuse do.
That's the bugaboo for me. I, too, say 'prove it'. Confessed liars and cheats testifying doesn't do the trick for me. And even unabashed testimony from George Hincapie doesn't flip the switch. Let's see some real test results. Otherwise this is a travesty and certainly not worth the US tax dollars that funded this expedition to nowhere.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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Dope or no dope, I won't miss the tdf for anything!
So guys, you think any doping will go on during the upcoming Vuelta?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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People, regardless of whatever Armstrong used illicit substances, it is a huge blot on the sport, a sport that has become synonymous with drug taking, blood transfusion, and as I mentioned even drugs to stop your urinary tract from wanting to get off the bike, etc.
None of these people - the riders, teams, drug testers and what not - IMO, have not done themselves any proud. How to clean it up? When there is so much money, prestige and accolades at stake, the cheaters will find a way.
Sad, isn't it, and it is not only in cycling.
EDIT, for example, business. I know of one Irish billionaire, (that lied to me personally) that used a 'brown envelope' to gain his fortune. When there is money and fame to gain, a lot of people are unscrupulous. Sport, business, whatever, they are out there. Bad parental guidance? I don't know, I have enough on my plate, to really worry about these people (talk about them on a forum, yes, but really worry, no).
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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Curt, you are looking at it from an american perspective. as I said earlier, TdF will always be popular in Europe. Armstrong wasn't the most popular guy while racing on the continent.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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The fact that the TdF will still be popular in the US IMO is due to Lance.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Aug 24, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
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You guys don't get it!
This POS is no hero.
He cheated your son or your brother!
Do you want your child, who perhaps falls in love with the TDF, while sitting on your lap to have to stack 10 different drugs and dope his blood 5 different ways to be able to enjoy competition?
Who gives a f*#k if they have to go back all the way to a Po-dunk fun ride in shitsville America to find a Champion.
This can not be about who has the most money, who is willing to lie the most, and who is the best cheater? Can it?
What the hell are you guys teaching your kids?
No wonder this world is so f*#ked...
Well, there was plenty of doping in bike racing before Lance, and there has been at least some post-Lance. So it is not as if he is somehow solely responsible for the whole mess. And the pros I have talked to recently sdo think things are cleaner now than they were. I'd rather all the effort that is being put into this was instead put into continuing to improve the current situation rather then re-hashing this business.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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His old blood samples being restested today when the ability to discover substances in the blood is much higher
Armstrong accepting the ban
It's all out in the open now. You have to be blinded by ideology or ignorant lojality to not get the picture. He cheated. Many have been caught the last few years and it's necessary to catch the cheaters if you want to get a cleaner sport.
They better retest the sample of whomever they are retroactively awarding those TDF titles too until they find somebody beyond suspicion. Fair is fair.
Can you imagine authorities and media of all sorts could look back at the past with x-ray perfect vision. I guarantee every president we've ever had would be retroactively impeached
Peace
karl
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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The USADA bans Armstrong for life and strips him of his championship rides (which they don't have the authority to do).
Since this is a very bold and harsh punishment, shouldn't they publish all the evidence which they have accumulated? They were not shy about publishing their illegitimate punishment.
Also, when are we gonna see Willard Romney's income tax returns?
Does Armstrong have hidden assets in Swiss bank accounts? Has he been seen in the Caymans?
PTFU or STFU.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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Viva le Tour!
They got what they wanted. Lance caved and they use that as their evidence without having to put the rest out to public scutiny. As I said up front, doing all this after the fact is lame. They damn well better go back and test every American Cyclist now and strip everyone that fails a retroactive drug test or has someone rat them out for personal gain.
Oh that's right, they can't really strip non-US titles. The UCI does that. Doh!
I don't condone PED's, but this is being handled really poorly all the way around. Nobody is going to win when the dust settles.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
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Riley
This time I think Dr. F is just redefining "by fair means" to fit his own feelings.
Edit: LA should in this case be judged and banned for his rulebreaking actions and not for the man he is. I hope he has the support of some close friends. He needs them now.
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
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Thanks Fletcher, for posting this:
http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/08/endgame/
Though there's not much evidence of anyone here reading it. The point Padraig makes in the article that I found most pertinent is that if you take LA out of the standings for the seven TdF wins, of the remaining 21 riders in the top three places, only ONE is not a proven (not by hearsay) doper.
It's a mess that stripping LA of the wins does NOT solve or even begin to remedy. These idiotic ruling bodies should be moving forward.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Aug 24, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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Can you name the new 7 winners of the TDF? Who will care anyway. Do you think Andy Schleck wakes up every morning thinking "I won the 2011 TDF!" NOBODY will think that other than Andy's mom. Point is, you can't erase what LA has accomplished and I don't think the USADA can make him their new druggie poster boy. It won't stick. Maybe in France but not here.
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all in jim
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Most people want a hero who wins more races, hits more home runs, catches more touchdowns and wins more medals.
We buy the bikes, the hats and the baseballs (well maybe not you, specifically, but can you hear what I'm saying?) We watch the events. We are partly to blame for making our heros so big (literally and figuratively!)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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I would feel better about Armstrong if he would come clean. Arrogantly and vehemently calling it a witch hunt AFTER he decides not to contest is beyond the pale. Everyone deserves his day in court but by refusing to contest LA avoids his. He obviously is aware of the preponderance of the evidence against him- a de facto admission of guilt if there ever was one.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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It's all these so called scientist lab coats faults.
Those slide rule wankers made this sh!t!!!!
Throw em all in jail.
Heh heh heh ......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
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Dr F you are usually reasonable. Anyone who thinks an ego maniac like Armstrong who has financiial resources would not fight the charges IF he thought he had a chance of prevailing is not being reasonable.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
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^^^^ You should read the post directly above yours. Armstrong had absolutely no chance in a USADA arbitration.
Curt
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
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The federal court couldn't find enough evidence of conspiracy to charge him, but the USADA could. Pffft.
He did it, but they missed the window. This smacks of revenge and grandstanding now. They should have let go and focused on the future.
Professional sports sucks the soul out of everything it touchs.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
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I'd love to see the Chain of Custody forms for those samples the USADA is saying are "consistent with doping" (WTF ever that weasel words phrase is supposed to mean).
If I were a lawyer for LA, that would be where I would start. You could probably blow holes a mile wide in the COC by now, after 10 years of shipping those things around.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
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You could probably blow holes a mile wide in the COC by now
heh.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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Seems there's a lot of discomfort in America over this. It happened so long ago.
Americans will see the lynching of Lance, against the backdrop of the Batman Movie Killer in AZ. Such a complicated trial for this guy and he was caught at the scene.
Lance, in contrast, gets hanged out of hand, 13 years later.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
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what gets me about all of this is the hypocrisy of them going after lance and turning a blind eye to the prevalence of doping in all the major money sports in this country. there's probably not a player in the nfl who hasn't doped. biking hardly registers in this country. who's even following the veulta right now?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
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David Blanco Rodriguez won Stage 7 and leads the general classification ;-)
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Aug 24, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
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Someday, some way, when you do something that you believe is fair and honest and as a result, get excessively prosecuted in this country, you may feel you have something in common with Lance Armstrong.
Allegations are not facts. Claims of having evidence are not evidence.
A US agency's assertion of control over a French sporting event is an example of how excessive the prosecution of Lance Armstong has become.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
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Anyone who thinks an ego maniac like Armstrong who has financiial resources would not fight the charges IF he thought he had a chance of prevailing is not being reasonable.
I've defended people falsely accused by a government or an organization with resources far beyond my clients' means -- and several of those clients were multi-millionaires. In addition, I was in a court with rules of evidence, due process rights, and the burden of proof on the other side. They often got worn down by the process -- particularly if the penalty wasn't that great.
Dealing with the USADA is almost the exact opposite. An accused athlete has about as much chance as a defendant before the Queen of Hearts. Off with his head, then let's have the trial.
I perfectly understand why anyone would refuse to legitimize a proceeding that appears stacked against him. I understand it even more when, as here, Armstrong already proved what he could do on the road, and no one accuses him of doing something any of his main rivals were not doing.
The USA, with all of its resources (and, believe me, the Justice Department has lots of them) couldn't find enough evidence for an indictment, which speaks volumes. Instead of engaging Armstrong in an arena where he can fight back, his detractors choose one where the accused has virtually no rights.
If anything, I think the onus is on the USADA to come forward with its evidence (as opposed to its accusations) to satisfy a substantial portion of the public that sees this as a witch hunt. Riley may be right; LA may deserve the greatest of contempt. Our problem is that the USADA hasn't shown us satisfactory proof of that, and we aren't willing just to take their word for it.
Besides, it appears that I not only may have ksolem on my side (as is often the case), but Curt, El Cap, and Dr. F. as well. We must be right!
John
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
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+1 Yosemite 5.9...Hello extraterratorial jurisdiction...stuff kids learn to stamp out in the sandbox.
Having witnessed first-hand how out-of-control some folks become when given even the smallest amount of power, specifically in the context of a corporate arbitration in which the arbitrators acted directly against the terms of the contract the parties had signed, and further, in direct opposition of the very clear applicable state law, I wouldn't trust the "witch hunter" as far as I could toss him. Do you think he would keep his job if he DIDN'T do everything possible to close the deal (moral or immoral or just plain depraved)?
I'm curious...
...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?
...What is his compensation structure? Requirements to keep his job?
...Is his position an "appointed" one?
...What did he do before taking on this glorious assignment that has kept him in the public spotlight for...years?
I believe Lance Armstrong is a good man, not a perfect man. Not one of us is perfect. But Lance Armstrong has done more in his short 40 years than many others of us, and I have a soft spot for people who do good things for others (and have, shall we say, an uncommonly enormous amount of excess energy?). He didn't have to start a charitable organization...he chose to.
Lance Armstrong is a father at the end of the day. Perhaps this is his way of setting an example for his children...nothing is worth putting loved ones through Hell just to prove a point. If Lance can look at himself in the mirror at the end of the day, and feel good about who he is as a person, then that's really the only thing that matters. The rest is between him and the Universe...not the rest of us fellow (imperfect) human beings.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?
According to NPR's report on it today, over a dozen.
I'm not stating an opinion, just telling what I heard.
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
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Eyewitness testimony is very unreliable and easily falsified. Watch the movie "My Cousin Vinny" as an example.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Aug 24, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
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Wow this is bogus.
Having been involved with Motorsports for 20 years I see this like this...
At a race you have this thing called TECH ..... every car goes through it before the racing and the lucky few who win, place, show or get picked at random... you get your stuff torn apart. You get your car returned in bits and pieces.
This is because folks in sports cheat, all the time.
To hold fair races the governing body must have fair and open tech. All the good ones do this.
Its important to get the cheaters and get them out.
When we hold races it is important to do the tech and declair a winner ASAP.
The day of the race is best, but sometimes it gets delayed because you need to send a fuel sample out for testing at the NHRA or USAC lab. Or one time we sent a motor back to Austria for a teardown inspection.
This never takes more than 2 weeks at most.
I find it almost impossable to believe that it has taken them 13 years to test and retest samples.... I guess its one of those things that went like this.... "Look, go back and test those samples again.... dont come back till you get the right results"
Well I figure if they couldn't catch him on the days of the races .... and for seven more years, then the test they use is flawed.... they are weak in the testing they do and they didn't do a very professional job of testing. Pretty bogus.
So no matter what they say.... LA won 7 TDF, period, end of story.
So next year when they run the thing I wont care at all about who wins or loses because the folks who run the event don't know squat about how to controll their own event.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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JEleazarian
Thanks for your post, makes sense if that's the case.
I personally hope Lance doesn't lose his TDF titles.
That would suck tremendously and be an outrage in my opinion ......
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Franphsyco
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
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whatever, this is all bullsh#t
let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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Lance had two lieutenants(Tyler Hamilton, and Floyd Landis) admit to doping.
If Lance knew about it(and undoubtedly he did)why didn't he stop it? Seems that he would want to just to avoid association.
Note: I've followed pro racing for almost twenty five years, have done road bike teetees, and raced mountain bikes.
I was a Lance fan in the beginning, but he got too cocky, and arrogant.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
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The agency (USADA) also said it had blood tests from 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent" with blood doping."
I'm really curious about that. If that is the only actual blood test related evidence they have and Armstrong had over 500 to 600 "clean" test results during his TDF years, then attempting to yank his TDF titles based on that is complete BS.
Curt
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
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whatever, this is all bullsh#t
let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.
Sadly, not really. Famously, the East German Olympics team doped heavily during the 70s and 80s. Long term health effects on athletes were terrible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany
And here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3
It's ben a whack-a-mole game ever since. And yes, curiously enough, testiculat cancer is one of the health problems.....
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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what gets me about all of this is the hypocrisy of them going after lance and turning a blind eye to the prevalence of doping in all the major money sports in this country. there's probably not a player in the nfl who hasn't doped. biking hardly registers in this country. who's even following the veulta right now?
Amen! Why so much fuss over a mere cyclist . . . even with the exposure Lance has brought to the sport, it (cycling) remains insignificant in the U.S., save for a small percentage of individuals. The hypocrisy involved in this witch hunt is unbelievable . . . America worships the NFL and all the steroid enhanced players beating the sh#t out of one another. You know damn well those sanctioned users of performance enhancing drugs would never be subject to a crusade like the one to disgrace Mr. Armstrong.
America loves to hate . . . America is founded on deception.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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I'm guessing the OOSADA bureaucrats have much to gain financially and politically by crucifying Lance and busting his ball...I also think it is outrageous that they think it is within their juristriction to take his titles away besides being too long after the fact...This is another tax payer sponsored boondoggle...Who's next on the USADA hit list...? Lebron James...?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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What's chicken-sheeit in all this is that Armstrong played by the rules of the game and he won.
The testers had carte blanche to test at any time and all times and, as far as has been published, never failed him on a test in the hundreds of attempts to flunk him.
This is a vendetta, which originated in France and has been picked up by the Uswhatjamcallits.
Let's see the comparative statistics on who among all the bicycle peddlers was tested and how often.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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The root of all this is the money and fame of this competition. The same incentives that make business cheat and pollute and government invade countries that are no threat.
People that bike for fun don't do this, and people who climb for fun don't dope either (you know what I mean)
This is what cutthroat competition with a lot at stake does. How you gonna change that without creating a worse police state in the sport than already exists?
The way things are set up now, and the way our society rolls, this is what we get. Wanna go after LA? Go after em all~! Total witch hunt!
What then
peace
Karl
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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I don't know if this has been posted up-thread but this is the best thinking I've seen on the doping debacle:
Here's the pull quote:
"I don’t know if Armstrong did the things he’s accused of doing, and neither do you. I don’t know if these witnesses are telling the truth, and neither do you. I do know two things: First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.
It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t. "
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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^^^^ That's an excellent point.
Curt
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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The big gotcha he has on his head is:
Trafficking, Administration to others
He doesn't even have to be found guilty ever of using any dope on himself.
But Trafficking, and administration to others qualifies as guilty.
It's a total bummer this whole thing.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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Trafficking, Administration to others
It seems the judicial inquisition would have nailed him here if there was evidence.
Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there, or was it someone else?
Put every single rider (or at least the top ones) under the microscope as has been done with Armstrong.
Come back and publish the results.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 25, 2012 - 01:53am PT
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"They should simply go after the new winners the way they went after Lance until they accept bans....Peace."--Karl Baba
I tend to think this would make the severe stance of the "authority" seem less like a witch hunt.
It might take the blood sport out of it.
Lance has a lot going for him for the good; he will sail through this mess, and when the sound and the fury are slackened, and the apostrophes are added, what will it matter?
I'm certainly not claiming he was an angel; nor am I claiming he's undeserving of having his titles stripped, etc. At first glance, there are some similarities here to Pete Rose's punishment. But betting on baseball or other ball games by players is, I don't believe, as prevalent an infraction of rules as doping in cycling. There are other differences, surely, which I won't try to say anything about, because what does it matter?
It's sad. Unsullied heroes are hard to come by, it seems.
"Say it ain't so, Joe."
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 25, 2012 - 03:44am PT
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It's a good thing that old blood samples can be used and tested.
At one particular moment in time the dopers with highly qualified dope doctors are always ahead of the tests. But over time the tests catch up. This is the situation now. Even if you at present is on top of the dope ladder being able to get access to and pay the "best" dope doctors to give you substances that cannot at present be found because the tests are not yet developed, you are no longer sure, because there is a fair chance that in the future the tests will be available and the substances will be found in your old blood samples. The LA case is a good example. LA had access to the "best" dope doctors.
The dopers are now taking a chance - their cheating can be disclosed in the future even if they are ahead of the tests at present. This situation gives hope of a cleaner sport. I think only politicians in the pocket of corporations and other money-people (they have their hands deep into the structure of the sport) can block the chance of getting a cleaner sport.
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Some Random Guy
Trad climber
San Franphsyco
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Aug 25, 2012 - 04:10am PT
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Sadly, not really. Famously, the East German Olympics team doped heavily during the 70s and 80s. Long term health effects on athletes were terrible:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany
And here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3
It's ben a whack-a-mole game ever since. And yes, curiously enough, testiculat cancer is one of the health problems.....
just think how outta control it would be if there were no regulation.....ha ha maybe i'm kinda sadistic for wanting to see that
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 25, 2012 - 04:19am PT
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Gaming the system with cheats and lies or trying to stay technically legal while being illegal in spirit is the American way
We went to Iraq knowing they didn't have WMDs, Romney pays a small percentage of the taxes he owes by exploiting tax havens and loopholes, and if you're not enjoying drugs for fun then your expecting Jesus to get you off the hook for your sins by having suffered in your place.
This is more of the same. Get what you want by any advantage, legit or not, that you can finagle
Peace
Karl
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One Nut
Social climber
Col De Galibier
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:53am PT
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So Riley and Babba easy for you to sit back and bash away on a guy for passsing 500 doping tests.
Raised over 300 million for cancer research.
What the f*#k have you two done?
Stop bye the house we will have a few ultras I'll show you my testical in the jar and if you want we can go for a ride and talk about it.
Or you could go do something else other that post dribble of which you know nothing about really and volunteer a day at your local VA.
Peace
One Nut.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:59am PT
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Just because they took his crown away does not mean he is not still King. Hail Lance!!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:12am PT
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What if he payed off testers and used other folks' blood and urine for tests?
Possible.
Alot of drugs come into the country via the payoff route. Should have been possible to determine (probably still is) whether or not it was Armstrong's stuff.
I'll ask again, why doesn't the USADA publish everything they have?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:16am PT
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So Riley and Babba easy for you to sit back and bash away on a guy for passsing 500 doping tests.
I don't know what you're talking about Bro. Have you read my many posts on this thread?
I think they ought to leave the guy alone personally. Just commenting on the total picture of this sport and our society where winning is everything and anything goes if you can get away with it.
My guess, the LA did his best to do whatever he could to enhance his performance while being careful to stay on the side of not running afoul of testing. I think he was basically forced to do so as that's what everyone was doing and you couldn't compete at the very top without some form of illegal or not illegal yet enhancement.
So I don't blame him but rather cite it as the way to sport rolls...period
It's like how politicians have to raise millions to run for office with the Lion's share coming from elite money and corporations and then they claim they aren't influenced by needing and getting millions from those interests. Yeah, right. But then you see how they vote and the favors they do for those interests and you know the truth.
I applaud LAs good works and don't blame him for doing his best to win while not getting caught. What else to do? (even if you pay the price with your health but hey, maybe they are finding ways to Juice without killing yourself in the process. Time will tell)
Peace
Karl
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:22am PT
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For them to try to take away his lifetime wins is like saying Harding didn't get the 1st ascent of the Nose because he did not free it. Screw that. Keep on rocking Lance!!!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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Or conversely
he is a dope because he doped
implies alot of dopes in the world
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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Chief...... Your jealousy of Lance Armstrong and his awesome success is showing. Lance Armstrong has been one of the most consistently tested athletes in history, with over 500 negative results. The US antidumping agency has NO concrete evidence, just the testimony of Lance's former teams, who have admitted to doping, agreeing to testify in exchange for leniency from prosecution (ie. Floyd Landis). Innocent until proven guilty. Let's see the evidence! The maliciousness of your thread is disgusting. SHAME ON YOU! Lance Armstrong is the greatest athlete to ever mount a bicycle, and a cancer survivor. Get on your bicycle and do some training yourself. Keep riding and running marathons, Lance!
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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this OBAMA administration is going after certain people and Lance is one of em.
Nothing wrong with blood enhancement.
something wrong with a government going after their own superstars.
good job travis from Anti-doping cuzz u suck.
long live the super lance!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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Now that USADA has boinked Lance i think they should get on with their laundry list and go after Mercxk , Kelley , Lemond and the entire pro peloton....After all , money is no object to USADA especially when the US tax payers are picking up the tab..
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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if your following the Vuelta...
Convicted doper Valverde passed convicted doper Contador at the finish to win stage 8!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
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How does someone pass hundreds of drug tests, without failing any, if the tests are worth anything?
Why administer tests in the first place? Wouldn't it be more effective to just ask around, if you want to find out who's doing what?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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For them to try to take away his lifetime wins is like saying Harding didn't get the 1st ascent of the Nose because he did not free it. Screw that. Keep on rocking Lance!!!
Yeah, Harding was up to his neck in ETOH courage enchancing substances! The FA goes to Robbins who was probably clean
;-)
Can you imagine if they did this in the NFL like they just did with Penn State (Taking away wins)? You'd have retired players who suddenly found out they'd won the super bowl and suing their old bosses for bonuses and rings
Karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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What if they find out that the Lantern Rouge (sp?) ( he's the guy who's dead-last in the standings ) was doping and therefore disqualified?
Does this mean that the guy who finished second-to-last, and worked his ass off for three weeks to avoid a last place finish, is now given just that?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
good one Chaz
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 25, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
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I haven't read all of the above, but I've always suspected the guy. And once I saw the photo op of lance riding bikes with bush I knew he was evil. Ha
No one can ever know for sure but lances response - written by a ghost writer no doubt (very effective piece of writing I might add) - tries to point out that some people willing to testify have themselves been accused (and perhaps offered leniency for their testimony ) but obfuscating the fact that there is practically no one from his team that won't testify against him. Hell, even his girl friend is willing to testify.
Meanwhile, the point of all this is to allow honest and clean riders to compete. Its not possible if dopers are given a pass. I'm not sure if technologically it can ever be stopped - but its worth the effort IMHO.
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Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
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Aug 25, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
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Agree with rottenjohnny - and after USADA is finished with Eddie Mercxk and Greg Lemond, maybe they can go after the Steeler offensive line from the 1970's. Rumor has it that Mike Webster, Jon Kolb and some of the boys liked to dabble in anabolics. And rumor is all that USADA seems to need. They can head down to Heinz Field and confiscate those Lombardi trophies and then they can get Chuck Noll kicked out of the hall of fame. And then maybe they can try to clean up baseball's "greenies" era and strip Cincinnati's Big Red Machine and other teams of their world series titles.
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D.Eubanks
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
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Seems like all of the USADA need to find something to justify their jobs... losers.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 25, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
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This is why actual crimes have statutes of limitation attached to them. ( except for murder and maybe child molestation ) It's to keep prosecuting bodies from holding un-proven accusations against someone for several years without ever having to make their case..
At some point - long ago, in my opinion - the sh#t-or-get-off-the-pot principle applied here.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 25, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
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Did anyone bother to read the Federal judge's ruling?
he basically said that while there was no Federal jurisdiction, Armstrong was facing a kangaroo court with no chance for due process.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 25, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
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There is no such thing as clean pro rider so why even bother....
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
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They never bathe?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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^Why would they do that? Also, is drinking one's own bath water considered good, bad, ugly, a form of doping, an enlightening experience ...
Now I know there are cultures in the world wherein one's own urine is consumed and as I recall, it is a means of getting high and they are not known to participate in bicycling.
Lastly,
Isn't the USADA the same group that approves all the tainted meat for sale up in the central valley? I'd like to see the drug profile and some o' them cows.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
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hehe, USDA = US Department of Agriculture, although they might as well be the dairy association considering how much subsidies dairy gets.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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USADA, USDA (type I and type II) and throw in the ADA (Americans for Democratic Action) and FPCC*
I'd advocate combining all these; agriculture, diary, anti-doping, political provacateurs into a super agency and put them in charge of patents and telecommunications.
Someone has got to bring Apple under control.
I do wonder who broke into Steve Jobs house recently. I hope it wasnt' Daniel Ellsburg or that guy who debated Tim Leary.
*for the un- or mis- informed - Fair Play for Cuba Committee
Among its twenty-nine early notable supporters were William Appleman Williams, Norman Mailer, Truman Capote, James Baldwin, Jean-Paul Sartre, Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti, as well as Latin Americans Waldo Frank and Carleton Beals
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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Well ......
According to the conclusion drawn from this thread and it's inhabitants.
Lance Armstrong needs to bathe .... !!!!!!!
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beef supreme
climber
the west
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Aug 25, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
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regardless of what side of the issue you're on- gotta admit- sure is a whole lotta bullsh!t about seeing who can ride a bike the fastest. pretty simple idea- gone to hell.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
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^^Wade in the Water children.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 25, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Armstrong refused arbitration, nothing else.
USADA can prevent him from competing professionally on U.S. turf.
Only the UCI can nullify his tour victories.
Only the UCI can nullify his tour victories. It won’t because it would lead to the nullification of all race results in which competitors could be suspected based on testimony of others, not to mention riders who actually tested positive at some time during their careers. That would include Merckx, Riis, Ullrich, Zabel, David Millar, Valverde and Pereiro, who ended up in first place at the tour after Floyd Landis’ positive test in 2006. The list is long and the motivation of those who have an ax to grind against someone is potentially endless. It would set a precedent for unsubstantiated accusations to change legitimate race results on a grand scale.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 26, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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From cyclingnews...
(if everyone knew he was being informed, why are we just hearing about it now. Also, are there some Sky accusations in the paragraph I highlighted?)
American said to have been given time “to cover his tracks”
Lance Armstrong was “warned before all planned doping controls,” an adviser to the French anti-doping agency AFLD has said. Michel Rieu, scientific adviser to AFLD, said this was only one of the methods the American used to escape detection of his doping.
"The inspectors encountered many difficulties in making unannounced checks. Armstrong was always informed in advance, so he still had twenty minutes to cover his tracks. He could thin his blood or replace his urine. He used the EPO only in small quantities, so it was no longer there to detect. We were powerless against this way of working,” Rieu told the Le Monde newspaper.
He also claimed that Armstrong used a large network to help him with his doping, and his avoidance of positive doping controls. "Armstrong let himself be surrounded by many physiologists. Also in the logistics field, everything was possible. The rumor was that his private jet was flying blood in from the United States.”
Armstrong was on Friday given a lifetime ban by the USADA, with all his results since August 1998, disqualified, including his seven Tour de France victories. He had chosen not to challenge doping charges which the American agency had brought against him.
French attorney Thibault de Montbrial, who defended the paper in a suit filed by Armstrong against LA Confidential authors David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, thinks the cumulative pressure of authors such as these and the SCA Promotions lawsuit that followed contributed to the downfall of Armstrong.
He also believes riders are still showing suspicious signs.
"Work together with Antoine Vayer [LeMond columnist], the performance specialist, helped show the implausibility of the power generated in watts on the climbs. Moreover, it is interesting to note that the UCI has banned the publication of such real-time statistics in 2012. And we can understand why when you see that the power production by [Bradley] Wiggins and [Chris] Froome (first and second of the Tour) is comparable to the turbulent times of the late 1990s and early 2000s."Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 26, 2012 - 02:00am PT
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Trafficking, Administration to others
It seems the judicial inquisition would have nailed him here if there was evidence.
Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there,
(-: quite the ironic misspelling on that one !
Reading a Wikipedia article on the TdF, one gets the idea that *doping* has been
a long-standing practice, from amphetamines & painkillers to modern stuff.
Reading Wiki's blurb on Greg Lemond, one gets the idea that Greg greatly
objected to this doping. And for lamenting Lance's early association with
Dr.Ferrari (who wasn't known as Better Housekeeping's Top Doc, but for less
noble ventures), Greg was threatened by Lance into apology and so on. And
that's rather early in LA's career. One might wonder : why didn't Lance just
talk to Greg and explain the innocent nature of Dr.F's association and all?
--unless it wasn't, and so on . ... all speculative, but some things fit,
and some don't (such as Landis's response to Lemond's urging "come clean"
of "what good would that do?" --not what an innocent person would say!).
There seems to be some considerable *smoke* (even if not showing the
*flame* of proof) of Lance running roughshod over those who got in his
way; I'm not all so forgiving of that even if part of his way was towards
helping others w/a foundation.
.
.
.
And wheels yet churn in this battle of USADA & UCI & ... , so we can await
what becomes in the next round.
As for excitement of TdF? Geeesh, why NOT being MORExciting with tough,
enforced, FOLLOWED prohibitions against doping? How exciting is it to see
Day-N of the favored rider taking his XX-minute lead with assurance over
hill & dale and with projected slight gains, maybe loss, from some upcoming
ITT ? Damn UNexciting; maybe it's okay if you're a fanboy of whoever the
maillot jaune is, but otherwise, no --and it's not the excitement of a race,
just the eagerness of confirming a crown. Who needs that?
Of course, in the USA, if the TdF lacks a USA leader/contender,
or lots of wrecks & injuries (blood!),
or controversy (doping),
there's no press value to it. Just pop up another pic of Anna Kournikova[?] (who
never won anything), and report the latest speeding/parking/bad-hair-or-dress
violations of a local-team benchwarmer. THAT's the 4th Estate!
*kN*
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2012 - 02:41am PT
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I don't like cheaters. In any sport.
And I don't like habitual liars. In life.
If there ends up proof that he cheated. Its a big deal, and it should be. And if he's any kind of a real man, he'll admit to cheating and deal with the consequences. If not, not only is he a cheater, but a liar.
But a man should be innocent until proven guilty. Not sure exactly where this puts Lance, though his riding was some of the best that's ever been done. Shame on him if he's a cheater, or a liar, or both. We may never know the full truth, but I'd like to take a man at his word. Sad its hard to do these days in sports, politics, etc....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Aug 26, 2012 - 05:04am PT
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You guys think what the USADA did to Lance Armstrong was terrible? Consider what they did to Neil Armstrong.
Revoking his title as "First Man on the Moon" just because he's not alive to prove he wasn't doping?
Shameful.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 26, 2012 - 11:04am PT
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peddling
Good to see that someone got it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 26, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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Dang, someone forgot to push my give-a-shit button this morning.
F Lance.....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 26, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 26, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!
Very fortunately, that's not up to the USADA. When they attempt to "strip" LA of his TDF wins without the authority to do so, their arrogance offends me.
Curt
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 26, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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If this stands.....
The UCI needs to retest everyone that might get the "titles", whether they have ever tested positive or not. They need to question all their team mates to see if they witnessed anything.
The USADA has to retest all US rider's samples that ever won anything and question all their team mates.
Only fair.
But they won't. They wanted to shoot a famous villager to send a message. They want the publicity to justify their jobs and all the money they are paid.
This retroactive approach is a slippery slope.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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Aug 26, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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I've followed much but not all of this thread. I've not seen much about the issues with UCI in terms of enabling doping. Padraig addresses this in this post which I think covers the complexity of this situation pretty well:
Endgame
The UCI is in need of reform as well.
Also, here is some breaking news from the Onion (not really!)... :-)
Lance Armstrong Lets Down Single Person Who Still Believed Him
Eric
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 26, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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Never had any respect for forced contract signings with monopolies.
Oh sure you don't have to sign this contract but if you don't you can't ride.
Oh sure you don't have to sign the contract but if you dont you can't have electricity.
whatever.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Not so fast, in the race to condemn.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column
Anti-doping authorities don't play fair against athletes
It's a system deliberately designed to place almost insurmountable hurdles in the way of athletes defending themselves or appealing adverse findings. Evidence has emerged over the years that laboratories certified by the World Anti-Doping Agency, or WADA, have been incompetent at analyzing athletes' samples or fabricated results when they didn't get the numbers they were hoping to see.
We're talking about three, four, five years of litigation
Before we go further, let's address the question most people think is the nub of the matter. Is Lance Armstrong a doper?
Here's the answer: I don't know. You don't know either. More to the point, Travis Tygart, head of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, doesn't know. That hasn't kept USADA from declaring Armstrong to be guilty of charges it has not proved in public, or to attempt to strip him of his seven Tour de France titles. (It's not yet clear that USADA has the latter authority.)
In part that's because under the rules written by the anti-doping system, athletes' cases are heard not in a court of law but in arbitration.
Arbitration is a system that more Americans are becoming familiar with, to their misfortune and distaste. It's where banks, brokerages, cellphone companies and other powerful business institutions force their customers to litigate grievances, for the simple reason that arbitration systems favor those who use them the most — banks, brokerages, cellphone companies, etc.
The real secret of why anti-doping agencies have been able to hound athletes out of their sports with impunity is that in this system they're not only the prosecutors but also the judges and juries. They write the arbitration rules, including those governing what evidence is relevant and under what circumstances it can be questioned.
Defending oneself in this system is horrifically expensive. The hiring of lawyers and scientific experts, the cost of visiting labs in foreign lands and attending hearings all over the country can drive a routine defense to six figures.
How many amateur athletes have the resources to do that? So most defendants give in and accept a suspension for a year or more. But countless innocent athletes, or competitors whose violations are clearly the result of an accident or blameless error, carry the stigma of cheater because they couldn't afford a defense.
"You're up against a prosecutor who drafts the rules, and goes back and changes the rules when they go against him," says Michael Straubel, director of the sports law clinic at Valparaiso University Law School and a defense attorney who handed USADA one of its rare defeats in an arbitration case.
For example, World Anti-Doping Agency rules provide for an eight-year statute of limitations, meaning that anti-doping agencies aren't supposed to use test results older than that to bring charges against an athlete. But Armstrong has pointed out that USADA was basing its case against him on test results as much as 14 years old. Presto: WADA is proposing to update its statute of limitations to 14 years — and it's proposing that the update be retroactive.
Federal Judge Sam Sparks of Austin, Texas, who was asked by Armstrong to block USADA's case against him, found lots not to like about the agency's pursuit of the cyclist. He called USADA's charging document, a letter that listed Armstrong's purported doping violations, "so vague and unhelpful it would not pass muster in any court in the United States." The deficiency, he said, "is of serious constitutional concern."
And now a personal story.
It seems like one would want, like Lance, to fight for vindication of one's name, no matter what.
I was sued in a malpractice case 30 years ago, in which I was the treating ER physician in a small town ER. The fellow fell off a horse and hit his head. I established he'd fractured his skull and had brain damage, and transferred him to the closest major center, as we did not have resources/specialists to treat him there. My care was perfect. He did not do well, and everyone was sued. Three years dragged on, and one by one, parties settled out. Then I was served with ANOTHER suit from MY malpractice insurance carrier, to be let out of defending me. Turns out that the contract holder had not paid the premium on the insurance. Long story short, I would have had to pay any costs of going to trial.
The Plaintiffs made an offer to let me out for $10,000, which would require me to report this settlement for the rest of my career. My attorneys told me that defending the case would cost me, out of my pocket, a minimum of $90,000 IF I WON. If I lost, or were found to have contributed to the damage in any way, THERE WAS NO LIMIT ON WHAT IT COULD COST ME.
I settled the case for $10,000, and I have had to give explanations to every employer, on every university application, and every hospital application, and every renewal for my entire career.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Ken....Sounds like extortion-fraud on behalf of your insurance company....? Good article from the LA Times...The punch line , if Armstrong has his titles taken away , is that everyone knows he was the winner on a level playing field of dopers....Lance passed all the drug tests and is now being tested via heresay 7 years after the fact...I think it is called double jeopardy...?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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I'm having a hard time trying to see any relevance of Ken M's case for the case of LA. Ken M's case does not seem fair. In the LA case there are 10 persons who are ready to tell the story about what really happened. The witnesses are comparable to doctors who dare not publically speak out against the dark side of a dysfunctional health care system, but who have finally decided to tell the story.
I wonder if corporate and media tricksters are trying to scare the witnesses off?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Telling the story will not make them heros in any possible way. But they will contribute to open up the possibility of a cleaner sport.
Jebus: What is interesting with a yellow wrist band in the LA case?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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I have questions about where these 10 credible witnesses were when the Dept. of Justice investigated this matter for two years. Clearly, team physicians, coaches, teammates, etc., would have been the first place they started. Also, how credible are those witnesses if the drug tests nevertheless turned up negative?
If the DOJ was unable to piece together a credible case in that amount of time, the puny little USADA probably has little more than it's dick in its hand. No wonder Armstrong refused to arbitrate. They probably would have insisted on binding arbitration and the right to select the arbitrators. You'd have to be an idiot to agree to participate on those terms.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Regardless of any past wrongdoing by Hiltzik this article is reasoned and
balanced. As for the LA case being cut and dried that is purely mental
speculation that ignores existing facts and, more importantly, many facts
the public is not privy to.
I have a good friend who is a world famous bio-chemist and the VP in charge
of R&D for a worldwide drug company. He says those anti-doping labs are a joke and
he wouldn't have his dog's pee tested there.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Reilly
Is your friend treating his dog in such a way that his dog needs to be tested? Or are you just being polemical? And if your friend is treating his dog in such a way that it needs to be tested - is your friend then a person to be trusted?
Is this a typical American discussion with yellow wrist bands and dog pee carrying the same data and reasoning weight as the words of witnesses and the results of laboratory tests? Is this the heaven of American subjectivity or is it just spinning?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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LA isn't even challenging the merits of the case anymore - it is all procedural. Where on earth did you form that belief? From his unwillingness to participate in arbitration? He's repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. Whether you choose to believe him or not, that's challenging the merits of the case. He's just not stupid enough to step into a one-sided forum to formally deny those charges.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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Fat Dad
I am able to understand that the burden of evidence was at last to heavy for LA to carry.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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Chief,
That letter is contradictory and, in my opinion, a cop out. First, the letter is from the UCI retracting it's own prior public announcement, in effect, we didn't mean it that time; now we do. Second, the comment in the letter:
fact known to us at this stage, there seems to be no question that theADO which discoveredthe violations is USADA. Therefore, USADA’s results management procedure (i.e ., the “USADA Protocol”) is controlling. What facts? If the guy doped, the UCI would have the results. What facts were "discovered" to contradict those results?
There is a fundamental conundrum that both the UCI and USADA are establishing. One, they've relied on their own testing in the past as evidence of doping. Two, they're now saying that if you have "evidence" which contradicts our own test results, which we've always assumed to be accurate and inviolate, that the test results don't mean anything in the face of that other evidence. How can that be?
I believe what this posturing shows proves the premise of the Hzitlick (sp?) article: that the anti-doping agencies just make up this sh#t as they go along.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
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I find it telling that very few cyclists (pro) have anything to say (unless they have been caught). My suspician is because they all know that many of them enhanced in the past and probably many still do some things that are less risky. The recent story in the NYTimes by Vaughters shows that the regulators let the cyclists enhance (didn't really care) so they all did it to keep up. Now to come back and pretend that the organizers don't play a major role in why this happened is foolish. all the insiders know that everyone that was good in the old days was doping and as said earlier whoever gets named the winner of the races that LA won is very likely to be a doper also. So just put and asterisk by every winners name and say they are probably dopers because that is the way it is.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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Chief....There's a lot going on behind the scenes...Pray tell ? One who hangs out with the bolsheviks....RJ
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Lance got assf*#ked in a sport full of dopers. What else is new? Got to have that strawman to burn in the end
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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During the 2002 Winter olympics , Frank Shorter was head of the doping cops...Apparently the cops tell the athletes what they are going to test for...Well shorter fibbed when he told them what they were testing for and some russian women got caught red-handed when they believed shorter...They had to turn in their medals...And Chief hangs out with Russians...?
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
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Riley Wyna has turned out to be such a complete whine-a. Thought you were cooler than this.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
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The Chief...The Iranian commy jew boys didn't last very long...? What the fuk did you do to em...? RJain...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 27, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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If the goal is to "clean-up" the "sport", then why are so many admitted dopers granted immunity so that one guy gets nailed. This is no house cleaning, it's a sham.
Are they claiming that Mr. Armstrong single-handedly introduced, supported, encouraged, advocated, ... the use of doping products and techniques?
V E N D E T T A !!
The best solution would be to ban competitive bicycling totally for 10 years. They're all guilty. Maybe the riders could get a job pinch-running in baseball.
Don't look back, they might be gaining on you
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Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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I was waiting for Pound Dick to weigh in. It's not that I disagree with these guys - I just think their priorities are screwed up. The retroactivity of the process bothers me too. What if we had samples from every athlete in every sport from every year? How would we deal with the findings?
The rule for every sport should be as follows: In each season (or event), you have a battery of tests, technology and testing protocols that you inform the athletes of. During that season (or event) they are subject to the various tests. If they pass the tests, it is declared that they passed - period. It would not be stated that an athlete was clean - just that he or she had passed the requisite tests in place at that time. There wouldn't be rules that specified what you can and can't take - the only rule would be not to fail the tests in place at that time. There would be no saving samples for re-testing years and decades down the road with new technologies, no further investigations or testimony from witnesses as to who was actually doing what. If you fail a test, shame on you. You are disqualified and must suffer the consequences. If you pass, congratulations. You have played by the rules and "honored" the requirement of not failing - either because you are truly clean or due to your superior technology and masking techniques. Cleanliness or cleverness - either way we don't give a shtt as long as you pass the tests.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 27, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
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Well Locker, we all knew that you were clean (you'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with pepsodent), but have you ever stolen a base? Base-jumped, free-based?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Aug 28, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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this is the most f*#ked up thread on st. its like a bunch of bikers on a biker thread bitchin about rap placed bolts. f*#kin ignorance but what do you expect from someone with little man complex like the sh#t.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 12:22am PT
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Face it guys. The TDF is for wussies.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:23am PT
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Locker..Glad to see you made it to the pros...Did they test you for blood packing...?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 28, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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Concerning Ellis, did they also test to make sure that he hadn't taken a steriod masker that gives a false positive for LSD?
Satchel Paige never used drugs. Give him the no-hitter and Armstrong's seven titles, I say.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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It's unfortunate and embarrassing how this is happening so long after all his wins but I think it's only now becoming apparent the scale and cynicism that, according to these allegations, went into Armstrong's doping efforts. To take away his wins makes a horrible mess in the cycling world but to do nothing, knowing what they know now, would look worse.
Great article, Chief. Thanks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all
Disclaimer: I really don't give a damn, except that by cleaning up other sports, there's maybe a better chance that our own will stay more or less the anarchic, fun, not-so-overtly-competitive sport that we all know.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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If the only way to keep a game clean is rigorous anti-doping testing then the 'sport' has already failed by every measure that counts.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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Disclaimer: I really don't give a damn, except that by cleaning up other sports, there's maybe a better chance that our own will stay more or less the anarchic, fun, not-so-overtly-competitive sport that we all know.
Can I take it you are therefore opposed to recognition of climbing as an Olympic sport?
Do you think your opposition will prove successful?
I fear the things you enjoyed are headed for the dustbin.
Happens.
The Olympic ideal of amateur sport, coming from its Greek origins where any citizen might compete, has been in the dustbin for quite some time. Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.
Time to move on.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 28, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.
Hmmmm. Yes, and no. The fact that professional and Olympic cycling are completely riddled with drugs, scandal, rules, bribery, conspiracy, and whatever else, does nothing whatsoever to prevent me from getting on my bike and doing the things I always loved to do on my bike.
And the fact that climbing might one day become what cycling is now won't prevent you, me, or anyone else from hiking up to the crag and doing what we've always done.
And since climbing is so mind-meltingly boring to watch, I don't see how it's ever going to become a big-time sport.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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The Olympic ideal of amateur sport, coming from its Greek origins where any citizen might compete, has been in the dustbin for quite some time. Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.
Sad, but true - an inevitable outcome of climbing gyms.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Aug 28, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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Lovegasolene
+150
one of the best ever on the Taco.
Almost same thing happened to me.....
I was head of French frys at Burger Chief...
Big day off..... do a dose, then the boss calls.
"Timmy called in sick, I need you down here fast"
I was able to make Golden Brown Fries at breakneck pace.
I wonder if they want my paycheck back??
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
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And since climbing is so mind-meltingly boring to watch, I don't see how it's ever going to become a big-time sport.
You are an optimist David.
The importers of african lions to Rome looked at their audience and figured out how to make money off those lions.
OK. You take it from there concerning climbing as an audience thing.
My optimism this election year has grown paper thin.
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thetennisguy
Mountain climber
Yuba City, CA
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
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His main accuser ... doper Floyd Landis ... need I say more?
He passed every doping test they game him.
Do the French really want an American to win their race 7 x's ? They were all over him for years and couldn't pin anything on him after testing him so many times in each race!
Do we really trust the USADA like we would a court in this country? Armstrong is being tried by the USADA in the court of public opinion ...
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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So I guess Hincapie has only ridden for 2 TDF winners?
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 28, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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Marion Jones passed one hundred and sixty doping tests. she failed the next one, and admitted she was guilty.
as far as climbing in the olympics, it will just be another contrived event.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
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Aug 28, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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every big man lance beat on his way to 7,ulrich,pantini,vinakorov,even contador were busted,lance and his doctors just knew how to do it.you can believe that.i am a lifelong cyclist .
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Aug 28, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
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god I love that lsd video! I watched it twice.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 28, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
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"Running should be a pastime," ... "All sports should be a pastime. There shouldn't be all this professional stuff.
Ed Whitlock, holder of almost all age group running records.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 29, 2012 - 10:37am PT
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Tyler Hamilton book now set for Sept. 5 release
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Tyler Hamilton's tell-all book about Lance Armstrong and doping in cycling will be released two weeks earlier than originally planned.
"The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs," is now scheduled for release Sept. 5.
Ballantine Bantam Dell touts the book as the "first deeply detailed window into one of the defining sports stories of our time."
Armstrong said last week he would not pursue arbitration in a case brought by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, which stripped his record seven Tour de France titles.
Included in the case was Hamilton's interview with "60 Minutes" claiming he had personal knowledge of Armstrong doping.
Armstrong has steadfastly denied doping but said he was tired of fighting USADA.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Tyler-Hamilton-book-now-set-for-Sept-5-release-3822871.php#ixzz24wiXWJii
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Aug 29, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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I'm looking forward to Tyler's book.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 30, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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I had never seen that LSD video, genius.
That would be great if they could eliminate doping, btw!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 31, 2012 - 12:25am PT
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I didn't sell it to him, but I think Doc Ellis took DMT that day, not LSD.
Several speculative and yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT is produced in the human brain and is involved in certain psychological and neurological states.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Aug 31, 2012 - 01:06am PT
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A NEW TWIST
USADA responds to Liggett's claims of bribery in Armstrong case
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-responds-to-liggetts-claims-of-bribery-in-armstrong-case
Ashenden calls commenator's claims 'ignorant'
USADA has issued a stinging response following veteran cycling commentator Phil Liggett's interview where the 69-year-old suggested that witnesses had been paid for giving evidence against Lance Armstrong in the agency's investigation into doping and conspiracy.
Speaking with South Africa's Ballz Radio on August 27, Liggett questioned the merits of USADA's case.
"Why is USADA doing this?" he repeatedly posed. "It's politically motivated. They have a reason for doing this and it's not what they say - it's not to clean up the sport of cycling. There is another reason behind this which they are clearly not saying."
Last week, Armstrong announced that he would not fight USADA's charges of doping and conspiracy which resulted in the agency stripping him of all results, including his seven Tour de France titles, obtained on and subsequent to August 1, 1998 and then issuing a lifetime ban.
Liggett continued: "I could get 10 people together and say, ‘I don't like you. And you take drugs.' But I have no proof. So the fact remains there is no evidence." According to the commentator, who has business interests with Armstrong, USADA is "a nefarious local drugs agency" before going on to claim that it was corrupt.
"Now I can tell you one thing," Liggett said. "And I could prove it in SA [South Africa] but I ... I met a chap who worked with Armstrong on Saturday in Boulder Colorado. And he told me that he had a visit, two years ago, to tell, and the question was, they were agents from a particular agency and they said: ‘Will you tell us that Lance Armstrong took EPO? And we could assure that you will never want for money again'. That was his quote on Thursday and he told them in words I can't put on radio what to do with that and they said "I think we're talking to the wrong man" and they walked away.
"I believe that these 10 witnesses who have all admitted apparently to seeing Lance take drugs, or selling drugs or passing them on and they themselves taking drugs - the reason they're witnesses is they've either been paid or they've been given a deal that they'll never be touched as far as suspensions go."
In response to the claims, USADA issued the following:
"It is blatantly false information from someone who has never had the courtesy to contact USADA for truthful and accurate information," said USADA media relations manager, Annie Skinner.
Meantime, former independent UCI biological passport panel member Dr. Michael Ashenden has written an open letter to Liggett calling his claims ‘ignorant'.
Published on nyvelocity.com, Ashenden says:
"But to answer your question, USADA is not doing this just because of Lance Armstrong. Instead, its about a conspiracy. You can find that word often in USADA's charging letter. A conspiracy that has infested cycling for over a decade. A conspiracy whose filthy tentacles still strangle sport today. A conspiracy that needs to be excised like a cancerous growth."
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 31, 2012 - 03:19am PT
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The Chief,
Just curious, why do you impugn Lance but not the rest of professional cycling?
All those other guys testifying were complicit to say the least and totally willing to take performance enhancing drugs. No one forced them and they could have easily bowed out of competing.
Or perhaps bowing out or refusing to cheat is easier said than done and all cyclists get caught up in the system, cede to the pressures and compromise their values since, as this is their livelihood, they see no other way out (as perhaps many of us do in our careers, daily lives, etc.).
You have to admit that the viewing audience is a bit schizophrenic with regard to cycling: condemning drug use while at the same time demanding that the athletes ride faster and go beyond what is humanly possible (with out doping). The sponsors are complicit, too. Both implicitly condones this behavior while hiding behind the fact that drug testing exists, then act outraged when one gets caught.
I don't know which I find more disgusting, the rampant doping in cycling, or the fact that cyclists, once one of "their own" is caught, throw the guilty so easily under the bus.
Humans are not perfect, and that includes Lance Armstrong. He may be a dick in person (can't say, never met him), and he probably took performance enhancing substances during his career (as every other TdF competitor did), but perhaps his great work for cancer makes up for or is some form of repentance for his "sins" as a rider.
Honest question, what has Hamilton done for cancer lately? Lemond?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 31, 2012 - 10:15am PT
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RIP Art Heyman (ave: 25.1 points, 10.9 rebounds) for Duke and led them to first Final Four in 1963.
Rode on others' shoulders, but didn't dope.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 31, 2012 - 10:21am PT
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Well (The) Chief. I guess you're right. Mr. Amrstrong should be lynched.
Along with all the other dopers in bicycling. Isn't Contador an admitted doper? Associates of LeMond say he did (oops he's already been shot).
Should Tyler Hamilton, an admitted doper, make money off tattling on Armstrong. Where's his non-disclosure?
Like I said, ban bicycle racing for ten years.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Chief, the thing about your diatribe that bothers, is that LA has NOT been convicted of anything, anywhere.
Here in America, there has always been a standard of innocent until proven guilty.
but you throw that out.
LA may be guilty, he may even be LIKELY to be guilty, but one can state with CERTAINTY that YOU DON"T KNOW.
He has just emerged from a legal process that involved the US Gov't, with substantial legal powers, clean....that involved the SAME PEOPLE that are running the current process.
The couldn't convict him, or even indict him, under the rules.
So what do they do, change the rules. And make it clear that they will keep changing the rules until 80 year old Lance Armstrong, dead for 10 years, is convicted.
On the face of it, it appears agenda driven, not objective.
"We're gonna get that guy"
And as you learned in the navy, if a Chief wants to get a guy, he will.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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Chief, dude, back off, your lifer tude is showing thru. You're a tool thru and thru
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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The Chief,
If you prefer to be a f*#king dick and not actually read someone's post then at least have the courtesy to write that you're just looking rant and don't give a sh#t about the opinions or thoughts of others. That way we'll steer clear and not respond in any way shape or form.
Admit it, you didn't read a word of my post and just decided to lash out and be a total cöcksucker since I don't demonize and vilify Lance to the same hyperbolic extent that you do.
Are you so frustrated about being old that you need to take it out on others in the way that you do?
I sure hope that when my days are numbered and have one foot in the grave as you do that I don't act like a bitter f*#king c*#ks@cker during a simple exchange about something as insignificant in the grand scheme of things as professional cycling.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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I guess the old term "LA turnaround" has taken on new meaning.
I would like to see a gradation of doping artifacts:
For example:
EPO alone
EPO supplemented with blood transfusion
EPO with blood and an LA turnaround
EPO with blood and LA turnarmound and anabolic steriod
you got it ...
With complete divulging of the various enhancers there could be tiered competitions.
I don't know who gets paid the most, the volume users or the skinflints.
And just like Willard Romney, this would all be done on the "honor" system.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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As much as The Chief likes to spew about truth and honesty, "truth" is the last thing he is interested in. He is only interested in seeing Lance Armstrong get screwed out of his TDF titles.
As if it weren't clear enough before, this clearly demonstrates The Chief's extreme bias:
Old Bernie Madoff contributed large amounts (100's of 1000's) of his scammed funds to several local and international children's and homeless charities. Does that negate his over all behavior?
Only a truly warped individual would compare Lance Armstrong with Bernie Madoff in any context.
Curt
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Nice post Ken M (as usual). Lance A is innocent until shown otherwise. And it hasn't been shown otherwise.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 31, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
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For me, if there is evidence he cheated which leads to a 'conviction' of it, I'll simply think 'he cheated, he's guilty, he should be stripped of any titles he earned while cheating.'
Until then, he is innocent until proven guilty. Pretty straightforward to me.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Aug 31, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
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Lifer = Tool
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Aug 31, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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Nice post Ken M (as usual). Lance A is innocent until shown otherwise. And it hasn't been shown otherwise.
It's not quite so clear. He's said he's not fighting the allegations.
I'd construe this as the equivalent of pleading no contest. He accepts that the verdict, officially, will be guilty. He accepts that he will be stripped, officially, of his medals. He can state, honestly, that he was not "found" guilty. He can say he won the TDF seven times. Since the governing body will see this as the functional equivalent of a guilty plea, they can close their case. So, no more unpleasant allegations and stories will be surfacing, officially.
This, in the short term, suits everyone. In the longer term this is a bad ending to this saga. Bad because there is no resolution; see the ups and downs of this thread for instance. It's no ending at all.
One the one hand, the saga looks on the surface like the witch-hunt that Armstrong's supporters claim it to be. Maybe he never doped but was one of the greatest athletes of all time. The accusations are all trumped up out of jealously. Maybe he is, truly, tired of fighting.
On the other, perhaps he doped his entire career. Bit by bit, rumors have surfaced and, one by one, those who supported and enabled his doping have been persuaded to tell their tales. And now, with a mountain of evidence, leaving him no honorable way out, he's crying uncle.
This murky limbo of non-verdict is Armstrong's choice. The regular sporting and media world that fixates on winners and losers, stars, heroes. Armstrong took full advantage of this media game while he was a winner, a star.
Now he's refusing to play.
Even If he's innocent, he's really letting his fans down by crying uncle, refusing an honest accounting of what happened. Don't be so hard on the Chief; he's onto something here that goes deeper than one guy riding a bicycle.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 31, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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As an ex-Navy guy I have no compunction stating:
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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He is going down. When it all comes out as it will in the next couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see how you all react then.
What you mean, is you wonder how we will all respond when confronted with actual EVIDENCE?
Gosh, isn't that what we SHOULD respond to?
What are YOU reacting to, since you admit that the evidence is NOT out?
Rumor, accusation, suspicion.
I notice that you did not respond to my comment that if a Chief wants to "get" a sailor, they will. You are obviously proud of that system, and that way of justice.
This morning, I heard an interesting segment on NPR about George Takai
http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160264485/george-takei-takes-story-of-internment-to-the-stage
But his latest project aims to bring a different kind of story to the stage, one with personal and historical resonance. The actor was born in Los Angeles to a Japanese-American family just a few years before Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor. After that 1941 attack, he and his family were among the tens of thousands of U.S. citizens of Japanese descent who were forced to move to internment camps.
"We were first taken from our home ... in Los Angeles to a horse stable at a race track, San Anita Race Track, near Los Angeles. And we were there for a few months while the camps were being built. And from there we were taken to the swamps of southeastern Arkansas. So, all the Japanese-Americans that were incarcerated followed that pattern: first, what's called an 'assembly center,' a very innocuous-sounding name, and from there to a 'relocation center,' another innocuous word."
"But there [was] another group of people who I admire equally. They're the ones that said, 'Yes, I'm an American and I will fight for this country, but I won't go as an internee from behind these barbed wire fences, leaving my family in imprisonment. I will go only on the condition that I go as an American; that I can report to my hometown draft board with my family in our home, and then I will serve.' And for that courageous and principled stand, they were tried and found guilty of draft evasion and put into federal penitentiaries.
"It was the sheet of paper that was to ascertain the loyalty of people that the government had imprisoned on the suspicion — merely the suspicion, not the guilt — of being potential spies, fifth columnists, traitors. Everyone over the age of 17 had to respond to it whether you were male or female, citizen or noncitizen. ... Question 27 asked 'Will you bear arms to defend the United States of America?' — this being asked of an 87-year-old immigrant lady as well as a 17-year-old young man. Even more insidious was the next question, Question 28. It asked, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it said, 'Will you swear your loyalty to the United States of America and foreswear your loyalty to the emperor of Japan?' The government assumed that if you're born with this face — even if you're an American, never been to Japan — that we are born with an organic, inborn loyalty to the emperor. It was offensive and the amazing thing was that so many young people answered yes to those two offensive questions and went and served."
What struck me about that, was that SUSPICION ONLY being the basis of punishment.
Chief, I don't know if your "name" coyly refers to an American Indian heritage, but if it does, why should you have been allowed to serve with the US Military? Don't you owe allegiance to another nation, the Indian Nations? Maybe that is why you were never a commissioned officer, you did't have the loyalty to the country?
Now that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as I don't doubt your loyalty for a second, and I apologize if offense was given. But you can see where this sort of thing leads.
We go your route, we can conveniently just forget all that pesky evidence and proof business, and just deal with people on the basis of appearance, or their last name, or rumors.
That's not the country you fought for.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Ken:
So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?
Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?
I don't know about those people, I haven't see their sworn testimony. What did you think when you read it?
I think OJ did it. However, I actually heard the actual evidence, and after I did, I made a judgement.
By the way, I think the jury came to the correct verdict, based upon what was presented to them.
So you STILL won't respond to the allegation that Chief's will "get" a sailor if they want them gotten? Are you as guilty as LA, since you are choosing not to respond to an accusation? How many innocent sailors careers did you destroy, because you felt like it?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Landis toured the country soliciting donations from his fan base for his legal defense...Floyd swore he was innocent ...Then he gets popped , exposing himself as a liar and cheat...Same thing happened with Hamilton more or less and eventually Hamilton is exposed for doping...An aquaintance that rode in the recent olympics shared a pitiful story about Tyler during his last competetions on US ground where Tyler was trying to convince other riders that he hadn't used PED's...Floyd and Tyler got caught and i can see how they would want Lance to be exposed but i think these 2 emotionally unstable athletes lack credibility...? I would speculate that Lance doped just like the rest of the peloton but until any evidence is brought forward it is just speculation...And i agree with Big Mig's opinions that USADA does not have the authority to ban UCI athletes...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Just in: OJ and Paul Ryan plotting to lynch Lance Armstrong, but only to within an inch of his life since Paul is pro-life and OJ quite obviously isn't.
May seen fishy to you, it ain't nothin' to me
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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If any Sailor chooses to not change their ways and play by the rules & regs, continues to lie, cheat and/or steal, he/she then will be "Gotten" rid of by the Chief. That is the Chiefs duty which he/she accepted the day they took the Chiefs Creed and put on the Hat. But only after the Chief does what is expected of them to motivate/discipline (look up the latin definition btw) that particular Sailor.
I don't disagree with this and the fact a great deal of what goes on in the military is mindless bullshit isn't necessarily the chiefs / master sargents fault per se. The job just happens to attract personality types who revel in it's use as a behavioral filter to help identify and assess the malcontents. The problem is, if you have an IQ over 100, then the stifling mindlessness of what passes [unexamined] as 'tradition' is overwhelmingly boorish and adolescent.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?
As others have correctly pointed out, the actual blood test results should take precedence over any sort of verbal testimony. Why? Because it constitutes actual physical evidence--and eye witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate, for various reasons. As someone else also pointed out, for a system to be fair that system must also work both ways--and the USADA kangaroo court does not do that. Nobody believes that positive blood tests for doping could be challenged by a number of teammates testifying that he didn't dope--either the blood tests are definitive, or they are not.
With respect to the USADA claims of actual blood test evidence, all I have read is that they asserted that some of LA's tests are "consistent with doping," whatever that is supposed to mean. As far as I know, they have not specified what samples are being referred to, i.e. during LA's TDF victory years or much later--and that specific language troubles me. For example, a person can have symptoms "consistent" with having a heart attack and not be having a heart attack.
Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?
At least you leave no doubt about where you're coming from. First you compare Lance Armstrong to the biggest thief and embezzler in US history (the convicted felon Bernie Madoff) and now you compare him to a cold blooded murderer. You can get off your high horse concerning truth, integrity and honesty now. Everyone can pretty clearly see that those things aren't really what you're interested in.
Curt
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It is apparent that neither you Ken nor healyje, personally experience nor partook in these types of strict operations.
I inadvertently did something 'wrong' my first few days on the Providence as a result of being clueless about boats, having attended an aviation boot camp at NAS Memphis. As a result I spent the entirety of '72 on the line six-on/six-off in a very active 5"/38 gun mount (where my hearing went) and usually spent one of my off sixes doing helo ops or flying photo recons looking for SAM sites. So yeah, I do actually know what I'm talking about. I spent '73 on the Blue Ridge assembling the daily intelligence brief presentations for the floating heads of the seventh fleet / inter-services taskforce as a very informally 'adopted' personal assistant to the commander who was the floating head of naval intelligence for the fleet.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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F....the (drug) police. Whoa, did I say that? lynnie
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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OJ was found to be innocent... remember.
The judicial/legal system found Simpson not guilty, after a criminal trial. That system very rarely finds someone to be innocent, although a ruling of not guilty/acquittal, or a withdrawal of charges, may amount to that.
Simpson was found to be liable in a civil trial for damages for wrongful death, for the same events, and essentially bankrupted.
Simpson was found guilty in the court of public opinion.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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OJ was found to be innocent... remember.
Yes, but OJ actually had a fair trial in an impartial court. I didn't agree with the outcome, but I was satisfied with the process. In contrast, the Justice Department dropped their case against Lance Armstrong because there was insufficient evidence to proceed--the same reason French authorities dropped their earlier doping investigations of LA.
It is fairly clear to a number of people (me among them) that the so called "arbitration process" employed by the USADA is not inherently fair--and that those fighting USADA allegations have very little chance of prevailing because the standard of proof required for finding guilt is so low.
I don't know what the precise USADA arbitration standard for a finding of guilt is, but it is clearly less than the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and appears to be significantly less than even the normal civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence," particularly if the validity of actual blood test results can effectively be negated by mere witness testimony.
Curt
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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OJ was found to be innocent... remember.
Sheeit, maybe Paul Ryan (if he's not too tired from those sub 3-hour marathons) and Lance Armstrong should lynch OJ. Lets put some justice into the justice system.
Perhaps a self-lynching?
Mary the Elephant, Lynched in Erwin, Tennessee, 13 September, 1916
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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If anyone really reads why the USJD investigation was dropped, they will find out that all potentially incriminating incidents occurred on foreign non-US soil. Thus their jurisdiction was totally invalid and any charges brought on would not fly in any US Court.
That is completely false.
http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2012/02/doj-armstrong.html
Then again, you seem to like stuff that is just made up.
Curt
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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from the cite above
Birotte did not offer a reason for closing the probe
Did anybody else offer up reasons?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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CURT: Ah, via your ref, please show where it clearly states "WHY" the USDJ/FDA dropped their investigation.
You can't. They never officially stated why it was dropped.
Correct. So you can't simply make some reason up--in spite of how much "common sense" you might think it makes.
Curt
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Again, all these allegations occurred outside the US.
Did someone from the U.S. fly over and take notes?
If all of 'em occurred outside, why were they being investigated inside the U.S.?
Where is the list of allegers? Did they allege all the actions occurred outside the U.S.?
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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The Chief don't ride, Charlie don't surf.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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A very long awaited one at that. The more folks come out and tell their stories, the more this dude, LA, is looking like one sorry mean ass destructive dude to anyone that turned their backs on him, his "win at all any cost" antics and threatened to tell the truth.
1) Stories is probably exactly what they are.
2) The idea that "stories" should negate 500+ clean blood tests is absurd.
3) Even if LA is guilty of blood doping, stripping him of his 7 TDF titles and giving them to other TDF riders who were also doping makes absolutely no sense. That would do absolutely nothing to improve the credibility of the sport.
Curt
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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It is apparent that neither you Ken nor healyje, personally experience nor partook in these types of strict operations. Thus your inability to comprehend and understand this philosophy.
Strict operations? compared with what I'm used to, you were involved with the sloppiest operations imaginable. Put it this way, 90% of the time, you are practicing and prancing to get ready for the real thing. 100% of the time, I'm doing the real thing. so you have about a 10% appreciation for what I do. Get off the high horse.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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This most recent event when LA was getting his ass handed to him by his far stronger team mate and LA insisted that he cease doing so. This photo says it all the TDF after that event occurred...
Are you dense?
Cycling racing teams are ALSO heirarchies, just like the military. And just like there, people have roles to fill. Most of the riders are NOT there to win races, they are there to facilitate the leaders doing that.
They are paid to do that.
You cite an example of a rider not doing their job and being disciplined, as an example of someone being unstable.
Well, gosh, that would mean that a Chief disciplining a sailor for not doing their job on a team would be unstable too....YOU would be an EXPERT on instability, it seems!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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If anyone really reads why the USJD investigation was dropped, they will find out that all potentially incriminating incidents occurred on foreign non-US soil. Thus their jurisdiction was totally invalid and any charges brought on would not fly in any US Court.
Chief, is your argument so weak that you have to make up lies?
You obviously have no experience with the legal system. The US Dept of Justice does not empanel a Grand Jury, then issue subpoenas and take testimony on a situation in which they have no jurisdiction.
Are you kidding?
Of course, you know far more than CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/03/sport/lance-armstrong/index.html
Prosecutors called witnesses to a federal grand jury in Los Angeles as they investigated the case, but they apparently determined that they lacked evidence to bring a charge.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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CURT: Ah, via your ref, please show where it clearly states "WHY" the USDJ/FDA dropped their investigation.
You can't. They never officially stated why it was dropped.
But YOU definitively stated why!
You can't have it both ways.
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WBraun
climber
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Federal prosecutors dropped their doping charges against Armstrong just before the USADA filed its charges.
It is possible that the U.S. government dropped its criminal case in order to continue prosecution through the anti-doping agency, which is not governed by the same rules of law.
Although the agency is listed as a nonprofit organization, it receives 74 percent of its funding from the government and 26 percent from the U.S. Olympic Committee.
Unlike what federal prosecutors would face in court, the anti-doping agency doesn't have to show the accused the evidence it will have to defend itself against.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Riley,
This is why:
"Yesterday afternoon, the Associated Press published the first story detailing the contents of The Secret Race, the highly anticipated Lance Armstrong tell-all written by former U.S. Postal Service teammate Tyler Hamilton and longtime Outside contributing editor Daniel Coyle."
So the "objective" story that you posted was published by a magazine with a HUGE conflict of interest, and starts off by describing how OBJECTIVE readers found it a retread of Hamilton's charges.....then goes on to hype the book shamelessly.
c'mon.
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steve shea
climber
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Any cycling enthusiasts who follow this stuff know about Levi's involvement? Did Levi cave or stay clean.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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This is a new medical record , a 10 day erection for Lance.....Talk about doping...! Somebody better come clean about abusing the ED medications...RJ
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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This is the first inside story I know of concerning how easily athletes beat dope testing and what they do to accomplish this goal.
You have to wonder how,
after having been indoctrinated and trained in all the techniques by the best dope test scofflaw of all time,
the tattlers managed to get caught by failing their tests.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Ken my friend - You are at a disadvantage.
I don't think you have read all the articles and I am wondering if you have even read one of them? You are to smart to have these opinions and have read those articles.
An objective writer actually wrote that, although some writers and media outlets have played this down as a sort of retread, it is anything but that, and is instead a very honest detailed description of the day to day cheating, and how it was done over many years, unlike anything we have seen before.
But I don't take his word for it - the anecdotes, stories and facts from the story are a little mind blowing. It tells me for the first time how cheaters across all sports have so easily beat these tests for years.
How Marian Jones, Flo Jo, and Karl Lewis never tested positive as well as an endless line of other lying and arrogant cheaters.
One of the most remarkable tales of Armstrong is that the level of fraud and collusion was so high, between LA and the UCI, that Armstrong actually called the UCI on his own teammates and other riders if he felt they were challenging his empire.
Armstrong is one sick f*#k.
And yes - I cant stand bullies
Which all assumes that what is written is correct.
Note how you have been swayed by the character assassination of LA....your last paragraph demonstrates that your hatred colors your view.
But I did read the articles. In fact, the specific one that you singled out that I was referring to, written by the EDITOR of Outside, which is basically a publicity piece on the book.
I note that you don't disclose that the co-author has written 3 OTHER books on LA, also attacks. Perfect match for Hamilton, I'd say.
You might consider, if the issue of the drug stuff is so cut and dried, why all the dredging to smear every aspect of LA's life? I mean everything, including marriages?
It has the feel of a campaign that was orchestrated on the premise of "do what we say, or we will ruin your life."
Is this Russian Putin bringing the hammer down on Khodorkovsky?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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^I believe I mentioned this before:
V E N D E T T A
Tour de Taco?
As long as we're wondering about things. Why is it we can tell there have
been 1,809,570 posts, but we can't see how many topics (threads) there are?
Was also wondering, does anybody know this guy?
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saa
climber
not much of a
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Somebody put Lance Armstrong on a rope. Come on: Dean, Alex, Hans, another?
And Kenny, perhaps another speaker at Facelift. It s a little late yes.
But admit that LA sleeping one week at Camp 4 would be, eeeeerrr, historical?
Sunbeam
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Well, so you guys think things get interesting on this forum...
Jonathon Vaughters, in the Clinic(doping discussions) forum on Cyclingnews basically admitted that several of his current Garmin team riders previously doped while at USPS. If he is willing to do that, actually naming riders and friends, and in one case giving some details, I can only guess that there is a lot of doping details that are going to come out real soon, and he was just trying to get ahead of it.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Nah, I hate the guy...true... But it's because I see him for what he is...
Inferiority complex?
Listen dude, did you ever study the history of cycling and PE? Strychnine, cocaine, alcohol, caffeine, speed . . . its all been done before, long before the man you despise was even born! Get off your pathetic, self righteous crusade and learn something.
Oh, so Tyler Hamilton's book is going to set the record straight? What kind of pharmaceuticals are you abusing?
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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I just read Tyler's book.
It is mandatory reading for all you yayhoos, Lance haters and Lanceophiles alike.
Doubt him if you wish naive ones.
From Outside Mag.
"What ultimately makes the book so damning, however, is that it doesn’t require readers to put their full faith in Hamilton’s word. In the book’s preface, which details its genesis, Coyle not so subtly addresses Armstrong’s supporters by pointing out that, while the story is told through Hamilton, nine former Postal teammates agreed to cooperate with him on The Secret Race, verifying and corroborating Hamilton’s account. Nine teammates. That fact is the first punch thrown at Armstrong’s supporters—and it might be the most damaging one. Next Wednesday, when The Secret Race comes out, backers will probably make the familiar claim that Hamilton is a disgruntled, bitter ex-rival who got popped for doping and is now looking to cash in. But that doesn’t explain why nine former teammates agreed to cooperate."
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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^Well, I'm at a disadvantage here, not having read the book. However, saying nine riders agreed to cooperate doesn't say much.
While I'm of the opinion that Lance Armstrong doped, why is he such big target, while others are not?
Are Hamilton, any of the nine, Contador banned from the Chicago Marathon?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:41am PT
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California senators are investigating USADA and its' case against LA....Sounds like USADA is getting some of its' own medicine...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 01:46am PT
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The problem here is that you all can only see Lance as either "good" or "bad." Why can't Lance be a hero to the cancer community for all the work he has done to help fight the disease, but also be someone who used performance enhancing drugs during his career as a cyclist?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 01:52am PT
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Exactly Bruce. He did good for cancer and used enhancing drugs. The question we don't exactly know is if any top cyclist DIDN'T use drugs.
Cause if they all did, it's really not about Lance but the whole friggin sport eh?
Peace
Karl
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 03:06am PT
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Riley wrote:
maybe his leaving his wife and kids was my first hint
I don't know Lance Armstrong, so don't know if he is an a-hole or not.
I do however know a lot of good people who went through crappy divorces, both with and without kids.
You just don't know the intimate details of a couple's life, and unless there were extreme circumstances (abuse, drugs, scientology, etc.) you just can't judge.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 03:09am PT
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Nice post, Bruce.
I'll add (though it has already been written) that if this investigation to impugn Lance Armstrong does not have the overall goal of punishing all those who used performance enhancing drugs during Lance's career and to clean up cycling as a whole, then all this is only a witch hunt, plain and simple.
Now that the other guys are coming forward, what are they doing at the lower echelons of cycling to clean up the sport?
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 03:38am PT
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Riley wrote:
. I do however know a lot of good people who went through crappy divorces, both with and without kids.
Actually we do know the details - his personal assistant at the time, obviously just another deranged LA hater, writes a very honest account.
Ok, I sit corrected, you're an expert on Lance's relationship with his ex-wife and kids after reading a third-person account.
If you're okay with it, may I have your permission not to pass judgment on this aspect of Lance's life?
We're all saints and sinners at some point, when it comes to the intimate details of a divorce, only the couple knows everything and it's really none of our business.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 10, 2012 - 09:17am PT
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The way and manner that he replied to Paul Kimmage (Irish cyclist and journalist), for me, does install the sense that Armstrong is indeed a bully. But a lot of 'celebs' are.
I agree with Karl, his work for cancer victims/research is to be admired, but the guy cheated as a cyclist, end of story (for me at least).
I will admire him on one level, but not on any other. And so what if the others cheated, did Armstrong really want to be the star and 'sports hero'? That he would go to lengths of doping. He was found out, and we will know more about that in the future.
Good for you Lance for your cancer foundation, boo to you for being a cheat ("but the others did it", I can hear him finally saying one day, if he is ever ashamed enough to admit it).
Have I ever achieved what he has? Nope, but I only did recreational drugs in the late 1960s- early 1980s, and they never helped me to be a better climber.
Didn't help me as a cycllist, didn't really help me at all. Thank gawd I never went for the needle, like one of my heroes (fictional) Sherlock Holmes.
"The needle to the last, eh, Holmes?" said Professor Moriarty. (Sherlock Holmes and the Secret Weapon, 1943).
Off topic, Basil Rathbone was the best at playing SH, IMO. Though I don't particlucarly like the way the directors had Nigel Bruce play Dr Watson, beinng a buffoon at times.
Oh, back on topic, Armstrong who? Neil, the polite and real American hero? Or my (one of them) anatomy and physiology professor, Lee Armstrong ("I would die happy know that I had one original thought")?
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:09am PT
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Fair enough, Chief, but then by your definition no cyclist, current or past, has "balls", has character or has "manned up".
All those coming forward have proclaimed their innocence until forced to admit guilt.
I’ll ask the question again, why do you single out Lance instead of calling out all cyclists and all professional cycling organizations?
They’re all dirty to some extent or another, whether actively or passively.
I’ll also write it again, we’re all saints and we’re all sinners. I’ve witnessed in my short lifetime supposed cowards act as heroes, and people you could supposedly count on stab others in the back like nobody’s business.
It ain’t all black and white.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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Theory is if you get Lance and since he's guilty especially if all his own guys are outing him.
He's the top dog who according to all his team mates has been lying all these years and strong arming people to cover himself to boot.
He also used that position and his fame to make a lot of money.
In order to clean up something you need to get the real dirt first.
I think this is how the Chief sees it.
You guys just love to to make arguments and go after people yourselves here.
Anyways this is just my useless opinion.
Get a life people and focus on the subject matter and it's NOT about the "Chief" .....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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I say send in seal team six and put one in his head...!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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Coz, Riley is a great guy but he ain't me, and for that he should be very happy. ;-)
I happen to agree with you.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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OK, I will consider Lance a hero still if he comes completely clean, apologizes to all the kids who look up to him, AND gives all his ill-gotten earnings from over the years to his cancer institute. I hear they are looking for a bike mechanic at the local REI. He can start a local youth cycling league oh, and say 1000 Hail Marys.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 10, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
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What is starting to emerge is LA as a man who is cynical beyond measure. There are people in this world who admire such a personality.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Sep 10, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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So will they strip Eddy Merckx of his titles, too? It seems they have more evidence against The Cannibal than they do Armstrong.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 10, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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Lance Armstrong is smart, but not smart enough.
If he'd really been thinking, he'd have renounced his U.S. citizenship (like the Facebook guy) and "based" himself (ha) in the Cayman Islands. Lots of benefits from that strategy.
Whoops, well maybe not the Caymans
Police in the Cayman Islands rigorously enforce laws against illegal drugs. U.S. citizens should avoid buying, selling, holding or taking illegal drugs under any ...
But then, maybe not, doesn't say what they do about non-U.S. citizens.
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hb81
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
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BTW: They have NO evidence on EM. They had no doping controls/restrictions during his tenure. None. At least EM had the balls to come out and confess his usage.
Thats just flat out wrong. They started testing mid 60s.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Sep 10, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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When I think about him, I think about him getting his first wife to artificially conceive, a process she was un-enthusiastic about. Then when the house is filled with crying babies he tells her that he can't train with all the distraction, dumps her and the kids. Of course, she didn't get much financially.
That's how important "family" is to the guy. Nothing matters more than winning, definately not his wife(s) and kids.
He's a bad guy, at least according to a couple of the "ex's".
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 10, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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If there were no rules, or no consequences (whichever) in Eddie's day, then it took no balls to admit to anything.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Sep 10, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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So will they strip Eddy Merckx of his titles, too? It seems they have more evidence against The Cannibal than they do Armstrong.
Really?
Got a ref.
BTW: They have NO evidence on EM. They had no doping controls/restrictions during his tenure. None. At least EM had the balls to come out and confess his usage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx
Merckx has condemned doping but he tested positive three times.[4] The first time was in the 1969 Giro d'Italia[6] where he tested positive for the stimulant Reactivan at Savona, after leading the race through 16 stages. He was expelled from the Giro...
...Merckx was also found positive after winning the Giro di Lombardia in 1973.[6] He had taken Mucantil (Iodinated glycerol)...
...Then he was caught after taking Stimul (pemoline) in the 1977 Flčche Wallonne. Merckx said:
"That, I can't deny. I was positive along with around 15 others. I was wrong to trust a doctor."[6]
In 1974, a Belgian biochemist, Professor Michel Debackere, perfected a test for a group of piperidine stimulant drugs (Lidepran, Meratran, and Ritalin) which were used by pro cyclists. Since they were now detectable, this group of drugs fell out of favor within the pro peloton, and some riders instead used pemoline, another amphetamine-like drug. Then in 1977, Debackere once again developed a new drug test, which could detect pemoline. This test caught three of the biggest names in Belgium: Merckx, Freddy Maertens and Michel Pollentier...
In the 1990s, he became a friend of Lance Armstrong, and supported him when Armstrong was accused of drug use, stating he rather "believed what Lance told him than what appeared in newspapers".
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Sep 10, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
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Lance still won those tours. If not, then nobody won them.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
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Lance sounds like a bastard...? But i am witholding judgement just in case i get invited to his ranch...RJ
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stilltrying
Trad climber
washington indiana
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Sep 10, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
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Cheryl Crow spoke highly of Lance today. Class act that Lady. Nice to see/hear someone be respectful of an ex lover for a change. She also mentioned how hard he worked for his foundation and he has raised $500 Million for Cancer. No person is one thing or another, we are all some good and some bad. The ones that think they are not are the ones with a problem.Interesting how the media swoons over Big George and gave him such a honorable send off. Guess Lance's chief collaborator in all his TDF titles did not notice anything or was not bothered by any questionable activities until the FEDS show up. They just like George's personality more I guess. The idea that the U.S. Goverment should be involved in sports issues is lunacy. Give me my taxes back so I can use it for something worthwhile.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
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Actually we do know the details - his personal assistant at the time, obviously just another deranged LA hater, writes a very honest account.
You mean the pig who was hired to provide confidential assistance, who now is attempting to get even with LA by spilling what he wants to say about their relationship.
I read the words this hack wrote. Hateful spite.
What else do you need to know about a man hired to do something confidential, and who then has the lack of integrity to try to cash it in.
Plus, Riley, I'm sure if we find whoever it is who really hates you (and you have them), and published their thoughts on you and your relationships, you'd be a proud puppy.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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Police in the Cayman Islands rigorously enforce laws against illegal drugs. U.S. citizens should avoid buying, selling, holding or taking illegal drugs under any ...
But then, maybe not, doesn't say what they do about non-U.S. citizens.
Note, many of the drugs not allowed in competition are PERFECTLY LEGAL DRUGS for anyone else to have and use, under certain circumstances.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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Gary,
Blood Doping is not Drug use.
Sorry. A whole different and far more dangerous animal.
EDIT: Gary, get and read Tyler's book to get a glimpse of the dire danger involved in the practice of blood doping.
Blood doping IS drug use.
EDIT: Gary get medical information from medical people, not washed-up cheating bike riders, or washed-up sailors.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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Chief, "blood doping" could mean any number of different things, including as you mentioned, transfusions, but also things like EPO and Aranesp, that are definitely drugs.And yes they can be dangerous, but so can other forms of doping. Google Tom Simpson if you want an example.
And while I have a tremendous amount of respect for Eddy Merckx, as he was a far greater champion than Lance, it is pretty clear that he doped, and he is still a strong supporter of Lance.
For that matter Jacques Anquetil, one of the other 5 time winners admitted to doping and said almost everyone did it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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Chief...so it's okay for you to use the blood doping technique and not Lance...? Now i hate you...
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
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Autologous doping combat soldier fights for his life = zero money winnings.
Lance Armstrong blood doping winning TDF = 450,000 euros plus money from all the sponsors. (Millions)
You still think it's the same?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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WBRaun...I think they are the same..Money has no influence on the warrior spirit and money is useless in both worlds...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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The money in bicycle racing pales compared to say zum Beispiel (z.B.) the money in professional football and baseball and basketball. Yet, players are being "caught" in all three sports. I'd say Lance Armstrong could make more money as a doping consultant to the stars, than he ever made riding his bike.
Do the math, or as Ramblin' Willie Clinton says, "the arithmetic".
Not to unnecessarily exacerbate the confusiion in an already confused issue, but what is the likelihood that al qaeda (must confess, I had to look up the spelling on that one) autologously dopes?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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F*#k Lance....he cheated, they all probably cheated, but he did it with a special kind of arrogance and sense of entitlement that I, for one, find especially nauseous.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
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Chief...I'm pulling your leg for christ's sake...It would be interesting to have your blood cells stimulated though....I have to agree with Ken M's remarks about Lance's gofer spilling the frijoles though...The guy should have stayed quiet...I have a friend who worked for Eddy B. and the same thing happened without much money being involved...Eddy promised this and that and when the cash was all spent , my friend didn't get sh#t...Not even a suburu montgomery cycling cap...My friend worked on Lance come to think of it...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Well I was following right along until:
but he did it with a special kind of arrogance and sense of entitlement
I don't choose to keep up with all this, but what is your conclusion based upon?
My take is that folks who reach up into the upper echelons of accomplishment are usually a bit cocky. It's a fine line as to what is too cocky.
Did Babe Ruth really point where the ball was going before he hit that home run? Did John Bachar really issue that climbing challenge? Did Wilt Chamberlain really have all that sex (and how many were white girls?)?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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The key word is "special," and you are right that arrogance and sense of entitlement are common failings with great atheletes....dosen't make it okay. Then again there are people like Chris Sharma and Roberto Clemente.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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Zbrown...Did wilt really have sex with all those women...? Is the pope catholic...?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:05am PT
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And Jim Donini a fine man in the upper echelon also .....
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:29am PT
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From what I've read Mr. Donini is probably in the upper, upper echelon and on the "good" side of that slender cockiness line, but:
I'm still wondering where the "arrogance" tag is coming from. Like I said, I'm not keeping up, but is all this from the Hamilton book?
Maybe "cocky" isn't a good word for Wilt, but he was quite boastfull. I met him briefly once and he was a very friendly, personable guy. I think someone else on the ST did also and says the same. As far as religion goes, I don't know.
rj: Well I do know one that he didn't have sex with. When he tried to hit on her, she ran.
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Gary
Social climber
Monza by the streetlight
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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You still don't get the concept that the DOD is NOT a democracy do you.
You do what you are ordered to do. No choice in that matter after one signs on the dotted line.
Wait a dang minute. In another thread you said the Navy was an anarchist organization. Which is it?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 11, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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Zbrown...Wilt wasn't cocky personality -wise but the term all men aren't created equal definitely applied to wilt's stature in more ways than one...I know this from being in the Laker locker room...RJ
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 11, 2012 - 01:08am PT
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Extraction and reintroduction of one's own blood (autologous blood doping) taken at different intervals of training IS NOT one bit considered drug use. Perfecting the timing of reintroduction at the competition level will boost ones ability to perform far more effortlessly at peak levels of competition.
This is a technique I was trained in THIRTY YEARS AGO. It is DEFINITELY drug use. It requires a medical license to order, and to purchase the equipment. If someone has a reaction, you have to fill out a DRUG REACTION report.
You may not think of it that way, BUT YOU AINT IN THE NAVY, here.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 11, 2012 - 08:48am PT
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Nick D, I have not read anything about Armstrong except in the newspapers, magazines, online etc. But journalists can distort the truth (I have been asked to and only did on one occasion, to write a positive article about tobacco, and I am anti-smoking). I needed the money. I am a whore hack.
But if your post about his first wife is true, then I will NEVER ever respect or admire this guy.
Now, I suppose, before I become too judgmental, I should seek out more facts.
Neil Armstrong was a hero.
My former A&P prof, Lee Armstrong, brilliant.
Lance Armstrong? Comes across as arrogant (and "I fought cancer give me a break") and false, from the interviews I have seen and read.
I lost my closest brother to cancer on May 18, my sister to breast cancer last year. Okay, Lance Armstrong created a cancer foundation, one of many. But his cynicism reeks.
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Gary
Social climber
Monza by the streetlight
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Sep 13, 2012 - 08:56am PT
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Oh, they doped all right. BTW, the Tour website still lists Armstrong's wins.
A Sunday in Hell
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Sep 13, 2012 - 10:34am PT
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World Anti-Doping Agency director-general David Howman has welcomed a new test for human growth hormone. The test was approved by WADA prior to the Olympic Games and was used to catch two athletes at the recent Paralympics. Speaking to Cyclingnews,
“It’s a significant step forward,” Howman said when discussing the finalisation of a human growth hormone test. Although still in its infancy, the ability to test for HGH is a major stepping stone in the fight against doping. Originally funded by the IOC in the late 90s, WADA took up leadership in the development of the test in the mid-2000s.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/howman-welcomes-hgh-test-talks-hamilton-and-uci
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 13, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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Does anyone recall that very dramatic increases in HGH can be obtained by exercising, lifting weights etc. on vibrating platforms?
I'll try to find the references, but it raises an interesting issue as to whether or not it should be permitted.
Well there are a whole sheeitload of people selling them, so they probably don't work.
However,
Hormonal Responses to Whole Body Vibration in Men
C. Bosco, M. Iacovelli, O. Tsarpela, M. Cardinale, M. Bonifazi, J. Tihanyi, M. Viru,
A. De Lorenzo, A. Viru
This study, conducted at Rome University and published in the European Journal of Applied Physiology (1999) measure whole body vibration’s effect on the production of key hormones testosterone, human growth hormone (HGH) and cortisol. The study consisted of performing jumping and mechanical testing together with EMG analysis of leg extensor muscles as well as blood data collection before and immediately following 10-minute sessions of whole body vibration treatment. The group experienced substantial increases in the production of testosterone and HGH, while also llustrating equally substantial decreases in production of the inhibiting hormone cortisol.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Sep 13, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Thanks Gary for the archival footage . . . those guys were riding in way more heinous conditions than modern day riders. Talk about bad ass motherf*#kers! All these Lance haters cannot fathom the suffering involved in professional cycling. It is no wonder PE is and has been so prevalent. In what other sport do athletes have to perform daily for weeks on end?
Get out there and move your non-doping asses!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Sep 20, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
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I leant my book to Dr. F.
Everyone who (Lanceophiles and Lanceophobes) weighs in on anything related to bike racing needs to stfu before reading it.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:29am PT
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Hey Jebus, aren't you a myth?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 21, 2012 - 12:32am PT
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dee ee are you distributing copies of the book?
Lance air-riffing on Cocaine with Slowhand?
Lance after syringe exploded in right arm?
Lance simulating French journalists getting off to TDF stripping?
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Sep 22, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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Free copies to all!!! Whee hoo!!!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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How can USADA take away Lance's 7 titles years later when they didn't award him the TDF titles..?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 22, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
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How can they take them away.
Simple
By proxy.
They tell whoever awarded those titles to take them away from Lance.
If they tell USADA to fuk off then the titles remain in effect.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Sep 22, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
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Today - UCI chief questions USADA delay on Armstrong file.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 23, 2012 - 09:14am PT
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VALKENBURG, Netherlands — The chief of world cycling’s governing body is questioning why American anti-doping authorities have not sent him the file of evidence that prompted them to erase Lance Armstrong’s seven Tour de France titles and ban him for life. International Cycling Union President Pat McQuaid on Saturday said the United States Anti-Doping Agency had not given the UCI a date to expect the details, and he sounded impatient to receive them.
“UCI assumes that USADA have the file, the full file, as they’ve already made a decision based on it and therefore it’s difficult to understand why it hasn’t arrived yet,” McQuaid said from the Road Cycling World Championships in the southern Netherlands.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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Sep 23, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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The UCI is the machine that had a large part in enabling the doping. Or looking other way.
It seems that people who are involved in pro cycling or follow the sport at least somewhat closely are not at all surprised by all of this but that who don't follow the sport much or simply are aware of LA as a celebrity are the ones doing a lot of defending.
Here is another perspective from someone who worked closely with the one who's name shall not be spoken:
My Life with Lance Armstong
Eric
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knudeNoggin
climber
Falls Church, VA
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Sep 24, 2012 - 12:47am PT
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When I think about him, I think about him getting his first wife to artificially conceive, a process she was un-enthusiastic about. Then when the house is filled with crying babies he tells her that he can't train with all the distraction, dumps her and the kids. Of course, she didn't get much financially.
I wondered how their marriage came to an end,
and Google brought me (IIRC) >>her<< interview
with Oprah. Whatever it was, the thrust from her
stated perspective was more that SHE wasn't ready
for the sort of relationship that was needed, about
her not making her own needs important in the family
plans. She said nothing to support the assertion made
above. So, barring some evidence to the contrary,
I don't see the divorce as a particularly sharp charge
against Lance --who, I think, works to be a part of
his kids' upbringing.
Otherwise, on the others' --former teammates & staff &
competitors-- charges, I find it hard to believe that these
folks would suffer being on the wrong side of the Lance
machine, and to engage in all this hassle, if they were
making things up (which risks being exposed), et cetera.
*kN*
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Sep 27, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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From Cyclingnews
UCI questions USADA on Armstrong file delay
By: Laura Weislo Published: September 27, 17:23, Updated: September 27,
UCI president Pat McQuaid answers a question during a press conference held during the UCI road world championships in Valkenburg.
Source says evidence is still coming in
As tensions ahead of the release of the US Anti-Doping Agency's (USADA) file of evidence on the Lance Armstrong and US Postal Service Team doping conspiracy has grown to a peak, the UCI has issued a public statement from president Pat McQuaid questioning why the dossier of information has yet to land on his desk.
The USADA stated earlier this week that the file, which had been expected to be sent to the UCI and the World Anti-Doping Agency by the end of September, would now be provided no later than October 15.
McQuaid made his impatience known today, stating, "It is over a month since USADA sanctioned Lance Armstrong. We thought that USADA were better prepared before initiating these proceedings."
A source close to the case told Cyclingnews Wednesday that "information kept coming in, hence, the delay in getting the dossier to the UCI." USADA would not comment when asked if they were still gathering evidence.
The UCI reiterated this information in the press release, stating, "Reports state that its decision has been delayed because it is continuing to gather evidence and that it has yet to complete its case file."
McQuaid expressed his anxiety over the lack of finality. "The UCI had no reason to assume that a full case file did not exist but USADA's continued failure to produce the decision is now a cause for concern.
"It is at very least unusual that USADA would still be gathering evidence against a person after it has found that person guilty."
The president then suggested, "It seems that it would have been more useful for USADA to have used the time of the Tour de France, the Olympic Games and the Road World Championships to prepare their case in full rather than to make announcements."
Insinuating that the USADA was having "difficulty in putting the evidence together", McQuaid also claimed they only learned of the delay through the media "and not by any official communication from USADA".
However, Cyclingnews understands that USADA and the UCI have been in contact as recently as last week.
"It is not surprising that UCI would send a press release out attempting to undermine and question the substance of our case," USADA CEO Travis Tygart stated. "It is also troubling that they would claim to have had no contact with us which is inaccurate. As they know we will be providing them the 'reasoned decision' no later than October 15 through the process and at that time the questions contained in their publicly released statement today will be answered."
The UCI stated this week that it would uphold the lifetime ban of Armstrong and disqualification of his results back to August 1998 if, when it gets the dossier, it determines that the USADA had followed all applicable rules in coming to the decision.
Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 27, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
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The Chief's thread title is incorrect, libelous even.
Lance Armstrong did not "accept" any ban or loss of the Tour de France title. Those are not things that he agrees to. They are being imposed on him by the USADA.
Except the USADA doesn't have any authority to revoke Tour de France titles, any more than the California DMV can revoke a French driver's license issued to you in Paris.
Lance simply realized that he's being tooled. He can spend millions fighting the USADA and he'll still lose, even if he's innocent, because they're playing with a stacked deck.
Read the press release in the post above. The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) (English: International Cycling Union) is the world governing body for sports cycling and oversees international competitive cycling events.
If they have no confidence in the USADA, why should Lance have any? Why should we have any?
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Sep 27, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
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Actually, USADA has the right to revoke his titles and the UCI is bound to accept it under WADA rules. The UCI is sh*ting bricks right now because they are about to be fully exposed as a corrupt organization. The UCI is to cycling as Bud Selig was to baseball during the steroid era.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 27, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) chief John Fahey has said Armstrong's decision not to contest the allegations added up to nothing more than an admission of guilt.
"He had the right to rip up those charges, but he elected not to. Therefore the only interpretation in these circumstances is that there was substance in those charges," Fahey said.
WADA thinks that you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. This is not how it works in the USA.
Lance Armstrong never admitted guilt What he said:
“There comes a point in every man’s life when he has to say, ‘Enough is enough.’ For me, that time is now,” Armstrong said in a statement Thursday night.
Armstrong called the USADA investigation an “unconstitutional witch hunt” and said he saw no reason to participate in any further proceedings that might clear his name.
“If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA’s process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and — once and for all — put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance,” Armstrong said. “But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair.
Tracee Hamilton:
Who, and what, are we supposed to believe? And if we, like Armstrong, just want to give up, are we guilty of something as well? Apathy? A double standard? Drug use?
For me, if you take personalities out of the equation, you’re left with pee in a cup and blood in a syringe. Armstrong never failed a drug test. He was tested in competition, out of competition. He was tested at the Olympics, at the Tour de France, at dozens if not hundreds of other events. And he never failed a test. We know this because if he had, Travis T. Tygart, the head of USADA, would have personally delivered the results to every home in America, like a grim little Santa Claus.
Instead, Tygart gathered a group of people who swear they saw Armstrong doping. There has been no trial, no due process, but in the minds of many, that testimony outweighs the results of hundreds of drug tests.
People lie. Blood and urine usually don’t. And if they do, they don’t lie 500 times. People do. Some lie that many times in a week. But okay. Let’s assume these people really are witnesses, let’s assume they’re telling the truth, and then let’s assume that their testimony is the new standard, outweighing all drug test results.
Then what in the world is the point of drug testing? In any sport, by any group, at any level of competition? If the results can be discarded in favor of testimony, then let’s go right to the testimony phase and quit horsing around with blood and urine. The cheaters are always ahead of USADA and its brethren anyway. They have deeper pockets and better doctors. So let’s toss out the baby with the blood and urine bath water and just call in witnesses who will recount all the bad things they saw their fellow competitors do. What in the world could possibly be wrong with that system?
I don’t know if Armstrong did the things he’s accused of doing, and neither do you. I don’t know if these witnesses are telling the truth, and neither do you. I do know two things: First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.
It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t. A lot of athletes must be wondering the point of going through testing if they can be taken down anyway, regardless of the results, even years after the fact.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 27, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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yes The Chief who valiantly defended americas freedoms doesnt want to give Lance his own right to due process. "lets hang the mofo!"
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 27, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
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USADA is again delaying providing any justification to the UCI, and now says that they will provide it by October 15.
In other news today, Lance Armstrong is going on with his life and doing fine. Some organizations are de-certifying rather than banning him.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443916104578020514003260282.html
Triathlons Part Waters for Armstrong
Despite a Doping Ban, His Presence Sends Enrollments Soaring
Lance Armstrong is banned from competitions sanctioned by Olympic governing bodies—part of his punishment for deciding last month not to fight charges that he engaged in doping as a professional cyclist. But Armstrong remains more than America's most famous endurance athlete. He is its only famous endurance athlete.
So when he seeks to compete in a triathlon—a sport whose popularity ranks far below that of, say, bass fishing—his magnetism makes an unthinkable question suddenly thinkable: Does the number of extra enrollments he brings to an event outweigh the loss of certification by USA Triathlon?
Faced with that very question this month was the Half Full Triathlon in Maryland. For two years running, it had boasted USAT certification, a distinction that lowers insurance rates while offering professionals a chance to boost their international rankings.
But when presented with a recent race request from Armstrong, Half Full for this year decided to sacrifice its USAT certification. And it paid off. After announcing last Thursday that Armstrong would participate in the Oct. 7 race, enrollment jumped 20%, said race executive Brian Satola.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 27, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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yes The Chief who valiantly defended americas freedoms doesnt want to give Lance his own right to due process. "lets hang the mofo!"
The Chief was never "a Chief. He gets his title from being a career Chief Petty Officer in the Navy. He should use "Petty Chief."
Look up "petty" in the dictionary. It fits.
pet·ty (pt)
adj. pet·ti·er, pet·ti·est
1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance.
2. Marked by narrowness of mind, ideas, or views.
3. Marked by meanness or lack of generosity, especially in trifling matters.
4. Secondary in importance or rank; subordinate. See Synonyms at trivial.
5. Law Variant of petit.
[Middle English peti, from Old French, variant of petit; see petit.]
petti·ly adv.
petti·ness n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
I don't know whether Armstrong is guilty or not, but it's obvious to me that the USADA is a large unaccountable organization with a vendetta and is trying to steamroller him.
They're being asked to explain their decision, and they're not able to do so. I don't think they have any practice in that--because they normally don't have to.
"The UCI had no reason to assume that a full case file did not exist but USADA's continued failure to produce the decision is now a cause for concern," Pat McQuaid, the president of cycling's governing body, said in a statement on Thursday.
"It is over a month since USADA sanctioned Lance Armstrong. We thought that USADA were better prepared before initiating these proceedings," he added.
McQuaid had previously said he had no intention of contesting USADA's decision, unless the UCI was given serious reasons to do so.
The UCI noted in its statement that reports were suggesting USADA was still gathering evidence and has yet to complete its case file.
It seems that under the WADA rules, the USADA is responsbible for sending its "reasoned decision" to the UCI. The USADA is not been able to do that.
Since they announced their decision over a month ago, it is strange that they don't have a decision to forward and are now saying they won't until up to October 15.
UCI:
It is at very least unusual that USADA would still be gathering evidence against a person after it has found that person guilty. The UCI assumes that the reasons for any difficulty in putting the evidence together will be explained in USADA’s decision.”
Predictably the USADA responded quickly with accusations and name-calling directed at the UCI.
My advice to them would be to just shut up and deliver their decision. I hope it's made public so everyone can read it.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Sep 27, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
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1) Passing 500 tests when the tests are not good enough and/or are not even looking for the right drugs/evidence does not mean a person was not doping. Just a couple of examples- Marion Jones tested clean 200 times while doping. Bernhard Kohl(3rd place 2008 TDF)-"I was tested 200 times during my career, and 100 times I had drugs in my body. I was caught but 99 times I wasn't. Riders think they can get away with doping because most of the time they do"
2)Lance tested positive for cortisone in '99 and in a later investigation his blood samples from that year tested positive EPO. In 2001, tested positive for EPO at the Tour of Switzerland. Tygart will present these as part of his evidence.
3)USADA has said more evidence is pouring in and that is the reason for the delay. Nothing wrong with that.
Again, the UCI was a sham of an organization and allowed lots of shady things to go on. They are sh*ting bricks right now. It will not look good.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 28, 2012 - 12:21am PT
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Why aren't there five-hundred-post threads on the other dopers?
Keith Richards has taken more dope than anybody and had more transfusions.
I'm gonna strip him and make him an Ex Rolling Stone. Thankfully Brian Jones just died and spared everyone all this bullsheeit.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 28, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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Burchey -- "LA has ZERO affect on my life."
Oh bulls!t.
It's so easy to run your mouth into your foot.
If it has zero effect then you would never have said one word about it .....
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 28, 2012 - 12:44am PT
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It's not about lance or any of that.
Again .....
If it has zero effect then you would never have said one word about it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 28, 2012 - 01:36am PT
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Go ahead and take away Lances 7 TDF titles USADA , UCi , and The Chief...I doubt you will find any freak on this planet that could have beat Lance drugged or not drugged....Get on your bikes and take EPO and go out and beat Lance...Put your mouth where the foot meets the pedal...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 28, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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LA is going down.... hard.
When his boss Johan has his day in front of USADA, the testimonies will become public and LA's true behavior and persona will come out.
Game over.
Just like the rest of them roiders, juicers, cheaters in the modern world of sports.
And because its NOT pubic, how do you know what Lance Armstrong's "tue behavior and persona" is? I don't and I don't think you do either.
On the other hand, I think I have a pretty good grasp of your "behavior and persona" on this board, Chief Petty. Petty all the way through.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Sep 28, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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The Curious Use of Language in the Lance Armstrong Decision
Dr. Keith Devlin
Did Lance Armstrong dope or use blood transfusions during his professional cycling career? I have no idea. Nor, it appears, does anyone else except for Lance and perhaps a few members of his team. But as a mathematician with expertise in the use of language in reasoning, I find the much-touted central pillar of the United States Anti-Doping Agency's case against him does not stand up to even a cursory examination.
Apart from hearsay evidence from two disgraced former cycling teammates of Armstrong, the USADA bases its case (at least according to what they have said) on the blood and urine samples taken from the cyclist in 2009 and 2010, when he made a brief comeback to the sport after four years in retirement. In a June letter to Armstrong, subsequently made public, the USADA said those samples were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."
Though a recreational cyclist, my interest in this case is fairly minimal. It is that term "fully consistent with" that piqued my mathematician's interest. It is a very odd phrase to use in a situation like this, not least because it has absolutely no evidentiary force. It says nothing of any significance.
[Certainly, after two years deliberation, including testimony from former team-mates obtained under oath through a grand jury, the U.S. federal criminal investigation of the allegations made against him finally dropped the case early this year, saying there was no real evidence against him.]
Though the layperson typically thinks of mathematicians as being focused on numbers, that is actually not the case. That false view is a consequence of the mathematics taught in high school. Only at university are you likely to encounter the mathematics done by the professionals. High among our real areas of expertise are logical reasoning, rigorous proof, and the precise use of language.
Incidentally, I am not referring here to using language and reasoning precisely in esoteric discussions of arcane mathematical topics. Yes, we do that too. But we also apply our expertise in everyday, practical domains. (Homeland Security, to name one domain I myself have worked on.)
There are a number of terms we use to describe evidence. The strongest is "proof" (or "conclusive proof", but any mathematician will tell you the adjective is superfluous.) We might say that, "Evidence X proves that Y happened."
An alternative that might seem weaker, but in actuality is not, is that "Evidence X implies that Y happened."
Definitely weaker, is "Evidence X suggests (or indicates) that Y happened."
All of these have evidentiary power of differing degrees. And there are others.
At the other end of the spectrum, we can say, "Evidence X contradicts Y having happened." X proves Y did not occur.
Evidence collected to uncover wrong-doing, such as doping controls in sport, by virtue of their design, rarely (if at all) provide proof of innocence. At best, when a doping test does not come up positive, the most you can say is it did not yield proof. It does not rule out (i.e., does not contradict) doping, just as a negative result from a cancer screening does not mean you are cancer free, merely that the test did not detect any cancer.
So what does that USADA term "fully consistent with" mean? Well, first of all, let's drop the "fully"; it's superfluous. Consistency is a definitive term. Something is either consistent or not; no half measures. It's also a term mathematicians like myself are very familiar with -- again for real world uses as much if not more than within theoretical mathematics. It means "does not contradict". Nothing more, nothing less.
Given the availability of terms such as "proves," "indicates," "suggests," or more evocative terms such as "raises the distinct possibility that," why did the USADA decide to use the curious term "consistent with"? Since they surely spent a lot of time, and consulted with a number of lawyers, in drafting their letter, their choice of wording was clearly deliberate. Why choose a term that means "does not contradict"?
After all, I can say "Drinking milk as a child is (fully) consistent with using crack cocaine as an adult." Should we take that as evidence that milk producers are to blame for adult drug use? Of course not. But this example has exactly the same logical heart, and the same evidentiary force, as the USADA letter's "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."
Why not say "suggest" or "indicates"? They fall well short of "proof", but they do carry some weight.
"Does not contradict" is, then, it appears, a key part of their case against Armstrong. In which case, I find it troubling. The USA should have far higher standards of proof than that.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 28, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.
It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t.
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ß Î Ř T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Sep 28, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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I can spot a small man in a split second, and call him out. ... and if needs be - dick slap him into submission.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sep 29, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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Mr. Armstrong is doing a triathlon in San Diego this weekend.
Opinions vary.
Why does the treatment of O-ffenders vary so much?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 29, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
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granstar
Social climber
Irving, TX
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Sep 30, 2012 - 01:10am PT
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Hi Chief! Good to see you are still on here. This is first time I've been on in quite a while and was hoping to see some familiar faces. Hope you are well. Yeah such a sad story and know like most everyone else was hoping he did things the right way and was clean, but unfortunately doesn't look that way now. That is definitely a huge blow to cycling with so many of the other big names like Contador getting caught also. I would say my interest in watching or following has definitely dropped.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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I think it can only be good for racing and my interest hasn't dropped.
You can't clean up the sport by ignoring the problems.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Sep 30, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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On March 17th, 2009, LA returned from a training ride in the South of France to find a lab tech waiting for him to give samples for testing. Armstrong refused and had his bodyguards hold the guy outside of his house while he went inside to "take a shower".
He emerged from the house 20+ minutes later and gave the samples. By rule, the subject is not allowed to leave the testers sight before giving the samples. Failure to comply immediately is considered a failed test. Armstrong and his hired goons claimed afterwards the the tester "gave him permission" to shower. The tester claimed otherwise, and of course he would not have done such a thing. Why would he fail to follow his duties as put forth in his job description?
And what was LA doing? Getting clean urine catheterized into his bladder? Masking injections? Only he knows and he won't tell (the truth) anyway.
This tester was from the French anti-doping agency and after a little hemming and hawing the UCI declined to take action against LA. Little wonder the WADA doesn't trust them.
This is just one of the times that LA failed a test, putting the lie to "never tested positive". The tactic of just shouting your lie over and over, louder and louder only works on stupid people.
It strikes me that LA is like the Tea Party candidates to whom facts don't matter, and he appeals to roughly the same crowd. There is no use arguing with those who dont care about facts, Their "minds" are made up.
The thing I find most incredible about LA is that after giving himself cancer and getting a second chance he went right back to doping. How could he be that stupid? He got a miracle once, so now he must think it's his birthright.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
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nick d
Old news but true.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
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The article in the recent Bicycling Magazine really poses the critical question for those who care about the sport.
"Now What?"
You naive ones need to catch up.
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StevenStrong
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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I just went down to Santa Rose to ride in Levi's GrandFondo, my first time. It was an incredible event and the quality of the riders participating in the event was really amazing. There's a lot of good happening in cycling behind all the doping noise.
Steve
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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^^ Dee EE
++
but can't we have a 600 post thread on Indurain first?
Does anybody know how much is bet on the TDF, as compared to say, horse races where drugs are not and never have been used?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nick d...According to Tyler Hamilton , Lance was just rubbing one out in the shower while the testers impatiently waited outside...Old news...
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Old news...but still true.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Editor’s note: The following is an opinion piece submitted to VeloNews by former U.S. Postal Service rider Scott Mercier. Mercier retired from professional cycling in 1997 and in 2011 told VeloNews that a team doctor had offered him synthetic testosterone in the final year of his career. The UCI on Monday issued a press release defending its lawsuit against journalist Paul Kimmage, claiming that he “had made false accusations that defamed the UCI and its presidents, and which tarnished their integrity and reputation.”
The dethroning of the king, Lance Armstrong, by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency has given many hope that real change is possible for the sport of cycling. But the sport’s governing body, the UCI, led by the hapless Pat McQuaid and Hein Verbruggen, seems intent on continuing the charade. The entire world has come to accept that cycling has had a dark and sordid history with respect to doping, but the UCI refuses to acknowledge any responsibility. It is shameful that the UCI was not leading the effort to find the truth. Pat McQuaid, in particular, seems to get more desperate every time he utters a word.
His most recent action of suing journalist and renowned anti-doping crusader Paul Kimmage is just the latest example of an attempt to deny and cover up, rather than seek the truth. History suggests that the UCI did not provide protection for riders like Christophe Bassons and Filippo Simeoni, who chose to speak up and challenge the culture of doping. Rather, they were unceremoniously ushered out the door. It is time to invite athletes like them back to the sport to be a part of the solution. As a former rider for U.S. Postal, I would not have turned to the UCI for fear of the repercussions from the organization. Perhaps in my own small way I too contributed to the omerta in cycling.
The lack of comments by most of the peloton regarding the Armstrong saga suggest that the omerta is still alive and well and that the peloton is still ruled by fear. There is no small amount of irony in the fact that the sport is led today by a man who received a lifetime ban from Olympic competition for an act of willful deception and fraud by racing the Rapport Tour in apartheid South Africa during an international boycott. I also raced the Rapport Tour, but Nobel laureate Nelson Mandela was the head of state, not B.J. Vorster. Mr. Vorster was the head of the department of justice in South Africa when Nelson Mandela was sentenced to life in prison.
The UCI today appears to be governed in a similar manner as the apartheid regimes, ruled with oppression and fear. Many of today’s riders seem to be fearful of criticizing the UCI potentially and exposing themselves to repercussions.
Cycling has reached a tipping point. It is either going to be honest and open regarding its sordid history of doping and grow and thrive, or it will continue to deny and distract. The time has come for the doors of secrecy to be kicked open. It’s time for a revolution and the overthrow of the tyrannical leadership of McQuaid and Verbruggen. I urge the board members of the UCI to take control of the sport and start with a clean slate. This is the only way cycling can truly grow on a global scale.
FILED UNDER: Analysis TAGS: Hein Verbruggen / Pat McQuaid / Scott Mercier / UCI
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apparently there is no whistle blower clause when one signs a pro contract..?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Check out "Racing through the Dark" by David Millar as well. Cycling has a lot of work to do to shake the doping legacy.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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I have a pretty high threshold for bullsheeit toleration, but I'm beginning to hope this thread dies soon.
While on the topic:
What if Lance Armstrong, just came out and said "yeah, I did all that sheeit, so what"?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Ashenden: Armstrong may have been blood-doping at 2009 Tour de France
By: Cycling News Published: October 8, 15:50,
Biological passport entries suggest blood re-infusion during the race, scientist claims
An analysis of blood samples from the 2009 Tour de France, as reflected in Lance Armstrong's biological passport, indicates that Armstrong may have been blood doping during that first comeback year, Michael Ashenden has claimed.
Ashenden, who previously worked on the UCI's biological passport programme, told California Watch, an investigative journalism group, that “an analysis of blood samples drawn in 2009, contained in an earlier court filing, suggests that Armstrong was recklessly using banned doping methods,” the San Francisco Chronicle reported.
The passport entries show that the cyclist “produced fewer young blood cells than would be expected, Ashenden said. That suggests his system was adapting to the presence of an extra volume of blood that had been re-infused,” the report said.
The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) has issued a lifetime ban against Armstrong, and disqualified all his results going back to August 1998. As part of their evidence, USADA claimed that his blood value “was consistent with” blood doping.
According to California Watch, Ashenden said that the rider's blood should have become thinner during the three-week race, a natural result of the stress and strain of the race. But that did not happen, and his blood remained consistent.
“The absence of a natural decline in blood concentration during a three-week race is also consistent with blood doping,” Ashenden said.
Armstrong has consistently denied using any sort of doping, and his spokesman, attorney Mark Fabiani reiterated that theme.
The blood date is “no evidence at all,” he said, adding, “The rules are clear to everyone but USADA: You either pass a drug test, or you fail it. There is no in between. Lance Armstrong has passed every test ever given to him, including every test administered during the 2009 Tour de France.”
Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed
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WBraun
climber
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There is no in between. Lance Armstrong has passed every test ever given to him
There are people who can pass any lie detector machine test too.
But they are still lying.
They know how to "beat" the machine and the test.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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The above statement is a lie, LA has failed tests. I pointed out one such case upthread. He is using the GOP tactic of shouting the same lie over and over, louder all the time. That makes it true, right?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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I hope the Lance bitch gets a terminal saddle sore and ends up riding a recumbent the rest of his career...
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 10, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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Armstrong lawyer attacks pending USADA report
By: Jane Aubrey Cycling News Published: October 9, 23:32,
Questions the use of Big Tobacco lawyers in Agency's case
A lawyer for Lance Armstrong has renewed his attack on USADA for their case against his client, criticising the impending "reasoned decision" that is set to be handed to the UCI and WADA this week. In a lengthy letter sent on October 9 to William Bock, III, the General Counsel for USADA, Timothy Herman suggests that the agency's use of lawyers who have represented Big Tobacco is further evidence that its case is about more than perceived doping infringements, but more about Armstrong, a noted anti-tobacco advocate.
Herman continues to employ the same arguments shot down by the Texas district court judge Sam Sparks, questioning jurisdiction, procedure and motives, asking why USADA has singled out Armstrong for treatment it claims is different to any other athlete. Herman claims that USADA is not required to provide a reasoned decision to the UCI, "it is required to produce the complete file of evidence, not more allegations by USADA about what it says it could prove in a one-sided arbitration hearing," he wrote.
USADA's media relations manager Annie Skinner commented, “The rules require us to provide a reasoned decision in every case and we are happy to let the evidence speak for itself.”
Herman pointed to a bill that two U.S Congressman have introduced called the "Athlete Due Process Protection Act". The act aims to curb the alleged misappropriation of the taxpayer funds that prop up the Agency.
The bipartisan bill was introduced on September 21 by Wisconsin Republican representative Jim Sensenbrenner and Michigan Democrat John Conyers. In July, Congressman Sensenbrenner sent an open letter to the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) querying the $9 million dollars of taxpayer funding given to USADA.
The move was then followed by United States Senator John McCain backing the USADA investigation into Armstrong and his associates, saying that the Agency's rules and processes applied to all U.S. athletes "regardless of their public profile or success in sport."
The letter also strongly criticises USADA's choice of key witnesses, Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton.
"For example, USADA will no doubt accept the stories told by Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton as gospel, though they are both serial perjurers and have told diametrically contradictory stories under oath," Herman writes. "It is beyond reckless that USADA makes Landis a lynchpin of its case - he is a confessed perjurer, has admitted criminal fraud, has been convicted of criminal hacking, and has recently been sued successfully by the UCI for defamation.
"A Swiss Court has entered a judgment prohibiting Landis from repeating his false claims that UCI leaders corruptly protected Mr. Armstrong from a doping case - the very claims that USADA no doubt will publish again in direct and knowing contempt of the lawful Swiss Court order."
Attorneys for Landis stated that he was never informed of the proceedings and was unable to defend himself against the UCI's defamation charges.
The letter also goes so far as to suggest that USADA has manufactured evidence against Armstrong. It points to an impending "farce" with the release of the USADA report "written by USADA with the significant assistance of lawyers from one of Big Tobacco's favorite law firms at a time when Lance Armstrong is one of America's leading anti-tobacco advocates. While USADA can put lipstick on a pig, it still remains a pig."
In conclusion, Herman points to a 'call to arms' with the release of the USADA report, warning that public support is with Armstrong.
"As USADA ramps up its press leaks and press releases this week and then trots out what it has pressured and coerced from others, we know that fair minded people will see whatever USADA issues is far from a "reasoned decision" and is instead further evidence of the vendetta by USADA and its talebearers seeking publicity by targeting Mr. Armstrong, his business relations and the Lance Armstrong Foundation."
Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 10, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
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If you are following this go to http://www.cyclingnews.com/
The fur is flying and there is too much to post up. Some big current names getting suspended!
Is the USA road racing boom over?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 10, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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Leipheimer, Vande Velde, Zabriskie, Danielson, Barry and Hincapie suspended for six months
WTF? Bullsheeit. How do they differ from Lance Armstrong? If he finked on himself, could he get his sentence pleaded down to six months?]
Apparently so,
"I have personally talked with and heard these athletes' stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike. Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it."
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 10, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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A professional bike racer friend said , about 10 years ago , that most of the pro riders are doped ...How many US tax payer dollars have we spent to discover that these athletes are juiced up..? ...has it helped bring us out our recession...? When we talk about pork , USADA comes to mind...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 18, 2012 - 02:34am PT
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RJ, who knows the dollar value? Who knows how many kids are disappointed, along with yours truly, due to the fall of the leader?
You fall off, you get the bike straightened out and you continue the race. Like it was said, Lance could have just copped and gone on like the rest. He just said no, and so that's that.
Today's latest indicates this thread is going to continue the race.
He has stepped down from chairing the Livestrong Foundation.
He also got tossed by Nike. Can't get Tiger out of my mind.
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/cnbc/49446680/#49446680
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 18, 2012 - 03:51am PT
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Praying Not as Effective as Doping It in Tebow's Case.--Merced Post
On doping:
“The riders will play by whatever rules are there. The rules can be improved. Part of that is using science; power outputs, strain gauges. I don’t think we need to suspend people for using Rogaine; it’s the big, massive oxygen drugs we need to push out of the sport, so people can actually have a chance to win the race without having to dope themselves to the max.”
---Greg Lemond, ADD sufferer, 10/06/12
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/new/must-hear-greg-lemond-speaks-out-in-wide-ranging-interview-on-irish-radio_256161
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 18, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
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JUST HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED AND HOW OFTEN?
I would like some of those folks who have admitted to doping to post their doping regimens.
I would also like Lance Armstrong to do the same, if he ever gets around to admitting it.
I want to know how much, what type and how often the drugs or procedures were utilized.
Let's see some controlled studies of the physiological benefits (or lack thereof) which accrue from using these techniques.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Oct 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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who was the climber from the stonemaster era who was on the juice?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 20, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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^Thanks
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Oct 20, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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I wonder how badass these guys could've been if they had doped?
and then there's this guy. What do ya think, did he dope too?
and don't forget this 1-off wonder of the 84 games.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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I jucied.
I addmit it
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 20, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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I wonder if Pharmstrong (new one on me) has developed a case of Romnesia?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 21, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Armstrong's 2001 sample was suspect but not positive, says head of Lausanne lab
By: Cycling News Published: October 21,
Lance Armstrong provided a suspicious doping control at the 2001 Tour de Suisse but did not test positive for EPO, according to Martial Saugy, the director of the Lausanne laboratory which carried out the tests.
Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton both testified to the US Anti-Doping Agency that Armstrong had told them that he had tested positive in Switzerland in 2001 but that the UCI had covered up the result. The UCI has denied any such collusion.
Speaking to AFP, Saugy said that Armstrong did not test positive for EPO but his sample was one of the three from the race to be flagged as “suspect." As an "important competitor," Armstrong was called before the UCI to provide an explanation. Armstrong returned another such suspect sample at the Dauphiné Liberé in 2002, which was analysed by a different laboratory.
“There was no positive test on the Tour of Switzerland in 2001,” Saugy told AFP. “Armstrong had another suspect result during the 2002 Dauphiné Liberé. The politics of the UCI at that time, if there was such a result involving an important competitor, was to meet them and ask for an explanation. That was their approach to prevention.”
Saugy said that it was only in 2002 that he realised that Armstrong had been among the riders who had returned a suspect sample at the Tour de Suisse.
“The UCI said to me at the end of June 2002: 'we warned the rider for whom you had a suspect result in 2001, he gave another suspect return at another lab and he would like to know by which method it was tested,'” Saugy said. "The rider was Armstrong. It was then that I learned about it."
Saugy also noted that while Armstrong’s sample from the 2001 Tour de Suisse was suspicious, from a legal standpoint, it would be difficult for USADA to consider it as a positive test.
“There's no way today that this could be defended as a positive result, it's impossible," he said. "Since 2003, procedures oblige taking into account the risks of a false-positive which could verify that urine had not been affected by the physiology of the cyclist or degraded by bacteria.
"This was not done at the time and the urine no longer exists because the rules did not require keeping it."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 21, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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If its necessary to have an 'anti-doping' agency because all the top athletes are doping then the whole activity is doomed and so corrupted by money as to make policing it a futile and pointless affair. Why bother? Who cares? And it's just another reason why it's so unfortunate formal competition and money have come to climbing as a side 'benefit' of gyms.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 21, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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bears repeating and probably better than any side benefit of Jim Jones!
another case of the juice gone wrong
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apinguat
Trad climber
kingfield, me
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Oct 22, 2012 - 09:08am PT
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Don't get too excited. last time they left the name blank a year later it was back in there. he was the best of the dirty.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 22, 2012 - 09:35am PT
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Just wait for the movie... LA will be rolling in cash...
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Oct 22, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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All cycling has done is to make their own sport completely irrelevant. So, who won those 7 TDF's now anyway? What a f*#king joke.
Curt
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 22, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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Yeah, like any of the top 10 finisher's wasn't doping...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 22, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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Again, when all the top riders doped, the only conclusion of note that matters is we should not want our sport corrupted by money and sponsorship as the progression is both obvious or natural. Either that or all sports should say who gives a f*#k and let people do what they want because when sports need policing they long ago stopped being sport. Masturbatory handwringing over this sort of thing, while entertaining, is basically pointless.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Oct 22, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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Okay, Touche', its time to move camp over to Major League Baseball eh.............
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 22, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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This is all a steaming crock of bullshít unless Eddy Merckx is stripped of his five Tour wins...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 22, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
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Now that Lance is officially stripped of his tour wins , i have one more question...Why does hydrogen peroxide foam when poured onto a cut..?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 22, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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Does this mean I should return my 'livestrong' bracelet?
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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I am still impressed that he kicked the other doped riders ass for seven years.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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And ask for money back so now not only does Lance f*#k over cycling we can see the effects of a witch hunt come full circle and screw everyone at all levels.
lol
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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So where are all them folks here that were all over Lance being innocent and completely clean?
I don't recall anyone here saying they thought LA rode clean. Maybe I missed a post or two, but my feeling is that most folks posting to this thread assumed that Armstrong, and virtually everyone he competed against, rode dirty.
The big questions in most posters' minds have been
a) What happens to the races that he won?
b) What happens to all the other cheaters?
It's great to have proof that he doped, but what next? If he's stripped of his wins because he doped, what becomes of everybody else's wins? Do they all get a pass? That is, you (and others) seemed to have a huge boner for Lance Armstrong, but now that he's busted, and your boner has subsided, do you just roll over and go to sleep?
And what happens going forward? The money and prestige will still be at stake, so why do you believe that busting this one guy will change everything? Maybe Wiggins rode clean this year, but do you seriously believe that if an undetectable drug becomes available tomorrow that half the peloton won't jump on it?
I don't have any answers, and don't particularly care, because my rides will be just as much fun whether a bunch of dudes in lycra are doping or not.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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Didn't the Chief admit right here on this thread that he did doping himself?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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You guys are just spinning this in a way to get back at him (The Chief) because you don't like him.
Stupid ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 22, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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You guys are just spinning this in a way to get back at him (The Chief) because you don't like him.
Stupid ......
You're probably right Werner, but hey, The Chief was just spinning it his way because he doesn't like Lance Armstrong, so it's all just part of the eternal wheel of life.
Why are you spinning it your way?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 22, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Lance liked to spin also...He learned it from big mig and punished Ulrich on those long tour climbs...
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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The whole Armstrong thing is because he swindled millions of dollars on untruths, strong arm tactics, and fuking people over for personal and monetary gains.
It's not about the bike race which is secondary.
The Chief will stand his ground.
You're all stupid trying to fight him.
Ya all know he's a military vet, a fighter, and not a pussy.
Ya think he's just gonna roll over by a some guys on the internet talking sh!t at him?
Ain't gonna happen with guys like him.
Tough sh!t guys ...... :-)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 22, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
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GO WERNER!!! If you don't defend a fellow didactic then who will?
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Oct 22, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
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This is all a steaming crock of bullshít unless Eddy Merckx is stripped of his five Tour wins...
Exactly.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Oct 22, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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^^^^Yeah, baby!
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Oct 22, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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How many people did Lance save? Really? His foundation is for Cancer Awareness.
He gets money from his foundation and he got tax payer money from US Postal. How much of that money did he use to dope, to get other to dope and to intimidate and threaten those that were trying to stop doping.
I have no sympathy for Lance. He live by the sword and now...
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Mimi
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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Werner, The Chief remains a fuktard no matter how you classify him. LOL!
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Oct 22, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
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Simply put: He is the best ever. I only hope cycling will ever get someone who was as riveting and commanding to watch. Blank or not, seven titles will never be exceeded.
The determination and sheer power of will most likely will never be seen again in professional sports.
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Mimi
climber
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Oct 22, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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Ditto to both of youse.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
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Y'all gonna have to fill in the blanks, I crapped out about half way through. Just can't get into it. I am disappointed, but Lance Armstrong is no different from lotsa, lotsa folks.
Had he gone to arbitration, the entire lot would have gone public and his name would be shet.
By doing this, nothing becomes public that entails him.
By doing this, he saves face and saves all that testimony from folks the likes of Georgie and Levy (which most assuredly are on the list of characters to testify against him). That too may be a reason for throwing in the towel. To save them, his team mates, the agony of having to go public and tell the truth. In doing so, making the entire US Postal and Discovery Teams look like complete liars and cheat during all them years.
They came clean and faced the music.
Ali accepts lifetime ban from boxing for using the rope-a-dope.
If Lance didn't dope, hes the greatest cyclist EVER, because he beat all the others that doped like hell.
If Lance doped, hes still the greatest cyclist EVER, because everyone doped and he still beat them...
BTW, is LSD banned in cycling?
Armstrong is HUGE, he's a monster, bigger than anything around.
Good lawyers!
I fear unconstrained and overzealous law enforcement far more than I fear a single petty criminal.
Due process is a vital American principle that too many people don't comprehend.
Tom Head, Texas Judge: Obama Reelection Could Lead To 'Civil War and the Incarceration of Lance Armstrong,' I'm Ready To 'Take Up Arms'
Dealing with the USADA is almost the exact opposite. An accused athlete has about as much chance as a defendant before the Queen of Hearts. Off with his head, then let's have the trial.
What's chicken-sheeit in all this is that Armstrong played by the rules of the game and he won.
Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there, or was it someone else?
When all this is said and done, the books will be opened and many heads are going to roll. Some from the top down in the UCI and possibly in the WADA org.
If the goal is to "clean-up" the "sport", then why are so many admitted dopers granted immunity so that one guy gets nailed. This is no house cleaning, it's a sham.
LA is just another perfect example of the times.... arrogance of power, fame and money.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
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Everyone should read Landis's book.
Anyone who thinks a guy that rides a bike for a living is anything but a guy that rides a bike for a living is always going to end up disappointed.
Why is it every culture holds up sports figures as "heroes"? I've never understood why.
These guys train their asses off their entire lives. Then they're faced with the choice to dope and maybe... just maybe win... or not dope and have zero chance and just fade away. These races are still superhuman feats of endurance and pain regardless of what drugs they took or didn't take.
But at the end of the day, do I give a crap what Lance or any other sports person is sticking in their veins? Hell no!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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^I'd probably say yes. Coulda been geezing smack.
Doesn't make sense now that the original statement is gone.
Somebody will get it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 22, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
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^You knew her?
At least Mr. Armstrong and the many others who doped (who for some reason don't get the same airplay as Lance) are still alive, doing good for the world.
Just google "fink list good deeds"
Disclaimer: I don't approve of Armstrong's apparent doping, don't approve of all the others who are not being equally punished, and especially don't approve of the young woman on the toilet's choices in life (if they're real).
When you gonna call out for penalty and repentance for all of them, Chief?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 23, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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A fabualous example for all young kids in America that are in any kind of athletic competition to follow... Lance Armstrong.
Oh... the poor children. I forgot.
It's not Lance's responsibility to teach other people's children anything. That would be the parent's job to teach their children not to emulate guys who ride bikes or throw balls for a living.
Who's the chick on the toilet?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 23, 2012 - 12:20am PT
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Case closed.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Oct 23, 2012 - 08:39am PT
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The Chief, should everyone who used PEDs while racing be stripped of their titles?
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:01am PT
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Let me just put it this way,
When everybody is quick to condemn, to point fingers, and to crucify it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
My heritage comes from the Soviet Union, and while I did not experience it first hand (too young to remember) I know enough of my peoples history to recognize this bullshit when I see it.
Someone goes against the party line, they are condemned by their ex-colleagues, "unanimously" stripped of their titles, and then dragged through the media as a pariah. To claim that ANYONE else in the game is any less dishonest is complete bullsh#t, and this whole circus is engineered specifically to keep people from recognizing that fact.
Also, like most conservatives and military vets (although not all) The chief thinks that taking a hard line is a sign of strength. Which is always somewhat disconcerting to see.
In other words, I'm not defending Armstrong by condemning the whole sh#t-show. I think the whole circus including all the media coverage, is complete bullsh#t. However I do believe that the ethics of any sport, or subsection of a sport is up to the sport community to determine, not outside regulatory and government agencies. I think that at least on that fact, The Chief would agree with me.
I propose a US Ground Up Enforcement Agency to police our FA's.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:06am PT
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However I do believe that the ethics of any sport, or subsection of a sport is up to the sport community to determine, not outside regulatory and government agencies.
Yes, but I fail to see the connection to this thread, Armstrong and cycling.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:10am PT
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Yes, but I fail to see the connection to this thread, Armstrong and cycling.
The fact that USADA and every joker in the media is involved? The fact that blood doping was considered ok until the USADA (edit: under mandate from the IOC, sorry for the inaccuracy) stepped in (OH THINK OF THE CHILDREN) and banned it unilaterally? The fact that this whole fiasco is a crucifixion effort on the part of USADA
UCI can do as they wish, although they are trying to save face like everyone else, at least they are (in principle) the community-imposed regulatory body.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:32am PT
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What if you think it ok to do regardless of what anyone else is doing.
Now you are just passing judgment on the morality of others.
I also never mentioned anything about it being ok, just that the whole thing is a f*#king farce that reminds me of soviet political crucifixions. It doesn't mean the person isn't shady, the entire system is f*#king shady and putting faith in its integrity is misguided.
I said the same thing when Rod Blagojevich was being crucified in Illinois. You know from the unanimous vote that everyone of those shady f*#kers was guilty of doing the same thing.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:34am PT
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The fact that USADA and every joker in the media is involved? The fact that blood doping was considered ok until the USADA (edit: under mandate from the IOC, sorry for the inaccuracy) stepped in (OH THINK OF THE CHILDREN) and banned it unilaterally? The fact that this whole fiasco is a crucifixion effort on the part of USADA
UCI can do as they wish, although they are trying to save face like everyone else, at least they are (in principle) the community-imposed regulatory body.
It seems like you are US centric, that you don't understand how sports and doping control is organized and that you do not know that a lot of cycling participants all over the world wants a clean sport.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:38am PT
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Indeed lets throw around other folksy sayings like they actually mean anything
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
See! I can do it too!
Edit:
Accountability means jack sh#t when the agency enforcing integrity is corrupt as f*#k.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:49am PT
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Let me just put it this way
Stalin was a crazy, evil motherf*#ker who killed many of my people (including personal family members). When, after he died, he was condemned unilaterally by those who were complicit in his crimes, and yet they received nothing for their crimes and had the gal to parade themselves as victims. It doesn't make me feel any more sympathy for the dead dude and it only makes me feel more contempt for the system and the other people involved
This is what I'm trying to say. The whole thing is f*#ked.
Lance is responsible for his actions, I won't argue with that. But everyone, EVERYONE, else involved is using him to specifically AVOID personal responsibility, exactly what you are arguing for.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 10:03am PT
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"What about the other guy.... he did it too. How come you picking on me????"
Thats not what I'm saying, and the fact that you can't tell the difference in message is disconcerting.
Deliberate obtuseness and narrow-sightedness is not a sign of strength despite what you think, not that I would be able to convince you of that.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Oct 23, 2012 - 10:06am PT
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The Chief, should everyone who used PEDs while racing be stripped of their titles?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 23, 2012 - 10:13am PT
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LA got caught redhanded
technically, he didn't
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 23, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
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Cycling is just like business is just like Politics
Cycling shows the face of good clean family sport but behind the scenes everyone is competing as hard as possible, breaking the rules or pushing them as far as possible. The clean ones don't rise high enough to count
Business always shows a responsible face as well but employs every tactic to buy politicians to write rules in their favor even if it means polluting, outsources jobs without regard to the effect on local society, and if the business is prisons or military hardware or oil, then they advocate punishment, war and war for oil
Politics always talks about supporting freedom and democracy but behind the scenes it's war for oil and business, suppressing votes if it favors your party, and suppressing good policies if it can make the other party look bad.
People are greedy and taught to compete rather than cooperate, even if it's destructive.
Cycling is just a reflection of us all
Peace
Karl
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 23, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
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So "The Chief" spouts about "honor and integrity" while telling bald faced lies all over this thread.
Even his own foundation told him to leave, gracefully.
Really? Your statement is in direct contrast to the statements of the CEO of said foundation, who indicated it was Armstrong who broached the topic and initiated stepping down as Chairman to try ot avoid having the negative personal publicity adversely affect the Foundation. And you would have this special inside knowledge (that conflicts with accounts from both Armstrong who was the chairman as well as the CEO of the foundation) how exactly?
"Honor and integrity" indeed Chief, maybe you should learn what those words mean.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 23, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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I do not know how true or accurate this article is
http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/celebrity/money-lance-armstrong-lose-scandals/
How Much Money Will Lance Armstrong Lose From His Scandals?
By Brian Warner on October 22, 2012
It’s been a rough week for Lance Armstrong and the bad news doesn’t appear to be stopping any time soon. First, the US Anti Doping Agency found Armstrong guilty of operating “the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program” in cycling history. Following the USADA announcements that it had “overwhelming evidence” of his rampant steroid use, Lance started losing sponsors left and right. Not only does Lance stand to lose tens of millions in future endorsements but he will also likely be forced to pay back millions in prize money. But exactly how much money will Lance Armstrong lose from these steroid scandals?
In the wake of the USADA’s report Lance Armstrong was dropped by every single major sponsor including Nike, Annheuser-Busch, Radio Shack, Oakley and Trek Bicycle Corp. Armstrong also lost several lesser known endorsement deals and will unlikely be commanding six figure speaking engagements or appearance fees anytime soon. The loss of these endorsement deals are expected to cost Lance $30 million over the next few years alone.
In addition to losing out on endorsement dollars, this morning the International Cycling Union announced that they were stripping Lance of all seven of his Tour de France victories. This latest blow will likely mean that Lance will be required to pay back $4 million in prize money he earned for those victories. As if that wasn’t painful enough, with each Tour victory, Lance also received performance incentive bonuses from his US Postal Team. In total, Armstrong received $7.5 million between 2002 and and 2006 in bonuses which were paid out by a Texas based insurance company called SCA Promotions. SCA Promotions sued Armstrong back in 2005 over $5 million they refused to pay amid his steroid allegations. They ended up losing the lawsuit and had to pay the full $5 million plus another $2.5 million in damages.
So in the short term, Lance is likely going to have to pay back $12.5 million in bonuses and prize money. Plus he will lose a minimum of $30 million in short term endorsement dollars. But the real blow to Armstrong’s wallet will happen in the long run since his reputation as a champion and philanthropist has been decimated. It’s conceivable that over his lifetime, Lance Armstrong will lose hundreds of millions of dollars personally. Fortunately his net worth today is still hovering around $125 million, so he should be able to weather the storm and still have lots of dough. Just might not have very many friends to spend it with.
EDIT: but if it is relatively accurate, and he still has around $125m, then cheating does pay.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Oct 23, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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Yeah, information and raising money for research is terrible. I guess the answer is probably a lot more than you have.
Again Lances foundation does not raise money for cancer research it raises money for cancer awareness. Keep in mind that Lance is also the primary pulpit for that awareness so every time he mentions cancer that trip becomes a tax write off. Lance got paid very well and got many perks for being the head of that foundation.
It seems Lance and his minions want Lance to have a get out of jail free card because of his foundation. If that is the case do we starting freeing all criminals if they donate money to a cause?
What does a person have to donate to kill someone?
What does a person have to donate to stick a needle in some kids arm?
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Oct 23, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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Really? Your statement is in direct contrast to the statements of the CEO of said foundation, who indicated it was Armstrong who broached the topic and initiated stepping down as Chairman to try ot avoid having the negative personal publicity adversely affect the Foundation. And you would have this special inside knowledge (that conflicts with accounts from both Armstrong who was the chairman as well as the CEO of the foundation) how exactly?
Really?
Major sponsors pulling out daily and you think the board did not have anything to say? It was all Lance?
Really?.....
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Lance Armstrong accepts lifetime ban, loss of Tour de France
That's the original title of the thread.
It's now morphed in to flame war about "The Chief"
Typical stupid sh!t that goes on this site by typical stupid people .......
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 23, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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ElCap, do you have any experience in the corporate world? People there are ruthless behind closed doors, but always put on gentleman's spin for the public. So and so resigned for personal reasons or whatnot. The board throwing Lance out looks bad. But to go public with "He resigned without pressure" "for the good of the kids" is win win. The foundation looks good and Lance is left with a good (or less tarnished) image.
I wonder if Lance is liable for criminal prosecution. It seems clear he perjured himself (in the lawsuit with the insurance company for example).
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
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People are greedy and taught to compete rather than cooperate, even if it's destructive.
If your distant ancestors didn't compete violently then you and I would not be here now. Our human greed is what will keep the species around when the world is mostly uninhabitable. It is what got us here and is what will take us into space... maybe.
Unless you take the most religious standpoint on this, people are genetically inclined to be greedy. If you are religious then you can just say that God made us greedy. Either way, that is human nature and LA lost his 7 TDF wins because he was not greedy enough. Had he really wanted to win, he would have figured out how to not dope, not be accused of doping, or not get caught having doped. He had all of the abilities and skills to win 7 TDF titles except for the one that makes people more cautious when doping. He lacked the little extra bit of paranoia that could have kept all of this from happening.
People who are not greedy and don't have any paranoia get eaten by big animals that sneak up behind them while they are sitting around enjoying their philosophy of generosity and fairness.
Dave
P.S. of course some amount of cooperation is a good thing if you are part of a pack of animals that cannot survive as a loner. LA bought his supplies, bikes, clothes, food, etc., from others. Had be not been greedy and cooperated, he would have let someone else win the race because they probably needed it more than he did.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Did anyone suggest yet that he got cancer because he was screwing with the chemicals in his body? That would be adding insult to injury but the media often does that sort of thing.
Dave
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matisse
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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OK how many of you out there actually raced bikes at an elite level?
I've been involved in cycling first as an athlete, and then as a coach of elite cyclists and triathletes. The first conversation I have with an athlete is "I am absolutely not interested in helping you dope. "
should everyone who used PEDs while racing be stripped of their titles?
yes.
this is a good thing and long past time.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 23, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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OK how many of you out there actually raced bikes at an elite level?
I've been involved in cycling first as an athlete, and then as a coach of elite cyclists and triathletes. The first conversation I have with an athlete is "I am absolutely not interested in helping you dope. "
should everyone who used PEDs while racing be stripped of their titles?
yes.
this is a good thing and long past time.
Merckx? Who was busted at least once.
Anquetil? Who admitted to it back in the 50s and said most other cyclists were doing it, even back then.
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crasic
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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I guess the only difference between your story and lance's, Chief, is that everyone coming forward in this case has a vested interested in seeing him crucified, because then they can pull a Jimmy Swaggart, cry in front of the camera, "come clean", point to him and then move on with their lives without having all their titles stripped.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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Lance won seven times in a sport where corporate money drove all the top teams to dope and you think the problem is Lance and not the corporate money? That's just dumb as a stump.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
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Did anyone suggest yet that he got cancer because he was screwing with the chemicals in his body?
keep in mind that lance got cancer before he raced in the TdF
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
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When all the top athletes do it the message is undeniable - you either participate or you don't ride - and that's the effect of corporate money; it's a systemic poison that clearly made it not a choice of doping or not, but of riding at all or not. Get a grip, all the noise about Lance is strictly a forest-for-the-trees deal and takes the focus off the real problem.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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Yeah, now finally they'll clean up professional sports once and for all.
Do you really believe that? Even for a second?
The game just changes, the cheaters find another way to cheat, another way to game the system for awhile.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:25pm PT
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Rick, you are so f*#king smart.
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Degaine
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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The Chief wrote:
Then I got busted with "papers" in my rack locker during a monthly locker health and welfare search by the MAA's. I tried the "never popped pos on the pee test" defense when I went to Mast. The Skipper laughed at me then dealt me the sentence of accountability. Luckily, my LPO and Chief told him I was worth saving and to keep me in. That was the end of my dope smoking/popping days in the Navy.
Lesson quickly learned about accountability for my actions, regardless what everyone else is/was doing.
I fail to see any honor or integrity in the above. You apparently got busted on circumstantial evidence but never actually came clean and admitted what you actually smoked/consumed, and never would have if they hadn't found "papers" in your rack locker.
In any case, many (not all) have stated over and over and over and over again that Lance, Hamilton, Landis, etc., etc., etc., should all receive the same punishment for having committed the same offense. I fail to see how one being more of a celebrity than the others means that one deserves a more stringent sentence.
I also think that they should be going back and testing blood samples for the top 20 finishers of every TdF where they have an archive of blood samples, and then punish those who test positive.
Then they should talk to witness who can testify that sponsors (especially the main team sponsors like US Postal or Robobank, etc) were actively pushing riders to use.
This is just like in 1998 and the Festina/Virenque doping scandal - a lot of hubbub by punishing a supposedly big fish and hoping that everyone would look away and take the microscope off cycling for a while. By only going after Lance the same thing is going to happen - a lot of hubbub, catch and punish the recent hero, then hopefully the sensationalist media will look for blood elsewhere and leave cycling alone to manufacture another Lance-like hero.
Only idiots and chumps think this whole thing starts and stops with Lance.
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Degaine
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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The Chief wrote:
The System is purging itself.... finally.
No it isn't, it's scapegoating.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
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The only way for the sport to clean itself up would be to eliminate corporate sponsorship of teams and individuals and have the sport channel donations to fund each team equally with a fixed amount.
Anything else is window dressing and an acknowledgement they have no real interest in purging or cleaning. Purging the direct corporate money is the only thing that matters.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 23, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
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The clean ones don't rise high enough to count
Really, Karl? Cause Andy Hampsten won the Giro de Italia and he quit 7-11 rather than being forced to dope by his teammates, primarily Chris Carmichael.
I think all the dopers should be stripped of their titles so guys like Andy have a fair chance to win.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
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The Chief:
BTW: I did "acid" and smoked dope pretty regularly in my early years in the Navy. Everyone else was doing it so....
Not once did I ever pop positive on the piss test. Lucky I guess.
Then I got busted with "papers" in my rack locker during a monthly locker health and welfare search by the MAA's. I tried the "never popped pos on the pee test" defense when I went to Mast. The Skipper laughed at me then dealt me the sentence of accountability. Luckily, my LPO and Chief told him I was worth saving and to keep me in.
So you were "worth saving" and Lance Armstrong isn't?
You admit that you didn't confess or take accountability, so it can't be that.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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And Chief, has it occurred to you that people are defending Lance because they think you are an as#@&%e and just to watch you go into coniptions?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coniption
1. coniption - To get wicked mad pissed like a crazy guy on steroids who just stubbed his toe.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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Remember, I did this for a living in a far more intense and volatile arena.
Like summitpost.org?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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I agree with Werner, this thread has become a flame on The Chief.
Chief, are you worth over $100m because you took drugs when you were young in the Navy? Did you cheat to become a chief?
Lance Armstrong's 'pride' (anybody ever read Beowulf? And what pride can do?) will not allow him to admit cheating, even though all the circumstantial evidence appears to be against him.
He could also be stonewalling knowing that he may have to pay back some dough and the financial consequences.
But if indeed he is still worth millions - more than any of us (put together) I would hazard to guess - and some of you still want to 'protect' his reputation and claim a witch hunt, then by all means, write the guy asking him for a loan or donation for some climbing gear, or your mortgage/rent payment. Then see how your 'hero' replies.
If indeed, he still has millions squirriled away, he's laughing, at you, the sport, at the public. Sort of like some bankers.
Get a grip, the guy cheated, he made millions by doing it (it happens a lot in the financial world, and elsewhere) and he appears not to be remorseful.
As far as philanthropy, altruism and generosity are concerned, Al Capone gave a lot to local neighborhood people, and a certain tax-exile Irish billionaire, who made his initial money (and probably more) with a brown envelope, he is also charitable (good for the PR image and tax write-offs - and lets Billy Boy use his Grumman Gulfstream).
Let's face the unfortunate facts, crime (especially white collar) pays, cheating pays and these people don't care about any of us Supertopians.
Wake up.
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Degaine
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
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Hi Patrick
I hear what you are saying (or rather read what you are writing).
I have no need to defend Lance, nor care to. However, I don't think that he should be the only one to pay such a high price for a practice that is rampant among pro cyclists, and I do think that it is utterly ridiculous to treat Lance as some sort of outlier given that doping is a systemic problem in the sport of pro cycling.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK12708/
From NIH.gov
Holland-Frei Cancer Medicine. 6th edition.
Kufe DW, Pollock RE, Weichselbaum RR, et al., editors.
Hamilton (ON): BC Decker; 2003.
Epidemiology
An age-related incidence curve of testicular cancer reveals a bimodal distribution. The major peak occurs between ages 15 and 35 years, due almost exclusively to tumors of germ cell origin, which account for approximately 95% of all testicular cancer. Embryonal carcinoma represents the predominant histopathologic diagnosis up to the age of 35 years, after which seminoma is more common up to the age of 75 years. Overall, lymphoma is the most common testicular tumor in older adults.
The incidence of testicular cancer varies markedly based on geographic distribution. The incidence is highest in northern Europe and North America, and lowest in Asia and Africa.
There is also a striking influence of race, with the incidence among black and Hispanic males worldwide far less than that for their white counterparts.2,3 The rate of testicular cancer rises with increasing socioeconomic status,4 but even when stratified by this parameter, the racial differences persist, with blacks having a lower incidence than whites in each class.
Testicular cancer is increasing among young white males in the Scandinavian countries, the United Kingdom, and the United States. In Denmark, from 1945 to 1970, the age-adjusted incidence for testicular cancer nearly doubled to 6.4 per 100,000. During that period, the percentage of malignant neoplasms in the 15- to 34-year age range attributable to testicular cancer increased from 17% to 29%.5,6 A similar doubling in incidence in younger age groups in England and Wales over the same period was also observed.7,8 In the United States, from 1937 to 1976, the age-adjusted incidence for testicular cancer in white males rose from 2 to 3.8 per 100,000, whereas the rate for African American males remained constant at 0.9 per 100,000.7,9–11 Incidence rates have subsequently increased for both races. During the period from 1995 to 1999, incidence rates averaged 6.2 and 1.4 for whites and blacks, respectively.11a It is estimated that 7,500 cases of testicular cancer were diagnosed in the United States in 2002, with approximately 400 persons dying of the disease.12
Risk Factors
Cryptorchidism is the major identifiable risk factor associated with the development of testicular cancer, with a risk ratio variably reported between 2.5 and 14 in case-control studies.13–16 The location of the maldescended testicle appears to be an important cofactor in the subsequent development of cancer, because those patients with intraabdominal retention have a fourfold higher incidence of malignancy than do those with the testicle retained in the inguinal canal. For a number of reasons, it seems unlikely that maldescent, in and of itself, represents the initiating event in the development of germ cell tumors: only 10% of testicular tumors are associated with cryptorchidism; at least 25% of the malignancies in patients with cryptorchidism occur in the contralateral, normally descended testicle; prepubertal orchiopexy fails to prevent the subsequent development of malignancy in the undescended testicle,17 and first-degree male relatives of patients with testicular cancer exhibit an increased incidence of cryptorchidism, hydroceles, and inguinal hernias, as well as testicular cancer.18 These data suggest that some genetic predisposition and/or in utero environmental event may result in several genitourinary developmental abnormalities, including maldescent and germ cell neoplasia. Interestingly, an increase in the frequency of cryptorchidism has been observed and appears to parallel the timing and magnitude of the increase in incidence of testicular cancer.19
The use of exogenous estrogens during pregnancy in the mothers of testicular cancer patients has been analyzed by a number of investigators. Three case control studies show a relative risk of developing testicular cancer of 2.8 to 5.3. However, it is unlikely that exogenous steroids contribute to a major degree to the incidence of testicular cancer in the United States. Their lack of use in other endemic areas with rising incidence rates (Denmark) underscores their relatively minor (if any) role in the etiology of this disease. Other investigators report that males with dysplastic nevi may have a higher incidence of developing testicular cancer in comparison with the population as a whole.20
Patients with a history of unilateral testicular cancer are at risk for developing cancer in the other testicle. In a large Danish series, 2.7% of 2,338 patients developed a contralateral testicular tumor during the period of follow-up.21–25 Patients with nonseminoma had a higher overall relative risk of developing contralateral tumors than did those with seminoma. Investigators at the Royal Marsden Hospital reported a similar rate of 2.75% for developing contralateral tumors among 760 men in an interval as long as 15 years.26 These observations underscore the importance of continued follow-up after treatment.
By agreement with the publisher, this book is accessible by the search feature, but cannot be browsed.
Copyright © 2003, BC Decker Inc.
EDIT:
A petty officer is a non-commissioned officer in many navies and is given the NATO rank denotion OR-5. They are equal in rank to sergeant in the British Army and Royal Air Force. A petty officer is superior in rank to leading rate and subordinate to chief petty officer, in the case of the British armed forces.
The modern petty officer dates back to the Age of Sail. Petty officers rank between naval officers (both commissioned and warrant) and most enlisted sailors. These were men with some claim to officer rank, sufficient to distinguish them from ordinary ratings without raising them so high as the sea officers. Several were warrant officers, in the literal sense of being appointed by warrant, and like the warrant sea officers, their superiors, they were usually among the specialists of the ships's company.[1] The Oxford English Dictionary suggests the title derives from the Anglo-Norman and Middle French 'petit' meaning "of small size, small; little".[2]
Two of the petty officer's rates, midshipman and master's mate, were a superior petty officer with a more general authority, but they remained no more than ratings. However, it was quite possible for a warrant officer, such as the armourer, to be court-martialed for striking a midshipman as his superior officer. The reason why was both were regarded as future sea officers, with the all-important social distinction of the right to walk the quarterdeck.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 23, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
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Chief, are you worth over $100m because you took drugs when you were young in the Navy? Did you cheat to become a chief?
His title is Chief Petty Officer.
pet·ty/ˈpetē/
Adjective:
1. Of little importance; trivial.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 23, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
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If indeed, he still has millions squirriled away, he's laughing, at you, the sport, at the public. Sort of like some bankers.
It would be no surprise to learn that Armstrong is a Republican.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 23, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
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Well, podnuh, who the f*#k is being petty now, huh?
Belittle, B.O. Wulf, Bitches.
http://www.richardpettymotorsports.com/
Lance coulda been a contender. He coulda done as well as Richard.
He coulda been something more than an asterisk.
For all the good he's done, thank you, Lance.
For the rest, fess up, take it, and then come back and dish out the rest.
Just be honest. It's no crime.
And lay off the Chief. He's not the problem. I know he can take care of himself, but Cheese, let him breathe...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 23, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
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but Cheese, let him breathe...
Let me let another bomb out first! (beans were good this morning)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 23, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
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Why does a thread about a cyclist get so many posts on a climbing site? Dude was the best and took some illegal substances to be the best (like a lot of other cyclists who also took substances, but did not get caught).
He took a risk, got caught, and stripped from his titles.
Is it wrong that he got stripped of his titles? NO. Is it wrong that he lied? Yes. Did many others take illegal substances? Yes, many. And I hope they are punished too. Baseball went through this same garbage with Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire, Sami Sosa, and several other players involved. It is good to take a stand against the use of these substances. Or allow it all.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 23, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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It's ridiculous to say Lance is the only one that's being punished. Out of all the podium standers during Lance's reign, all but one have been caught and sanctioned over the years. Many seem to know this, but ignore it. He gamed the system to avoid his failed tests, so he double cheated.
As it turns out...Lance is almost the last one to get caught and punished. They should have started with the biggest fish, not finished up with him. Lance is a perfect example of our twisted world... lie, cheat, put millions in the bank, then get a slap on the wrist and walk away with more money than you will ever need. The lesson of Wall Street.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Oct 23, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
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The "System" is finally saying enough is enough and unfortunately for LA, he will be the example that they will use to implement the new standards of consequences that yes should have been practiced a longass time ago.
So it is OK for Merckyx to cheat and keep his titles because he's your hero. Armstrong bested your hero in Tour wins, so he must be taken down.
That's what this is all about, isn't it, The Chief?
Merckx has condemned doping but he tested positive three times...
The first time was in the 1969 Giro d'Italia...
Merckx was also found positive after winning the Giro di Lombardia in 1973...
Then he was caught after taking Stimul (pemoline) in the 1977 Flčche Wallonne...
In the 1990s, he became a friend of Lance Armstrong, and supported him when Armstrong was accused of drug use, stating he rather "believed what Lance told him than what appeared in newspapers". Dr. Michele Ferrari claimed that Merckx introduced him to Armstrong in 1995.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 23, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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His title is Chief Petty Officer.
pet·ty/ˈpetē/
Adjective:
1. Of little importance; trivial.
Or Chief Petty for short.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Oct 23, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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Neit!
They are all slime ball liars to be honest with ya.
All right then, Chief. It's a sad day all around for bike racing.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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Reportedly the first race was in 1868 on wooden bicycles and by 1886 doping was already an issue. If we are really serious why not
1. postpone all racing until a good method of surveillance has been achieved
2. destroy all records of past bike races
3. Define a standard bicycle for all racing and never allow it to be improved
Until then we all can watch Kim Kardashian on TV.
I consider this an uplifting proposal.
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MassiveD
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
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Sure Lance cheated, but so do the regulators. Their case is the regulatory equivalent of cheating, with stuff like claims by co-conspirators, and an endless prosecution that any defendant would have bailed on. I'm not required to believe Lance or his prosecutors, it is not just cyclists who are among the ranks of the professional cheat. Nothing has changed in the last few weeks. We all "knew" Lance cheated because cyclists do, and now we are in the final act where we are all allowed to state it, but there aren't any more facts out there.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 23, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
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More importantly, they NEVER LIED nor CHEATED!
Yea, they were perfect people that you personally observed from the skies above. Come on! Everyone lies at some point! Everyone does things they feel ashamed of (some more than others). No one is perfect. Those you mentioned included. Yes, they were pioneer climbers, but that doesn't mean they are saints. Books won't tell you their whole life.
I have one hero- my mother.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 24, 2012 - 12:26am PT
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This thread is pertaining to LA's professional accomplishments... or lack of as of a couple of days ago.
His professional accomplishments will always be there. He did ride the bike against the best dopers and non dopers of his day. They can change the record books but ultimately, he did the rides. (ok I'm starting to sound like Werner)
I think a lot miss that maybe Lance can't admit it. Remember the Fed's (the ones with prisons) were after him. If he admits it he could be in for some serious trouble.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 24, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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Chief you messed up my quote. I said Yes, they were pioneer climbers, but that doesn't mean they are saints. And you have no idea what they lied or cheated about. You did not hold their hand up every summit they claimed. You do not know every little detail about their ascents. Not accusing them of any wrong-doing, but who knows. No one but them. They did have good stories and books published about their lives (so I heard).
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Oct 24, 2012 - 01:15am PT
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the bigger question is why people idealize sports heros at all
i find it weird why they are lavished with praise and millions of dollars...
i find being a specatator to be distasteful...
the whole culture of watching others play games on tv baffles me
play your own damn games..
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Oct 24, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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I have one hero- my mother.
excellent. I see your sincerity Vitaly.
fwiw, I actually agree with the chief on the lance issue. lance is a cheat, no doubt about that.
as far as this thread becoming about the chief, well maybe. . . . . . .
if he wasn't so self righteous, and egotistical more people would respect him, but he was that way on summitpost too. it's just a character flaw. everybody has them. nobody is perfect, right chief?
oh, one other thing, the word hero is thrown around a lot. people who join the military know what they're getting into. doesn't make them a hero
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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Oct 24, 2012 - 02:28am PT
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Nobody has ever won da tour clean.
Read the USDA report, George even say lance used less blood than anyone on the team. Wtf.???
I remember in the 80s when everybody was on the stuff. Mostly oral or winstrol V with race horses on the bottle. I also remember the emaciated euros in Rifle in the late 80s using all types of drugs to climb 13& 14's.
Lets move on it really doesn't matter, paddle into big waves & see if drugs help you.
Aloha & be well
RG
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 24, 2012 - 02:35am PT
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the bigger question is why people idealize sports heros at all
+1
There are some random people I met along the way that I am impressed with (still won't call them a hero). For example a few month ago I met a woman, at work. Cancer survivor, but nobody outside her family/friends circle knows, or cares. As a big kayaker in the past, she passed on a quote her dad taught her- 'Life flows like water in a wild river, don't swim against it (flow with it)." One does not have to be a pro athlete or a bad ass climber to be wise. There are many regular people out there that are wise, and worthy of attention.
PS: Chief is not a bad person. He does say some things that are worthy of attention too. I don't think he minds giving or getting sh#t back. Have to hand it to him though, getting a cyclist thread to over 750 posts on a climbing forum is a HUGE accomplishment in itself. All hail the Petty Chief!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 24, 2012 - 04:14am PT
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/23/opinion/cashmore-time-to-allow-doping-in-sport/index.html?hpt=hp_c3
Editor's note: Ellis Cashmore is a professor of culture, media and sport at Staffordshire University in the UK, and the author of Making Sense of Sports.
(CNN) -- The Lance Armstrong case forces us to consider a philosophical problem that has tormented sport since 1988 when Ben Johnson was disqualified from the Olympics after testing positive for drugs.
Not 'How we can improve detection and make punishment serve as both deterrent and restitution,' but 'Should we allow athletes to use drugs?' My answer is yes.
Were we to treat athletes as mature adults capable of making informed decisions based on scientific information, we could permit the use of performance enhancing substances, monitor the results and make the whole process transparent.
Instead we continue to demonize those found guilty of doping violations, willing ourselves into ignorance.
Ellis Cashmore says the fight against doping in sport is misguided, and that athletes should be allowed to use drugs.
Athletes take unknown substances, procured from unknown sources and with uncertain results. Permitting the use of doping would rescue sport from this clandestine state, creating an environment that would be not only safer, but more congruent with the reality of professional sport in the 21st century.
Twenty-four years after the Johnson scandal, performance-enhancing drugs are as abundant as ever and, as the Armstrong experience reminds us, the testers remain embarrassingly behind the curve. Despite the major advances since 1988, several athletes have evaded detection not just for the odd competition, but for entire careers.
Before Armstrong, American sprinter Marion Jones was convicted and imprisoned, though, like Armstrong, she never returned a positive drug test (she was found guilty of impeding a Federal investigation). Nor did baseball's Barry Bonds, who was convicted on one count of misleading a grand jury investigating drug use by athletes in 2011.
No sensible observer of sport today denies the prevalence of drugs in practically every major sport, yet none would argue they can ever be eliminated completely. Money alone guarantees that much. The days of the gentleman-amateur have long gone: Athletes today are competing for high stakes, not just millions, but dozens of millions (Armstrong is worth about $70 million, according to Forbes).
In a culture that encourages the constant search for the limits of human achievement, we, the fans, the consumers of popular sports entertainment, revel in record-breaking, gravity-defying, barely believable feats on the field of play. Promoters, leagues, sponsors, advertisers and a miscellany of other interested parties dangle incentives.
Armstrong got rich thanks to the beneficence of people who didn't just back him but lauded, even lionized him as the greatest cyclist ever, and perhaps pound-for-pound one of the world's finest sportsmen. Small wonder he was motivated to gamble: a quick cost-benefit calculation would have told him the chances of detection were slight compared with the bounties available.
The objections are predictable:
This is cheating. In a technical sense, perhaps; but that could be fixed by changing the rules. In a moral sense, it is unfair on those competitors who do not wish to use drugs. The evidence of the Armstrong investigation suggests that many other cyclists were habitual dopers, anyway. We can't say the same for other sports, though we can remind competitors that among the array of performance enhancing aids which are available to them, such as acupuncture, hypnotism, hypoxic tents (that simulate high altitude) and the countless other perfectly legal performance enhancements are some that are probably more dangerous than drugs.
Taking drugs is wrong. Maybe, but how many of us get through a day without taking a pharmaceutical product, such as statins, antidepressants, painkillers and so on? By an accident of language we use the same term for these products and performance enhancing materials as we do for illicit drugs like crack cocaine and heroin. This misleads us into imagining related objections.
Mercier: 'U.S. Postal doping predates Armstrong'
There are too many dangers. Of course there are -- as the situation is now. By inviting athletes to declare with impunity what they are using, we encourage and open discourse and promote research so we'd be in a position to advise on the relative values and risks of different substances. This openness isn't possible while we continue to force drug-taking underground. Opening up sport in the way I'm advocating would render it a safer, more secure environment.
Sports stars are role models. Possibly. But they are not paragons of virtue, and even if they were, young people who follow them and organize their own naive ambitions around theirs will eventually run into the rock hard reality that drugs are to sport what Twitter is to celebrities -- not exactly essential, but a valuable resource when used strategically.
Fans would turn off sport. Ask yourself this: Did you feel a thrill when you saw the imperious Armstrong cross the line at the 2002 Tour de France seven minutes ahead of his nearest rival? Or when you watched Marion Jones surge to victory at the Olympic 100m final in 2000? At the time, we didn't realize they or, for that matter, any of their rivals had doped. And it didn't affect our enjoyment of their performances any more than if we'd known they were wearing aerodynamically designed clothing.
The argument in favour of permitting drugs in sport is not popular at a time when the world is busy annihilating Lance Armstrong. But it is rational, sound and in harmony with sport, not as it was in the days of "Chariots of Fire," but as it is in the twenty first century: Unrelenting, mercilessly competitive and unsparingly achievement-oriented.
Armstrong's legacy may survive
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 24, 2012 - 07:00am PT
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Hey Chief, I read about those two army blokes, now this is a very trivial matter, but sort of interesting they were both born in towns called Lincoln. Coincidence of course.
Vitaly M, I second that motion. My mother was my hero. My father died when I was five months old, I am the youngest, the others were 1-1/2, 5 and 12). My mom (who lost a daughter, a sister I never knew, to polio in 1953 aged 7) raised us all by her self (having a good profession as a dentist helped of course), and she gave us everything.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 24, 2012 - 09:48am PT
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Let them dope. It's not hurting anyone.
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/39997062/
The Forgotten Ones
The rightful destination of the seven yellow jerseys taken from Lance Armstrong on Monday will never be clear. In the absence of obviously dope-free Tour de France podium finishers from those years, they might as well go to the most shamefully forgotten people in this scandal. The jerseys can be draped, one apiece, over the graves of seven European cyclists who died young and mysteriously in 2003 and 2004.
The eldest was 35, the youngest 16. A couple of them were retired. Two died in their sleep, one in a race. One was a patient in a psychiatric hospital when he collapsed. Another had just left the dentist's office. All died within a 13-month span.
About 15 years earlier, around the time that the red cell-boosting drug EPO surfaced as a performance enhancer, there had been a similar wave of cyclists whose hearts stopped suddenly. Responsible doctors set off alarms, saying unsupervised use of the drug could thicken the blood to the point that it could no longer circulate through the body. A test to detect extraordinarily high red-blood-cell levels was developed. The deaths ebbed. In early 2004, alarms sounded again, set off this time by European journalists.
In the United States that year, as Armstrong prepped for the sixth of his seven Tour victories, nobody cared. He had beaten cancer and conquered the Alps. He was dating Sheryl Crow. The dead guys were nobodies.
The seventh cyclist, 21-year-old Johan Sermon of Belgium, died in his sleep just three days after U.S. prosecutors indicted four men, including Barry Bonds' personal trainer, on multiple counts of distributing performance-enhancing drugs. Two weeks later, I wrote a column in the San Francisco Chronicle questioning the federal government's relative apathy about the miraculous Armstrong, whose medical trainer had been indicted on doping charges in Italy, whose team was sponsored by the U.S. Postal Service and whose sport had a disturbing number of fatalities.
Armstrong's camp was livid. His agent, Bill Stapleton, called my sports editor, Glenn Schwarz, and demanded multiple corrections. One of them concerned the number of deaths. According to Glenn, Stapleton said that I should have counted only six mysterious fatalities because the body of Marco Pantani, the 1998 Tour de France champion found dead in an Italian hotel room, had revealed cocaine use.
Glenn told the agent that he and I had already discussed the number. The European papers had set the figure at eight. I had taken Pantani off the list. When Glenn and I talked later, I asked if Stapleton seemed to care about the deaths aside from the doubts they raised about the integrity of his star client's sport. No, Glenn said, he did not.
Messages left at Stapleton's office on Monday, seeking current comment from the agent, were not returned.
A few weeks later, Armstrong wrote a rebuttal essay that appeared in the Chronicle. He defended his sport’s drug tests. He praised, of all things, USADA – the organization that ultimately took him down. He never mentioned the seven dead guys.
He could have made a lot of points about them. When he wrote that his indicted trainer deserved the benefit of "innocent until proven guilty,'' Armstrong could have noted that I had, in effect, defiled the reputations of the dead cyclists by suggesting they had doped. He did not.
They were irrelevant to him. They were irrelevant to almost everyone.
The conventional wisdom among Armstrong's defenders holds that doping is a victimless crime and that only righteous prudes care about it. That wisdom is built on willful ignorance.
We have no idea how doping affects athletes, because we have no idea what they take, how much of it or for how long. They won't tell. Researchers won't run clinical trials because giving test subjects the amount of drugs believed to help performance would be unethical.
That “do no harm” credo is quite a nuisance.
So we rely on anecdotal evidence. Ben Johnson walks among us. Mark McGwire, now 49 and coaching with the Cardinals, looks hearty and very trim compared to his playing days. Barry Bonds, now 48, slimmed down even more after retirement. He took up cycling. And, of course, Armstrong – 16 years into his cancer recovery – is the very image of vigor.
But Armstrong's ex-teammate Tyler Hamilton has argued quite convincingly that different bodies cope differently with the drugs, and the wealthier an athlete, the more likely he is to get optimal treatment. Armstrong, according to the USADA report on cycling, paid more than $1 million to Michele Ferrari, the Italian doctor who oversaw his training, during their working relationship.
That kind of cash will buy not only premium performance, but probably better precautions. Poorer people trying to get ahead in a sport won't have that luxury.
The dilettante “Just Say Yes to Doping” crowd always seems to forget that health care is not distributed equitably. I once participated in a televised panel discussion with young athletes in the audience, posing questions. A slight football player from one of the most disadvantaged high schools in San Francisco implored the adults to remember athletes like him and protect his right to compete clean.
That kid knew what he was facing. If he took steroids or growth hormone and they hurt him, no one would help, or care, or even notice.
As Bonds awaited trial on perjury and obstruction charges, cyclist Tammy Thomas was convicted of similar offenses. Nobody paid attention. She was never a superstar. She had tested positive twice and been banned for life from cycling.
Pictures from Thomas's cycling career show a heavy-jawed, hirsute face – far more masculine than the one that appeared at the defendant's table for her trial. As the judge weighed whether to send Thomas to prison, her attorney argued for leniency partly on the grounds that she had medical conditions that required her to take as many as five psychotropic drugs.
If the apparent good health of McGwire and Bonds and Johnson is sufficient anecdotal evidence to support a libertarian approach to doping, do Thomas’ conditions act as counterweight? She isn't alone. The history of Tour de France champions is spotted with tales of self-destruction and de facto suicides.
About two years ago, three-time Tour winner Greg LeMond and his wife, Kathy, felt compelled to remind people why they opposed doping so adamantly. In an essay on Greg's blog titled “Doping and The Story of Those We Love,'” Kathy recalls a story she had told privately in the past, but has been reluctant to take public. In 1990, a call woke the couple in the middle of the night. The wife of Dutch cyclist Johannes Draaijer was sobbing. She had found him dead next to her in bed. An ambulance was on its way, but she knew it would be too late.
"He is cold,'' she kept saying to Kathy.
The LeMonds knew that Draaijer had been under pressure to use the latest pharmacology. His widow eventually told a magazine that he had used EPO and that she believed its blood-thickening properties caused his heart to stop.
Why don't we talk more, a lot more, about what happened to these people? We might learn that all the deaths were coincidental. We'd probably discover a lot of conflicting, confusing facts and half-truths. But at least we'd learn something of value. It beats obsessing over whether Armstrong should receive an asterisk or a DQ, and wondering who really won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 24, 2012 - 10:00am PT
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That was sarcasm, if you are referring to my post.
They should eradicate doping (maybe not possible), or get rid of pro cycling.
Too many kids pressured into taking drugs to compete.
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matisse
climber
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Oct 24, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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The post from Lloyd sums it up for me.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 24, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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So now that this is all out in the open and everyone hates performance inhancers, will Amgen continue to sponsor the ToC?
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dejavu75
Trad climber
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
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Here's what Levi Leipheimer had to say about legalizing doping:
That brings up a good point. I was just in Atlanta Sunday at a symposium with some of the top scientists in anti-doping from across the world. They wanted to hear my personal experiences and opinions on how to improve the testing. Create a clean sport. One of the questions was: We hear a lot from people who say we should legalize all kinds of doping and be a free-for-all. If that had been done that at any point from when I was 13 years old to now it would have been an easy decision to stop. Because that just scares the hell out of me. I don't want to be part of the sport that is a free-for-all. I would have left the sport. No question. That's not worth it. For sure there would be individuals out there for whatever reason, probably mostly because they didn't know better, they would go to the brink of death.
The full interview is here. Read the previous couple of pages, about him describing how he felt as a kid being pressured to dope. F*#k everything about that.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 24, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Lets move on it really doesn't matter, paddle into big waves & see if drugs help you.
sometimes they do.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 24, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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The only part of this whole thing that really bugs me is the involvement of the US government. Not one single cent should be spent on investigating or prosecuting guys who ride bikes or throw balls for a living.
I remember back in the baseball nonsense when CONGRESS was interviewing the players... WTF???!!!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Oct 24, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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So who won all of those tours. Oh yeah no body cares anymore. As far as I am concerned professional sports are all bullsh*t and the money leads all of them to cheat. If you like doing something then do it. Don't do something because you want to emulate someone else.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 24, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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Sure, most people at the pinnacle of competitive sport ARE arrogant d-bags. And yeah, you can single out counter examples, but it's kind of an "exception that proves the rule" situation.
It's funny though, because as I recall it during his prime LA had a reputation as a pretty gracious fellow with respect to fans, kids, and the press. Which is pretty amazing considering how mobbed he was and that everyone wanted a piece of him. That he was a taskmaster, intimidator, a-hole, etc to those within the game...is that really surprising to people?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 24, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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My only true REAL heros tied into a rope...
Clyde
Cassin
Bonatti
Whillans
Kor
Batso
Each in their own ways were honest, fking nuts and focused to the hilt.
More importantly, they NEVER LIED nor CHEATED!
So you think that if we were all sitting around a campfire and a good friend passed out some free dope, not ONE of them would accept any?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 24, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Sure, most people at the pinnacle of competitive sport ARE arrogant d-bags.
So why do people think they are heroes? Being an arrogant d-bag who walks all over other people to get ahead is just as bad as doping. Of course if you're going to walk over other people to get ahead, then you probably won't draw the line at doping either.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 24, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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So why do people think they are heroes?
Because they can do things those people putting them on a pedestal can't do, things that the fans can vaugely relate to enough to realize how impressive the accomplishment is.
I'm sure plenty of the original astronauts were cocky d-bags too, but I don't really care about their personality aside from the brass balls bravery to strap a rocket to your ass and ride a tin can off the planet...they're all heroes to me, d-bag or not.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Oct 24, 2012 - 07:27pm PT
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This will be my only post in this very important thread
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:13am PT
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Six months seems like an adequate penalty - no?
George "William Zantzinger" Hincapie
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 25, 2012 - 11:50am PT
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Are there any Americans left standing?
Exclusive: Bobby Julich doping confession
By: Bobby Julich Published: October 25, 16:31,
American apologies, Sky releases him
On Thursday Team Sky released Bobby Julich from the team after he disclosed to them that he'd taken performance enhancing drugs during a period of his racing career. Below is Julich's confession that was exclusively sent to Cyclingnews.com
Dear Team Sky, family, friends, fans, and supporters of cycling,
I would like to preface this statement, by saying that whilst I don't expect all of you to believe some of the things that I am about to say, I don't want to insult anyone’s intelligence any longer and deny that I have never had anything to do with the shady past of professional cycling. This statement is about me and the decisions that I have made in the past.
I have recently made a full confession to Team Sky senior management about my doping history and understand that by doing so I will no longer be able to work for a dream team performing my dream job. I also understand that by doing this, I will have to face some more important consequences in the real world and with the people that matter the most to me.
I knew before I headed to our team meeting in London last week that we would all be asked about our past. I knew that this was going to be a pivotal point in my life and I decided to come clean not only to Team Sky but also to the sport and people that I love.
Lately, much has been said about purging the past before being able to rebuild and finally putting these dark days behind us. If we are going to purge, then we should do it for the right reasons. I hope we can learn from the past and look toward the present and future generations so that they will not have to confront the same issues.
I made the decision to use EPO several times from August 1996 until July of 1998. Those days were very different from today, but it was not a decision that I reached easily. I knew that it was wrong, but over those two years, the attitude surrounding the use of EPO in the peloton was so casual and accepted that I personally lost perspective of the gravity of the situation.
During the 1998 Tour, my fiancé (now wife) found out what was going on from another rider's wife. She confronted me on it and it was one of the most dreadful experiences of my life. She was never a part of this and I put her in a very difficult situation. She told me right then and there that if it ever happened again, our relationship would be over. That was motivation enough and I knew I had to stop.
The Festina Affair changed everything for me. It reaffirmed for me that this was not only wrong and bad for my health, but also illegal with heavy consequences. In a strange way, I was relieved that the Festina Affair happened and was personally convinced doping would stop and that this problem would be over. I quickly realised how wrong I was.
From that moment on, I tried to shield young riders from the temptations that were out there. The following years my own resolve with doping may have wavered but it did not break. There were times that I was tempted to return to the dark side, but after some difficult years, I stopped thinking about what others were doing and focused on my own performance and enjoyment in the sport. Most importantly, I proved to myself that it is possible to compete clean and I came back with solid, clean results that I am extremely proud of.
My return to the top level of the sport coincided with signing at Team CSC in 2004 and I want to briefly explain my side of the story. I know that much has been said about what allegedly happened there and about the man that is the figure head of that team. I am not going to defend him as a person but rather as an organisation and what it did for me personally.
This organisation gave me two things that no illegal substance could ever truly provide. It gave me back my self-respect and my self-confidence. That was all that I needed to perform at the highest level. This was my personal experience. At no time was I offered or did I receive any sort of blood manipulation nor did I witness any systematic doping within the team. I found that I could compete without it and my results during that period were achieved clean. That being said, what happened before the 2006 Tour de France changed my outlook into what we all thought we were buying into when we joined that team.
When I began working for Team Sky in 2011, the real selling point for me was their clear commitment to running a clean team and I wanted to be a part of it. I hope that everyone understands that this team is special. Dave Brailsford had never competed in the sport at the highest level, and he set out to do things differently. I am extremely honored to have been a member of this team and a small part of the success that they achieved during this period.
I apologise to everyone, especially those associated with Team Sky for my past indiscretions. I made some poor decisions and have paid and will pay a huge price. I am taking responsibility, at the expense of not being able to finish what I started, with some of the best people that I have ever been associated with.
To this new generation of young riders; I hope that you will learn from the past and avoid the mistakes many of us have made. It is up to your generation to insure that the issues of the past do not affect your future. I am truly sorry that you all are dealing with something that you had no part in creating.
I know I cannot change my past, however, I do wish to remain in the sport of cycling in some capacity. I love it with all my heart and I hope that even though I made some poor decisions a long time ago, that I can continue to help contribute to the positive changes in this sport. I believe that it is a sport worth saving.
Bobby Julich
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Just see.
This is why they go after the big one.
The one (Armstrong) who's "never ever doped" rolls eyes.
Now all the other fish are coming out of the wood works.
Without Armstrong this "doping" thing would still only be an inside knowledge.
Thus Armstrong is still "king" ....... :-)
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Oct 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
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For cycling I've always thought Lemond's story was the best. Recovering from a shotgun blast and then winning by a few seconds for the closest margin in tour history in '89. I suppose it's possible he doped too.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
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Jaysus Chief lighten up. I'm on your side. When I said it was a trivial matter, all I meant was that it was just sort of a coincidence that both dudes were born in towns the same name. Lighten up.
But if you indeed want to carry it farther...
And the one father, when collecting his son's medal, railed personally against Clinton, I would think that would have been in very poor, indeed, bad, taste. He could have vented his spleen elsewhere, instead of sullying the occasion.
And I would still think the same if it happened to any president, including Dubya. It should be a solemn occasion, but this father felt the need to make some sort of personal statement. In my eyes, and perhaps only mine, he dishonored his late son. There are other channels he could have taken.
But again Chief, lighten up (and no, to pre-empt you, I never lost a son in conflict, but I think that I would have the decorum to honor such a medal ceremony without trying to make an inane statement to the POTUS.) However, perhaps this father felt the need to do it. Bad taste and judgment IMO.
And considering how it seems you misunderstand my posts, I await a blast of... from you.
And no I have never served in the services. A strike against me in your eyes I suppose.
(NB How about a volunteer EMT on SARs, does that give me any credence in your eyes? I don't think so. It seems, and I could be wrong, that if one has not worn an US military uniform, that one is not worthy to comment on such issues).
If you really think so Chief. Sad.
(But I hope you don't think such.)
PS, as I said, I am on your side with the LA issue, don't turn me against you.
Ooops, am I being to self-sensitive with this one???
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 25, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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I think it's cute that people think LeMond didn't dope. The guy was getting dropped in the mountains (even by the sprinters!!!) in the 89 Giro, rode a horrible time trial, then suddenly got some shots for "anemia" and "B12" and roared back to a podium finish.
I remember someone else who got dropped on a hard climb and miraculously came roaring back the next day to dominate...a testosterone patched Floyd Landis in the TDF.
LeMond saw not only his stature as THE american road bike guy get diminished as Lance began his reign, but he also saw his name disappear from the gear (IIRC, LeMond bikes was bought by Trek, who then all but dropped any mention of LeMond because his name no longer sold bikes). If anyone has an axe to grind...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Again, why does it matter if LA is a D-bag or not? Does it matter if he's a good father or husband to any of you? Who gives a crap if he "cheated" or not except the other riders who might not have cheated(seems unlikely)? Who cares if he lies about taking drugs? It shows a lack of moral character? Sure... But again so what?
He's a guy that still rides a bike faster than any of us here. That's it. Entertainment.
You want to look at elitist morally corrupt pricks that really do hurt everyone with their actions, look at politicians anywhere.
So why some seem really upset about LA's drug use simply confounds me.
Calling for him to be arrested and imprisoned(or worse) just baffles me....
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
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From a forum on...
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/paul-kimmage-defense-fund
Just ask Emma O'Reilly, a masseuse on the US Postal Service team when Armstrong was leader. She had a front-row seat and saw how he and the team operated. She used make-up to cover-up Armstrong's syringe bruises. She helped ferry drug packages and delivered them in person to Armstrong. At one point, he turned to her and said: "Now, Emma, you know enough to bring me down."
A few years later, O'Reilly contributed to a book in which she recounted what she had seen. Armstrong's legal team went into overdrive. They brought her to court. Armstrong publicly called her "an alcoholic and a prostitute". They silenced her. As she said: "Lance tried to make my life a living hell. There was intimidation, bullying and stress."
Taco Standers, I do not know if there is truth to this, and perhaps then I should not be posting/repeating it... but it sort of rings true.
I posted earlier (much earlier) on this thread that Kimmage was bullied by Armstrong (something like "you are not worth the chair you are sitting in"), and I still believe it.
Armstrong comes across, to me at least, as a bully and egotist.
And he still has far more money hidden away (from his cheating, it appears) than all of us Taco Standers put together.
And some of you idolize this guy?
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Oct 25, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
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Elcap, don't you think if your accusations re: Greg Lemond held any weight, then USADA would be after him with the same relentless ferocity they applied to LA and US Postal?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:31pm PT
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Open Letter to Pat McQuaid from Greg LeMond
Thu, 10/25/2012 - 2:31am by Andy Shen
Greg LeMond posted this to his Facebook timeline this evening. Please pass it around. If you have a blog or a site take the copy and post it.
Can anyone help me out? I know this sounds kind of lame but I am not well versed in social marketing. I would like to send a message to everyone that really loves cycling. I do not use twitter and do not have an organized way of getting some of my own "rage" out. I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign. I have never seen such an abuse of power in cycling's history- resign Pat if you love cycling. Resign even if you hate the sport.
Pat McQuaid, you know damn well what has been going on in cycling, and if you want to deny it, then even more reasons why those who love cycling need to demand that you resign.
I have a file with what I believe is well documented proof that will exonerate Paul.
Pat in my opinion you and Hein are the corrupt part of the sport. I do not want to include everyone at the UCI because I believe that there are many, maybe most that work at the UCI that are dedicated to cycling, they do it out of the love of the sport, but you and your buddy Hein have destroyed the sport.
Pat, I thought you loved cycling? At one time you did and if you did love cycling please dig deep inside and remember that part of your life- allow cycling to grow and flourish- please! It is time to walk away. Walk away if you love cycling.
As a reminder I just want to point out that recently you accused me of being the cause of USADA's investigation against Lance Armstrong. Why would you be inclined to go straight to me as the "cause"? Why shoot the messenger every time?
Every time you do this I get more and more entrenched. I was in your country over the last two weeks and I asked someone that knows you if you were someone that could be rehabilitated. His answer was very quick and it was not good for you. No was the answer, no, no , no!
The problem for sport is not drugs but corruption. You are the epitome of the word corruption.
You can read all about Webster's definition of corruption. If you want I can re-post my attorney's response to your letter where you threaten to sue me for calling the UCI corrupt. FYI I want to officially reiterate to you and Hein that in my opinion the two of your represent the essence of corruption.
I would encourage anyone that loves cycling to donate and support Paul in his fight against the Pat and Hein and the UCI. Skip lunch and donate the amount that you would have spent towards that Sunday buffet towards changing the sport of cycling.
I donated money for Paul's defense, and I am willing to donate a lot more, but I would like to use it to lobby for dramatic change in cycling. The sport does not need Pat McQuaid or Hein Verbruggen- if this sport is going to change it is now. Not next year, not down the road, now! Now or never!
People that really care about cycling have the power to change cycling- change it now by voicing your thought and donating money towards Paul Kimmage's defense, (Paul, I want to encourage you to not spend the money that has been donated to your defense fund on defending yourself in Switzerland. In my case, a USA citizen, I could care less if I lost the UCI's bogus lawsuit. Use the money to lobby for real change).
If people really want to clean the sport of cycling up all you have to do is put your money where your mouth is.
Don't buy a USA Cycling license. Give up racing for a year, just long enough to put the UCI and USA cycling out of business. We can then start from scratch and let the real lovers in cycling direct where and how the sport of cycling will go.
Please make a difference.
Greg
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Again, why does it matter if LA is a D-bag or not? Does it matter if he's a good father or husband to any of you? Who gives a crap if he "cheated" or not except the other riders who might not have cheated(seems unlikely)? Who cares if he lies about taking drugs? It shows a lack of moral character? Sure... But again so what?
He's a guy that still rides a bike faster than any of us here. That's it. Entertainment.
You want to look at elitist morally corrupt pricks that really do hurt everyone with their actions, look at politicians anywhere.
So why some seem really upset about LA's drug use simply confounds me.
Why care if anyone cheats?
Why have any laws or rules at all?
Seriously? Are you on crack?
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apinguat
Trad climber
kingfield, me
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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Exactly Patrick. The Chiefton is all Lance, Lance, Lance, turns out even his poster boy says it's bigger then Lance. Here is a letter from Lemond.
Open Letter to Pat McQuaid from Greg LeMond
October 24 update: Can anyone help me out? I know this sounds kind of lame but I am not well versed in social marketing. I would like to send a message to everyone that really loves cycling. I do not use twitter and do not have an organized way of getting some of my own "rage" out. I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign. I have never seen such an abuse of power in cycling's history- resign Pat if you love cycling. Resign even if you hate the sport....
http://www.steephill.tv/2012/usada-lance-armstrong-doping-case/greg-lemond-open-letter.html
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 25, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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I posted earlier (much earlier) on this thread that Kimmage was bullied by Armstrong (something like "you are not worth the chair you are sitting in"), and I still believe it.
There is video of this showing Armstrong saying it and why he is saying it.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Armstrong:
When I decided to come back, for what I think is a very noble reason, you said: Folks, the cancer has been in remission for four years, but our cancer has now returned - meaning me.
I don't care how much you hate Armstrong, you don't call a cancer survivor a "cancer".
So I think it goes without saying, no, we're not going to sit down and do an interview. You are not worth the chair that you're sitting on with a statement like that.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 25, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
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Why care if anyone cheats?
Why have any laws or rules at all?
Seriously? Are you on crack?
Not what I said. Not anyone... LA.
Seriously, he rides a bicycle for money and fame. How that qualifies for hero status or any kind of role model escapes me.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
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That's the problem with heavily funded sports and the whole industry really. It's way off base. Tons of sports shows analyzing every aspect of what amount to very trivial matters. So, it's no surprise that hyperbole like the hateful example above is so rampant.
That's what I love about climbing
Three words: Wings of Steel.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
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Graniteclimber:
You really think that sanctimonious evasive drivel from Armstrong is impressive?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 25, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
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Graniteclimber:
You really think that sanctimonious evasive drivel from Armstrong is impressive?
Are you confusing me with anyone else, when did I say that Armstrong said anything impressive?
When someone's a cancer survivor, and you, knowing that, cal them a murder, you can expect they are going to be nasty about it. That's like calling someone's mother a whore.
Lance's response was a very predictable and unimpressive.
What would have been impressive is if he had been able to respond graciously.
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Jaytee
Trad climber
U.K.
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Oct 25, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
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Graniteclimber:
Sorry, but I don't understand your reply. Paul Kimmage made no such statement (re: cancer) in the clip you posted. Lance evaded his question and tried to bully him in front of a partisan audience by appealing to utterly unrelated issues. Open your eyes.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Oct 25, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
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Paul Kimmage made no such statement (re: cancer) in the clip you posted.
Jaytee, did your Mom drop you on your head when you were a baby? The video shows LA answering Kimmage's question and puts the"you're not worth the chair you sit on" soundbite in context. If you watched the video, you would see that LA was responding to statement made earlier.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 25, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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so chief is arragant, but a patriot. LA is the greatest biker on drugs ever, but a cheating as#@&%e. and bike racing is screwed.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 26, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
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Sorry, but I don't understand your reply. Paul Kimmage made no such statement (re: cancer) in the clip you posted. Lance evaded his question and tried to bully him in front of a partisan audience by appealing to utterly unrelated issues. Open your eyes.
Tyler writes in his book about learning this from Lance.
When someone questions you, immediately attack!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 27, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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Hormonal Responses to Whole Body Vibration in Men
C. Bosco, et al.
This study, conducted at Rome University and published in the European Journal of Applied Physiology (1999) measure whole body vibration’s effect on the production of key hormones testosterone, human growth hormone (HGH) and cortisol. The study consisted of performing jumping and mechanical testing together with EMG analysis of leg extensor muscles as well as blood data collection before and immediately following 10-minute sessions of whole body vibration treatment. The group experienced substantial increases in the production of testosterone and HGH, while also llustrating equally substantial decreases in production of the inhibiting hormone cortisol.
Cortisol down 32% (catabolic)
HGH up 361% (anabolic)
Testosterone up 7% (anabolic)
Doping isn't required.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 27, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
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Zbrown...Thanks for the article...I'm going to buy one of those vibrating adult toys and sack up...RJ
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Oct 27, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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You can do just about anything on those puppies. Hormones will be a flowing. I am not sure what the impact of having a 361% increase in HGH will do for/to you.
If Lance was smart, he'd come clean, apologize, get his sentence commuted and recruit a bunch vibrator riding studs, and then take back France for America.
Even dance on 'em, if you have a pardner
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 27, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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Graniteclimber, Kimmage made a very direct question and LA shot him down, wrongly. If you cannot see through your haze of love for LA, then I feel sorry for you. LA is a bully. Period. Full stop.
Take off the rose-tinted glasses, step outside and smell the air.
BTW Graniteclimber, this is not an attack on you personally, as I am not into flaming anybody. But I suppose I see that Kimmage/Armstrong interaction differently than you do.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 27, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
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From now on, to have a level playing field in professional racing, this bike should be the only one used
From The Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1015/breaking20.html
Cardboard bicycle 'could change world'
Israeli inventor and cycling enthusiast Izhar Gafni with a bicycle, made almost entirely of cardboard, which he believes has the potential to change transportation habits across the world. Photograph: Baz Ratner/Reuters
A bicycle made almost entirely of cardboard has the potential to change transportation habits from the world's most congested cities to the poorest reaches of Africa, its Israeli inventor says.
Izhar Gafni (50), is an expert in designing automated mass-production lines. He is an amateur cycling enthusiast who for years toyed with an idea of making a bicycle from cardboard.
He said during a recent demonstration that after much trial and error, his latest prototype had proven itself and mass production will begin in a few months. The bike is expected to retail at about $20 (€15.43).
"I was always fascinated by applying unconventional technologies to materials and I did this on several occasions. But this was the culmination of a few things that came together. I worked for four years to cancel out the corrugated cardboard's weak structural points," Mr Gafni said.
"Making a cardboard box is easy and it can be very strong and durable, but to make a bicycle was extremely difficult and I had to find the right way to fold the cardboard in several different directions. It took a year and a half, with lots of testing and failure until I got it right," he said.
Cardboard has rarely been considered as raw material for products usually made of much stronger materials, such as metal.
Once the shape has been formed and cut, the cardboard is treated with a secret concoction of organic materials to give it its waterproof and fireproof qualities. In the final stage, it is coated with lacquer paint for appearance.
In testing the durability of the treated cardboard, Mr Gafni said he immersed a cross-section in a water tank for several months and it retained all its hardened characteristics.
Once ready for production, the bicycle will include no metal parts - even the brake mechanism and the wheel and pedal bearings will be made of recycled substances, although Mr Gafni said he could not yet reveal those details due to pending patent issues.
"I'm repeatedly surprised at just how strong this material is, it is amazing. Once we are ready to go to production, the bike will have no metal parts at all," Mr Gafni said.
The inventor's workshop, a ramshackle garden shed, is crammed with tools and bicycle parts and cardboard is strewn everywhere.
One of his first models was a pushbike he made as a toy for his young daughter, which she is still using months later.
Mr Gafni owns several top-of-the-range bicycles which he said are worth thousands of dollars each, but when his own creation reaches mass production, it should cost no more than about $20 to buy.
The cost of materials used are estimated at $9 per unit.
"When we started, a year and a half or two years ago, people laughed at us, but now we are getting at least a dozen emails every day asking where they can buy such a bicycle - so this really makes me hopeful that we will succeed," he said.
A ride of the prototype was quite stiff, but generally no different to other ordinary basic bikes.
Nimrod Elmish, Mr Gafni's business partner, said cardboard and other recycled materials could bring a major change in current production norms because grants and rebates would only be given for local production and there would be no financial benefits by making bicycles in cheap labour markets.
"This is a real game-changer. It changes ... the way products are manufactured and shipped, it causes factories to be built everywhere instead of moving production to cheaper labour markets, everything that we have known in the production world can change," he said.
Mr Elmish said the cardboard bikes would be made on largely automated production lines and would be supplemented by a workforce comprising pensioners and the disabled.
He said that apart from the social benefits this would provide for all concerned, it would also garner government grants for the manufacturers.
Mr Elmish said the business model they had created meant that rebates for using "green" materials would entirely cancel out production costs and this could allow for bicycles to be given away for free in poor countries.
Producers would reap financial rewards from advertisements such as from multinational companies who would pay for their logo to be part of the frame, he explained.
"Because you get a lot of government grants, it brings down the production costs to zero, so the bicycles can be given away for free.
We are copying a business model from the high-tech world where software is distributed free because it includes embedded advertising," Mr Elmish explained.
"It could be sold for around $20, because (retailers) have to make a profit ... and we think they should not cost any more than that. We will make our money from advertising," he added.
Mr Elmish said initial production was set to begin in Israel within months on three bicycle models, and a wheelchair, and they will be available to purchase within a year.
The bicycles are not only very cheap to make, they are very light and do not need to be adjusted or repaired, while the solid tyres, of reconstituted rubber, cannot be punctured, Mr Elmish said.
"These bikes need no maintenance and no adjustment, a car timing belt is used instead of a chain, and the tyres do not need inflating and can last for 10 years," he said.
A full-size cardboard bicycle will weigh about 9kg (about 20 lb) compared to an average metal bicycle, which weighs about 14kg.
The urban bicycle, similar to London's "Boris bikes" and others worldwide, will have a mounting for a personal electric motor.
Mr Elmish said as the bicycles would be so cheap, it hardly mattered how long they lasted. "So you buy one, use it for a year and then you can buy another one, and if it breaks, you can take it back to the factory and recycle it," he said.
Mr Gafni predicted that in the future cardboard might even be used in cars and even aircraft, "but that is still a way down the road.
"We are just at the beginning and from here my vision is to see cardboard replacing metals ... and countries that right now don't have the money, will be able to benefit from so many uses for this material," he said.
Reuters
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Oct 28, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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No matter how silly the realities of that idea are on any kind of a large production scale, it's great to hear of someone actually doing something innovative for a change.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Oct 28, 2012 - 01:50am PT
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The guy immersed his prototype for days and it still runs fine. He coats it to protect it.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 28, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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I wonder what the cost analysis is if you compare the energy and materials to build a basic steel framed bike that will last decades (like my old Specialized) vs the materials and energy used to make and recycle the bunch of cardboard bikes I would go through in the same time frame.
It's interesting that we complain that this is a disposable society but as long as we can recycle something it's ok. It's as if you touch it with a fairy wand and it's magically recycled. People forget that recycling has it's costs and issues.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 28, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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You can usually repair a steel frame if you crash which is usually not the case with one of those plastic made - in- china frames from Cervelo...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Oct 28, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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The Chief...I said USUALLY , not always on the steel frame repairs....RJ
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Oct 28, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
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I love the cardboard bike. It is supposed to be water and fire proof.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 28, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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Bamboo baby!
There is an interesting part in David Millar's book where he lays into Lance about not doing more to clean up the sport.
Some good background on Team Sky as well.
It is hard at this point to trust any of them, but time(s) literally will tell. Watching the winning times late in grand tours will be a good indication.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 29, 2012 - 12:49am PT
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I love the bamboo frames. I saw some show about how they are made. The company made one for a woman who was a cyclocross rider.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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interesting flash back to when Lance was a hero. hmmmm
(hour long video about US Postal run-up to tour in 2001. Actually a fun flick to watch IMHO, even if you know now what was going on in the closet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRYEz8KqYZE&feature=watch-vrec
edit: Fear's point noted; I should have said "perceived my many as a hero...". Yea, sports stars, even if clean are not heroes.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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interesting flash back to when Lance was a hero. hmmmm
Lance was never, ever a hero. He rode a bike for lots of money. End of story.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Lance was never, ever a hero. He rode a bike for lots of money. End of story. I'll bet there are/were a lot of people with cancer, especially in the early 2000's who would pretty strongly disagree with that statement. He was a big hero to people living with cancer.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Well, my grandma passed away last year. The cancer finally got her.
But she'd had it a couple times before and went into remission. The second time around was right when Lance started dominating. And despite not having even been exposed to bike racing before that, she became a huge fan, watched all the live TDF coverage every day, for years. He was a big hero to her, and probably the biggest reason she decided to go through the gnarly courses of chemo the second time around.
So you know what? Go sell your "he was never a hero" sanctimonious bullshit somewhere else.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Opinion: Armstrong case provides a window into our collective morality
By Dr. Phil Skiba
Published Nov. 2, 2012
Updated 5 hours ago
Dr. Phil Skiba believes the Armstrong case highlights aspects of our collective celebrity worship and "win at all costs" mentality. Photo: Gabriel Bouys | AFP
“This is my body, and I can do whatever I want to it. […] What am I on? I’m on my bike busting my ass six hours a day. What are you on?” — Lance Armstrong, from a 2001 Nike commercial
The above quote seems equally prophetic and disingenuous in light of recent events. The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) has revealed over 1000 pages of documentation in support of a single conclusion: Lance Armstrong achieved his near-superhuman results through a combination of performance-enhancing drugs and blood transfusions. He was the de facto ringleader of a breathtaking fraud. Despite this, I find myself answering a single question with alarming frequency: “Who cares?”
People who seek to minimize Armstrong’s transgressions often reference the doping present in other sports. They may point to Marion Jones or some similar story as evidence that doping is simply endemic to elite competition. Aside from the fact that it is ridiculous to excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior, there is an important difference in the present case. We find it somehow more offensive than what has come before. I’ve puzzled over that fact for some weeks now, and I believe I understand why that is. I will begin my explanation with another Armstrong quote:
“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics: I’m sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I’m sorry you don’t believe in miracles.” — Lance Armstrong, 2005 Tour de France victory speech
Armstrong sold an intangible product coveted by all fair-minded people: the idea that clean living and a supreme work ethic are rewarded. He offered the belief that despite impossible odds, we can triumph over the insurmountable through the force of human will.
As a cancer survivor and as a physician, I wanted to believe in the Lance mythos more than anyone. I have used his example to help motivate my sickest patients for more than a decade. I am deeply disappointed at the way Armstrong provided false hope to desperate, vulnerable people, and then used them as his most ardent supporters. He sought veneration and financial gain in the hearts of people with catastrophic illness in the most craven way. This is the first reason you should care; Armstrong fed his own worst demons with our best angels.
The survivor community will recover from this blow. We will find hope in our families, in each other and in our doctors, as we should. Our society as a whole has something a bit more insidious to address, and this may represent a more important reason you should care. Armstrong has demonstrated that you can lie, cheat, bully, damage the personal and professional reputation of others, traffic in and use drugs, pressure others to traffic in and use drugs, and still come out a “winner” financially, professionally, and socially. He has reinforced the suspicion that has gone through the mind of anyone who has ever sat through an algebra test and noticed another kid using a crib sheet: Playing fair is for suckers.
You may believe that Armstrong’s sanction from USADA obviates this last point. You are wrong. Lance Armstrong Inc. is doing just fine. Nike, along with his other sponsors, have distanced themselves from him but are standing behind the LiveStrong brand. Celebrities continue to turn up at LiveStrong events. A bill has been proffered in Congress to defang the organization that caught him.
Rather than abiding by the reasoned decision of USADA, sporting events have given up the sanctioning of USA Triathlon so that Lance Armstrong was able to race. Allow that to sink in for a moment. Race organizations have actually turned their backs on anti-doping rules for the purposes of bringing the worst cheater in the history of sport to their events.
Simply put, the Armstrong case may be symbolic of a decline in our popular morality, which worships celebrity above fair play, hard work and decent behavior. It is also a window into how far the “win at all costs” mentality has contaminated our collective psyche.
Lance Armstrong has set, and continues to set, a very bad example, and in so doing works against what I do as a physician, teacher and professional sports consultant every single day. Unless we demand better, we risk continuing down a very cynical path. This is the final reason you should care. There will always be real heroes and false champions: it is for our collective good that we must elevate the former and demote the latter.
Dr. Skiba is the program director for Sport and Exercise Medicine at the University of Exeter, and is the incoming program director for Sports Medicine at Lutheran General Hospital, Park Ridge, IL. Dr. Skiba has trained a number of elite endurance athletes, including two world champions.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Compare with the curious case of Richard Milhous Nixon.
When the President does it, that means that it's not illegal.
Or perhaps the curiouser case of one Jimmy "great balls of fire" Swaggert
[Click to View YouTube Video]
If Lance Armstrong comes clean and apoligizes can he be forgiven?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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So you know what? Go sell your "he was never a hero" sanctimonious bullshit somewhere else.
Not selling anything. Just pointing out what is obvious to me. It's up to everyone to decide who, if anyone, they decide to idolize.
If believing in a sun-God that draws the sun across the sky in a chariot every day helps someone overcome a horrible disease then more power to them. I would not want to interfere with a fantasy that works for someone.
Belief is a poweful thing. But reality is often very, very different.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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saw part of a new South Park where everyone found out that Jesus used drugs to help him perform his miracles. Everyone was so outraged they were all taking off their WWJD yellow wrist bands. One of the kids kept his on and became the next hero, even getting a NIKE commercial. That's all I saw but it was pretty funny.
EDIT: I checked their sight and here is the link to the show:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s16e13-a-scause-for-applause
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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I've got to get a STANdstrong poster.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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Petraeus .... what does the govt do with a guy like this?
I mean this guy knows more about a lot of insider sh!t then anyone, even the president.
They let him go over some woman.
Holy sh!t the russian could offer him millions to talk.
This guy Petraeusis a "Hot security asset".
He could be kidnapped and tortured?
Does the govt just let guys like him walk out the door and go to the mall to shop?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
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Petraeus news story is a dud?
They just let him go to the mall and buy a bass fishing rod to become Joe sixpack to go to Louisiana to go fishing.
That's it?
There's nothing in the CIA worth sh!t then ....?
:-)
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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this should be on its own thread, but since people are comparing to Patraeus, here's a new look (at least new to me)
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/11/10-4
it seems he was dicking with and sabotaging the President's aims, for his own neo-con purposes. I'll bet they were sitting on the girlfriend info until it was a good time to kick his ass out.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
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Its funny, I just read an article recently were some military specialist was complaining that they don't fire generals anymore. It seems in WWII, if you lost one battle you were demoted, but now (so this guy argues) its all about looking out for each other's careers. Anyway, his last comment was that the only way a general could get fired in this day and age is if he had a relationship with a subordinate. then two days later the Patraeus thing comes out in the public. lol true enough, though there evidently is a bigger back story to the story....
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Nov 12, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
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Whos telling the truth here? someones going to prison, and it isn't going to be Lance. . .
guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/12/paula-broadwell-benghazi-cia-petraeus
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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The Chef...I wish i had to live in Lances prison...beats working for a living..RJ
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
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I doped extensively during my (amateur) racing career.
Carbonized herbal supplements administered through a tube and caffeine infusions.
Wow, I feel so much better now!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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He is the Highest decorated Officer in the Military
He advocated, and should be upheld to the highest standard of the Military Code Of Honor
He has no excuse, he Must resign, or be Court Marshaled
Funny, General Colin Powell tells a pack of lies to the UN and gets us in an unjustified, illegal war that kills thousands and somehow the real demon is a guy who can't resist a little nooky
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 12, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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We weren't calling him General Betrayus for nothing, Karl.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 13, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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The Chief....Mammoth isn't that bad...I could always move to Chalfant and be a Meth Lab Junky or get assigned to the minimum security prison at White Mt. Estates..? RJ :]
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 13, 2012 - 01:53am PT
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MH, what betrayus did to earn that name is he went along with Bush, Cheney, et al when it was crystal clear to the other military men, and should have been obvious to him as well, that it was a no-win situation. Betrayus was willing to do anything to further his career, including stepping on the necks of his brothers in arms.
The other miltary man you name eventually came to speak the truth in public, dead-ending his career. betrayus bought, literally, some temporary peace by paying out hundreds of millions in cash to the very groups that were targeting our soldiers. Isn't that how we created the terror groups that eventually attacked us on 9/11?
Of course, that was nothing new to his leaders who had sold out our hostages in Iran to buy some political capital against Jimmy Carter. Sell them arms, give the money to another terrorist group, the contra's, and make sure the Iranians won't bargain with President Carter. I'm not so sure that the ill-advised rescue mission they eventually sold him on wasn't sabotaged to ensure it's failure.
After all they were the same guys that also sold Sadam his WMD's and then let him use them against his own citizens. You know, the ones Bush sr. told to "rise up, and we will support you". Bush gave him permission to fly helicopters armed with poison gas and kill those very same freedom fighters. Junior and cheney used this event as proof of the weapons existence a decade later to get us into another disasterous war.
Betrayus lined up his star with those treasonous bastards and now the chicken has come home to roost. He deserves whatever he gets, but it wont be enough because he, both bushes, cheney, probably a half dozen others should be lined up against a wall and shot for selling out our country. Sorry, my country. I know you're from the GWN...
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 13, 2012 - 02:53am PT
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Makes P.Broadwell's book, All In, take on an entirely different meaning, doesn't it?
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 13, 2012 - 02:59am PT
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The Chief wrote:
EDIT: But then again you would probably enjoy a life of complete solitude which all you do is lie on a couch all day long in front of seven jerseys that mean absolutely nothing to anyone except yourself..
Bold by me.
So what you're really stating is that the yellow jersey means absolutely nothing to anyone, since Landis, Contador were doping, we know guys like Hinault, Merckx, Indurain slipped out quietly and discretely before the sh#t really hit the fan, etc.
In other words every winner of the Tour de France for decades has used performance enhancing drugs, some have been caught, but for whatever reason only Lance receives your scorn. Weird.
The whole enchalida is a sham, has been for a long time (doesn't mean that the riders don't train hard), and the only reason performance enhancing drugs are still involved are because the sponsors, race organizers, etc. (read the money and power behind the race) advocate it. If they didn't the races wouldn't be doing them (not that they should not be responsible for their actions).
Again, why do you continue to single out Lance?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Again, why do you continue to single out Lance?
Because Lance lies with less shame and more self-righteousness then all the others put together. He also made $130 million doing it - and continues to deny to this day that he has done anything wrong and insists that his accusers are simply pursuing self serving vendettas. It's all just so shameless.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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So, having read only this page I get the impression that Petraeus outed Lance.
Am I close?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 13, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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I'm pretty sure the chief hyperventilating over Lance is the main driver of CO2-induced global climate change.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 13, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Dec 28, 2012 - 10:19am PT
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-nominated-as-texan-of-the-year
Armstrong nominated as Texan of the Year
By: Cycling NewsPublished: December 28, 11:27, Updated: December 28, 12:41Do you like this?
Dallas newspaper calls him “a fighter, a survivor and a cunning, steely-eyed liar”
Lance Armstrong has been nominated for Texan of the Year – but not as a sterling example of the Lone Star State's population. The Dallas Morning News has nominated him for its award as a top newsmaker who has had a great impact.
“Armstrong’s crash to Earth in 2012, with all its painful reverberations, leaves a Texas-size crater that qualifies him as a finalist for this year’s distinction. His fall wasn’t pleasant to behold,” the newspaper said in an editorial. “If nothing else, it’s a lesson about the perils of hero worship.”
The title is one which does not necessarily reflect well on the recipient. “The Dallas Morning News Texan of the Year is a distinction we bestow for impact, be it for better or for worse. It reflects the prominence of what Texans do, not what we’d prefer them to do.”
Armstrong, a lifelong resident of Texas, first came to notice in the state as a teenage triathlete. He enthralled millions of Texans and fans around the world as he came back from cancer to win seven consecutive Tours de France, and raised millions of dollars from this Livestrong Foundation.
But the legend came to an end in 2012. “This year came the epic fall, a legacy imploded in weeks. The head of the U.S. anti-doping agency revealed him as a serial cheat, the enforcer of 'the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.' Sponsors abandoned Armstrong. Nike said he misled the company for a decade.
“Now the Armstrong brand will forever be that of a fighter, a survivor and a cunning, steely-eyed liar.”
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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EDIT: But then again you would probably enjoy a life of complete solitude which all you do is lie on a couch all day long in front of seven jerseys that mean absolutely nothing to anyone except yourself..
i suppose its more worthwhile to have been a government slut who served and did whatever they told you to do even though it may have been wrong?
dont take this as a negative, just pointing out some things............
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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i suppose its more worthwhile to have been a government slut who served and did whatever they told you to do even though it may have been wrong?
I get what you're saying... just there might be a more diplomatic way of getting your point across. lol.
I don't have much of an opinion on this topic anymore, because I just don't think it matters in the world (I like South Parks take on it). But you have to admit, THIS is f*#king gross.
Think about 7 posters of all the routes you did that you took at a crux, or pulled on a peice, or got beta but call it a flash, or maybe pre-rehearsed on toprope and didn't tell anyone... could you look at that every day when you know that they aren't real? That you have to lie to keep them as trophies? It takes a sad, sad person... or a psycho. I don't know which he is, and it is none of my business - but he let that camera man into his home for me to catch at least that glimpse of narcissism...
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WBraun
climber
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Armstrong now admits that all along he lied and scammed everyone.
He just tried to payoff on cyclist $300,000 to lie that Lemond juiced.
The cyclist refused.
Now Armstrong is trying to make a deal that if he goes public and admits his lies he'll be able to compete again.
Bizarre
He' screwed, and they shouldn't make any deal with because he scammed everyone, bullied, blackmailed and fuked everyone over.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Armstrong voted Texan of the year....? Does this mean Bush Jr. moved back to the east coast...? RJ
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Armstrong set for tell-all interview with Oprah WinfreyBy: Cycling NewsPublished: January 9,
Lance Armstrong will give his first interview since being stripped of his seven Tour de France titles later this month when he appears on the 'Oprah's Next Chapter' program on her eponymous US cable television network.
The interview, which will go to air on January 17 will also be available simultaneously through the network's website.
Armstrong was the focus of the United States Anti-Doping Agency's investigation which labelled the US Postal team's operation as "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen" on October 10, 2012. USADA stripped Armstrong of all results from August 1, 1998 when he declined to contest charges of doping in late August and handed the Texan a lifetime ban all of which was later ratified by cycling's governing body, the UCI.
The 41-year-old will give the interview from his home in Texas.
A media release on Oprah.com said that "Armstrong will address the alleged doping scandal, years of accusations of cheating, and charges of lying about the use of performance-enhancing drugs throughout his storied cycling career."
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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On CNN right now.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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a donation of about $250,000
Tygart smirked, "it's gonna take four times that, the drugs must have addled his brain".
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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The Chief called it on this one.
I admit that I was wrong about Armstrong.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
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So it's just been confirmed today.
Lance made his full confession that he lied all along and swindled millions from everyone associated with him.
Bob D Antonio along with many others here over the years vehemently defended Lance and his lies thinking they were true ......
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
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I wish there was a photo of Werner laying on the couch watching Oprah...
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
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post 900!!! go LANCE!!11!!!
give it a good cry on Oprah!!!!!
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
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Regardless of what Lance does, read Tyler Hamilton's book if you haven't already... Good stuff. Amazing to me that more of those guys didn't/don't die abusing themselves like that. I wonder if there will be any long term consequences to their health.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
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Fear...I read Hamiltons book...Those pros were idiots spending all that money to blood dope and it seems they spent all their spare time stressing about getting their blood transfusions instead of relaxing and recovering...Talk about neurotic...RJ
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
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Riley wrote,
Sociopaths just have no shame man..
no wonder they have the leg up on all us folks of conscience, empathy and normal emotion..
We are living in a sociopath's world man - they just allow (us) to hang around to fill the sucker role.
You ever wonder if you're forthright to a fault? (cf: honest to a fault)
I do. :)
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckadia
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
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+1 for what GDavis wrote about 15 posts back.
sure they all doped. what appears to be unique to armstrong is the level of character assassination, financial threatening and psychological manipulation that he brought to all of those who dared "cross" him.
it'll be interesting to see if oprah allowed herself to be a part of an apology charade...
if she doesn't, for starters, ask how he plans to address all of the people he's f*#ked over, that's exactly what she will have done.
that she's letting him phone this in from a hotel, likely with all of his lawyers and support staff just off camera, is not a good sign.
looks as though maybe oprah's getting desperate for viewers and lance found another patsy...
hope she proves me wrong.
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SicMic
climber
two miles from Eldorado
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
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Sheryl looks pretty smart now for dumping the Juice.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 14, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
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sure they all doped. what appears to be unique to armstrong is the level of character assassination, financial threatening and psychological manipulation ...
I wrote in an email to a friend over three years ago that I was sure Lance Armstrong doped along with many of the other riders. At the time I said it was a shame because I admired the guy.
Now folks are saying he was in a class of his own. I'm not going to spend time reading the books, but would someone summarize, briefly if possible, the evidence for the statement above?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 14, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
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Fear...I read Hamiltons book...Those pros were idiots spending all that money to blood dope and it seems they spent all their spare time stressing about getting their blood transfusions instead of relaxing and recovering...Talk about neurotic...RJ
No shite eh? Millions of dollars according to Hamilton.
And getting the others guy's f'ing blood transfused! Holy crap!
If Hamilton was lying, he's one of the best!
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 14, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
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Thanks for posting Riley- a very interesting read.
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John M
climber
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Jan 14, 2013 - 09:13pm PT
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Some people on this thread said "so what if they doped". They should read what NIcole Cooke had to say in Riley's post.
What a shame.
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The Lisa
Trad climber
Da Bronx, NY
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Jan 14, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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zBrown, you can read the USADA's Reasoned Decision against Lance as a PDF online, or download it and read at your leisure. It lays out testimony and statements step by step against Lance. Half the content is footnotes so do not be put off by the number of pages. It is a chilling read. http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/ReasonedDecision.pdf
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jan 14, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
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According to what I just read, Lance admitted to drugging during his
interview with Oprah today. . .
On TV Thursday!!!!
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John M
climber
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Jan 14, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
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I guess that there will be a lot of new Oprah watchers on thursday.. haha.. I thought she retired.
I wonder if her show will end up on a taco banner.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 14, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
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ok THANKS THE LISA - not small, but searchable
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Jan 14, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
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I do not think Lance will admit that he took steriod, blood transfusions, EPO, Testosterone. I think he just says yes people who raced at this time doped.
I do not think he apologizes to individuals. I do not think he apologizes to Zabrinski who swore to never dope and was actually able hang with the best while clean but just could not get out and lead. He eventually had the choice, dope or quit. He doped a couple of years then retired. Shame since he was one of the most naturally gifted riders to put on a jersey.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 14, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
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Slime is slime.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 14, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
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The question now is whether Armweak said or did anything that exposes him to prosecution. Hopefully there's a prosecutor or investigative committee somewhere with the jurisdiction and moxie to give it a shot.
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grover
climber
Northern Mexico
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Jan 14, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
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Sheryl looks pretty smart now for dumping the Juice.
she was dating O.J?
I'm confused :)
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 15, 2013 - 12:26am PT
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And the winner is... Oprah. That's it. Everyone else loses - the rest of the people he raced against, him, his friends, cycling, everyone. Even those that KNEW he doped just win confirmation, wahoo....
Oprah has her niche, man. That's who you call. Like running a flood cleanup business.
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John M
climber
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Jan 15, 2013 - 12:30am PT
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The problem with these type shows is that they have to tred such a fine line. If they ask too hard of questions, or come down to hard, then no one would come on the show. Thats why Barbara Walters asked such soft ball questions of the Shah of Iran when she got the interview. Too hard of questions means no interview.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Jan 15, 2013 - 02:05am PT
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In a sport that has self admitted to be so far on the cutting edge that it is defined to be about doing what will be illegal tomorrow, today, it doesn't come as a surprise. Regardless, if some small kid living down the road being raised by a single mother came to dominate a sport that 90% of people didn't even know was a sport from Vacaville, I would be the first to do what I could to help.
It is funny how in the financial "sport" of gaining wealth, it is accepted, more like applauded, to "bend" the rules for ones own gain, but in sport being on the cutting edge makes you a target. If you take a drug that will be illegal tomorrow does that make it illegal today?
No one can deny the dudes work ethic was beyond his time. No one can deny the guy was up against a peleton that was just as doped as he was. No one can deny that 90% of the players you cheer for every Sunday are even more doped than Lance, they just have a better union.
IMO no one can deny Lance's story is the greatest underdog story ever written. Its all about the man in the arena. Fvucke the critics.
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orangesporanges
Social climber
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Jan 15, 2013 - 02:15am PT
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Roughster.
I won't deny, but can you proove that Lance trained harder than everyone else out there?
As for doping though. His teams really were a step ahead of the others.
Road cycling makes me want to puke on my dck
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John M
climber
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Jan 15, 2013 - 02:17am PT
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Seems like Nicole Cooke's story as posted by Riley is more of an underdog. Refusing to use drugs against people who do take drugs.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 15, 2013 - 02:23am PT
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All the drama is ridiculous - they all doped and the sport is completely corrupt. And 'fix' it? You might as well try to clean up NFL and NBA betting in Chicago's corner bars - ain't going happen.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 15, 2013 - 07:32am PT
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Lance going down on Oprah...? Uuggh...
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 15, 2013 - 10:10am PT
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The UCI is probably going down too (though not on Oprah).
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 15, 2013 - 10:53am PT
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He's lying! He would never dope!
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 15, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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Just heard a sound bite of Oprah on Npr, on the way to work, where she said ,to paraphrase, Lance did not come clean like I expected.
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bpter
Social climber
Somewhere
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Jan 15, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
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o here are some of the questions we hope Oprah asked Lance:
1. Why now, Lance? Is it because in one potential perjury case the statute of limitations has passed? Is it because you've already lost almost all your sponsors, had to step back from your foundation and are no longer getting the attention you once earned?
Did you have to lose nearly everything until you sought the only possible out? And at this point, why are you worth listening to at all?
2. Why are you doing this with me, Oprah Winfrey? I'm not known for my cycling knowledge or for pointed follow-up questions or my investigative journalistic skills. In fact, it's the opposite.
Wouldn't sitting down with Scott Pelley at "60 Minutes" have been a more legitimate forum? How about the Sunday Times of London, which you sued for libel for printing the truth? Or any of the French or American media that you bashed all along when in fact they weren't wrong at all?
You always fashioned yourself as a tough guy, Lance. You beat cancer for crying out loud, why go soft now?
3. Let's talk Betsy Andreu, the wife of one your former teammates, Frankie. Both Andreus testified under oath that they were in a hospital room in 1996 when you admitted to a doctor to using EPO, HGH and steroids. You responded by calling them "vindictive, bitter, vengeful and jealous." And that's the stuff we can say on TV. Would you now label them as "honest?"
And what would you say directly to Betsy, who dealt with a voicemail from one of your henchmen that included, she's testified, this:
"I hope somebody breaks a baseball bat over your head. I also hope that one day you have adversity in your life and you have some type of tragedy that will … definitely make an impact on you."
When you heard about that voicemail, why didn't you call Betsy and apologize then?
4. By the way, did you take performance-enhancing drugs prior to your diagnosis of testicular cancer, as Betsy Andreu, who I now have every single reason to believe, says you admitted to doing? Do you think it played a role in your diagnosis?
And while the reason you contracted cancer does nothing to diminish the intensity of your battle, or the great example of strength it provided, don't you think it would've been an essential part of your public campaign against the disease to mention that you used performance-enhancing drugs?
5. Just to get it on the record, because the way things are going I'm pretty sure this will come out at a later date, did you or your minions ever pressure federal authorities to stall out investigations into your doping?
Now, you wouldn't lie to me, right Lance?
6. What do you say to Emma O'Reilly, who was a young Dublin native when she was first hired by the U.S. Postal team to give massages to the riders after races?
In the early 2000s, she told stories of rampant doping and how she was used to transport the drugs across international borders. In the USADA report, she testified that you tried to "make my life hell."
Her story was true, Lance, wasn't it? And you knew it was true. Yet despite knowing it was true, you, a famous multimillionaire superstar, used high-priced lawyers to sue this simple woman for more money than she was worth in England, where slander laws favor the famous. She had no chance to fight it.
She testified that you tried to ruin her by spreading word that she was a prostitute with a heavy drinking problem.
"The traumatizing part," she once told the New York Times, "was dealing with telling the truth."
Do you want to apologize to her? Not in general. I mean directly and by name. I mean, Lance, of all the people to attack like that, of all the people you had power and wealth over, you had to go after her? How Lance, could you do this to someone, and why would anyone want to believe again in someone capable of doing this to someone?
7. In 2011, former teammate Tyler Hamilton spoke about you and doping on "60 Minutes." He later said you two ran into each other in a Colorado restaurant where he says you tried to intimidate him, saying, "I'm going to make your life a living hell both in the courtroom and out of the courtroom."
Yet you knew he was telling the truth, right Lance? So why threaten him?
8. Greg LeMond, a three-time Tour de France champion, once raised the following hypothetical question: "If Lance's story is true, it's the greatest comeback in the history of sport. If it's not, it's the greatest fraud."
The allegation is that you heard that and decided to use your influence with Trek bikes to drop its association with LeMond's brand. The company even went to court to end a long-term contract. "Greg's public comments hurt the LeMond brand and the Trek brand," a company official said at the time.
What comment? Wondering about something that was true?
The move cost LeMond millions. Did you try to ruin him financially simply for spite?
9. We've just scratched the surface on people you pushed around. There are more victims in your wake. Do you want me to continue with the others?
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/questions-oprah-should-ask-lance-armstrong-230849439.html;_ylt=Ao1lB44.tVD8JExRa_YvRzY5nYcB;_ylu=
That is what this deal is all about. The financial agony, defamation of character and total disrespect that Lance put on all those around him that did not go along with his plan.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 15, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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Whoa, my give-a-shit meter just dropped way below zero!!
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jan 15, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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It's probably not in his nature to admit defeat. People who win that much, even with doping, have a certain drive that would be hard to overcome.
Heck, look at what happens on this forum when people get a bit competitive!
Dave
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
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This isn't about YOU survival nor any of you here on this forum.
Whether you give a sh!t or not does not matter one iota.
This is about this total POS aszhole who worked so hard to destroy anyone that got in his way for his own financial gain .....
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 15, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
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At least the top 20 riders on the tour are ALL doping. They have teams whose job it is to make sure they don't get busted. They all lie. It is pathetic that so many people sit around and watch other people on drugs ride their god damn bikes. Do your own drugs, ride your own bikes. Regardless, I love my pathetic friends :)
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 15, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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This is about this total POS aszhole who worked so hard to destroy anyone that got in his way for his own financial gain .....
Like Getty, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Weyerhaeuser, Ford, Walton, Cruise,
etc etc etc?
And what's that got to do with YOU swami?
Think hard, give-a-shit meter still below zero.....
Stupid Americans.
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bpter
Social climber
Somewhere
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Jan 15, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
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At least the top 20 riders on the tour are ALL doping.
They sure did.
But not one of those riders imposed the financial agony, personal defamation of character agenda and turmoil on all those that got in their way of fame and fortune in building their personal empire as did Lance Armstrong in the past 16 plus years.
This one really strikes me as truly sad and morally pathetic. I really hope that she goes after him for all that he has and puts him out to lunch.
6. What do you say to Emma O'Reilly, who was a young Dublin native when she was first hired by the U.S. Postal team to give massages to the riders after races?
In the early 2000s, she told stories of rampant doping and how she was used to transport the drugs across international borders. In the USADA report, she testified that you tried to "make my life hell."
Her story was true, Lance, wasn't it? And you knew it was true. Yet despite knowing it was true, you, a famous multimillionaire superstar, used high-priced lawyers to sue this simple woman for more money than she was worth in England, where slander laws favor the famous. She had no chance to fight it.
She testified that you tried to ruin her by spreading word that she was a prostitute with a heavy drinking problem.
"The traumatizing part," she once told the New York Times, "was dealing with telling the truth."
Do you want to apologize to her? Not in general. I mean directly and by name. I mean, Lance, of all the people to attack like that, of all the people you had power and wealth over, you had to go after her? How Lance, could you do this to someone, and why would anyone want to believe again in someone capable of doing this to someone? http://sports.yahoo.com/news/questions-oprah-should-ask-lance-armstrong-230849439.html;_ylt=Ao1lB44.tVD8JExRa_YvRzY5nYcB;_ylu=
Like Getty, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Weyerhaeuser, Ford, Walton, Cruise, etc etc etc?
So it is OK with you "SURVIVAL" to completely fk over anyone that gets in your way of success.
Got it!
More like morally pathetic self-centered Americans.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 15, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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No, it's not ok "BPTER"!!
But why is Lancey boy worth more attention than all the other rich as#@&%es in the world?
Oh, ok, got it.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
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Yes stupid Americans
The year 2012 consisted of a continuous sequence of destructive acts by Congress and the White House.
In a final destructive act, the Senate passed the National Defense Authorization Act for 2013.
This act continues the unconstitutional grant of power to the executive branch to violate all rights of US citizens.
In the US laws cannot take precedence over the Constitution.
Yet, we now have successive National Defense Authorization Acts that render the Bill of Rights moot.
There is no public uproar over the idea that national defense requires that US citizens lose the protection of law that is granted by the US Constitution.
When citizens stand defenseless before their own government, what national defense do they have?
The obvious conclusion is that most Americans are indifferent to liberty and are content with tyranny.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 15, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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That's only the beginning of the stupidity!
If Americans stick to their eating and exercise habits, future historians will look back on the early 21st century as a golden age of svelte.
Using a model of population and other trends, a new report released on Tuesday by the Trust for America's Health and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation projects that half of U.S. adults will be obese by 2030 unless Americans change their ways.
The "F as in Fat" report highlights the current glum picture of the U.S. obesity epidemic, in which 35.7 percent of adults and 16.9 percent of children age 2 to 19 are obese, as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported earlier this year.
But for the first time, the report builds on state-by-state data from the CDC to project obesity rates. In every state, that rate will reach at least 44 percent by 2030. In 13, that number would exceed 60 percent.
Obesity raises the risk of numerous diseases, from type 2 diabetes to endometrial cancer, meaning more sick people and higher medical costs in the future, the report said.
It projects as many as 7.9 million new cases of diabetes a year, compared with 1.9 million new cases in recent years. There could also be 6.8 million new cases of chronic heart disease and stroke every year, compared with 1.3 million new cases a year now.
The increasing burden of illness will go right to the bottom line, adding $66 billion in annual obesity-related medical costs over and above today's $147 billion to $210 billion. Total U.S. healthcare spending is estimated at $2.7 trillion.
That projection supports a study published earlier this year in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine that found that by 2030, 42 percent of U.S. adults could be obese, adding $550 billion to healthcare costs over that period.
'A TALE OF TWO FUTURES'
As with all projections, from climate models to Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol," human actions can prevent the worst of the scenarios, according to health policy experts.
"This is a tale of two futures," said Jeffrey Levi of George Washington University and the executive director of Trust for America's Health. "We're at a turning point where if we don't do something now to mitigate these trends, the cost in human health and healthcare spending will be enormous."
Obesity is defined as having a body mass index (BMI) above 30. Overweight means a BMI of 25 to 29.9. BMI is calculated by taking weight in pounds and dividing it by the square of height in inches, and multiplying the result by 703. For instance, someone who is 5 feet, 5 inches tall and weighs 185 pounds (84 kg) has a BMI of 30.8.
Obesity rates among U.S. adults have more than doubled from the 15 percent of 1980. In that same time, they have more than tripled among children.
Since the CDC found that the percentage of obese children and adults was essentially unchanged between 2008 and 2010, some experts question whether the "F as in Fat" model overstates future obesity by assuming past trends continue in a straight line.
"This is a strong assumption," said economist Justin Trogdon of RTI International in North Carolina. "Recent evidence from other surveys suggest obesity rates may be leveling off."
Mathematician Martin Brown of Britain's National Heart Forum, a nonprofit group, who led development of the model, said it takes a longer view by design.
"You have to take trends over a number of years," he said. "In the age groups that matter, there just isn't much evidence of a leveling off in obesity rates."
EDUCATION AND INCOME
Obesity has long been associated with education and income. The report found that about one-third of adults without a high school diploma were obese, compared with about one-fifth of those who graduated from college or technical college.
And one-third of adults who earn less than $15,000 per year are obese, compared to one-quarter of those who earned $50,000 or more per year. The obesity-poverty connection reflects such facts that calorie-dense foods are cheap and that poor neighborhoods have fewer playgrounds, sidewalks and other amenities that encourage exercise.
As a result, many states projected to have the most obesity in 2030 do now, too. In 2011, 12 states had an adult-obesity rate above 30 percent, with Mississippi the highest at 34.9 percent. Colorado was the lowest at 20.7 percent.
The report projects that in 2030 in Mississippi, 66.7 percent of adults will be obese, as will 44.8 percent in Colorado, which will still be the thinnest state.
More surprising are projections for states such as Delaware, now ranked 19 for obesity with a rate of 28.8 percent. The model uses 1999 as a baseline, explained Brown. "So if a state had a low rate of obesity in 1999 and is fairly high now, that indicates a steep rate of increase, which we believe will not go away." Result: an obesity rate of 64.7 percent in Delaware in 2030, making it the third-most obese state.
States facing the greatest percentage increase in obesity-related medical costs are now in the middle of the pack.
New Jersey faces the largest increase in costs, 34.5 percent, as its obesity rate is projected to climb from 23.7 percent today to 48.6 percent in 2030. Eight other states could see increases of 20 percent and 30 percent, including New Hampshire, Colorado and Alaska.
Trust for America's Health sees room to change that trajectory with the right interventions.
"We have learned that with a concerted effort you can change the culture of a community, including its level of physical activity, eating habits, what foods are offered in schools, and whether families eat together," said Levi.
In New York City, for instance, obesity for elementary and middle-school students dropped 5.5 percent from the 2006-07 school year to 2010-11, thanks mostly to healthier school lunches, public health experts said.
"A lot of this is about making healthy choices easier and not mandating healthier lifestyles," Levi said.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 15, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
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I wonder how many of the "Lance should be destroyed" crowd will be glued to their television sets this weekend, watching enthralled as a couple of hundred juiced up monsters vie for the right to play in the Super Bowl?
If LA deserves to be prosecuted and punished for using performance enhancing drugs as an athlete, why do American football players get a free pass?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 15, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
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why do American football players get a free pass?
You wouldn't understand, because you speak Canada.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 15, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Oh yeah? Well fuk off, eh. Ya hoser.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 15, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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(American) "All Canadian women are hookers or hockey players."
(Canadian) "Hey mutherf*%$er, my wife is Canadian"
(American) "Oh yeah, who's she play for?"
*Told to me by a DEA agent/ex-minor league hockey player who ended up with a black eye and a missing tooth!
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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Jan 15, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
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It's pretty easy to sit back in our comfy chairs and say "Oh I knew it all along" or some variation thereof. I always said that I would believe his story until proven otherwise, it's been proven otherwise, I no longer believe him. And that's pretty much the end of it. I'm not a competitive cyclist, and I don't think anyone on here is. In any case, no one here has been directly affected by this situation.
The sport of cycling and especially the Tour has been rampant with cheating and doping since pretty much day one. In the old days, racers would hitch a ride on a train or in a truck for parts of a stage.
When you get down to it, everyone in the lead peloton is doping. You can't compete unless you dope too, for the most part. Not excusing what he did in any way, but there was no way to give his victories to anyone else because everyone else in the damn peloton was dirty too.
What I don't see is what he has to gain at this point. He's not going to get any sympathy from me or many people I know - he made the bed so lie in it. Even if they reduce his ban, it's going to be reduced to 8 years - which is the same as a lifetime as far as being competitive, unless he plans to race in the senior class?
He's not going to make money off of this - as a matter of fact, the lawsuits are probably going to take every penny he has. Not to mention that fact that they are trying every way they can to pursue legal charges against him.
The only thing that I can think of is that he is doing this so that he can attack the IOC for "covering up" for him. And the Olympic committee is already saying that if he proves that the IOC did in fact cover for him, that they will have no choice but to remove cycling from Olympic sport. Way to go Lance, let's ruin even more lives just so you can feel better about yourself.
The guy has shown that he's a pile of trash of the lowest order, and no amount of apology is going to change the public's perception of him, IMO.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jan 15, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
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WTF?
Who is this Oprah person everyone's talking about?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 15, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
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What I don't see is what he has to gain at this point.
It's as plain as the nose on your face.
He's a Christian. You don't get into heaven if you're a liar.
It's one of the Ten Commandments.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 15, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
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Cosmic, that is one gross photo. Can't "un-see".
His only play at this point is to do his best at playing the nice guy. Oprah is just the beginning I'm sure.
Meanwhile he's got $130 million in the bank. That used to be a lot of money. I'd like to see him cleaned out, but I'm sure (even if he's in prison - ha) he'll keep a good hunk even after the lawsuits. By the way, I think its stupid to pretend the sponsors (and Thom Weisel himself (banker sponsor)) didn't know what was going on. But they'll all be doing their best to weasel out of being tainted.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 15, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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I heard a report today that the government supported the US Postal team to the tune of thirty-one million dollars. The government is now thinking of suing Armstrong to get that money back. Probably not all of it, but at least a good chunk of it.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jan 15, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
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Roadbiking is Wayhomo in the first place.
"Sports" as such make me want to puke in the second place.
Here's a clue...it's in France. France is almost as bad as Texas, fer crying out loud...oh, yeah...Lance is a Texian, huh?
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckadia
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Jan 15, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
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the following is in answer to zBrown's question [about 20 or 30 posts back already] and for all those who apologize for armstrong with the "everybody was doping" line of thinking.
here's a quick summary of a few of the people that armstrong has f*#ked and the reason why if he walks away only giving an apology, a few tears, and a few million bucks [out of his estimated 125 million net worth] he'll be laughing for a second time at all of you tools who are using the everyone was doing it line to apologize for him.
1. emma oreilly, a soigneur who spoke the truth in 2003. she then spent three years fighting a defamation law suit that would have bankrupted her and was filed by lance armstrong and his team. also had to deal with public denigration [being called a whore, etc.] by armstrong.
2. betsy andreu, wife of a cyclist who gave an affidavit regarding lance admitting in her presence some of the p.e.d. he used. she was publicly called a prostitute and an alcoholic by armstong and messages were left on her phone saying "i hope somebody breaks a baseball bat over your head" [the message, albeit, was not from armstrong directly].
3. mike anderson, a personal assistant who was apparently financially f*#ked over and then sued by armstrong and his team.
4. christophe bassons, cyclist who quit cycling after trying to come clean and being accosted by armstrong.
5. filippo simeoni, another cyclist who tried to tell the truth. he was then generally harrassed and publicly called a liar by armstrong.
this list is by no means exhaustive and is only meant to get a person started. i haven't worried about all of the other doping cyclists that armstrong threatened, publicly accosted, etc. [hamilton, landis, etc.]
and i'd place good money that for every one person willing to deal with the almost continuous public attacks to their reputations and financial wellbeing there are another 5-10 that have kept their mouth shut due to the threats and intimidation.
this list also doesn't begin to deal with all of the institutions he and his team have sued [the sunday times, usada, sca promotions, etc.] and the public denigration and insulting of those doing their jobs [dick pound, travis tygart, etc.].
anyone who can't see that armstrong is unique in how he used his position to intimidate, silence, and ruin others still has their head up their own ass. you're like the metaphoric ww2 japanese soldier still fighting in 1950.
your. hero. never. was.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jan 15, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
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article on slate.com:
Give Lance a Chance
He’s a cheater and a bully who doesn’t deserve leniency. But letting the champ cut a deal may be the only way to fix cycling.
By Emily Bazelon and William Saletan
Posted Tuesday, Jan. 15, 2013, at 6:34 PM ET
Lance Armstrong addresses participants at the Livestrong Challenge Ride in October 2012 in Austin, Texas. Armstrong is trying to cut a deal with the U.S. ADA regarding doping allegations.
Photo by Tom Pennington/Getty Images.
As the date of Lance Armstrong’s televised confession draws closer, there is now word that the cyclist and the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency have discussed the outlines of a deal. The New York Times says Armstrong met last month with officials of the USADA to talk about what he could do to reduce his lifetime ban from competition, and that USADA boss Travis Tygart is willing to shorten the sentence in exchange for Armstrong’s help in snaring his enablers. Those potential targets include the current, former, and honorary presidents of the International Cycling Union, known by its French acronym, UCI. The Times says that according to its sources, Armstrong is planning to testify about ICU officials’ involvement in doping.
When we saw these reports last night, many of us at Slate went nuts. Wasn’t Armstrong the kingpin of cycling’s decades-long program of lying and cheating? Why would you cut him a deal to implicate anyone else? But when you study USADA’s 200-page report on Armstrong’s doping career (PDF), a deal begins to make sense. Yes, Armstrong deserves every day of his lifetime ban. But he’s finished. His confession seals his guilt and disgrace. The problem now is UCI, which, according to USADA, masquerades as an adjudicating body while protecting dopers. To clean up cycling, and to keep it clean, you have to take down UCI, or at least its current leadership.
UCI presents itself as a drug cop. It claims its anti-doping program, designed to “get rid of cheats,” administered more than 15,000 tests in 2009. It boasts that all its blood samples “are taken by UCI-approved officials,” that all analysis is done by UCI-accredited labs, and that “the world’s leading experts analyze abnormal blood profiles. They advise the UCI on whether to open disciplinary proceedings for a breach of the anti-doping regulations.”
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But according to USADA’s report, UCI has routinely protected Armstrong instead of exposing him. In a 2002 meeting, Armstrong offered UCI at least $100,000. That fits with testimony from cyclists Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton—which Armstrong has denied—that Armstrong told them he “flew to the UCI headquarters and made a financial agreement to keep [a] positive test hidden.” When a French newspaper reported in 2005 that six of Armstrong’s 1999 blood samples showed EPO doping, UCI appointed an investigator who cleared Armstrong on a technicality. In 2009, the French anti-doping agency, known as AFLD, reported during its joint testing with UCI that Armstrong’s team got “privileged information or timing advantages during doping control tests.” When Landis implicated Armstrong in an April 30, 2010, email, UCI sued Landis instead of investigating Armstrong. In May 2011, when Hamilton publicly implicated Armstrong, UCI official Hein Verbruggen dismissed the idea, insisting “Lance Armstrong has never used doping.” No UCI representative even met with Landis or Hamilton. And four days after Armstrong sued USADA last year, claiming it had no authority over him, UCI—suddenly reversing itself—sent USADA a letter agreeing with cycling’s top dog.
Worse, the report indicates that UCI’s protection of dopers extends beyond Armstrong:
As set forth in the affidavit of former professional cyclist Jörg Jaksche, the UCI has responded with similar disdain and disinterest towards other cyclists that have tried to bring forth evidence of the serious extent of doping within the peloton. After coming forward and admitting doping in 2007, Mr. Jaksche spoke with UCI lawyers and officials, including [UCI President Pat] McQuaid, seeking to explain the level of doping that had been taking place on Team Telekom, ONCE, CSC and Liberty Seguros, however, according to Mr. Jaksche, “the UCI showed zero interest in hearing the full story about doping on these teams and did not seek to follow up with me.” Rather, Jaksche reports that “McQuaid told me he would have liked me to have handled things differently …”
If these allegations are true, UCI is like a dirty cop, or a police department gone rotten from the top down. In criminal cases, prosecutors concerned about corruption sometimes flip mobsters, even those high up in the food chain, to testify against police officers, if they see the crooked cop as the larger problem. After all, institutional corruption can pose the greater future threat. In the 2007 Chicago Mafia trial, for example, former mob boss Frank Calabrese Jr., author of the tell-all book Operation Family Secrets, was the star witness, and the five convicted men included retired Chicago police officer Anthony Doyle. The trial included testimony about Mafia payoffs to other officers, including former chief of detectives William Hanhardt, who’d been indicted for leading a $5 million jewelry theft ring at the end of a storied career in law enforcement. The woman who flipped on him was a former accomplice.
Institutional corruption is a known problem in doping. In 2003, a doctor who directed the United States Olympic Committee’s drug control administration produced documents showing that 100 American athletes who competed in the Olympics had failed drug tests that should have disqualified them. The batch included Carl Lewis, the amazing sprinter and long jumper. He’d tested positive three times before the 1988 Olympics for banned stimulants. Lewis was initially banned from the Seoul Olympics in response to the doctor’s revelations, but the USOC overturned that decision, accepting Lewis’ explanation that he’d used the drugs inadvertently. Other athletes gave the same excuse and were also cleared. In a 2003 interview, Lewis admitted to testing positive three times but said he was just one of many American athletes to duck punishment. "There were hundreds of people getting off," he said. "Everyone was treated the same." By the time he admitted this, Lewis had retired, and the International Olympic Committee declined to review his case because a three-year statute of limitation had passed.
It’s galling, for sure, to imagine Armstrong—the man who seems to have bullied an entire sport into doping—blowing the whistle on anyone else. But exposing UCI’s brass could turn out to be more crucial to cleaning up the sport. The only way we’ll know whether a deal is worthwhile is to see Armstrong’s evidence against them. Let’s hear what he has to say.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 15, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
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when I saw this (in 2005 I believe) I knew what type of character Lance was.
The 9/11 liar and the TdF liar. Birds of a feather ha ha
(that's W)
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 15, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jan/15/lance-armstrong-cost-benefit-analysis-confession
Lance Armstrong and the cost-benefit analysis of confession
Don't be fooled: the only thing choking up Lance is the lawsuits he has to settle. But he'll recoup through Oprah's redemption
Lance Armstrong doping confession on Oprah's network could have serious legal implications — video
According to CBS, Armstrong is in talks with the US justice department to settle a 'whistleblower' suit relating to Armstrong's USPS cycling team. Photograph: Lucas Jackson/Reuters
It is now absolutely clear that Lance Armstrong will make some form of admission in Thursday's interview with Oprah Winfrey to the dope-cheating that the Usada report called "the great heist sport has ever seen". The public relations strategy of drip-by-drip leaking has been expertly executed.
First, there was the New York Times' scoop about Armstrong's contacts with Usada to reduce his lifetime ban (disclosure: my sceptical response has proven 100% wrong). Then, we learned about the Oprah appearance, and it became ever harder to imagine what they would have to talk about for 90 minutes if Armstrong continued his career-long practice of stonewalling doping accusations and destroying those who spoke the truth. On Monday, the day his Oprah show was being recorded, Armstrong met with staff at the cancer charity he founded but recently resigned from, and rendered a tearful, "choked up" apology to his former Livestrong colleagues. And finally, we learn via CBS that Armstrong may even be willing to testify himself against fellow cyclists on doping charges.
In short, this now looks like a carefully choreographed, slow-release PR plan – likely managed by Armstrong's long-time agent Bill Stapleton – to perform a 180-degree turn on all previously held positions: belligerent denial, self-righteous indignation and bullying belittling of accusers. Instead, we have Lance Armstrong the penitent sinner: the weepy, choked-up prodigal son, who is finally coming clean and seeks redemption. As is well-established, an audience with Oprah achieves that almost instantaneously: I can see her right now, reaching out and taking his hand as he shakes with emotion and talks about the pain of living the false life we all made him lead.
And from redemption to rehabilitation. Armstrong will leverage his confession to the maximum to get his lifetime ban reduced, to four years, perhaps less. He'll be back before we know it: a slightly grizzled and more wrinkled version of himself, glad-handing and fist-bumping on the triathlon circuit, getting back to fundraising for the Livestrong Foundation, making faux-humble speeches for fat fees on the after-dinner circuit, mopping up some handy corporate sponsorships, reconnecting with his Washington power-broker contacts, and – older and wiser – maybe even running for office himself, as was once mooted.
But this only stacks up because, for the second half of his life, Armstrong needs not to be permanently exiled from American public life: to be a viable celebrity brand is all his future. The costs are significant: he will almost certainly have to settle with SCA Promotions, but they will probably take a lot less than the $11m that headlines their suit. The Sunday Times wants to recover $500,000 in damages, plus another $1m in costs; but they'll take less.
But here's the thing: Armstrong's net worth is estimated to exceed $100m. These sums sting, but they don't really hurt him. And next to his post-rehabilitation earnings potential, they're chump change.
The only remaining obstacle is Floyd Landis' "whistleblower suit" under the False Claims Act. Also called a "qui tam" suit, most such civil legal actions fail – unless the US justice department chooses to join as a co-plaintiff, in which case the chances of success multiply dramatically. Landis' suit alleges that Lance Armstrong, in effect, defrauded US taxpayers who were, via the US Postal Service, the title sponsor of Armstrong's Tour de France-winning cycling teams from 1999-2003. That sponsorship was worth, reportedly, about $10m per year, making $50m in total.
If Armstrong was choking up and sobbing at his Livestrong Foundation encounter, it was far more likely because he had received word that senior officials in the justice department had recommended that the federal government join Landis' lawsuit, than for any show of true contrition. It must be a rattling prospect, even for Armstrong, that the US government would be coming after him, along with Landis, for potentially tens of millions of dollars – which, all the pre-publicity tells us to expect, Armstrong will confess he took under false pretences when he won by cheating.
As this latest turn in the Armstrong saga demonstrates, the disgraced cyclist is nothing if not well-advised: the combination of off-the-record briefing (Mark Fabiani, Bill Stapleton?) and official denial (attorney Tim Herman) was text-book stuff. No doubt, they have done their sums, too. So if Armstrong has already opened negotiations with Travis Tygart at Usada to get his ban reduced, then it's likely, as CBS reports, that there have been talks with the justice department about a deal to settle the qui tam suit.
The question of why the US justice department is piggybacking on Landis' suit now, when a US attorney in California inexplicably nixed a prosecution based on the federal grand jury investigation into precisely the same charges of fraud is now mainly of academic interest. In his book, The Secret Ride, Tyler Hamilton hinted strongly that Armstrong's political connections pulled strings. We do know that Armstrong lied repeatedly, even under oath, but thanks to the statute of limitations in one case (the suit against SCA in a 2005 lawsuit), and a wayward federal attorney in another, Armstrong has dodged a felony rap.
A criminal conviction, no; but civil damages he can afford. Armstrong will have done his math, and worked out where the percentage lies: it's with confession. The benefits outweigh the costs: he'll earn that rehabilitation, but he will come out ahead.
The irony of this day is that it also saw the retirement of the greatest female cyclist of her generation: former world and Olympic champion Nicole Cooke. In her statement, of great dignity but justified anger, she directly pointed to the damage Lance Armstrong's dope-cheating did to her career, and to the entire women's sport, by killing its sponsorship. Please read it in full; it is a historic document. But this line says everything we need to hear about Lance Armstrong's confession:
I can't help thinking that the cheats win on the way up and the way down.
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Jan 15, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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saw this post
"At least he had the ball to come clean"
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jan 15, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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"For every rat you see, there'e a dozen more you don't see." Isn't that how the saying goes.
What this makes me wonder about is how many of the most successful, rich and famous people in this world got to their positions through dishonest means? I bet its a significant proportion, perhaps more than half.
Sh!t floats to the top . . .
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jan 15, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
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W could have least taken the winkies off his bike.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Jan 15, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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If Lance takes down the UCI, I might actually gain a bit of respect for him. It isn't possible for this whole mess to get to this level without the UCI either turning a blind eye or helping.
For those that are stating yeah but everyone doped, yes you are correct because those that decided they wanted to ride clean left the sport or stuck to riding smaller events.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 15, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
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Is this too harsh?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jan 15, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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I come from a long line of Drill Sergeants.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 16, 2013 - 08:56am PT
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and what about Armstrong's lawyers?
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckistan
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Jan 16, 2013 - 10:42am PT
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this whole subject has turned into one of those "hard to look away from a train wreck" type situations. what follows is in response to those who hold up livestrong and armstrong's cancer "research" fundraising as an explanation for why armstrong should be given at least some respect.
admittedly what follows is at this point mostly smoke. but given how pretty much all of the other smoke that's been reported over the last 15 years has turned out to be coming from actual fires, i'd bet hard money that if the feds ever get serious about investigating livestrong they'll find more lies and fraudulent or at least unethical enrichment of armstrong. there are just too many parallels between the way livestrong operates and the way armstrong the brand operates.
i don't have the time to go through all of the allegations but here are a few lowlights:
"Most people are unaware that there are two Livestrong websites. Livestrong.org is the site for the nonprofit Lance Armstrong Foundation, while Livestrong.com is a somewhat similar-looking page that features the same Livestrong logo and design but is actually a for-profit content farm owned by Demand Media. ... As compensation for the use of its name, the foundation received about 183,000 shares of stock, which it sold for $3.1 million when the company went public in January 2011. Armstrong also received 156,000 shares of his own as part of a spokesperson agreement. (His agents, Bill Stapleton and Bart Knaggs, also received shares.) After the deal was criticized in the media, Armstrong donated his initial sale proceeds—roughly $1.2 million—to the foundation and said he planned to donate the rest, too." [emphasis mine] outside
"Although Armstrong had told Vanity Fair he would be racing for free, he actually pocketed appearance fees in the high six figures from the organizers of both the Tour Down Under and the Giro d’Italia. An Australian government official told reporters that the money was a charitable donation, but Lance himself admitted to The New York Times that he was treating it as personal income." outside
"In October, Betsy Andreu and Kathy LeMond described to Roopstigo a 2008 email Armstrong had sent to Sen. John Kerry that threatened to use the Livestrong database against the Democratic Party if then-presidential hopeful Barack Obama did not attend the cyclist’s cancer summit." forbes
again those are just to get a person started, there are many more rumours/allegations/etc swirling around regarding the large amount spent on advertising, legal fees, etc.; the mafia like way his lawyers deal with anyone who tries to write stories about livestrong; and on and on.
here are a few more links to save those bored at work the googling:
roopstigo
ireport.cnn
fraudbytes.blogspot
while i do hope these instances are isolated, baseless, or misinterpreted i'm not going to be holding my breath. as others have pointed out it smells a lot like mortenson all over again.
the more that comes to light the more it looks like armstrong didn't just have cancer, he is a cancer.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 16, 2013 - 11:21am PT
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I wonder if Lance pauses over his breakfast toast and sees it as a metaphor on where his life has gone?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jan 16, 2013 - 11:25am PT
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Fkn' a$$hole.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2013 - 11:56am PT
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Not really Locker.
The basic prime human attribute is trust.
We all trust openly with our hearts.
When someone breaks that trust thru nefarious ways like this we become more and more closed.
Society as a whole suffers from actions like this.
Look and see how we've become thru the almost total erosion of trust in our world today by the actions of our leaders thru the long past years ......
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 16, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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I too was duped and refused to believe that it was true. Certainly didn't get worked up enough to call names though!
It seems that Lance did a lot of things that resulted in so many people turning against him.
It's worth pointing out (again) that Lance was winning pro triathlons when he was 16, his nickname was "the kid". Should we assume he was doping back then also?
So let's strip all of Lance's TDF titles. Great. Now who gets them? Who in the top 10 was really clean?
It bugs me that Eddy Merckx' five TDF wins are left to to stand. That's bullshít!
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 16, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
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Cycling is a total disappointment. Don't they all dope??
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 16, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
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I come from a long line of Drill Sergeants.
Is this true?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 16, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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Know a Doper? The UCI's confidential helpline.
The helpline number, which can be accessed from anywhere in the world, is +800 8884 8884.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 16, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
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Society as a whole suffers from actions like this.
I would bet that actions like this have been happening since we crawled out of the Great Rift Valley. So we've been suffering a looong time.
Whenever there is a lot at stake, people will lie/cheat/deceive to get an edge. Doesn't matter if it's war, sports, politics, science, or organized religions for that matter.
Doesn't mean a cheater can't do good things too, as Armstrong seems to have done. There's no reason to hate this man. He rode a bicycle fast for Christ's sake and injected stuff into his own veins. Sure, strip him of the "awards" since he cheated. Ok. But leave it at that. There's no need for anger.
The lesson is not to idolize anyone or trust people blindly. Something every society falls short on at points along the way.
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hb81
climber
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Jan 16, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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There's no reason to hate this man.
Apart from his unbelievable arrogance and the way he tried to destroy anyone
who wanted his lies revealed?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 16, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
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I agree he's a prick, but the world is filled with pricks. Unless they've done something to you personally, it's best to spend energy on something else.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Jan 16, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
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It's worth pointing out (again) that Lance was winning pro triathlons when he was 16, his nickname was "the kid". Should we assume he was doping back then also?
For what it's worth, when Lance was competing as a kid in the tri circuit, he was known as an talented, cocky, and an UNBELIEVABLE prick by the rest of the competitors. You can forgive that in someone so young, but he hasn't changed.
Doesn't mean a cheater can't do good things too, as Armstrong seems to have done. There's no reason to hate this man. He rode a bicycle fast for Christ's sake and injected stuff into his own veins. Sure, strip him of the "awards" since he cheated. Ok. But leave it at that. There's no need for anger.
People who say things like this only show that they just read the popular press releases and haven't bothered to go below the surface to find out what Lance has really been up to in addition to his cancer efforts. Lance has exhibited sociopathic behavior towards anyone that threatened his self-created orb of narcissism. The guy wrecked lives behind the scenes while he got famous, went to A-list parties, and walked away with over $100 million. I'd say that's worth a little anger.
Did he provide some level of inspiration to cancer victims as the ultimate success of a survivor who went from nearly dying to the pinnacle of elite cycling? Sure, but now that's been shown to have been all smoke and mirrors. Toss in the fact that his initial cancer was probably exacerbated by his use of human growth hormone and "T" and it gets even more interesting.
Someone pull the handle and let this steamer go down.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 16, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
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Throw the bum out!
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hb81
climber
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Jan 16, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
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Sure, but now that's been shown to have been all smoke and mirrors.
I don't like the guy but thats simply not true. It's still 98% talent and brutally hard training and commitment on a level that most of us probably can't quite apprehend.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 17, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
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At least he had the ball to come clean.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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Jan 17, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
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Throw the bum out!
I'd like to see the bum thrown in prison! But, of course, we all know, the rich and famous play by a different set of rules than the rest of us . . .
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jan 17, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
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Meh. Well, I hope the USPS gets their money back. They need all they can get.
Whole lotta scoundrels out there. Yeah Bruce, it's true. My oldest Brother got this generation.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Jan 17, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
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I still hope the UCI takes a serious hit over this. The UCI is complicit in the crimes since they ignored everything that was going on. Let's see, on international TV the leader of the peloton turns, makes a statement to the rest of the peloton, then rides away from the peloton and bridges up to the break away group and publicly chastises a rider that had spoken out against doping. Armstrong harasses the rider until he drops out of the break away and drops back into the peloton. The break away continues without Lance and the chastised rider. The TV commentators comment on the situation and the UCI does not investigate in any way. The doping was no longer a secret it was common knowledge.
Multiple riders went to the UCI and complained about doping practices and complained about specific riders. Some were actually chastised by the UCI. There are many reports, and this has been in the rags for years. Nothing, nada, the UCI sat on their ass and watched. Now they want Lance to testify. The UCI no longer has credibility.
One TDF doctor published a book and detailed exactly how doping was being done and how they were beating tests. The only thing that happened was the author and publishers were pressured to the point that the book was never published in English. What did the UCI do. Not a dam thing. They ignored the entire episode and tried to discredit the author.
I have no problem with them putting Lance on Trial but they darn well better take a cold hard look at the UCI.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:12am PT
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I'm very disappointed with Lance's answers in the interview.
Oprah was pulling teeth, he was guarded, well rehearsed, careful, calculated and still telling lies outright. His body language was very telling.
He could have been so much more forthright and named names but I guess it was too much to expect. Kudos to Tyler for not holding anything back.
Did I hear that Sheryl Crow called him "evil" in an interview recently?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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Yeah - he's minimizing what he did.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 18, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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The only thing really bothering me about all this ...
The Cheif was right.
well one other thing.
The people who's lives he tried and basically succeeded in destroying for telling the truth.
I hope they bleed him dry and get rich doing so.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Jan 18, 2013 - 07:11am PT
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Would have been a lot more convincing if the interview would have started with a big fat apology to all the people he called liars, drove out of cycling, and financially wrecked trying to keep his secrets under wraps.
What a train wreck.
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apinguat
Trad climber
kingfield, me
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Jan 18, 2013 - 08:18am PT
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The only thing really bothering me about all this ...
The Cheif was right.
That doesn't bother me I can't figure out his vendetta? Not that there isn't good reason for such an arse he was to other people but anyone who followed cycling those years, knew or should have known they were all on drugs.
Other thing.
The people who's lives he tried and basically succeeded in destroying for telling the truth.
Exactly.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 18, 2013 - 08:25am PT
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Yeah Bruce, it's true. My oldest Brother got this generation.
Is that why you're a rebel and a pirate? HA!!!
Guys usually go all in for the family trad or fight it.
I've got a buddy I went to survival instructor school with who followed in dad's footsteps. Man, what a dick sometimes! It's all good though, he goes to Drill Instructors Anonymous now.....
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JohnnyG
climber
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Jan 18, 2013 - 09:05am PT
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"listen, I called you crazy, I called you a bitch. I called you all these things, but I never called you fat"
Holy mo, that was surreal.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 18, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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Those of you say that his doping hurt nobody but him...
Let's, just forget about a moment the wealthy endorsements he got.
Let's think about the victims, yes victims, of his lies and deceit.
The people's whose reputations he destroyed. Emma O'Reilly, just as starters.
There apparently are still some Armstrong supporters on this forum.
The dude is rich and has gone out of his way to destroy people's lives, and some of you think he is "okay". Where did your get your values from? The gutter?
And this little story with Oprah will just get him more mileage. Sickening.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Jan 18, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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Well point blank he admits it.
If you can believe him.
Maybe he's lying
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 18, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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Dehli Dog, it was a PR job, get it?
His advisors told him, come clean and you will clean up.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Jan 18, 2013 - 10:55am PT
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wonder how much he got...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 18, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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He will get off scot free, but the people he has slandered and libeled, and the monies he has received from endorsements, will have a fight on their hands, and Armstrong will still clean up.
I don't know if should be surprised, amazed or befuddled at the Armstrong supporters on this form.
He won't be paying for your mortgage, healthcare or climbing gear.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 18, 2013 - 11:19am PT
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Wetzel is great and he's spot on with this.
Lance will never repair the damage he's done. What I hope though is that he goes under oath and does even more damage.... to cycling. That sport is so full of cheaters from the top to the bottom. I want to see just how far up the chain the cheaters go. Tell the truth. Expose it all. And let the sh#t fly.
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckistan
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Jan 18, 2013 - 11:35am PT
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in case there are people who saw the interview or the headlines and don't know a few of the intricacies.
any time a question might prove armstrong was part of a larger conspiracy and/or might increase the likelihood that he'll see jail time, he either punted or lied again. in the interview:
1. he says he didn't actually threaten or fire people who wouldn't use ped on his team. reality is his contract gave him this power and there are multiple cyclists who have gone on record saying they were threatened and/or fired by lance himself.
2. he punted on the question of whether betsy andreu had been telling the truth. why? because he's already lied in court testimony about this and in all likelihood his lawyers have advised him against talking about this to try and keep him out of jail or save him some money.
3. he said he never bribed the uci or had them cover up the 2001 tour of switzerland doping infractions. too much smoke surrounding this to still find this believable. hamilton and landis have testified to the contrary, there was indeed a donation of $125k just after this allegedly happened, and the lab head saugy admits to meeting with lance armstrong [saugy denies it was to help armstrong circumvent epo tests, but then also says "it's a fundamental right for the sportsmen to know the scientific basis of an analysis"].
4. he claims not to have doped in 2009 or 2010. at this point i'll take scientific analysis that says he has a one in a million chance of not cheating in 09/10, over someone who's still punting and lying.
if you want an emotional summary of some of the above here is betsy andreu:
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2013/01/18/ac-armstrong-andreu-reacts-to-intv.cnn
tl;dr lance armstrong, once again, did liestrong.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 18, 2013 - 11:36am PT
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The news clips of these backstabbing, small, jealous little weasels getting on national news and "naming names" made me cringe.
They were all doing the exact same thing, the only difference was the outcome on race day. Why all the names? Jealousy.
These team handmaids were the most disgusting.
I would have preferred a 10 minute "map room" confession over an epic 1.5 hr commercial filled sh#t show.
I have never watched Opra before. Why is she so successful? She is an absolutely terrible and incompetent interviewer.
What good would an epic list of names be, why are people so interested, and what gives them the right to even know? Another list will replace them.
The answer is in testing - which is constantly improving - and busting people when they can - not some f*#k-tarded public court of inquiry.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 19, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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Well, I just watched the entire interview with Oprah.
I don't see how his mea culpa could've been any stronger. It seemed to me he was candid and he's begun to hold himself accountable. We're human, we can get caught up in things. It seems to me this is what happened to him.
People have done way worse things in our history, even recently. Since his acts didn't affect me personally - I have no dog in this fight - I choose to save my worst adjectives and nouns (some of which I've read here and on the web) for way worse scoundrels in the world.
The fact remains. He recovered from Stage 3 cancer. He's a Stage 3 cancer survivor. Along with this is a survivor story, his survivor story, that has inspired many (cancer patients and their loved ones) and will continue to inspire many. This shouldn't be forgotten among the rest.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 19, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
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Why do some of you people still support this guy?
His lies have hurt people.
he has hurt people deliberately..., financially, reputation wise, etc, he is just a scumbag and there are still some of you how think he is, alright.
Unbelievable. You people need to look in the mirror at yourselves.
Lance Armstrong screwed people, and it appears that some of you think that is okay. Sad. Very sad.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 19, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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Stupid Americans saying he's a cancer survivor.
He didn't survive anything.
He spread his cancerous self onto everything he touched .......
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 19, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
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Werner
+1 ^^^
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 19, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
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Armstrong ruined people's lives for financial gain. Don't some of you get it?
He ruined people's lives. And some of you still look on him as some sort of hero.
And look behind the books of Livestrong. Who profitted?
There are better way to support cancer victims.
I lost my closest brother on May 18 to cancer and two good cousins last year as well and my sister to breast cancer in 2011.
And there are people on this forum who are battling cancer. What the f*ck has Armstrong, worth around $125m, done for any of them of them?
He profited from his cheating and he profited from his so-called cancer charity, maybe helping a couple of sufferers.
How in the world can some of you still support the scumbag?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jan 19, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
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The biggest "I dont give a f*#k" ever!!!!
Can we move on now?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 19, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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Bluering^^^
Obviously an Armstrong supporter. Why does that not surprise me.
He f*#ked people's lives up, Bluering, but you don't mind do you? You want to move on. Tard.
I'd bet you would do the same, you greedy self-centered, ah, person. Screw other people and reap the benefits. You make me sick. I have always held off trying to insult or flame you, but you just showed your true colors with your post.
Step on anybody to make a profit. Money, money, money and to hell with anybody else. Armstrong and you should be cabin buddies.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 19, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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Armstrong ruined people's lives for financial gain. Don't some of you get it?
If you cast that net, then your gonna get an awful lot of fishes.
Let's take for starters the mine owners that killed my grandfather (and maybe yours too).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 19, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
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Locker, I do not believe I misspelled survivor. :)
Hey, post up that good looking ass from a couple years ago, I'd like to see that one again. If memory serves she was young and thin and wearing a light brown bikini bottom.
.....
Regarding LA, I can separate his successes (e.g., his recovery from stage 3 cancer and the inspiration this is or would be for other stage 3 patients) from his failures.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 19, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
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Patrick, with your very negative attitude, it seems clear why there is so much cancer in your family. All that negativity......
You get the sense that you are the latest in history in wanting to be the head inquisitor, who has God speaking into his hear as to who is guilty, what punishments they deserve....all without knowing them.
You appear to think that if you read everything that every detractor has written about Armstrong, you know everything about the man.
The only thing really bothering me about all this ...
The Cheif was right.
the Chief was wrong. He argued against due process, against the concept of "innocent until proven guilty".
THAT was the basis of most people's support of Armstrong on this thread. The issue of the American concept of due process.
Armstrong is clearly guilty of doping. However, MANY MANY people, including many of his critics, made their livings off of him. To me, the whole lousy bike racing industry is dirty. I can't fathom the reason for continuing it. The focus on Armstrong seems narrow.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 19, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
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If Lance just "came out of the closet" and admitted he was a Scientologist then this whole sorry affair could have ended more than two weeks ago.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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Knowing about the circus they call the pro racing circuit or most pro sports these days, it is surprising to me when someone is surprised that the pros dope and cheat.
I mean, c'mon, is this really that surprising? Lance, beating the rest, the best, who were dopers, not once, but 7 times, without doping himself? What, was he really that head and shoulders above every other cyclist in the world?
It is like someone coming along and suddenly freeing an A5 route 7 times when you know that everyone else has been french freeing it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:38am PT
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What, was he really that head and shoulders above every other cyclist in the world?
Yeah, he probably was. If no cyclists had doped, would the results have been any different?
Without the juice, LA would probably still have been an as#@&%e, and he probably still would have won 7 tours.
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Guernica
climber
right there, right then
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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Pretty dick thing to say, Ken M.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 20, 2013 - 01:01am PT
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Here's another stupid zinger by you Ken:
the Chief was wrong. He argued against due process, against the concept of "innocent until proven guilty".
Unfortunately he was proven guilty years ago Ken, by all his close associates and everyone knew it all along except you .......
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 20, 2013 - 02:09am PT
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As a MD it might do you well to heed your own words, and learn a little more about your patient before diagnosing his family medical history.
Pardon me, GI, but if Patrick wants to post his family history as proof that he is an expert on cancer....which is what he did....then he is subject to having that expertise questioned.
HE posted his family history. I'm not afraid of talking about it. If you are, go hide under your bed.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Jan 20, 2013 - 05:05am PT
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Lance Armstrong. .. . . knew that he had been doping, lied about it, and then went after those who called him on that lie. Lied some more (knowing he was lying) and did everything he could to ruin those who called him on his lies.
He should be stripped of more than his medals. He should be forced to pay back any court fees or winnings for any and all litigations that he took part in whether he won or not if it was based on his lying about doping.
The whole of the sports world, both collegiate and professional, need to come to terms with doping, on whatever level.
The unfortunate reality is that it's all driven by spectators. Advertising dollars that fuel any given sport. You watch, you give, and it keeps going around. And around.. .. . and around.. . . .and around . . .
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 05:35am PT
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Let's take for starters the mine owners that killed my grandfather (and maybe yours too).
zBrown, after my mother’s father (both of my grandfathers were judges, in Olympia, WA and Wheeling, West Virginia), Papa Casey retired from the bench he gave his legal services for free to the miners and steel workers, working against the mine owners and steel owners. I haven’t seen it, but my cousins have, a statue of Papa Casey in Pittsburgh, PA.
Ken M, the point I was trying to get across was that Armstrong hurt people for his own gain.
Here in Ireland the press has focused on Emma O’Reilly and Lance’s treatment of Paul Kimmage. No doubt because they are Irish people he went out of his way to slander.
But there are a lot of people he slandered and libeled and sued and gained.
And Ken, actually, cancer has not been a problem in our family for the most part. But sh*t happens. And none of them were smokers.
If you are a physician, your comment about me would make sure I stay away from you. It was sort of mean, wasn’t it.
GLillegard, and Guernica, thank you. I would imagine and hope that Ken is a good doc, but he was rankled by my judging of LA.
Ken M, I don't know what to say to you.
EDIT
Ken, I don't know what caused Lance's cancer, and I'd certainly hope his Lifestrong organization has helped cancer victims, but was it built on a house of cards? Did he benefit from it? Some investigative journalists say he did, but as my former editors used to say, substantiate, substantiate, substantiate, if in doubt leave it out.
There are a lot of worthy organizations out there for cancer victims.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 20, 2013 - 05:45am PT
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Patrick
Ken M is far off on this one. Just let him go or ask him if he as an expert in his field can document the link between criticism (or negativity as he says) and cancer.
Edited:
A funny part of this - if you take Ken by his words - and think that criticism is negativity and negativity is causing cancer - then Ken is now exposing himself to a higher risk of getting cancer because he is criticising you.
On snow: It's not snowing in Oslo. The inner part of the city is nearly free of snow, but out i the woods around Oslo there is snow and people are skiing.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 05:55am PT
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Thanks Marlow, but I would hope and imagine that Ken M is not that mean of person, I probably just wrote some things he didn't agree with.
I could be wrong, but it seems like he is a supporter of Armstrong.
Cancer is horrible.
So is dementia.
I know a lot about both in recent years. But I am not a medical professional. Three years of pre-med and a certified EMT 1, and a medical journalist does not make me know all.
But I try to learn.
Lance Armstrong hurt people. Period. He may have also helped people. When does the bad negate the good?
EDIT
Hey Marlow, is it snowing in Oslo? Or is that a trick question?
It's trying to snow in Dublin, inland and higher up, but here in Dalkey, so close to the sea, the sea moderates the weather more.
Aer Lingus has cancelled flights to London and Paris due to the snow hitting Europe, not that Jennie and I have the money to travel to London or Paris. Nice would be nice (Jen lived there for three years in the mid-1970s, and I worked in Provençe in 1982).
What's it like in California, fellow Taco Standers? Tuolumne Meadows and 120 open? Or is that a trick question?
And for the other non-California Supertopians, how's the weather?
I'd imagine too cold for bicycle racing.
My first race, in a Bay Area High School circuit, was a hill climb in El Cerrito (1971), I just wanted the $10 prize to buy a lid. Came in fourth place, inches behind the other three... they all had the proper shorts, shoes etc, all I had was tennies, cut-offs and a Pogliaghi. I still have the yellow ribbon in a box somewhere.
So yes, I raced for drugs.
But I preferred climbing.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jan 20, 2013 - 09:42am PT
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The truth can be revealed. I am the father of Oprah's love-child.
I feel so dirty. Eww.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 09:48am PT
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Twisted Crank, Oprah/Opera (who I actually like as an entertainer, but she is a weak journalist). She is worth to close to $3bn, if you are the product of being a father of a love-child of hers, ask her for a loan. ;-)
I am sure she can afford it.
Just be careful of what interest rate she charges you.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 10:02am PT
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Ken M, I don't know your background, but if you are a MD, I would hope you are a good one.
Lance Armstrong aside (and he sure played Oprah for what it is worth, clever guy, but when you set out to hurt and slander people, karma will catch up with you).
I have been a full-time carer for over two years for my partner (Korsakoff's Syndrome), not getting paid much (Carer's Allowance something I could make in a couple of hours as a hack).
I have learned a lot, and I have a real good team behind me (doctors, nurses, carers) but sometimes it seems that when Jennie is lucid, that she knows more than I do. She lost her husband to cancer in 1990, and her partner to cancer in 2004.
If you want to make light of the subject, go on Steve Wilkos's show or Jeremy Kyle's show.
Cancer sucks.
You should know that, and yet, and perhaps I am wrong, you want to use it as a barb against me because it seems we disagree about Armstrong.
I am trying me best to get through life and take care of a beautiful and lovely woman. And you want to use me as a dart board.
Lance Armstrong has hurt people, and yet he is going to come out smelling like roses, just watch his thorns.
IMO, LA should be prosecuted, sued and stuck in prison. He hurt people deliberately. Wrongfully. Just imagine how those people feel. And see him smirking at Oprah, knowing he is a multi-millionaire and has the funds to fight off any rear-guard action.
Life is not fair, and he just proves it.
EDIT
As a journalist for seven years in England and now living in Ireland for 17 tears plus, most doctors I have come across are superb, just two have been smug, a GP and the other, an orthopedic surgeon censured by the Medical Board.
Just because you have a medical degree, don't be smug with me.
Make light about cancer in my family, if you will, but I am glad I am not one of your patients.
Lance Armstrong, whatever you may think, has ruined people's reputations and finances. If you think so highly of him, offer to be his doctor, I think it would suit.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 10:52am PT
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The arrogance of some doctors/physicians can be astounding. Thankfully, I have run across only a few. For the most part, docs I have had to deal with in Kaiser/Tuolumne General and other places in California, in England, France, Ireland, Spain, have been good docs.
I wonder what sort of doctors Lance Armstrong was dealing with?
Most medical professionals subscribe to the Hippocratic Oath, unfortunately there are some that believe in the hypocritical oath.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 20, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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Patrick Sawyer...Everybody knows it never snows when fog is present...! Stop the negative male energy... : ] RJ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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I still think lance never doped ....Take that Locker....RJ
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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Hey Rotting Johnny, I getcha, but I am not trying to be negative.
Ken M, if you and I can come up with some instant cure for hiccups, we could make it rich. No it is not food or booze, maybe nerves. But I have been hicupping for over an hour now. Tried everything but standing on my head.
I blame Lance. Ha ha. ;-)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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Locker...It's a good thing Lance has just one nut or Ken would be there much longer...RJ
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
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Locker, show some RESPECT for the good doctor.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jan 20, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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Locker...That's called an echelon not a centipede...
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jan 20, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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It's all because Lance's step-dad whooped him with a paddle, and his real daddy was what Lance called a "sperm donor". Loves to suffer to protect his real mother from his tyrannical step-papa. Martyr complex.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Come on folks, let's be 'decent'.
This thread is not about Ken or me or any of us.
But about somebody who cheated and yes others in his line of work did too.
But Armstrong was vindictive.
He deliberately went out to slander, libel and sue people.. too ruin their lives, so he could gain financially and try and keep his reputation intact.
If his charity helped cancer victims, okay fair play.
But Armstrong has proven to be a chancer, and as some articles suggest, he will come out looking much better. But what about the people he wrongfully hurt? Do any of you Armstrong supporters give a toss about them?
Cheating is one thing. Deliberately ruining people's lives is another.
If some of you cannot understand that, I pity you.
And Ken M I still have the bloody hiccups. They subsided for a while but are back. If we can come up with an instant cure, we could become richer than Lance.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jan 20, 2013 - 02:27pm PT
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Pat,
drink water upside down. drink a whole pint of water. Works for me every time.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
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What I STILL don't get is how so many people fell for it...
Locker, not people, but sheeple of the media and the cheats of the world.
I think that at this point, the minds of Armstrong supporters on this forum and elsewhere, will not be changed. His Oprah performance was well orchestrated and polished.
He has come out smelling like roses, and did Oprah help facilitate that? Hmmm...
She did do a weak job on interviewing him, and then she made excuses later. Deals were cut for Oprah to have the "exclusive". Money talks and his bullshit walks. And what respect I had for Oprah, has also walked.
In the meantime, I still have bloody hiccups.
Ken M and other medical Taco Standers, let's come up with an instant hiccup cure/solution. We could all be wealthier than Lance and Oprah put together.
EDIT
Mark, if your solution works, you just took a fortune off of me.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 20, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
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Mark, the pint of (cold Irish water) was easy, but the upside down bit, well you are more agile than I am, but yes I haven't hiccuped for, oops. I'll try it again.
Maybe if it took some drugs/steroids, the hiccups would stop.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 20, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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Is there anybody who posts on or reads this thread that could ride the TDF if I bought him/her some EPO?
I would like to try some EPO since I don't compete on the world stage and see waht it actually does for ya.
Could it be a substitute for nitric oxide, would your boner lost longer?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jan 20, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
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Pat,
Lay over the end of a couch so your whole upper body is hanging down you could even rest your head on the floor. You'll have to sip the water out of the glass from your top lip. you're almost pouring it into your mouth. You diaphragm has to such the water up rather than simply let it flow down.
Keep at it.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2013 - 01:54am PT
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Ken M, if you and I can come up with some instant cure for hiccups, we could make it rich. No it is not food or booze, maybe nerves. But I have been hicupping for over an hour now. Tried everything but standing on my head.
I've had excellent results with IV Chlorpromazine. Don't think I've seen it fail.
Here is a site with a lot of information:
http://www.fpnotebook.com/gi/sx/Hcp.htm
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2013 - 02:14am PT
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Ken M, the point I was trying to get across was that Armstrong hurt people for his own gain.
I totally agree. I also agree that almost all people do that same thing, to one degree or another. Very, very few people think in terms of step no. 8
Lance Armstrong hurt people. Period. He may have also helped people. When does the bad negate the good?
Judging people this way is a tough business. One in which we probably should not spend a lot of time involved in, when most of us have a messy porch, ourselves.
You repeatedly cite me as a supporter of LA. I am not. I AM a supporter of due process, of fairness, and equality, and of (small d) democratic values.
We don't get to vote him off the island, even if we shout.
Hey I was on the radio in Ireland a couple of times, recently. Good, informed interviewers.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2013 - 02:22am PT
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Cancer sucks.
You should know that, and yet, and perhaps I am wrong, you want to use it as a barb against me because it seems we disagree about Armstrong.
Patrick, what you seem to have your head up your @ss about, is attacking people with, or surviving cancer...on the basis of their cancer.
That's what you did with LA, and I think it is repugnant. If you think not, then just have your Jennie get onto the firing line, and lets have people publically attack her, on the basis of a disease almost certainly brought on by her, herself. I would think pretty ill of that, as well.
It is totally fair to attack LA on the basis of his cheating in bike races.
It is something else to attack him on the basis of his efforts for cancer.
You are going through a rough patch of life. But there are limits as to the freedom that gives you to attack any other person you want, for any other reason, acting like your sh*t doesn't stink.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2013 - 02:25am PT
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Make light about cancer in my family, if you will, but I am glad I am not one of your patients.
Lance Armstrong, whatever you may think, has ruined people's reputations and finances. If you think so highly of him, offer to be his doctor, I think it would suit.
This is an example of your B*llsh*t.
YOU brought your family history up. You post it, you live with the comments, buddy.
You want to attack my skills and credentials, fine, but don't be surprised when you get kicked in the teeth.
Your posts on LA, which simply repeat the same thing, over and over and over and over.....are just simply tiring and boring.
But when you digress into cancer, and medical competence, you just sound stupid.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2013 - 02:36am PT
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Although off-topic, someone challenges me on the issue of positive thinking in cancer, so here are some citations:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23178354
Outcomes of guided imagery in patients receiving radiation therapy for breast cancer.
"Overall, 86% of participants described the guided imagery sessions as helpful, and 100% said they would recommend the intervention to others. The results of this study illustrate the positive impact of guided imagery as measured through subjective and objective parameters. Improving the overall care for patients with breast cancer supports the value of incorporating practices of integrative oncology into standard practice."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22750906
Effect of art making on cancer-related symptoms of blood and marrow transplantation recipients.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22688373
A positive psychological intervention using virtual reality for patients with advanced cancer in a hospital setting
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22803255
Theoretical rationale for music selection in oncology intervention research: an integrative review.
"Music-based interventions have helped patients with cancer improve their quality of life, decrease treatment related distress, and manage pain."
There are hundreds of similar papers on such subjects. It is why virtually all cancer centers now include stress reduction therapy, and positive-imagry treatment.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 21, 2013 - 10:56am PT
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Ken M
An answer from someone:
What your remark to Patrick implied, was that "negative thinking" causes cancer. What the research you have linked indicates, is that "positive thinking" has a positive effect under the treatment of cancer that has already developed. That's two different situations. Your examples does not prove your point that "negative thinking" causes cancer. Your remark about "negative thinking" as a cause of cancer is not based on sound scientific thinking.
Thanks anyway - the articles have a value on their own right - OT!
Marlow
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 21, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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Marlow, I post what I have at hand.
As I say, there is a huge amount more. If you are interested, you may want to search on your own. Any one of my links takes you to a search engine on the medical literature.
I'll just say that the kind of research that you advocate, is essentially impossible to do.
What it would require is to have two groups WITHOUT cancer, one that participates in positive imagry, and one that does not. And neither they, nor the researchers can know who is in which group....so you have to have some sort of sham positive imagry....and I don't know of anything you could use.
And then you'd have to wait, for years and years and years, to see if there is a difference in CA incidence.
This kind of study would need to involve a VERY large number of research subjects, with massive interviewing to detect what they are actually doing, and it would have to go on for a long time...perhaps 10-20 years.
Such an undertaking would cost probably hundreds of millions of dollars.
Who would fund such a thing?
So we have an alternative: What does positive imagry do for people WITH cancer, compared to people who do not have cancer?
I agree it is not the same, but it does give insights into the process.
With such overwhelming evidence that positivity enhances outcomes in the vast majority of cancer victims, I would be rather crazy to discount positivity in the incidence of cancer.
Another line of thinking goes with the PROVED affect that stress has on the immune response...which is a negative effect. Since we seem to think that the emergence of cancer is a disfunction of the immune system, there seems to be a rather proven link here. One paper of thousands:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9251165
Besides, what if I'm wrong? People living their lives with positive thoughts is such a terrible outcome? Happiness is to be avoided?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 22, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
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Hey Ken M, let's not try and flame each other okay,
You have your views, and indeed credentials. If I have insulted you, I apologize.
But I have my views, are they any more worthier or less worthier than yours?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 28, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
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http://m.cbsnews.com/postwatch.rbml?pageType=video&cbsID=50139841
Says it all. IMHO
(edit - I don't think I put in sufficient description...
this is an interview of Trais Tygart, head of the US Anti Doping Agency.
Amoung other interesting tidbits, ALL of Lance teammates testified against him, he routinely fired team members that wouldn't dope. He routinely threatened anyone who testified about doping. Even threatened their girl friends. Anyway, listen to the thing. Nice to hear something that doesn't come out of Lances well oil PR machine. Tygart has even received death threats and has FBI protection.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 28, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
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r-mike
i don't know if i got it, but i think i didn't
switched browsers, got it now
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 28, 2013 - 11:19pm PT
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I'm not guilty!!!!
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 28, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
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the infamous bull by the horns no doubt
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Jan 28, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
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How Lance Does It: Put the Success Formula of a Champion into Everything You Do
One of the books in my Lance collection!
http://www.amazon.com/How-Lance-Does-Champion-Everything/dp/0071477403#_ ;
"’Lance hates losing, but is not afraid of it.’" This fearless approach gave Lance the freedom to take the risks required to achieve peak performance and to continue to seek improvement even while at the top of his sport."
--from How Lance Does It
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 29, 2013 - 12:13am PT
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This thread has finally jumped the shark, thanks to McHaley's Navel.
And I salute him. Extreme Ironing rules
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Jan 29, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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I bought a GoPro today. Now I'll be able to film more ironing.
Tour de Fraud; The thought that Lance got 'used' by the likes of the 'racing system' has circled around me for awhile. He was sure a great promotional 'tool' for the Tour de France - I mean Tour de Fraud. You could say he got the big ride. He's almost more the fool than the 'fans'. Did he really think none of what he did would ever come out? Did he think 'they' would protect him 'forever'? Lots of questions - it's interesting and yet vomit inducing.....lots of ironing there.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
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Lance Armstrong exclusive interview
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-exclusive-interview
By: Daniel BensonPublished: January 30, 14:33, Updated: January 30, 15American describes Pat McQuaid as 'pathetic'
Lance Armstrong has spoken for the first time since confessing that he doped to win the Tour de France, answering a series of questions put to him by Cyclingnews.
Armstrong reiterated that he feels a scapegoat for the doping issues that have dogged cycling but has called for WADA to set up a truth and reconciliation programme and states that the UCI should have no part in the process.
In this exclusive Q&A Armstrong tells Cyclingnews' Daniel Benson that “My generation was no different than any other. The 'help' has evolved over the years but the fact remains that our sport is damn hard, the Tour was invented as a 'stunt, and very tough mother f**kers have competed for a century and all looked for advantages.”
Cyclingnews: What was your family's reaction to your confession?
Lance Armstrong: They were well aware of what I was doing and going to say. They loved the interview. I was in Hawaii when it aired but my older kids and Kristin watched both nights live. We spoke immediately after both shows. What was said then I'll keep to myself.
CN: Did you protect Dr. Ferrari during your confession?
Armstrong: I wasn't 'protecting' anyone. I was there to speak about myself, my experiences, and my mistakes. No one else. I know that goes against what we have grown used to in the last few years in cycling but I'm only interested in owning up to my mistakes. I'm a big boy and I'm not in the blame game.
CN: Why do you believe that a Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) is the best way forward for cycling?
Armstrong: It's not the best way, it's the only way. As much as I'm the eye of the storm this is not about one man, one team, one director. This is about cycling and to be frank it's about ALL endurance sports. Publicly lynching one man and his team will not solve this problem.
CN: When and why did you come to this conclusion?
Armstrong: A long time ago. When I was on speaking terms with ol' Pat McQuaid many, many months ago I said, 'Pat, you better think bold here. A full blown, global, TRC is our sports best solution.' He wanted to hear nothing of it.
CN: If a TRC is to work, who should be called to testify? Every riders from your generation or those from before too? If a TRC looks at the 1990s shouldn't it also look at the years before your first Tour win?
Armstrong: It's not my place to set the parameters but if you're asking, I'd say that if you are alive today and you podiumed in a GT, WC, or Grand Tour then you should be called. Sounds ambitious but the authorities have proven that nothing with regards to cycling is time barred.
CN: Does TRC need to provide a complete amnesty?
Armstrong: Of course otherwise no one will show up. No one.
CN: Truth is easy to explain but what sort of reconciliation would you like personally and for others that help/testify?
Armstrong: Let's be honest, folks in my situation have their own selfish reasons. It's why we are here. Floyd felt singled out so therefore he went public amongst other things. Removing my selfishness, the fact remains that is the best thing for cycling.
CN: Would you hope that your ban was reduced if you testified to WADA?
Armstrong: That's irrelevant. What is relevant is that everyone is treated equally and fairly. We all made the mess, let's all fix the mess, and let's all be punished equally.
CN: Why WADA and not USADA?
Armstrong: No brainer. This is a global sport not an American one. One thing I'd add - the UCI has no place at the table.
CN: What's the alternative to TRC? It looks like the sport is now descending into chaos.
Armstrong: The alternative? Well, first let me say that cycling will never die it will just simmer. Zero growth. Sponsors leaving, races cancelled - this we are seeing. This current state of chaos and petty bullsh#t, tit for tat, etc, will just ensure that cycling goes flat or negative for a decade plus. Which is a real shame for the current crop of young pros the sport has.
CN: What do you say to the theory that Tygart stated: 'That for you, it's about eligibility to compete?'
Armstrong: That was Travis' stunt to make me look self-serving. When I met with him I told him, 'Yes, of course, I'd love to compete again. I'm a competitor.' However the truth is that it was more about equality and fairness. Letting some race the season then giving minor off seasons sanctions versus the death penalty (for similar offences) isn't fair and isn't about 'cleaning up cycling'. It's about getting your man.
CN: It's pretty clear to anyone with a brain that the UCI played the game and knew the score, yet Pat McQuaid said you had no place in cycling. How did that make you feel? What do you think of the UCI?
Armstrong: Pat is just in constant CYA (Cover Your Ass) mode. Pathetic.
CN: How much is the current level of hypocrisy a frustration for you?
Armstrong: Of course it's frustrating but it's cycling so it's not surprising.
CN: Do you feel like you're the fall guy for an entire sport/system?
Armstrong: Actually, yes I do. But I understand why. We all make the beds we sleep in.
CN: When you came into the sport, it probably wasn't to dope, it wasn't to cheat but at what point, specifically, did you realize that was how cycling worked and that the governing body weren't dealing with the situation?
Armstrong: My generation was no different than any other. The 'help' has evolved over the years but the fact remains that our sport is damn hard, the Tour was invented as a 'stunt, and very tough mother f**kers have competed for a century and all looked for advantages. From hopping on trains a 100 years ago to EPO now. No generation was exempt or 'clean'. Not Merckx's, not Hinault's, not LeMond's, not Coppi's, not Gimondi's, not Indurain's, not Anquetil's, not Bartali's, and not mine.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 30, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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Sure looks like Keith took him.
As I recall, Mr. Richards perdiodically went through cleansing.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 30, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
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Nope!
He is pedaling something different...LOL
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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I'm surprised that there isn't more speculation about just how much Armstrong is going to get away with here.
He's calculating and so are all his lawyers. My prediction is that he'll get away with far more than all those here would guess.
Point of reference, Claudine Longet (uninteresting note, but she's four years older than me). Remember her sentence was 30 days in the hole. If that's what you call this:
Also she settled out of court the wrongful death suit, with the provision that with the provision that Longet never tell or write about her story (I'm sure among others).
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Feb 20, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
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bump for lance Armstrong!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Feb 20, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
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So much has come out about doping in all sports, I'm going to lay off him. I was out riding yesterday and was channeling him - without the dope of course. The UCI made it possible anyway. Lots of our friends are doing HGH, testosterone, and etc. in amateur racing and regularly riding and daily life.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Feb 20, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
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Rob, that's so true!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Feb 20, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
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Best comment I heard on the radio...."Now we're going to see a lot of competitors walking bikes up hills"
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Feb 20, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
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Maybe won't see these times on the Alpe anymore, but no walking!!!
Rank Time Name Year Nationality Evidence/Allegations that the athlete engaged in doping during his career
1 37' 35" Marco Pantani 1997 Italy Alleged drug use during 1997 due to high hermatrocite levels
2* 37' 36" Lance Armstrong 2004 United States 2004 Tour de France title stripped by UCI in 2012
3 38' 00" Marco Pantani 1994 Italy Alleged drug use during 1994 due to high hermatrocite levels
4 38' 01" Lance Armstrong 2001 United States 2001 Tour de France title stripped by UCI in 2012
5 38' 04" Marco Pantani 1995 Italy Alleged drug use during 1995 due to high hermatrocite levels
6 38' 23" Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany Found guilty of doping in later career
7 38' 34" Floyd Landis 2006 United States Stripped of 2006 Tour de France title
8 38' 35" Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany Alleged doping during 2006 Tour de France
9* 38' 37" Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany Found guilty of doping in later career
10 39' 02" Richard Virenque 1997 France Admitted to doping in 2000
11 39' 06" Iban Mayo 2003 Spain Failed a test for EPO in 2007
12* 39' 17" Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany Alleged use of illegal blood transfusions in 2006
13* 39' 21" Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
14 39' 28" Miguel Induráin 1995 Spain
15 39' 28" Alex Zülle 1995 Switzerland Admitted taking EPO in 1998
16 39' 30" Bjarne Riis 1995 Denmark Alleged drug use during 1995 due to high hermatrocite levels
17 39' 31" Carlos Sastre 2008 Spain
18 39' 44" Gianni Bugno 1991 Italy
19 39' 45" Miguel Induráin 1991 Spain
20 40' 00" Jan Ullrich 2001 Germany Found guilty of doping in later career
21 40' 46" Fränk Schleck 2006 Luxembourg Tested positive for xipamide at the 2012 Tour de France
22 40' 51" Alexander Vinokourov 2003 Kazakhstan Failed a blood doping test in 2007
23 41' 18" Lance Armstrong 2003 United States 2003 Tour de France title stripped by USADA in 2012
24 41' 21" Samuel Sánchez 2011 Spain
25 41' 30" Alberto Contador 2011 Spain Tested positive for clenbuterol in 2010. After a 18 month court case he was retroactively banned for 2 years and therefore lost all 2011 results and titles
26 41' 46" Cadel Evans 2008 Australia
27 41' 50" Laurent Fignon 1989 France Admitted using amphetamines in 1989
28 41' 50" Luis Herrera 1987 Colombia
29 41' 57" Pierre Rolland 2011 France
30 42' 15" Pedro Delgado 1989 Spain Tested positive for a steroid-masking agent in 1988[17]
31 43' 12" Ryder Hesjedal 2011 Canada
32 43' 12" Thomas Danielson 2011 United States Admitted to doping in 2005-06
33 45' 20" Gert-Jan Theunisse 1989 Netherlands
34 45' 22" Fausto Coppi 1952 Italy
35 48' 00" Bernard Hinault 1986 France
36 48' 00" Greg Lemond 1986 United States
* The 2004 stage was an individual time trial.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Feb 20, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
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I'm going with #17 as #1, Carlos in '08.
OK....well....I guess I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Feb 22, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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Fuq Lance, he walked away from helping the sport that made him what he is (or actually what everyone else though he was and thereby made him a mega millionare).
What a dick.
Kudos to Tyler and Floyd...oh yes.
The young racers that are players now need Lance to come clean to help their futures. It's clear that the Omerta is still strong with many old timers with sway in the sport....like fuqing Ekimov.
No one else has the potential to do more good for the sport, so where the hell is he?
I repeat.."what a dick." And what arrogance.
Check this out.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/02/news/sources-feds-will-reverse-course-and-join-landis-suit_275504
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
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There may be a bigger impact on cleaning up the sport if he drags it out. Gives more time for more info to come out to take the UCI down. He was allowed to do what he did.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Feb 22, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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I'm going with number 18, Gianni Bugno.....Buns of steel and now flying rescue chopper in the dolomites...He's probably met the Chief at some point in time....RJ
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Feb 22, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
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DR.F. I agree 100%.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Oct 10, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
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Just what was Sheryl Crow going to be charged with?
Yanqui si, gestapo no! No?
Apparently, when federal agents approached Crow in 2011, she was reportedly offered a deal to avoid prosecution by telling what she'd seen. The Washington Post reported that, according to the book, Crow then told a Food and Drug Administration investigator that she'd seen her ex receiving the illegal transfusion.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Oct 10, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
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All inteteresting guesses, but as far as I can discern Crow never testified before a grand jury, nor any other jury. Likewise, there appears to be no occasion where she testified under oath, thus no perjury.
Clearly this is just brown-shirt bullying at it's worst.
Conspiracy is a great catch all, used whenever there is no good evidence of any other chargeable offense.
Armstrong's relationship with Sheryl Crow was revealed in detail in Coyle's 2005 book, Lance Armstrong's War. In the newer tome, a footnote claims that Crow "was subpoenaed weeks before the grand jury probe's closure."
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 10, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
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Read Tyler Hamilton's The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France
It's a gripping and constantly interesting read--at least for me. Lance still comes across as a dic*, but you have more sympathy for doping in general. For Tyler, certainly, and I guess for most of the riders doing it, it was dope or go home--not something easily done after you've spent half your life getting to that point. Check it out.
BAds
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Oct 11, 2013 - 06:05am PT
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Name someone in that era that was clean. Hell, name ANYONE from the Merkcc era forward that was clean, ans I mean of ANY drug, because amphetamines were in common use for decades in the pro peloton.
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mitchy
Trad climber
new england
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Oct 11, 2013 - 11:30am PT
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Haters gonna hate. Lance Armstrong was railroaded, just because he was kickin' everybody's ass for so long. It's too bad. He was a hell of a cyclist.
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Oct 11, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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Almost anyone would agree that there was (still is, IMO) a problem with doping during the "Lance" era. For that, he probably only deserves extra scrutiny for his doping because he had big $$$$ and that meant he had the best drugs, advice and options for using them. It would be even more scandalous if there was evidence that the UCI itself was complicit (McQuaid is his own version of a**hole) in covering up Lance's doping positives.
Lance isn't getting trashed because everyone's a "hater". He is getting trashed now because he acted like vermin and was a borderline sociopath towards anyone that dared to disagree with his version of the truth. And he deserves it (again, my own opinion). The dude walked away with $100 million that he cheated and lied for...what's not to hate, frankly?
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 11, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
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He's still got one sponsor.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 11, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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Hehe... Organic Cherry Blossom... for organic dopeheads...
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Nov 22, 2014 - 11:29am PT
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This is a good read.
Clif Bar's Solo Climb;
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2004/12/01/8192527/
" In the late '90s, when few cared who won the Tour de France, Clif Bar had sponsored Lance Armstrong and two dozen other members of the U.S. Postal Service cycling team. But in 2001, when Armstrong came back from cancer to nail his third Tour win, PowerBar offered Armstrong $400,000 a year, 10 times what the team had been getting from Clif. Clif couldn't match it and lost the deal. "
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Nov 22, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
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Lance isn't getting trashed because everyone's a "hater". He is getting trashed now because he acted like vermin and was a borderline sociopath towards anyone that dared to disagree with his version of the truth. And he deserves it (again, my own opinion). The dude walked away with $100 million that he cheated and lied for...what's not to hate, frankly?
Bingo. Had Armstrong been contrite, come clean and taken full responsibility early in this final investigation, things might have gone differently for him in the long run. He's toast, now. I can never see him garnering any public support ever again in any form.
Aside from whiny LeMond, have any of the past TdF winners (pre-Lance) come out and trashed him? I'd imagine that they are fairly guilty of riding dirty, too.
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