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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 13, 2009 - 10:53am PT
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"Polling data show that Mr. Obama's approval rating is dropping and is below where George W. Bush was in an analogous period in 2001. Rasmussen Reports data shows that Mr. Obama's net presidential approval rating -- which is calculated by subtracting the number who strongly disapprove from the number who strongly approve -- is just six, his lowest rating to date."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123690358175013837.html
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2009 - 11:35am PT
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Could it be:
Broken promise No. 1: Sunlight Before Signing
Broken promise No. 2: Capital gains tax elimination
Broken promise No. 3: New American jobs tax credit
Broken promise No. 4: Hiatus on 401(k) penalties
Broken promise No. 5: 'No jobs for lobbyists'
Broken promise No. 6: Earmark reform
Broken promise No. 7: Bring troops home in 16 months
Broken promise No. 8: Sign Freedom of Choice Act
Broken promise No. 9: Transparency
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 13, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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i took your advice andanother but don't comprehend your criticism of the original post...i can understand you don't like the polling numbers or the wsj's interpretation, but jpt's quotation fairly sums up the article
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Could it be Obama’s lack of vetting; this is just the tax cheats-
Former Dallas mayor Ron Kirk owes an estimated $10,000 in back taxes from earlier in the decade and has agreed to pay them.
Tim Geithner' had to pay more than $34,000 in back taxes and interest on income he made while working for the International Monetary Fund.
Former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle then withdrew as a nominee after it was disclosed that he failed to pay $128,000 in taxes.
Nancy Killefer, Obama's pick for chief performance officer, also bowed out amid tax problems.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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The facts do not appear to bear out your premise, in fact the oppposite: Same time,date, after some 50 days in office, mid March Bush 58%, Obama 63%.
From this website: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/data/popularity.php
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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norton, it's not jpt's premise; the quoted/linked article was written by rasmussen himself
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Bookworm, you are right. And clearly if one searches, you can find fresh data that supports your bias poltical viewpoint, as he did, and I did.
Lets see if Obama can beat the pathetic attitude of the American public towards W toward the end of his time in office.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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It's time for the power of positive thinking. Everything is getting better! Tony Robbins told me so.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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If anyone can provide me specifics of what previous administrations accomplished in their first two months I would love to hear it.
From PolitFact.com:
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 15: Create a $10 billion fund to help homeowners refinance or sell their
homes. "The Fund will not help speculators, people who bought vacation
homes or people who falsely represented their incomes."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 40: Extend and index the temporary fix to the Alternative Minimum Tax that was passed in 2007
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 58: "Expand eligibility for the Medicaid and SCHIP programs and ensure that
these programs continue to serve their critical safety net function.
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 125: On "my first day in office, I would give the military a new mission: ending this war".
Promise Kept
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 134: "As Obama removes our combat brigades from Iraq, he will send at least two additional brigades to Afghanistan, where the Taliban is resurgent.
He will also provide our armed forces with the reset capability that they need. He will replace essential equipment, and he will ensure that
our men and women in uniform get the care and support they have earned."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 239: "Will nullify the Bush attempts to make the timely release of presidential records more difficult."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 241:
"Will issue an executive order asking all new hires at the agencies to
sign a form affirming that no political appointee offered them the job
solely on the basis of political affiliation or contribution."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 278:
"Will place a high priority on implementing cooperative projects to remove brush, small trees and other overgrown vegetation that serve as
fuel for wildfires. Barack Obama will focus the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management's efforts on working with local communities on hazardous fuels projects to make communities safer and forests healthier."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 327:
Will "support increased funding for the National Endowment for the Arts, the support of which enriches schools and neighborhoods all
across the nation and helps to promote the economic development of countless communities .
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 411 :"Obama will work to overturn the Supreme Court's recent ruling that curtails racial minorities' and women's ability to challenge pay discrimination."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 427: "Barack Obama will issue an executive order banning registered lobbyists or lobbying firms from giving gifts in any amount or any form
to executive branch employees."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 452: "Will make a national commitment to weatherize at least 1 million low-income homes each year for the next decade, which can reduce energy
usage across the economy and help moderate energy prices for all."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 458:"We'll invest in research in every form of alternative energy - solar, wind, biofuels."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 480:Will "Support development of high-speed rail networks across the country. Providing passengers with safe high-speed rail will have
significant environmental and metropolitan planning advantages and help diversify our nation's transportation infrastructure. Our domestic rail freight capacity must also be strengthened because our demand for rail
transportation has never been greater, leaving many key transportation hubs stretched to capacity. Obama and Biden are committed to renewing the federal government's commitment to high speed rail so that our nation's transportation infrastructure continues to support, and not hinder, our nation's long-term economic growth."
Promise Kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 507: "Obama and Biden believe Congress should immediately extend unemployment insurance for an additional 13 weeks to help families that
are being hit hardest by this downturn. In addition, they believe we should temporarily suspend taxes on unemployment insurance benefits as a way of giving more relief to families."
Promise kept.
Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 513: "I believe that the restrictions that President Bush has placed on funding of human embryonic stem cell research have handcuffed our
scientists and hindered our ability to compete with other nations. As president, I will lift the current administration's ban on federal
funding of research on embryonic stem cell lines created after August 9, 2001 through executive order ... .."
Promise Kept.
For additional specifics on how these promises have been kept, what promises have been broken to date and what promises have had no action to date, please click on this link.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-kept/
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apogee
climber
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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Norton- andanother & I posted to this thread about an hour ago, and mutually agreed to abandon it and delete our posts so as to allow jpt, bookworm, and all the other whining righties to have it all to themselves, or better yet, allow the the thread to die.
Join the movement- delete your post!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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Apogee, isn't that akin to putting your fingers in your ears and saying,'Lalalallalalala, I can't hear you"?
Childish, no?
Maybe you'd also like to censor speech you disagree with.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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I believe in free speech myself. Does "Just Passing Thru" refer to something lodged in the said posters colon? Perhaps like his head? Then it would not be "Just Passing Thru" it would be "Head lodged in Ass". I think that is perhaps more appropriate and "fitting" so to speak.
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apogee
climber
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Mar 13, 2009 - 12:56pm PT
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"Apogee, isn't that akin to putting your fingers in your ears and saying,'Lalalallalalala, I can't hear you"?
Childish, no?"
Yes, it is childish. That's why it's so much fun!
I'm outta here- goin' skiin' for the weekend with my gal. I'll leave you to it!
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 13, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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JPT-Bookworm-Bluering = political circle jerk.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Let's suppose I was a supporter of Attila the Hun. Further let's suppose I am in a nation Attila had invaded, destroyed and had caused all the women and even half the men( the cute ones) to be raped - several times. Now suppose I am standing in the square proclaiming that before Attila had gotten into the raping he had been a couple points more popular than his successor who was presently buried up to his neck in problems associated with rampant STD's.
How do you suppose the rapee's all around me will receive my proclamations?
Skeptically?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 13, 2009 - 01:38pm PT
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this rush limbaugh puppet.
you are trying to rip a hole in a tightly woven fabric:
a nation (and world) of observant and fed-up people, united under a leader who issues flaire of integrity and sincere concern for our countries' (and the world's) well being.
you will continue to flail about widlely in a panick with your accusatory tid-bits and internet factoids, as you watch your republican idealogy wither towards extinction.
just like your type did during the election.
face it man. the eyes and hearts of the world have been opened and disgusted by your hero george w. bush.
he let so many people down, and failed in so many capacities, that the damage inflicted to your party is irreversible.
a new era will continue to unfold and progress despite your tantrum.
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 13, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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If you think McCain and Palin would have been better you've gotta be joking. If you think Republicans controlling things would be better you gotta be joking. If you hope for anything better than mediocrity from our government no matter who is in power, you gotta be joking.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 13, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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Yeah, let's impeach the lying f*#k for not changing the world after 9 weeks.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 13, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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Come back with this one in 7.5 years [...ya f'n retard].
I'm thinking dealing with the present economy is a less glamourous job than hanging out at some ranch in Texas 8 years ago. But then, that's just me thinking.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Mar 13, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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yah.. he's been in office how long now? and we're casting aspersions now?
... and with the pace of government (that we all should know can be very slow in process)....
I think someone needs to read a book, or turn off the TV in order to extend the attention span just a bit....
good luck
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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Do I sense a faint whif of skepticism here?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 13, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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Yippee, a right-wing circle jerk.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Mar 13, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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Patrick.... It just turned into a right-winged cho-cho-train.
I'd hate to be the kaboose.
though I guess the tell-tale sign is he's got all the right-wingers panties all up in a bunch so he must be doing a good job.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Here's your caboose:
"The cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and states of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on ... If Washington were serious about honest tax relief in this country, we'd see an effort to reduce our national debt by returning to responsible fiscal policies."
 Barack Obama, Speech in the U.S. Senate, March 13, 2006
http://origin.barackobama.com/issues/
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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"net presidential approval rating -- which is calculated by subtracting the number who strongly disapprove from the number who strongly approve"
Look at how the number was caculated. What it mainly means is that the Republicans who dislike Obama hate him more than did the Democrats who disliked Bush.
The Republicans who hate Obama, don't hate him for anything Obama has done as President, but rather for who he is. And a significant lunatic fringe (many but not all of whom are Republicans) especially hate Obama because he is black. It really won't matter how smart he is or what he does or says, they'll still hate him.
Then there are the far-left liberals who believed McCain's lies about Obama being a radical, even though Obama was campaigning as a moderate. Now he is acting as a moderate but they feel betrayed.
Also don't forget that Clinton left Bush an economy in much better shape then the economy Bush left Obama with.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 07:57pm PT
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"I can't believe how he said a whole bunch of things and then turned around and did precisely the opposite."
You didn't like him and you didn't vote for him, so it's not surprising you disagree with him. But he's mostly doing just what he said he would do. and now you still don't like him.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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"especially hate Obama because he is black."
-GC
You don't know sh#t.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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Let's put this thread in its proper context.
Read what Ed Rollins wrote only a week ago. Ed Rollins was political director for Ronald Reagen and national chairman of Huckabee's campaign.
The battle to be the "de facto leader" of this party is akin to the question of who wants to steer the Titanic after it hit the iceberg. Who represents the party or its values is not relevant when only 26 percent of voters have a positive impression of the party at all and only 7 percent very positive, according to the latest Wall Street Journal/NBC News survey.
The Democratic Party is the reverse, with 49 percent positive. When 60 percent of the country approves of the job President Obama is doing, every Republican leader is going backward.
Republicans are not relevant. We just lost two back-to-back elections (2006 and 2008), and obviously, what we are selling, the voters aren't buying. In the midst of the most severe economic crisis in my lifetime, we have a president who is taking the country on a dramatic sea change. This is what he said he would do and he is doing it. And where are Republicans? Right now we don't have the alternative ideas, a message or, more important, the messenger.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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GC is spot on.
I spent last weekend with my SO's family, who spent the time bashing dems. Card carrying Repubs, all of them. I of course kept quiet as they repeatedly referred to Obama as the colored guy.
I don't think they are so unusual.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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How did the Republican Party go from being the Party of Lincoln to the Party of Limbaugh?
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Ha Ha
Keep talking about Limbaugh and racist Republicans all you want
This is what people are talking about:
Broken promise No. 1: Sunlight Before Signing
Broken promise No. 2: Capital gains tax elimination
Broken promise No. 3: New American jobs tax credit
Broken promise No. 4: Hiatus on 401(k) penalties
Broken promise No. 5: 'No jobs for lobbyists'
Broken promise No. 6: Earmark reform
Broken promise No. 7: Bring troops home in 16 months
Broken promise No. 8: Sign Freedom of Choice Act
Broken promise No. 9: Transparency
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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Lois, you were correct about having to put people on suicide watch and add prozac to the drinking water after the election, but for the wrong reasons! http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=673558&msg=674126#msg674126
It's going to be a very long eight years for the Limbaugh Republicans. I hate to admit it but all the whining is music to my ears.
If you think that Republicans are unhappy now, just wait until we're two or three years into Obama's first term.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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when i want my politics i goto politards.com....way better
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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JPT, in my profession, we call your pathology passive aggressive.
You don't mind lying, and you don't respond when people call you on it.
You have your list, and it is NOT what people are talking about. The ECONOMY is what people are talking about.
The ECONOMY, which was not a problem during most of the campaign when Obama laid out his positions.
I understand that you want to have him stand aside from dealing with the ECONOMY, which he inherited from your hero, and try to do all the things that he said that he would try to do, instantaneously.
But, unlike the 7 minutes when Bush could not change directions, with the country under attack, Obama is not just sitting there. He is doing something, everyday. People see that, and that is why they are talking about the ECONOMY, and it is why his approval rating is so high in this time of trouble. He is seen to be leading, and not sitting there while planes hit buildings.
You say that he has broken a promise, when he has not signed a bill that has not been presented to him by Congress? You call that broken? I know that they were talking about you when they said: "it's the ECONOMY, stupid."
LEB, you NEVER intended to give Obama an honest chance..... you SAID he would be a disaster, and now you say he is a disaster, without providing any specifics. He appears to be doing exactly what he said he would do, in the confines of the Bush Recession. go back to your kitchen, where Rush thinks you belong, when you aren't writing scrips for his narcotics.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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Come on Skipt. Posting graphics is fun.
Here's one you might like back from a few months ago when it was the Dem's turn to whine. It's better then the one I just posted.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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Just keep following your messiah!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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"There is going to be a whole bunch of disillusioned Dems right along along side their buddies - all in distress."
There are already some disillusioned far-left Dems. They believed the Republican hype about Obama being a far-left radical or a messiah. They should have listed to Obama, because Obama is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. Most Dems are very happy.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Republican National Convention, 2012, after approving the Limbaugh-Palin ticket.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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After the Republican concession speechs - 2010 midterm elections.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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Leb, you really do not speak for Democrats because, well, you aren't one.
I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, one of the most "far left" areas in the country, and I can tell you that you are wrong.
Obama has not lost any of us far lefties, in fact the opposite, we are absolutely delighted with him.
Please, we know your bias, speak for yourself, and not us.
Thank you
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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GOP National Committee Web Site 2009
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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please don't feed the trolls.
Sheesh.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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Did someone say this thread was off-topic? Not anymore.
The GOP blows the crux.
That's enough for now!
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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thanks for your insights skip....
reminds me of poli sci 210....
edit: prolly shouldn't biten into the sh#t sandwich in the first place....sorry, i'll leave, that way everyone can get a bite!
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 13, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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no worries skip....
guess i don't post on these crazy poli threads, cause its always a bicker fest....
in college....it seemed like more of discussion, more than people repeating themselves over and over trying to push there ideas on you. (although i don't really follow any of these threads, but it does seem to be the trend)
although you'd always get the kid who wouldn't shut up....
cheers,
im off to a BBQ (better than this sh#t sandwich of a thread), ill have a beer for ya!
edit: ya figured...no worries...back to the OW threads for me....
any of you poli posters post on topic?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 13, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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This is a typical Taco political thread. We're climbing in different directions but its still fun.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 13, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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P Kingsbury, you're welcome on the poli threads. Your climbing insane unside down OW monkey-stuff is equally welcome.
I do post on-topic stuff too, I'm sure you've seen it. The disussions here are awesome though on OT sh#t. Ya gotta admit that, even if they do bump other sh#t.
I kinda dig it and your insights are welcome on poli threads. The more discussion the better, no?
Cheers.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:34am PT
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thanks bluering!
i know you post on topic all the time...(one of the few kingsbury thread followers!!! booyaa!!1)
i guess i've been out of the political thread loop for a little while now. (actually the whole time on the taco....)
and for the moment don't have any points to argue...
but this just came to mind randomly.....
how about the online gambling bill being attached to the homeland security bill (a bill that wouldn't fail?!?), not that i'm against it, since it made my livelyhood this last year....
food for thought....
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 09:58am PT
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it is entertaining to watch these little people try to argue their case and kick and scream that they are right.
when in blunt reality the nation and world, i.e. majority, are whispering thru action that they are grossely in the wrong.
and now they see and feel a populace of uplifted and hopeful people and their tantrum intensifies.
kinda like my 3 year old, when she doesn't like what she sees and hears.
carry on your desperate and frantic attempt for traction into the erroneous past, just passing thru, etc.
the rest of us will continue to propel forward, gaining momemtum each day.
and burying your outdated, immature, tried and failed ideas.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Mar 14, 2009 - 10:14am PT
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don't know what you learned in Poly Sci 210.
But, respecting the topic obviously wasn't one of them.
LOL!!!
The internet is serious business...
dudes, the brotherman can rile y'all up without even barely trying...too funny.
Off to go get some pitches in....in the meantime I hope y'all can get the worlds problems sorted out and blamed on someone/something...we are counting on you...this is important business, and I'm glad y'all are using the correct outlets to be heard...
Good luck! (Though I truly hope y'all get outside today...)
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 14, 2009 - 10:28am PT
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i thought politics was about avoiding the topic? you know the old double talk sh#t like palin in the debates (that sh#t was so funny!!) so i thought i was on par.....
here's a quote i heard on topic for ya-
'it's crazy to think president bush is going to go down in history as the worst president this nation has ever had; which is crazy since his son is possibly the best president this nation has ever had' ~fat mike razzing some liberals
edit: does staying on topic involve dissecting every post i make?
cause if it is you kick ass at staying on topic skip!!!
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 14, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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please stay on topic skip....
start your on kingsbury thread if ya want ;)
edit:
no way in hell obama goes down as a bigger piece of sh#t than bush....no way
double edit: dam skip! all you do is troll this thread....u posted almost every other hour for 24! or just respond every time i post...
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Mar 14, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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There is no question that bush is more popular than Obama.
P#ssy versus a politician?
Of course, the Skipper would choose anything politics over everything else.
Time to go fondle the virgin granite with the Kingsbury Bros.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 14, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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so how'd obama blow the budget....or wait it was bush...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 14, 2009 - 11:03am PT
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yo skippy,
go climb a rock.
might unbunch yer
panties fer a spell.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 14, 2009 - 11:13am PT
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sure don't seem
like it.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 14, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 14, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Why the GOP Should Shut Up
Six out of the top 10 Senate earmark hogs are Republicans.
By Timothy NoahPosted Thursday, March 12, 2009, at 5:49 PM ET
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., wants you to know that he voted against the $410 billion spending bill President Obama signed into law on March 11. His fellow Republicans "tried to cut the bill's cost. Our ideas would have saved billions of taxpayer dollars. Unfortunately, every one was turned aside." Well, not every one. According to this spreadsheet prepared by Taxpayers for Common Sense, the spending bill incorporates 53 ideas put forth by McConnell himself in the form of legislative earmarks. Far from lowering the spending bill's cost, they increased it by $76 million.
Compared with his fellow Republicans, McConnell is a relative piker. Here is a list of the Senate's 10 biggest earmark hogs, based on dollar amounts in the spending bill:
1. Thad Cochran, R-Miss.: $474 million
2. Roger Wicker, R-Miss.: $391 million
3. Mary Landrieu, D-La.: $332 million
4. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa: $292 million
5. David Vitter, R-La.: $249 million
6. Christopher Bond, R-Mo.: $248 million
7. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.: $235 million
8. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii: $225 million
9. Richard Shelby, R-Ala.: $219 million
10. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa: $199 million
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 14, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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All in good time, Skipt. Rome was not built overnight.
Saving the economy had to take precedence over conrolling earmarks. When the city is burning down you don't make the firetrucks go through checkpoints.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Mar 14, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Most of the people who voted for him are happy with him. We've seen plenty of change in the last three months and we'll see plenty more.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Mar 14, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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It has recently come to my attention that collectivism is a growing threat to society and should be outlawed. But before I continue, allow me to explain that whenever I turn around I see Mr. Whiney The Republikat destroying our moral fiber. To deny such a truth would be to deny the evidence of our own senses. He flaunts his personal codices and attitudes in front of everyone else. There's really no other conclusion you can reach. He is attracted to Trotskyism like a moth to a candle. I wish I could put it more delicately but that would miss the point.
If anything will free us from the shackles of Mr. Republikat's clumsy, coldhearted writings, it's knowledge of the world as it really is. It's knowledge that relative to just a few years ago, brazen misers are nearly ten times as likely to believe that he is the arbiter of all things. This is neither a coincidence nor simply a sign of the times. Rather, it reflects a sophisticated, psychological warfare program designed by Mr. Republikat to rob, steal, cheat, and murder.
The acid test for Mr. Republikat's "kinder, gentler" new invectives should be, "Do they still create a beachhead for organized despotism?" If the answer is yes then we can conclude that Mr. Republikat insists that his double standards are good for the environment, human rights, and baby seals. In the long run, however, he's only fooling himself. Mr. Republikat would be better off if he just admitted to himself that in order to convince us that his dastardly, gormless terrorist organization is a benign and charitable agency, Mr. Republikat often turns to the old propagandist trick of comparing results brought about by entirely dissimilar causes. If one could get a Ph.D. in Resistentialism, Mr. Republikat would be the first in line to have one.
Mr. Republikat's diatribes are a cancer that is slowly eating away at our flesh. If you don't believe me, see for yourself. Some people think that my prime directive is to express our concerns about Mr. Republikat's detestable propositions. Others believe that I will never identify with argumentative undesirables. The truth lies somewhere in between, namely, that he is absolutely determined to believe that courtesy and manners don't count for anything, and he's not about to let facts or reason get in his way.
Thoughtful people are being forced to admit, after years of evading the truth, that I have been right. I was right when I said that failure to define our terms more clearly will lead to a deluge of complaints by Mr. Republikat's agents provocateurs. I was right when I said that selling short-sighted loonies on antidisestablishmentarianism has been a Golconda for Mr. Republikat. And I was right when I said that there are many illustrations of this. Mr. Republikat may mean well but his truculent dream is starting to come true. Liberties are being killed by attrition. Snobbism is being installed by accretion. The only way that we can reverse these improvident trends is to attack Mr. Republikat's malice and hypocrisy. To be precise, there may be absolutely nothing we can do to prevent him from making good on his word to devise lecherous scams to get money for nothing. When we compare this disturbing conclusion to the comforting picture purveyed by his hirelings, we experience psychological stress or "cognitive dissonance". Our only recourse is to raise issues, as opposed to guns or knives.
Why does absenteeism exist? What causes it? And when Mr. Republikat promotes one social program after the next to take care of some segment of society, is he doing it for that segment of society or is he doing it because he seeks power and position? To understand the answers to those questions, you first have to realize that I want to tell you a little bit about Mr. Republikat and his selfish indiscretions. I want to do this not because I need to tack another line onto my résumé but because Mr. Republikat's factotums all look like Mr. Republikat, think like Mr. Republikat, act like Mr. Republikat, and embark on wholesale torture and slaughter of innocent civilians, just like Mr. Republikat does. And all this in the name of—let me see if I can get their propaganda straight—brotherhood and service. Ha!
Mr. Republikat dreams of a time when he'll be free to pamper corrupt ranters. That's the way he's planned it and that's the way it'll happen—not may happen but will happen—if we don't interfere, if we don't make him answer for his wrongdoings. One of the great mysteries of modern life is, Why doesn't he reveal the truth about himself? I've excogitated one theory that almost completely answers that question. Unfortunately, it fails to take into account that Mr. Republikat uses the word "superincomprehensibleness" to justify causing riots in the streets. In doing so, he is reversing the meaning of that word as a means of disguising the fact that his zealots all have serious personal problems. In fact, the way Mr. Republikat keeps them loyal to him is by encouraging and exacerbating these problems rather than by helping to overcome them.
The simple, regrettable truth is that Mr. Republikat, already oppressive with his infernal publications, will perhaps be the ultimate exterminator of our human species—if separate species we be—for his reserve of unguessed horrors could never be borne by mortal brains if loosed upon the world. If you think that that's a frightening thought then consider that I want to see all of us working together to maintain social tranquillity. Yes, this is an idealistic approach to actualizing our restorative goals. Nevertheless, you should realize that Mr. Republikat is secretly planning to make serious dialogue difficult or impossible. I realize that that may sound rather conspiratorial and farfetched to most people, which is why you need to understand that I recently heard Mr. Republikat tell a bunch of people that he is the way, the truth, and the light. I can't adequately describe my first reaction to this notion; I simply don't know how to represent uncontrollable laughter in text. I can certainly suggest how Mr. Republikat ought to behave. Ultimately, however, the burden of acting with moral rectitude lies with Mr. Republikat himself.
On theoretical grounds alone, Mr. Republikat's statements are so filled with errors that I feel some futility in replying to them. Let me express that same thought in slightly different terms: Mr. Republikat commonly appoints ineffective people to important positions. He then ensures that these people stay in those positions because that makes it easy for Mr. Republikat to force me to undergo "treatment" to cure my "problem". He speaks like a true defender of the status quo—a status quo, we should not forget, that enables him to abet ethnic genocide, dictatorships, and snarky, uppity rotters.
It has long been obvious to attentive observers that none of Mr. Republikat's "progressive" ideas have actually resulted in any progress. But did you know that his recourse to parasitism as a tactical modality for waging low-intensity warfare has been successful? He doesn't want you to know that because he has, on a number of occasions, expressed a desire to interfere with my efforts to reinforce the contentions of all reasonable people and confute those of uneducated oligarchs. On all of these occasions, I submitted to the advice of my friends, who assured me that he cannot tolerate the world as it is. He needs to live in a world of fantasies. To be more specific, if you read Mr. Republikat's writings while mentally out of focus, you may get the sense that Mr. Republikat should tell everyone else what to do because "it's the right thing to do". But if you read Mr. Republikat's writings while mentally in focus and weigh each point carefully, it's clear that his thralls have tried repeatedly to assure me that he will eventually tire of his plan to spit on sacred icons and will then step aside and let us stop this insanity. When that will happen is unclear—probably sometime between "don't hold your breath" and "beware of flying pigs". Let me end by saying that I know that what I have written in this letter will send many readers (especially any who are big fans of Mr. Whiney The Republikat) into a tizzy or a tantrum. I am sorry, but I remind them that Mr. Republikat accepts superstition for science, hokum and magic for medicine, monotone chanting for music, and lethargic passivity in lieu of discovery and inquiry.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 14, 2009 - 01:04pm PT
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Skippy
It took George W. 8 years to destroy America's economy and create an enormous debt(he spent more money and greater debt then all the previous American presidents in history combined), and you expect Obama to rebuild the economy in 2 months? and you talk about Obama spending????
Are you dealing with reality dude? Because you might want to try it, its a big world out there.
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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Mar 14, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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I know that it's ever gratfying to "spray away" one's frustrations online, but at the risk of being flamed you know we could always put aside the rants & have a rational, yeah even productive discussion of the present & relevant issues.
Just sayin'....
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 14, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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c'mon skippy,
go climbing.
you'll ferget all
about how great
your leader obama
is.
try it on some
rocks, it's even
better.
gone climbing 'till
the sun goes down!!!
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Mar 14, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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I doubt "W" was ever popular...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 14, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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Hi Skip, hey good going, you found an Obama gaff to support your bias that he is lacking in sufficient intelligence.
Here are just a few from McCain, who you voted for and hold so highly in regard. Just to be "fair and balanced", right?
"I think she's most qualified of any that has run recently for vice president, tell you the truth." --on Sarah Palin, interview with Don Imus, Oct. 22, 2008
"I might have to rely on a vice president that I select’ for expertise on economic issues." --GOP debate, Nov. 28, 2007
"Rates were c*nt in the Bush years." --committing a freudian slip while campaigning in Manchester, NH, Oct. 22, 2008 (Watch video clip)
"You know, I think you may have noticed that Senator Obama's supporters have been saying some pretty nasty things about Western Pennsylvania lately. And you know, I couldn't agree with them more. I couldn't disagree with you. I couldn't agree with you more than the fact that Western Pennsylvania is the most patriotic, most god-loving, most, most patriotic part of America, and this is a great part of the country." --Moon Township, Penn., Oct. 21, 2008 (Watch video clip)
"He's (for) health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything. That's the extreme pro-abortion position, quote, 'health.'" --mocking Obama's support for protection of a mother's health in abortion decisions, presidential debate, Long Island, New York, Oct. 15, 2008 (Watch video clip)
"My friends, we've got them just where we want them." --on Barack Obama and the state of the presidential campaign, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Oct. 13, 2008
"Across this country this is the agenda I have set before my fellow prisoners. And the same standards of clarity and candor must now be applied to my opponent." --Bethlehem, Penn., Oct. 8, 2008 (Watch video clip)
"There was an energy bill on the floor of the Senate loaded down with goodies, billions for the oil companies, and it was sponsored by Bush and Cheney. You know who voted for it? You might never know. That one." --referring to Barack Obama during the second presidential debate, Nashville, Tenn., Oct. 7, 2008 (Watch video)
"Not you, Tom." --to debate moderator Tom Brokaw, after being asked who he might name as Treasury Secretary in his administration, Nashville, Tenn., Oct. 7, 2008
"I have not had a chance to see it in writing, so I have to examine it.'" --on the Bush administration's Wall Street bailout plan, which was a three-page document that McCain said he received the day before, interview with WKYC in Cleveland, Sept. 23, 2008
"Sure. Technically, I don't know." --asked if the U.S. is in a recession, "60 Minutes" interview, Sept. 21, 2008
"The chairman of the SEC serves at the appointment of the president and, in my view, has betrayed the public's trust. If I were president today, I would fire him." --apparently unaware of the fact that the SEC chairman, as a commissioner of an independent regulatory commission, cannot be removed by the president, Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Sept. 18, 2008
"Honestly, I have to analyze our relationships, situations and priorities, but I can assure you that I will establish closer relationships with our friends, and I will stand up to those who want to harm the United States. ... I have a clear record of working with leaders in the hemisphere that are friends with us and standing up to those who are not. And that's judged on the basis of the importance of our relationship with Latin America and the entire region." --after being asked if he would invite Spanish President Jose Rodriguez Louis Zapatero to the White House, casting an ally of the U.S. as a potential enemy while simultaneously confusing Spain for a Latin American country, interview with Radio Caracol Miami, Sept. 17, 2008
"I also know, if I might remind you, that she is commander of the Alaska National Guard. In fact, you may know that on Sept. 11 a large contingent of the Alaska Guard deployed to Iraq and her son happened to be one of them. So I think she understands our national security challenges." --touting Sarah Palin's foreign policy credentials by confusing the Alaska National Guard with the U.S. Army, where Palin's son is currently serving, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Sept. 17, 2008
"I understand the economy. I was chairman of the Commerce Committee that oversights every part of our economy." --ignoring the fact that it is actually the Senate Banking Committee which is responsible for credit, financial services, and housing -- the very areas currently in crisis, CNBC interview, Sept. 16, 2008
"Our economy, I think, is still -- the fundamentals of our economy are strong." --Jacksonville, Fla., Sept. 15, 2008
"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation." --in the Sept./Oct. issue of Contingencies
"[Sarah Palin] knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America. ... And, uh, she also happens to represent, be governor of a state that's right next to Russia." --after being asked about Sarah Palin's foreign policy experience, interview with WCSH-6, Portland, OR, Sept. 12, 2008
"It's easy for me to go to Washington and, frankly, be somewhat divorced from the day-to-day challenges people have." --speaking at the ServiceNation forum in New York, Sept. 11, 2008
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Top ten John McCain's brilliant, well reasoned statements.
10. "I was looking at the Sturgis schedule, and noticed that you had a beauty pageant, so I encouraged Cindy to compete. I told her [that] with a little luck, she could be the only woman to serve as both the First Lady and Miss Buffalo Chip." --on the annual Miss Buffalo Chip Pageant, which features topless (and occasionally bottomless) contestants, Sturgis, South Dakota, Aug. 4, 2008 (Watch video clip)
9. "Across this country this is the agenda I have set before my fellow prisoners. And the same standards of clarity and candor must now be applied to my opponent." --Bethlehem, Penn., Oct. 8, 2008 (Watch video clip)
8. "You know, I think you may have noticed that Senator Obama's supporters have been saying some pretty nasty things about Western Pennsylvania lately. And you know, I couldn't agree with them more. I couldn't disagree with you. I couldn't agree with you more than the fact that Western Pennsylvania is the most patriotic, most god-loving, most, most patriotic part of America, and this is a great part of the country." --Moon Township, Penn., Oct. 21, 2008 (Watch video clip)
7. "The issue of economics is not something I've understood as well as I should. I've got Greenspan's book." --as quoted in the Boston Globe, Dec. 17, 2007
6. "Our economy, I think, is still -- the fundamentals of our economy are strong." --Jacksonville, Fla., Sept. 15, 2008
5. "You know that old Beach Boys song, Bomb Iran? Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran." --breaking into song after being asked at a VFW meeting about whether it was time to send a message to Iran, Murrells Inlet, South Carolina, April 18, 2007 (Watch video clip)
4. "There was an energy bill on the floor of the Senate loaded down with goodies, billions for the oil companies, and it was sponsored by Bush and Cheney. You know who voted for it? You might never know. That one." --referring to Barack Obama during the second presidential debate, Nashville, Tennessee, Oct. 7, 2008 (Watch video clip)
3. "I think -- I'll have my staff get to you. It's condominiums where -- I'll have them get to you." --after being asked how many houses he and his wife, Cindy, own, interview with Politico, Las Cruces, N.M., Aug. 20, 2008 (Take a Google Earth tour of the McCain residences and watch Obama's amusing ad slamming McCain)
2. "Make it a hundred...That would be fine with me." --to a questioner who asked if he supported President Bush's vision for keeping U.S. troops in Iraq for 50 years, Derry, New Hampshire, Jan. 3, 2008
1. "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you c*nt." --to his wife, Cindy, after she playfully twirled his hair and said "You're getting a little thin up there," as reported in the book The Real McCain by Cliff Schecter (Watch spoof video)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:06pm PT
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And these are just a few from Caribou Barbie you voted to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency.
1. "As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where– where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." --Sarah Palin, explaining why Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her foreign policy experience, interview with CBS's Katie Couric, Sept. 24, 2008 (Watch video clip)
2. "We believe that the best of America is not all in Washington, D.C. ... We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation." --Sarah Palin, speaking at a fundraiser in Greensoboro, N.C., Oct. 16, 2008
3. "Ohh, good, thank you, yes." --Sarah Palin, after a notorious Canadian prank caller complimented her on the documentary about her life, Hustler's "Nailin Paylin," Nov. 1, 2008 (Read more about the prank call, watch the video and see the transcript)
4. "Well, let's see. There's ― of course in the great history of America there have been rulings that there's never going to be absolute consensus by every American, and there are those issues, again, like Roe v. Wade, where I believe are best held on a state level and addressed there. So, you know, going through the history of America, there would be others but ―" --Sarah Palin, unable to name a Supreme Court decision she disagreed with other than Roe vs. Wade, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct. 1, 2008 (Watch video clip)
5. "All of 'em, any of 'em that have been in front of me over all these years." --Sarah Palin, unable to name a single newspaper or magazine she reads, interview with Katie Couric, CBS News, Oct. 1, 2008 (Watch video clip)
6. "They are also building schools for the Afghan children so that there is hope and opportunity in our neighboring country of Afghanistan." --Sarah Palin, speaking at a fundraiser in San Francisco, Oct. 5, 2008
7. "[T]hey're in charge of the U.S. Senate so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom." --Sarah Palin, getting the vice president's constitutional role wrong after being asked by a third grader what the vice president does, interview with NBC affiliate KUSA in Colorado, Oct. 21, 2008 (Watch video clip)
8. "I told the Congress, 'Thanks, but no thanks,' on that Bridge to Nowhere." –Sarah Palin, who was for the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against it
9. "If [the media] convince enough voters that that is negative campaigning, for me to call Barack Obama out on his associations then I don't know what the future of our country would be in terms of First Amendment rights and our ability to ask questions without fear of attacks by the mainstream media." --Sarah Palin, getting First Amendment rights backwards while suggesting that criticism of her is unconstitutional, radio interview with WMAL-AM, Oct. 31, 2008
10. "I'm the mayor, I can do whatever I want until the courts tell me I can't.'" --Sarah Palin, as quoted by former City Council Member Nick Carney, after he raised objections about the $50,000 she spent renovating the mayor's office without approval of the city council
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:10pm PT
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"Most of the people who voted for him are happy with him. We've seen plenty of change in the last three months and we'll see plenty more." Graniteclimber
Yep.
NOOOOW the far right finally starts worrying about the national debt. After their fearless leader racks up the biggest increase in the national debt in history and they do nothing about that. too funny. They don't seem to mind spending trillions on ill advised wars while taking tax cuts, which puts the burden on their children, but they complain bitterly about efforts to help their own country out of a financial hole. Oh well.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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"Deficits don't matter" Dick Cheney.... puppet master to the worst president in history.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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"Barack Obama got the job and has proposed more spending in his first month of office then the combined total of all federal spending since George Washington (the first George.)"
Not certain what you are talking about. How is he proposing to spend more then everyone since george washington? Do you mean national health care? He has currently asked for about a trillion dollars to overcome the financial crisis. How is that more then what Bush spent on the crises and more then what Bush spent of ill advised wars?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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"Obama is less popular than Bush"
Obama could be the most hated man in your country - which very clearly is the opposite of the truth - and he'd still be your President, at least until January 20th, 2013. And neither Bush I, Bush II, or McCain is or will be president. Obama also has substantial support in congress and the polls.
The Republican (I wouldn't say conservative) hegemony of the last 40 years is over, and they're not taking it very well. It's no surprise that they're trying to mount an attack, however pathetic. They'd rather do that than have to engage in a meaningful process of self-examination and criticism. Their social, economic and foreign policies have been exposed as false if not fraudulent, and they have nothing to fall back on but agitprop and rhetoric. Frustrated people do and say foolish things.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Skip, I have looked at the budget and don't know what you are talking about. Why are you so circumspect? How can I speak up if I don't know what you are complaining about?
Edit: Most of the budget has to do with maintaining things that are already in place, such as social security. Are you saying that Obama should dump social security?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
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I soooo wanted to climb today....f*#king partners!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
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""I think she's most qualified of any that has run recently for vice president, tell you the truth." --John McCain on Sarah Palin, interview with Don Imus, Oct. 22, 2008
"I might have to rely on a vice president that I select’ for expertise on economic issues." -- John McCain GOP debate, Nov. 28, 2007
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 14, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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Skipper, reality please, deal with it....Obama has got the job of cleaning up the mess, do you argue that?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
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So I guess that you aren't going to answer my question and just continue this silly rant.
Here is who you wanted for president.
"Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation." --John McCain in the Sept./Oct. issue of Contingencies, who was on the Senate Banking committee which helped oversee our current crises. This is who Skip wanted to be president.
This quote of John McCain especially cracks me up.
""[Sarah Palin] knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America. ... And, uh, she also happens to represent, be governor of a state that's right next to Russia." --after being asked about Sarah Palin's foreign policy experience, interview with WCSH-6, Portland, OR, Sept. 12, 2008
.............
the end...... unless you actually answer my question.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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No Skip, you did not. YOu just said read the budget. That is not an answer. What in the budget are you talking about?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:05pm PT
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And here's just a very few from the MORON you voted in to office.
Top 10 stupid things George Bush has said:
1"It's your money. You paid for it."
2"One of the great things about books is sometimes there are fantastic pictures."
3"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your questions."
4"It's clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas."
5"The great thing about America is everybody should vote."
6"I'm sure you can imagine it's an unimaginable honour to live here."
7"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."
8"And yes, we're always interested in dealing with people who have harmed American citizens."
9"I don't know whether I'm going to win or not. I think I am. I do know I'm ready for the job. And if not, that's just the way it goes."
10"Well, I think if you say you're going to do something and you don't do it that's trustworthiness."
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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Cop out.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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Skip.. arguing with you is a fools process. I didn't say I didn't see any deficit spending. I see it. YOu made the statement that he has committed us to more spending then in all the history of America. I asked you to prove that. My guess is that you can't, unless you are talking about social security. So I asked you if you would close social security.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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Take a deep breath skip. You have lost it. You put words into my mouth. I didn't say that there wasn't deficit spending in the current budget. I said that I couldn't see how that deficit spending amounted to more then any deficit that we have had since george washington.
On a year to year basis, certainly it will be the largest deficit. But taken from the prospective of the total national debt which you allude to by saying all the total deficit, it won't be. We are currently almost 11 trillion dollars in debt. That 11 trillion was inherited by Obama. George Bush oversaw adding almost 6 trillion to that national debt.
As for year to year budgets. Obama inherited a big problem. He isn't going to be able to balance the yearly budget his first year in office. He inherited too big of a problem.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Skip wrote,
"Barack Obama got the job and has proposed more spending in his first month of office then the combined total of all federal spending since George Washington (the first George.)
He eclipsed Pres. Bush's budget in only 1 week of being in office. "
That is what I was responding to. "combined total federal spending since george washington." That is a huge number and nothing in Obama's budget remotely comes close.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 14, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Actually skip, you said it was more then all federal spending since george washington.
Your words.
""Barack Obama got the job and has proposed more spending in his first month of office then the combined total of all federal spending since George Washington (the first George.) "
You did not say larger then all deficits since george washington, which might be closer to the truth but can't be true since his deficit for this year is projected to be 1.5 trillion and we are 11 trillion dollars in debt.
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Avishai
Mountain climber
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Mar 14, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Nobody cares if republican support is falling off after 7 weeks of the new administration! All but the most ignorant republicans know that the president is right when he says, "my administration has inherited a fiscal disaster." The cronies ran out of town in January caused the chasm between the rich and the poor to be so vast, we’ll likely never recover or have any chance to make a bridge. The fact that “George W. Bush left behind a trillion-dollar budget deficit, a 14-month recession and a broken financial system,” should not be forgotten. Any hope of bipartisan cooperation? As the wagons (Escalades and Hummers) circle around the Great Rush Limbaugh in preparation for his Ascension to their throne, that chasm is deep and wide.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 14, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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I think what you both are expressing is a frustration with the level of government spending, with no end in sight, and seems to me now is the time when we have to reach across the aisle and shake hands. Work togather for change, for the benefit of our nation if for nothing else, or we will just continue to bicker as if collaspes around us. Obama represents hope, and he is our president now. Why not join behind him and try to affect change for the better, America first- party second?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 14, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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Mark Steyn? Somebody actually brought that wanker up on this thread?
Sheesh. But then I guess some minds think alike, and some people do not have a mind, such as Mark Steyn. Who next? Charles Krauthammer? Ann Coulter? Mickey Mouse?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 14, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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Ann Coulter is in a different league that Steyn.
Steyn is legit, Ann's a showboater.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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LEB -- "No one has all the answers or even a small part of them."
That's not true, and can be proven absolutely.
There's one guy around who has all the answers perfect including all the small parts.
I guarantee it ...
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2009 - 08:29pm PT
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So you already know, why not study under him and learn the real facts.
Don't be shy ......
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 14, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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Oh yes you do, there's no escape ....
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Mar 14, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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I can't believe that I am actually responding to LEB; however, IT is messed up.
1. He believes the poor are oppressed by the wealthy and does not buy into the concept that one is wealthy or poor secondary to effort.
So you dont think that a poor black child such as himself, who grew up in a mixed race home and got himself through the best schools on his own sheer effort and hard work means anything? While Bush had everything going for him?
2. Obama fundamentally hates the military and the war machine. He has no use for it and will try to disarm it to whatever extent is reasonable.
I have worked for the military for 9 years, I think I have a better understanding than most because of it. It is not the military that he hates, it is how the MIL was used in a wrong war that Obama dislikes, you dig? Does LEB have a clue about the MIL? I doubt it.
3. Obama buys into the "victim" theory of life. People are where they are because it is (ever) someone else's "fault." One's misfortunes are never one's own fault or secondary to one's own doing.
see #1. He clearly was in a place to be a victim but rose above it. Meanwhile, GW was in a place of prominence. Tell me you dont respect what Obama has done with is life?
4. He believes in very big government because the vast majority of the masses or too weak and stupid to run their own lives. (sometimes I think he may actually have a point here - after all they voted for him). He (for whom none of the usual rules apply) can better do it for them since he is smarter and better able to make these decisions. He will also create an class of people dependent on his party and his type of government who will then vote for him (or his party).
You are absurd for making this statement. He surrounds himself with other people who are supposed to me smarter than him in special topics so that he can use their brains in reaching the best decisions. This is totaly counter than GWB's days in office. I manage 4$Billion for the gov. I cannot know everything, I rely on others for their input, but ultimately I am responsible. That is how Obama is doing it, I get it.
5. (Finally!) Obama has a titanic ego that would make GWB look like small potatoes. He is arrogant and self-absorbed believing he has all of the answers when, in fact, he has relatively few of them. No one has all the answers or even a small part of them. Only the arrogant claim to. He has absolutely no integrity having directly gone against so much of what he promised and then so early in his administration. Much was said in the name of getting elected without any true conviction to the principles espoused. Talk is always cheap and many bought it hook line and sinker.
See #4. Arrogance? Who is more arrogant than GWB when he says, "I make the decisions!".
BS, LEB you dont have a freaking clue about his arrogance. However, you do have one point. I despise Presidents who do not hold their political appointees to the same std as normal Feds have to have and OB has screwed up here a couple times. But more than others? NO.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 15, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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skip. skip. skip.
your wildly flailing man. like some blind-folded, ear-plugged assailant swinging at a dodging flea.
but i guess that is how you would need to carry on, hailing the hero's that you do.
anyway. skip.
let me knudge you gently in the side, kinda bro like, and say.... dude, there comes a time when the truth just overpowers your opinion.
that time is now skip.
im sure it is difficult for ya to embrace. realizing that something that you've leaned your heart upon is crumbling.
let it all it skip. your tragedy is not lonesome. many others are crying along side you.
change will plow through despite. we are a nation ready to move foward. far beyond the selfish and excessive ways that you preach and feel entitled to.
ya might as well join the movement, sir. cause the dust of skuttling feat will not cease. we are ecstatic about the new direction of our tribe.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Mar 15, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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I love watching you get a new one ripped there skippy.
But at the same time I'm bumbed.
You won't be able to dance anymore.....
Ha Ha!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 15, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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Don't worry - I hear he plans to spend some money on healthcare. Bound to be something in it for nurses. I suspect that there'll be enough to stifle the mostly selfish and idiotological opposition to a single-payer system as used so successfully in most other liberal democracies.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Mar 15, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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LEB, Nov 6, 2008:
"For now, I am willing to give Obama a chance and see what he can do. I am going into this thing with an open mind but I predict the pendulum will start to swing too far in the opposite direction and we will end up with an entirely different set of (equally) undesirable outcomes.
I say, now that Obama is elected, give the man a chance to see what he can do. I am far less "goo-goo" eyed than many here because I temper my expectations with realism. I gave up on the tooth fairy a long time ago but OK maybe it was just me. Maybe there really IS a tooth fairy (eyes rolled) However, the election is over, the people have spoken - OKay, that is just fine. I am willing to sit back and give the man a chance. Now let's see how this man can deliver on what he says."
Sitting back and giving him a chance, eh? Thankfully, you and your cohorts vehemently disagree with him and what he's gotten done in his first 50+ days. Most of us would have something to really worry about if it was the other way around.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Mar 15, 2009 - 04:49am PT
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I didn't vote for Obama and was worried he'd be too liberal. And he's a democrat/republican so you know there's a lot of lies, deceipt, and taking care of special interest that goes along with being part of those two parties.
But as a whole I have been very impressed with what he has done so far. He is not the left wing socialist boogey man the right wingers want so desperately to believe he is to reinforce their skewed views. But hey you believe what you want to believe to make yourself feel justified, no matter how far away from reality it may be.
The funny thing is the economy will continue on it's cycle and we'll be in recovery and Obama will get re-elected. Then the people that had defended Bush for 8 years can continue to get all freaked out by the BS right wing drivel they watch and listen to on Fox news and talk radio. It's sad really that these right wing pundits are getting wealthy playing to their audiences fears, predjudices, and delusions. But as it was said: there's a sucker born every minute.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 15, 2009 - 10:03am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
corporate shill.
do you really
pay people to
clean up after
you?
if so that would
explain some things.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 15, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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i'm still waitin'
for my nursie
spankin'!
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Mar 15, 2009 - 10:59am PT
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OK LEB, let's not "LEB-ize" this thread, shall we?
Timid top-rope, thank you for the concise point on the gdp benefits of the incredibly short sighted "tax-cut" versus investing in our country. That Harper's index...sometimes blows my mind.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 15, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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a hobby eh?
clearly you do
not even get
the gist.
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wildone
climber
GHOST TOWN
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Mar 15, 2009 - 11:15pm PT
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...however, WE don't share your passion of being politically clueless and verbally effluent about it.
Let me break it on down for you.
We are trying to have a conversation. You be ubiquitous obfuscator. Me be frustrated at obtuse you. Me not alone.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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rocky, Jesus would prolly just punch you once.
A wake-up...
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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WWSPD?
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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Sarah Palin
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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You are all right, lets boycott this thread and silence it. It is not up to discussion.
Everyone delete your posts and let the thread die. I will not allow people to read things that probably are not true, I think.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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did you do a bong hit, Gdavis......
dirtbag did,.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:11am PT
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I'm watching mixed martial arts, sorting climbing gear from the weekend, trying to put off my bible study homework and posting on supertopo. I am a man without a country...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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hang in there, duck!!!!!
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apogee
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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GDavis: "You are all right, lets boycott this thread and silence it...
Everyone delete your posts and let the thread die."
Man, a guy leaves for two days, and a(nother) Just Pukin' Trash thread grows to 200 posts? What is it with you guys? Who is worse- the troll, or the ones who take the hook?
As much derision as many of you (supposedly) hold for jpt, every time he posts another stupid *ss thread he sits back with a smug Repug smile on his Limbaugh-like face while everybody takes the bait.
Why do you do it?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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excuse me.
the 'latest' poll rallied back in november when the liberal ideals absolutely crushed the republican ticket.
a nation then began its healing process. of course cuts as deep as those inflicted by g.w. will bear scabs.
you whimpering folks are simply the scabs on the wounds.
as the fruit of Obama's actions begin to flourish, the scabs will fall off.
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apogee
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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"because it's fun watching all you libs get all self-righteous even as you respond"
I'll give you that, bookworm- not sure if that is true about Dems in general, but it seems to be very true here on ST. Some Repug/Conservative posts something inflammatory, and the Dems/Libs react. Kind of like a jack-in-the-box.
It sure would be nice to see either side post thought-provoking ideas or directions and see a thoughtful, articulate discussion ensue. Mostly, it tends to be the same, tired talking points shot back and forth with a bazooka. Even for a political junkie like me, it gets pretty circular and tiresome.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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i agree, the W/repub spending spree was stupid (minus defense spending), but doubling/tripling down on stupid is even more stupid
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apogee
climber
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Mar 16, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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"i agree, the W/repub spending spree was stupid (minus defense spending), but doubling/tripling down on stupid is even more stupid"
bookworm, thank you for perfectly illustrating my point. That is exactly the kind of hyperbolic, hyperpartisan, divisive language and positioning that prevents any kind of meaningful discussion here on ST or the country, for that matter.
Though your commentary is often highly partisan, you write well and can be quite articulate- more of that kind of communication style is needed here. I can take responsibility for the similar types of commentary I've made in the past- can you? More importantly, if you truly do agree, are you able to do anything differently?
To the point: do you give a flying f*ck? (So much for articulate...)
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 16, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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apogee, i'm not sure what set you off; i was responding to rok's "hyperpartisan" rant, which ended with repub spending; i agreed that the spending was STUPID and pointed out the obvious: to double and triple STUPID spending is even more STUPID
allow me to rephrase: the repubs were stupid for spending so much; if the dems spend two or three times as much, then the dems are even more stupid
how, exactly, is that "hyperpartisan"?
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
the jeep
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Mar 16, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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i heard that the program that is replacing 'who wants to be a millionaire' next year is supposed to be less popular as well
edit: my source was the from the people who got canceled....
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Mar 17, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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You guys have too much time on your hands...you'll regret wasting it on crap like this someday.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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An appropriate contribution to this unbelievable thread:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aUoRTqRtwOPE&refer=home
Sarah Palin Blows Another Teachable Moment: Margaret Carlson
Commentary by Margaret Carlson
March 17 (Bloomberg) -- This is a bulletin for those following Governor Sarah Palin’s meteoric political career, from mayor of a small Alaskan town to vice presidential candidate. In January, Palin formed SarahPac, which allows her to travel the country on unofficial business. Last week, the Draft Sarah Palin 2012 Committee held its first fundraising event and signed up 40 organizers and 100 volunteers. In June, she will headline the biggest Republican fundraiser of the year.
Palin says she isn’t running for president, but that if God should open the door to the White House, she will prayerfully pass through. With a dearth of Republican talent and party leadership up for grabs, Palin remains a hot commodity. In one recent Rasmussen Reports poll, 55 percent of Republican voters wanted their party to become more like Palin.
Yet just as the Draft Palin movement was having its first meeting, Levi Johnston, the father of Bristol Palin’s 2-month- old son, Tripp, was hosting his first solo interview outside his Wasilla home. Levi told the Associated Press that there will be no wedding after all and that the relationship ended “a while ago.”
Johnston was responding to inquiries about a Star magazine piece which quoted his sister complaining that Bristol makes it almost impossible for Levi to be the “hands-on dad” that Bristol had said he was. “She tells him he can’t take the baby to our house because she doesn’t want him around ‘white trash.’”
Bristol issued a statement through SarahPac: “Unfortunately, my family has seen many people say and do many things to ‘cash in’ on the Palin name. Sometimes that greed clouds good judgment and the truth.” With a non-denial denial, another generation enters politics.
Confusing Us Again
Palin’s fundamentalist Christian base will no doubt brush off this latest twist in the Palin family saga, much as it did the original revelation that Bristol was pregnant, further confusing those of us in the Blue States whom they regularly scold for lax childrearing and permissive sexual practices.
We expect Jamie Lynn Spears to be shameless and Hollywood to romanticize teen pregnancy in movies like “Juno,” but the Palins and the Christian Right? Republican Senator John McCain claimed to know about the pregnancy when he selected Palin as his running mate. Bristol and Levi were treated like royalty, hugged by McCain on the tarmac and at center stage for every event, waving to the crowd like Evita and Juan Peron.
Bristol’s out-of-wedlock pregnancy ended up doing little, if anything, to hurt the Palin candidacy. Not one Republican delegate I questioned at the party’s national convention had a problem with it, as long as Palin’s daughter was marrying her boyfriend and not having an abortion.
Cultural Split
The whole episode speaks to the cultural split between conservatives and liberals on teenage pregnancy and marriage. Republicans, ever ready to do battle over homosexuals, unmarried welfare moms, and Bill Clinton’s sex life, seem sanguine over teenage pregnancy so long as the teenager gets married.
Liberals are more likely to believe an accidental pregnancy shouldn’t derail a child’s development into adulthood, that a child shouldn’t have a child.
Statistics show teen marriage to be a bad bet, and teen marriage with a baby on the way even worse. A study released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention showed that twice as many marriages at age 18 fail as those after 25. Children born to older couples fare better on a variety of measures, including educational attainment and financial stability, the study showed.
Yet conservatives have rules that make teenage pregnancy and marriage more likely. That would be OK if they didn’t seek to impose them on others.
No Sex, Please
The ideal is no premarital sex. Conservatives take it a step further, pressing “abstinence only” education in high school. Most liberals agree: Abstinence is the best policy. But liberals go on to ask what the second-best policy is, knowing that if birds do it and bees do it, their teenage offspring might do it.
According to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy, more conservative states such as Nevada, Arizona, Mississippi and Texas have the highest teen-pregnancy rates, and public costs associated with it. Vermont, New Hampshire, Minnesota and Maine have the lowest. The heathens in Massachusetts have both the lowest rate of teen pregnancy and marriage and the lowest rate of divorce.
Bristol Palin not getting married is a second chance at a teachable moment. If abstinence only didn’t work in the Palin household, where is it going to work? In one of her Palin impersonations on “Saturday Night Live,” Tina Fey delivered the best line of the 2008 campaign when she summarized Sarah’s view of marriage as “a sacred institution between two unwilling teenagers.”
Family Values
This isn’t an argument for abortion, but one for reality -- drop abstinence only, make contraceptives available and consider adoption, relying on grandparents, or single parenting until the child herself grows up. Take a look at family values in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts. Don’t be so quick to leap to wedding bells and happily ever after.
As Levi moves on, Bristol’s parents might someday be relieved that an unwanted pregnancy hasn’t been followed by an unworkable marriage. I’m guessing Levi, hardly the first to succumb to the chance to cash in, won’t resist remaining in view. Already, he has graciously made himself available to a tabloid, the AP and “Good Morning America.”
With any luck, he could be the next Joe the Plumber, reeling off half-baked opinions on the economy, taxes and foreign policy. After all, he lives in Alaska. On a clear day, he can see Russia and Fox News from his front porch.
(Margaret Carlson, author of “Anyone Can Grow Up: How George Bush and I Made It to the White House” and former White House correspondent for Time magazine, is a Bloomberg News columnist. The opinions expressed are her own.)
To contact the writer of this column: Margaret Carlson in Washington at mcarlson3@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: March 17, 2009 00:01 EDT
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
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who cares?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Mar 17, 2009 - 01:06pm PT
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The problem is that he (McCain) lost his own party not that he lost the so called moderate vote.
-Skipt
I just love that quote, completely ignoring reality so you can believe what you want to believe.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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in 5 weeks, obama hasn't even completed his own cabinet...he hasn't even filled 17 of 18 posts at TREASURY, posts that require senate approval, which could take months...but maybe the treasury department isn't all that important...
i mean, obama has "established a staff position in the White House to oversee arts and culture in the Office of Public Liaison and Intergovernmental Affairs under Valerie Jarrett, a senior adviser, a White House official confirmed. Kareem Dale, right, a lawyer who last month was named special assistant to the president for disability policy, will hold the new position. Mr. Dale, who is partly blind, previously served as national disability director for the Obama campaign. He also served on the arts policy committee and the disability policy committee for Mr. Obama when he was a senator from Illinois. Bill Ivey, who served as the administration’s transition-team leader for the arts and humanities, said he was encouraged by the appointment and would meet with Mr. Dale next week. “It’s a big step forward in terms of connecting cultural and government with mainstream administration policy,” Mr. Ivey said in an interview on Friday" (nyt)...so what if we're in the "biggest financial crisis since the great depression", the government needs to focus on CULTURE
and, of course, obama has confronted the ever critical "girl effect":
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/17/economic-crisis-new-challenges/
and in case you were worried about how obama would treat our veterans:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/10/veterans.health.insurance/index.html
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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poor warbler, please read...i wasn't mocking science or culture, just obama's priorities...however, since you brought it up, if we don't bomb the islamofacists, well...
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm
oh wait, those are religious statues so you're probably happy they were destroyed, opium of the masses and all that
and, i assume you agree that our soldiers who are injured while serving the country should be required to pay for their treatment through private insurance...maybe that way, they'll stop picking on the islamofacists
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jstan
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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"No one party should have all the say."
Skip:
Would have very much liked to hear you say this in the 90's and earlier in the 2000's. Or have you reached this position more recently?
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jstan
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Good talking to you again Skip.
I agree on this with you. I have even wondered if we might have the legislature elected in November as it is now and then have the president elected a month later. During the Bush administration we saw the worst that ever existed during my lifetime. The business of refusing to give the minority party conference rooms in which to meet, signing agreements that entirely vitiated the legislative branch of government, and telling a senator from the minority party right on the senate floor "to go f*ck himself" is just about the bottom of the barrel.
Now I know the power invested in the floor leader is huge so Tom Delay's personal domination of the republican House and the Nation could be understood. Absolutely no one dared vote against the leadership. Fortunately he ran into trouble with the laws and was removed. But here we are almost two months into a new administration, the republicans are now the minority party, and they still refuse to break ranks and vote their individual priorities.
The welfare of the Nation continues to get hind tit from the republican party.
Some of the youngsters here may not know why this is bad so I will spell it out. A cow's hind tit is the one that always has sh*t on it.
It is mind blowing.
My conclusion? No republicans in the government at this time should be returned to office. We need a complete sweep. Bar none. Now if we see more examples like Olympia, Arlen, and the third senator to take part in governing the country for ITS benefit as intended by the Constitution, I may relent somewhat.
My feeling? We need to see the final end of Lincoln's party and the formation of a, now, responsible opposition.
A lot of people have seen the absolute worst that a monolithic government can offer. A new party may find more support coming to it than it first imagined possible.
EDIT:
Studly:
I agree. It is hard to find a word more appropriate than "treason."
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 17, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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jstan, I couldn't agree more, clean sweep. The new gov has tried to reach across party lines and the Repubs have refused to do. Obama has made gesture after gesture, something Bush didn't even consider in his arrogance, and for the new buzzword from the Repubs to be "I hope Obama fails" when the very fate of our Nation is at stake is no longer acceptable, and to me borders on treason.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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Skip:
The minute one feels one's party is not acting in the interest of the nation, one's response should be to stop supporting that party. That is why I stopped supporting the republicans. You have not done so and indeed in your representations you have continued to support that party.
I think you have described your own situation not mine.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 17, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
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skipt (speaking with jstan): "I can understand that you are rabid about your party."
Except that his party is the conservative party, that is to say the party which in his view best represents conservative American values. And after 50 or so years voting (mostly) Republican in federal elections, he now chooses to support and vote for the Democrats, who, whatever their name, better represent those values.
I suspect that jstan is rabid for the United States of America, its constitution, its core values (particularly as stated in the Bill of Rights), personal and government responsibility and accountabilty, sane economic and foreign policies, etc. I doubt he'd ever be rabid for a political party or candidate, though I'd guess he thought Eisenhower was pretty competent.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 17, 2009 - 08:52pm PT
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Speaking of AIG:
They first were given billions in September and again more in December, both times when Bush and his appointed Treasury Secretary were in control. Clearly, no effort was made both times in 2008 to look in to executive compensation to limit it.
This called a gross lack of oversight.
Now AIG is back for more money, and this time transparency is bringing this to light, with the proposal now that those executives will be taxed 100% to return that money to our treasury.
That is the responsible thing to do, now that people who give a sh#t about oversight are in charge.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 17, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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We just took a poll, in November.
The conservative philosophy was soundly, convincingly, rejected by the voters.They had a bellyful of it for eight years.
Nothing anyone says on this and thousands of other internet forums matters a bit, we are all just venting.
No one is going to convince anyone to switch political parties.
The 2010 midterm elections will again soundly reject the Republican party, just as the 2006 and 2008 elections did.
This rejection of conservatism will continue for a very long time because their base keeps shrinking. Dead Party Walking.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Skip:
A President takes an oath of office to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
George Bush violated his oath of office.
A worse charge does not exist.
He was supported in this by the republican party and that support continues to this very day.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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After you murder someone. Does saying, "That is history. Get over it."
Does this deal with reality or just deny it?
Skip, if you feel you are a spokesperson for your party, your activity guarantees its failures will never be forgotten.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 17, 2009 - 09:52pm PT
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Yep, its definitely a stream.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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And your point?
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jeremy11
Trad climber
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Mar 17, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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"It's time for the power of positive thinking. Everything is getting better! Tony Robbins told me so."
Ever heard of the Second Law of Thermodynamics?
"The entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium."
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:33am PT
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la. la. lala. la.
meanwhile, over here in reality, change is happening.
the lessons afforded by eight years of republican rule are being heeded.
ya had your chance skippy. now get out of the way of progress, or else it will politely scoot you aside and leave you hacking up the dusty babble of a charlatan.
here's a pabst. wash that down kid. really.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 18, 2009 - 10:58am PT
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that's right warbler...socialized medicine, nationalized banks, open borders, weakened defense, increasingly more powerful and belligerent enemies, etc., have not been born...that's why we should kill them now, while they're still in the womb...after all, as you would agree, since they haven't been born, they're not real ideas anyway
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 06:49am PT
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http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/the-%e2%80%9cdepression%e2%80%9d-for-us-idiots/
the money quote:
"I feel like Winston Smith in Oceania, confused about all the doublethink coming out of Washington. Great Depression—no Great Depression. Recession for years; its end at the end of this year. Signing statements bad; signing statements good. Fundamentals hardly strong; fundamentals really sound. Earmarks terrible; 8,000 wonderful. Bush’s $500 billion deficit reckless; Obama’s $1.7 sober and judicious; Iraq horrific and the worst whatever; Iraq suddenly quiet, democratic, and hopeful; highest ethical bar in an administration ever—Richardson, Daschle, Killefer, Solis, etc. cannot meet the lowest; Guantanamo a Stalag; Guantanamo open for a year, pending the recommendations of a “task force”; Guantanamo a torture place for unlawful combatants; Guantanamo a nice place without unlawful combatants; Obama not to be blamed for massive collapse of stock prices since November; Obama to be praised for modest gains last week. At some point, someone in the media must be getting embarrassed that they are all working at the Ministry of Truth."
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 09:20am PT
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"before you slit your wrists"
winston smith didn't slit his wrists (and i didn't write the paragraph, which is why i used quotation marks), but i assume you're a product of the public school system so i shouldn't be surprised
"After all, much of what went on was top secret and conducted in back rooms"
and, yet, you seem to know so much of 'what went on'...were you in those back rooms, too? do tell...or by 'top secret' and 'back rooms', you mean publicly?
"the media often gets the facts WRONG"
true, however, you can't blame the media for what OBAMA says; you might blame his teleprompter (or the rare lack thereof), but his words speak for themselves, especially when they're caught on tape...granted, vdh didn't use quotation marks, but i'll find the appropriate quotes if you insist
"the chains and blindfolds have been removed"
what is it, exactly, that we don't know?
"exclusively embedded and refused permission to roam at will"
and when were they allowed to 'roam at will' in a war zone? and what were we not told about the war? and why didn't any of your intrepid reporters sneak into iraq themselves?
allow me to make a point about obama's decision to display coffins of dead soldiers...this is/was a tradition to protect the families of fallen soldiers (like cops not announcing the names of murder victims until the family is notified)...the ONLY purpose this can serve is propoganda...nobody in the bush administration (and, as far as i know, since vietnam, which was run by dems, by the way) lied about the number of americans killed or wounded in iraq or afghanistan...further, photos of the coffins can be displayed ONLY with the premission of the families...so, rok, your intrepid reporters can now go to the grieving families of fallen soldiers, stick a mic or waiver form in their faces and boldly ask, "mind if we show your kid's/husband's/wife's/brother's/sister's/dad's/mom's coffin on the front page/nightly news because it's vital to make sure people know that people die in war and even though we are allowed already to give their names and show their pictures and film their funerals, which already include their coffins, a picture of your kid's/husband's/wife's/brother's/ sister's/dad's/mom's coffin being unloaded from an airplane would be just so much more, well, vital as i'm sure you can understand in this time of sorrow"
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 19, 2009 - 10:40am PT
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thanks to obama for proving my point about rok's hurry-up media:
"But today, President Obama took that rhetoric in a different direction. He actually upped the ante explaining that AIG is like a suicide bomber.
“We had to step in, it was the right thing to do, even though it is infuriating,” Obama said, explaining why the government needed to bail out the troubled banks.
“The same is true with AIG,” he said. “It was the right thing to do to step in. Here’s the problem. It’s almost like they’ve got — they’ve got a bomb strapped to them and they’ve got their hand on the trigger. You don’t want them to blow up. But you’ve got to kind of talk them, ease that finger off the trigger.”
of course, what obama really means is that aig is much worse than suicide bombers...after all, aig got $150 billion, and we only gave hamas $900 million
ok, the aig as suicide bomber simile is silly, but i am concerned about obama's strategy (ok, maybe it's a tactic) for dealing with a suicide bomber:
"ok, buddy, take it easy...everything's going to be ok...i understand you're feeling some anger, right now, maybe even a lot of anger, but we can deal with this...just go to your happy pl--"
"DEATH TO AMERICA!"
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 19, 2009 - 11:30am PT
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yawn
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 20, 2009 - 06:35am PT
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sorry, but he's the gift that just keeps giving...maybe he should let biden start talking again
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/03/president-ob-15.html
alright, let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt: "The president made an off-hand remark making fun of his own bowling that was in no way intended to disparage the Special Olympics," White House deputy press secretary Bill Burton said. "He thinks the Special Olympics is a wonderful program that gives an opportunity for people with disabilities from around the world"
soooooooo...maybe what obama meant is that he thinks the presidency is like the special olympics because it's "a wonderful program that gives an opportunity for people with disabilities from around the world"...
i guess he might also say his foreign policy is like the make-a-wish foundation
oh, wait...apparently i owe the president an apology... these "gaffes" aren't his fault (i think)
http://baracksteleprompter.blogspot.com/
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 20, 2009 - 08:02am PT
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an underlying mood of acceptance, confidence and gratitude has swept across the nation, with enuf momentum that it has bounded right across both oceans and linked hands on continents afar.
you see it. and feel it. fer gawds sake, it's the truth on the tip of your nose.
your sorry little attempts to dissuade this chorus of morale is in vain.
carry on though. as it must straighten out your spine or something.
for, a man motivitated by the genius of genuine intentions is putting the wrench to this rattling beast of a nation, tackling one bush fuk up after another. and he has the support of the vast, vast majority.
you simply cannot dis-prove the truth. not even with all of the little girl drama that you are throwing at it.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 20, 2009 - 09:38am PT
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you're right, norwegian, it's all about "acceptance, confidence and gratitude"...if we all just smile and hug each other, things will turn out ok, or even better: banks will give money to anyone who asks for it, and the government will repay the banks; companies will hire anyone who asks for a job, and the government will pay their salaries (but no bonuses); doctors will cure anyone who's sick and the government will pay all the medical bills; colleges will admit anyone who applies, and the government will pay their tuition and room and board; best of all, despots and "so-called" terrorist organizations will see the error of their ways and will embrace multiculturalism, tolerance, human rights, and peaceful demonstration
it's all about the way things should be and not the way they are:
"Obama has been strangely passive about this single greatest threat to the country. In his address to Congress and his budget, he's been far more interested in his grand program for reshaping the American social contract in health care, energy and education.
Obama delegates to Geithner plans for a bailout -- and Geithner (thus far) delivers nothing. Obama delegates to Nancy Pelosi and her congressional grandees the writing of all things fiscal -- and gets a $787 billion stimulus package that is a wish list of liberal social spending, followed by a $410 billion omnibus spending bill festooned with pork and political paybacks.
That bill, we now discover, contains, among other depth charges, a Teamster-supported provision inserted by Sen. Byron Dorgan that terminates a Bush-era demonstration project to allow some Mexican trucks onto American highways, as required under NAFTA.
If you thought the AIG hysteria was a display of populist cynicism directed at a relative triviality, consider this: There are more than 6.5 million trucks in the United States. The program Congress terminated allowed 97 Mexican trucks to roam among them. Ninety-seven! Shutting them out not only undermines NAFTA. It caused Mexico to retaliate with tariffs on 90 goods affecting $2.4 billion in U.S. trade coming out of 40 states."
from krauthammer's column today in wapo
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 20, 2009 - 09:46am PT
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it is not about hugging and blind optimism bookworm.
our 'team' morale is high because we as a majority believe in and trust our moral leader.
this is the infant position we must take as we begin to heal and then prepare to progress.
hugs are great when their great. but your low blows to a man handed a platter of shite by mr. bush are premature and in vain.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 20, 2009 - 10:10am PT
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"our moral leader"?
seriously? you choose as your "moral leader" a guy who isn't even smart enough to understand a joke about retarded people might offend some people?
anyway, here's another one from that right-wing hack factory the la times:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/03/obama-newspaper.html
barring the press from a press award ceremony! at least he's not going to bar them from "roaming at will" around a war zone
and then there's this from the ap:
"President Barack Obama says his embattled treasury chief, Timothy Geithner, is doing an "outstanding job."'
look out, timmy, the bus just turned down your street
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Mar 20, 2009 - 11:08am PT
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Don't worry Timmy, Booktool is saving you a seat on the "special" bus...
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 20, 2009 - 11:45am PT
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not "sick" rok, stupid...i think obama is stupid for making the joke on national television...and, yes, i think his policies are stupid, too
and you mention being "sensitive" when your favorite president chose as his sec of homeland security somebody who refers to terrorism as "man-caused disasters", which i guess makes terrorists "man-caused disaster causers"...offend the disabled and their families, but don't you dare offend people who blow up women and children
hopenchange...yes we can
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 20, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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Hey Rokjox,
Laugh Dude. It's fun watching the righties get their panties in a wad.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 20, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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yea, moral. Obama is moral and sincere. is what i said.
you might as well go yell at the wind to stop blowing. keep yelling. louder and louder. as your zealous enthusiasm begins to boil. keep yelling.
the wind will continue to blow mr worm. as it cleanses our country of the republican rot of the past era.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 20, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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Speaking of the dumbest woman to ever run for office:
By Sean Cockerham
The Anchorage Daily News
Gov. Sarah Palin is refusing to accept more than 30 percent of the federal economic stimulus money being offered to Alaska, including dollars for schools, energy assistance and social services.
The news Thursday drew anger from those who accused Palin of putting her national political aspirations ahead of the state's interests, and admiration from others who say she has courage to turn down money that would expand government. The state Legislature will have an opportunity to override her decision.
Palin is not taking about $288 million of the $930.7 million that Alaska is due in the federal stimulus. Palin said she is accepting the federal stimulus money that would go for construction projects, but not funding directed at government operations.
"We are not requesting funds intended to just grow government," Palin said. "In essence we say no to operating funds for more positions in government."
Palin first told the news media that she's turning down nearly half the federal stimulus money – but later conceded that does not count the Medicaid money she is accepting. That brings down what she's refusing to 31 percent of what the state government could get. Local governments and nonprofits could still compete for stimulus grants.
The biggest single chunk of money that Palin is turning down is about $170 million for education, including money that would go for programs to help economically disadvantaged and special needs students. Anchorage School Superintendent Carol Comeau said she is "shocked and very disappointed" that Palin would reject the schools money. She said it could be used for job preservation, teacher training, and helping kids who need it.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 23, 2009 - 07:19am PT
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obama in february: "we are in the worst financial crisis since the great depression...if we do not act immediately, the crisis will become a catastrophe..."
obama in march: "things really are not as bad as we think..."
obama on 60 minutes: "Obama made clear that he’s afraid the nation hasn’t seen the worst of the economic crisis"
change you can believe in...if change is all you believe in
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 27, 2009 - 08:25am PT
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ok, maybe not in american...yet, but worldwide? seriously, if he keeps making these gaffes, it's only a matter of time before the world sees him as an amateur...isn't obama supposed to be the smartest man to ever run for or be elected president?
first, the embarrassing gift of a unuseable dvd collection to our most important ally...then, his sec of state giving the russians a gift that has a mistranslation on it...then his sec of state claiming that american democracy is older than europe's...now, this: a letter of cooperation to the italian president instead of the proper recipient the prime minister...how many gaffes is he allowed before we stop calling them gaffes and start calling him incompetent
http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2009/03/22/the-is-had-it/
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 27, 2009 - 08:38am PT
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bookworm, jpt, skipt:
you and your co-horts are just going to have to reconstruct new spines. simple.
you can no longer prop yourselves on gross excess.
you might have to dig a little.
do you have it in you? you sure whine alot.
put some of that energy into carving your inner warriors.
then you'll be ready for whatever twists reality takes.
its disgusting though. to me.
now you have a nation and a world to answer to before you step upon my children to propel your selfish, ignorant, excessive and shallow ways.
and i am standing at the front of the line of people whom are permanently stomping out your archaic ways.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2009 - 08:51am PT
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"permanantly stomping out your archaic ways"
By that, do you mean replacing capitalism with socialism?
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snoreta01
Boulder climber
east vinod nagar , delhi
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Mar 27, 2009 - 08:59am PT
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Not true! Both have their own position and status so it's not wright to comment one of them.
Rocky
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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Mar 27, 2009 - 09:13am PT
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Hey didja all know that Chris Sharma is visiting Yuji Hirayama and Dai Koyamada in Japan? Is 5.16 possible in the Far East?? Stay tuned. Oops, sorry, OT.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 27, 2009 - 09:16am PT
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no. i don't mean that.
let us move forward with accountable capitalism.
the gray area of ethical standards is no longer open to individual interpretation. too many crooks see it as a springboard for "capitalizing".
mr bush (should we hereby take the mr. from the front of his name?) was a keen leader in that game.
change is rampantly happening thoughout. and the world welcomes it.
i can hold my children's hands a little tighter now. because my hopes for their future are being realized.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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"accountable capitalism"
--Norwegian
Who gets to make the rules?
The folks in Washington? They seem to be the most corrupt amoung us.
“too many crooks see it (capitalism) as a springboard for "capitalizing"”
--Norwegian
You want a system of commerce that is fair, rewards those who work hard and are innovative?
You should be pissed to high hell that the Obama administration let the management within the financial industry keep their jobs (with bonuses) after they drove their businesses into the ground.
Can’t you see this is the elite protecting the elite?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 27, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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Environmental Deputy Bails. President Obama's pick bails out after its learned of his mismanagement of funds (ie living high on the hog with donation money).Jon Cannon, a former top EPA lawyer...
And as the world cools; more evidence:
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 27, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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Obama, by all indications holds himself to high moral standards. Though you may not agree with his policy, as indicated by your hashing the man, he upholds ethical standards that a leader should possess.
i, (and seemingly the majority of the nation and beyond) give him the confidence to redirect our country in an honest, accountable and respectful direction.
and in doing so, it means reeling in the cultural gluttony that we as american's feel is our god given right.
selflessness and compromise are not genetically inherited traits. thus they are painfully difficult to learn.
but they are a necessary foundation for an ordered society.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 27, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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so Norwegian, got to ask you why you think he has nominated so many people who have had to bail due to their selfishness and compromised legal status?
just asking>>
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 10:17am PT
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ok, ok, i'll stop posting when the guy stops acting like an amateur
what's the latest? well, outlining his strategy for the war in afghanistan, obama wanted to emphasize that the threat from aq affects everybody...so he carefully listed all the countries that have suffered aq attacks...except the country that suffered the single most deadly attack outside of 9/11: SPAIN (191 dead)
here's a link, and note this is not an off the cuff response to a question but a prepared statement, teleprompter and all:
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/03/30/obamateurism-of-the-day-8/
first, great britain, then russia, then italy, now spain...who's next?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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When I saw mention of Spain, I assumed the article was pointing out G. W. Bush’s henchmen torture trials in the news:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/28/world/main4900114.shtml
Also, let’s not forget McCain’s gaff on Spain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIcEa1CLhc8
While we’re at it, how about some noteworthy quotes by the GOP hero, G.W. Bush:
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." – Sep 2000, explaining his energy policies at an event in Michigan.
"Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?" - Jan 2000, during a campaign event in South Carolina.
"They misunderestimated the compassion of our country. I think they misunderestimated the will and determination of the commander in chief, too." - Sept. 26, 2001, in Va. Bush was referring to the terrorists who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks.
"There's no doubt in my mind, not one doubt in my mind, that we will fail." - Oct, 2001, in Washington. Bush was remarking on a back-to-work plan after the terrorist attacks.
"It would be a mistake for the United States Senate to allow any kind of human cloning to come out of that chamber." - April 2002, at the White House, as Bush urged Senate passage of a broad ban on cloning.
"I want to thank the dozens of welfare-to-work stories, the actual examples of people who made the firm and solemn commitment to work hard to embetter themselves." - April 2002, at the White House.
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me - you can't get fooled again." - Sept, 2002, in Nashville, Tenn.
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - Aug, 2004, at the signing ceremony for a defense spending bill.
"Too many good docs are getting out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country." - Sept, 2004, at a rally in Mo.
"Our most abundant energy source is coal. We have enough coal to last for 250 years, yet coal also prevents an environmental challenge." - April, 2005, in Washington.
"We look forward to hearing your vision, so we can more better do our job." - Sept. 20, 2005, in Gulfport, Miss.
"I can't wait to join you in the joy of welcoming neighbors back into neighborhoods, and small businesses up and running, and cutting those ribbons that somebody is creating new jobs." - Sept. 5, 2005, when Bush met with residents of Poplarville, Miss., in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?
President George W. Bush, during a January, 2000campaign event in South Carolina
"It was not always a given that the United States and America would have a close relationship. After all, 60 years we were at war 60 years ago we were at war." - June 29, 2006, at the White House, where Bush met with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.
"Make no mistake about it, I understand how tough it is, sir. I talk to families who die." - Dec. 7, 2006, in a joint appearance with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
"These are big achievements for this country, and the people of Bulgaria ought to be proud of the achievements that they have achieved." - June 11, 2007, in Sofia, Bulgaria.
"Mr. Prime Minister, thank you for your introduction. Thank you for being such a fine host for the OPEC summit." - September 2007, in Sydney, Australia, where Bush was attending an APEC summit.
"Thank you, Your Holiness. Awesome speech." - April 16, 2008, at a ceremony welcoming Pope Benedict XVI to the White House.
"The fact that they purchased the machine meant somebody had to make the machine. And when somebody makes a machine, it means there's jobs at the machine-making place." - May 27, 2008, in Mesa, Ariz.
"And they have no disregard for human life." - July 15, 2008, at the White House. Bush was referring to enemy fighters in Afghanistan.
"I remember meeting a mother of a child who was abducted by the North Koreans right here in the Oval Office." - June 26, 2008, during a Rose Garden news briefing.
"Throughout our history, the words of the Declaration have inspired immigrants from around the world to set sail to our shores. These immigrants have helped transform 13 small colonies into a great and growing nation of more than 300 people." - July 4, 2008 in Virginia.
"The people in Louisiana must know that all across our country there's a lot of prayer - prayer for those whose lives have been turned upside down. And I'm one of them. It's good to come down here." - Sept. 3, 2008, at an emergency operations center in Baton Rouge, La., after Hurricane Gustav hit the Gulf Coast.
"This thaw - took a while to thaw, it's going to take a while to unthaw." Oct. 20, 2008, in Alexandria, La., as he discussed the economy and frozen credit markets.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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yes, embarrassing yourself is so much worse than insulting an ally (oops, allies)
here's another:
"Irony alert! Obama campaigned on limiting lobbyist influence, and imposed a lobbyist ban at the White House so onerous that he’s been forced to issue dozens of waivers to it. His stimulus team promulgated an unconstitutional restriction on communications with lobbyists that looks more like a scheme to avoid prostitution entrapment. Yet K Street hasn’t been limited at all — in fact, they’re positively energized.
Why? Government funding attracts lobbyists, and the more there is, the more you’ll get. When government takes taxes out of the pockets of its citizens for the purposes of redistribution, especially on the massive scale of Porkulus, the rewards make it worth hiring people to get some of the money back. As more and more people decide to organize to get their hands on government project money, more and more lobbyists get hired to represent them — and they make more and more connections with politicians in Washington to ensure their success.
If Obama really wanted to eliminate lobbyist influence, he would cut government spending and starve lobbyists out of K Street. That’s why the Republican Revolution went off the rails when Tom DeLay concocted the K Street Project in the mid-1990s, purportedly to create a permanent Republican majority. In order to kiss up to K Street, DeLay and the GOP had to guarantee an increasing flow of government funds as spoils to split for lobbyists and their clients. Obama’s Porkulus simply takes the same approach, magnified exponentially.
The explosion of employment on K Street is ironic … and utterly predictable."
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Mar 31, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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LOL, where did you find that?
Perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
keep up the good work.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 31, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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"so Norwegian, got to ask you why you think he has nominated so many people who have had to bail due to their selfishness and compromised legal status? "
This stuff only comes to light because of the high standards. A guy like Cheney never could have been vice-president under Obama and Bush had a bunch of convicted Nixon henchmen on the staff to boot. He just didn't care and shut up people who would object.
Peace
Karl
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apogee
climber
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bookworm, for a supposed intellectual, you follow some wierd blogs. You have posted tons of links from the 'Hot Air' website, which is nothing more than another liberal-bashing negative-fest.
(Here's the tagline from their 'about' page:
Welcome to the world’s first full-service conservative Internet broadcast network!)
http://hotair.com/about/
That site is right down there with Faux News, Scumbaugh, and all the similar raving lunatic rags. Do you ever read anything else? Why would anyone consider those links to be anything but Krap™?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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apogee...excellent point, attack the messenger and ignore the message...especially when the message contains FACTS that run counter to your vision of the president (apparently, the office as well as the man)...maybe the new york times is a "real" news source?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/world/europe/02ipod.html?ref=global-home
does newsweek pass muster?
"Obama hasn't yet appointed a chief of protocol and his staffers, still unpacking, didn't realize that the State Department has an entire office dedicated to foreign visits."
talk about amateurs! obama's staff (should we not expect the "smartest man to ever run for president" to hire smart people?) "DIDN'T KNOW" the state department (do they know that's a cabinet department?) employs experts in foreign relations?
of course, to people who get their "news" from the daily show, fox news understandably seems rather fake
oh, and here's the latest; "the smartest man to ever run for president" apparently doesn't understand the difference between england and great britain:
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/02/obamateurism-of-the-day-11/
apogee, have you ever thought the reason you're surprised (or angry) when i post these links that show obama in reality (as opposed to your dream) is that the media you consult are actively ignoring/hiding reality?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"You have posted tons of links from the 'Hot Air' website, which is nothing more than another liberal-bashing negative-fest."
you're so right (oops, i mean correct) apogee...take a look at this right wing hack piece:
"The Socialist Solution to the Crisis
Thatcherism and Reaganism have failed on a momentous scale."
and where would i read such ignorant claptrap?
only in a right wing rag, of course:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123863093490780727.html#mod=rss_opinion_main
and where did i (a conservative) find a piece extolling the virtues of socialism while bashing reagan and thatcher?
http://hotair.com/
that's right (and i mean it both ways this time) that "liberal-bashing negative-fest" known as hotair.com...just look at all the links to right wing hate mongers:
newsweek
cbs
daily mail
time
associated press
huffpo
stay away, apogee, stay away...just "cling" to your prejudices
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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you know apogee, when you're right, you're right...
here's ed morrissey, your "liberal-bashing negative-fest" host of hotair.com, viciously bashing a prominent cable tv host for poor reporting:
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/02/video-smoking-gun-on-nyt-spiked-acorn-story/
i have to admit this is one of the most egregious examples of a "liberal-bashing negative-fest" i have ever seen...i can certainly see why you're so wary of hotair.com...i mean, if any of your media outlets committed such an act of conservative-bashing i'm sure you would banish them from your laptop
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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here's another liberal-bashing negative fest for you apogee: the politico
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20871.html
so, the obama's treasury secretary secures retention bonuses for some aig folks, obama pretends he didn't know and then fans the flames of outrage (against innocent civilians who had alread received death threats), and now he tells bankers he's the only one who can protect them???
first he was the messiah; now he's the godfather
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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jstan, do you have esp or just a vivid imagination? ok, tell me what the queen of england is thinking right now...
yes, yes, yes, obama is ivy educated; so is W...barry was one of many editors of the harvard law review, but he never wrote anything of significance while serving in that capacity...in fact, his education as a whole seems to have been redacted
but i digress...
remember when W told an audience that he speaks "mexican"? remember how he was excoriated by the media? did you hear barry tell his austrian audience that he does NOT speak "austrian"? i'll assume the media (and most libs) don't know that austrians don't speak austrian because there's no such language; austrians speak primarily GERMAN...and while we're on the subject, remember when barry admonished americans for NOT being bilingual? ironic that W is bilingual, but barry, with his many opportunities to learn another language (not to mention being the smartest man to ever run for president) only speaks american
remember when barry's sec of state told a room (a BIG room) full of europeans that american democracy is older than europe's? well, barry just told a room full of turks that turkey is an older civilization than america...um, barry, turkey was founded in 1923...after the collapse of the ottoman empire...kemal ataturk actually steered the new nation away from the ottoman civilization governed by islam to a secular government
and how about that near toe-touching bow to the king of saudi arabia??? first, the media had a field day because they thought wonderboy clinton inclined his head a little too much when greeting the prime minister of japan (bowing in japan is a sign of respect and humility; equals bow to each other so clinton's "gaffe" was not so significant)...then there was some buzz when barry nodded to the queen...by the way, protocol around the world declares that heads of state do not bow to monarchs of other nations, and this was established as american protocol with george washington...but, then, barry genuflects to the king of saudi arabia??? buzz over a nod to the monarch of our most stalwart ally but nothing for a full-on kowtow to a monarch who rules a regime that oppresses women, homosexuals, and non-muslims, not to mention sponsoring the virulent wahhabi brand of islam that breeds homicide bombers around the world???
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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BW writes
"buzz over a nod to the monarch of our most stalwart ally but nothing for a full-on kowtow to a monarch who rules a regime that oppresses women, homosexuals, and non-muslims, not to mention sponsoring the virulent wahhabi brand of islam that breeds homicide bombers around the world???"
Not like you wrote anything when Bush held his hand or kissed him publically
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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thanks, karl, i forgot about that one, for which the media did go into a feeding frenzy...i didn't like it; however, kissing when greeting is a cultural norm for arabs...like our handshakes...kissing and holding hands do NOT suggest submission...a bow does
barry's grand apology tour would have been bad enough, but this genuflection will be seen as a sure sign of weakness...the smartest man to ever run for president should understand the significance of symbolism (he did choose for his swearing in lincoln's inaugural bible) so either he isn't very smart or he actually believes everything he is saying and doing will bolster america's standing in the world (i guess those are redundant)
you know, when i go to a fancy restaurant, i watch what other people do--which fork they use for the salad, etc--do you think barry noticed he was the ONLY head of state in that room to bow to the king of saudi arabia? i don't know, maybe he's so full of himself (dare i say "arrogant) that he wasn't paying attention...or maybe he thinks he should bow to the king of saudi arabia because he is in with the real "big oil"...or maybe he really is muslim
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 13, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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first, he said he would close gitmo, then he said, "ummm...not so fast"
first, he said rendition was bad, then he said, "ummm...it's not really that bad"
first, he said we must give enemy combatants...oops, i mean overseas contingency operations special guests full civil rights in our justice system, then he said, "ummm...just kidding"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/11/world/asia/11bagram.html?_r=4&partner=msnbcpolitics&emc=rss
who knew that "thrill up the leg" was just a delayed reaction to W's ability to keep us safe
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 13, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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anthrax? lol. Yes, the huge anthrax epidemic. How tight are you wearing that tinfoil hat?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 13, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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please, please, please, dr. f, please explain why we haven't been attacked in 8.5 years? is it because 9/11 was meant to be just a warning, and the bad guys realized maybe they went too far? or maybe because the bad guys had a change of heart? or maybe because the bad guys decided that 3,000 innocent civilians dead and 72 virgins waiting eagerly wasn't a good enough deal? or maybe because the bad guys really are very patient and knew if they just waited 7 years then we'd elect somebody who can reform the great satan?
i know, i know, i've asked this question before, but nobody ever gives me an answer...ok, i'll admit it: i'm a republican droid, an ignorant hack, a brainwashed groupie who thinks W's policies prevented the bad guys from attacking us for 8.5 years...i'll admit anything you want if you can just explain to me why we haven't been attacked since 9/11...PLEEEEEEEEEASE
and then, dr f., could you please explain this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4425135/Barack-Obama-to-allow-anti-terror-rendition-to-continue.html
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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We haven't been attacked in 8.5 years because Dick Cheney got caught as the attacker.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 13, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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"i'll admit anything you want if you can just explain to me why we haven't been attacked since 9/11"
Because the terrorist threat has been blown WAY out of proportion. They got very lucky using our own planes against us in a suicide attack that can't happen again.
Why aren't there terrorists setting wildfires all over the west? 1 guy with a book of matches could do incredible damage. The risk of terrorism is lower than getting hit by lighting. The fear in so many people over a such a miniscule threat would be laughable if Bushco didn't use their naivitee to pull a fast one on 51% of the country and attack a country that was no threat to us, spy on all americans etc.
So you can admit you are deluded. Thanks.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 13, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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MAYBE We haven't been attacked in 7.5 years ( not 8.5 ) because there have never been that many attacks against the US. Most attacks on US soil have been by americans.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 13, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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While sitting in on a children's reading class Bush was told "The country is under attack".
The moron sat there for SEVEN MINUTES continuing to read to the children until he was AGAIN told "The country is under attack".
What an incredible moron.
What incredible morons who voted for him
What incredible morons who voted for Caribou Barbie.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 13, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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Americans More Optimistic; Still Hate GOP
The latest New York Times poll is loaded with good news for the Obama administration and news that would be devastating for the GOP if it were ever able to penetrate the conservative-media echo chamber. While the public is still pretty pessimistic about the future, it's considerably less so than it was before Barack Obama took office. Thirty-nine percent of respondents in the Times poll think the country is going in the right direction and 53 percent say the wrong direction, a substantial improvement from January, when the numbers were 15 and 79, respectively. Similarly, 20 percent of those polled think the economy is getting better and 34 percent worse, versus 7 and 54 in January.
But it's the political numbers that are truly striking. Obama has a 66 percent approval rating, which is the highest this poll has recorded, while the GOP's favorability is at 31 percent, the lowest the poll has recorded in 25 years of asking the question. Arguably more remarkable still is that, asked whether Obama or the GOP Congress would be more likely to make "the right decisions about the nation's economy," respondents broke for Obama 63 percent to 20 percent. That means that even within the 31 percent rump that holds a positive view of the GOP, at least a third trust Obama's instincts on the economy equally or more. And why shouldn't they? Despite Rush Limbaugh's best efforts just 2 percent of respondents blame Obama for the state of the economy, compared to 33 percent who blame George W. Bush. (Wall Street and Congress come in for 21 and 11 percent, respectively.)
The Democratic Party, while not as popular as its leader, is still pretty popular, with 56 percent favorability. Moreover, 19 percent fewer respondents think the Democrats are too heavily influenced by "big business" than feel the Republicans are, and the Dems have a massive 35-point edge on the question of "which party is more concerned with the needs and problems of people like yourself." The poll also gives the Dems a 16-point edge in respondent self-identification, up from 10 points in February, and just a tick off the inaugural high of 18 points. (Without sifting through the figures too obsessively, this looks like the largest edge since 1992.)
There's more along these lines on taxes (74 percent of respondents think raising them on those earning over $250K is a "good idea"), health care (57 percent say they're willing to pay higher taxes themselves for universal coverage), foreign policy, and the like. The usual caveats all apply, of course--it's just one poll (though others seem to generally conform), public sentiment is volatile, etc., etc. Still, I encourage anyone interested to give the whole poll a look.
--Christopher Orr
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 06:46am PT
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oh right, it was "an inside job"...explain how, please...how could the "moron" plan and execute such a highly complex attack FROM THE INSIDE without leaving any evidence? how could the "moron" plan and execute such a highly complex attack that REQUIRED the cooperation of hundreds without a leak or a whistleblower?
"Why aren't there terrorists setting wildfires all over the west? 1 guy with a book of matches could do incredible damage."
ah, yes, the new face of the terrorist...oops, i mean, "man-caused disaster causers"...i guess you're right; we aren't any safer as evidenced by all the wild fires and house fires and car fires that have struck terror in the hearts of americans over the last 7 years
"Because the terrorist threat has been blown WAY out of proportion. They got very lucky using our own planes against us in a suicide attack that can't happen again."
Terrorist Acts Suspected of or Inspired by al-Qaeda
1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.
1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.
2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.
2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 11 German tourists.
2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.
2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.
2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.
2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, housing compound, killing 17.
2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.
2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,500.
2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.
2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.
2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).
2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.
2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.
2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.
2006 (Jan.): Two suicide bombers carrying police badges blow themselves up near a celebration at the Police Academy in Baghdad, killing nearly 20 police officers. Al-Qaeda in Iraq takes responsibility.
2006 (Aug.): Police arrest 24 British-born Muslims, most of whom have ties to Pakistan, who had allegedly plotted to blow up as many as 10 planes using liquid explosives. Officials say details of the plan were similar to other schemes devised by al-Qaeda.
2007 (April): Suicide bombers attack a government building in Algeria's capital, Algiers, killing 35 and wounding hundreds more. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb claims responsibility.
2007 (April): Eight people, including two Iraqi legislators, die when a suicide bomber strikes inside the Parliament building in Baghdad. An organization that includes al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia claims responsibility. In another attack, the Sarafiya Bridge that spans the Tigris River is destroyed.
2007 (June): British police find car bombs in two vehicles in London. The attackers reportedly tried to detonate the bombs using cell phones but failed. Government officials say al-Qaeda is linked to the attempted attack. The following day, an SUV carrying bombs bursts into flames after it slams into an entrance to Glasgow Airport. Officials say the attacks are connected.
2007 (December): As many as 60 people are killed in two suicide attacks near United Nations offices and government buildings in Algiers, Algeria. The bombings occur within minutes of each other. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, formerly called the Salafist Group for Preaching, claims responsibility. It's the worst attack in the Algeria in more than 10 years.
2008 (January): In the worst attack in Iraq in months, a suicide bomber kills 30 people at a home where mourners were paying their respects to the family of a man killed in a car bomb. The Iraqi military blames the attack on al-Qaeda in Iraq.
2008 (February): Nearly 100 people die when two women suicide bombers, who are believed to be mentally impaired, attack crowded pet markets in eastern Baghdad. The U.S. military says al-Qaeda in Iraq has been recruiting female patients at psychiatric hospitals to become suicide bombers.
2008 (April): A suicide bomber attacks the funeral for two nephews of a prominent Sunni tribal leader, Sheik Kareem Kamil al-Azawi, killing 30 people in Iraq's Diyala Province.
2008 (April): A suicide car bomber kills 40 people in Baquba, the capital of Diyala Province in Iraq.
2008 (April): Thirty-five people die and 62 are injured when a woman detonates explosives that she was carrying under her dress in a busy shopping district in Iraq’s Diyala Province.
2008 (May): At least 12 worshipers are killed and 44 more injured when a bomb explodes in the Bin Salman mosque near Sana, Yemen.
2008 (May): An al-Qaeda suicide bomber detonates explosives in Hit, a city in the Anbar Province of Iraq, killing six policemen and four civilians, and injuring 12 other people.
2008 (June): A female suicide bomber kills 15 and wounds 40 others, including seven Iraqi policemen, near a courthouse in Baquba, Iraq.
2008 (June): A suicide bomber kills at least 20 people at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.
2008 (August): About two dozens worshippers are killed in three separate attacks as they make their way toward Karbala to celebrate the birthday of 9th-century imam Muhammad al-Mahdi. Iraqi officials blame al-Qaeda in Iraq for the attacks.
2008 (August): A bomb left on the street explodes and tears through a bus carrying Lebanese troops, killing 15 people, nine of them soldiers. No one claims responsibility for the attack, but in 2007, the army fought an al-Qaeda linked Islamist group in Tripoli.
2008 (August): At least 43 people are killed when a suicide bomber drives an explosives-laden car into a police academy in Issers, a town in northern Algeria.
2008 (August): Two car bombs explode at a military command and a hotel in Bouira, killing a dozen people. No group takes responsibility for either attack, Algerian officials said they suspect al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb is behind the bombings.
2008 (September): In its first acknowledged ground attack inside Pakistan, U.S. commandos raid a village that is home to al-Qaeda militants in the tribal region near the border with Afghanistan. The number of casualties is unclear.
2008 (September): A car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.
2008 (November): at least 28 people die and over 60 more are injured when three bombs explode minutes apart in Baghdad, Iraq. Officials suspect the explosions are linked to al-Qaeda.
yes, just call obl "lucky"; just look at the streak of good luck he's had...except in america, the unluckiest place in the world
"W could have stopped 911
Thats a fact"
how could a "moron" accomplish in 8 months in office what the first boy genius couldn't accomplish in 8 years in office? by the way, have you shared this information with barry? apparently your definition of "moron" is waaaay different than barry's; if you explained to him what a moron is, he'd probably stop making fun of the special olympics (right, probably not)
"He dealt with 911 like a coward and a traitor
Thats a fact"
facts need to be validated by...well...facts...got any?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:35am PT
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Bookworm,
So if we take your argument as "truth" what do you suggest "we" do?
Stay on the track Bush started us on or some other route?
What do you think is the causation for these attacks being perpetrated and/or planned?
I think everyone can agree that attacks have happened, (obvious), and are still being planned.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 10:53am PT
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i do, and commend obama for "staying on the track W started us on"
1) so-called "domestic surveillance" remains in place
2) gitmo ain't going anywhere anytime soon
3) rendition continues
4) no habeas corpus for our "overseas contingency operations" special guests
5) using the full might of the american military to protect american citizens from terrorists...oops, i meant pirates
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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"I'm not advocating any conspirancy theory."
"If you look in to more, it seems that it was more than just allowed, but even set up to make it easier for the terrorists to complete their mission"
i'm not saying obama has completely reversed himself on W's national security policies...especially the most controversial ones
obama has completely reversed himself on W's national security policies...especially the most controversial ones
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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"Rome was not built in a day." Nor was the "city on the hill" that the Pilgrims had a thing about.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 14, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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bookworm, your cut and paste job still didn't address that the risk of terrorism is less than being killed by lightning.
It must suck to be afraid of something that has so little risk. But I guess that's why the call them terrorists. They terrorize the gullible.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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perhaps so few people are killed by lightning because so many take precautions against it
but if you think the terrorism threat is overrated, then 1) why aren't you railing against obama's continuation of key Bush security policies like "domestic surveillance", rendition, no civil rights for our guests in gitmo, etc.? 2) when will you begin protesting the fascist tsa security checks at the airport? 3) when will you start pressuring your representative and senators to close gitmo immediately and give all detainees full trials in YOUR local courthouse? 4) why don't you call for the dismantling of dhs--why do we need a whole cabinet department to oversee a lie?
by the way, dr. f, why would rush and hannity go to jail? do you oppose free speech?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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from the recently released report from obama's sec of homeland security:
"The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks."
this is the woman who, in her first report to congress, never once referred to terrorism/terrorists (which i'm sure makes dr. f and fet happy) but insteand used the term "man-caused disasters"
but here, in an official report, specifically refers to "military veterans"--you know, the guys over there fighting the TERRORISTS and keeping us safe from TERRORISM--as "potential...TERRORISTS"
so orwell was right, just 25 years too early
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
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we're all entitled to our own opinions, dr. f, but not our own facts
give me some facts to validate your accusations against rush and hannity
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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1) I am, and they should and seem to be returning to American values asap.
2) I complain everytime I have to take my shoes off. What a stupid frickin waste of time. I moron tries a shoe bomb that didn't work and now everbody needs to remove their shoes. Stupid.
3) you can't close the mess that is gitmo immediately, and Obama seems to be working on it. The accused should get rights to a fair (military or a newly create type of)trial. There have been many innocent people locked up there, and that's what rights are most about - protecting the innocent. And we should still treat terrorist with more fairness and justice than they are willing to show us.
Sacrificing our ideals, justice, and privacy is unAmerican and unnecessary. Those are actions of the weak minded and fearful. America is strong enough to defeat anyone without resorting to evil actions.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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'never once referred to terrorism/terrorists (which i'm sure makes dr. f and fet happy)"
Bookworm, are you really so simplistic to think that I'm a liberal? Nevermind, don't answer that, I know you are.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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You can hardly object to resources being used to reintegrate veterans into communities, and provide services to them. The US has learned the hard way that not doing so has higher costs.
The US military loves to do studies - the whole industrial warfare thing. After World War II, they did some studies to try to determine why the US army was less effective, man for man, than the German. There were a variety of causes - better training, much better junior officers, large professional army, superior equipment. (The US outproduced Germany, with generally inferior equipment.) One thing they found that was only about 10% of front line infantry troops admitted to deliberately shooting at enemy soldiers. Their social conditioning was too strong to allow them to do so.
Naturally the US army managers made use of this information. They developed programs to desocialize as many recruits as they could, and break down their conditioning, so that they'd shoot to kill. They forgot to develop programs to un-de-socialize these people after they returned to civilian life. That's one of the reasons why so many Vietnam veterans ended up with PTSD and related problems, although combat experience tends to leave scars on everyone.
Since Vietnam, and the Gulf War, the military knows it has to help veterans readjust. Otherwise, the number of angry if not asocial veterans is high, and the chances of their coming to grief, and causing others to come to grief, are high. The Oklahoma City bombing being just one example of what can happen.
Helping veterans re-adjust, and being aware that some of them have been temporarily or permanently f*#ked up by their training and experience, does not dishonour them.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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like three hot meals prepared by a chef and strictly following islamic rules? hot showers and warm beds? free korans? undisturbed time to pray? exercise?
tell you what, fet, how about if i willingly allow myself to be locked up in gitmo and receive the exact same treatment as the detainees (dr.f can be your observer to verify) and you take a climbing trip to waziristan...i'll stay in gitmo for as long as you want to climb...or until you get your head chopped off, whichever comes first
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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i don't know what you are, fet, i just respond to your posts:
"It must suck to be afraid of something that has so little risk. But I guess that's why the call them terrorists. They terrorize the gullible."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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Bookworm, have you given more thought to the changes your party has to make to expand your core voting base in order to compete again someday in national elections?
A month or so ago I asked you about this.
Do you have any new ideas to make more people vote Republican?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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Besides coming up with a new way to scare people?
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apogee
climber
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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{crickets}
Weeelllll, don't feel too bad about not having any ideas, booky-ol-pal, 'cause you've got lots of company...the entire GOP is just as clueless as you are (in regards to ideas, that is).
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
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Norton...bookwornout can't answer that. The public isn't buying the Republican's brand of crap anymore. Their base continues to shrink at a rapid rate and they continue to use tactics that made people leave the party.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 14, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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I still want to hear his ideas.
He is a Republican and clearly knows the GOP talking points.
I am sure he reads and has been talking with like thinking people about what his party needs to be going, aggressively and right now, in order to expand the number of people who would be willing to vote Republican. He knows the GOP voting base is not sufficient to compete to win elections.
This has got to be foremost in the minds of any Republican who wants his party to return to a position to legislate their conservative agenda.
I want to hear his thoughts. There is no point in being a Republican in name only, you have to be in office or whats the point?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Apr 14, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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the sanctity of marriage, Gud help us, THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE. I have seen the end and it comes waving a rainbow banner...damn you Obama, damn you straight to (heterosexual) hell!!1111
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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actually, i think the gop needs to return to its core values, primarily fiscal responsibility...the gop that was elected in 1994-2004 is not the gop that lost in 2006-2008
i do believe that socially, the country is slightly right, hence 30 statewide referendums on gay marriage all going against
i think a majority of americans do not believe that america has anything to apologize for...a majority of americans know a terrorist when they see one, whether he looks like obl or tim mcveigh...a majority of americans prefer plain talk--call terrorism what it is and not "man caused disasters"...a majority of americans willingly and faithfully pay taxes every year but think the government should be held accountable for how it spends our tax dollars...a majority of americans believe in free enterprise, which means failure as well as success...a majority of americans do not believe that government should solve our problems or even can...a majority of americans believe in the democratic process even when it doesn't go their way
it's all pretty simple stuff
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apogee
climber
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Apr 14, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
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"actually, i think the gop needs to return to its core values, primarily fiscal responsibility..."
Does this mean you favor returning to true conservative core values, i.e. pre-Reagan, pre-Religious Right? The true Conservative values were hijacked by the RR back in the late 70's. Ready to go that far back? If so, I just might be there with you.
"i do believe that socially, the country is slightly right, hence 30 statewide referendums on gay marriage all going against"
We'll see about that- it ain't over till it's over. When an iconic GOP state like Iowa goes in favor of gay marriage, the issue is anything but settled. Those who staunchly oppose gay marriage are getting and dying, and the newer generations are far less opposed.
"it's all pretty simple stuff"
That last long paragraph is not a particularly specific listing of ways that the GOP could win- if it really was 'pretty simple stuff', then why has the GOP failed so miserably?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 14, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
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This is what the GOP is up against. WHAT CAN THEY DO ??
Americans More Optimistic; Still Hate GOP
The latest New York Times poll is loaded with good news for the Obama administration and news that would be devastating for the GOP if it were ever able to penetrate the conservative-media echo chamber. While the public is still pretty pessimistic about the future, it's considerably less so than it was before Barack Obama took office. Thirty-nine percent of respondents in the Times poll think the country is going in the right direction and 53 percent say the wrong direction, a substantial improvement from January, when the numbers were 15 and 79, respectively. Similarly, 20 percent of those polled think the economy is getting better and 34 percent worse, versus 7 and 54 in January.
But it's the political numbers that are truly striking. Obama has a 66 percent approval rating, which is the highest this poll has recorded, while the GOP's favorability is at 31 percent, the lowest the poll has recorded in 25 years of asking the question. Arguably more remarkable still is that, asked whether Obama or the GOP Congress would be more likely to make "the right decisions about the nation's economy," respondents broke for Obama 63 percent to 20 percent. That means that even within the 31 percent rump that holds a positive view of the GOP, at least a third trust Obama's instincts on the economy equally or more. And why shouldn't they? Despite Rush Limbaugh's best efforts just 2 percent of respondents blame Obama for the state of the economy, compared to 33 percent who blame George W. Bush. (Wall Street and Congress come in for 21 and 11 percent, respectively.)
The Democratic Party, while not as popular as its leader, is still pretty popular, with 56 percent favorability. Moreover, 19 percent fewer respondents think the Democrats are too heavily influenced by "big business" than feel the Republicans are, and the Dems have a massive 35-point edge on the question of "which party is more concerned with the needs and problems of people like yourself." The poll also gives the Dems a 16-point edge in respondent self-identification, up from 10 points in February, and just a tick off the inaugural high of 18 points. (Without sifting through the figures too obsessively, this looks like the largest edge since 1992.)
There's more along these lines on taxes (74 percent of respondents think raising them on those earning over $250K is a "good idea"), health care (57 percent say they're willing to pay higher taxes themselves for universal coverage), foreign policy, and the like. The usual caveats all apply, of course--it's just one poll (though others seem to generally conform), public sentiment is volatile, etc., etc. Still, I encourage anyone interested to give the whole poll a look.
--Christopher Orr
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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Went into Turner's today. It was on the way home and I'd figured they might have Seamgrip or Aquaseal as well as some 22 and 9mm ammo for plinkin.
The place was bare. If you could shoot it they were sold out.
Only a couple of dirty harry style 12" barrel revolvers in the display case, only a few trap style shotguns and oddball caliber bolt action rifles on the shelf. No pistol powder or primers either.
This in peacefull suburbia.
Yep he's popular!
No Seamgrip either.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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Went to two WallMarts today and three independent gun shops.
No ammo, none, for my Glock 40 or Kahr 9mm.
Irrational fear that Obama is going to come to their houses and take away their guns and ammo.
Hatred, ignorance,fear. All fueled by right wing talking heads.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 15, 2009 - 09:06am PT
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doesn't obama rehearse his speeches (or even read them)? how hard is it for the smartest man to ever run for president (and who feels so passionately about democracy) to remember the slogan from the french revolution...while giving a speech on unity, of which the slogan is a key component, in france to an audience of french people?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOy66WYXqaQ
and he doesn't even have the wherewithal to clear his throat or maybe re-emphasize the idea of equality, but instead stands there frozen in position like a deer in the headlights
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 15, 2009 - 10:18am PT
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Yeah Bookworm, we know you f*#king love to hate Obama and cut him down every chance you get. We get that.
Well get used to having a stupid President for the next eight years. Get used to seeing him on the news every day saying stupid things that piss you off. He IS a moron, he has a hidden agenda, he just wants to hurt our beloved America, he is a "socialist",
he really was not born in the USA, he really is a secret muslim.
He is a stupid piece of sh#t human being, plus he wants to take away our guns. There go our precious freedoms!
You can copy this and paste it everyday, all day as your reply to every political thread. This will save you a lot of time to use looking up Obama failings to bring to our attention.
We get it, your disgust with all things "liberal" is unlimited.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 15, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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let's see if i understand this correctly...we have been developing a missile defense system for many years; despite legitimate criticism, the technology has performed well enough to warrant pursuing...obama does not think we should spend money on the system partly because he says the technology can't/won't/doesn't work...north korea announces a long-range missile launch, that is, they announce they will violate un resolutions...this provides a perfect opportunity to test the missile defense technology, a real-life real time test to determine whether we should continue to pursue such a defense system...but obama refuses to because he doesn't want to provoke north korea and possibly disrupt "talks" that have been ongoing for decades with absolutely no results?
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/15/us-failed-to-use-best-radar-for-n-korea-missile/print/
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 15, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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"let's see if i understand this correctly...we have been developing a missile defense system for many years; despite legitimate criticism, the technology has performed well enough to warrant pursuing...obama does not think we should spend money on the system partly because he says the technology can't/won't/doesn't work...north korea announces a long-range missile launch, that is, they announce they will violate un resolutions...this provides a perfect opportunity to test the missile defense technology, a real-life real time test to determine whether we should continue to pursue such a defense system...but obama refuses to because he doesn't want to provoke north korea and possibly disrupt "talks" that have been ongoing for decades with absolutely no results? "
Why don't you mail some teabags about it.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 15, 2009 - 07:25pm PT
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"Shooting a North Korean missle out the air, starting a war with N. Korea, having the Russians and China support N. Korea in their struggle"
dr. f, your problem is that you don't read; the technology that the navy wanted to test on the noko missile launch was radar tracking NOT weapons; you would understand that if you actually read the article instead of just spewing...see, you need radar that works in order to have missiles that can shoot down enemy missiles (not to mention the other uses for radar)...tracking a missile launch that defies un resolutions is NOT provocative; in fact, it's entirely sensible especially if that missile is launched by a rabidly dictatorial regime like noko's
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 15, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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POST ONLY WHAT SUPPORTS YOUR BIAS, RIGHT GUYS?
EXCEPT THE TRUTH HAS A PUSSY WEAKASS LIBERAL BIAS. DEAL WITH IT.
07.04.2009
Americans More Optimistic; Still Hate GOP
The latest New York Times poll is loaded with good news for the Obama administration and news that would be devastating for the GOP if it were ever able to penetrate the conservative-media echo chamber. While the public is still pretty pessimistic about the future, it's considerably less so than it was before Barack Obama took office. Thirty-nine percent of respondents in the Times poll think the country is going in the right direction and 53 percent say the wrong direction, a substantial improvement from January, when the numbers were 15 and 79, respectively. Similarly, 20 percent of those polled think the economy is getting better and 34 percent worse, versus 7 and 54 in January.
But it's the political numbers that are truly striking. Obama has a 66 percent approval rating, which is the highest this poll has recorded, while the GOP's favorability is at 31 percent, the lowest the poll has recorded in 25 years of asking the question. Arguably more remarkable still is that, asked whether Obama or the GOP Congress would be more likely to make "the right decisions about the nation's economy," respondents broke for Obama 63 percent to 20 percent. That means that even within the 31 percent rump that holds a positive view of the GOP, at least a third trust Obama's instincts on the economy equally or more. And why shouldn't they? Despite Rush Limbaugh's best efforts just 2 percent of respondents blame Obama for the state of the economy, compared to 33 percent who blame George W. Bush. (Wall Street and Congress come in for 21 and 11 percent, respectively.)
The Democratic Party, while not as popular as its leader, is still pretty popular, with 56 percent favorability. Moreover, 19 percent fewer respondents think the Democrats are too heavily influenced by "big business" than feel the Republicans are, and the Dems have a massive 35-point edge on the question of "which party is more concerned with the needs and problems of people like yourself." The poll also gives the Dems a 16-point edge in respondent self-identification, up from 10 points in February, and just a tick off the inaugural high of 18 points. (Without sifting through the figures too obsessively, this looks like the largest edge since 1992.)
There's more along these lines on taxes (74 percent of respondents think raising them on those earning over $250K is a "good idea"), health care (57 percent say they're willing to pay higher taxes themselves for universal coverage), foreign policy, and the like. The usual caveats all apply, of course--it's just one poll (though others seem to generally conform), public sentiment is volatile, etc., etc. Still, I encourage anyone interested to give the whole poll a look.
--Christopher Orr
Posted: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:11 PM with 15 comment(s)
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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From the Faux News link:
"Director of National Intelligence Dennis C. Blair admitted Thursday that the NSA made mistakes and intercepted the wrong communications. But he emphasized the number of errors is small to the overall collection efforts and that each error is investigated, leading to corrective measures to prevent reoccurrences."
When did the Bush Administration ever admit that it wrongly engaged in these kinds of activities?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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You're so clueless, skip.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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Because you provided nothing.
You said in the other thread "Now he is even calling his political opponents "terrorists." Something he won't even call those that actually claim they are doing so. "
He never said such a thing or even anything close to that and you still provided nothing that supported your statement. Rather than reading the actual language (I did) in the report, your provided a columnist's (Debra Saunder's--ack) take on it.
Here is what you quoted from the column:
"The "right-wing" document, however, targeted, not activities, but political thought -- opposition to abortion, immigration amnesty and gun laws. While the "left-wing" assessment reported on known criminal activities, the "right-wing" document started with the acknowledgment that Department of Homeland Security intelligence "has no specific information that domestic rightwing terrorists are currently planning acts of violence." (The italics are mine.) Then: "The economic downturn and the election of the first African American president present unique drivers for right-wing radicalization and recruitment."
Funny how Saunders doesn't mention the actual harrassment of anti war protestors (we know what a violent bunch they are) during the last administration or the "do not fly list" that was wildly inconsistent, but hey, that's just past stuff I suppose.
Here is an indirect link to the DHS report.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/14/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4944701.shtml
(I can't find a direct link to it, but it is there in the text.)
Bad Memo? Perhaps. (And BTW, it was actually begun under the last admin.) But it is not half as lame as the hyperbole about it being spewed from the right. And the truth is that right wing extremism has killed many more Americans domesitically than left-wing extremism, many holding those beliefs (Eric Rudolph, KKK, Aryan Nations, McVeigh, militias, etc.). And I think getting ahead of this rather than reacting to the problem is a good thing.
So no Skip, you didn't provide sh#t.
BTW, the Constitution provides for income taxes, so once again you are wrong about due process violations you mentioned in the other thread. Whines about very modest hikes in progressive taxation--and I actually pay more than most people--are so selfish and tiresome. So cry me a river.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Yeah Bookworm. The Bush Admin never improperly wiretapped people. LOL!!!
Too funny.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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"The National Security Agency intercepted Americans' e-mails and phone calls in recent months on a scale that went beyond limits set by Congress last year, The New York Times reported on Wednesday."
note that this is from the nyt--that rightwing rag...and W's administration NEVER violated any "limits set by congress"
"the Times said the NSA had engaged in "'over-collection' of domestic communications of Americans."'
obama's nsa tapped "domestic communications"...the ONLY thing W's administration was accused of was tapping calls coming into the country from OUTSIDE the country and from sources known to have connections with terrorist organizations
"The agency also tried to wiretap a member of Congress without a warrant"
was W's nsa ever accused of this?
and the money quote:
"Domestic eavesdropping has been a contentious issue since 2005, when the Times revealed that for years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the NSA intercepted international phone conversations and e-mails involving U.S. citizens without a warrant."
let me repeat:
"NSA intercepted international phone conversations and e-mails"
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:52pm PT
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Okay, let me repeat too:
"'Director of National Intelligence Dennis C. Blair admitted Thursday that the NSA made mistakes and intercepted the wrong communications. But he emphasized the number of errors is small to the overall collection efforts and that each error is investigated, leading to corrective measures to prevent reoccurrences.'
When did the Bush Administration ever admit that it wrongly engaged in these kinds of activities?"
I didn't say the Obama Admin didn't blow it.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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So whenever the Obama administration sez "My bad"
"Well, Bush..." will be the left's comeback?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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You're right, better to deny and lie and never correct the problem. Brilliant guys.
Edit: so let's talk about Obama instead of Bush then. I'm glad Obama is upfront about this mistake.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Apr 16, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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fellas,
these dupes pull you into their small, small world.
try to resist.
these 'men', ie skippy, worm, just passing thru, know that their money is their substance.
hence their every thought revolves around it. their every motion pivots on the notion. they fear, utterly fear losing it.
they realize, with trepedation, that without their artificial substance, they will blow away in the wind, temporarily interrupting the eternal.
captilism has made quick work of them. they've subscibed religiously to the concept, losing sight of the rest of reality.
sad loss. those folks. but let them go. don't try to argue them back into real 'livlihood.'
onward will i, and we go, without them, into a reality where money plays a role, yes. but only a cameo part of our bigger production.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Just chalk it up as another broken campaign promise:
"WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency intercepted private e-mail messages and phone calls of Americans in recent months on a scale that went beyond the broad legal limits established by Congress last year, government officials said in recent interviews.
Several intelligence officials, as well as lawyers briefed about the matter, said the N.S.A. had been engaged in “overcollection” of domestic communications of Americans. They described the practice as significant and systemic, although one official said it was believed to have been unintentional."
"The questions may not be settled yet. Intelligence officials say they are still examining the scope of the N.S.A. practices, and Congressional investigators say they hope to determine if any violations of Americans’ privacy occurred. It is not clear to what extent the agency may have actively listened in on conversations or read e-mail messages of Americans without proper court authority, rather than simply obtained access to them."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30238492/
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 16, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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"When did the Bush Administration ever admit that it wrongly engaged in these kinds of activities?"
when did the bush administration ever intercept domestic calls and emails? when did the bush administration ever spy on a member of congress?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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I forget, Bush never made any mistakes with respect to abusing power.
And, I remind you that until you admit a mistake, you can't fix it.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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Guys guys if only the republicans had been in charge none of this would have happened.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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McCain / Palin...wooohooo! The GOP ran two of the worlds biggest losers for their Presidential ticket, and that helped Obama win, fact.
McCain / Palin, the best the GOP had to offer...and now the friggin losers are complaining...hahahahah!!!!
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:27am PT
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ok, i can understand the smartest man to ever run for president might get confused about european history...europe's been around a long time...but america's less than 250 years old; he should be able to grasp at least that much...since he grew up in this country...and wants to lead this country
"The region's protectionists can be counted on one hand, and they just happen to be the same countries trying to ruin their own democracies — among them Venezuela, whose de facto dictator, Hugo Chavez, declared at the last summit in 2005 he would "bury" free trade of the Americas. With Obama failing to lead, he's effectively handing Chavez the leadership, as well as a victory.
He's also giving Cuba a victory, unilaterally loosening rules for remittances to the island, providing the bankrupt Castro dictatorship with an economic lifeline as well as a fresh pool of visitors to spy on, blackmail and potentially recruit.
Instead of taking a principled stance, Obama seems to be following the example of other countries in the region. The problem is that in letting the summit focus on his unrequited overture to Cuba, a non-democracy that isn't even allowed to take part, he dumbs down the standards of democracy. That's not leading.
Perhaps this lack of leadership is based on ignorance of history. Obama told CNN En Espanol: "There has always been a tradition of concern that the United States has been heavy-handed when it comes to foreign policy in Latin America. And that's not something that just arose during the Bush administration. That's something that dates back to the Monroe Doctrine and a long history of U.S. involvement in Latin America."
Some history: President Bush was the first U.S. leader in decades to launch no military action on a Latin country. Not very "heavy handed." In fact, his immigration plan showed he was a softie.
Meanwhile, the Monroe Doctrine was declared by President Monroe to protect Latin America's infant democracies from European takeover, a real prospect in 1823. Obama's double apology for that as Iran and Russia erect bases in the region is a bad signal to the region's real democracies — and comfort for our foes.
Right now, the hemisphere's definition of democracy is growing hazier as protectionism rises. The U.S. could lead the region on a better course, but Obama seems more interested in adulation.
What a shame that it's now left to Canada to do the heavy lifting on the actions that will genuinely advance peace and prosperity in our global neighborhood."
here's the full article: http://www.ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=324863352475181
well, what do you expect from someone who thinks there are 57 states and that turkey (founded in 1923) is an older nation than america (founded in 1776)?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 09:32am PT
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Thanks to the Cuban embargo, Cuba became a democracy and the Castros are no longer in power. It has been a smashing success.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:24am PT
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-na-obama-presidency19-2009apr19,0,1035963.story
“On the last Friday in March, President Obama summoned leaders of the banking industry to the White House, where they gathered around a mahogany table in the State Dining Room, site of many a feast. On this day there was not a piece of fruit nor can of soda in sight. At each place was a glass of water. No ice. No refills.
The president's message was hard and crusty as a slab of day-old bread.
He urged the bankers to view corporate excess through the eyes of Americans who are belt-tightening their way through the recession. Obama mentioned the carpet stains in the Oval Office, to make a frugal comparison with $1-million suites decorated with $8,000 trash cans.
The corporate chieftains protested, citing the specialization of their field and the need to pay handsomely to avoid a brain drain. Obama cut them off: "Be careful how you make those statements, gentlemen. The public isn't buying that. My administration is the only thing between you and the pitchforks."
Direct, assertive and utterly self-assured, Obama has used his broad popularity, a driving ambition and a sweeping agenda to move America in a wholly new direction.”
END OF EXCERPT
Here Obama created an image to get his point across. I can't think of a President since Truman who did this.
In response to the above-
After the War the Soviet Union invaded the eastern European countries and set up communist states. How would you say that worked out - in the long pull?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:37am PT
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oh, beautiful...obama's own fiscal responsibility is on full display today and should serve as an excellent example for those greedy corporate types...obama is demanding $100 million in total cuts from all of his agencies...that amounts to
wait for it...
.0029% of the budget!!!
yes, just call him the anti-scrooge
"My administration is the only thing between you and the pitchforks."
Direct, assertive and utterly self-assured, Obama has used his broad popularity, a driving ambition and a sweeping agenda to move America in a wholly new direction."
so noble of him, especially since he helped stoke the anger even AFTER he knew that aig execs had received death threats against their children...and after he KNEW his own treasury sec had made sure the aig bonuses were protected by the so-called stimulus bill
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:39am PT
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Truman did not face the particular disaster that Obama faced. You have no way of knowing what Truman would have done.
EDIT:
I will give the Bush administration credit for being sensitive. In the event one of Bush's prisoners drowned during water boarding- they were prepared to do a tracheotomy so they might live.
Worm you are probably correct that Obama is not sensitive to the AIG executives. Had he been more sensitive he would have altered national policy so that there might possibly be no more telephone threats.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 10:59am PT
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Skip:
Worse or better is not the issue. The challenges were different and so the responses have to be different.
We have to get out of the peculiar American Comparative Mindset. Without realizing it we phrase everything in comparative terms. Not helpful.
Truman nationalized the steel industry in 1952. At that time there was not a globalized commerce for steel. We used our own steel and we needed it for both internal and external reasons. So he nationalized an industry to break a union.
These are tough decisions and that is why Presidents make the big bucks.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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yes, let's talk to iran without preconditions...let's take seriously a guy who makes racist remarks at a conference to combat racism:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6132972.ece
what do think ahmadinejad will give barry when they meet...maybe a book explaining that the holocaust never happened? either way, i'm sure barry will consider it a "nice gesture"
come on, guys, let's compromise...how about just one precondition: iran's "elected" leader must stop calling for the destruction of israel BEFORE we approve their plans for nuclear weapons
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:14am PT
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Worm:
When you suggest "one precondition" you have to have already been down through the scenario's that will follow. What do you propose to do if Iran then gives us the now popular one finger salute? Do you have this answer? Of the seven billion people on earth you will be the first to have this one -provided it is acceptable and leads somewhere we would choose to go.
Simply to say we need to enforce a precondition at a time when our citizens are not joining the military services in large numbers to defeat Iran - is based on absence of logic, unless there is a hidden agenda disposed toward starting another war. In that case I would suggest we need to reinstitute a peacetime draft before we actually start the war. Good to know beforehand if people are going to be willing to go. Otherwise someone is going to appear to be utterly incompetent. We would not want that would we?
Skip:
I'll definitely give it a listen. Thanks.
Sean:
A lot of people contributed more to that campaign than they really could afford. They did it because they felt the alternative would, ultimately, be many times more costly.
It was Obama's ability to come up with new ideas that persuaded me. He started his own fund raising machine which besides answering the old problem of financing campaigns, also answered the question of whether he should be President. If he could not get the needed support, then necessarily, he would not have the support he needed to make decisions. Without the ability to make decisions no one in their right mind would even want to be President.
At this time efforts are being made to strengthen further the base of people who supported his election. That base may be the critical new element permitting us to find a more orderly course.
In the next election I think we will see all candidates attempting to create such a base of support. Makes a lot of sense - in a democracy. And it begins to make simple party affiliation less of a factor. That would be a very very good result.
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Sean Jones
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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I dare anyone or 10 or even a hundred of you to go into his possition and clean this mess up. Get better ratings.......
He's in deeper than anyone on Earth. Toughest job on Earth.
The support that got him in there needs to stay there. Everone pushed so hard to get him in and now it's party time again. Everyone in this country is as much to blame as anything or anyone.
Everyone needs to be up off their ass and pushing as hard as we want to see him push. Alone he's nothing. You want to see change....get off this computer, off your ass, and go make it happen....Right now.
With that said.... I better get off this thing myself.....listen to myself.....and go fix the planet right now.
To think, my plans were to go climb today....guess I have to go do something else now that I blew my mouth off..........
Bummer.
Sean.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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"What do you propose to do if Iran then gives us the now popular one finger salute?"
jstan, they've been giving us the finger since they took our people hostage in 1979...remember that little act of war?
i don't follow your logic...you seem to be saying that meeting with no preconditions is a guarantee against war? or, at least, that if we refuse to meet with them, it means we're going to start a war?
i'm simply saying that we should not meet with any nation that repeatedly calls for the destruction of one of our allies...and i criticize barry for promising to meet with mahmoud despite his anti-israel and racist rhetoric, bowing to the saudi king, and shaking hands and accepting an anti-american gift from hugo
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:31am PT
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"oh, beautiful...obama's own fiscal responsibility is on full display today and should serve as an excellent example for those greedy corporate types...obama is demanding $100 million in total cuts from all of his agencies...that amounts to"
Bookworm, I also thought "Why bother?"
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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"jstan, they've been giving us the finger since they took our people hostage in 1979...remember that little act of war? "
Yeah I mean what did we ever do to them? It's not like they democratically elected a leader and then we had the CIA overthrow (kill) him and then prop up a fairly brutal dictator in his place oh wait....
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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"Yeah I mean what did we ever do to them? It's not like they democratically elected a leader and then we had the CIA overthrow (kill) him and then prop up a fairly brutal dictator in his place oh wait.... "
Funny how we imposed an emabargo against one dictatorship, Cuba, but never against the Shah's Iran.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Worm:
A little history you might find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
“The 1953 Iranian Coup d’état was the Western covert operation that deposed the democratically-elected Government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq; [1][2][3] the CIA and MI6 effected it by aiding and abetting pro-West Iranians and mutinous Iranian army officers.”……..
End of Excerpt
To begin, in Life there is no guarantee against anything, and especially no guarantee against war. Life involves, if you are lucky, only choices between various alternatives, generally none of them desirable. Making a choice is a process in which you look at all options. All options. Now when a country refuses to talk with an “adversary” you can conclude only they have found an acceptable course of action and they are proceeding with it. In the event that this presumed course of action never materializes you are left only with a question of competence.
When you set a precondition of substance you tell the adversary they have no power to affect their future. When you do this you better have your ducks in a row.
I have seen reports in the media estimating the delay that we could impose by trying to destroy Iran’s purification facility from the air. Something like three years. Perhaps a third of the eight years we have just wasted. So it is I conclude we are talking invasion and long term occupation of Iran, under opposition from Russia and possibly even China. Are you personally prepared to join up? That’s what it comes down to, I think.
Now the truth of it is Iran’s oil resources are now sufficiently depleted that their long term future is more questionable than is our own. That’s the key. Discussions with Iran and others may allow everyone to feel their long term future is receiving some consideration. Once that is happening really hard questions may soften, just a little bit. The Iranian situation has been building for fifty years.
A quick easy air strike has never been in the cards.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 20, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Oh wormy...I feel your pain
It was my pain in watching the Bush administration screw up the nation and it's values for 8 long years. I typed and typed on Supertopo. I was concerned about our future.
Maybe you were much happier with the way things were going then..."oh to return to the halcyon days of Bush Administration fiscal responsibility and the positive results of their tough stances!"
It's going to be a long 4 to 8 years for you. You'll feel vindicated too cause the economy is destined for hell no matter what Obama does and our diminished power will change the clout that we've lorded over the world.
Probably best to get some "preemptive" blood pressure medicine cause if you listen to conservative media, the coming years are going to be a long ordeal of frying in your own fat with little you can do about it.
Me, I'm happy to be on the sinking ship with you, and that our captain is the least of the evils the status quo had to offer us that we the sheep could have elected.
Peace
Karl
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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"the least of the evils"
a bow to the saudi king, the tyrant who oppresses women, homosexuals, and christians (wait, you probably like that last one)
a handshake and gratitude to hugo chavez, the tyrant who destroyed a democratic state with a vibrant economy
promises of understanding and cooperation with the president of iran, a vile anti-semitic who continues to call for the destruction of one of our staunchest allies and who provides financial support to terrorist organizations (hamas and hezbollah) and whose thugs have helped to kill american troops in iraq
calls for disarmament the same day noko (the tyrannical regime that starves its own people) tests a long-range ballistic missile in open violation of un resolutions
disparagement of the monroe doctrine, which was specifically set up to protect fledgling democracies in latin america from european imperialists (which either shows barry's true feelings on democracy or his utter ignorance concerning american history)
official orders to stop using the term "terrorist" when talking about people who strap bombs to themselves and blow up women and children but officially using the word "terrorist" when referring to pro-life supporters, opponents of ILLEGAL immigration, and VETS (who willingly risked their lives to protect america)
i could go on, but i think this illustrates the irony in your use of the word "lesser"
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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To quote Jon Stewart: "Pace your rage. It's only been 10 weeks."
Bookworm: Wow it's a snarky column written by some guy I don't know about who is pretending to be victimized by Obama (and everyone else apparently) for being a conservative. For the "party of responsibility" there are two things that Republicans seem to be really excellent at: playing the victim and blaming other people. Thanks for linking this. It's a good reminder of why things aren't going so well for the RNC.
*edit* Also, nice laundry list of dramatic but utterly meaningless things. Do you really think that agreeing to reduce our absurd number of nuclear weapons puts us at greater risk from North Korea? I mean really?
Also, you also clearly haven't "gotten" what Obama is about in terms of diplomacy. The Bush Years of shitting on anyone who disagreed with us didn't work. We tried it. Really hard. I mean there is poop EVERYWHERE from all the shitting we did. The American people saw it was time to try acting like adults, so Obama is doing exactly that. Treating other people with respect, and then firmly asserting American power. Why don't you wait for a couple years and see if it works before you twist your panties so firmly as if you know exactly how this should all go. Better yet, why not run for President?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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I just read that Obama wiped his ass this morning with seven sheets of toilet paper.
Now everyone, wait about an hour. Give Red State.com and Fox News and Glen Beck and the RNC enough time to formulate their oppositions to this latest Obama wrongdoing. Ok, everyone on page?
He SHOULD have used SIX sheets, he is "extravagent", the big government paid for it, so he is a SOCIALIST.
He is skinny, so he has "bony fingers". He has a HIDDEN agenda.
Hey, don't forget, call him "barry" because that was his nickname in high school. That should be a nice quiet way of mocking him.
YES, I f*#king hate dumb ass, ignorant, simple minded Republicans. They got NOTHING, but ignorant irrational HATE.
Hate for everything Obama does, looks like, acts.
Nothing matters, he cannot do ANY f*#king thing right in their SIMPLE MINDED, HATEUL, DUMB ASS, conservative no minds.
Later, I will tell you how I really feel, no holding back.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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Speaking as a classic Republican and a believer in the two party system there is both promise and danger in the current state of politics.
For so long as those laying claim to being Republican also speak palpably from rage and disappointment while advancing reactive positions that, I have to say I feel, evidence tortured logic, we delay our return to a two party system. That's a negative.
To the degree that the loss of a two party system encourages citizens, each, to think through our options and to take personal responsibility for their decisions, we have a very substantial positive.
If there is a function to threads such as this, it may be that of giving us practice in regaining our command of the process by which we make choices.
We should not expect it to be either quick - or easy.
How might it all play out? Based upon current events conservatives have eventually to come to believe following the "party line" does not contribute to their chances of taking a constructive role in our public life. This will free them to speak to their principles, the part of the Republican Party that has always been its greatest strength.
When that comes to pass people who believe in the two party system and want to see it restored will find themselves supporting both parties. It is at that point, I for one, feel we will see informal citizen discussions such as this, take a quantum leap in their effectiveness.
That time has not yet arrived.
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just passing thru
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 20, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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Norton, how many republicans do you personally know?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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If the economy improves at all, or if Newt or Sarah runs, or if the Republicans continue to ignore the center, Obama will be re-elected, and I will laugh and laugh.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 20, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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jstan-
Great post and I'd really love an honest discussion with Republicans who are speaking from their core values instead of playing these silly political contrivance games we always do. Everyone forgets that finding meaningful solutions through understanding and compromise is the important thing, not reppin your party like it's a street gang.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Just passing, interesting question.
I own and operate two retail stores in Santa Fe. As a result, I know a lot of fellow small business owners in this city, I'd say the number who identify themselves as Republicans at Chamber of Commerce meetings is very high,guessing about 70% or something.
I have coffee with them as a group of around 20, so I get a good earful of their opinions on all things business related and their political thoughts, who they vote for, why, what they like and dislike.
So to answer, I am exposed to a significant number of folks who identify themselves as Republicans, on a regular basis.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 06:16pm PT
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Thanks HDDJ.
OK I am going to pull over my shoulders the cape of “True Republicanism.” No more crap. Let’s take a little problem.
Social Security
I paid into the system at the maximum for a little more than twenty years. When the system was originally sold it was sold not as a tax but a system that would return value to its contributors. This was a contract and nobody can unilaterally modify an existing contract. That’s as Republican as one can get. And it is based upon honoring one’s word.
So if we are looking at a change to that contract, it has to come from agreements between both parties.
When I retired I calculated the present value of my SS Benefits in constant dollars. I calculated I would receive a known percentage of what I had paid in at the current rates. One way to achieve a consensus is for the government to run its computers, do the same for everyone based on a reasonable discount rate and inflation values, and determine what the new return rate should be if the system is to continue serving us. Then they have to come to us, the other party in the contract, and ask for approval.
If I vote against the proposal I am accepting future generations will face great pain and uncertainty as a result of my vote when the system eventually becomes insolvent.
The citizens get to decide.
After all of this pain citizens will realize they absolutely must turn out of Congress all of those members willing to graft liabilities onto an existing contract without also providing the funding. Indeed, such prohibitions need to be specifically included in the enabling legislation.
Furthermore that enabling legislation needs to total less than 2000 pages so that its content is not thereby concealed. I would recommend a limit of fifty pages as formatted for the Federal Register.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:27am PT
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I thought that it was only the Republicans who wear wool, sir Bookworm...perhaps you are confused.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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naaa, just all those libs who think barry and the congressional dems really care about education
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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Apr 21, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Good god people! Can't we all just get along?
Seriously, Bush f*#ked us, Obama's f*#kin' us, what's new.
Screw this, I'm goin' bouldering.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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brilliant...on the exact same day that barry demands fiscal responsibility from his cabinet by finding a TOTAL of $100 million dollars in budget cuts (or a whopping .0029% of the federal budget), he announces a new $100 BILLION commitment to the imf
so, he'll spend $100 million less on america but $100 BILLION more on other countries
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jstan
climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 12:31pm PT
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I supported Obama because I thought we were still a people able to sustain a representative democracy. It appears I was wrong and I did him a great evil.
I wish you all well.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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"the least of the evils"
Worm-a bow to the saudi king, the tyrant who oppresses women, homosexuals, and christians (wait, you probably like that last one)
Baba-Bush kissed him the damn lips! Prince Bandar's nickname is Bandar Bush they were so close. I call Obama's alleged protocol move lesser
Worm-a handshake and gratitude to hugo chavez, the tyrant who destroyed a democratic state with a vibrant economy
Baba- Prove destroyed! They are still a democracy BTW and Chavez lost an election designed to change their rules. Place is not doing as badly as many places.
Worm- promises of understanding and cooperation with the president of iran, a vile anti-semitic who continues to call for the destruction of one of our staunchest allies and who provides financial support to terrorist organizations (hamas and hezbollah) and whose thugs have helped to kill american troops in iraq
Baba-The call for destruction has been proved false translation many times. What's worse, talking to these guys or invading them for billions of dollars or thousands of lives lost like Bush did in Iraq. I call that lesser evil too.
Worm-calls for disarmament the same day noko (the tyrannical regime that starves its own people) tests a long-range ballistic missile in open violation of un resolutions
Baba_ Yeah, they say they were trying to launch a satellite. Who has North Korea invaded lately? Who did they attack? We have thousands of nukes, launch missles all the time, and fire weapons at real and imagined foes every day. Don't you think a little less hypocrisy would serve us better in the world? Do you know that we have obligations to move toward disarmament in the NPT?
Worm-disparagement of the monroe doctrine, which was specifically set up to protect fledgling democracies in latin america from european imperialists (which either shows barry's true feelings on democracy or his utter ignorance concerning american history)
Baba-Study the history of us defeating democracy in Latin America for the benefit of our corporate interests. Your post above is pure fantasy. Start with "Confessions of an economic hitman" We have a disgraceful (unknown in this country) past there and THEY ALL KNOW IT DOWN THERE.
Worm-official orders to stop using the term "terrorist" when talking about people who strap bombs to themselves and blow up women and children but officially using the word "terrorist" when referring to pro-life supporters, opponents of ILLEGAL immigration, and VETS (who willingly risked their lives to protect america)
Baba- Right wing talking points that are either lies, exaggerations but certainly don't cost anybody their jobs, lives, or freedom. Nothing compared to Bushes lesser crimes not to speak of his real crimes.
i could go on, but i think this illustrates the irony in your use of the word "lesser"
Dude, I'm not going to waste more time posting with you because you are the incarnation of Lois in objective consideration of things. It makes me look and feel bad to engage in this manner. You've got 8 years to enjoy Obama rule...Enjoy.
Still, I'll be right with intelligent conservative and liberal thinkers in opposing Obama policies that get dictated by the power of the system of political economics that has strangled our system. I've very skeptical, for instance, on Obama's stepping up on Afghanistan. So many countries have failed in that. He's a smart guys so hopefully he has a unique plan but fear what happened to Johnson in Viet Nam
Peace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 21, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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bookworm- You need to lay off the Little Green Footballs or whatever it is cause it's hurting your brain. Calling Juan Williams a "dyed in the wool liberal" is just ridiculous. You have no idea what you're talking about.
jstan-
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here. It sounds like you're looking for more transparency in the social security system? Please realize that you can't take on an issue like Social Security without looking at the way it's been treated by politicians for the last few decades. It has been repeatedly raided by Congress to shore up budgets without raising taxes (thus Al Gore's much ridiculed "lockbox") and everyone skews the numbers for their partisan gain. The reality is that it most certainly IS a social contract. Running numbers based on what is there now would be like demanding that you see my bank account because I will owe you rent at the end of the month. My account is empty, but it's only the 16th. I have a lot of time to get my rent money.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 21, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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oops, it looks like i was wrong about obama...or obama was wrong about obama...today, suddenly, he's decided prosecuting those responsible for torture might be a good option after all...hmmm, i wonder what changed his mind...couldn't possibly be "political factors" could it?
read the blog and see the potential cluster that awaits:
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/21/obama-flip-flops-on-potential-torture-prosecutions/
oh yeah, also sorry for calling john kerry the biggest flip-flopper in the world
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apogee
climber
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Apr 21, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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"Dude (bookworm), I'm not going to waste more time posting with you because you are the incarnation of Lois in objective consideration of things."
Karl nails it. bookworm, get your meds refilled, will ya?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 21, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
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booky if you believe the BS you post here you must be tearing your hair out.
I suggest turning off the right wing news/radio/websites before you lose it and do more climbing instead.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 21, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
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White on white crime?
Fox news just said this was Obama's fault, and would make us less safe.
Red State.com confirmed this view immediately.
Michael Savage and Rush added their well considered statements of fact that the Obama daughters' upcoming sleepover was poorly planned,
and would only make us less safe.
In other news, Fattrad still wants to be POTUS, and Bookworm is holding a press conference to announce he is switching political parties and will immediately register as a Democrat.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 23, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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i know this is long, but it's worth reading...from today's wsj:
"Barack Obama's critics have long worried that his placatory attitude would project American weakness, thereby emboldening enemies and making real that impression of weakness. That may happen (or be happening), but what seems to have happened first is that President Obama's own weakness has emboldened his domestic allies on the Angry Left. As a result, the administration seems to be on the verge of a political crisis, and the country is at risk of a constitutional crisis.
Until this week, the White House had been clear in rejecting calls from left-wing Democrats to prosecute former Bush administration officials for their involvement in what the far left calls "torture" of terrorists. But on Tuesday the president effectively voted "present," as MSNBC.com reports:
"For those who carried out some of these operations within the four corners of legal opinions or guidance that had been provided from the White House, I do not think it's appropriate for them to be prosecuted," he told reporters.But then Obama added that prosecutions for those who drafted the memos would be up to Attorney General Eric Holder. "With respect to those who formulated those legal decisions, I would say that that is going to be more of a decision for the Attorney General within the parameters of various laws, and I don't want to prejudge that. I think that there are a host of very complicated issues involved there."This noncommittal response emboldened the Angry Left and has everyone else worried. Merely contemplating such a step poses dangers to the administration. Going through with it would pose a myriad of dangers for the country.
The most immediate danger is a political one, described aptly by Commentary's Jennifer Rubin:
His own party, not to mention the Republicans and the public, must now fight it out: criminalize the prior administration or not? Spend weeks or months with a parade of witnesses pointing fingers at superiors, subordinates, and even congressional leaders who knew and approved of the policies at issue?And now the administration is frustrated, we are told, that everyone is so distracted and not paying attention to the economy and the president's domestic agenda.This is one "distraction" that Obama cannot blame on his political opponents. Of course, depending on what you think of Obama's domestic agenda, a distraction from it may not be altogether a bad thing. But surely a weakened presidency at a time of war and economic crisis is the worst way imaginable to save us from socialized medicine and higher taxes.
Then there is the question of America's vulnerability to a terrorist attack. We tend to think that Obama's changes in policy, including the repudiation of enhanced interrogation, increase the likelihood of an attack. Even if you disagree, consider the case the Washington Post's David Ignatius makes about the effects of threatening prosecutions:
Obama promised CIA officers that they won't be prosecuted for carrying out lawful orders, but the people on the firing line don't believe him. They think the memos have opened a new season of investigation and retribution.The lesson for younger officers is obvious: Keep your head down. Duck the assignments that carry political risk. Stay away from a counterterrorism program that has become a career hazard.Up to this point, Obama's actual changes in policy have been less drastic than the drama with which he has announced them--think of his promising to close Guantanamo after a year rather than doing so immediately. The threat of prosecution adds a new element of drama, which the reality of prosecution would heighten enormously. The drama itself will affect public perception if there is, heaven forbid, another terrorist attack. The more dramatically Obama is seen as having remade antiterror policy, the more inclined the public would be to interpret an attack as having resulted from his new policies--whether this perception is accurate or not.
Obama's willingness to take such a political risk may be foolish, or it may be to his credit. But his policies would be at risk as well. If abandoning "torture" is seen as having led to the deaths of American civilians on American soil, public opinion may well swing in the opposite direction. It's quite possible that the public would demand policies harsher not only than Obama's but than Bush's. This is a disturbing prospect to anyone who cares about civil liberties, this columnist included.
Further, as David Frum notes, the criminalization of policy differences can go both ways:
Obama is musing about extending the political reach of the criminal law. If he does so, he will find he has opened a new front of political warfare that will not soon end.After the 9/11 attacks, President Bush drew a curtain of oblivion against all the errors and mistakes that had led up to the attacks. There was accusation and counter-accusation in the media, but at the official level there was no recrimination against President Clinton's decision not to kill bin Laden when he had the chance, no action against those who had failed to stop the 9/11 hijackers from entering the country.If Obama proceeds to take legal action against those who did what they thought was right to defend the country, all that will change. Prosecutions launched by Obama will not stop when Obama declares "game over." If overzealousness under Bush becomes a crime under Obama, underzealousness under Obama will become a crime under the next Republican president.If officials pay for policy mistakes not only by losing elections but by losing their freedom, that would amount to a fundamental change in America's form of government. As The Wall Street Journal notes in an editorial:
At least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.What Obama is offhandedly contemplating, then, amounts to a step toward authoritarian government. The impulse behind the push to prosecute is an authoritarian one as well. Matthew Yglesias of the left-liberal Center for American Progress writes that "large-scale punishment for the perpetrators of Bush-era war crimes is less important than establishing some form of political consensus that torture is wrong for the future."
Yglesias blames this lack of "consensus" on "the existence of a large and powerful conservative media apparatus," including the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal (which publishes this column), and he quotes approvingly from a blogger called Neil Sinhababu:
I don't think that we're going to be able to establish any such consensus anytime soon. It used to be that we were worried about Fox News defeating us in elections, or beating the drums for another Bush Administration war. Winning by big margins is nice, because we don't have to worry about those particular horrors for at least a little while. But now we have to worry about how Fox and the rest of the right-wing noise machine are going to continually sustain a substantial minority of crazy people, preventing the formation of an anti-torture consensus, an anti-war-of-aggression consensus, and anti-warrantless-spying consensus. Even if there's majority support for these views, anybody scrapping for power within the Republican Party will find reason to oppose them, just to get a majority of Republicans.I think the impossibility of consensus on these issues is part of why nobody thinks about consensus and there's so much left-wing attention to judicial punishments for the perpetrators.What troubles Yglesias and Sinhababu, then, is the existence of disagreement and debate--the essence of democracy. They seem to imply that prosecution is a method by which to force the consensus they would like to see. But a forced consensus is no consensus at all. If those now in power yield to the temptation to use authoritarian means--however well-intentioned their ends may be--they will set a precedent that their opponents, perhaps equally well-intentioned, may one day use against them.
To be sure, most of what we have written is speculative. Perhaps we will make it through the Obama years without being attacked, so that the dire consequences we imagine will never materialize. Perhaps, too, the current frenzy will blow over and will prove to have been only a distraction. But the president's noncommittal words have fueled the Angry Left's demands for recriminations.
It may be that the president can put out this fire only through bold and irreversible action--to wit, by issuing a blanket pardon of former officials and intelligence agents for their actions in the war on terror."
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 09:39am PT
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i guess one's popularity rating depends on the company one keeps:
"WATCHING ALL THIS, I was wondering what the new standards were. How oppressive must a leader be before we determine that he has not merited a hug by the democratic standard-bearer of the free world, the president of the United States? Yes, I get it. We have to speak to our enemies, and America has to push "reset" on its relationship with many of these countries. We should try and change them through charm. But who said the president himself, rather than a lower-level diplomat, must do so?
And if Obama feels that he has to be the one to greet a man like Chavez, must it be with the kind of ear-to-ear grin that one might show girl scouts selling cookies? It must surely be disheartening for those who suffer oppression in countries like Venezuela, Cuba and Saudi Arabia to see the American president backslapping their oppressors when these victims have always looked up to the United States as their champions."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239710740265&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 09:53am PT
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bob, i've already expressed my disappointment in how bush treated the saudi king
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 24, 2009 - 09:55am PT
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Bookwoom...what about his many meetings with Hu Jintao?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 10:50am PT
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i won't criticize obama for "meeting" with china or russia...i will criticize him for kissing the asses of two-bit despots who repeatedly threaten or condemn america...and i'll criticize him for treating these two-bit despots with more respect than he does our most stalwart allies (great britain, israel, etc.)
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 24, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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i know you libs care deeply about what "the world" thinks of us; well, here's the uk:
"That is why he opened Pandora’s Box by publishing the Justice Department’s legal opinions on waterboarding and other hardline interrogation techniques. He cynically subordinated the national interest to his partisan desire to embarrass the Republicans. Then he had to rush to Langley, Virginia to try to reassure a demoralised CIA that had just discovered the President of the United States was an even more formidable foe than al-Qaeda…
Obama promised his CIA audience that nobody would be prosecuted for past actions. That has already been contradicted by leftist groups with a revanchist ambition to put Republicans, headed if possible by Condoleezza Rice, in the dock. Talk about playing party politics with national security. Martin Scheinin, the United Nations special investigator for human rights, claims that senior figures, including former vice president Dick Cheney, could face prosecution overseas. Ponder that - once you have got over the difficulty of locating the United Nations and human rights within the same dimension.
President Pantywaist Obama should have thought twice before sitting down to play poker with Dick Cheney."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/gerald_warner/blog/2009/04/24/barack_obama_and_the_cia_why_does_president_pantywaist_hate_america_so_badly
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 24, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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"i won't criticize obama for "meeting" with china or russia...i will criticize him for kissing the asses of two-bit despots who repeatedly threaten or condemn america...and i'll criticize him for treating these two-bit despots with more respect than he does our most stalwart allies (great britain, israel, etc.) "
Ugh dude seriously. You wonder why people don't respect your opinions. More respect than Britain or Israel? Cause he shook Chavez's hand and smiled?
And weren't you the guy posting the cartoon all worried about "world opinion" in the other thread? Or was that Bizzaro-Bookworm?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 26, 2009 - 10:27am PT
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yes, high, obama's treatment of gordon brown on his first visit to the us and the statement from an obama state department official that the uk is no more important that any of the other 190 nations is far less respectful than listening to a two-bit latin american despot disparage the us for nearly an hour only to thank said despot for not blaming obama personally for the bay of pigs...and it's less respectful than obama's multiple pics of him shaking hands and, apparently, joking around, and accepting as a "nice gesture" a book that blames america for all of latin america's problems from another two-bit despot
i don't care what "the world" thinks of america because i know the vast majority of people who care one way or another want to live in america because of the freedom and opportunity...and most of them actually want to BE americans
had three german au pairs in a toproping class yesterday...none of them have the slightest desire to return to germany, as they themselves said (in their rather cute german accents), "america has far more opportunity than any place in europe...we can go to school here and study what we want and we can work toward a career...and americans are so much nicer...everybody in germany wants to come to america"
but you go right on believing what hugo and raul/fidel and danny say...and, of course, sean penn and janeane garofolo and danny glover and madonna, etc.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 26, 2009 - 10:34am PT
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Everybody in Germany wants to come to America? What the ?? Thats a little bit of a far fetched statement. Maybe on vacation......?
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Apr 26, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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The sad part of this thread and everyones views is that none of them matter. You are all slaves and whores to the united states gov no matter who you support. Do you know why you have a SS#? A marriage license? You are the property of the government, and so are your children.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 26, 2009 - 11:35am PT
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obama claims to be a "constitutional scholar"...good choice for somebody who wants to take away civil rights:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5214985/Barack-Obama-administration-seeks-to-change-police-questioning-law.html
of course, the worst part of this is how it would destroy so much suspense in tv crime shows...
crime shows now:
detective: "ok, scumbag, your alibi doesn't hold up. tell us where you really were."
scumbag: "i want a lawyer"
crime shows after obama's interference:
detective: "ok, scumbag, your alibi doesn't hold up. tell us where you really were."
scumbag: "i confess"
director: "wait, we still have 37 minutes of airtime to fill"
producer: "we'll just throw in few more viagra ads"
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 26, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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how right you are Dean. It was total blind stupidity following Bush that got us into all this mess.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 26, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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"I don't know that the Bush supporters have this sort of emotionality which I am referencing. I don't even know that the vast majority were blindly following Bush. I know I was not. I viewed him as the lesser of two evils replete with a whole host of flaws concerning which I would be the first person to tell you about. "
You're right they weren't emotional at all. We just went through 8 years of calm, rational thinking not in any way influenced or motivated by fear.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 27, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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yawn
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 27, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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"They emotionally and blindly defend the person (be it the guru or, in this case, Obama) beyond all measure of reality. I have noticed that tenor on this forum for some time now and I suspect it is ubiquitous among the Obama supporters."
No, you are just believing the right wing media BS spin because they repeat it over an over. But it's a good line and easy to fall for.
I didn't vote for Obama, I thought McCain was a pretty good choice too (until he brought on Palin). But I have been very impressed with the majority of Obama actions so far. He seems to be governing from the center, with intelligence, and pragmaticism. When I hear the liberals and the conservatives are pissed at Obama, I think "great he's probably doing the right thing".
The biggest thing I'm worried about is the added national debt. But if Obama can half the deficit by the end of his first term, his ideas will have proved reasonable and he will get re-elected.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 27, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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i think this statement clearly sums up obama's understanding of economics:
"And yet, in a paradox of American life, at the very moment it's never been more important to have a quality higher education, the cost of that kind of education has never been higher"
obama doesn't understand why something that "has never been more important" would also be more expensive...maybe that's why he took money away from poor kids who were using it to attend the same school his own kids attend
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 28, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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will anybody get fired for this idiotic stunt?
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/28/postscript-what-should-obamas-next-photo-op-be/
watch that plane slowly circle the ny skyline and listen as somebody in the background screams "oh my god!" and picture in your mind again the horror of that day 7 years ago...now think, if you could go back and stop 9/11 simply by pouring water into some guy's nose, would you do it?
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apogee
climber
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Apr 28, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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HW Dean-
There is always a degree of 'irrational exuberance' for any political figure on either side of the aisle, especially when times are difficult, and the current leadership has deteriorated in the eyes of the populace. On the left, during the campaign, Obama has inspired the same level of excitement that Reagan did (and still does) on the right. As you said, the truth about a given candidate is usually somewhere in between.
Your comments go on to characterize Obama supporters as 'cultist' and sinister- I assure you, I and many others feel the same way about Reagan (or Bush, but that's easy to understand). The only reason you see Obama's following as suspicious is because you are on the other side of the political fence. For you (or any other GOP-ster) to characterize this as suspicious belies your own tendency to do the same thing when the leadership is in your party, and places you in a very glass house casting stones. Most importantly, it is silly and very moot.
Instead, how about focussing on the issues and how they are being addressed (or not)?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 28, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
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President Barack Obama has an approval rating of 68 percent, a higher figure than his predecessor had at his 100-day mark in office.
The nationwide poll of almost 1,000 adults from April 22-26 shows widespread support for how Obama has addressed issues, including whether Congress should investigate interrogation methods authorized by former President George W. Bush.
Bush had an approval rating of 56 percent at this point in his first term in a similar survey.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 28, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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what happens if you throw a nationalized health care party and no doctors show up?
no worries, obama has the answer:
"To cope with the growing shortage, federal officials are considering several proposals. One would increase enrollment in medical schools and residency training programs. Another would encourage greater use of nurse practitioners and physician assistants. A third would expand the National Health Service Corps, which deploys doctors and nurses in rural areas and poor neighborhoods"
not enough doctors? no problem, we'll make more (sounds like his answer to the debt problem, huh)...what's the best way to increase the number of doctors? lower standards for admission to medical school...or allow non-doctors to perform tasks previously permitted only for doctors...but don't worry, these extra doctors will only be treating the poor because who cares about them anyway
can you say soviet health system, boys and girls? read solzhenitsen's "cancer ward" if you don't understand
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 28, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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bookworm: using SuperTopo for a LIttle Green Footballs mirror site since 2006
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 28, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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actually my source is the right-wing crap site known as the ny times
but why address the proposals put forth by obama when it's so much easier to lob personal attacks
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 28, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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bookworm you have got to be kidding me. I can't count the times I've made substantive comments or rebuttals to your frenzied link posting and skewed spin on it only to be ignored by you in favor of 3 or 4 more link posts like you see above. Do you really think it's worth the effort at this point?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 28, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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DJ wrote...bookworm you have got to be kidding me. I can't count the times I've made substantive comments or rebuttals to your frenzied link posting and skewed spin on it only to be ignored by you in favor of 3 or 4 more link posts like you see above. Do you really think it's worth the effort at this point?
No it not...the whack job just doesn't get. Only 20 percent of people polled said they were republicans. I think the number will go down.
The party is dying.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 29, 2009 - 06:11am PT
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obama is reluctant to even threaten sanctions against iran, noko, etc., but has no problem threatening the nypd, fbi, and cia
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/air.force.one.2.996457.html
of course, now it's a "training mission" because, well, pilots of air force one can never be sure when they might have to buzz a national monument
by the way, why didn't obama's press secretary know obama was "furious" about the incident? does obama talk to anybody in his administration?
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 29, 2009 - 09:11am PT
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Do you masturbate to this stuff?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 29, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 29, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Gotta love newspapers published by Cult leaders.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 29, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
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jpt, this is the title of the Gallup article you just posted:
At 100 Days, Obama Approval Broad as Well as Deep
Solid majorities of everyone but Republicans and conservatives approve
PRINCETON, NJ -- As President Barack Obama concludes his first 100 days on the job, Gallup Poll Daily tracking for the week of April 20-26 finds 65% of Americans approving of how he is doing and only 29% disapproving. Obama's average weekly job ratings have varied only slightly thus far, ranging from 61% to 67%.
That's a hell of a lot different than the WaTimes article you posted, which is supposedly based on the Gallup article.
Am I missing something here? 'Cause to my eye, the only significant disapproval rating is amongst Repubs (which, by the way, only 1 in 5 Americans currently call themselves). Other than that, his approval rating is 'broad & deep' at 65%- sounds pretty damn good to me...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 30, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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This is pretty interesting. Pathological narcicist?
http://www.globalpolitician.com/25109-barack-obama-elections
from the end of the link:
Thus, a narcissist who regards himself as the benefactor of the poor, a member of the common folk, the representative of the disenfranchised, the champion of the dispossessed against the corrupt elite - is highly unlikely to use violence at first.
The pacific mask crumbles when the narcissist has become convinced that the very people he purported to speak for, his constituency, his grassroots fans, the prime sources of his narcissistic supply - have turned against him. At first, in a desperate effort to maintain the fiction underlying his chaotic personality, the narcissist strives to explain away the sudden reversal of sentiment. "The people are being duped by (the media, big industry, the military, the elite, etc.)", "they don't really know what they are doing", "following a rude awakening, they will revert to form", etc.
When these flimsy attempts to patch a tattered personal mythology fail - the narcissist is injured. Narcissistic injury inevitably leads to narcissistic rage and to a terrifying display of unbridled aggression. The pent-up frustration and hurt translate into devaluation. That which was previously idealized - is now discarded with contempt and hatred.
This primitive defense mechanism is called "splitting". To the narcissist, things and people are either entirely bad (evil) or entirely good. He projects onto others his own shortcomings and negative emotions, thus becoming a totally good object. A narcissistic leader is likely to justify the butchering of his own people by claiming that they intended to kill him, undo the revolution, devastate the economy, or the country, etc.
The "small people", the "rank and file", the "loyal soldiers" of the narcissist - his flock, his nation, his employees - they pay the price. The disillusionment and disenchantment are agonizing. The process of reconstruction, of rising from the ashes, of overcoming the trauma of having been deceived, exploited and manipulated - is drawn-out. It is difficult to trust again, to have faith, to love, to be led, to collaborate. Feelings of shame and guilt engulf the erstwhile followers of the narcissist. This is his sole legacy: a massive post-traumatic stress disorder.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Apr 30, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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From TGT's picture: "America just sucks."
That is the attitude of the GOP.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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What are you guys talking about, Crocs and Dark Socks are the new painters pants!
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jstan
climber
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I subscribe to the LA Times even though they have columnists like Jonah Goldburg. I have to support a paper even when it contains articles written for the bling. To get bling the headline is written first and then the article follows. When I saw the headline this morning I knew what was coming.
The last few years have trained us well to take nothing at face value. This has always been an essential skill so in that respect the last few years have produced one benefit at least. Healthy Forests will never be topped.
One suggestion to the folks on the right. Each of you need to vary your scripts slightly, maybe just use your own words and don't so evidently close in as a pack for the kill no matter how slight the transgression. Treating Michelle's choice of dresses just as passionately as you invaded Iraq is very telling.
You have not offered us anything. Once you have grasped this awful fact your contributions can become of more value.
We very much need responsible contributions and dialog from the right.
This is not it.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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from real clear politics:
"Other Western intelligence services regard the Obama administration with contempt and rising concern, an officer of the DGSE, France's military intelligence agency, told my friend Jack Wheeler (the real life Indiana
Jones) last week.
"All of us in our little community are worried -- us, our friends in Berlin, London, Tel Aviv," the DGSE officer told Jack. "It is not like the barbarians at the gates. It is every barbarian horde in the world being told there are no gates."
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apogee
climber
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"We very much need responsible contributions and dialog from the right.
This is not it."
Werd.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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during the campaign, mccain called for eliminating ALL earmarks from the budget, and obama mocked the idea because "earmarks account for only 18 million dollars"
well, the smartest man to ever run for president announced his own budget cuts, which amount to 0.5% of the total budget, or...
17 million dollars!!!
of course, several dems (that's members of obama's party) are already balking at his proposals
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doktor_g
Social climber
Mt Shasta, CA
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The thing that I like about rock climbing is being up and away in a beautiful setting. The wind. The sun. The animals. The wild. The most important are the friends and the isolation from the rest of the craziness, even if it is just for a short time. That's one of the reasons I really like this web-site, 'cause that's what we talk about.
Let me help:
North facing big walls... Better to climb in the summer or winter?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"North facing big walls... Better to climb in the summer or winter?" Northern hemisphere, or southern?
It will be interesting to see Obama's reaction to his first real foreign/military crisis, something that arises unexpectedly. I suspect that he'll rise to the occasion.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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from today's wall street journal:
"Obama and the 9/11 Families
The president isn't sincere about 'swift and certain' justice for terrorists.
Article
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Text
By DEBRA BURLINGAME
In February I was among a group of USS Cole and 9/11 victims' families who met with the president at the White House to discuss his policies regarding Guantanamo detainees. Although many of us strongly opposed Barack Obama's decision to close the detention center and suspend all military commissions, the families of the 17 sailors killed in the 2000 attack in Yemen were particularly outraged.
Getty Images
Barack Obama addresses CIA employees, April 20.
Over the years, the Cole families have seen justice abandoned by the Clinton administration and overshadowed by the need of the Bush administration to gather intelligence after 9/11. They have watched in frustration as the president of Yemen refused extradition for the Cole bombers.
Now, after more than eight years of waiting, Mr. Obama was stopping the trial of Abu Rahim al-Nashiri, the only individual to be held accountable for the bombing in a U.S. court. Patience finally gave out. The families were giving angry interviews, slamming the new president just days after he was sworn in.
The Obama team quickly put together a meeting at the White House to get the situation under control. Individuals representing "a diversity of views" were invited to attend and express their concerns.
On Feb. 6, the president arrived in the Roosevelt Room to a standing though subdued ovation from some 40 family members. With a White House photographer in his wake, Mr. Obama greeted family members one at a time and offered brief remarks that were full of platitudes ("you are the conscience of the country," "my highest duty as president is to protect the American people," "we will seek swift and certain justice"). Glossing over the legal complexities, he gave a vague summary of the detainee cases and why he chose to suspend them, focusing mostly on the need for speed and finality.
Many family members pressed for Guantanamo to remain open and for the military commissions to go forward. Mr. Obama allowed that the detention center had been unfairly confused with Abu Ghraib, but when asked why he wouldn't rehabilitate its image rather than shut it down, he silently shrugged. Next question.
Mr. Obama was urged to consult with prosecutors who have actually tried terrorism cases and warned that bringing unlawful combatants into the federal courts would mean giving our enemies classified intelligence -- as occurred in the cases of the al Qaeda cell that carried out the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and conspired to bomb New York City landmarks with ringleader Omar Abdel Rahman, the "Blind Sheikh." In the Rahman case, a list of 200 unindicted co-conspirators given to the defense -- they were entitled to information material to their defense -- was in Osama bin Laden's hands within hours. It told al Qaeda who among them was known to us, and who wasn't.
Mr. Obama responded flatly, "I'm the one who sees that intelligence. I don't want them to have it, either. We don't have to give it to them."
How could anyone be unhappy with such an answer? Or so churlish as to ask follow-up questions in such a forum? I and others were reassured, if cautiously so.
News reports described the meeting as a touching and powerful coming together of the president and these long-suffering families. Mr. Obama had won over even those who opposed his decision to close Gitmo by assuaging their fears that the review of some 245 current detainees would result in dangerous jihadists being set free. "I did not vote for the man, but the way he talks to you, you can't help but believe in him," said John Clodfelter to the New York Times. His son, Kenneth, was killed in the Cole bombing. "[Mr. Obama] left me with a very positive feeling that he's going to get this done right."
"This isn't goodbye," said the president, signing autographs and posing for pictures before leaving for his next appointment, "this is hello." His national security staff would have an open-door policy.
Believe . . . feel . . . hope.
We'd been had.
Binyam Mohamed -- the al Qaeda operative selected by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) for a catastrophic post-9/11 attack with co-conspirator Jose Padilla -- was released 17 days later. In a follow-up conference call, the White House liaison to 9/11 and Cole families refused to answer questions about the circumstances surrounding the decision to repatriate Mohamed, including whether he would be freed in Great Britain.
The phrase "swift and certain justice" had been used by top presidential adviser David Axelrod in an interview prior to our meeting with the president. "Swift and certain justice" figured prominently in the White House press release issued before we had time to surrender our White House security passes. "At best, he manipulated the families," Kirk Lippold, commanding officer of the USS Cole at the time of the attack and the leader of the Cole families group, told me recently. "At worst, he misrepresented his true intentions."
Last week, Attorney General Eric Holder told German reporters that 30 detainees had been cleared for release. This includes 17 Chinese fundamentalist Muslims, the Uighurs, some of whom admit to having been trained in al Qaeda and Taliban camps and being associated with the East Turkistan Islamic Party. This party is led by Abdul Haq, who threatened attacks on the 2008 Olympics Games in Beijing and was recently added to the Treasury Department's terrorist list. The Obama administration is considering releasing the Uighurs on U.S. soil, and it has suggested that taxpayers may have to provide them with welfare support. In a Senate hearing yesterday, Mr. Holder sidestepped lawmakers' questions about releasing detainees into the U.S. who have received terrorist training.
What about the terrorists who may actually be tried? The Justice Department's recent plea agreement with Ali Saleh al-Marri should be of grave concern to those who believe the Obama administration will vigorously prosecute terrorists in the federal court system.
Al-Marri was sent to the U.S. on Sept. 10, 2001, by KSM to carry out cyanide bomb attacks. He pled guilty to one count of "material support," a charge reserved for facilitators rather than hard-core terrorists. He faces up to a 15-year sentence, but will be allowed to argue that the sentence should be satisfied by the seven years he has been in custody. This is the kind of thin "rule of law" victory that will invigorate rather than deter our enemies.
Given all the developments since our meeting with the president, it is now evident that his words to us bore no relation to his intended actions on national security policy and detainee issues. But the narrative about Mr. Obama's successful meeting with 9/11 and Cole families has been written, and the press has moved on.
The Obama team has established a pattern that should be plain for all to see. When controversy erupts or legitimate policy differences are presented by well-meaning people, send out the celebrity president to flatter and charm.
Most recently, Mr. Obama appeared at the CIA after demoralizing the agency with the declassification and release of memos containing sensitive information on CIA interrogations. He appealed to moral vanity by saying that fighting a war against fanatic barbarians "with one hand tied behind your back" is being on "the better side of history," even though innocent lives are put at risk. He promised the assembled staff and analysts that if they keep applying themselves, they won't be personally marked for career-destroying sanctions or criminal prosecutions, even as disbelieving counterterrorism professionals -- the field operatives and their foreign partners -- shut down critical operations for fear of public disclosure and political retribution in the never-ending Beltway soap opera called Capitol Hill.
It worked: On television, his speech looked like a campaign rally, with people jumping up and down, cheering. Meanwhile, the media have moved on, even as they continue to recklessly and irresponsibly use the word "torture" in their stories.
I asked Cmdr. Kirk Lippold why some of the Cole families declined the invitation to meet with Barack Obama at the White House.
"They saw it for what it was."
Ms. Burlingame, a former attorney and a director of the National September 11 Memorial Foundation, is the sister of Charles F. "Chic" Burlingame III, the pilot of American Airlines flight 77, which was crashed into the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001."
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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skipt,
just curious...
if you yell at the wind enough,
does it stop blowing?
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