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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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Whats a 'beginner" route, anything from 10 down?
Sure, that works.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I don't know, if you're talking trad, then from what I see around here you better bump that down to anything below 5.7...
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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I don't know, if you're talking trad, then from what I see around here you better bump that down to anything below 5.7...
Isn't this a thread about bolted climbs?
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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The scenario o-man describes with his older route is increasingly played out. Pioneering FAists are asked to add bolts or allow them to be added as the runout nature of those routes are no longer in "character" with the many more modern (sport, whatever) routes developed in recent years.
(And not saying your decision was wrong or anything o-man.)
But it's just interesting and kinda sad that many crags had a traditional character or theme, but then when a slew of new routes go in to outnumber the trad (GU) routes, the theme has supposedly changed, and by golly those older routes should be modified (permission or no) so they get climbed. Like others have said, shouldn't there be a variety of climbs for everyone? Should we not strive to preserve either the original character of the crag/area (as is the case with the Pinnacles) or at least the older routes?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Should we not strive to preserve either the original character of the crag/area (as is the case with the Pinnacles) or at least the older routes?
I'd say so, and say if the FA team didn't go back and personally retro-bolt a line in the first five or ten years then it should stay as it is regardless of what the FA team now thinks or agrees to in historical hindsight. People get old, weak, and republican (not say you have O-man) so I just don't think anyone should be tampering with old routes other than 1-for-1 fixed pro maintenance - leave'em as they are with very rare exception.
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WBraun
climber
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leave'em as they are with very rare exception.
What would be an exception in your mind?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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People get old, weak, and republican
Oh sh#t what's next for me, republican? Ouch!
I have no issue with someone adding bolts to a route if the FAist has
given his blessing but if not no way.
BTW this has been a nice conversation!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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What would be an exception in your mind?
When it was less a deliberate climb, however desperate, and instead more of an epic mistake you somehow survived and would never consider climbing again whether the next next day or next decade.
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katiebird
climber
yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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Great conversation indeed - just what i was looking for.
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
Trad climber
Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville
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So.............
Lurch at Sugarloaf is 5.8. it comes off the slab near the top onto a short headwall and is pretty run out to the first bolt. It one came off the 5.8 moves before the bolt (which would not be difficult to do), I think no one would dispute that broken bones would result. It is one of only a handful routes at that grade and as such draws beginner/intermediate climbers to it and the route next to it. One of the first ascentionists was asked and he declared that it would be fine "to add a bolt or 2". I'm not sure if he is republican yet, he is definitely getting a on, and he was never ever weak, and I dare say would still kick your arse even if he had to use a stick.
Do we add the bolt?
I say yes. I think there are still lots of scary testpieces at the Loaf (Cry Mary, Ghost in the Machine comes to mind)that the harder climbers can throw themselves at and that's as it should be, but beginner climbers just fall off things more, and I think they deserve to have a few routes to climb and work up the grades without shattering their ankles if their footwork fails them. Save that for those of us that still embrace some fear in their lives
Aidan (old but not republican)
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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climbingcook nailed (or bolted) it!
"On the other hand, if you're putting up lines on quality rock places where other people are likely to climb them then it matters. Especially if you're putting up beginner routes with pointless runouts.
The majority of the easy routes at Pinnacles are poorly protected, yet the majority of the difficult routes are well protected -- aren't we doing a disservice to the community by having a different standard for those that are new to the sport?"
If it's hard for the FA it has plenty of bolts!
Thanks
Erik
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Werner,
Snake Dike would be an example of a climb apprpriately retro-bolted, but:
1. The FAist gave their permission; and
2. The retro-bolter(s?) kept it adventurous.
I disagree that Lurch at Sugarloaf should be retro-bolted. The climb has been that way for decades. There are plenty of other routes to climb there. Besides, runout leads are a part of a great many "easy" climbs, and running it out is a part of trad climbing.
John
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Bolts are put up by people with a big ego, who want their name in a guide book no matter what, or by climbers afraid to lead any pitch that is not like what they are used to in the gym, often with little experience at placing pro. The simple rule is: If you end up in a pickle and cannot complete a pitch, swallow your pride and climb down. If you cannot put up a new route with a bit of runout, swallow your pride and come down. You might think "Yes, I know that the line is great and will be a great first ascent at 5.1x after I place a few bolts for the hard/runout part", but the mor realistic approach would be to think "It is too hard for my climbing level, and I will come back to it after I improve". There is no substitute for leading 100 pitches of 5.7, then leading another 100 pitches of 5.8 and so on until you are good enough. Bolts are for sissies who destroy my rocks!
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I'm sexy and coming to a crag near you;......I'll be winkin' at you....so look for me....(Don't hate me because I'm beautiful...)....
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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Bolts are for sissies who destroy my rocks!
Don't you mean to say "Damn kids! Get off my lawn!"?
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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It's true, if you add a bolt to prevent people from breaking their ankles how will anyone know that they are bad ass 5.8 hard men? Will their girlfriends and wives leave them if they clip that bolt? Would skipping it get you extra points on 8a? Would the bolt get chopped if it were put in on rappel? Would it stay if it were done on lead? Why do the same people that think the FA party have the final say object to adding a bolt with consent from the FA party?
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inyoupyos
climber
California
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Whatever happened to the mindset that we prepare ourselves for challenges in a rock climb instead of making the rock climb submit, and bringing the route down to a level we can already handle?
I'm not all for routes that are ankle busters, or worse, but since there are some who are, be it the BY or an unremarkable 5.4, those who first ascended an R or X route, engaged in a mental challenge arguably important to get good at if climbing outside at all. What is climbing to become if it is all merely safe, and f'n completely boring.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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^^^^^^^^
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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We swiftly skied the loose gravel mountain side down to the valley where we had some of our favorite beverage stashed in the icy river. We sat on the tail gate and enjoyed some much needed refreshment, and reflected on the day’s efforts. We absorbed the view of the Cathedral Spires as last rays of sun hit Cynical Pinnacle along with the sounds of the raging Platte River and the comradely of two best friends! We were well into our beverages and completely blissed out when were approached by a climber that appeared out of nowhere. He seemed friendly enough and looked thirsty. Maurice said Ma’an, you want a beer?” He accepted the offer so we shared the tail gate and our cold beer with him as we name dropped and swapped climbing stories. The conversation eventually turned to bolting. The guy said that he had been up at The Dome and he had been chopping the bolts on a route that had been placed on rappel. He stated that he intended to chop all the bolts in the Platte that had been placed on rappel! When Maurice heard this fellows bold statement he looked the guy in the eye and said, “Ma’an, I don’t Rap bolt, BUT, if I did, and you were to chop ANY of MY bolts, and I found out about it, I’d find out where you lived and slash your tires!” And, I personally believe, he meant it!
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inyoupyos
climber
California
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But to try to answer the OP, the main distinction seems to be how singular the focus on meeting a physical challenge rather than a multi-faceted focus required in trad climbing which demands everything. Is the Cookie Monster considered to be a sport climb? People climb it like it is, but to see it climbed all trad is just so badass btw.
What I hear mainly from FAists, rap bolting isn’t generally a respected form of putting up a route unless it is way too difficult for most people to ever consider putting up ground up. Undoubtedly there are awesome lines put up that way. What’s not so cool, “development”, especially by rap bolters who would usurp routes at such a rate as Healyj says, I’ve heard so many purists intimate it’s like stealing the adventure and the history that could be made. And so is adding bolts to climbs without the FAists consent, maybe even with consent years later.
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