Guiding Everest is not morally defensible

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Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

May 20, 2012 - 10:51am PT

There was supposed to be a two day window of good weather on Everest but it
only lasted one day. Climbers have reported that it is very windy and snowing so
I'm guessing there have been fatalities and we will read about them after the
families have been notified.

I'm sure this will provoke yet another round of media criticism.

jstan

climber

May 20, 2012 - 10:55am PT

No one has ever seen a god. Any god. Yet we have argued gods for thousands of years.

As I mentioned very early on, Jim's choice of the word "moral" was problematic. In the last 100,000 years, ever since our specie came into existence, I doubt any "moral" question has ever been resolved. If I am having trouble getting into my seat harness and I want to make the task impossible, I would do one of two things. I could jump into the flooded creek right above Yosemite Falls, or worse, I could claim use of a seat harness is immoral.

Jim might instead have said, merely, what we are doing on Everest is irresponsible. Very narcissistic and fundamentally self serving. That this circus is not our highest achievement.

I have proposed a very simple and practicable approach to the problem, so I need say no more about that.

Coz, I generally read your stuff. Some of it has been very good. This last can't be described in that way. But, hey, we all make mistakes. Mistakes have a truly wonderful property.

They can be turned into really important successes

merely by admitting they were mistakes.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2012 - 10:56am PT

I haven't been to Everest but I've done a lot of serious alpinism in numerous ranges around the World, including the HIimalayas. I also have experience as a guide. If you read my opening statement you will remember my conversation with Alex Lowe who guided the mountain twice.
This thread is not about me, it's about the situation on Everest and other 8000 meter peaks. I believe my experience over the years and my friendship with climbers familiar with Everest et al allows me, in good faith, to posit the question. Dissenting opinions are welcome and expected but, please, stick to the subject.

splitter

Trad climber

Hodad, surfing the galactic plane

May 20, 2012 - 11:00am PT

Bruce Kay- "Generally speaking, yes they do."

AWESOME!

I actually have one additional question, and perhaps more "general" but none the less appropriate(imo)...

"Did they wear Da Brim?"

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

May 20, 2012 - 11:04am PT

jim,so youve never been to nepal ?

nopantsben

climber

May 20, 2012 - 11:08am PT

you guys questioning whether Jim has the right to say what he said in the OP about guiding everest are missing the point. (edited - too rude in v.1.)
to have an opinion on this subject you need a brain, not a stupid 8000m peak resume.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2012 - 11:14am PT

You are correct, but I have climbed in the Himalayas of China, Pakistan and Tajikistan. You may remember a short time ago when some clients died on K2 because their fixed rope was severed and they were left to cope with a real climbing situation without the necessary skills. K2 is in Pakistan not far from the Choktoi and Biafo glaciers where I have climbed.
Again, it's not about me, it's about people being brought into serious mountain environments without the coping skills should things go wrong.
I think that my experiences both as a guide and as an alpine climber are sufficient for me to pose the question.

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

May 20, 2012 - 11:44am PT

Isn't then the most experienced climber in a group of non-guided climbers, essentially the guide, and should that person perish, the group would be left without the vast experience of the now-departed most experienced climber, thus placing the group in the dire straights that Donini suggests is a pitfall of guiding from the moral perspective?

Actually it may simply be about degrees of grey and personal distaste for the $$$ involved.

Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

May 20, 2012 - 12:26pm PT

Having just proofread a forthcoming book on K2, I beg to differ with
Jim's interpretation of events there in 2006. Most of the people who died
had the skills to descend without a fixed line but they lacked the judgement
to do so due to exhaustion and lack of oxygen.

Several ran out of oxygen because of long delays and mistakes made in fixing
the ropes to begin with. Many were killed in a succession of avalanches. Some
of the people who died were professional guides and some who made it down
that night were fairly amateur but better able genetically to survive at high
altitude. Many highly skilled people were simply unlucky.

steve shea

climber

May 20, 2012 - 12:29pm PT

I have been to Nepal and Tibet mulitple times. Two types of trips, expedition and alpine style. Some times with people I've known for a long time some I met for the first time in the airport on the flight in. I would say Donini is more than qualified to pose the question and wether or not he has set foot in Nepal Himal is beside the point. I would also say he probably has more mt experience than most of the folks on Everest right now. As jstan has posted nothing has been resolved but the posts are interesting...some of them. It is what keeps us coming back. The personal attacks not so much. I do not think genetics has much to do with acclimatizing. You can be predisposed to transport more oxygen but still fail miserably at altitude.

Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

May 20, 2012 - 12:39pm PT

Are you saying the Sherpas and Tibetans do not have an advantage at
altitude? All the research indicates otherwise. We've even discovered
at least some of the mutations on their DNA that makes it possible.

And yes, good thread and Jim is definitely qualified to comment!
You too, Steve.

steve shea

climber

May 20, 2012 - 12:44pm PT

I'm talking non local team members. You know, the clients, the guides and the folks with the dough. Each one of my trips inolved way different rates of acclimatizing and I was pretty fit and lived at 8000'. You are certainly correct though on the locals. I always marveled at the porters as well as the sherpas. On one trip the Freindship Bridge was closed on the Tibetan side due to mud slides. We had a truck loads of gear that needed to be moved across the bridge and up the hill to the waiting Chinese army vehicles. The porters carried extra loads of extra weight for more money. Tiny people were carrying 100lb loads, barefoot, up a muddy goat track so steep that if you fell you were going the dstance. They didn't even go up the road. Jan, I promise to put up Menlungtse.

Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

May 20, 2012 - 01:05pm PT

I'm definitely looking forward to those Melungtse photos when you have time!

Meanwhile, a couple of observations about aclimatizing. For me it always had to
do with speed of ascent while I've read that the early British expeditions noticed
that people who had been to the Himalaya before almost always re-acclimated
better the second time than newcomers who were younger and fitter.

steve shea

climber

May 20, 2012 - 01:18pm PT

I think they learned HOW to acclimatze.I don't know if you ever get used to it. Hypoxia happens. Most go too fast on the first trip. Everyone is fit and psyched up and blow it pushing too hard. I've seen it many times. Fat, relaxed and slow was what I learned worked best for me. Where I really noticed the differences in trips was once I was ready I never performed the same way twice.

jstan

climber

May 20, 2012 - 01:45pm PT

I'll try and look on the internet but I suspect the data will show autopsy on sherpas finds above average heart size and above average diameters for the circulatory system. When Secretariat was autopsied the heart weighed 22 pounds, A normal weight is 9 pounds. A genetic factor for heart size is known among horses.

http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/nutbush/

Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

May 20, 2012 - 02:00pm PT

I know that's true for the Indians in the Andes, but the Tibetans and Sherpas seem
to be able to process oxygen more efficiently rather than having larger hearts etc.

Check out
http://www.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pubmed/20838600

and related articles.

zBrown

Ice climber

Chula Vista, CA

May 20, 2012 - 02:03pm PT

Again, it's not about me, it's about people being brought into serious mountain environments without the coping skills should things go wrong.
I think that my experiences both as a guide and as an alpine climber are sufficient for me to pose the question.

Correct and nail on head. Should someone risk somebody else's life? And the corollary: Should someone stop someone from risking someone else's life?

Dover

Trad climber

New England

May 20, 2012 - 03:13pm PT

A great thread with lots to think about. Thanks to Jim for starting it.

I wonder how much of the current Everest circus comes from the culture of climbing itself? I think about the idea that people are led up Everest who have limited qualifications. It reminds me of the Appie-Vulgarian wars in the Gunks. Granted, the vulgarians were certainly well-qualified, but the idea that there should be some standard of climber qualification got summarily thrown off the cliff. Maybe, too, it was part of the times, but clearly, the outcome was there should be no restrictions on climbers. Maybe we are paying the price for that now on Everest.