Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
|
By not exactly true, I mean that clearly in many cases people are having to switch. But many of those people would actually have to switch anyway, the way things have been in the insurance market in recent years.
And in many cases the switch that people are having to make is to plans that are actually better. They cover preventative stuff and have lower copays and deductibles. Probably not the case all the time. But again, are the number of cases where this is completely not true really meaningful?
|
|
Hoser
climber
vancouver
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
|
you can't get over the fact that people should no more be allowed to have inadquate health insurance
That is the part people dont get, same with the guy who said all his wife wanted was catastrophic insurance.
Thats not how insurance works, the payments of the many pay for the losses of the few. If we all just did the bare minimum it wouldnt work, in any type of insurance.
|
|
Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
|
In other words, you can't get over the fact that people should no more be allowed to have inadquate health insurance than they should be allowed to drive around in cars with no headlights, bad brakes, no smog cert etc. You certainly can keep your car, just like you're being allowed to keep the same health coverage- as long as they both meet standards that society decides are adequate.
My private insurance policy is being terminated. I will now pay more for less. Straight up MASSIVE tax increase on the middle/ lower middle class that operate small business. No denying that. Oh yeah, my policy is cancelled because it does not contain coverage for things I will never use at this point in my life ie maternity coverage.
Obamacare is just another mis guided idealistic pie in the sky social policy to attract voters
that will end in classic inefficient government style...failure.
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
|
Bullshit hedge, not an accurate analogy at all.
I had good insurance, it was $150 dollars a month. It had all the coverage I wanted. I can keep an identical plan for $1200 a month. Since I cannot afford that I need to file for Obama Care which is going to cost $700 a month for a bunch of coverage I don't want or need. Obama Care forces me to buy a Ferrari when all I want and can afford is a nice midsize commuter.
It's only affordable or free if you make no money, pay no taxes or contribute anything to society. But if you have a job and make money, prepare to pay. Socialism at its best.
Strait up lie, but what do you expect from the most corrupt, close doored, scandal ridden president in American history?
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
|
forget discussing the ACA with people like JohnE and others
they oppose it, period, end of story
Yes, I do, for all of the reasons I've stated over the past five years.
I do, however, have quite a bit of trouble getting over the cavalier attitude so many on this forum display toward the lies the ACA's proponents made in support of the law, and particularly that you can keep your insurance if you like it. I guess, to them, it just wasn't news that those statements were known to be misleading and false when made.
I'm also bemused by the statement about how insurance works. The statement that insurance for catastrophes only cannot work defies hundreds, if not thousands of years of insurance law. (For those who question my use of "thousands" in the previous sentence, markets for maritime insurance of cargo existed in the Roman Empire, and probably predate it.)
"Insurance" consists of pooling of risks, against which everyone in the pool agrees to be insured. The idea that insuring only catastrophic health care costs won't work because the customers need to be in the pool for everyone is rather like saying that flood insurance won't work unless people who live where there is no danger of flooding need to pay for flood insurance so those who live where there is a flood risk can afford the insurance. Oops! Federal flood insurance, subsidized by taxpayers, actually has that basis, but I digress. . .
John
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
|
By the way, if I don't control pop-ups or drop-downs, every time I click onto this thread, I get a drop-down ad for health care coverage.
This has nothing to do with this site or cmac, by the way. About the only one worse is the drop-down for finding a bankruptcy lawyer every time I access the website for the bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of California (but, fortunately, not for any other bankruptcy court website -- yet). That one's particularly annoying because the features I need there require me to turn down my pop-up controls. Grrr.
John
|
|
Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
|
Problem is the young and healthy are not going to sign up when they see what they are going to pay. Also, employers will offer subsidized healthcare payments only to the top brass creating more that choose not to buy insurance.
Financial liability is going to hit the middle class square in the discretionary income pocket. This will cause our economy to rebound LOLOLOL
Young punks are not going to give up their meager hard earned wages to subsidize the boomer geezers.
Obamacare is great in theory. Implementation and future funding will be a disaster.
|
|
Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
|
Time will tell Norton.
Obamacare will be just another notch on the bedpost of the selfish generation that has and will continue loading future generations with debt and liability.
No matter, you will be gone and will have exploited the system for all it is worth.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
|
It does appear that the current Obamacare implementation, like the health insurance business in general, does not treat insurance purely as a catastrophic risk mitigation but rather includes a "prepaid health care" component.
That is exactly my point. I was criticized earlier because my argument suggested that not everyone needed to buy prepaid health care. The response was that I was wrong because everyone needed to buy it to share the risk of being unable to pay. That's an argument for an insurance model, not a mandated prepaid healthcare model.
John
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
|
What's "extreme"about this?
113TH CONGRESS
1ST
SESSION
S.ll
To amend the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act to ensure that
individuals can keep their health insurance coverage.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
llllllllll
llllllllll
introduced the following bill; which was read twice
and referred to the Committee on
llllllllll
A BILL
To amend the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
to ensure that individuals can keep their health insurance
coverage.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
2
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
3
This Act may be cited as the ‘‘If You Like Your Health Plan, You Can Keep it Act’’.
5
SEC. 2. AMENDMENT TO THE PATIENT PROTECTION AND AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.
7
(a) I
GENERAL
.—Part 2 of subtitle C of title I of
8
the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (42
9
Whole text as pdf here
http://www.weeklystandard.com/sites/all/files/docs/If%20You%20Like%20Your%20Plan%20Text%20%281%29.pdf
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
|
But we probably also agree that this flaw can be remedied without dismantling the entire program, shutting down the federal government, and/or impeaching the president.
So why does the Republican party insist upon these extreme alternatives? We do agree, Dave, and the shutdown played out almost exactly as I said it would, except that the Obama administration has been sufficiently opaque and incompetent to give the Tea Partiers credence among those who should know better.
Then again, if the Republicans really cared about governance back in 2004 when they had both houses of Congress plus the presidency (Yes, I know the Dems say that's not enough, but I digress again), they would have tackled a comprehensive overhaul of the health-care system. Instead, they tried to be Democrats-lite, and passed a prescription drug benefit that was unfunded and undermined Medicare's solvency. If the Democrats had offered a better alternative than John Kerry, I would probably have voted Democrat in 2004.
To me, the Republican actions then, together with DeLay's nefarious tactics, showed little difference from what the Democrats did, but with less heart and less brains -- a bad combination. Once the Democrats took over, they simply ignored the Republicans, as mentioned by others, and we ended up with a bill to which a very large proportion of the population is opposed. Selling it by lying about the effect on policies has now come home to roost as well. How do centrists get a voice these days?
John
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
|
Do not panic. Everything is under control.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Transmen and Transwomen and people of uncertain gender identities, some of you may be alarmed by recent reports of malfunctioning health care websites and policy cancellations.
Do not be alarmed. We know what we are doing.
Health care plans are not being cancelled. Opportunities are being transitioned. Some people are being moved from bad health care plans to good health care plans with higher deductibles and higher premiums that will provide transmen with maternity care and people of uncertain gender identities with drug counseling and mental health treatment.
This is a good thing. Warning. This is a good thing.
You are being transitioned. Why do you resist?
Forget your old health plan. It was placed in the trunk of a Prius at 3 AM this morning, taken to a frozen lake outside an organic poultry plant in Minnesota and shot twice in the head. It was a bad plan. It has transitioned to no longer being a plan. We have a better plan for you.
Go to Healthcare.gov and… correction, do not go there. Forget that you were told to go there or not to go there. Forget that it even existed. Forget that you read this.
Healthcare.gov is working. Do not visit Healthcare.gov to confirm that it is working. If you wish to transition to your opportunity, why not apply by phone or mail or carrier pigeon?
And don’t be alarmed. You are being given a great opportunity to transition to being a better person.
Your old health plan selfishly paid for your health care. Your new health plan will pay for everyone’s healthcare. Your premiums reflect the number of people who need mental health counseling, drug counseling and sex change operations in your area. This is your opportunity to give back.
Only the very rich, and you, have had their opportunities transitioned. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise, go to Healthcare.gov and report them immediately.
Correction, do not go to Healthcare.gov. The site is down. Tweet to Jim Messina. Correction, Jim Messina has transitioned his opportunity to become a transwoman on his new health plan and is unavailable to take your denunciation.
Write your denunciation on recycled rice paper and mail it to Healthcare.gov 935382 Federal Way, Washington D.C. Expect a response and prison sentence in 6 to 8 months.
Do not be alarmed. If you resist, you will be transitioned.
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2013/10/your-opportunity-is-being-transitioned.html
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
|
Dave Kos wrote:
the fact that you quoted the "pass it before you know what's in it" propaganda point means that you are already watching Fox News. That line, taken out of context, is a complete misrepresentation.
Fox News? I only have Netflix in my house, and only watch that for 4 hours a week. You might not know what I watch, but at least the president's home boys do.
The quote I used may have been taken out of context, but in my defense and considering other things I have heard Pelosi say, it is very easy to believe. In addition, that propaganda quote pales next to the president's mendacious assertions. My mistake on a quote, but I'll hold on to my healthy skepticism of ACA due to anecdotal but true stories from several friends who are affected negatively.
|
|
Larry Nelson
Social climber
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
|
Ken M wrote:
Larry, I assume you are not a complete dunce. Perhaps you can cite that provision that exempts politicians?
Hey Ken,
As I replied to jghedge: "I stand corrected. A one year waiver for certain groups. As I have mentioned, I have a life beyond watching the news and I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out a very complicated issue. Kudos to you for knowing so much".
I will add that even though many who know me may disagree, your assumption is mostly correct.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
|
Yes, many of these policies do have preventative medicine inclusions that weren't in people's previous catastrophic coverage. That's a good thing if you're trying to reduce health care costs across the board in this country.
It's a lot cheaper for all of us to pay pennies so that people can be covered for pregnancies, mammography, colonoscopies, etc. All of those things can result in huge costs without the preventative side. Seems to me there has been at least one individual on this site that died from colon cancer that would probably have been treatable if detected earlier (at least that is what he said).
At this point, you're 100% correct John. I don't give a flying flip if Obama wasn't being truthful about the plan thing. He was trying to get more people covered, more preventative medicine in place, and other things to reduce costs. I'm willing to forgive a fair amount for those good goals. Especially when the GOP isn't offering up squat. And I've spent the last 15 years working in healthcare, so I have a pretty good idea about what I'm talking about.
|
|
Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
|
|
|
Oct 31, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
|
How do centrists get a voice these days?
John
Join the Democratic party. There is no longer any place in the Republican tent for centrists.
Curt
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Why do I have to pay and these guys are exempt? Isn't this a all for one and one for all type thing?
Because they are self-insured, and they ALREADY pay to insure their employees to the same degree that is required by the ACA.
Ideally, all companies would be in this category. But some give inadequate insurance, and so are not exempt.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
One thing that no one seems to have noticed: there are many insurance companies that are raising their rates in a way that is not rationally related to the ACA.
Some are cancelling some policies, requiring people to purchase a new policy at higher prices.
This should result in vast increases in profits.
But there is a catch. The law requires that 85% of the premium be spent on medical care. If less it, it must be refunded.
However, that repayment won't take place for a year. Effectivly, it is a loan of money for no interest!
And, if the ins co's manage to get the ACA repealed.....they keep the money!
Follow the money.......
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!