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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 27, 2005 - 07:24pm PT
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Largo (JL) wrote:
> I might be wrong, but the authors of Wings of Steel were not big wall veterans of much experience. hey surely must have done at least the Nose and Column and Leaning Tower and so forth; but I suspec had they taken the time to repeat a handful of the hard aid lines of the day, Wings of Steel would have looked different.
I don't agree. What would repeating The Shield, Pacific Ocean Wall, Sea of Dreams, etc. change about how they climbed the slab? It takes the low-angle hooking like they did. No techniques from the Shield Roof, Triple Cracks, etc. apply. Plus as Richard noted, they might have even learned bad habits from the Sea of Dreams regarding drilled hooking. All the failed repeat attempts on Wings of Steel have proven that it is no mere bolt ladder put up by unskilled climbers. And the time it takes to repeat a "handful fo the hard aid lines of the day" is a lot to ask. Plus, in 1981, the yellow (1982) Meyers guide with all the big wall topos did not exist. Maybe in 1982 or later, repeating the hard routes would have been a more accessible option. It takes a dream and a vision to go out there and get on a hard FA without the comforts of knowing you're a big-time wall veteran. That is something to aspire to, not a valid basis for criticism from the peanut gallery. Unless of course their route had bolts/holes next to usable features, which is quite clearly not the case.
Others have pointed out the basis for criticism of the route is that the slab is too blank and requires "too many" holes. Richard Jensen has answered this criticism nicely - the yardstick of a given number of holes (145 for Wings of Steel, according to Charles Cole's article in ~1986) does not apply as well to the largely (but not completely) crackless slab. It's easy to understand the opposition by the valley locals, expecting another potential Wall of Early Morning Light drillfest or even worse. Plus maybe the perception of Jensen and Smith as inexperienced outsiders, or "taking forever". But we've since seen the 40+ day FAs and large hanging camps of the Gallego brothers, and prior to Wings of Steel there was Kroger and Davis, relative unknowns on the FA of the Heart Route. So we are finally able to get the right perspective on Wings of Steel.
Thanks for posting all the details, Richard and Mark! Us aid climbing history buffs and occasional El Cap climbers who missed the mags and slideshows at the time have wondered what the story was!
On the topo (1987 Meyers&Reid guide), the only mention of bathooks is on the p13 traverse to Aquarian. How did that get on the topo? Does it really just mean Leeper pointed? I realize that sometimes when (wrong) things get into print they "take on a life of their own", and take Richard's statements that no bathooks were used as the truth. I'm just curious about the published version of the topo.
As Ammon said, is there a better topo? Published in 1983 Climbing? Maybe Greg can check his Climbing mag collection? If Richard or Mark mail me a copy of the original topo, I will scan it and put it on my website. (Not that I am looking to repeat it; I'm light, but I wouldn't stand up to the falls - um, because I'm *light*!).
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darod
Trad climber
New York
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Oct 27, 2005 - 07:31pm PT
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Thanks JL for giving your two cents. Your post however, sheds great light on regards what pissed people off back when WOS was put up. It actually just confirm what was obvious: they didn't pay their respects, they didn't prove themselves to the "community" FIRST. How dare they!!??
Jeff, Clint, I couldn't agree more with your comments.
Pretty transparent I think, lots of local pride (the wrong kind), that's all.
darod.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 27, 2005 - 09:21pm PT
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I sit in Largo's camp.
While not to disrespect their climb, I think it is foolhardy to jump on a big wall with a big bag of bolts ensuring your sucess.
Perhaps they did utalize their hooks to the best of their ability...regardless...like the great one said, "it's carrying your courage in a rucksack."
"What would El Cap say?" is an awesome question.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Oct 27, 2005 - 09:43pm PT
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i remember living in kansas in the early 90's. I was misguided having been part of an SLC crowd in the late 70s thru the 80's having the opportunity to climb with Mugs, G. Lowe and others.
Misguided? When I learned that guys like Anker, Shaw and others were doing big walls in a day in Yos I thought what the hey, I can do that! I used to climb with those guys! My first Yos Wall was NIAD while training in my garage. Next was Salathe in a day. A middle aged guy wih a mortage from the midlands. I used to hate those adds "Your not in Kansas anymore". BS.
I remember at a slideshow party a bunch of KC climbers giving me sh#t because I had claimed to do such a thing. The slides pretty much shut them up.
While I did not do anything really out of the ordinary or extreme, it was for me and I am proud of those ascents.
Lambone and largo, I humbly disagree. The paved path is not always the best path for everyone. If it were, innovation and firsts would be doled out based upon ones "standing" as it were.
I believe that is the way it used to be in communist russia.
Great thread and thanks to everyone.
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jeff benowitz
climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
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"What would el cap think" is classic. Such a statement implies that you know what el cap would think, and that el cap would agree with you, which is also classic. Here's my two cents on "What would el cap think"
People like to hear themselves speak. To have their written words read. Painter’s ink etchings for others to view. A house built by an architect is not referred to as a home until someone moves in. Following this paradigm, in the micro-cosim of the world of climbing, a first ascent is often not recognized unless it has been witnessed, photographed, or written about.
Mountaineers are so accustomed to climbers speaking of their deeds, that it has been assumed in the past that a route and even a peak (in a few cases) haven’t been climbed because no one has made public pronouncements about the ascent. The following example of self-involved egocentric climbing actually occurred.
In the late 1980’s a party of aspiring climbers headed into the remote Revelation mountains of South Central Alaska. Their goal was a peak named the Angel, that had been attempted decades earlier by the famous mountaineer David Roberts. After much trial and tribulations the team succeeded in climbing the peak, only to find rappel slings on the summit tower.
Returning to “civilization” they were indignant that they had risked their lives and spent a small fortune to climb a prize that had unbeknownst to them had already been claimed. The second ascent party even laid a verbal assault against the folks--they tracked them down by finding out who had flown into the range recently--who had climbed the peak that stated they should have told people about their climb. The second ascentists claimed that they had some sort of fundamental right to know of the peak’s ascent. Tom Waters and his friends had climbed the Angel the year before, but felt no need to announce it to the world. The climbing was hard and challenging for them, but they climbed for personal reasons, not public. Mountains are not concerned about ascents or ascentists. Such is purely a human concern.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Oct 27, 2005 - 10:32pm PT
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Dogpiling Largo. I won't join in.
I don't know, he's talking about the progression of the "movement," meaning big wall climbing and the aid community. He's not saying toe the line. His generation was pretty uppity, but they didn't come out of nowhere.
Did Mark and Richard have a blast doing their route? For sure.
Did it set a new standard for difficulty? No, because it wasn't accepted when put up, and now that window has passed.
Did it expand aid's possibilities? Maybe, that you can get up slabs. Again, was it accepted? No. Is it accepted? Still no.
Did the community benefit as a whole? Obviously no. Ill will still abounds.
Could the answer to all these have been yes?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 27, 2005 - 11:12pm PT
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Dogpile on, boys. What I have written and still write is nothing but my opinion--not the voice of God or any such hogwash--and everyone is obviously free to express their own. In asking what El Cap might think about the ascent does not imply that I know the answer, otherwise I would have provided the answer.
Nobody needs permission to climb anything. Not from me. Not from anyone. I never asked for permission or endorcement from anyone to climb anything at any time. But I was sensitive, at least to myself and my peers, that we conducted ourselves to the best of our abilities in a way that did the Yosemite climber proud, meaning we tried to push things as best we could because we felt there was a tradition to uphold, and if possible, advance.
At that time (70s), most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives, so we built on the past and tried to sustain the tradition. Elitist? Well, we tried to maintain an elite standard. That's what gave the thing meaning and direction.
There's nothing "wrong" with breaking with tradition--look at the sport climbing revolution. But sport climbing opened up a whole new world, and I simply wonder if Wings of Steel broke with tradition in a way that advanced the sport in the round. It's an interesting question, and one that everyone has to answer for themselves.
Lastly, I always felt that when you do a big new route with a lot of drilling, it's not just about you, the guys who make the first ascent. I still feel that way.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2005 - 11:16pm PT
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Jeff said: "What would el cap think" is classic. Such a statement implies that you know what el cap would think and that el cap would agree with you ...."
Not so Jeff, that’s really what you are trying to imply not what Largo’s real question was. Such a question is actually presented to the owner of material nature the real doer.
The self is merely the witness to the movements of material nature. Although the self animates material nature, it becomes overwhelmed by material nature's influence and thinks itself to be the doer of acts that are in actuality performed by material nature. For example, the self animates material nature by the force of desire and then material nature consumes the self in an illusory world of misidentification.
This might be to way out there for most people to comprehend? But that’s ok too.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:00am PT
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To Clint Cummins:
The Meyers/Reid guide is correct about the bathooks connecting to Aquarian Wall on the last pitch. There are, I think, 10 bathooks getting across that traverse. I always tend to conflate "the route" with "the slab," since ongoing jibes like "a thousand bolts to Horse Chute" keep reminding me that everybody who was/is pissed off was/is pissed off about what we did on the great slab. So, what I have always meant when I talk about "the route" is the slab. Notice that not one person on this topic has even mentioned the 400 feet of overhanging copperhead seams getting from the slab to Aquarian Wall. Nobody tends to think about that part of the "route" as any issue, and so I just didn't think about that traverse either. But, to be as precise in speaking as possible, there are no bathooks on the slab; as is clearly stated on our original topo, and as all published topos show, there are some bathooks on the short traverse connecting Wings to Aquarian.
Now, since using bathooks was not our practice on the route, it bears explaination WHY we used them there just to exit our route into Aquarian Wall. At that point in the route we had three rivets left (I guess we didn't bring a big enough load of "courage in our rucksack," so to speak), we had dropped our sharpening stone somewhere during the last third of the slab (so all of our drill bits were really dull and would barely drill), and so we couldn't drill a ladder of full-depth bolts just to get ourselves off of our route and across to Aquarian (keep in mind that we were down to 600 calories per day by that point). The wall is overhanging there, so a lengthy pendulum was not an option (note a short tension traverse at the end of p13). Thus, our three rivets went into that traverse (one for the tension traverse) and the other placements are bathooks. I hope this explains our thinking and the existence of the anomolous bathooks.
To Ammon:
All topos I've seen are adapted from the original topo we drew in 1982. Our topo showed every hole (with 'r' for rivet and 'x' for bolt), so our topo required some adaptation to fit into a guidebook format. On the published topos, most of the X's that appear within pitches are zinc/aluminum (zamak style) rivets with button heads. Some pitch ratings have been downgraded either because guidebook editors assumed we overrated things or because ratings in general have deflated over time. The Meyers/Reid topo is plenty good enough to get you there.
You will want to a take a bunch of #2 heads (at least 40). We weren't smart enough in '82 (neither was anybody else) to realize that heads should ONLY be made from stainless steel cable, so the heads we didn't want to destroy getting out are surely JUNK by now!
Every anchor has a 3/8" bolt and so should still be ok. The bolts in pitches (and the other bolts at anchors) were 1/4" but with button heads, well placed, and with Leeper hangers (which were the best out there at the time). But after all these years they may be becoming suspect (we have personally broken two Leeper hangers over the years--not our own, but ones existing on other routes).
If you want to email me directly, I'll thrutch around to see if I can come up with an original topo to scan and send you.
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:04am PT
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Clint,
Regarding “[there’s] mention of bathooks on the traverse to Aquarian. How did that get on the topo?”
The topo is accurate. There are no bat hooks in Wings of Steel throughout the Great Slab or the crack systems above the Overseer Roof. Wings of Steel comes to an end 50 feet right of Aquarian Wall. There is a 13 hole ladder ending in a tension traverse to join Aquarian. Ten of these holes (as I recall) are bat hooks because we were out of rivets. This short traverse has no natural placements and doesn’t require any skill beyond the basic movement between aid placements. We counted the 13 holes in our hole count, although the climb is basically over at the anchor starting the traverse.
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 10:08am PT
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I respect JL immensely and always enjoy his writing.
Still: ...most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives...
IMO this is the key to the whole rock police enchilada, and it goes beyond WoS. It's not simply about "respecting the rock", "being one with the natural world" or "advancing a movement".
Here's what it's about: rock police craft their self-image and derive their self-esteem primarily from the feats they've accomplished on the stone. The worst of them don't have much else to live for. Anything (sport climbing) or anyone (Mark & Richard) who threatens that dynamic is put in the crosshairs. No arguments about hole counts and technical difficulty will sway them, because the issue is an emotional one not a logical one.
I am still waiting to hear why the Sea's drill enhancements are somehow mo' betta than WoS's drill enhancements. Oh, I know why: because famous locals did the drilling. OK.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 28, 2005 - 11:24am PT
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Madbolter-
This all seems like a case of a ongoing, 20 year "protesteth too much," situation if you ask me. I wasn't in the Valley when Wings of Steel went up, but remember hearing about the 145 holes during a time when the standard was to look for natural lines.
In other words, if you couldn't find a new natural line on El Cap, look elsewhere. There is something to be said for style and standards of the day.
Reading your posts about Wings of Steel, I sense an underlying arrogance:
"What we found, and what we have ALWAYS found (which is WHY I had no intention of devoting any more time to this forum after my first post), is that NOBODY would actually HEAR us or believe us. "
--how do you know? There seems to be more effort proselitizing the above statement than realizing that in reality no one really cared that much. The people who messed with your fixed ropes were definitely not the cutting edge Valley climbers of the day.
"we spent ENDLESS hours attempting dialog with people in the Valley, and we spent YEARS afterward at major climbing areas all over California explaining ourselves to the MANY people who would gather around to badger us"
--people only gather around if you call them, if it was a route truly for yourself, why talk about it at all?
"Mark and I quit counting aborted attempts on the route after about fifteen. "
--this seems like an example of caring more for the aftermath of the route than the "experience" itself.
Furthermore, is the name of the book promoting the climb really "Wings of Steel: A record 39 days on the face of El Capitan?" Spare me if so, a clear attempt to impress the non-climbing community. I'm amazed at how the general public are targeted with publicity about big numbers of days spent on a wall climb. Aquarian, right next door to your route, got climbed on the FA in four days. A lot more impressive, in my book.
Also, you keep quoting Slater as the reference of the fact that your route was at the top of the scale in difficulty. Slater was one of the best all round climbers of the day, close to the caliber of Alex Lowe, to be sure, but wall climbing wasn't his strongest suit. He rated a pitch A5+ on the Sheep Ranch,an unheard of grade at the time. I saw him when he and Barbella strolled into Camp 4, "Hardest route on El Cap!," was the first thing he said to me. When Xaver climbed that pitch, he thought that pitch A4/A4+ and even skipped a rivet (he missed it without seeing it until he was above it). And for sure, Xaver wasn't in the game of competive numbers just for the sake of promoting himself. And I found some of the other A4+ and A5 pitches moderate for the grade, A4 tops.
I sense you are trying to evangelize your cause so that people will finally believe that what you did was cutting edge and deserves "credit" for being so. Let it stand for itself if you really believe that.
Then you talk about being "silent" for 10 years. Writing a book isn't silence. It could be a good book about a wild personal experience, I don't know, I haven't read it, but gimme a break about "silence."
Lastly, from a climber's perspective, I'm a bit confused about a seeming contradiction about your drilling up there. There's a comment:
"if you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt."
--but earlier you mentioned that you enhanced hook placements.
Perhaps if you let up a little about convincing the climbing community of your "visionary" route (personally, I don't see it as such), you will reap more benefit of the personal experience itself, which is what I am sure you ultimately earnest about, and believe in your heart.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 28, 2005 - 11:42am PT
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Johnkerry wrote:
"I respect JL immensely and always enjoy his writing.
Still: ...most of the people trying to uphold the tradition had nothing else of real importance in their lives...
IMO this is the key to the whole rock police enchilada, and it goes beyond WoS. It's not simply about "respecting the rock", "being one with the natural world" or "advancing a movement".
Here's what it's about: rock police craft their self-image and derive their self-esteem primarily from the feats they've accomplished on the stone. The worst of them don't have much else to live for. Anything (sport climbing) or anyone (Mark & Richard) who threatens that dynamic is put in the crosshairs. No arguments about hole counts and technical difficulty will sway them, because the issue is an emotional one not a logical one."
Actually, that's your take on it, John, not mine.
JL
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John F. Kerry
Social climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 12:25pm PT
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"...Actually, that's your take on it, John, not mine..."
Exactly. I think I screwed up the bold/quoting in my post. Didn't mean to make it look like it was all quoting you or that the remainder of the post was your intent.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:11pm PT
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"...I wasn't in the Valley when Wings of Steel went up, but remember hearing about the 145 holes during a time when the standard was to look for natural lines.
In other words, if you couldn't find a new natural line on El Cap, look elsewhere. There is something to be said for style and standards of the day."
yeah, yeah...
a more concise version of what I was trying to say in my orginal posts. Per haps I am "not qualified to have an opinion," but surely duece and Largo are.
And I don't think their opions are based on the fact that MArk and Richard were not part of the "Camp 4 crew," I think it's an unwritten rule that you repect local standards and traditions at any climbing area that you are a new player in.
For instance, you wouldn't see me toting a power drill and rap bolting any of the hundreds of unclimbed faces in Castle Crags state park...although the territory is ripe for the picking. Because that's not how things get climbed in the Crags.
Rock Cops, sure maybe so...so what? What would our crags be like without rock cops?
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:18pm PT
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Forgive me JL if I am not remembering well, or I am out of context in some way, but I have been entertained and inspired more than once by tales of your youthful misadventures on southern California boulders.
Weren't you introduced to climbing by the dogmatic "outing clubs" at the time, though you came to reject their rigidity?
Weren't the behaviors of you and your crew frowned upoun by those in the clubs?
Weren't you considered to have not payed your dues when you tied in below the testpieces of the day?
In the end you and your cotemporaries pushed the level of climbing far above what it had been. Would you have been able to do this if you spent your time working your way up through the ranks of the clubs "properly", instead of "goofing off on the boulders".
Is you situation not-comparable to those of the FAists of Wings of Steel?
Nick
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 28, 2005 - 01:19pm PT
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No harm done, John. It's just a strange thing to think of our group in terms of "Rock Police." We all considered ourselves rebels with no ideas of ownership--of the Valley and the standards and the new route potentials. I can grasp folks not wanting to account to anyone, or any standard, or any tradition. For myself, I was much the same, but I learned over time that this method tended to leave me in a vacume where I could no longer recognize my own bullsh#t. To safeguard against that, to keep myself honest, it was always helpful to have any new routes "peer reviewed," much as a scientist has his experiments confirmed by others to vouchsafe that they are real, or not. The peer review adds nothing to the original experience, and any resulting "fame" is so small (or was back then) as to be meaningless.
I guess it's confusing for a climbing team to come out of nowhere, do a big route, then sort of demand or at any rate expect fantastic reviews from the core climbing comunity to which they were, by choice, never really a part of. In fact such a review would be forthcoming if the route caught fire as a classic. But in their defense, perhaps Wings of Steel was wrongfully bad rapped from the get-go and folks have steered clear believing--corectly or otherwise--that the line was a contrived sham and a carny show. One thing is for sure--leading aid climbers have not been scared off the thing.
What we need is for some credible team to go up there and repeat he thing so we have some concrete data to go on. Till that happens we're all just blowing smoke.
JL
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jeff benowitz
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:09pm PT
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Werner my disagreement with “what elcap thinks” has less to do with
the base philosophy that everything has a consciousness, and more
to do with my personal view on relationships with such. Your relationship with
g-d is personal as is my relationship with “the mountains.” In the same way that it irks folks when someone says, “Your going to hell because you don’t believe what I believe.”, I would never state that the mountains I have a personal relationship with (plutonic as it maybe) are passing judgment on others actions. I guess it goes even deeper, to the basis of my upbringing. Jews don’t have a heaven or hell. There is no such in the old testament-ask a highly educated Rabbi if you disagree-. I was taught not even to say the name of g-d, to do such would be disrespect. As my dad used to say, “Jeff g-d is none of your business, cleaning your room and helping your sister with her math, that is your business.” Does that make sense? Oh if anyone is wondering, Yes "us jews" own all the banks(so be nice) and control the "world governemnt." Me, my uncle Saul, gave me Iran (cause I was not nice to my sister and used my yumaka as a frisbee) and I got some work to do there next month.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:11pm PT
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First of all: Best Thread Ever! IMO.
It's interesting to me that after the WEML people still think you can dictate another climbers style. Length of time, amount of gear used, publicity, etc. is a personal choice that no other person can really specify. There is no pefect style (except a shoeless, chalkless, onsight free solo) so you do the best you can. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
IMO the hole count is possibly justified dependent on the quality of the climbing. A fantastic line full of difficult, aesthetic climbing can justify the use of holes on blank sections. No one ever repeated the line so we have no idependent opinions as to the quality of the climbing. Yet the route was trashed without this vital info (we are all just blowing smoke as Largo says).
Did the FA party expect accolades or are they just upset their route/effort was dissed without any real inspection? Maybe both?
Did the community at the time trash their effort without giving it a chance? Did the FA party charge in and do a route without establishing themselves first and give it a controversial name creating animosity? Maybe both?
One thing for sure IMO, anyone who trashes/craps on someone elses gear, uses violence, smashes hangers instead of trying to cleanly remove bolts, or chops a route without climbing it first is motivated by ego, not service to the climbing community.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:32pm PT
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Yes "us jews" own all the banks and control the "world governemnt." Me, my uncle Saul, gave me Iran (cause I was not nice to my sister and used my yumaka as a frisbee) and I got some work to do there next month.
hahaha
Jeff, two questions:
1. Is your middle name really Apple?
2. If so, does it chap yer ass that Gyneth Paltrow named her girl kid Apple?
What's the current +/- on Ammon's second ascent in a push?
I say 22:30.
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