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WBraun
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 02:46pm PT
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“This science of ethics was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the ascensionists understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore this science appears to be lost."
The eternal rules exist to guide us to the proper understanding that will transcend our mundane limitations and faults to establish the eternal laws which guard the absolute truth.
Powers that we are witnessing at hand on this subject matter go far beyond the people involved here; there is no room for mundane speculation.
Thus we see now the all too familiar hypocrisy and quarrel that abounds in our present age.
Best wishes for the continuation of the debate and the second ascent :-)
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 28, 2005 - 05:40pm PT
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deuce4-
Responding to “’If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt.’ --but earlier you mentioned that you enhanced hook placements.”
Your confusion probably stems from the fact that what I meant by “enhanced” is not what “enhanced” is generally taken to mean. On the Sea, for instance, enhanced meant some kind of hole drilled diagonally behind a flake or into a sloping ledge (at a critical point on Hook or Book, on a 45 degree slope!). Such holes were designed to take the point of a taper-ground Chouinard/Black Diamond Cliffhanger. On Wings of Steel “enhanced” means that we chipped out a crystal at the back of a ledge so the point of a Leeper Narrow could rest at the back the ledge. Typically only a single crystal was chipped out, although on some larger ledges where there was a crust of decomposing rock we chipped out several crystals in order to find solid rock. Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
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jeff benowitz
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 07:01pm PT
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Whoa M smith. In a lot of people's book every time the drill touches the rock it should be in the hole count. Now I'm starting to understand the "situation." I know it might be semantics, but if the placement wasn't good enough to use without using a drill, than by definition it should be in the hole count. Just cause you made a body weight hole, instead of a ½ inch bolt doesn’t change the count. Sure it makes it “harder” and scarier to chip a hook instead of drill a bolt, but either way you are bringing the rock down to your level. How many times did the drill come out? Be honest, or is the number to high to remember? Sorry for lambasting ya John, tar and feather the blokes for all I care.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Oct 28, 2005 - 07:13pm PT
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this thread sounds like when someone tells their girlfriend "what I meant to say was"... when its already way too late to say anything that is gonna mean anything
was that unintelligible?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 28, 2005 - 07:25pm PT
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It's commendable that the "enhanced" flakes look natural, but of course, that's what Jardine was doing when he was pushing the free variant up on the Nose, and that wasn't acceptable by the norm then, either, never has been.
In aid, of course, it has always been an occasional technique to break off a loose flake or something to make a placement, but think about it en masse, and you may be coming closer to the questions people were raising at the time.
You can be sure that Grossman never "enhanced" any of his hooks without acknowledging it on the lower pitches of Jolly Rodger, steeper and just as thin--the epitome of difficult natural hooking (emphasis on natural).
Don't get me wrong, I am sure Wings of Steel involves terrifying hooking ptiches, but there's a big difference in the experience if you have a drill and/or chisel by your side and are willing to enhance to your level.
In aid, many people seem to mistake the end result with the experience itself. The purpose of the resulting number, for example, is really only to warn your friends what they can expect, not to announce to the world of your prowess.
I always thought that the left side of El Cap slab will go free someday.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 28, 2005 - 08:01pm PT
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Madbolter1 says:
“We did NOT use bat hooks on the route. At all. Period.”
Unambiguous.
Later Madbolter1 says:
“The Meyers/Reid guide is correct about the bathooks connecting to Aquarian Wall on the last pitch. {SNIP} So, what I have always meant when I talk about "the route" is the slab.”
I guess it's how you define the route.
MSmith avoids bathooks with a second definition of the route:
“There are no bat hooks in Wings of Steel throughout the Great Slab or the crack systems above the Overseer Roof. Wings of Steel comes to an end 50 feet right of Aquarian Wall.”
MSmith states:
Your confusion probably stems from the fact that what I meant by “enhanced” is not what “enhanced” is generally taken to mean.
Those pesky definitions.
Even though I think it would be cool if WoS were a maligned but masterful testpiece, I can see why some have a problem understanding and accepting the claims of the FA party.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 28, 2005 - 10:07pm PT
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Wow, a lot has happened while I was at work today! I won't be responding at this point, though, as it's the Sabbath. So that people don't think I'm pushing my religion in everybody's faces, I'll cast it this way: Rather than to be accused of inconsistency again, "Soooo, you won't CLIMB on the Sabbath, but you'll post debate ABOUT climbing on the Sabbath..." I'll forego responding to some of the ridiculous, uncharitable posts until sometime on Sunday evening. 'Till then....
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Russ Walling
Social climber
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
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Oct 28, 2005 - 10:15pm PT
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I really hate to do it.... this thread is already taking half a day to load, but:
WosS FAist writes: Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
This is the fatal flaw with the "method". If I can't tell which flakes have been ENHANCED, then am I allowed to ENHANCE my hook placements in order to do the route? How do I know I am even doing the correct route? Do I need to spend full days out on lead with a lupe just to get a legitimate ascent? Here is where it is total bullsh#t. I have been hosed by missing bat hook holes on a route and ended up bailing, only to come back to finish the route with a new topo showing the holes. It appears the same will happen to any fool who tries to do a second of WofS, and a good style ascent just may be impossible. Definining the degree of ENHANCEMENT is a silly game. The difference between we only cleaned a little with the drill, and drilling a hole is minimal in my book. I think I actually would prefer a hole with something in it.
Side note: Even though I dig Slater and knew him pretty well, his failures on your route are not giving me a lot of insight into the difficulty. Rob was a very good wall climber, but not the best around. He had problems with other routes and multiple tries to ascend, but, and after this new info, maybe it was not a Slater problem at all on this particular route. It just might have been the route itself.
Double side note™™™:
Really glad you guys are around for this dialog. Much appreciated!
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Oct 28, 2005 - 11:14pm PT
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Hey, Fish, it's the Sabbath™.
Hush thy self.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Oct 29, 2005 - 02:10am PT
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I work for the government. so when I say somethin is becoming clear, you can bet your ass it is geting murkier...like this thread....
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 29, 2005 - 01:36pm PT
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Let's summarize:
We're talking about a route put up in an era long ago, which was controversial at the time, but since then had faded into obscurity along with its original controversy, until recently.
We have two of the original ascentionists in the conversation.
One of them, MSmith seems quite honest and sincere, but also completely oblivious to the fact that the repeated use of chiseled hooks and the extensive use of bolts on a El Cap first ascent may have caused some consternation among the experienced practicioners of the sport at the time.
The other, madbolter1, seems indignant that the world hasn't been astonished as his prowess of his ascent of El Cap, and considers any critique on his route as "ridiculous and uncharitable," and has dissed in so many words some of the top aid climbers in history, namely Jim Bridwell and Jim Beyer, presumably to enhance his own reputation of being more skilled than them. By repeatedly bringing in his religious beliefs (which in reality has nothing to do with this conversation except that it may have added a week to their time on the route), he seems to make some connection of his religion with the public perception of his route, feeling persecuted on both counts (perhaps showing a hint of a Jesus complex?).
Because it seems apparent that the ascentionists haven't climbed too many routes other than those that have a significant "reputation" of top difficulty, which they repeated with what seems like the sole purpose to gain credibility for themselves and for their ability to publicly announce to the world that their route was harder, it seems difficult to ascertain that these climbers are climbing purely for their own "personal experience" as claimed. In fact, it seems like the sole motive is to convince the world that Wings of Steel was somehow ahead of its time, despite the fact that they admit enhancing the natural features considerably.
Finally, at the time and perhaps even more so now, the standards of aid climbing has been to climb massive walls in as pure style as possible, meaning using natural features; if no natural features are available, to use a rivet rather than chipping, bathooking, chisseling, or otherwise altering the stone in a short-term manner of thinking, a fact these ascentionists seem completely unwilling to accept, even 20 years after the event.
The first ascentionist's lifelong insistence on promoting their actions as a high standard simply because of the resulting difficulty of their manufactured route seems to suggest that they therefore feel deserving of accolades as pioneers, instead of what it finally really appears to be, a trio of inexperienced climbers trying to make a name for themselves.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2005 - 02:50pm PT
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"...a trio of inexperienced climbers..."
Who is the third climber?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Oct 29, 2005 - 03:53pm PT
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Uhhh, typo?
BTW, I was at the Supertopo launch-party, and If this isn't the best thread yet, it's close.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2005 - 05:06pm PT
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" Uhhh, typo? "
OK, that makes sense. This thread had blown up and I haven't read every single post so I thought maybe I missed some inside information on a reticent third member of the Wings of Steel party.
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wildone
climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
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Oct 29, 2005 - 05:09pm PT
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c'mon 200!
I agree, although I've only been lurking for 3 years or so.
Carry on...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Oct 29, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
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Hmm, actually, I always thought there was a third person up there. Maybe because I couldn't imagine the gazillion loads of gear only supplying two people.
What gets me in all this, is all the years I would say, "Hey, well, I'm sure it's a hard route," and somewhat defending their right to have climbed it (in principle), even though I was always aware that the style wasn't the best.
But after seeing the motivations and pitiful self-righteousness of one of the first ascentionists, things seem different to me.
Maybe I'm just getting crusty...
Then again, maybe it's just a big troll, and madbolter1 is someone else posing as a arrogant dimwit. One can only hope.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 29, 2005 - 08:09pm PT
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Oh, oh, OH!
So you guys only enhanced the hook placements a little bit!
Then perhaps we need a new rating system?
E1 - only one crystal removed and you can't tell which one
E2 - two crystals removed but you might be able to tell if you use a magnifying glass
E3 - drill tip used to enhance, but you probably won't notice because we never mentioned it
Etc.
Damn, just when things seemed to start cooling down, they get really interesting! I can see three stars outside, so the Sabbath has ended here, at least in the Eastern Time Zone.
I am Praise the LORD and Pass the Pitons Pete,
and I climb, type and even drink on Sundays.
P.S. Glad to hear you guys are cool with wine. I brought a couple nice bottles of shiraz on my last two-week El Cap ascent, and of course the extra water to fight dehydration on the wall.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 29, 2005 - 08:14pm PT
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This is fun
Something from earlier makes me wonder about the troll element, but surely they will address it.
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Oct 29, 2005 - 08:34pm PT
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...we're listening...
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kevin Fosburg
Sport climber
park city,ut
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Oct 29, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
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It's interesting how this discussion goes on without ever seeming to resolve . I wonder if it is because, as some have asserted, aid climbing is not really climbing at all but just a means of mechanical hoisting albeit subject to various "ethical" (and ultimately arbitrary) considerations. Perhaps the crucial aspect is the use/non-use of a hammer to manipulate the medium. First and early ascenscionists enjoy a huge advantage before a route has gone clean. Perhaps hammer/drill users are simply splitting butt-hairs talking about difficulty. The earlier the ascent, the greater the false pride.
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