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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Escopeta,
my read on the Hammonds is different. I thought the government was lenient. these guys threatened the feds there. the feds there don't have any control other than to enforce the laws. that's their job, they didn't make the rule book. if the hammonds didn't like the rules of using OUR land, then they should not have used it. pretty simple don't you think?
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Lorenzo,
Your comment about not compartmentalizing and then further down stating that we need to hold people accountable seem to be in conflict. Did I misunderstand?
And yes, it is important to understand that a high percentage of citizens and virtually all elected officials embrace the expansion of government. That's not blame it's instructive in terms of how to move forward.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Hawkeye,
I have as much to gain from proper management of public lands as anyone. My concern is focused more on the fact that the government actively pursued land acquisition from citizens who otherwise didn't want to sell but were left with little choice simply because the government put the squeeze on those people through pulling their grazing rights (for no reason other than coercion) fencing off legal water rights, closing right of ways and easements. All of this leaves the citizens with two choices: fight the gov in court, or sell. Not just the Hammonds look at the history and other landowners.
I don't think the government should be actively acquiring land and I don't like the fact that gov is able to have the power to exercise the kind of strong arm tactics that would get frowned upon if followed by anyone else.
This is a case of the gov wanting that land and the hammonds not wanting to give it up. through actively engineering it with coercion, or via slow-walking other requests that the Hammonds made.
I'm a believer in the legal system (as I stated above) but I'm against the kind of concentrations of government power that supports this kind of action.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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My concern is focused more on the fact that the government actively pursued land acquisition from citizens who otherwise didn't want to sell but were left with little choice simply because the government put the squeeze on those people through pulling their grazing rights (for no reason other than coercion) fencing off legal water rights, closing right of ways and easements. All of this leaves the citizens with two choices: fight the gov in court, or sell.
no doubt that was done in the past, way, way back. but I guess I am looking for something more contemporary, like say that last 2-3 decades?
and if that were happening that's when you write your congressman and senator and bring it to the press. agree with you that if this were happening now, then that is government overreach. unless, it is for the greater good. Who defines that? tough call.
take Seattle. great place, I love it. but if they don't increase public transportation somehow, someway, it will turn into a big $hithole. that may mean that the government will have to try and buy some properties to build better mass transport. so while we switched the discussion from a rural area to an urban example, its still the same thing and things will happen.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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What would you propose be done about this #1 domestic terror threat?
There is nothing that you can do, if they don't break any laws. They benefit from the same laws that the rest of us do.
I think that they (the feds) ought to go down to Nevada and shoot every last one of Bundy's trespass cattle, though. I would like to assist. I like shooting stuff.
That one has not been resolved yet. I bet some of those jokers pointing rifles at BLM employees will be slowly arrested over the next 18 months.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Want to smoke pot, marry your cat, own a gun, start a new small business, send emails or surf the web in private? We are asked to prove why we need such dangerous freedoms.
What kind of cat?
Cougar. Duh!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Bundy & Co. is a group who wants their version of freedom and control, shown through protest, occupying recognized federal buildings, backed up with the not-so-subtle threat of use of force.
The FBI is a well regulated police force, people already hired, by us, the citizens. They are a long recognized arm of the law, across the entire country, in population centers and rural areas. They are enforcing already established and accepted codes (by most citizens), backed up with a proven record of negotiation when possible, and use of force when necessary.
Bundy & Co. are not a well regulated militia.
Edit: In the future, this will be viewed as historical truth.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Bundy & Co. are not a well regulated militia.
Edit: In the future, this will be viewed as historical truth.
lol, they demonstrated that when they requested supplies. :)
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Here's an article that first appeared in Portland's Oregonian, and then was picked up by Idaho's largest newspaper.
I agree with the article.
The Oregonian, Portland
It turns out there’s been a true patriot in Harney County, Oregon, all along. His name is Dave Ward.
When the armed militants arrived and occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters, they called themselves patriots and twisted a reading of the U.S. Constitution to suit their purposes. Among other things, they argued public lands never really belonged to all Americans and that the federal government had no legal standing to manage them.
But they should have had that conversation more fully with Ward, better known in Burns and around the county as Sheriff Dave, because it’s likely Ward could have set them straight — even though he’s no constitutional scholar and had, in a meeting before the occupation, told the self-proclaimed patriots their demands were entirely outside the law.
Ward revealed himself in 2014 in his application for the sheriff’s job. In it, he wrote: “I’ve spent many years of my life serving our country, stateside and abroad, to protect the Constitution and believe it is the sheriff’s responsibility to protect each person’s rights under the Constitution of the United States,” Les Zaitz of The Oregonian/OregonLive reported.
It’s the “each person’s rights” part that stands out. The rights of law-abiding citizens in Harney County and beyond were abridged through the month of January as the occupiers pled their hollow, dangerous case. Schools and roads were briefly closed. The peace was disturbed for weeks. And taxpayers are still paying hefty sums to law enforcement, working 24/7 under a difficult mandate in the face of armed occupiers: no bloodshed.
Few would be unmoved, then, when Ward appeared before reporters on Wednesday following the arrest of several ringleaders and the shooting death of one. The special agent in charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation spoke. So did the U.S. Attorney. Their messages were measured, brief, purposeful. Ward, a solidly built fellow whose ruddy complexion seems wrought by high desert winds, fought back tears. He was the man who, against the feds’ advice, had taken a face-to-face meeting with ringleader Ammon Bundy to offer a peaceful exit from the compound. He was the man who not once issued a threat against the occupiers and had calmly told Zaitz: “We have to rely on what’s in the hearts of others.” But the apprehension of occupiers on Tuesday — a strategic victory that broke the occupation — had “ended badly,” Ward said, because rancher Robert “LaVoy” Finicum was shot dead.
Haltingly, Ward amplified his message and ended it ruefully: “This has been tearing our community apart. It’s time for everyone in this illegal occupation to move on. It doesn’t have to be bloodshed in our community. If we have issues with the way things are going in our government, we have a responsibility as citizens to act on them in an appropriate manner. We don’t arm up and rebel. ... This can’t happen anymore. This can’t happen in America. And it can’t happen in Harney County.” The room broke out in applause as Ward walked off.
Ward grew up in Drain, a tiny timber town near the Umpqua River, and as a boy would ride a horse into the woods and camp and fish. Following high school graduation, he joined the U.S. Army, trained as a combat medic and shipped out to Somalia. He did a tour in Afghanistan. All told, he performed a 21-year run of service comprising active duty, the Oregon Army National Guard and the Army Reserves. In between, he took a job in a mill in Drain but, boxed in by it, took a job as a ranch hand in Lake County, where years later he’d become a corrections deputy. Always he carried with him his churchgoing ways and other values of his upbringing, including respect for the foundations of government, among them the U.S. Constitution.
The refuge occupation will likely be remembered as a brief Sagebrush Rebellion reprise, replete with central casting cowboys who spoke in we’ll-die-if-we-must heroics. It should instead be remembered for its true patriot, the man who exuded calm and courage as he fought effectively for citizen rights made plain by the Constitution: Dave Ward
http://www.idahostatesman.com/opinion/article57868203.html
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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"That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves."
-Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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+1 Fritz!
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Thanks for that Fritz.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Fritz...Thanks for that..I'll read it later..rj
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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A grand jury brought back felony charges against the Bundy brothers and 9 others today, and the preliminary hearing was cancelled as a result.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/federal_grand_jury_returns_ind.html
The indictments will be unsealed tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see if additional charges were returned.
<edit> some later information hints at 16 indictments. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.
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kattz
climber
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"take Seattle. great place, I love it. but if they don't increase public transportation somehow, someway, it will turn into a big $hithole. that may mean that the government will have to try and buy some properties to build better mass transport. so while we switched the discussion from a rural area to an urban example, its still the same thing and things will happen."
Another example of what overpopulation and overcrowding does.
Sometimes one just has to let it go, though, and relocate. Nothing is forever. Seattle will become a $ithole with or without government taking eminent domain, transport, etc.
Recently watched new Leviathan movie, it was quite good...about private house/land confiscation for the benefit of the church, by the corrupt government official in Russia (the property owner resists and ends up very poorly). Some things are just hopeless and one has to let go, move away and forget, even thought you know this is injustice. Leviathan, you can't fight it.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Andrew Kohlmetz, an attorney for arrested protester Jason Patrick, referred to the holdouts as "four idiots" at odds with his client's aims.
And what did he refer to his client as?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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A grand jury brought back felony charges... Lynch the ranchers! Poetic justice!
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