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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:34am PT
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I'm not doing any speculations.
It's all you guys doing the speculations and trying so damn hard to weld those speculations onto the researchers.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 28, 2011 - 11:34am PT
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whatever you believe about these things, here's the scenario suggested by the CIT:
yes, there was a 757 and it apparently crashed into the pentagon, but at the last moment it pulled up and over the building and went on to land at the nearby d.c. airport. there is a reluctant witness who reports seeing it fly over on the other side of the pentagon.
the CIT investigators are suggesting a devious jetliner flight coordinated with a missile and pre-planted explosives within the pentagon. the damage to the pentagon was to a newly remodeled, and largely unpeopled, area on the side opposite the secretary of defense's office.
the main contribution by the CIT has been to nail down eyewitnesses from the citgo station, including two off-duty washington, d.c., police officers, who told them quite positively that the plane passed overhead on the left side of the station (facing the pentagon), not the right side. why is that important? the downed light poles, some of which fell the wrong way (away from the pentagon), indicate a flight path which would have had to have been on the right side of the station. the implication is that charges were planted on the light poles to simulate being knocked down.
if you haven't read norman mineta's testimony to the 9/11 commission, check it out. you won't find it in the commission report, by the way, but it was given under oath and has been published widely. mineta, then secretary of transportation, was in the control bunker with cheney. a young aide kept coming in to apprise the vice-president of the hijacked plane approaching washington--it's 20 minutes out, 15 minutes, 10 minutes ... do the orders still stand? cheney, mineta said, whipped his head around and said, "of course the orders still stand!"
so tell us, all you believers-of-the-government out there, how YOU explain that? by what scenario would the vice-president of the united states be sitting on his butt allowing a hijacked airplane to approach closer and closer to the nation's capital, apprised of its progress every few minutes, and finally allowing it to crash into the pentagon? by what scenario would the fighter planes at andrews air force base, seconds away from the heart of washington, be sitting on the ground with 40 minutes of lead time instead of being out there buzzing the crap out of that 757 as it approached--20 minutes out, 15 minutes, 10 minutes ... ?
does anyone here believe it was out of concern for the poor victims of the hijacking, that the government would have sat there and allowed such an approach into protected airspace on the slim chance that they could persuade the supposed hijackers to give up and save the hundred-odd people in the airliner?
i'm sure that's what it was. no wonder they didn't scramble any fighters from andrews--that would only have enforced the hijackers' resolve. i'm sure they had a muslim holy man, trained in crisis management, attempting to dissuade the hijackers up until the very last second.
i shouldn't be suggesting this. it'll be in a news release next week.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 11:38am PT
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To truly critically think this issue you have to look at it from the other side- if what you are saying is true then flight schools, airport video, 1000s of witnesses, hijacker families, long historical trails, not to mention the complicity of every single person in government since then( Obama) and 10, 000's of other silent people.
Every time people bring up all the anomalies with the 9-11 story, this is the "proof" that people offer to show that it must have gone down the way the Official Story tells it.
You can can on it like clockwork.
Jaytee, you're an ass, we've already "proved" that. And I'm not going to rudely talk about you in the 3rd person in front of you. I'm going to point a finger right at your face and call you the names that you deserve, in the 1st person.
Nobody is more closed-minded than people like him, that have a fixed belief and refuse to look at evidence that contradicts their prejudices.
Remember asswipe, I was the one who posted the quote that supported your belief, and even underlined the exact sentence that gave your view credence. Then, pig-squealer, you had the audacity to tell me to read the sentence a "few times. Then again," as if I couldn't read or understand what it was I posted. What a jerk.
I told you flat out where you could go to see interviews of folks who said they saw something other than a 757. I'm not going to hold your hand and make you watch an hour-long video, when it is painfully obvious that YOU are the one who refuses to look at evidence that contradicts your prejudice. I'd call you a hypocrite, but that would give people like Bush a bad name.
Go ahead, tell me that "it couldn't possibly happen because Washington could never keep the secret." I, along with hundreds of thousands of people, including high-ranking officials in other governments, have called for a real investigation into what happened that day, and not the circus filled with stoolies that was the bumbling 9-11 Commission.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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k-man
People like Jaytee are just a waste of time.
Don't bother with him and just let him rant.
Don't let your emotions control you over this stuff ....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
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Thanks Werner, true stuff you speak.
We were talking the other day about how your mind becomes wired to react in certain ways to specific stimuli. For example, when somebody walks into a room that you love or hate, your mind goes down a pre-configured path that dictates how you feel. This is not pseudo science, this is a real physiological thing that happens. People must take an active roll in breaking the patterns that their minds have set up for them.
I find that when I talk to Right-wingers and other folks with closed minds, that my mind goes through these triggers. And it is a waste of good time and good energy that I should be otherwise fostering.
I posted "Some thoughts" in an attempt to graciously bow out of this debate and explain why I feel the way I do.
In Other News, it is a beautiful Sunday. I wish I were climbing, but instead will make the most of the precious hours of daylight ahead.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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No Ron
You're just plain wasting your time on your own.
Quit trying to blame others for your own faults .....
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 28, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
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I still want to see an experiment where they fly a plane into a replica of the pentagon.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
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Ron, I didn't say that talking to Right-wingers or folks with closed minds was a waste of time. Instead, I realized that it's a waste of good energy when my mind goes to these preconfigured thought patterns when it gets triggered in certain ways.
Big difference.
And Werner is right. Don't blame me for how you spend your time.
Have a nice one, ...
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 28, 2011 - 01:59pm PT
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We were talking the other day about how your mind becomes wired to react in certain ways to specific stimuli. For example, when somebody walks into a room that you love or hate, your mind goes down a pre-configured path that dictates how you feel. This is not pseudo science, this is a real physiological thing that happens. People must take an active roll in breaking the patterns that their minds have set up for them.
I like this, Kelly. I could only add that those patterns exist for the most part in our subconscious and few have learned how to access that Quagmire to take such an active roll. I think it scares the crap out of most people.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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I could only add that those patterns exist for the most part in our subconscious
Interesting Wayno. I was told that there's actual physical patterns that form. Either way, it is a new science, but intriguing.
ION, looks like Jaytee took down the post that offended me so. I guess I struck a chord with him...
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 28, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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Kelly, I'm not sure how it all works, but from a purely practical point of view, some methods have developed over the years to gain access to the Quagmire to make change for the better or worse. Hypnosis is one example, but there are many others and new ones still emerging. There is hope.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
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Kman- so what is your exact version of what occurred on 911.
Riley, what makes you think I have an exact version of what occurred on 9/11?
All I know is that I don't believe the Official Story, it glosses over too many FACTS that would be inconsistent with the story.
I am still waiting for somebody to super-impose the outline of a 757 on the over-sized image that monolith posted.
But then again, I think I know the reason none of you are willing to look at that--it would probably end up with you waving your arms and saying "Does Not Compute!"
"But k-man!! we have so many facts that the Gov't supplied us, that show the plane crashed there and that other planes took down the Trade Center towers. Look, a black box! Look, DNA. Look, cell-phone calls made from the airplanes [oops, ignore that...], look, molten steel burning at the World Trade Center weeks after the fires went out [oops, ignore that], look, Mineta's testimony under oath [hey, not in the 9-11 commission report, they ignored it, why don't you]."
Sheesh, SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF, you're getting good at it.
Only we're not in a Hollywood movie folks.
Oh damn you Riley, you got me going again...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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"May I speak your Honor?"
"Yes, go ahead please."
"You see, Sir, everybody inside and outside this courtroom knows that nobody in Washington is able to keep a secret. That, Sir, is the reason why we never tested the World Trade Center building debris for thermite, Sir.
...
Oh what was that you said, Sir, about the Gulf of Tonken??"
Riley, what I am saying is that there should be a full, transparent, in-depth inquiry into the events, the lead-up to, and the aftermath, of what happened on 9-11. The 9-11 Commission is a joke. They glossed over many facts, witness testimonies, physical evidence, and more. The commission was loaded with stoolies from the administration that prevented the real goings on from being disclosed and brought to light.
In short, I believe that there are still unidentified criminals at larger who either participated in or covered up the happenings of that day.
There, I answered your question. Now please answer one for me:
If the final 9-11 Commission Report contains one or more lies or untruths, would it sully for you the final conclusions made in the report?
Bonus question:
If the 9-11 Commission Report does contain lies or untruths, can you explain to me why that is OK?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 05:55pm PT
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Riley, I hate (love?) to tell you. That Popular Science article was torn to shreds by folks who did the math.
Then, PS tried to refute the findings, but it fell totally flat.
True.
But don't take my word for it, please do some of your own research.
EDIT:
Obviously folks do agree on how they fell because that is what many engineers figured out in the first few days...
Riley, these must be the guys you're talking about:
Engineers and Architects for 9/11 Truth
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 28, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
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You can find out how these groups are tied to other large globalist, and the media. It goes on and on, and it isn't just as simple as give me the facts. You need to dig for peieces of the puzzle, and take it back as far as you want. It will begin to explain a whole lot more than 9/11. That is the truth.
That's a whole new thread right there, but I hear ya, dude!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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"It wasn't a b52 that crashed into the World Trade Centres- it was a 757 full of jet fuel.
There is a huge difference.
How many thousands of pounds of jet fuel?"
No plane crashed into WTC Building 7, that's what the video that you watched twice addresses.
Did you catch the part where the official NIST story for the collapse of WTC Building 7 was "fires fueled by office furnature"? (minute 3:45)
Or, did you catch the part where the entire building was in free-fall for the first 100 feet?
Impressive office fires, yes? Or, lies?? Which is more likely?
Do you know how fast the jet fuel in the WTC towers burned out, and that jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel? You know, like the molten steel that was buried under the centers for WEEKS.
For me, this doesn't float.
It's OK if you want to ignore the anomalies, most people don't want to think about it.
Oh, and the 9-11 Commission was supposed to be independent of the WH administration, that's why I asked you to think more carefully about your response to my Yes/No question.
Kool-Aid bro. It's cheap and plentiful.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 28, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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ha, ok. No more Kool-Aid.
On jet fuel burning temperature (my emphasis):
"No scientist, engineer, or investigator has ever claimed that the steel support beams of the WTC melted from the fire. The heat of the fire did soften the steel that was exposed by the crash, making it more bendy and unable to support the full weight of the floors above. This happens long before the steel turns to liquid. This whole steel-melting argument is a strawman that the conspiracy theorists bring up every time in order to support their fantasies"
This from here: http://community.yourdiscovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/95010646/m/216104783
On jet fuel burning temps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel
On steel: Steel melts at around 1370 degrees C
Jet fuel is only hot enough to soften the metal.
Now that is odd, because there are photos (and eye witnesses) of melted steel. How did it get so hot to melt??
If you watch the entire video I posted, you will see samples of melted steel from WTC B7, which was caused by "office furniture fire."
OK, once again I'm gonna try and leave this one lay as it is.
Cheers...
EDIT:
Sorry, one last thing:
Your the guy trying to prove a wild conspiracy....not me..
I am not trying to prove anything other than to show why the Official Story does not hold water for me. I am asking for a real investigation, not a dummied-up one.
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