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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I already explained why - "Black Hawk Down" is why they didn't go in and the number of CIA personnel involved no doubt further contributed to the whole clusterf*#k as it wasn't a typical State installation. Again, you have an incredibly naive view of the world.
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John M
climber
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Because Benghazi isn't Afghanistan. Using a gunship in a country that we aren't fighting a war in could be construed as an act of war.
I have no doubt that every year some Ambassador somewhere complains that there isn't enough security at his embassy. Sometimes those complaints are back channel, and some times they are public. And every year some embassy gets more security and another one gets less. And sometimes our security efforts fail. It happens every year. Which is why 43 embassy personnel died up Bush's watch. The thing that you need to understand is that the party that keeps wanting to reduce the security budget is the GOP. The other thing that you need to understand is that we can't always use military assets. Unless of course you want WW3. Which is a distinct possibility. We nearly entered it during the Bush admin and the middle east is still a hot bed. It probably will be as long as they have oil. Russia wants it. China wants it, and we want it. Do you risk starting WW3 every time embassy personnel are attacked? No.. you don't. So that means sometimes embassy personnel die.
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John M
climber
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And if thats the case, then ALL foreign diplomats should evacuate TODAY!
Errr... I guess we should also pull all of our troops out of harms way too. And yes.. embassy personnel know that there job can be dangerous depending on what country they are in.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.
In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.
We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!
John
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Tell me again why anyone should vote for obama?
Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake.
Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices.
Because he got us out of Iraq.
Because he is winding down Afghanistan.
Because he believes in climate change.
Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.
Because he saved the auto makers.
Because he believes in the importance of government.
Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform.
Because he's universes better than the alternative.
Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.
Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.
Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim.
Any more questions ?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Yeah and what about
your mean democrat?
your modal democrat?
your standardly deviational democrat?
Do these really exist, or are they just some fleeting imaginary numbers?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Ive wanted us OUT of the ME and their OIL circle jerk.
Mitt Romney's gonna do that? Whoa, I missed that part.........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Again, incredibly naive. It's exactly the same naivety that has caused us grief in the Mideast again and again. It isn't Latin America and we don't control any aspect of and it's always a disaster when we attempt to act like we do.
Few political events in the region are not initiated by us and when large scale instabilities evolve such as those we are seeing from the 'Arab Spring' our hand is forced - we have to respond or risk being sidelined in world events in ways that further marginalize our role in the region.
Now I know that's a big concept for your simple world, but the reality is that it's a shifting landscape and no one - not us, not Russia, not China, and not even Iran - knows quite what an appropriate response for their interests looks like. Everyone is winging it.
About the only thing you can say for sure is that Bush administration's purge of Mideast analysts, native speakers, and HUMINT resources from our intelligence services is now absolutely killing us.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Your average republican:
Willard Romney?
Grover Norquist?
"We don't need someone who can think. We need someone with enough digits to hold a pen."
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Farouk you sound as irrational as my brother.
Crawl back under your bridge anonymous troll.
Oh and...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, he "hates America and the West" because that's another desperate fantasy rightwing nutjobs tell themselves. They are afflicted by overwhelming feelings of persecution, are manipulated like so much political oragami, and as a whole can't be the brightest bulbs in the box given how often they vote against their own economic interests by simply waving flags in their faces.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Section 1: Legislative power vested in Congress
sorry it was'nt ford it was the auto unions.
carry on! i think there should be a thread about the constitution.
i don't care whom u vote for just as long as ur a constitutionalist.. :)
Philo there are three things americans should have
SOAP BOX
BALLET BOX
AMMO BOX
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Your reasoning, survival, leaves a bit to be desired. I could reply point-by-point, but I have neither the time, nor that ability to write in such a way as others would care to read. Nonetheless:
Because he is willing to give gays a fair shake. Agreed.
Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.
Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.
Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.
Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.
Because Osama is dead, and he made the call.Agreed, and he deserves a lot of credit for that.
Because he saved the auto makers.Disagree. HE paid his UAW allies at the expense of everyone else. What did he do, for example, to save Ford? Nothing. Chapter 11 without the governmental robbery of the secured debt probably would have given us a better automaker, but since that's a counter-factual, we'll never know.
Because he believes in the importance of government.So does every other person running for public office. The issue isn't the importance of government, the issue is the proper role and limits of government. He arrogates to himself a rather large amount of executive power that, IMHO exceeds that given in the Constitution.
Because he passed our first meaningful healthcare reform. I agree that it's meaningful, and that it's a change. I strongly disagree that it's an improvement, and it appears that a majority of Americans do, too.
Because he's universes better than the alternative. No comment needed.
Because the alternative is Mitt Romney and right wing religious teabaggers.See above.
Because he believes in tolerance and blacks and hispanics and asians.Are you saying that Romney does not believe in tolerance? More amazingly, do you say that Romney disbelieves in Blacks, Hispanics and Asians? As in he thinks the don't exist? Or do you mean that he disbelieves their ability to succeed? If anything, it's the Democrats that disbelieve in the ability of Blacks and Hispanics to succeed, because the Democrats' policies have a foundation of racist disbelief in the ability of those groups to succeed. The contention regarding Asians is even more absurd. The Democrats have perpetrated racial discrimination -- in the name of ending racial discrimination -- that had as one of its primary effects a strong anti-Asian outcome. That's nothing new for the Democrats. After all, FDR ordered the Japanese-Americans confined to domestic concentration camps. If the University of California Democrats had their way, there would be far fewer Asians enrolled in the UC system.
Because he doesn't want to put American citizen muslims on hate lists because they're muslim. Neither does Romney. He does, however, recognize that currently America's biggest terrorist threat comes from Muslim terrorists.
Any more questions ? None needed.
John
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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That's why most federal tax dollars go to support overwhelmingly republican states - because they're so damn manly and self-reliant.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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This Republican, at least, feels strongly that we should not be politicizing the Benghazi issue. Unfortunately, both parties reverted to their public personae, and blamed the other for the tragedy. The more I find out about it, the more it sounds like the inevitable result of a government run by people. People are imperfect, and sometimes make mistakes. Dividing responsibility between the CIA and State makes mistakes more likely. End of story.
In fact, to its credit, this administration has, by and large, pursued the same foreign policy that its predecessors -- Republican and Democrat -- have done, just with different rhetoric. Frankly, I think the far left has a much greater beef with the Obama foreign policy (as opposed to its rhetoric) than do most Republicans.
We should be united in condemning this attack. Instead, we're backbiting and trying to score points by showing the "other side's" weakness. Here I thought we should be on the same side. Enough!
John
I kinda see where you're coming from, John. But I have to disagree!
4 people are DEAD! Wrap your head around that first. About 30 made it out o.k.
Was this a preventable attack/assault? Yes.
It wasn't like the Embassy assaults in Africa earlier. They had intel that people were scouting this position! They asked for help!
It isn't going too far to call BS on this op! This did not have to happen.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans. The difference is that Obama wants others to pay for those choices, even if they oppose them.
Well, that's complete bullsh#t. It's simply an exercise in equal rights - all employed women get the same baseline benefits regardless of their employer. End of story. There are cults and people all across the nation which do not believe in medical care of any kind - if they become employers are you going to speak out for their right to withhold all medical care?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Sorry JE, I'll just pop out the first couple. BTW that was a helluva response for someone that doesn't have the time!
Your reasoning too, leaves something to be desired.
*Because he believes women can make their own healthcare choices. So does Romney and the Republicans.
It's not just about who pays and you know it. The right wing has wanted to take away a woman's choice for safe and legal abortion ever since RoeVWade. Deny that?
*Because he got us out of Iraq. The jury's still out on that, I'm afraid.
Agreed, but he sure got us a helluva lot further out than George did.
*Because he is winding down Afghanistan.No evidence that Romney would not.
Except his comments about not committing to a timeline and showing the bad guys our hand.
*Because he believes in climate change.So do I, and, most likely, most other Republicans. The issue is what to do about it, and whether the unilateral decisions of the Obama EPA represent the proper balance between marginal cost and marginal benefit.
Well I don't buy what I hear from the right about it, how's that?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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FAROUK HATES GAYS AND MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Yeah, four people are dead - maybe the CIA shouldn't have been playing fast and loose with security. Oh and you'd hope that a CIA operation gathering intel on the current on-the-ground situation would have been way further out ahead of the situation to begin with. It wasn't State's failure so much as the CIA's and the fact that the CIA guys got blindsided so badly probably only heightened concerns of yet another "Black Hawk Down" fiasco and led to a lot of decision-making paralysis.
And'four people' are dead? Hey, four people die in Iraq and Afghanistan every week due to W's mind-addling, but most excellent Mideast adventure.
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