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Nohea
Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
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Dec 31, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
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I have lost my faith in mankind, that's for sure but last year I started a debate club at my high school and now each month when I go to the tournaments, seeing, listening to these kids, well it's great and it gives me hope but what % of HS kids are into debate? <1?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Dec 31, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
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Worth reposting since it's one of the most liberal sounding things Ron has ever posted! Mexicans have feelings too!!!
lots of guessing on both sides isnt there...
Yup..
Do i believe MEN can relate a story accurately over such a length of time as to lend any point by point Factual reference of any religions book? No,, as stories cant even be related accurately over a week between 10 of em.
Not to say they al dont contain facts, but whimsy is an un-identifiable ting in the hearts of those that wrote them. So we get all manner of interpretations.
But even the natural people of this land , long ago, held dear their beliefs and their Gods before any Euro-or modern influence. Much of this was just acceptable societal rules. but they had those beliefs, and in many ways resemble some of the far eastern beliefs of a soul and its passage into the spirit world. Did my Choctaw relatives have contact with far eastern people LONG LONG ago?? Or did they come up with those similar conclusions exclusively ?
Theres as much mystery left in science as religion..
Personally, i just keep tailoring the factual evidence of evolution into a less strict interpretation of my own God..After all he is a personal choice..And i can live the best of both of those "worlds", while chucking the non sense and miss interpretation.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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Nohea....I never had any faith in mankind because I don't have "faith" period. I would rather have my beliefs formed by a logical interpretation of the evidence at hand.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Dec 31, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
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I never had any faith in mankind because I don't have "faith" period.
Only one speaking or thinking from inside the religious framework defines "faith" in this manner.
Food for thought: Do you really want to surrender the basic word "faith" that is so ingrained in our culture and language (e.g., our music, our literature even outside supernaturalisms) to the religions and religionists which are falling out of favor anyways?
Change the conversation. Take a page from Frank Luntz or George Lakoff. Anytime you want you can change it up, and define "faith" in proactive, progressive secular terms (meaning trust, for better or worse, good or bad, blind or empirical, whatever). Easy to do if (a) you're not in church, (b) you don't buy into religious framing to begin with.
Outside religion, do I have "faith" - an empirical, evidence-based "faith" - in my rope and sit harness? Yes.
Did I let go-B or Jerry Falwell or any supernaturalist define my definition or employment of "faith" in crazy religious or theological terms? Hell no.
Faith, like belief, is just too good a word to let loose. Or to surrender to any ol time supernaturalist, ol time dogma, or ol' time institution. To do so, in terms of strategy, if that's your interest at all (and I think it is), either in regard to communications or to social movements - currently underway to push beyond religions and theologies of old - would be counterproductive.
The bogey here is "blind faith" or "religious faith" - not "faith" in general. There. I said my piece.
Just think about it.
And happy new year! :)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 31, 2012 - 09:43pm PT
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All of the knowledge in the universe isn't going to help us if we keep breeding at current rates. Some of the natural resources such as oil are now so expensive that many third world countries totally missed the boat and will probably remain third world.
There are other things, such as copper. At one point, you could get a fairly close estimate of a country's GDP just by their copper consumption.
The U.S. has already gone through much of its natural resources. I can make a good argument that we became a dominating force in the world simply due to our abundant natural resources, such as oil. We have more oil than any other country on the planet other than Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, we have already used 190 billion barrels, which is most of it. We won WWII simply because we had oil and the Germans and Japanese didn't. They tried to get it, but barely failed.
Many nations have exceeded the carrying capacity and live in endless poverty. The planet actually has an expiration date as far as resources go.
Taken in this context, population growth vs. carrying capacity is a far worse problem than ignorance.
The wiki page is fascinating. Population growth rate is slowing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_growth
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 31, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
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I think these morons are skipping science classes to study ancient mythology (i.e., the bible).
Their idiocy is mind boggling. And these simpletons spew there religious propoganda to each other, and they all feed on the crap.
It's sad, because religion and science are not mutually exclusive. Though I take the bible with a monster grain of salt, it's amazing the similarity between the big bang theory and "let there be light."
The meek shall inherit the earth. What God means is the morons will breed like hampsters and the earth will become over-run with religious idiots. The second Dark Age is beginning.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 31, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
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After actually watching some of the lectures that HFCS posted, I thought that religion and science could co-exist.
In reality, they can't.
I suppose that they could get along, though.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
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That's what Galileo thought.
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go-B
climber
Hebrews 1:3
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Dec 31, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 31, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
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Jerry Coyne's argument is very clear. They can't get along.
I know Christian scientists who do good work in geosciences and from what I can tell, they take the whole Genesis thing as allegorical.
Belief without evidence doesn't work. End of story.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 31, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
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Wener, you are incredibly stupid
you QUOTED my post in YOUR reply post, go back and LOOK at it, idiot wind
and NOW you say you were not replying to me
did you get dropped on your head as an infant?
you really are childlike
and knock off your stalking sh#t or I will be all over your lost in the forest crap
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
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you really are childlike
Thanks for the compliment.
You should become childlike too instead of an old worn out sourpuss that you've become ......
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 31, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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I find it frustrating that the anti-evolution tact has gained so much ground.
I was trained by three of the great evolutionists of the last century, and consider myself very lucky to have encountered them. I recently reviewed some of the words of one of them, Francisco Ayala, who was an ordained Catholic Priest.
I find it odd that people who have very superficial understanding of things, who have not studied them in great depth, discard words of people who've spent their lives in study, simply out of hand.
He says:
With Catholics, I take out the Pope's address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in October 1996 where he endorses evolutionary teachings.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp961022.htm
Pope John Paul II:
In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.......
.....It is important to set proper limits to the understanding of Scripture, excluding any unseasonable interpretations which would make it mean something which it is not intended to mean. In order to mark out the limits of their own proper fields, theologians and those working on the exegesis of the Scripture need to be well informed regarding the results of the latest scientific research.....
Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.* In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.
....The theory proves its validity by the measure to which it can be verified. It is constantly being tested against the facts; when it can no longer explain these facts, it shows its limits and its lack of usefulness, and it must be revised......................
From the Vatican, October 22, 1996, John Paul II
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Would the Bible be more believable if it had talked about Martians?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Gay martians are in it with the aliens.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I am still astonished by the concept that the country goes to war, and people expect that there will be no personal financial sacrifice....none.
We can go about our business as though nothing is happening.
In fact, two wars.
Nobody has to pitch in, in any way.
<shaking my head>
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Amerika the Intolerant. Ignorance is always relative and never absolute.
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Degaine
climber
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Ken M wrote:
I am still astonished by the concept that the country goes to war, and people expect that there will be no personal financial sacrifice....none.
We can go about our business as though nothing is happening.
In fact, two wars.
Nobody has to pitch in, in any way.
I'm just a surprised as you, Ken. Especially given the Bush administration, Republican, and right-wing rhetoric and, well, dishonesty that got us in to each war. Not to mention their false criticisms of the left for not supporting the troops and not being patriotic all the while requiring no sacrifice from anyone and putting the wars on the credit card.
Republican lip-service to being fiscally responsible is truly Orwellian, and those individuals who gobble it up (many on this forum) are part of the ignorant to which donini is referring to.
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