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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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I've not kept up with ST over the holidays but feel compelled to make a point or two on this thread since it is a subject of personal, spiritual and academic interest to me for over thirty years.
But first of all Philo, I want to express my strong sympathy toward you and your wife for what must be one of the most heart wrenching experiences of your lives.
The Utube link of vintage photographs is outstanding and beautiful and I urge everyone to view it.
The title of the thread is, of course, provocative by design and sets into action plenty of rash judgements, but for much of the world the history of this conflict remains shrouded in prejudice and propaganda. I can understand Scabang's methodology in reaching back in (modern) history, even if I think it is unnecessarily alienating.
I am a Christian. Not long after my conversion, while in college, I believe God revealed a shallow prejudice toward Arabs in my being while I was standing in a retail store check-out line. Behind me was a Saudi. I then took the step to introduce myself and over a period of weeks came to be included in the social fabric of a large group of Middle Eastern Muslim Students, including Palistinians. I observed their worship every Friday night and dialoged late into the evenings on the subjects of religion and politics. I cannot express what a positive, powerful, endearing experience that was for me.
I just want to make some important distinctions. When we sight a cliff, we are able to separate the paths of choss from patina, crack from groove, polish from grit. In such a complex subject as this, the starting place is to identify features and pathways which present access and ascent.
1. Ancient Israel should be distinguished from modern Zionism. The term "Israel" is very worthy of an in-depth exegesis, Genesis through Revelation. It won't wash to ignorantly justify atrocities by glibly quoting Gen 12:3 (I will bless those who bless you ("Israel")and curse those who curse you). Jesus has strong, trumping condemnations for those who justify cruelty and injustice on the basis of "religious grounds."
2. Western Christians who often cite purely theistic affinities for supporting Zionist goals should recognize that many, even most, modern Zionists, are, in fact secularized atheists and agnostics.
3. Speaking again to Christians, we should be careful to note the inclusion of Arabs among the early Christians (Acts 2:11), as indeed there are Arab Christians today.
4. We need to distinguish between the widely varied nationalities, cultures, histories and hopes of modern Muslims, recognizing it is not at all homogenous. edit: similarly, Judaism.
5. We should recognize the defining role of revenge, hatred, every kind of evil prejudice, greed, and ethnic/religious pride to nearly every facet of the discussion. It has been within the power of modern Israel to initiate and extend educational, economic and medical "peace incentives," but we have not seen this. Similarly, we in America should own up to our historical complicities and at least present a searching and fair-minded national soul.
Much shame and no easy answers my friends. Personally, I'm still looking skyward for the return of the Messiah, hoping that "redemption draweth nigh,"
Bruce Adams
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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Alright, break it up, move on...nothing to see.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Bruce, while you post is beautiful and true, it may be inappropriate to people like me.
I hold no grudges towards Arabs, but I do question the motives of SOME Zionists...some.
It has little to do with the current conflict though IMO.
Nice thoughts on your part though. I mean that.
Hey Chris, is she a Zionist? Me likee.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
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Thank you Bruce for your kind and intelligent words. It really choked me up.
And yes my wife lost friends and family in the last 5 days!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Thanks Blue--no personal missiles intended amid this tough subject. My comments are admittedly general and incremental.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
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come on, philo, bruno, moosie, etc., after a YEAR of rocket attacks, including over 200 in just two weeks after a "truce" ended (note that hamas never stopped firing rockets throughout the truce), what response would you condone? tell me, what should the israelis have done? nothing? what, do you think hamas would have gotten bored? seen the error of their ways? decided money spent on rockets and anti-semitic children's tv programming would be better spent on building hospitals or improving infrastructure? ok, you don't like israel's response...tell us, then, what should they have done?
and where was your precious un or eu or the media during the past year? actually, where were YOU? your silence on the hamas rocket attacks and your current outrage at israel's attempts to stop the attacks is, to say the least, curiouser and curiouser...one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis...or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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Bookworm, Why not try to understand what provoked the rocket attacks? Do you think that this is all just one sided? No truce has ever been completely trouble free, from both sides, and to punish the many for the acts of the few is foolish.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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John, it was one-sided, even Egypt and the UN secretary admit that (as well as just about every other world leader).
They have to go publicly and say that Israel should have constraint though for political purposes, which everyone (including them) knows is bullshit rhetoric.
Hamas went too far and is being dealt with. It's unfortunate for the civilians caught in the middle though.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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I have always opposed violence and the actions of Hamas, thank you.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
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What do you mean Jeff statements presented in Israeli History X are as recent as 2001.
Like this telling little gem by Sharon in 2001 and I quote
"Everytime we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that...
I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America and the Americans know it.
What happened in the following seven years to soften this long held dream and agenda of Zionism?
Author:
bookworm
Social climber
From: Falls Church, VA
come on, philo, bruno, moosie, etc., after a YEAR of rocket attacks, including over 200 in just two weeks after a "truce" ended (note that hamas never stopped firing rockets throughout the truce), what response would you condone? tell me, what should the israelis have done? nothing? what, do you think hamas would have gotten bored? seen the error of their ways? decided money spent on rockets and anti-semitic children's tv programming would be better spent on building hospitals or improving infrastructure? ok, you don't like israel's response...tell us, then, what should they have done?
and where was your precious un or eu or the media during the past year? actually, where were YOU? your silence on the hamas rocket attacks and your current outrage at israel's attempts to stop the attacks is, to say the least, curiouser and curiouser...one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis...or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
They could have ended the Illegal occupation and quit annexing the best of the Palestinian land for settlement development. They could have allowed the Palestinians dignity and justice. These options would go vastly farther towards peace than all the weapons of mass destruction that Israel possesses and hammers the imprisoned Palestinians with, which is quite obviously NOT working. And never will.
or that you generally support a group with a long history of violence, including bomb attacks that target civilians, including children...please, persuade me otherwise
You support Israel and the Jews have a far longer history of violence to "The Others.
What is the difference.
.one might infer that you support arab violence against israelis.
Bookworm have you bothered to actually read any of my post? Or do you just read into them?
Nothing I have ever said condones violence on either side. My saying I understand the plight of the Palestinians is merely the equivalent of the chanted mantra of Israel has a right to defend itself. What's the difference?
When I say "Never again" I mean never again to anyone. When the Israelis say it they mean never again to them.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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And Blew, EVEN FATTRAD hasn't and can't refute the statements in Israeli History X.
Why are you so desperate to try? You look foolish and ignorant trying.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:16pm PT
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Hey Blew, this is from your posted link of Ben Gurion.
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them".
Speech in 1937, accepting a British proposal for partition of Palestine which created a potential Jewish majority state, as quoted in New Outlook (April 1977)
Again where is the propaganda in presenting their own words.
This people said these things. The truth often hurts but where is the distortion?
Do you need me to pick apart your links sentence by sentence for you so you can understand?
If you had a shred of historical knowledge I figure you would think the besieged citizens of Stalingrad should have been more severely punished by the Nazis for sneaking food, medicine and materiel over the frozen ice which kept the entire city from starving to death and falling into German hands. You would have wanted them punished because after all they were not citizens or even humans they were damned dirty communists.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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Philo, do you agree that Gurion statement that, " We must expel the Arabs and take their place" is untrue?
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them".
What's the problem with that statement?
EDIT: If you like that link so much, I wonder why you don't post more quotes from it....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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No! He said those things to a world stage only after his more private statements were made public. It was in his interest as it has been in the state of Israel's interest to lie to the world about their true intentions.
Not even Fattrad can refute that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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So they didn't 'lie' about the other quote you posted? Aren't the Zionists supposed to control all that media?
Do you have a valid link verifying Gurion actually publicly said that about Arabs?
"No! He said those things to a world stage "
I'll need proof of that, everything I see says otherwise.
From Philo's new favorite link...
We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on (14 May 1948)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:40pm PT
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I should also point out you're getting pretty far off topic with all this rhetoric from a largely different time and mindset.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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Then open your eyes.
Apparently the last eight years of the Bush administration has left you unable to recognize a lie.
Really do you think 2001 is ancient history in terms of rhetoric?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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Bluering, When you combine it with the knowledge of Israel's historic practices of tactics designed to get people to give up their vision, such as depriving them of water, then you can start to see the hidden meanings.
They are saying that no one will tell them what to do, period. Including continuing their admitted program of having a greater Israel. They just try to say that they will not use force, then they use all kinds of underhanded tactics in the name of defending themselves. They say "Your cousin is a terrorist, , then we will bulldoze your house" is just one type example. There are plenty of others. It is designed to break the will of a people so that they will capitulate to anything.
What happens is that a powerless people resort to guerrilla/terrorist tactics. And a never ending cycle is begun.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 31, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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John, why doesn't Egypt help them?
Why do Egyptian border guards regularly shoot Palestinians crossing?
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