Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Just a reminder JohnE, much of the looting started after the police tried to break them up with tear gas.
I wonder what would happen in Oregon if riot clad police showed up in force. Would something start. My guess is that it would. One side or the other would start it.
That's why leaving them as a self-supporting prison camp is such a good idea.
I should also add that I experienced plenty of tear gas as a student at Berkeley from 1969-73, and whether white or black, the presence of riot police tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. To my knowledge, only one person was killed by law enforcement in Berkeley -- James Rector, who was white, but those shot were a much higher number.
I also found it ironic then that all the national attention was on the white students shot at Kent State. At least there was a mob potential there. The massacre at Jackson State, where law "enforcement" shot out every window on the side of a women's dormitory, and killed two black men with buckshot, got ignored. I understand how mobs inspire panic, which could make the Kent State shootings something other than premeditated murder.
Jackson State started with, allegedly, about 100 people throwing rocks at white motorists and interfering with firefighters, but the shootings occurred at a different part of campus. Evidence suggests that, at the time of the shooting, there were more LEO's present than members of the crowd they were allegedly controlling. In those days, I guess the MSM found a police killing of a white person big news; that of a black not so.
At least that double standard in press coverage has lessened, but that's also beside the point. It takes much greater restraint to keep riot police away from a large, angry crowd in a highly-populated urban area than it does to keep a bunch of angry people isolated in a thinly-populated rural area. I just wish the press would exercise the same restraint. These are idiots behaving like idiots -- dog bites man. If they start behaving like intelligent people, that could be news -- man bites dog.
John
Edit: HDDJ, I don't consider federal agents in a rural area "ordinary citizens."
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
I'm amused that people really think the Ferguson rioters were "unarmed"... lol
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US and most don't even know what the term national debt even means. Seriously, most of these idiots think it some sort of aggregate credit card liabilities.
We have people who refuse the low end jobs that people in other countries are more than willing to do. So is it any wonder that corporations are exporting jobs?
Now, can we please get back to Yee-haad! Those whacky street theater terrorists.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Bundy has repeatedly said the group is prepared for the long-haul. However during a tour of the site on earlier in the day, the Guardian was shown a food storage room that did not look like it could sustain a dozen men for more than a few weeks.
It included a cardboard box of apples and oranges, a few dozen pots of instant ramen, 24 cans of chicken noodle soup, a similar number of cans of sweetcorn, peas, beans and chili, and 20 boxes of macaroni and cheese.
There were also three sacks of potatoes, one bag of flour, another of rolled oats, boxes of raisins, a single bag of pretzels and one granola bar.
This doesn't account for the drone drops!
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
In those days, I guess the MSM found a police killing of a white person big news; that of a black not so.
Hate to break it to you, John, but police killing of a black man is NOT news---there is nothing unusual, unique, or surprising about that.
This is why people protest, and post about it. It is not news in the traditional sense.
I like your concept of a self-funded federal prison!
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
Try to hire a qualified tool and die maker.
Try to BE a qualified tool and die maker.
Nobody wants to pay to train them, and then they won't pay competitive salary and benefits.
Anybody who is skilled works for themselves on contract and makes three times the money.
Back in the 70's I had this discussion about carpenters when the going rate was $4 an hour and a company president uttered the line "you just can't get a good carpenter anymore"
I told him that was because a good carpenter won't work for somebody else for $4, and asked the president if he would work for that. He said of course not- he was a manager. So I told him if he wanted the work done, I hoped he could manage to put a tool belt on.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 11:13am PT
|
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US
That has got to be the most ignorant statement of the week, and that is a low bar on ST.
FACT The biggest moochers are in rural America.
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
|
|
Nah. The biggest moochers are people who get virtually free water from any federal water project, and anybody who profits from the oil depletion allowance.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
|
|
That's actually a really important point. The issue is entitlement. Most conservatives who decry welfare or government support are upset at the idea of people they don't think deserve it getting it. If America woke up tomorrow an entirely white nation the qualms about welfare would drop significantly. It's all about white entitlement.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I wouldn't argue that, Jon.
Colorado City is just down the road, some of the biggest cheats of all.
Just caught Capitan Moroni live, he tried to pull the speech that Shylock used in Merchant of Venice in order to garner sympathy, but failed to use iambic pentameter.
edit
Hell, even the climbing ethics wars are about entitlement.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
|
|
I love you all. I love this thread. I love this whole thing.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
|
|
Four generations of self entitled welfare cheats have helped to bankrupt US
I think it is unfair to label all western ranchers as welfare cheats. Just because they benefit from welfare doesn't mean they cheated.
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
HighDesertDJ - you should add "Check, and Mate" to the post with videos.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
I should also add that I experienced plenty of tear gas as a student at Berkeley from 1969-73, and whether white or black, the presence of riot police tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm sorry John, but comparing your experience growing up white in a white dominated society and then getting tear gassed when you mostly trust the police, to that of blacks who have good reason to not trust the police is just not the same. When you can't have a basic trust in those who enforce the law, then you have a serious situation. Which is part of what this situation in Oregon is about. Can we trust the feds to bring fair justice or do they strong arm people…. And please people, I am not trying to justify what is happen right now in Oregon. I'm just pointing to some roots, which is what we should be talking about.
These guys are whack, but there is also a growing sense of mistrust of government. Is it legit? I think on some levels it is. The crazy tax codes and overbearing rules we live with are out of whack in my opinion. Are there also those who are playing on peoples fears and making problems appear bigger then they are? I would say "absolutely". We need to find middle ground where we can discuss what to do, rather then just continually placing blame. People do need to take responsibility for their part in things, but we can't keep focusing on blame.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
We need to find middle ground where we can discuss what to do, rather then just continually placing blame. People do need to take responsibility for their part in things, but we can't keep focusing on blame.
Amen, John. I think some of the mistrust of government comes from the trend where both parties are nominating more extreme, less centrist, candidates for public office. Those not affiliated with the party of the elected public servant in question end up feeling completely disenfranchised, whether its crazies in Oregon or a rational disaffection in Ferguson.
Maybe because I'm a Republican, I get bombarded by the arguments of the extremists, allegedly on the right. (I say "allegedly" because many of their positions oppose traditional conservative values such as the free movement of goods and people or separation of church and state). It sickens me to read the rants of those for whom compromise and treason form synonyms. Maybe Democrats get the same sort of stuff from the left; I hope not. We desperately need politicians who can be statesmen, too. (I'm sorry, but I don't know the politically correct term for "statesman" or "statesmanship." That may be an unintended consequence of treating "man" as exclusively male.)
I must say in that regard that the second incarnation of Jerry Brown as governor has done a surprisingly good job of trying to be the governor of all Californians. He's spent precious little time trying to find blame, and a lot of time looking for solutions. We need more politicians like that.
John
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Sheesh, two level-headed unemotional posts in a row? WTF? I'm gonna comp each of you
a copy of my new book - The Growth Of Self-Serving Bureaucracy".
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
I've been doing a little reading about this whole affair. The two ranchers got stuck in federal mandatory minimum sentences. The judge even said that the 5 year sentence was unfair.
Mandatory minimums came about in the 90's when congressmen all started campaigning against crime. The result has been huge sentences for small crimes. We need to revisit that legislation and change it. They passed the laws because they thought that judges were letting people off with lenient sentences. The result has been a disappointment.
So I am with the two ranchers here. Burning some government scrub land is illegal, I agree. 5 years in prison is too much though.
I have absolutely no respect for the Bundy boys and the militia idiots. What they are doing is far more serious than burning 150 acres which probably needed it anyway. These guys took over a federal facility by force, and they are telling everyone that they make stay there for years, like they will actually change anything about how the BLM runs things.
I hope that these guys end up in jail. They deserve it far more than the two ranchers did.
And the ranchers and their families have said that they want nothing to do with Bundy, etal. So why are they even there?
There are a number of youtube videos of Ammon Bundy yacking away. He isn't exactly keeping his cards close to his chest.
What would happen to anyone here if they got their guns and took over the cafeteria in Curry Village?
These are not unarmed peaceful protests. They are headed for jail, and when the BLM seizes Bundy's land for non-payment of his grazing fees, I hope he goes down in flames. Figuratively.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
BASE104,
Minimum sentences started long before the 1990's. Several federal criminal statutes have had minimum sentences, some quite absurd. (As an example, if you fail to turn yourself in for the execution of a sentence of death, a minimum of two years imprisonment will be added to your sentence. This can be either a boon or a bane, depending on your view of life on death row.)
In the 1990's, the infamous sentencing guidelines purported to impose minimum sentences where the statutes failed to do so. The SCOTUS struck down the mandatory nature of those guidelines around 2004 or 2005, but the reasoning was that they exceeded the authority of a commission by de facto amending the criminal statutes to impose mandatory minima where congress had not done so.
The most egregious miscarriages I saw under the guidelines involved drug cases. Several of my fellow inmates at Taft were serving enormous sentences for very tiny - sometimes unknowing - involvement in the illegal drug trade.
My personal bottom line is that justice is imperfect, because people are imperfect. If I could trust all judges to sentence justly, I wouldn't need to specify penalties. The specification of penalties reflects legislative distrust of judges. Either way, we end up with unjust sentences.
John
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!