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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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i find it sad that humans find it easy to pick a side or an enemy and consider violence against them without remorse. It's sad in Hamas and Israel alike and also on Supertopo.
Just the way we've wired ourselves....to be normal nice people but well willing to push the button for the pain and torment of others without insuring we have followed a righteous path ourselves, in fact, with evidence to the contrary.
I could stand behind Israeli violence if I hadn't studied and seen the continuing land grap and ethnic cleansing at the root of their policy. I want to support somebody doing the right thing but all the wrong people are in power.
I hope Obama can do something about that, but I'm afraid the current escalation is timed to get something done, or maybe just started, before he can do anything about it.
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"I do have a bit of belief issue about that story though...like these 3 guys with faint accents don't have anything better or more productive to do at this time than to drive by to try and intimidate you? Your phone and internet is already tapped by the US Gov't, as are all of ours as well...what could they gain by a drive by"?
Many of you won't remember when I explained both my families Polish roots and my wife's Diaspora Palestinian roots. Other than the ones who emigrated before WW2 none of my family made it alive out of the ruin of Poland. Their history is all but lost. I went to Poland 3 times and found NOTHING.
My wife's was and is a very prominent Christian Palestinian (not a rarity at all) Family with deep roots. Her cousin is Noor the former Queen of Jordan a prominent peace activist. One uncle was the head of the FAA under Kennedy. Her great Uncle was the only Christian Arab Mayor of Jerusalem. And these are not the most amazing members of her remarkable family.
I posted this and good deal more on a previously thread all of which is 100% verifiable. And because it would lead anyone who cared to research a little to names and addresses my wife was mortified and frightened that I was disclosing too much. It would have been child's play to put what I posted together with where we live and just wait for an opportunity. My take is the encounter I experienced was a crude attempt to intimidate me. But I am a veteran of among other things all the big bad nasty Black Canyon routes so I don't intimidate easily. But when it comes to a veiled threat about my children's well being I draw the line.
"And in reading the thread above, you say that your wife is both a Palestinian and a Quaker who has recently traveled to Israel...that's very, very different and unusual as well wouldn't you say Philo"? ....
I am curious why you think that is different and unusual? Most of the Jewish members of my family (surprised?) were initially taken aback with the notion of a Quaker Palestinian. But they all adore her and her peaceful ways.
A great many Palestinians are Christian which most Arab bashers either don't know or choose to ignore. Perhaps you were not aware that the Quakers, who were tremendously instrumental in the founding of America, are Christians.
"(ie, Philo said: "Chaz I am sorry you missed my post that explained that my wife is Palestinian and has family and friends under fire in the war zone".
*and*
"My wife just talked last night to one of her best friends. She is a wonderfully loving 90+ year old Jewish gentle woman who Loves my Quaker Palestinian wife like a daughter.
Both my wife and I have many Jewish friends and I have Jewish relatives. But to be clear my wife is the lovable pacifist and a social phenomenon. I am just a Polish beast.
I really Don't care if any die hard Arab bashers don't believe a word I say I will continue to speak truth to power.
I did try to take these men's picture with my camera phone but for some reason they were very camera shy. I probably shouldn't have said "Hey wait let me get your picture". Next time I won't advertise.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"And you think DC would provide a real email addy so you can harass him?"
Yeah right. Harass the VP. That would be a great one for the Darwin awards.
Why not his office address.
I'm sure they have more filtering capability than anyone.
Anyway, I'd send off an e-mail just asking for a reply, nothing more or less, so I can verify where the e-mail came from. I could care less if it came from his sec.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Oh God I knew it was inevitable but I hope we are not Witnessing the Loisification of yet another thread. Lois my wife and I used to own an orchard in the four corner area of Colorado. You can only talk "apples" for so long. Please don't here.
And Lois with all respect (so you will at least hear me with an open mind) This is NOT a one way street. Both sides have at times called for the total destruction of the other. Not just one side. Both sides have a legal right to defend themselves. Not just one side.
The significant disparity is Israel receives more financial aid from us than any other country. In fact they receive more than the next three countries combined. With this US Largesse and total one sided support they have built one of the largest standing armies in the world. They have every conceivable advanced weapon system in their burgeoning arsenal. Including WMDs. You know chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. They have also used the unflinching support and financial assistance of US to dispossess the Palestinians of their land and resources with illegal settlements. And build The Great Wall of Apartheid to the tune of $3,000,000.00 of our dollars a mile. Next consider the Palestinians under occupation. Regardless of what ever you have been told they are existing in a living hell. Like the Blacks of pre civil rights America they live in constant fear. They can been beaten mercilessly by settlers with no recourse. If they do fight back they will be killed and their families property will be bulldozed and confiscated. Just imagine a young Palestinian boy watching his mother being stoned by a gang of settler punks. If he interferes He will be hauled off to jail and beaten possibly to death. While his mom will be left bleeding in the dirt. This is not supposition it happens almost every day in the occupied West Bank.
Like the Blacks of segregated America they have to accept what ever is done to them. If they raise a hand against a settler their life is null and void.
Search your heart if you can condone this because of the one sided message you have been force feed your whole life then I would say your morality is seriously questionable.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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"I did not mention apples on this thread".
Not yet Lois but please acknowledge your phenomenal ability to derail a thread with endless prattle.
"Is the point you are making that we get skewed information concerning Israel"?
Yes that is a point I have been endeavoring to make.
"Are you saying they are just as "wrong" as the people who vow to destroy them"?
Yes Lois that is exactly what I am saying.
But please feel free to read all posts on this thread to get yourself "up to speed".
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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LEB = LSD
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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HA HA HA HA ahh bless your heart Tami that was some of the best advise I have heard in a long time.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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If my pal FatTrad had even 1% of the political connections he claims to have, SuperTopo is the last place he'd boast about it. Those with such connections may or may not want them to be public - but the politicians very much tend to want to keep them quiet. And they try to avoid those who would do otherwise.
Influence and connections are far more powerful if private. If you boast about it, you probably don't have it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Paranoid schizophrenia is one of several types of schizophrenia, a chronic mental illness in which reality is interpreted abnormally (psychosis). The classic features of paranoid schizophrenia are having beliefs that have no basis in reality (delusions) and hearing things that aren't real (auditory hallucinations).
With paranoid schizophrenia, your ability to think and function in daily life may be better than with other types of schizophrenia. You may not have as many problems with memory, concentration or dulled emotions. Still, paranoid schizophrenia is a serious, lifelong condition that can lead to many complications, including suicidal behavior. But with effective treatment, you can manage the symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia and work toward leading a happier, healthier life.
Symptoms
Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:
* Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
* Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you or that you are being stalked by the Mossad.
* Anxiety
* Anger
* Aloofness
* Violence
* Verbal confrontations
* Patronizing manner
* Suicidal thoughts and behavior
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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You left off...
Believing you will be Emperor of Yosemite.
And GC you, who do not know me, are likely the only one in the world who would think of attributing PS to me. Cool! Guess I have to kill myself now. What's that you say? Speak up. The voices in my head are so quiet I can't even hear them.
You cannot legitimately refute my arguments so you resort to character assassination.
How very adult of you. What do you label that delusional disorder?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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* Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices (?)
* Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you or that you are being stalked by the "Mossad." (DOUBLE CHECK)
* Anxiety (CHECK)
* Anger (CHECK)
* Aloofness (CHECK)
* Violence (CHECK?)
* Verbal confrontations (CHECK)
* Patronizing manner (CHECK)
* Suicidal thoughts and behavior (?)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I know a lot of people who suffer from depression or a variety of mental challenges. Some of the finest people I know in fact.
That said, I have no knowledge that leads me to believe Philo is one of them.
But if he was, it's a particular shame that somebody like that should have the most informed and balanced posts on this subject. I've studied it from all sides and read the polemics of every axe to grind. I've already admitted, unlike some posers, that I have a tendency to be prejudiced against Islam, but it keeps getting refuted by acquaintance with actual muslims and by my desire to think in terms of justice and not just believing what I want to believe.
It certainly is uncomfortable to let "the enemy" out of the box of their demonization. It takes away the black and white and reminds us of our flaws. It's also hard to admit we support a party that does wrong.
I've seen it though, not just in big political affairs but in families where the breadwinner is a sexual abuser or a perpetrator of domestic violence. Family members just sort of deny it because they are dependent on the bread and can't handle the cognitive dissonance of supporting somebody who has gone down a dark road.
Still, it doesn't support anybody to let them do wrong. I call on Israel to stop settlements and abuse so their would be no justification for the Palestinians to seek to harm them.
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jews lived in Gaza for thousands of years but then they were killed or forced to leave. Karl, do you know why are there no Jews living in Gaza? (Hint: this happened before Israel or the settlements existed.)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Just got to get my two cents in here.
So, WHY do some of you morons have a problem with people, whom a lot of the world has been out to exterminate for a long time, in more than one historical era, defending themselves????
Calling the Israelis scum, that's great. They are our only true ally in the region, or didn't you notice that?
I'd sure trust the jews a lot more than the arabs, in general at least, and I bet when the shyte hits the fan Israel will be on our side, while the arabs, no matter what any of em have said, will not.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I dunno, here's some history I pulled from the net. Which ass kicking massacre by whom are you referring to, or run of the mill invasion and occupation?
""The land formerly known as Palestine."
The region formerly known as Palestine was formerly known as Israel and only renamed to Palestine by the Romans in order to offend the Jews who lived there
Jews have been continuously living there for over three thousand years
How long have Arabs or Muslims been living there? Nowhere near as long.
Half of Jewish history had already happened there by the time Mohammed even spoke his first words.
The history of the area is complex due to the many tribes and (later) nations that settled, conquered and ruled, traded there or moved through: Canaanites, Philistines, Samaritans, Nabataeans, Greeks, Romans, Muslims and Christians.
In pre-Biblical times, the area was known as the Land of Canaan and had been a collection of city-states, tributary to the Egyptian Pharoah, as attested to in the Tel-El Amarna tablets. The breakup of the Egyptian empire beginning about 1500 BC made possible the invasion of the Israelites. According to Jewish tradition, twelve tribes entered Canaan from Egypt and conquered it, led by Moses approximately 1240-1200 BC. Historical evidence from the Amarna tablets suggests that there were already 'apiru' (Hebrews) among the Canaanites in the time of Egyptian rule.
During the final years of the Late Bronze Age, the Philistines also invaded Canaan (1500 - 1200 BC). Other evidence suggests that around 1200 BC, semi-nomads from the desert fringes to the east, joined by elements from Anatolia, the Aegean, and the south, possibly including Egypt, began to settle in the hill country of Canaan. A large proportion - probably a majority of this population - were refugees from the Canaanite city states, destroyed by the Egyptians in one of their periodic invasions.
The Biblical account continues with the rise of an Israelite kingdom, first under Saul and then under David at about 1000 BC, the date of David's conquest of Jerusalem.
In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians, was rebuilt (516 BC). Under Persian rule the Jewish state enjoyed considerable autonomy. Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered the area in 333 BC His successors, the Ptolemies and Seleucids, contested for control. The attempt of the Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees, who set up a new Jewish state in 142 BC The state lasted until 63 BC, when Pompey conquered the region for Rome.
At the time of Christ the Jewish state was ruled by puppet kings of the Romans, the Herods. When the Jews revolted in 66 AD, the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem (70 AD). The Bar Kokba revolt between 132 and 135 AD was also suppressed, Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. The Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina. The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived left the devastated country (and established Jewish communities throughout the Middle East) but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land of Israel. That is, there were always Jews and Jewish communities in Palestine, though the size and conditions of those communities fluctuated greatly.
When Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity (312), he took steps to elevate the status of Jerusalem and the city became a center of Christian pilgrimage. Constantine relaxed some restrictions on Jews, but renewed the prohibition on the residence of Jews in Jerusalem, permitting them to mourn for its destruction once a year, on the ninth day of the Hebrew month of Av.
Palestine over the next few centuries generally enjoyed peace and prosperity until it was conquered in 614 AD by the Persians. It was recovered briefly by the Byzantine Romans, but fell to the Muslim Arabs under caliph Umar by the year 640. During the Umayyad rule, the importance of Palestine as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized, but little was done to develop the region economically. Few Arabs came to Palestine; the Muslim rulers ruled Christians and Jews.
In 691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon, which is claimed by Muslims to have been the halting station of Muhammad on his journey to heaven. Close to the Dome, the al Aqsa mosque was built. In 750, Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.
In the 9th century, Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies - the Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins - and Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed. In 1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders, establishing the Latin Kingdom. Jews were seen by the Crusaders as infidels, as bad as the Muslim occupiers of Jerusalem, and were slaughtered by Christian soldiers along their way to liberate Jerusalem and then thousands in the city when they got there. Following the first Crusade, a Papal Bull was issued in 1119 AD to reinforce St. Augustine's earlier plea, in 427 AD, not to kill the Jews, but to allow them to wander the earth as evidence of their rejection by God.
By the time the Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin (1187), and the Latin Kingdom was ended, Palestine had become a wasteland. Mongol invaders who arrived in 1260 destroyed many of the villages. The Mamluks ended the Crusader period in 1291, but under Mamluk rule Palestine declined further. Mamluks burned and sacked towns and villages, uprooted orchards, and destroyed wells. In 1351, the Black Death was reported in Palestine and by 1500 the population had declined to barely 200,000 people. For comparison, the state of New Jersey, roughly comparable to Israel in size, had a 2001 population of about 8.5 million people and still had rural, undeveloped areas.
In 1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. The discovery of sea routes to the East began to erode the importance of the Middle East to commerce. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. The Ottoman tax system was ruinous and did much to keep the land underdeveloped and the population small. When Alexander W. Kinglake crossed the Jordan in 1834-35, he used the Jordan's only bridge, a survival from Roman antiquity. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).
World War I led to the British expulsion of the Ottoman Turks as rulers over their province of Palestine. In the war, the Ottoman empire aligned with Germany against France and Britain. The war also gave Britain the excuse to depose the Egyptian Khedive, Abbas Hilmy, and to create a British protectorate there.
In 1920, following the defeat of the Turks, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and the peace conferences after World War I, the British Mandate for Palestine was created by the League of Nations. The Mandate was international recognition for the stated purpose of "establishing in Palestine a national home for the Jewish people." Note that this is long before World War II.
The area of the Mandate was originally 118,000 square kilometers (about 45,000 square miles). In 1921, Britain took the 91,000 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate east of the Jordan River, and created Trans-Jordan (later the Arab country of Jordan) as a new Arab protectorate. Jews were barred by law from living or owning property east of the Jordan river, even though that land was over three-fourths of the original Mandate.
In 1923, Britain ceded the Golan Heights (another 1,176 square kilometers of the Palestine Mandate) to the French Mandate of Syria. Jews were also barred from living there. Jewish settlers on the Golan Heights were forced to abandon their homes and relocate inside the westerb area of the British Mandate.
The total remaining area of the Mandate for Palestine, after these land deductions, was just under 26,000 square kilometers (about 10,000 square miles). The southern part of the Mandate – the desert of the Negev – was also closed by the British to Jewish settlement. The area was inhabited by 15,000 roaming Bedouins, and had no Jewish or Arab settlements in it.
The balance of the Mandate, the inhabited part of Palestine, and only the part west of the Jordan, was just 14,000 square kilometers. Jewish immigration was limited by the British from time to time, especially after the periods of Arab riots and severely restricted after 1939. At the same time, Arab immigration was not restricted or even recorded. By 1948, when the State of Israel was founded, 1.8 million people lived the western area of the Mandate, estimated to be 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. Following the war between the Jews and the Arabs in 1948, the inhabited areas of the 14,000 square kilometers were divided along cease-fire lines between Israel and Jordan/Egypt. 8,000 square kilometers, or 57% of the reduced area (which is only 6.7% of the original Mandate territory), became Israel. The rest of the area of western Palestine, 5,700 square kilometers of historic Judea and Samaria, was annexed by Jordan – and renamed the West Bank - while 360 square kilometers were occupied by Egypt and called the Gaza Strip.
In 1946, Britain unilaterally granted Transjordan its independence completing the action taken in 1922 when all land within the Mandate east of the Jordan was set aside for the Arabs. With Transjordan's independence, the British had partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state with 77% of the original territory.
In 1947 Great Britain declared its Mandate in Palestine "unworkable" and referred the matter to the youthful UN. That body created a special committee of eleven member states to study the issues and report its recommendations. The UN Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) was the first truly independent tribunal to examine the Palestine question. UNSCOP's majority concluded that the League of Nations pledge of a Jewish national home had never been fulfilled, as Jewish immigration and land purchases had been artificially restricted by the British Mandate authorities.
The committee recommended an end to the British Mandate and the partitioning of the area. However, the partition plan was directed only at the 23% of the original Mandate that was left after the British subdivision that gave 77% to create the Arab territory of Transjordan. Of the remaining 23%, 56% was allocated to a Jewish state, 42% to an Arab state, and an international zone for the holy places in and around Jerusalem was allocated 2%.
On November 29, 1947, the U.N. General Assembly by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine jubilantly accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Not only were Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip not included, but also Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North and parts of the Negev desert in the South were excluded. The Arab national movement in Palestine, as well as all the Arab states, angrily rejected partition. They demanded the entire country for themselves and threatened to resist partition by force. Had they accepted the U.N. proposal in 1947, the independent Palestinian Arab state, covering an area much larger than the West Bank and Gaza, would have been created along with Israel. Instead, they launched a war to destroy the nascent Jewish state.
It is important to note that there was a Jewish population in Palestine continuously. Even after the Jewish state was ended by the Romans, Jewish communities continued to exist. All of the successor governments tried to eliminate the Jews at one time or another, but none succeeded as numerous accounts testify over the centuries. When the Zionists started the modern "return" to Eretz Yisrael in the 19th Century, they were joining Jews who never left.
1 year ago"
Peace
karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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LOL all these years, and fatty finally gets one right!
fatboy wrote:
"It's very easy to stop this. Have the Saudi Whahabi clerics, Pakistani madrassa's, Iranian Muallahs give up on the idea of recapturing Jerusalem, let Israel keep it's current borders and then peace would erupt. Of course this will not happen, hence.................The Clash of Civilizations. The Palestinians are merely pawns, The Saudis could easily build luxury condos for every family in Gaza in two months."
Of course those hate-filled old wretches who prey on the minds of the innocent to go to their stupid 'schools', and then wage their terror war will NEVER stop.
So we should stop them.
Oh, but wait, the Saudis support those schools, don't they?
Some friends the Sauds turn out to be.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Calling the Israelis scum, that's great. They are our only true ally in the region, or didn't you notice that? "
I don't mind having scum for enemies. I just don't want em for friends. It's up to us to help them get straight with justice.
And don't give em such a pass. It was Israel who attacked and killed US military in 1967 on the US Liberty intentionally, and there have been a number scandals where Israel has sent spies to spy on the US government, some are still in jail here.
It's not so black and white. Remember Saddam used to be a US ally and we cheered him on during the worst period of his killing and oppression. Funny, our allies can do no wrong until we turn on em
Peace
karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Are you really going to compare the disaster of Saddam to Israel?
NO doubt at all that the US makes HUGE and tragic mistakes around the world though. That might be the saddest part-- that after WW2 we had a chance to make things right, and we did not.
Famous quote from some US general about a banana republic strong man: "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."
Our better dead that red foreign policy along with near total mis-comprehension of the rest of the world,has led to a lot of crap for everyone. Sad but true.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Unfortunately I don't get to spend very much time online so I just throw my 2cents in here and there.
Chris2 - Al Jazeera is the ONLY source of news for that area. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes it's bad. Foreign reporters are rarely allowed and for good reason. They "aquire" many of their stories. When you watch a story being manufactured or see a story run on CNN about an incident you were involved in that looks nothing like the truth then all such footage becomes suspect. How many stretchers do you see being rushed through the streets without an obvious doctor around, without seeing the body beneath the sheet. How many don't even have blood on them, etc.
The problem clearly lies with the innability of both sides to come to a compromise. I like balance. I like to see both sides of the story. Israel's side is constantly demonized. The pallestinians didn't complain when the Jews were buying up the land and turning it prosperous in the late 1800's thus bringing in bedouin workers which would later call themselves palestinian. Why didn't Jordan give the Pallestinians their own territory when they governed the west bank in the 60's??? People are too easily fooled into thinking the muslim world are all brothers who support each other. Truth is most Islamic countries watch happily as Israel attacks Hamas. An Israeli friend told me a joke many years ago. What do the Jordanians call Israel? Jordan. What do the Egyptians call Isreal? Egypt. What do the Syrians call Israel? Syria.
It's a shame Hamas was acknowledged by world leaders as a political party instead of the terrorist organization that they are. The true leaders of the Palestinian movement is Fatah. I'm sure they don't have a problem with Hamas getting their butt kicked either. We don't need another Beruit. There were peace talks and a treaty that Hamas decided not to honor. We can make them sit down and we can make them talk but what should we do when they won't play nice?
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