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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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John M said,
The crazy tax codes and overbearing rules we live with are out of whack in my opinion
What codes or rules to you specifically have a problem with?
I just listed one of my pet peeves: The mandatory minimum federal sentences. A judge CAN'T give them a lesser sentence. That is why the Hammonds are back in jail. Burning less than a quarter section of scrubland, that the federal biologist would probably approve of, merits a 5 year sentence?
I live in an area where ranchers like to periodically burn their pastures. Usually in late winter, after the cattle have grazed on it all that they can and are living on hay. The grass comes back beautifully in the spring. A lot of these fires jump a fence into a neighbor's pasture. They are usually glad about it, too. I've never heard of one suing another over a pasture fire. The cattle are so hard on the land that it NEEDS to be burned now and then, as it naturally was before we started putting every little prairie fire out. It is a part of natural management. The Nature Conservancy regularly burns grassland.
The mandatory minimums effect blacks far more than whites. The sentence for crack, a street drug, is far higher than for powdered cocaine.
Somebody check that for me, but I believe it is true.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Here's our list of non-negotiable demands.
A leader of the small armed group that has been occupying a remote national wildlife refuge in Oregon said Tuesday that they will go home when a plan to turn over management of federal lands to locals is implemented.
...
... a rallying cry for the group calling itself Citizens for Constitutional Freedom, whose mostly male members said they want federal lands turned over to local authorities so people can use them free of U.S. oversight.
The Hammonds have distanced themselves from the protest group. Many locals don't want the activists here, fearing they may bring trouble.
Seeds of the dispute date back decades in the West, where the federal government owns about half of all land.
In the 1970s, Nevada and other states pushed for local control in what was known as the Sagebrush Rebellion. Supporters wanted more land for cattle grazing, mining and timber harvesting.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article53065590.html#storylink=cpy
"Supporters wanted more land for cattle grazing, mining and timber harvesting" or in common parlance a hand-out.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Burning less than a quarter section of scrubland, that the federal biologist would probably approve of, merits a 5 year sentence?
I agree that it seems excessive. However, (and perhaps the fault is in the definition, these guys were found guilty of Arson. And not all Arson is the same.
But still if Banquo's reference is correct, the Hammonds are guilty of far worse by threatening federal employees who were just doing their job. The guys in Burns who work for BLM don't make the rules, they follow them. And yet if the reference is correct, then the Hammonds threatened not only the federal employees but their families as well.
It is hard to have sympathy for that.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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A leader of the small armed group that has been occupying a remote national wildlife refuge in Oregon said Tuesday that they will go home when a plan to turn over management of federal lands to locals is implemented.
I have spent some time in that area and there are some pretty places. I want my chunk of federal land.IS that all it takes is a gun and a lobotomy?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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yeah Arson to cover up the crime of poaching deer.
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dirtbag
climber
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Lobotomy, or a family tree that doesn't branch much.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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I was curious and looked up the appeals court opinion on the sentence. The Hammonds agreed to a plea deal and pled guilty to some but not all of the charges. The district court refused to impose the mandatory minimum sentence under the 8th amendment. The appeals court reversed, finding that 5 years for arson is perfectly reasonable.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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^Did they plead guilty to arson?
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John M
climber
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Hey Base, I don't have any specific examples. More of a general experience. The tax code is so incredibly large. Plus codes that place burdens on businesses, such as the handicap parking space requirement that at one point in Sacramento was causing serious problems for small businesses. I don't know what the solution is because its common sense that is needed, but common sense isn't common. It also comes down to who is enforcing the rule. I had to redo a roof because I laid 15 weight felt overlapped by half. The code called for a total of 30 weight, which I achieved, but the code enforcer wanted 30 weight felt. It just seemed overbearing to me. Somehow we need to get to a point where things aren't overbearing.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Nah. The biggest moochers are people who get virtually free water from any federal water project.
That raises government apologetics to an art form.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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If they die during yeehawd they get to sleep with 72 cousins.
Oh. I thought if they were martyred they went to the giant ranch in the sky where they would get 47,000 acres of virgin land subsided by Federal tax payers...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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I think when people discuss what the law is, we should look at the actual statute, so people don't get sidetracked with discussions about discretion and sentencing commissions. So here is the law an elected Congress passed in 1996 and what a jury of their peers convicted them of.
110 STAT. 1298 PUBLIC LAW 104–132—APR. 24, 1996
SEC. 708. ENHANCED PENALTIES FOR USE OF EXPLOSIVES OR ARSON CRIMES.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Section 844 of title 18, United States Code, is amended—
(1) in subsection (e), by striking ‘‘five’’ and inserting ‘‘10’’;
(2) by amending subsection (f) to read as follows:
‘‘(f)(1) Whoever maliciously damages or destroys, or attempts to damage or destroy, by means of fire or an explosive, any building, vehicle, or other personal or real property in whole or in part owned or possessed by, or leased to, the United States, or any department or agency thereof, shall be imprisoned for not less than 5 years and not more than 20 years, fined under this title,
or both.
‘‘(2) Whoever engages in conduct prohibited by this subsection,
and as a result of such conduct, directly or proximately causes personal injury or creates a substantial risk of injury to any person, including any public safety officer performing duties, shall be imprisoned for not less than 7 years and not more than 40 years, fined under this title, or both.
‘‘(3) Whoever engages in conduct prohibited by this subsection, and as a result of such conduct directly or proximately causes the death of any person, including any public safety officer perform- ing duties, shall be subject to the death penalty, or imprisoned for not less than 20 years or for life, fined under this title, or both.’’;
Since their sentence is five years, that's the minimum anywhere in the statute.
There was testimony that the fires endangered fire fighter camping on a nearby butte. I have no idea if the Feds sought a 7 year minimum under the statute for section (2).
Also note it doesn't matter where the fire was started or that there be actual real damage, only that there be malicious intent and it be by means of fire or explosives.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
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On its face 5 years seems excessive for the fire. However these people have a history of breaking the law. Furthermore one fires was set to hide evidence of the slaughter of deer, at least 7 died, More limped off.
I could probably agree that the sentence might have been on the harsh side. Would be funny if Obama commuted their sentence, that would take the wind out of the nutters sails. Of course they would squawk that it took too long. Obama could have singlehandedly cured cancer and the nutters would cry foul.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mandatory minimums suck. But then so do the Bundy crew...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Mandatory minimums suck. But then so do the Bundy crew...
Mandatory minimums have always sucked and were out of proportion to crimes.
Congress wrote them to take away the discretion for leniency on purpose.
People have gotten huge drug possession sentences for a joint or two.
Why is this flaw in the system only though of now?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Why is this flaw in the system only though[t] of now?
It wasn't. The Daily Signal (an organ of the very conservative Heritage Foundation) has been a strong supporter of reducing and rationalizing sentences for drug possession, and has actually praised the Obama administration for supporting this.
John
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 03:09pm PT
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The right wing jumped on the bandwagon only after they realized that the decades old tough on crime campaign was a complete failure and was costing us billions. They are trying to shut the barn door after the horses have already bolted, and after their cronies made billions.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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The right wing jumped on the bandwagon only after they realized that the decades old tough on crime campaign was a complete failure and was costing us billions. They are trying to shut the barn door after the horses have already bolted, and after their cronies made billions.
You got it backwards, the US crazy incarceration system is as much a union thing (left wing) as anything else.
Check out what the California Correctional Peace Officers Association has been up.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
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the US crazy incarceration system is as much a union thing (left wing) as anything else.
Check out what the California Correctional Peace Officers Association has been up.
The prisons guards got their noses up as many Republican arses as Democratic. It is not at all a political issue, it is a money issue.
Good article from 2013
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/california-prison-guards_n_3894490.html
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