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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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"C’mon… I wanna see some motherf*#kers get vaporized!!! "
I did have some serious respect for you Minerals.
No more.
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Lafta
climber
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People, people, people. Do you not see?
This latest conflict is all in line with those who are establishing a new world order as spoken of by Bush senior and other world leaders numerous times.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=750296
Hug your wife and kids, send those projects, and just....live!
Cause the times, they are a changin'.
Things are not as they appear.
Ask yourself why the flag was fluttering (as if in the wind) during the first lunar landing?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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" continuing my theme of moral clarity: "
...you'll come up for fresh air?
Your links and premise have the "moral" clarity of crude oil.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Lafta -funny you should mention the moon flag. Recently in a
MythBusters episode they busted your non-original theory about the Apollo moon missions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMBCfuKs9i8
But thankyou for demonstrating again how easily aurthoritative sounding statements can fool. The media war between Israel and the terrorists is most notable.
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Avishai
Mountain climber
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It is clear that modern terrorists campaigning in favor of violence and war instead of promoting democracy succeeded in manipulating bookworm’s “theme of moral clarity.”
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Hi Mr. Bookworm- I was checking on your statement of 30 minute missile warnings.
("for the next one, pay close attention to paragraph two...those who insist that nobody can claim the higher moral ground might consider this fact: israel ALWAYS warns the palestinians about when and where they will strike; they provide 30 minutes for the palestinians to vacate the area.")
Sounds good, but this is the support you offered:
"Nizar Rayan, his four wives and 10 of his children were all killed by in an Israeli air strike on his home after he ignored warnings they should go into hiding"
This seems exceptionally thin to me and I'm wondering why you think it could fly. Do you have other more meaningful information to establish this hard-to-believe claim?
Credible moral priorites entail attention to principles of reason. Earlier you suggested my statements "inferred" support of Hamas...a gross mischaracterization. I'm still waiting for you to awknowledge my correction.
Bruce
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Book worm would have you believe that the IDF "ALWAYS" gives 30 minutes warning.
Here is the truth;
From Haaretz.com
The IDF has code named such operations "roof knocking," in which the army informs the residents of s suspected building that they have 10 minutes to leave the premises. In some cases, residents of suspected houses have been able to prevent bombing by climbing up to the roof to show that they will not leave, prompting IDF commanders to call off the strike.
Notice the say TEN MINUTES WARNING not thirty minutes to evacuate.
Now here will be an interesting and telling experiment for the adventurous.
Tonight when everyone in your home is asleep and unsuspecting start your chronometer. Count down from ten minutes. Now, while screaming as loudly as you can and making as much chaotic noise as possible, quickly gather up your spouse and children don't forget the beloved family pets and grab what ever you think you will need or can't face loosing and run. Run for your lives! How far do you have to run from a two thousand pound bomb before you are in the clear from "collateral Damage"? What did you leave behind? Any irreplaceable family heirlooms? Photo? Climbing gear? It's gonna be a long night what are you going to feed your children?
Ten minutes isn't a long time to pack for an extended trip!
When Palestinian families, who refuse to leave their homes, stand on the roofs to dissuade the IAF from bombing them the IDF responds by "tapping" them. Which entails an Apache gun ship launching a missile into the corner of the roof while the family (women and children) are still there..
I am sorry that some of you believe the IDF is humanely moral because they give fair warning.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Those so called warnings have been shown to be seriously flawed. One was an email sent to an account they said belonged to this group they were going to target. It was not an email account that was checked often. Records showed this. The email was sent in the middle of the night. Who checks their email when they are asleep?
To believe that Israel is really trying to warn people shows serious inability to discern the truth. They would never kill a bad guy if what they said was true, because the bad guys would know in advance that Israel does this and so would be prepared to leave at a moments notice.
It is a bunk story to give Israel an appearance of the higher moral ground.
Sorry Bookworm, but you acceptance of this show serious lack of judgement on your part, or that you are too invested in Israel being the good guy. Give it up. They aren't the good guy. There is no good guy in this.
Justice is not achieved by deciding who is the better person. It is achieved by looking at the Truth. And the Truth is that both sides have done immoral actions.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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John,
You got it!
No one is on any form of moral high ground.
If anything the ground both stand on is low as the dead sea.
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Avishai
Mountain climber
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Bruce, don’t waste your time expecting any meaningful acknowledgement to your correction. Such deaf-mutes are unable to comprehend, and choose instead to regurgitate their own moral judgments regardless of right or wrong.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Wow Uncle Doug kudos for a poignantly succinct nugget of truth.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Yeah Coz can you believe it 4 dead innocent Israelis! Those murderous blood thirsty terrorist beasts. They have no place existing among us civilized nations. Good thing we the US are continuously willing to stand behind Israel 100%. We wouldn't want Israel to run out of bullets now would we?
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Hey- it's Sunday (religious translation: Friday , Saturday Sabbaths), so my time is cheap.
Book..."You have ten minutes to respond...or else!"
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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12:36 p.m.
KA BOOM!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I would say that was nice and moral. haha
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Go to wikipedia for the footnotes.
Nizar Rayan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nizar Rayan
Born March 6, 1959(1959-03-06)
Jabalia
Died January 1, 2009 (aged 49)
Gaza City
Cause of death Air force attack
Ethnicity Arab
Citizenship Palestinian
Known for Hamas leadership
Religious beliefs Islam
Sheikh Nizar Rayan (Arabic: نزار ريان, also transliterated Rayyan) (March 6, 1959 – January 1, 2009) was a top Hamas military commander who was killed during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Personal life and background
* 2 Israeli attack
* 3 References
* 4 External links
[edit] Personal life and background
Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip[citation needed] on March 6, 1959.[1] He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Um Dorman University in Sudan.[2][3][4] Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher,[3] before becoming a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip.[4][5] Rayan enjoyed going out on patrol with the militants after delivering lectures.[6] He had a 5,000-book library in his basemant, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).[3] He was married to four women with whom he had at least eleven children.[7]
An influential preacher at what is known in Jabalia as the "Mosque of martyrs", Rayan mentored suicide bombers.[8][6] He sent his own son on a suicide mission, which also killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.[9][10][11][12][13][14][6]
After Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel, Rayan advocated for their renewal.[5][6] When the Israeli military killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority.[3] Rayan directed and financed the Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.[15][3][14][16]
Rayan was one of the architects behind the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Palestinian Fatah party members were killed and dozens more Palestinians were tortured and maimed.[6][3] According to an Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes.[3] He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."[3]
Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel.[9] He proclaimed, "True Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."[17]
Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah.[17] He also believed that Jews must pay for murdering prophets of Islam and "closing [their] your ears to the Messenger of Allah."[17]
[edit] Israeli attack
Rayan was preaching in a local mosque the day before he was killed and declared: "Our only language with the Jew is through the gun".[6] He also appeared on Al-Aqsa TV proclaiming, "God willing, the evil state, the Jewish state will not break the resistance.[9]
Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.[18] A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing him, his four wives, and 11 of their children.[19][20][11][12]
Rayan did not take security precautions despite the fact that Hamas figures were at risk of being assassinated.[21][4] While most of Hamas' leaders went into hiding after the Israeli operation began in December, Rayan chose to stay at home.[9][14]
The IDF warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent and urged him to evacuate his family, but he refused.[2][22][14][6][6] According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home."[6] He put nearby civilians to risk as well.[20]
The Israeli military regularly contacted Gazans, either be telephone or flier, that their building was being targeted ("Roof knocking").[22][23][24][25] However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."[23]
According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack.[3] The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house.[20][13][6]
Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004.[10] Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.[6]
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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The Shutzstaffel (SS) have entered Gaza. Nazi swines will do to Gaza as they did to Fallujah.
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