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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 17, 2016 - 03:48pm PT
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Pretty sure you KNOW what I am getting at...
Someone DOES NOT have to KNOW a damned thing about God or Religion in order to do GOOD things...
Well, the very first sentence in my first response to you was:
A strange statement, and perhaps you meant it in the sense of "you don't have to be religious to be a good person" which is true.
So yes, I guess I know what you're getting at... even better than you ;-)
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
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Murder and rape = BAD...
Giving someone a ride to the hospital without charging them = GOOD...
Maybe, but from a genetic point of view it might be the opposite. From an atomic point of view it's chemicals and electricity so it doesn't matter. From an ecological point of view it might be good if a few more people were murdered.
I'm just always interested in people's personal beliefs in something that they often think is inherent and factual. Everyone has faith in their view of good an bad. What I mean is that nobody can know the difference between good and bad without faith, beliefs, perspective and opinion. AKA, religion.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Sep 17, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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What Locker meant was GUD! That should clear things up. Locker IS GOOD, GUD, or however you want it......he set me off on a new path in life and it had nothing to do with God, god or GUD!
Thanks Brother!
Peace
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
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I'm responding to this part of a post on last page:
The problem is pride. Since it is natural to desire acceptance, people want to believe something within them is worth loving. But the cross requires kneeling before God empty-handed. When we humbly admit we’re powerless to settle our own sin debt, we must accept the payment Jesus made for us. .
"People want to believe something within them is worth loving. But the cross requires kneeling before God empty-handed." Does this imply that, in order to earn God's love and acceptance, you must surrender the idea that you are worthy of love? In my personal emotional/spiritual journey in giving up old resentments and angers, and learning to live more harmoniously with my fellow humans while being less subject to emotional triggers, learning to love more openly- in this process I found that realizing I am worthy of love was a major foundational element. Surrendering this opens the floodgates to all manner of things that spread the opposite of love, and the shield of faith that God loves you anyways, that's just too inconsistent for feeble humans to hold onto as a means of keepthing a check on the emotions that trigger negative behaviors.
Am I incorrectly extrapolating meaning from the quote above? Or is it true that to deeply embrace Christianity you must surrender the idea that you are worthy of love to come to the cross empty-handed?
My suspicious nature thinks this methodology is much better suited to recruit soldiers to die for you in the crusades than to help create a harmonious and civil society.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 06:20pm PT
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I was pondering this a bit in the shower, and found a way to reconcile the good impacts of Christianity with my belief system.
I think the key thing is how to achieve emotional independence, in the sense of how to be able to act in accordance with ones intentions without being derailed by emotional triggers. The need to be loved, to feel worthy of love, is a very deep need that can trigger amygdaloid fight/flight responses which overrule the conscious preconceptions we have. The Christian Way of dealing with this conundrum is to train one's self to accept not being worthy of loved, not needing love from anyone except God which is there as a fundamental article of faith and hence pretty robust.
The way I have learned is to provide love to myself, to develop my inner sense of being worthy of love, and through this exercise become more resilient to external triggers that would undermine that idea.
In both cases, the outcome is to be resilient to messages that, upon removing layer after layer, boil down to "you are not accepted, you are not loved, you are not worthy of love."
So I'm back to accepting that Christianity is a path to meeting these fundamental human needs. But, it still comes with the baggage of forming a community among like-minded individuals at the expense of including folks of different faiths. Though it does seem that modern branches of many religions emphasize the practical element of accepting those of other faiths, which bodes well for humanity.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 06:26pm PT
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God loved us so much that He send His “Beloved Son” Jesus!
1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.
In the parable of the prodigal son, the father is running out to meet him!
Mark 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
We can't save ourselves!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 17, 2016 - 09:39pm PT
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Does this imply that, in order to earn God's love and acceptance, you must surrender the idea that you are worthy of love?
Firstly, his "comin to Jesus with empty hands.." is confusing, to me too. Maybe his meaning is coherent with "surrendering"? That's my feeling anyway.
You used surrender in the above quote, but prolly inappropriately. What I see most people here are getting wrong is they think one has to do good to gain God's favor. Let me tell you this, EVERYTHING that's good is God's favor! Even the good that's done by the wicked tax collectors. Ha. Where secular's get it wrong is in thinking God punishes one for doing bad! He hasn't contorted that kind of power since He left Adam in the garden.. These days His only ability for discipline of sinners is to merely turn His back, and allow the lawless to be tempted by the hangman.. Another words, your in satan's hands. Jesus said, " I come here not to claim the ""righteous""(if you will), the ""good do'ers"", the ""secular saints""(if I might add), I Jesus come here as a doctor for the ill, the downtrodden, the "law breakers"". If you read back to go-B's quote from John. You can find the accumulation for the need for Jesus. The law is cut and dry! But if one is ready to concede AND forgive, then He is also. There is no earning!(another secular atrocity!) once one is "saved", all good deeds are realized as benefit to ,God. And are done IN HONOR! Not as a stepping stone. So in corralling this all, action gets you nowhere, it's merely a statement of where your at. Jesus' words are above that. He's dealing with your soul, your everythingness.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 10:05pm PT
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"comin to Jesus with empty hands.." or hat in hand, fessing up, without excuse, come clean, confessing!
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 17, 2016 - 10:58pm PT
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1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Yep. This is the new "law". Praise our hevenly Jesus for Grace!
His is the root, and we's are the branches.
Amen.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 18, 2016 - 12:43am PT
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"The Beings, or the Being, collectively called Elohim, who first (if ever) pronounced the cruel words, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live for ever . . . " must have been indeed the Ilda-baoth, the Demiurge of the Nazarenes, filled with rage and envy against his own creature, whose reflection created Ophiomorphos. In this case it is but natural -- even from the dead letter standpoint -- to view Satan, the Serpent of Genesis, as the real creator and benefactor, the Father of Spiritual mankind. For it is he who was the "Harbinger of Light," bright radiant Lucifer, who opened the eyes of the automaton created by Jehovah, as alleged; and he who was the first to whisper: "in the day ye eat thereof ye shall be as Elohim, knowing good and evil" -- can only be regarded in the light of a Saviour. An "adversary" to Jehovah the "personating spirit," he still remains in esoteric truth the ever-loving "Messenger" (the angel), the Seraphim and Cherubim who both knew well, and loved still more, and who conferred on us spiritual, instead of physical immortality..."
The Secret Doctrine p 243
Praise to The Lightbearer for waking humanity so that we might know good and evil. Amen.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Sep 18, 2016 - 04:14am PT
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What is "good" anyway? If someone doesn't know good from evil, then they lack empathy, not God.
You don't need religion to be a good person.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 19, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
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What is "good" anyway?
Mark 10:17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
...(We like Peter have our sights low though he thought he gave a good answer!)
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him,and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
...(In the parable of the good Samaritan Jesus shows us what true goodness is like! The audience Jesus was talking to held Samaritans with disdain but he was the one that helped the the victim, cleaned his wounds, brought him to the safety of the inn, paid and left an open tab so he could recuperate! Above and beyond us!)
Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Revelation 5:1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
...(Jesus is good, i.e. God)
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
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That New Testament is quite a nice artifact. I bet it was even more inspiring before the Romans and then later the various Popes' twisted it with really bad marketing copy.
It's pretty fun and I respect your right to get into it.
However, you can postulate a supreme being and humble yourself in hopes of a better life, or you can get busy and assume responsibility for creating a better life for everyonne and everything in all directions like you own the place (with humility and respect for the fact that everyone else really owns the place). The best way to help the Lord is to help yourself and then others. Getting everyone to bow down doesn't heal the sick or brighten up the poor or turn the hopelessly sad to see that there is a future.
I wish I was bouldering again with Jeff like so long ago. He was a fun guy. I would have loved to have a long discussion with him on this subject at the bar. Perhaps he would still be here.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
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Why believe in God?
Because he's the only being vengeful enough to have created Trump. We shall pay for our sins.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:35pm PT
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If someone doesn't know good from evil, then they lack empathy, not God.
You don't need religion to be a good person. I agree using my definition of good. What's yours?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
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Spurgeon, Charles Haddon
"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Galatians 5:25
The two most important things in our holy religion are the life of faith and the walk of faith. He who shall rightly understand these is not far from being a master in experimental theology, for they are vital points to a Christian. You will never find true faith unattended by true godliness; on the other hand, you will never discover a truly holy life which has not for its root a living faith upon the righteousness of Christ. Woe unto those who seek after the one without the other! There are some who cultivate faith and forget holiness; these may be very high in orthodoxy, but they shall be very deep in condemnation, for they hold the truth in unrighteousness; and there are others who have strained after holiness of life, but have denied the faith, like the Pharisees of old, of whom the Master said, they were "whitewashed sepulchres." We must have faith, for this is the foundation; we must have holiness of life, for this is the superstructure. Of what service is the mere foundation of a building to a man in the day of tempest? Can he hide himself therein? He wants a house to cover him, as well as a foundation for that house. Even so we need the superstructure of spiritual life if we would have comfort in the day of doubt. But seek not a holy life without faith, for that would be to erect a house which can afford no permanent shelter, because it has no foundation on a rock. Let faith and life be put together, and, like the two abutments of an arch, they will make our piety enduring. Like light and heat streaming from the same sun, they are alike full of blessing. Like the two pillars of the temple, they are for glory and for beauty. They are two streams from the fountain of grace; two lamps lit with holy fire; two olive trees watered by heavenly care. O Lord, give us this day life within, and it will reveal itself without to thy glory.
...Heavenly minded and earthly good!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 19, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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IMHO, morality is a human belief process that helps us work together, because we're more effective working together than individually.
Theres an entire branch of philosophy dedicated to the study of morality who'd probably find your claim that "good is good" is a little, uh ... underdeveloped.
A young child at school was playing with sticks with his friend. I tried to get him to explain what they were doing. These sticks are the good guys and those sticks are the bad guys. The bad guys stole some bread from the good guys, so now the good guys are hunting them down to kill them and get their bread back. I looked at him and told him "sticks are sticks," but he told me that my understanding of sticks was a little underdeveloped :-)
We come out of the box with the ability to form beliefs (the way that humans form beliefs) already baked in. Nobody really needs to teach us how to form beliefs the way that humans form beliefs.
We come out of the box with an ability to easily learn languages too, thanks to our evolved Broca's area. Which language, and which belief, we form probably depends on our environment and specific genetics. But our facilities and tendencies are already baked in, whether the moral belief we end up forming is "whites are superior to blacks" or "you should spend your resources on my dogs surgery", or any of the rest of humans diversity of beliefs.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 19, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
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Unfortunately (but maybe not), you can't help but believe what you do (mostly because of your early childhood experiences with respect to religion). Seems to me that if you want to change, you would have to start hanging out with different people. You can't do it yourself.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 19, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
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Egoistic altruism per Selye.
Hierarchy of Needs per Maslow.
Secular ethics per Jesus and Gyatso.
Civil stoic philosophy per Aurelius.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 20, 2016 - 09:42am PT
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Life, liberty, & freedom give it to me...
CHARLES SPURGEON
"The liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free."
Galatians 5:1
This "liberty" makes us free to heaven's charter--the Bible. Here is a choice passage, believer, "When thou passest through the rivers, I will be with thee." You are free to that. Here is another: "The mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed, but my kindness shall not depart from thee"; you are free to that. You are a welcome guest at the table of the promises. Scripture is a never-failing treasury filled with boundless stores of grace. It is the bank of heaven; you may draw from it as much as you please, without let or hindrance. Come in faith and you are welcome to all covenant blessings. There is not a promise in the Word which shall be withheld. In the depths of tribulations let this freedom comfort you; amidst waves of distress let it cheer you; when sorrows surround thee let it be thy solace. This is thy Father's love-token; thou art free to it at all times. Thou art also free to the throne of grace. It is the believer's privilege to have access at all times to his heavenly Father. Whatever our desires, our difficulties, our wants, we are at liberty to spread all before him. It matters not how much we may have sinned, we may ask and expect pardon. It signifies nothing how poor we are, we may plead his promise that he will provide all things needful. We have permission to approach his throne at all times--in midnight's darkest hour, or in noontide's most burning heat. Exercise thy right, O believer, and live up to thy privilege. Thou art free to all that is treasured up in Christ--wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. It matters not what thy need is, for there is fulness of supply in Christ, and it is there for thee. O what a "freedom" is thine! freedom from condemnation, freedom to the promises, freedom to the throne of grace, and at last freedom to enter heaven!
...hallelujah!
It takes one to know one, Elvis the King, and Jesus the King of Kings...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf0vJiyeLIo&list=RDNf0vJiyeLIo&index=1
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