Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
"What if you family had been pushed from their lands by some immigrants and squeezed into refugee camps, subjected to searches, roadblocks and air attacks? Suppose an Israeli sniper killed your son in your olive field?"
Let's continue this story, Karl.
Now you and your family live in a camp and across a river you see "the Man" and his family enjoying your land. You hate him and you want to kill him.
The Man has a machine gun and a sniper rifle and you don't have any weapons. You loudly tell everyone that you will kill him and his family--just wait and you will find a way.
You build a slingshot. It is powerful enough to kill a person but not very accurate. Every day you shoot over the river at him and his children. The river is wide and they are far away. Most of the time you miss but occasionally you get lucky. You maim one of his children.
He tells you stop shooting your slingshot at him and his family or he will shoot you. You tell him that he stole your land and killed your son. You tell him that you will kill him and his family. You keep shooting your slingshot at them, while using your own children as a human shield.
The neighbors get both of you to agree to a "truce" for several months but when it expires you refuse to renew it. Right after the truce expires you spend all night shooting your slingshot at the Man and his family, again hiding behind your children. You are unable to hit the Man but you maim one of his children.Also, you start building stronger, more accurate slingshots and order a hunting rifle over the Internet.
The next morning, the Man takes his sniper rifle and machine and... finish the story.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
Those 2 photos are from the list of the link you made above, I am pretty sure, radical. Somebody posted the link on this thread about 2 pages back.
It was a very powerful set of photos and I think just having the link was too easy for people to ignore. More of those photos should be posted outright.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
I See a lot of talk about Hamas here but all the same issues and conflicts were present before Hamas even existed and later when the PLO was in charge.
Israel had taken a lot of land and pushed a lot of people into bantustans many years before the first suicide bombing.
Personally, I can't understand why Hamas would keep firing lame rockets that never hit anybody at Israel every day when they know this is the response they'll get. I'd have been tempted to suspect that it was Israeli spies shooting the rockets to justify the response but hey, I'm not hearing any denials from Hamas?
So it kinda boogles the mind. Why not act a bit straighter so world opinion can justifiably be on your side? Tempted to think it's all about pride and face. Not to be wimps in the face of the world. More likely, they "need" Israel to violently pound them so their case will be on the world stage rather than slowly wasting away in sealed off refugee camps that the world assumes constitute a viable palestinian state.
Peace
Karl
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
Tempted to think it's all about pride and face
It's all about religion and racisim, just read their charter.
There was a chilling special on tonight about one of the sons of one of hamas' founders that now lives in the US.
Hamas is a violent islamic terrorist group that has slaughtered far more Palestinians in the last few years than the Israelis have in the last decade. Over 400 Fatah functinaries in a single week. With gratuitous torture thrown in for good measure.
There has been no outcry from the rest of the arab world for a reason. It is a war against Hamas, not the Palestinians and Egypt, Jordan and the Saudis' all know it and tacitly approve.
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
|
|
Good questions Karl. Mexican "machismo" doesn't come even come close to the Arab variety, honed by hundreds of years of "warrior" identity-cultivation required for survival, ironically, often against other Arab groups.
Add to that the Islamic religious doctrine of Salvation heavily based upon legalistic perfectionism. The only sure bet to paradise is martyrdom.
Most of us can find alot of violence in our heritage and plenty of religious oddity as well. As to vain pride, I see it in the mirror daily.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
TGT writes
"There has been no outcry from the rest of the arab world for a reason. It is a war against Hamas, not the Palestinians and Egypt, Jordan and the Saudis' all know it and tacitly approve. "
Seems reasonable the the Arab world seems to have given up their outcry long ago. Even when Abbas was in power, the Israelis didn't give him support nor concessions and so he couldn't deliver. There was little pressure from the US or the Arabs either.
Seems to me that the Arab world has seen the writing on the wall that the US has them by force, economic or military and that messing with Israel is a lost cause as well, so best to stay out of it.
One of the changes brought about by the end of the cold war. Sad thing is, many Arabs are still pissed at the injustices and so, since the US, UN, and their own governments sit idly, they turn to Al Queda and other militants.
If we had a credible process in place it might be different
Peace
karl
Peace
Karl
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
What Karl said. What benefits has the Palestinian Authority received for the concessions it has made?
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
The Face of Gaza.
The Future of Gaza.
Where do you go?
What do you remember?
Let's not lose our heads while so many others already are!
WAR IS EASY LIFE IS HELL!
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
|
|
Two literary essays from the BBC, an Israeli writer and a Palestinian:
The World Today asked two writers: one Palestinian and one Israeli, to write an essay on the situation in Gaza.
The first is by an Israeli writer in London, called Daphna Baram:
Thirty-four children were killed in the first week of air strikes
"Silly children why do you die? Why do you die on TV? We took out our settlers, put a wall around you, locked you in, and still you are ungrateful. Cant you understand our need to bomb you? Why do you die on TV? The world is all against us, it always will be, why cant you help us a little, why do you die on TV?
Your suffering masks our historical rights, your ghetto makes ours forgotten, you are the new martyrs, and whats left for us, how dare you die in anonymous mass, well send all our air force to punish you now, how dare you die on TV.
The public is calling for crushing you down, elections are due its a war of survival. It's our homes we defend its our natural right, its the chair in the government for which we will fight, if you dont understand, we shall show you our might, why do you die on TV?
You have to appreciate, time is now scarce, soon enough the tide is to turn. If you will in your cruelty make us march in, and our soldiers, our children, will start dying in your narrow allies, our people will turn on us as swiftly as sin. The gung ho cries would stop, a new circle will begin: what are we doing there? Who sent us in? What is this folly? Why cant we just win?
This is why, silly children, we dont mean to kill you, but we need you do die fast, we need you gone as long as our permission lasts, we need your parents to learn to not mess with us. Cant you do us this favor, for the sake of peace and trust? But please do not die on TV.
We tried it in Jordan, we tried it in Lebanon and when it failed we tried again. No one could blame us for lack of persistence; if our method is broken why fix it? It is your responsibility to make it work at last. It is your responsibility to make us right.
And you have no-one but yourselves to blame if you keep defying us, you have no-one but yourself to blame for turning our claim for victimhood into a farce. It is your fault that we expose out children to your pathetic rockets; it is your fault that not enough of them die to make us look good on TV.
We want to stop, we really do, but you are binding our hands. Why do you enrage us so, why do you die; why do you die on TV?"
End of Section
The second essay is by London-based Palestinian writer, Ghada Karmi.
The beach may look idyllic but no foreign tourist can visit
I stood looking out at an azure blue sea, waves gently lapping against the shore in languid succession. The sky was clear blue as far as the eye could see and the pale sandy beach sloped gracefully into the water. It was a view from the best travel brochure, the perfect beach holiday. Only this was no Riviera - this was Gaza, one of the poorest, most crowded places on earth.
Earlier that day, I had gone for a morning walk along the empty streets, I might have been in India, Cracked pavements , mounds of rubble and sand, overflowing garbage cans. A young boy passed me by, barefoot, sooty black with dirt, his blue eyes and fairish hair suggested his normal complexion was pale. A grubby t-shirt covered his thin angular frame.
In the air, a stench of seaweed and sewage - from the Jewish settlements that discharge raw sewage into Gaza. This was summer 2005, on the eve of Israel's much vaunted withdrawal from Gaza.
When my parents knew it; long before Israel's establishment, it was the fruit basket of Palestine. A place of fertile soil, flourishing orange grove, where flowers carpeted the ground and the scented air each spring. Long ages before that, it had been the home of ancient civilisations, a crossroads for travellers and a haven for visitors and pilgrims.
Who would guess, amid the carnage and destruction of today that this prosperous place once, with ordinary people, leading normal lives? Now Gaza is a prison, surrounded by fences, fitted with sensors and watchtowers, cut off. The psychological effects of isolation can be imagined.
Devoid of contact with other communities - even its own, denied travel to other places, there is little room for news or fresh ideas. Unsurprisingly, society is closed, religious and conservative. Extremism, conspiracy theories and suspicion thrive in such environments and Gaza is prey to all of these.
Decades of Israeli occupation has led to plunder of its resources and impoverishment. The wonder was that it was still functioning at all when I saw it and that its people still retained a spirit of endurance and humanity.
I was repeatedly struck by their warmth and kindness, as well as their defiance in the face of one of the harshest regimes of colonisation in history. I cannot begin to imagine their condition now.
|
|
Bertrand
Trad climber
SF
|
|
And? Bruno, do you think this "Daphna Baram" in any way represents the case for Israel's defense?
That "essay" reads like one written by a London-based apologist with a 6th grade education.
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
|
|
Glad you read those Bertrand. No, of course I don't think the first essay to be representative of anything but dissenting voices within Israel.
There is a crucial point being made and I wonder if you missed it: It is a mistake to assume a simplistic view of both Israel and Palestine.
What cause is served by casting rash, demeaning judgements of academic accomplishment? All truth is not necessarily polemical in nature. I was saddened immensely before going to bed, by the compelling photo post of Philo's. What a tragic Christmas season this has been. At such times, I confess, I do search out emotive truths and strengths, most notably, "The Lord's Prayer."
In your original Termite post, you, yourself used the terms Hamas and "Palestinians" as though they are one and the same. I 'm glad to see you've edited it now (our loose forum policy is to indicate our edits, by the way).
Recognizing the actual state of affairs demographically as well as connecting empathetically to universal, flawed Humanity, is a starting point for intelligent discussion, rather than a "good guys/bad guys" delusion. I expect you agree. Thanks, Bruce
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
ok, maybe the 30 minute claim is not accurate, but, as has been noted, at least the israelis try to warn their enemies, which is an excellent example of the absurdity of the original post
golly gee, we should have warned hitler we were landing at normandy...after all, our attempts to liberate europe are no better (or worse as some of you might prefer) than hitler's attempts to conquer europe...let's see, how does one win a war against evil? ah, by making nice...we should have just let hitler have the sudetenland and the rest of czech and poland...wait, we did, but he still invaded france...ah, who cares about france...the point is, hitler was no threat to us and he was just responding to the "oppression" of his people by the rest of europe (not to mention those evil jews)...you know, if we had just given our support to hitler rather than the people he was attacking, we could have had peace and we probably could have ended war forever because now we'd all be friends (see, hitler was friends with the arabs in palestine, too) and there certainly wouldn't be any jews screwing things up again and again...war! what is it good for? absolutely nothing!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123111998269852943.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275324.html
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
|
|
Really interesting post Dingus. I once thought "Lame Duck" was the discription of a crippled bird.
Now I wonder if it is a modified verb.
|
|
Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
|
|
Good Morning Bookworm,
I do think you bring up the central concept in all this--the proposition of a "Just War."
Unfortunately, the waters are muddied by the selective failure to recognize that history is dynamic. (Arab political allignments in WWII, since after all, Germany and Japan are now allies.)
The photographic post is interesting to me personally as I was once a journalism student. True some things are not at all as they appear, but on the other hand some things are exactly as they blatantly appear. You are free to take you trad cam over there and show us how it really is. It just seems a mean-spirited addition to this thread in the face of the recent photos posted above. Are you suggesting these photos of human beings crushed in rubble have been photo shopped? I know you have a heart somewhere in that chest cavity. Cardio is crucial for enduro sends!
It might be more appropriate to explore the limitations being placed upon journalists in Gaza and to respectfully note the extreme dangers some of them are willing to risk, from both Israeli shrapnel and showboat beheadings. Bruce
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
I am more than sick and tired of those few who insist on perpetuating some deplorable lies and disinformation. Regardless of how many times they are presented with credible information to the contrary they cannot let go of the narrative they have been force fed most of their sheltered lives. To lend weight to their flimsy beliefs they quote war mongers who have a vested interest in continued conflict.
They want to insist that the IDF is doing EVERYTHING it can to minimize civilian casualties. Nothing could be further from the truth. Civilian death and destruction has by design has been maximized.
They continue to insist that the IDF is acting morally as they give fair warning. To be clear ten minutes is not fair warning to civilians. The reality is there is rarely 3 minutes given between the "knock" and the destruction. It is just enough time to create the horror of chaos. Then after watching where every one runs they target those areas.
They doggedly cling to the absurd notion that Hamas uses their own children as human shields. Thus they can justify the unjustifiable. They wanton destruction and death of civilians in a colonial war of acquisition. If you seriously think these desperate humans would use their own children as human shields then I would say your grasp of reality is at best questionable. But it is vastly more comfortable to believe what the perpetrators of this humanitarian crisis want you to believe. Facing the truth and your own complicity of silence is painful. But not quite as painful as watching your family blown to shreds or being crushed in the rubbled remains of your home.
And Lord knows we wouldn't want any war mongers to feel any discomfort now would we?
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
Karl Baba said: Personally, I can't understand why Hamas would keep firing lame rockets that never hit anybody at Israel every day when they know this is the response they'll get. I'd have been tempted to suspect that it was Israeli spies shooting the rockets to justify the response but hey, I'm not hearing any denials from Hamas?
So it kinda boogles the mind. Why not act a bit straighter so world opinion can justifiably be on your side? Tempted to think it's all about pride and face. Not to be wimps in the face of the world. More likely, they "need" Israel to violently pound them so their case will be on the world stage rather than slowly wasting away in sealed off refugee camps that the world assumes constitute a viable palestinian state.
Yeah I agree with that sediment too Karl, and the Arabs in Palistine keep saying THEY are at war with Israel too. This explains the rockets everyday. So the Israelis blockaid the place to keep munitions out. Like this Iranian ship they caought trying to smuggle in 50 tons of armaments in 2002. http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2002/Seizing%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20weapons%20ship%20Karine%20A%20-
Curious.
I read Al Jeezera and from what I read they are saying is it looks like they only want Israel gone and the Jews there dead if they are not gone. Dead and gone. Gone and dead. Their women and children too. Thats what it appears they want. Then when the land of Israel is no more, they will have peace. After the Jews are dead and gone. Then peace. Of course they say they don't believe in targeting civilians, yet 90 percent of their actions counter that lie. They often recruit walking bombs to walk into a crowded public spot and blow up all the men, women and children that are there. They toss rockets that have no guidance controls right into cities. Hoping that there are many deaths.
Interestingly, the US killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of civilians during WW2, many many many women and children. We killed the kids, dogs and even their goldfish and pet birds too. We burned their homes and leveled cities in at least 3 continents, maybe more. We killed them all. Yet rare is the apologist saying we should NOT have fought at all. During the last war, which is still going on, we killed and continue to kill women and children too. We try hard to not do this, but it is unavoidable. War sucks. Peace is the answer to avoidance.
-However-
There are 2 sides to every story, in this case there may be 5 or 6. I hope for peace there as well: as do ALL OF US HERE, but it takes 2 to tango and 2 to become friends. Perhaps the Lion will not lay down with the lamb anytime soon: in which case, you have to choose a side. That is what many here have done. That is what the US has done. Obama has been very silent on the invasion. He too, will eventually choose a side Coz. That side will be with our friends in Israel. He too, will hope for peace.
But that takes 2 sides.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Dingus
I think folks are blowing smoke about Iran having a major involvement. Iran is MUCH more connected with Hezbollah and Lebanon, not Hamas in Gaza.
And somewhat the opposite might be going on. Iran would certainly be upset seeing the Gaza strikes and both the Lebanon invasion a few years back and this Gaza invasion could have been attempts to draw hostile forces into attacking and thus creating the justification for a wider war. Israel doesn't feel they have the international cover to just go bomb Iran. Even Bush said no to it.
peace
Karl
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
So the abusive husband returns to his wife and kids frustrated from another day of failure to make those, deemed most responsible for his sufferings, pay the piper.
Drunk on booze and besotted by a fear of impotence he turns the rage of his vengeful heart to the only victim anyone could justify. Damn that barking dog chained in it's cage! "I fed you yesterday now STFU!". "LOOK"! he screams for all to hear "at the bite mark on my hand". "F*#kin' Bitch DESERVED it!" his righteous rave on the way home from a shallow rubbled grave.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
Karl, my link has this story about Iran/Palistine weapons:
"Seizing of the Palestinian weapons ship Karine A
January 4, 2002
©2002
Weapons seized on the Karine A
(Jan 4)
A ship carrying weapons intended for the Palestinian Authority was captured in the Red Sea by Israel's Navy and Air Force. The boat's cargo included 50 tons of advanced weaponry including Katyusha rockets, rifles, mortar shells, mines and a variety of anti-tank missiles. Senior figures in the Palestinian Authority were involved in the smuggling.
On January 3rd, the Israeli Navy seized control over the Karine A ship that was sailing in international waters on its way to the Suez Canal.
The shipment included both 122 mm. and 107 mm. Katyusha rockets, which have ranges of 20 and 8 kilometers respectively. It also contained 80 mm. and 120 mm. mortar shells, various types of anti-tank missiles, anti-tank mines, sniper rifles, Kalashnikov rifles and ammunition. From Gaza, the 122 mm. Katyushas could have threatened Ashkelon and other coastal cities; while from the West Bank, Ben-Gurion International Airport and several major Israeli cities would have been within their range. The shipment also included rubber boats and diving equipment, which would have facilitated seaborne attacks from Gaza against coastal cities.
Preliminary investigation of the crew members has revealed so far that the commanding officer of the ship is Colonel Omar Akawi. The ship was purchased by the Palestinian Authority, loaded with weapons by the Iranians and the Hizbullah, manned by Palestinian Authority personnel, with the aim of transfering the weapons it carried to the Palestinian Naval Police near the Gaza beaches.
Since October 2000, Adel Mughrabi, a major buyer in the Palestinian weapons purchasing system (with the assistance of the Palestinian Naval Police Commander Juma'a Ghali and his executive Fathi Ghazem), has been in contact with the Iranians and Hizbullah regarding a vast weapons smuggling operation for the use of the Palestinian Authority. This operation included the testing and purchase of ships, forming a sailing crew and appointing a commander for the team, as well as making arrangements as to how the weapons would be stored, loaded onto the vessels, and its journey until delivery to the Palestinian Authority.
Preliminary investigation of the team members arrested revealed that the Karine A ship was purchased by Adel Mughrabi in Lebanon, sailed to Sudan where it was loaded with regular cargo. The crew was then switched with the team members and in November 2001 sailed to Hodeida port in Yemen.
In December 2001 the ship sailed according to detailed instructions from Adel Mughrabi to the beaches of Iran near Qeshm Island. There a ferry approached it, most likely arriving from Iran, from which the weapons stored in 80 large wooden crates were transferred and loaded onto the ship. These weapons were stored in special waterproof containers produced only in Iran, which are floatable and are set with a special configurable system that determines how deep they are submerged, were prepared by Hizbullah personnel for smuggling to the Palestinian Authority. Included in the ferry team which transferred the weapons crates to the ship was also a Lebanese trainer, a Hizbullah operative who trained a diver from the ship's crew in configuring the floatation devices in Lebanon. The trainer was present for yet another refreshing training session prior to the sailing.
After completing the loading process of the weapons onto the ship, the ship had to divert to Hodeida port in Yemen due to technical problems. After crossing the canal, the ship was supposed to meet with three smaller ships that were purchased in advance and to unload the weapons onto them. According to the plan, the smaller ships were to leave the weapons near El Arish in Gaza, where the weapons were to be taken by the commander of the Palestinian Naval Police Juma'a Ghali and his executive Fathi Ghazem. "
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!