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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 11, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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The difference in perspective between Craig and Mad represent differences several researchers say exists in the definition of "liberty." Conservatives tend to define "liberty" as personal freedom to act without interference or outside force. Liberals tend to define "liberty" as the ability to act like others can act.
Thus, to a conservative, it doesn't matter how others act. If someone else can spend a year in the Ahwahnee, I don't care if I get to spend my money the way I want. If I want to camp in Yosemite for a month but am not allowed to do so, it's no comfort that no one else can, either.
To a liberal, it doesn't matter what I can do, as long as I can do what everyone else can do, or if I can't do it, no one else can, either. If I want a Porsche, but can only afford a Yaris, it bothers me if others can drive Porsches. But if no one is allowed ot have a Porsche, it doesn't bother me so much that I can't have one, either.
John
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Degaine
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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JEleazarian,
I'm sure it makes you feel good to have written that last post, but could you please cite any source or any proof of your claims?
Conservatives for at least the last 40 years have been trying to tell everyone how to act/not to act since - the most recent glaring example being homosexuality / gay marriage. The favorite pastime of the ultra-religious conservative is to tell others how to act and to do their best to lobby for legislation that codifies this.
Answer me this, is it more liberal (read left of center) or conservative (read right of center) organizations that try to tell people what they can and can't read (Huck Finn comes to mind of the top of my head)?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
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John, you forgot the corollary that if you are only functionally able to drive a Yaris then you
damn well don't want the Porsche driver whizzing by you in the right lane because you're
hogging the left lane.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 11, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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Deagine, I'd start with Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind.
He finds, summarizing numerous psychological studies, that those on the right tend hold five values, three of which those on the left also hold, but one common value, "liberty," gets defined differently depending on whether the subject is politically left or right-valued. That difference explains a great deal of the different policy prescriptions.
I agree that the views of the "Christian Right" don't follow Haidt's generalization. I also believe, however, that the "Christian Right" does not reflect a mojority of conservative thought, although I have no citation for that belief.
John
P.S. Good one, Reilly!
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 11, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Dudes got mad skilz.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 01:19pm PT
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John
did you read the rant
2) Most of your examples are not in the slightest sense "socialism". When I pay taxes that go to support a national military, the theory is that I am purchasing my OWN defense; I am personally getting the very "product" I'm paying for. The government is not taking my money, giving me personally NO benefit for it, and then simply giving that money to somebody else.
3) The military as a specific example is a terrible one, as that is actually something the feds are SUPPOSED to provide according to the constitution. So, as a fundamental part of me being part of this this NATION, I am constitutionally obligated to contribute toward the common defense of this nation. But I enjoy the VERY benefits I am paying for. By contrast, I am not obligated to ensure that the feds provide good roads or anything else like that. The constitution provided for a VERY FEW powers and responsibilities at the FEDERAL level, and EVERYTHING beyond those specified powers/responsibilities was to be retained by the states and people.
4) You actually are clueless enough to include Social Security and Medicare in the mix. Yes, those are examples of national socialism indeed! But they are also HIGHLY contentious, which means that by including them you are effectively arguing: "SINCE the introduction of those forms of socialism, we have been socialistic; so this country is socialistic." But the VERY POINT under contention is that we never should have gone down that path in the first place! Wilson and then FDR turned the nation toward socialism, and now it INCREASINGLY is. For you to say that "it's not going to lead to communism" is ridiculous! How FAR down the road of socialism do you have to go before it has effectively become communism? Are you psychic? We are MUCH further down the path than we were early in my lifetime. And Obamacare is a BIG additional step down the path. Ridiculous!
He didn't say anything about what your comment says.
He said we are on the road to communism just because we have SS and Medicare!!!
He doesn't want to pay for roads, he thinks we would be better off with millions in dire poverty, dying in the gutter.
It's a typical fear mongering libertarian failed ideology that never thought the whole plan out, because he forgot about the rest of the population of Americans, the ones that aren't loaded with money. It's greed and selfishness, and very anti-Christian, and very anti-democratic.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 11, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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Craig, I read the rant before you posted it. Probably because I have friends with such a broad spectrum of political beliefs, such as both you and Jeff (fattrad), and I like to check out ideological websites, I get inundated daily with emails from both left- and right-oriented organizations and sites.
I was speaking of guiding values for your political points of view more than the general view you were opposing in your last post.
John
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
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Economics is a science John
It's the right wingers that use anti-scientific economic principles that are thought up in right wing think tanks that help the rich and Corporations.
They impose these policies and then watch the debt go through the roof and blame it on over spending on the poor. Where's the science??
Just look up Reaganomics, it's based on fairy dust and magic, yet every right winger still think it's the only way to go.
There all 1000s of papers proving that it has destroyed the middle class and created the huge wealth distribution we now see.
Their economic plans are purely propaganda driven.
It's all about selfishness and greed.
Do we need our Government to be as selfish and greedy as the worst players in our country demand. The most greedy bastards, the richest tyrants, the evil underbelly bent on stealing from the Treasury seem to be the ones making economic policy for the Republicans.
and that's not a good thing.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 11, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
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mojority of conservative thought
Jeleazarian - love that phrase and its voodoo connotations! Glad that we don't have to take ourselves so seriously. Thanks for your posts!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 11, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
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"To a liberal, it doesn't matter what I can do, as long as I can do what everyone else can do, or if I can't do it, no one else can, either. "
John, that's a bullshit way to stereotype liberals.
I have liberal tendencies (in part) because I believe human beings should have personal liberty related to the choices they make in their relationships, religion, and a host of other issues where government & society has no business being involved. Today's conservative party is all about infusing their ideologic & religious 'values' into my life, and the lives of people I care about.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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You have lost touch with reality.
Reality can only be seen thru rose-colored Kumbaya glasses?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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Right wingers just cannot get their head around the concept of liberalism and socialism.
They know innately they are bad words because they were told that by the right wing misinformation machine, so they try and define them only to expose their gross misunderstanding of the words and ideologies.
We don't care if you drive a Porsche or Rolls Royce.
we don't hate the rich or envy them.
What we care about is that you pay your fair share of taxes and don't pull up the ladder behind you.
and don't spend your money on influencing (bribing) Congress so you can make more money while you squash other companies and send your factory off shore, or rigging the system, or spending money on smear campaigns, or rigging elections, there is nothing fair about that, it's just wrong.
Money should not buy policy or influence in our Gov, that is what the Founding Fathers wanted.
Let us climb the same ladder you used, you greedy bastard.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 11, 2015 - 02:24pm PT
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Craig fry I've lost all trust and respect for your logic and your guidebook..
ur gonna get this thread frozen..
also I sent you a P.M and accused me of spam.. so I guess the only way to talk to you is either here or through Guyman..
have a nice life!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
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John, I'm no "conservative," and I disagree with you that conservatives don't care what others do as long as "I can do what I want to do." Conservatives, much more than merely the religious right wing, do very much care about every detail of my life and how I spend it. Who got us the Patriot Act and established warrantless NSA wiretapping of every American? Who continually insists that this BS is "necessary" to keep us "safe," as if there could be such a thing?
NOT libertarians, of which I am most closely aligned.
He doesn't want to pay for roads, he thinks we would be better off with millions in dire poverty, dying in the gutter.
What a steaming pile!
I'm happy to pay for roads, just not giving the feds the right/responsibility to have anything to do with it.
"Millions in dire poverty, dying in the gutter"??? Here, in the USA? In the land of the cowed and the home of the sucklers? You have GOT to be kidding!
Okay, let's see the citations of all this "poverty" and the "millions" that are dying in the gutter.
What I see is a FAT family on food stamps, paying for their edible trash with MY money, while they can apparently still afford (on a separate receipt, of course) to buy a huge LCD TV from Samsung that would not even fit in my SUV.
They "can't afford healthcare," so MY rates go up 40.02 percent in one year to "help" these "poor, poverty stricken" people afford theirs. I don't care WHAT definitional games you want to play: "socialism," "communism," or WHAT you want to call it. In THIS country, I pay and pay and pay to "ensure" that the "underprivileged" can live UTTERLY irresponsible lives.
This isn't about roads. This is about people being RESPONSIBLE for the consequences of THEIR OWN lifestyle choices. And the fact that they remain capable of pumping out kids does NOT thereby put upon me some "moral" burden with unlimited risk-exposure.
And when the FEDS take it upon themselves to "level the playing field" with flat-out wealth redistribution, where my money goes straight into the pockets of other people to fund their irresponsible lifestyle choices, DON'T try to claim that that equates with the military or roads, where at least I get to enjoy SOME direct benefit of my money.
The FEDS have NO business being into MOST of what they've got their fingers in now. At least don't try to justify it as "righteous" or some other moral finger-wagging. It is theft, plain and simple.
Look, this is really, REALLY simple: If you can't afford to pay for your own food, then you can NOT afford (by ANY mechanism) a big-screen TV (and the monthly cable bill to go with it). If you cannot afford to purchase health insurance, then you can NOT afford to have yet another kid. You do NOT get to "do whatever you feel" on MY dime. First, get your hands out of MY pocket, and then we'll all rethink what the "bare necessities" really are.
**
Edit: And another point that just occurred to me regards immigration. I have NO problem with a wide-open sieve of a border. Let ALL the immigrants that want to come here come... on two conditions:
1) You come here and learn English. Generations of immigrants did that, and we ARE an English-speaking nation. Assimilate, and you'll do just fine.
2) STOP the welfare, Nanny-State. You don't get to come here in order to get firmly fastened onto yet another nipple. You come here and PAY your way. You work and strive and contribute to this nation rather than suckling on it.
As long as (1) and (2) are not satisfied, we MUST have tightly-closed borders and NO amnesty programs for illegal aliens (no, I will NOT adopt some PC euphemism for them). This nation cannot afford yet more mouths on teats. So, either do away with millions of the mouths, or do away with the teats. Your choice.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
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also I sent you a P.M and accused me of spam.. I don't know what Guyman said to you, sorry.
But after all the crap you've given me, can you see my point of view bro?
Don't like my guidebook, good for you, maybe hate for it will even be better!!! right!!
should I post what you sent me??
would that make you feel better?
I never accused you of anything, Anatasia warned me
how about this, just walk away, and we can be friends that disagree, how's that bro.
why would it be me that gets this thread frozen??
I see all kinds of stuff going on here, and it sure isn't me that is getting overly insulting or attacking.....
what I'm doing is debating, nothing more.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
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And when the FEDS take it upon themselves to "level the playing field" with flat-out wealth redistribution, where my money goes straight into the pockets of other people to fund their irresponsible lifestyle choices,
who wants to level the playing field??
That's pure crazy talk. Can you site any proof that there are plans to do this in Congress?
You sound like a Neo-Con, only your opinions matter.
It's all controlled by some special magic of something never explained, and only IF!! these people!!! would be like ME!!
their irresponsible lifestyle choices Who decides?? YOU???
You said so many great things above, it's going to take some time to digest and then of course, debunk.
It is very non-liberal or progressive. Kind of the exact opposite.
first of all, who cares if people become American citizens in mass
Will it hurt You in any way???
NO
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 11, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
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Who decides?? YOU???
Don't the results speak for themselves?
Let's see, meth addict... dirt poor. Surprise.
Have three kids while still on minimum wage? Pretty good way to screw your future.
Buy a house you can't possibly pay for, then get trapped with it so you can't move to where you're offered a better job?
Eat crap 'till your a balloon, then instead of getting it together and losing some weight complain because your health care sucks.
So many truths, so little time
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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This is how the typical conservative thinks of the Veterans, the hard worker that just saw his factory shipped to China, the mother that works 3 jobs at minimum wage to feed her kids, the disabled, the blind, the kids on the street, the hillbillies, the blacks, and the dirt bag climbers trying to have a youth before they get a full time job,,
Just put it into a nice talking point
Let's see, meth addict... dirt poor. Surprise.
Have three kids while still on minimum wage?
Cut them em all off, we have some evidence of wrong doing
Maybe education about NOT Having 3 kids would be the best policy, right?
Is not education the Only way to help the situation, since we don't want the Feds telling us what to do. We need to inform these people that having kids is a bad idea unless you have lot's of money
Are the Libertarians doing that??
Who is advocating this type of education??
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
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Who decides?? YOU???
No! Of course not! But NOT YOU either! That's the point!
In a FREE nation, people get to decide FOR THEMSELVES what lifestyle they want to pursue. They make their choices, and THEY enjoy ALL of the consequences of those choices.
What we have now is one giant "safety net" in which the consequences of irresponsible lifestyle choices are then "distributed" among all of us. That was NEVER the design of this nation, and the Nanny-State has only gained in reach and power since Wilson and FDR.
The POINT is that the FEDS do NOT get to decide our values for us! But that just means that the FEDS do NOT get to "distribute" the consequences of various value-choices among all of us either.
"Right wing neo-con"? Oh, ROFL. Your vast ignorance is showing. NOBODY reasonably reading what all I've posted could paint me as a right-wing neo-con! I'm an equal-opportunity hater! I hate BOTH parties and both the left and the right. NONE of the people "representing us" in government truly do, nor do the abide by their oaths of offices to "preserve and defend the constitution."
Look, I'm not saying you must have MY values. Just don't impose YOURS on me either! And THAT, my friends, means Libertarianism. Neither "right" nor "left." It means, let me enjoy ALL of the consequences of my value system, and YOU get to enjoy ALL of the consequences of yours. NO "distribution" of the consequences of lifestyle choices. NONE.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
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Are the Libertarians doing that??
Who is advocating this type of education??
I don't know when you were last in school, but this exact sort of education is widespread. And it's also a matter of common sense, except that BASIC sense is not common anymore... thanks to the Nanny-State who is REALLY teaching dependency, perpetual victimhood, and the infinite safety-net that WILL ensure that the real pain of OBVIOUSLY poor choices is "distributed" around to ALL of us, making for a lowest-common-denominator version of "wealth". What a sick joke.
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