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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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i'm going to go out on a limb here and declare that any society that dresses its children as suicide bombers is an immoral society...any society that celebrates murder is an immoral society...any society that promotes death for its children is an immoral society
i'm not saying all palestinians are immoral because i believe that most palestinians do NOT want their children to become suicide bombers, do not want anyone murdered (not even jews), and do not prefer death over life for their children...however, their society (at least in gaza...we'll see if fatah can recreate the west bank) has been corrupted by evil
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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First, I'd like to celebrate mtnyoung and Graniteclimber for actually having to resort to research and posting it. I did blow a few things off the top of my head to test ya'll but, in fact, the timings and who dun what of the 6 day war are in dispute (like the rest of the "facts" of this conflict.
I'd like to leave all if this with just one serious thought
That is ultimately meaningful to each and every person reading this
Not just theoretically
But as a reflections of our lives and souls.
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Israeli, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Palestinian, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised German during Hitler, what would I have thought and done?
The answer is simple. To the extent that you don't see plain wrongs that the side you are on now has done throughout time, to that extent you'd would be a likely Nazi, Muslim extremist, or Illegal Settler.
Because each side is human and we've all reflected our weakness in our history
Peace through opening your eyes to every side with courage
Karl
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Praises to Karl for bringing up the pertinence of Twain's Hatfields and McCoys! Aside from border sequence issues (which always revert to the illegal occupation of the Zionists at the generous invitation of Britain and the U.S.), Karl has repeatedly labored to describe truths of human nature which are ignored at great peril.
The genius Mark Twain makes me proud to be an American, and more importantly, should make us aware of universal human nature, especially our tendencies toward evil racism and lust for revenge.
"He was uncommon bright the Duke was, and he soon struck it. He dressed Jim up in KIng Lear's outfit- It was a long curtain-calico gown, a;nd a white horse-hair wig and whiskers; and then he took his theater-paint and painted Jim's face and hands and ears and neck all over a dead dull solid blue, like a man that's been drowned nine days. Blamed if he warn't the horriblest looking outrage I ever see. Then the duke took and wrote a sign on a shingle so-
'sick Arab-but harmless when not out of his head.'"
(The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Chapt. 14)
When I view intractable conflicts I often ask myself, Can anybody here be identified as the sweet Nigger Jim (sub-human), the Duke or the Earl (cons), or perhaps, Pap (lawless abuser)?
Or, referring to another title, in this mideast conflict, who is the Prince and who is the Pauper?
As you can expect from me, I'll quote Jesus Messiah: Are we able to treat others "as we wish to be treated ourselves?" Are we noble enough to see the massive complexities of the human soul and place ourselves humbly in the shoes of another?
Selectively and catagorically judging an entire people, is the apex of self- righteousness. We should resist such confident assertions and condemn blatant cruelty. Put more personally, how many of the hawks here have bothered to express any compassion for Philo's wife and relatives?
Bruce
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Skip wrote
"I'm pretty sure we beat the Germans in WW2 but I'll research it and get back to you.
In the mean time ponder this: the Germans even after getting beat are now our allies and do not want to go back to the NAZI days.
Skip"
Read my post again bro. By missing the point entirely, you would for sure be a Nazi if raised German in the 1930s. tell me I'm wrong and you'd see the evil]
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Israeli, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised Palestinian, how would I likely see things?
Ask yourself. If I was born and raised German during Hitler, what would I have thought and done?
This is where human instinct and a true religious understanding come into play. In each case you would know that harming another is wrong, but if they're coming to harm you or your family, you would fight.
I know you'll twist this thought into justifying the intifada, but the Israeli's didn't start it, they just want a peaceful homeland. Israelis have proven that they love peaceful Pals and love them, it's their faith.
What does the Hamas version of Islam preach? Kill jew occupiers who no longer occupy Gaza...in other words, kill jews.
even in other countries not involved...just kill jews, man!!!
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2103995.ece#OTC-RSS&ATTR=News
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95HN1H02&show_article=1
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i_THH84S9bUIhGGUr1Hqcm5ssBVAD95IF2QO0
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1177591142655
it's pretty clear.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Skippy has it. National Socialism came about to cure a depressed economy, depressed culture, and a faith in the 'chosen leader'.
sound familiar?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Naturally. If the Israelis attack them in highly congested areas, Hamas will be able to drag out lots of dead civilians for the media to photograph.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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You guys aren't getting it. You can talk all smug about intellectualizing it because you are afraid to admit the chilling truth.
If you were born and raised in Gaza, or had been dislocated by the Israelis there, you'd be conditioned by your culture and experience to buy the party line and go along with the program.
In Germany, you be one of the Nazis.
How do I know?
.. because of the one-sided uncritical views you've maintained in our political discussions. You've bought a huge pecentage of the US party line, but, like every society in the planet's history, we a bunch of selfish unrighteous misbehaving fools like the offenders listed above. They just got dealt different cards.
I imagine that if, after 9-11, Bush gave a speech that declared war in Islam, with some patriotic language and fear in the air, and nuked a half dozen islamic countries causing way more deaths than Hitler dreamed of, you'd have supported that decision with enthusiasm. You're lucky there is no Hitler to follow here.
It feels good to be in the superior race, too bad there isn't one to sign up with.
It comes from being a true human within
Peace
Karl
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Karl, you're making a great point trooper! The only solution is for one
side to be wiped out...to the last man. We'll be back here
year after year if not.
Anyone have the courage/evil to do it? No! So live with it!
Who do you want to be in the Superbowl...?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"It was lost amid the news of Israel's counterattack on Hamas in the last few days, but Hamas' leadership passed several new laws for Gaza in December. They've adopted the Shariah criminal code, which legalizes a number of medieval punishments including cutting off of hands, stoning, lashing and crucifixion. Possession of wine will now get you 40 lashes in Gaza City. Thus does Hamas express its solidarity with its patron and inspiration, the Islamic Republic of Iran."
both the palestinians and the israelis will be better off if hamas can be eliminated
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/08/to-what-end/
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- The United Nations says it is halting all aid deliveries to the besieged Gaza Strip. It is citing a series of Israeli attacks on U.N. staff and installations.
The announcement came shortly after the driver of a U.N. truck was killed by tank fire as he was headed to an Israeli border crossing to pick up an aid shipment.
The U.N. said the delivery had been coordinated with Israel. The Israeli army has not commented.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"If you were born and raised in Gaza, or had been dislocated by the Israelis there, you'd be conditioned by your culture and experience to buy the party line and go along with the program.
In Germany, you be one of the Nazis."
And we all know what happened to the Nazis:
Karl, the Germans who were "born into" Nazism where small children at the time of WWII. All of the adult Nazis made a decision to join the party because they liked Hitler's ideas or in order to get things from the party.
Either way, if you were a Jew or gypsy or one of the many other groups being exterminated in a concentration camp, you didn't care whether Hitler was "born into" his beliefs or not. You just wanted him stopped.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Corniss writes
"Karl, you're making a great point trooper! The only solution is for one
side to be wiped out...to the last man. We'll be back here
year after year if not. "
I'm sure you're not calling for Israel to be wiped out, and I don't think 1 billion Muslims would just roll over if the Palestinians were wiped out.
I guess in either case we might eventually unwind to a huge nuclear exchange where much of life on earth would end. That might be the solution you seek.
I'm glad we're trying other stuff first, however insincere, and glad you're not president!
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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GC writes
"Karl, the Germans who were "born into" Nazism where small children at the time of WWII. All of the adult Nazis made a decision to join the party because they liked Hitler's ideas or in order to get things from the party. "
Nonsense! Germans, of course, weren't born into Nazism anymore than we were born into "George Bushism" or "New World OrderIsm" But they were born to be a part of their culture and follow their country. The wrong leader came along and they went right along, not because they liked Hitler's ideas, but because people are sheep that move in flocks and react to fear and manipulation.
Again, conservative bros, how many of you, right after 9-11, would have stood by Bush if he just friggin Nuked 3-4 Arab countries? Can you really say you would have gone against the grain and the fervor the country was feeling and took action? or loudly protested?
That's how Hitler got folks on the program and once you're on the program, you go further down the rabbit hole.
You're not fooling anybody. MANY MANY Germans supported Hilter, and they weren't bad people either, just folks like you who supported their country and leader after some hard times.
How much more likely that if you were a Palestinian suffering Israeli humiliations that you would hate em?
And it goes both ways, many Israelis, of course, demonize the Palestinians. Golda Maier used to pretend they didn't even exist.
That's the way we're wired. We are loyal to our team and don't see our shortcomings. True here and now and true then.
The only ones capable of not going Nazi within the German Culture were the ones persecuted by them, or those who could put a critical eye into the actions and ideas of every side. They had conspiracy theories that perhaps a commie terrorist didn't burn the parliament building, and perhaps the Jews weren't being taken away to work camps.
So if you think America is the pure light that works selflessly for the benefit of mankind as a whole, you'd be islamic militant, a nazi, or a tool of whatever culture raised you. Don't be ashamed, you're in the majority.
But it should give you pause in your smug condemnation of whole cultures.
Just try, without weasling out, to imagine a scenario where invaders or immigrants became super powerful in this country and your family had to move to the nevada desert where they had to carry id cards, wait hours at checkpoints, and be treated like criminals. You were disarmed and efficiently separated from all the military resources that we have now. (they got em somehow) You can't travel to see your other family in the Utah Desert, and those guys shot your nephew while he picked fruit from your orchard.
Just how placid and compliant would you be?
Tell me
Don't put a bunch of "wait' or "what ifs,' let's say it happened. How would your patriotism and honor adjust to this new reality?
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Again, conservative bros, how many of you, right after 9-11, would have stood by Bush if he just friggin Nuked 3-4 Arab countries?
I wouldn't have supported that.
Can you really say you would have gone against the grain and the fervor the country was feeling and took action? or loudly protested?
Took action? Like what? I would have loudly voiced dissent.
Also, you seem to be comparing Bush to Hitler and the Nasties. Isn't that a bit unrealistic?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Karl your thoughts are well thought out and presented. I feel it a shame to mention that among these die hard flag waving ditto heads it is a moot point. The same essential question has been asked many times by many of us. The cannot or will not answer. For to do so would reveal the naked truth of the moral quagmire that would put them in.
They will respond with the tired; "well if my house was having thousands of rockets raining down..." Or better yet with a thoughtless cheer of; "go Israel".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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At least the former Israeli Prime Minister "gets' the question
""I would have joined a terrorist organization."
 Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian."
from
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm
A short page worth reading if you think the Israelis are so innocent. At least Fatty is semi-honest enough to put more of the cards on the table, which could be summed up as "We've got the power, we want the land, the other guys lost so they better settle for what they can get before it gets less and less"
peace
Karl
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