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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:54am PT
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Hello all,
I refrained from stepping into this for a number of reasons. I do not have the time or emotional energy to get into ethical debates and there are few things I despise more than arguing over the internet. However, I am speaking up at this moment before anything I said by email or in person gets misinterpreted and broadcast.
A few weeks ago, a friend and I wanted to climb a wall on a potentially rainy day from which we could bail if the skies opened up. I wanted to climb something I had not been on yet and Ten Days After seemed to fit the bill. It had been quite a while since I had last checked Supertopo because I had grown bored with the forum and was too busy with climbing and work to diddle around on internet forums. I had forgotten that this route had contraversy surrounding it.
My aim with this post is simply to report what I saw. I am going to report it, without judgment. These data will support some of the ES detractor's points and contradict some others.
 Each belay is 2 3/8" stainless 5-piece or wedge bolts. According to the FA topo, the 4th belay is the only one that has seen a single bolt addition.
All but three pitches retain their original hole counts. Pitch 4 has one less bole than it used to. The FA topo has 4 bolts, it now has 3. Pitch 6 had 2 FA holes and it now has one. Pitch 8 used to have 5, it now has 7. Over the past 28 years, the route has a 0 net hole count.
All lead bolts were 3/8" buttonheads or 3/8" wedge bolts with hangers. As the FA topo does not specify which had hangers on the FA and which did not, I cannot comment as to if there is a change. The FA topo does specify that 1/4" hangers are needed. This makes me suspect that these lead bolts have seen an upgrade in diameter.
There were accusations of bolting past 5.10 free climbing. I'm not sure I see where that could have happened for two reasons. 1) The FA grade of the route is 5.9 A3 and 2) When doing a speed ascent, I wear my free-climbing shoes and often free-climb past sections rated A3. If there was 5.10 free-climbing, I promise I would have not be standing in my ladders.
In sum, I found the route to be quite challenging and more enjoyable than I expected. Many of the fixed heads were in poor shape and I was surprised we did not pull any. The climbing was more physical and thoughtful than I anticipated.
Now, to address some of the concerns. All of the anchors are completely bomber and able to be rappelled off of. However, it seems to me like this was the case after FA except for pitch 4, which now has 2 bolts rather than 1. Adding this anchor bolt is certainly on the "schedule of offenses" but it is a lower-grade offense. With respect to increasing the diameter of lead bolts, I am of the personal opinion that, when the FAists were putting up the climb, a freshly-drilled 1/4" was as bomber as could be. Therefore, when it comes time for replacement, those lead bolts should be replaced with something that will hold up in the long-term, so the route falls into disrepair more slowly. This is, however, my opinion and not necessarily the consensus of the community. What is that consensus? I'm not sure we have a good response to this question. Regarding the added bolts on pitch 8: That's lame. I respect your opinion, Erik, but I personally believe the hole count of lead bolts should remain the same for routes of this nature. Regarding free climbing being bolted past? I am sure that did not happen to Ten Days After.
The previous paragraph states my opinions and is not necessarily a statement of community consensus. It is up to the community to decide on weather these infractions are grave enough. My personal opinion is that, with the exception of the added lead bolts on one pitch, this route maintains its character.
I refuse to participate in any name-calling or hateful dialog. I will respond only to questions about the state of the route and will not respond to pure slander. I consider Erik a friend and believe that if my friend does something that is stupid or misguided (BOR anchor? What were you thinking, dude?), the last thing you should do is scream at him over the internet. Also, I am speaking ONLY about Ten Days After and not any of the other climbs at question here.
All of the best to everybody,
Roger Putnam
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:05am PT
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Thanks for your input Roger Putnam ....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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Roger - to be clear, and I am asking you because you appear to be the only person who has climbed this route since Erik rebolted it:
Apart from replacing anchor bolts, the sum total of retrobolting is two added bolts on Pitch 8, increasing the number from 5 to 7.
Is this correct?
Could you see precisely how and where the two added bolts were placed?
Thanks.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Dec 16, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 16, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
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Erik, personal information about a family you have no business repeating has no value in this discussion. So LAME you would even mention that here. You need to delete it!!!!
It IS far beyond the pale and is even actionable. ES is stating as FACT rather than as mere opinion what is at best his own interpretation of family relations, and his "factual" statement goes to character, etc. of the participants.
CMac should ban this goofball once and for all, as this is not the first time ES has popped off with this sort of crap.
No loss to us, as ES actually refuses to engage in genuine discussion anyway. Instead, our attempts to discuss (which is really ALL we can legitimately do in an attempt to "reach" him) just feed his narcissism.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Dec 16, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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;-)
...
In other news,
It's cool seeing Grossman and Jensen agreeing on something.
Somebody should sh#t on his ropes.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Dec 16, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Hey Pete!
To reply to your questions: Yes, there are two bolts on pitch 8 that were not on the FA topo. There also was one less bolt on pitch 4 and on pitch 6. There is one additional bolt at the pitch 4 anchor.
How/Where is another question. I cannot comment on the manner of installation as it was ten years ago, and I had yet to put on climbing shoes for the first time. "Where" unfortunately escapes me. As I said, I made this ascent to go have fun in the mountains with my friend, not to clear up an internet kerfuffle. I sure don't remember bolts being near anything that seemed usable, except for perhaps some really flared copperheading. That is speculation though and must be treated as such.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 16, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
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"If its action that you want then we will undo your foolish and destructive bolting even though it is truly depressing work and you have left a real mess to clean up and restore."
While you are at it, could you please remove all the added bolts on Dihedral Wall? Todd Skinner added these bolts RIGHT NEXT TO perfectly good aid cracks, simply for the convenience of free climbing.
I queried Tommy Caldwell on these after his FFA of Dihedral Wall, and like the man opposed to capital punishment yet who stands in the village square to watch the hanging, he did use the bolts, although he did not add any of his own.
Thanks, Roger. From the sounds of what everyone was talking about here, you would think there had been a bolt ladder drilled next to a crack.
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klaus
climber
Slauson & Crenshaw
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
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Yeah, Skinner was a total D#@&%e. But he died doing what he loved, adding bolts to established routes
edit: ^^ btw, I did not call him a dick, there's a big difference. now go back to bashing Sloan
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
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a freshly-drilled 1/4" was as bomber as could be. Therefore, when it comes time for replacement, those lead bolts should be replaced with something that will hold up in the long-term, so the route falls into disrepair more slowly.
Makes sense. Is a 1/4 inch placed this year as strong as a 20 or 30 year old 3/8?
I pulled out a 50 year old 1/4 incher on lead this year, with little effort.
Eventually they are only good as decorations.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 16, 2015 - 09:55pm PT
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Yeah, Skinner was a total D#@&%e. But he died doing what he loved, adding bolt's to established routes
You know, perhaps you're right. I was taught never to say bad things about those who are deceased. They're not here to defend themselves. Not that you care.
Arne
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briham89
Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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Nice post rp3. Classy as always.
+1
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 16, 2015 - 10:40pm PT
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I had always intended to take Todd to task regarding his bolting on Dihedral Wall. There were perhaps half a dozen places where big ass 3/8" bolts were added RIGHT NEXT TO CRACKS.
For instance there are three or four bolts on the pitch above The Ledge, somewhere around 10. There are perfectly good sawed-off/offset pods in the crack, yet the bolts are a measured 16" to the right of the placements.
There is a famous shot of Tommy liebacking this pitch, with his finger in the pods, and if you look carefully at the photo, you will see the bolt out on the face behind him and to his right.
Sadly Todd died before I ever got a chance to talk to him.
Whatever Erik might or might not have done up on Washington Column - BELIEVE ME - pales in comparison to what Todd did up on Dihedral Wall.
Who else here as climbed Dihedral Wall? You will know what I mean.
Had I known the situation, I'd have brought up tuning forks. So as far as I know, the bolts are all still there. Someone needs to get up with the forks and a tube of epoxy.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Dec 16, 2015 - 11:30pm PT
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I had always intended to take Todd to task regarding his bolting on Dihedral Wall. There were perhaps half a dozen places where big ass 3/8" bolts were added RIGHT NEXT TO CRACKS.
For instance there are three or four bolts on the pitch above The Ledge, somewhere around 10. There are perfectly good sawed-off/offset pods in the crack, yet the bolts are a measured 16" to the right of the placements.
There is a famous shot of Tommy liebacking this pitch, with his finger in the pods, and if you look carefully at the photo, you will see the bolt out on the face behind him and to his right.
Sadly Todd died before I ever got a chance to talk to him.
Whatever Erik might or might not have done up on Washington Column - BELIEVE ME - pales in comparison to what Todd did up on Dihedral Wall.
Who else here as climbed Dihedral Wall? You will know what I mean.
Had I known the situation, I'd have brought up tuning forks. So as far as I know, the bolts are all still there. Someone needs to get up with the forks and a tube of epoxy.
Pete, do we really need to point out the difference between Todd and Erik?
And with bringing the deceased into it? And a true climbing spirit and pioneer?
Another new low on this thread.
I don't even like to post here anymore.
Erik
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 16, 2015 - 11:37pm PT
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I guess everyone else is wrong except Wooty and Mr. Pitons. Seems to me this goes beyond one or two routes.
Agree with Mr. E.
Mr. Skinner's (FLY ON) mistake on Dihedral Wall doesn't make Wooty right
Edit;
Sorry...Dr.Pitons
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 06:29am PT
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You're relating Todd Skinner to Hitler, Stalin and Hussein?
Man! He really must have been a dick to you
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spectreman
Trad climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 06:37am PT
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In my personal experience, Todd was a total dick to me and my partner.
Not hearsay, personal experience.
In my personal experience, Todd Skinner was exceptional and one of the most inspirational people I have met in my lifetime.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:01am PT
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you put the words in your mouth not me. maybe start your own thread about Todd Skinner and see how that goes
vvvvvvvvv plenty of written history about Mr. Skinners' transgressions. if I recall correctly there were many more comments praising as opposed to chastising
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:15am PT
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OK whatever. Most of us carry on some tradition through our walk; that's just one of mine. Aren't there real living people who might hurt from your valiant attempt to set history straight and maybe see you as a dick? Not that you care.
How bout back to the thread on topic?
Arne
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 17, 2015 - 07:31am PT
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The Dihedral Wall added-bolts are a little bit of dilemma in my book.
I don't think you're going to find many people placing sawed-off pins, while under full load in a 5.hard lieback. For me personally, I think free climbing is the pinnacle and vastly superior style than standing in ladders weighting your gear. But it leaves me conflicted, as I really don't condone changing routes/retro bolting.
So you have a bit of a problem - run it out? Pre-place the pins?
Then if you pre-place them, are you able to arrange adequate protection without filling the pods you need for hand/feet with pins/gear? And if you pre-place, now you are pink-pointing. You are also then encouraging future continued pin-driving/scarring which in turn can and does change the difficulty of the free route.
In lines that are more straight up and down, if you're pink-pointing anyway, you could always hang a really, really long sling off a higher piece (I do this all the time when sport climbing with kids, especially really young (read: short) kids who often can't make clips from the intended stances.)
But IIRC, the line of the Dihedral Wall angles pretty hard, making that option probably not viable on many pitches and on lines that are straight you then have to fight with the sling being in your way.
It's never black and white. How much do you value a free ascent or FFA of an El Cap route? How important do you place the redpoint v pinkpoint distinction and where does that lie compared to altering the aid climb experience?
Is there one, unbendable rule, or shades of gray depending on quality of the aid climb vs. it's quality as a free climb, how popular it is as an aid route? I don't know, probably need to take them case-by-case.
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