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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 07:56pm PT
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You sound like a conservative...?
I'm closest to a libertarian. I don't vote major party, as they are both utterly corrupt, self-serving, bought-and-paid-for non-representatives of US.
Chose value-agnostic, and get the big money out of politics, and you will see genuine freedom reemerge in this nation.
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John M
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 07:59pm PT
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You don't even believe in what Jesus taught.
I am positive that not a one of you bleeding-heart liberals actually put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is to even close to the extent that I do.
yes.. I see that you are correct. I'm not close. I gave much more.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
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why should we even take you seriously when you post this kind of crazy BS
Obumblecare DID invent (in this country) absolute risk leveling.
Who invented absolute risk leveling?
Obama?
WTF????
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 08:11pm PT
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I don't want it to be the responsibility of bleeding heart liberals to have to donate their hard earned money to make sure that Americans have food to eat, or a job, or health care, that is purely delusional thinking to have any expectation that would be enough to fix any problem what so ever,
We have tried that for the last 34 years and it has been a complete failure.
and we can't rely on churches either, they can't afford to help everyone in need, they are cash strapped too.
Only the government can do it, like it or not, we have evolved, we have an Constitutional obligation.
It's called contributing to a civilized society, you pay taxes, and those taxes take care of problems that are way bigger for you or the church to work out. You can't solve these problems with donations, that's Communism, and will come up way short when you add the 10s of millions that need help
Health Care is right, not a privilege.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 11, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
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WOW!!!!!, Those are the MOST exact posts I've EVER read on this forum!!!!
GOOD ON YA MB1
Edit, well except maybe that Generator Crack is V8.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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You don't even believe in what Jesus taught.
Of all the insane garbage I've seen used to attack me personally on this site, you for sure take the cake.
Then, TRY to pull yourself together and argue the points rather than the persons.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 11, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
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Craig u rock!
Edit: Page #89 my favorite In ur guidebook!
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John M
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 08:19pm PT
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Then, TRY to pull yourself together and argue the points rather than the persons.
when you stop insulting people I will stop insulting you.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 11, 2015 - 08:25pm PT
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Health Care is right, not a privilege.
The emergency room is a "right". What is not right, or "a right" is to go spend a couple nights at a hospital cause you got a tummy ache, or cause ur back aches.
What's the matter Mr. Fried, ur boss stop paying for your insurance? Welcome to the lower class. Better lay off the kool-aid and doughnuts! You gotta start takin care of yourself now.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 08:28pm PT
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Only the government can do it, like it or not, we have evolved, we have an Constitutional obligation.
Health Care is right, not a privilege.
You get NONE of that perspective FROM the constitution. Not a sliver of it.
Health care is a POSITIVE right, not a negative one. So, YOU have the right to go seek it, just as you seek to promote a host of your other values. Go for it.
But NOWHERE in the constitution can you get that you have a right that I pay for it... or ANY of your other values and lifestyle choices.
Our leaders gave an oath to defend the CONSTITUTION against all enemies, foreign and domestic... and the greatest threats to our constitution are people that want to cherry pick among their own values to get government to ENFORCE their own at the expense of others.
I don't agree with gay marriage, for example. But, guess what, I've never voted against it, nor will I. Government is not in the business of deciding who gets to do that.
I have and would always vote to support a woman's right to choose. Why? Because the moral status of the fetus is NOT explicated in the Bible (despite what most Christians think), and, EVEN if it were, the Bible is just one set of values among many... and our government is supposed to be value-agnostic.
YOU say that health care is a RIGHT. It really is not, but that aside, it is at most a POSITIVE right, which means that it is YOUR responsibility to seek it... not to have it provided FOR you at all of our expense. YOU think that government MUST enforce this particular value you have.
Okay, then why don't you agree that government MUST support the Christian set of values, including the RIGHT that all people have to attend church? That is actually a constitutionally-specified right (in a negative sense, which you simply cannot seem to understand). So, there it is IN the constitution, unlike your supposed health-care "right". So, on your model of rights, everybody should be FORCED to "buy that product" and be FORCED to attend church on Sunday.
Oh, wait, many don't believe in Sunday. Some believe in Saturday as a holy day. Others, Wednesday. What to do? What to do?
Well, I guess it's whatever the MAJORITY decide. Right? This is a "democracy," after all. Right?
So, let's ENFORCE the "right" of all people to attend church on Sunday. This nation would SURELY be more moral if EVERYBODY had to attend church on Sunday, and it's right there in the constitution!
Ridiculous! And the worst part is that you literally will be unable to grasp the principles that underlie WHAT goes wrong with my little thought experiment. Forced Sunday worship is EXACTLY on a par with the supposed "right" to health care. And IT is even explicitly mentioned in the constitution! And IT goes wrong in exactly the same way as does your supposed "right" to health care.
You do NOT get to cherry pick YOUR values and insist that the government fund THOSE instead of others... and ALL at taxpayer expense!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 11, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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Madbolter posts reasoned, if verbose, historically supported, accurate justifications for his position.
"progressives" can't respond and resort to invective.
Typical!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
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when you stop insulting people I will stop insulting you.
I have insulted NOBODY on this thread.
I have pointed out the flagrant inconsistencies in perspectives. YOU are the only one who has crossed the line into flat-out defamation.
I mean this, and I am serious about it: remove your post. Last warning.
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John M
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 08:32pm PT
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Go with God madbolter.. you may have the floor..
adios..
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
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The federal government was not put in place simply to protect "negative rights."
Yes it was....
No it wasn't....
Yes it was....
Pointless!
I have trotted out quotes and entire passages proving what the founders intending on this subject. You have not.
Ante up, or you are just posting your opinion, which, you not being a founder and all, has exactly zero weight in attempts to interpret the constitution.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 11, 2015 - 08:45pm PT
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Any adult that has studied the history of the Constitution and sampled the voluminous writings of the authors has progressed from an "elementary school child's" understanding.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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The Supreme Court has ruled many times on these issues - Social Security, Medicare, ACA, ... - and there is overwhelming evidence that your position is a gross misrepresentation of the Constitution.
Ahh, the trite appeal to "overwhelming evidence" without actually citing a shred of it.
The SCOTUS has not exercised "good behavior" for decades, and the fairly recent denial of "originalism" has literally cut the constitution loose from its moorings, setting it entirely adrift in a sea of public opinion, which is precisely the final blow to freedom that our founders feared.
Again, their "backstop" was that Americans would NEVER allow this sort of thing to take place. They imagined armed revolution well before this point.
Really, the debate comes down to one simple point: YOU and others like you, have taken upon yourselves to ENFORCE a particular value system. YOU are not value-agnostic, but are instead insisting that WE ALL must fund YOUR particular set of values and priorities, ones, I might add, that are not mentioned anywhere in the constitution nor can be reasonably brought under the commerce clause.
By STARK CONTRAST, I am not trying to ENFORCE any particular set of values on anybody. You want health insurance? More power to you. Go get it. You want an abortion? More power to you. Go get it. You want to get married to your same-sex partner? More power to you. Go get it. You want to smoke? More power to you. You want to have 20 children? More power to you? You want to rape small animals? More power to you. Do any imaginable drug? More power to you.
On and on. I don't CARE what you do and with yourself. What I want is for YOU to not step directly on MY toes as you do whatever it is you want to do. Leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone. We can agree together and locally about what roads we need, how many firefighters we want, and so on.
But the FEDS do not get to impose values upon us and make US ALL pay for them.
Why do YOU want force me to pay for YOUR values, when I don't want to do that to YOU?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
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I want to curb my health care costs.
I want to buy into Medicare, why should anyone stop me?
why are Republicans denying my freedom of saving thousands of dollars a year?
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John M
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
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the offending sentence is gone madbolter.. you can stop threatening to sue Chris or me. And no.. I don't owe you an apology.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
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why are Republicans denying my freedom of saving thousands of dollars a year?
Obviously because the only way you can do that is by stealing those thousands from other people.
You REALLY want health care to be accessible and affordable? Here's a short list of reforms that the feds actually HAVE constitutionally-granted powers to do, and that would save EVERYBODY thousands of dollars, while not costing "the people" anything in the form of direct theft:
1) Put caps on consumables and procedures costs. It is ABSURD that a syringe used to administer a shot at a hospital can cost hundreds of dollars! It is ABSURD that this or that drug can cost thousands per dose! On and on.
2) Force health insurance companies to become closely-audited non-profits. You should NOT be entitled in this country to make obscene profits on the misery and death of others.
3) Tie the profitability of drug companies to their actual R&D costs. Again, if health care is a "right" of any sort, as you say, then enforce that right by ensuring that obscene profits are taken out of the marketplace.
4) Severely limit the term of drug patents and insist that doctors must ALWAYS prescribe generics whenever they become available rather than the name-brand version.
The basic principle here is to, like politics, take corrupt and obscene profit out of the equation. Suddenly, a visit to the emergency room is billed in alignment with REAL costs, and where those costs are closely regulated.
See? I'm no "conservative" like hands-off, deregulating Rebumblecons. I firmly believe in the feds DOING one of the things they were actually empowered to do. Our founders did not imagine nor set up a laissez faire "free market" capitalism.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 11, 2015 - 09:21pm PT
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Libertarians want no government
Simply and laughable false.
I want the government our founders set up, NOT the one that's increasingly pitched off the cliff since Wilson and FDR.
I want the founders' constitution, NOT the finger-to-the-wind SCOTUS version that has become entirely decoupled from the CLEAR and demonstrable interpretation of the founders, federalists and anti-federalists alike.
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