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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 10, 2016 - 09:22am PT
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EPA causes a spill into the Animas River, willful negligence, with prior knowledge of the risks of digging into the Gold King mine - nothing.
Epa f*#ked up but let's be clear here, it was NOT the EPA that created the pollutants in the first place.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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Let's be clear about that - there weren't environmental laws or even knowledge in the 1890's - 1920's when the mine was built.
Come on...
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 09:26am PT
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The reason we socialize past pollution is because society benefited greatly from the industrial revolution, prior to knowledge of the effects.
Now both metal and coal mining companies pay a severance tax on every ton of ore / coal mined to pay for reclamation of abandoned mines. No one mentions that...
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 10, 2016 - 09:51am PT
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In some regards, yes.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 10, 2016 - 09:54am PT
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Wait wait wait... it's the MINER's fault, right?
Four posts later...
Epa f*#ked up but let's be clear here, it was NOT the EPA that created the pollutants in the first place.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Jan 10, 2016 - 09:54am PT
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"Frankly, I don't want my land – which includes all the federal land in the West – turned over to people who behave like you. I want to be free to hunt, fish, hike, ride my horse, my mountain bike or all-terrain vehicle, to picnic, camp, and to bird watch on the nation's vast tracts of federal ground, and I don't want to have to ask for your permission to do so.
"Your protest is nothing more than an elaborate tantrum conducted with firearms. If you actually won claim to any public lands, I think you'd intimidate and bully others the way you and your followers did in Nevada, and the way you are doing now. Furthermore, your family owes me and 320 million of my fellow Americans more than a million dollars in back grazing fees for using public land without paying your fair share.
"When I cut firewood on nearby Forest Service land, I purchase my 10-cord, personal use permit. I pay my camping fees. I buy my hunting license. I pay to park and use ramps on wild rivers where I kayak. I pay fees because they are used to improve recreation opportunities for everyone.
So I want you to go home and start paying me and your fellow citizens what you owe us. That's what good citizens and neighbors do.
—Chris Dempsey
http://www.hcn.org/articles/im-not-so-different-from-the-bundys-heres-what-id-like-to-say-to-them
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 10, 2016 - 09:57am PT
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Now both metal and coal mining companies pay a severance tax on every ton of ore / coal mined to pay for reclamation of abandoned mines. No one mentions that...
Severance taxes are pretty low in some states. In Nevada, for instance, it is
20˘ per barrel of oil or per 50,000 cubic feet of natural gas, as appropriate.
Fee charged for oil or gas drilling may not exceed $200 per permit.
Can you repair the environmental damage caused by an oil field for $200?
http://www.ncsl.org/research/fiscal-policy/2011-state-severance-tax-collections.aspx
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:09am PT
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Have you ever seen a wellpad after it has been reclaimed?
Did I say anything about oil and gas?
Back on topic - Bundy is a d#@&%e. The Hammonds have legal grazing permits and water rights. Different situation. What do they do about the BLM breaking the law?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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From tampons to french vanilla creamer: Armed Oregon militants update their occupation wish list
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/from-tampons-to-french-vanilla-creamer-armed-oregon-militants-update-their-occupation-wish-list/
http://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/685960657225793536/photo/1
AND
... rabid anti-government partisan Ammon Bundy deigned to accept a $530,000 small-business loan from that same government in 2010. The loan's guaranteed, and could cost taxpayers $22,419. Whether or not he's paid it back is unknown, at least to me. (He reportedly declined to answer emails on the subject.) But clearly his anti-governmental passion has limits. He thinks the federal government is way too big, but the part of it that lends money to folks like him is all right.
Bundy's family also benefited from the federal government in other ways. For one, if you grow cattle you have to feed and water 'em. Private landowners tend to charge a significant fee to let you graze your animals on their land. The feds charged Bundy's family a small fraction of the private market rate. (The Government reportedly charges 93% less than private landowners.) Bundy's father showed his gratitude by refusing to pay even that, as I understand it.]
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:13am PT
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The mine I work at pays 25% of our revenue in property and "mine-by-proceeds" tax. Plus severence taxes. Plus income tax.
How much should a mine pay to cover historical and current societal costs?
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:17am PT
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A potential mine owner should perform adequate investigation to insure they can cover all reclamation costs before taking ownership of a property. It's like buying a house or a used car. Make sure you know what you're getting into.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:20am PT
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Do you know CERCLA law?
ANYONE who touches an impaired site is liable under CERCLA.
You volunteer to help clean up an abandoned mine that is discharging dirty water, spend money on that site, EPA can now come after you for complete cleanup costs any time in the future.
Knowing what you are getting into is often impossible in terms of liability, which might change when the rules change in the future.
Only huge mining companies can afford to play in this game.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:30am PT
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Gone on now for too long
the impromptu sleep-over in a federal shack. . .Why not just leave them alone?
No coverage - no services - maybe a constant sound track? And lights at night?
Let them have the place and fence 'em in, new prison camp?
I will scroll back and during commercials or service interuptions, read more
But as I'm out of my depth I just was seeing what all has been said in 727 or so posts?
Ohhhh! The nature of these aeessholes, as if they have the understanding of how this looks.
For the suburban, condo dwelling masses ,
not to mention the packed on top of each other, urban dwelling swill of humanity, the concepts are all but lost and so moot
Edit :
Wow you folks have made this thread fun
Taking my focus from football,
This post is blind , so I just wanted to say cat shot Is freaky " fear " said it would be cruel
To send the lonely campers sheep
Cruel for the sheep Ha ha
So many great and deep responses too!
There is gold in much of this thread!
Carry on. . .
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:13am PT
The mine I work at pays 25% of our revenue in property and "mine-by-proceeds" tax. Plus severence taxes. Plus income tax.
How much should a mine pay to cover historical and current societal costs?
Nevada's mineral severance tax collection is between 2% and 5% of net revenue.
Can you reclaim an open strip mine for 2% of net proceeds from a mine?
From the link I gave, Utah is 2.6% of the value of the metals shipped out of state ( less a $50K exemption) . The Brigham Canyon mine has spent nearly all of that ($400 million) just to stay off the superfund shut down list Since the 1990's. There will never be enough money to do anything like reclaiming it.
The mine produced $1.8 billion in metals and other products last year. That's 47 million is severance taxes. To do that, they tore up 3.57 tons of ore per severance dollar. The mine has had more than one major discharge of pollutants a year since 2000. In 2004 alone, there were three discharges of arsenic laced water totaling over 7 million gallons.
The mine claims great benefit from reclaiming sulphuric acid. But what happens in 2019, or if extended, in 2030 when the mine finally closes? Where will the money to clean up the Sulpuric acid that will leach for 1000 years?
And if mines in West Virginia and Durango are indicative, the mine will continue to leak arsenic and sulfuric acid into the environment for centuries.
In 2013 the mine suffered the largest non volcanic caused slide in American history. They keep mining anyway.
Does severance money help? Probably. But no way does it reclaim the 2.5 mile wide pit, and it can be seen as a way for Kenneccot to say they paid for the reclamation and avoid future liability. If they ever stop mining, the place will be a superfund site that will never be reclaimed for any amount of money. It is, btw, currently on the EPA superfund index list.
Go to Butte, Montana and go swim in the pretty green lake at the bottom of their pit let us know how that goes.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:13am PT
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Severance taxes aren't for existing mines - they are collected to pay for abandoned mines.
Mines that are in production have reclamation bonds in place governed by NEPA and administered by the state.
Mines like Bingham will treat water forever and take decades to reclaim - paid for by the parent companies. The bonds are intended to cover the cost if the company goes bankrupt.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:23am PT
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Bigham is run by a subsidiary that will cease to exist when the mine shuts down in 3 or 14 years.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:23am PT
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Or, you know, we can pretend that we don't need beef from ranchers, food from farmers, or any of the minerals that miners provide.
'cause it seems like that is the agenda being pushed by the BLM, USFS, and the EPA.
And some here.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:26am PT
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Or, you know, they can pay the same fees that other ranchers who comply with the law and have to compete with these entitled clowns pay.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:28am PT
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The Hammonds do. They pay what they are required to by law.
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