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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:52am PT
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From the link:
Then came the floods. The winters of the early 1980s saw record-breaking snowfall in the nearby Steens mountain range and smaller peaks bordering the valley. Come spring, the snowmelt pushed the brimming Malheur Lake to a tipping point — which resulted in valleywide flooding. Despite hasty attempts to build a dike, 30 ranches flooded, putting ranchers and their families out of work and, for some, out of a home.
Hank Vogler, a Harney County native, was one of those ranchers.
“Everything I had was destroyed,” said Vogler, who moved his sheep farm to Nevada after the flood, in hopes of starting anew.
Many Harney ranchers, including Vogler, saw this as an intentional move by the government to stealthily force ranchers into selling their land.
I didn't know the government had the power to make it snow at will.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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There is one environmental website that I actually love.
The Environmental Working Group publishes the amounts of crop and cattle subsidies for every farmer in the country who takes a penny from the government.
Here are the figures for Harney County:
These are the disaster payments, for floods, fires, and what not. Yes, the federal government pays them with checks drawn on the U.S. treasury.
http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=41025&progcode=total_dis®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon
Note that Hammond Ranches, Inc. was number 8 in Disaster payments. 280 grand from 1995-2012.
The one subsidy that I really hate is CRP. Conservation Reserve Program. That is where the government pays the farmer or rancher to leave certain lands fallow, to protect the soil:
Here are the CRP payments for Harney County. The Hammonds don't show up, so they didn't participate. In my part of the country, the plains, the CRP is a vast welfare system that the farmers use like it belongs to them.
http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=41025&progcode=totalcons®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon
I keep an eye on this when drilling on a big wheat or corn farmer's land. To convert it to CRP, they plant native grasses and let it lay. It makes fantastic pheasant and quail hunting land, but basically it is a scam that made sense after the dustbowl, but not anymore, what with no-till and other methods to preserve soil.
The CRP would be like the government paying me to shut in an oil well. As far as I know, it is the only government payment that actually pays people not to work. Welfare is gone for the individual. Food stamps are about the only real program for the poor.
Check out how high the CRP payments are in Scott County, Kansas, one of the best farming areas on the planet. I've sat a fair number of wells in Scott County. That area is sitting on the Ogallala Aquifer, and covered with center pivot irrigation growing wheat and corn. Check out how much money was paid to the biggest farms, which are worth many millions of dollars, I might add:
http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=20171&progcode=totalfarm®ionname=ScottCounty,Kansas
Then there are crop subsidies. Since this is basically dry rangeland, you would think that it would be all cows and no crops, but check out the highest recipients for crop subsidies for Harney County:
http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=41025&progcode=totalfarm®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon
Then there is crop insurance. Yes, the government will insure you for cheap if you want it. There isn't much in Harney County. Not many crops, other than cattle feed: alfalfa and hay.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:12am PT
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I didn't know Werner was into farming...
Rank Recipient
(* ownership information available) Location Subtotal, Conservation Programs
1995-2012
1 Sod House Farms ∗ Burns, OR 97720 $312,557
2 Smith Brothers Ranch LLC ∗ Medford, OR 97504 $290,794
3 Gehrke Farms ∗ Burns, OR 97720 $244,391
4 Broken Circle Company ∗ Hines, OR 97738 $242,159
5 Dry Mountain Ranch LLC ∗ Riley, OR 97758 $197,073
6 Ducks Unlimited ∗ Vancouver, WA 98683 $176,850
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:19am PT
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No presidential candidate has had the balls to oppose the ethanol subsidy, which has long been known to be a bad investment. Why? One word: Iowa.
Iowa is number one in crop subsidies:
http://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=41025&progcode=totalfarm&page=states®ionname=HarneyCounty,Oregon
I'm not sure if these figures include the ethanol subsidy, but it has been shown time and again that the ethanol subsidy is stupid. You take corn, by acre the most profitable of all of the main grains, and instead of feeding people, or letting the market sort it out, these REPUBLICANS in the FARMING STATES are all for farm subsidies.
That is why the ethanol subsidy will never go away. We pay for it twice. Once through the government subsidy, and again when we fill up our cars.
It is a thoroughly socialist program, but somehow the corn farmers have it in their heads that they deserve it. In almost any other industry, you sink or swim, but if you are a farmer, and a big one, with thousands of acres, you can game the system big time.
I'll never forget a lunch I had one day. The table was full of hardcore Republicans. Oil MISTER BIGS. One bragged about how he had bought a 5000 acre farm in western Kansas to quail hunt on, and he explained how the CRP payments would make a big chunk of the mortgage payment, so he didn't pay cash, which he could have in a second. Again, CRP is an old soil conservation program that PAYS farmers not to farm on part of their land. I used to go pheasant hunting on a massive grain farm in the Texas Panhandle, and the CRP was the best for hunting.
How these guys act so conservative and at the same time cash CRP payments makes me ill.
Top subsidy recipients in Iowa.
http://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=19000&progcode=totalfarm®ionname=Iowa
You can see that it isn't a few hundred bucks hear and there. It adds up. To a LOT. And the most goes to the biggest farmers, basically because of their geography.
The notion of PAYING somebody NOT to ruin their own soil makes me sick.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:20am PT
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I didn't know the government had the power to make it snow at will.
Libtards.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:24am PT
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How do you feel about the ethanol subsidy, Lorenzo? I saw Trump on one of the Sunday morning talk shows say that he was for it. With that, I saw that he was now a for real politician. Not some populist sage.
A total political move. This isn't a tax break, it is actual checks.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:26am PT
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No presidential candidate has had the balls to oppose the ethanol subsidy, which has long been known to be a bad investment. Why? One word: Iowa.
Sad but true, BASE104. At least letter writer on today's opnion page of the Wall Street Journal suggested that we need gluten-free fuel.
John
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:40am PT
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Well, Lorenzo knows one word:
Libtards.
Apparently he doesn't know what ad hominem means, other than having no brain.
I've shown the numbers. They don't lie. Farmers are the biggest social welfare recipients in the country. And all of the big farmings states are red, red, red.
How they reconcile that baffles me.
I have a friend, a reasonably wealthy oil man, who bought 320 acres in farming country. A local farmer had leased a small part of it to plant soybeans. My friend told me that he receives a small subsidy check every year, and he didn't even apply for it.
The day of the family farm ended long ago. For most crops, you need thousands of acres, and the land eventually ends up in the hands of a few huge farmers, who more or less run their counties.
I always check them on the EWG website. They are always at the top on subsidies.
Have any of you tried to buy a thousand acres? Only the wealthy can afford that much land. These guys have huge operations.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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"The notion of PAYING somebody NOT to ruin their own soil makes me sick."
Thanks for digging all that up, BASE104.
We make jokes about the farms in Belgium being nothing but a government-run living museum / socialist make-work welfare program, but government payments to farmers here doesn't look any better.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 11, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
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Then there is crop insurance. Yes, the government will insure you for cheap if you want it. There isn't much in Harney County. Not many crops, other than cattle feed: alfalfa and hay.
Half of your crop is insured for free. You pay a small premium for the rest.
And there are livestock subsidies. The Hammonds are #11 in the county (# 1 in the 97722 zip code), receiving $76K.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 11, 2016 - 12:10pm PT
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Jan 11, 2016 - 11:24am PT
How do you feel about the ethanol subsidy, Lorenzo? I saw Trump on one of the Sunday morning talk shows say that he was for it. With that, I saw that he was now a for real politician. Not some populist sage.
A total political move. This isn't a tax break, it is actual checks.
Not much in favor of it. Studies show high Ethanol production makes food prices go up. There's only so much corn growing land.
http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2013/01/28/study-ethanol-mandates-causing-spiraling-us-food-prices
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 11, 2016 - 12:13pm PT
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Apparently he doesn't know what ad hominem means, other than having no brain.
No. I meant libtards have the power to make it snow at will.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Jan 11, 2016 - 02:48pm PT
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I haven't read the arson report...is it true they lit a fire below firefighters that put them in danger?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 11, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
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Base said "The spill into the Animas River was caused by a backhoe accidentally opening a drift that nobody knew was there. Acid mine drainage is a huge problem in parts of the west."
That is 100% not true. #1, all the mines in that area are mapped. #2, EPA had a report in hand dated 2014 from the state DRMS (I think) stating the risks of a blowout and recommending drilling from above the drift to determine the water level and pressure. The report was ignored. Is that not willful negligence?
I'm a mining engineer. I would be personally liable and charged with negligence with that kind of prior knowledge.
RE: CERCLA (Superfund) liability. If you touched a superfund site in the past, you are liable. My company used to LEASE a property and built a treatment plant to deal with water issues. When we dropped the lease we gave the plant to the owner. Some time ago it became apparent that the owner would not be financially viable for longer. Guess who is taking over the treatment plant?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 11, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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Send 'em some lice infested blankets so's they can play Valley Forge!
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
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Could be so.
However, with the fence removal, I guess that when these guys do see their day in court, and it will be on the receiving end, that Destruction of Federal Property is going to put them in the same hotel the Hammonds are registered in.
As amended on September 13, 1994, if the damage exceeds $100, the defendant is subject to a fine of up to $250,000, ten years imprisonment, or both
http://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1666-destruction-government-property-18-usc-1361
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 11, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
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Would there be any mandatory sentencing involved? And who would object to it then?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jan 11, 2016 - 04:15pm PT
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RE: CERCLA (Superfund) liability. If you touched a superfund site in the past, you are liable. My company used to LEASE a property and built a treatment plant to deal with water issues. When we dropped the lease we gave the plant to the owner. Some time ago it became apparent that the owner would not be financially viable for longer. Guess who is taking over the treatment plant?
My wife worked for a university before she retired that bought a 35 acre superfund site in Portland harbor. It was a creosote plant.
I'm not sure what the paperwork was, but the university is exempt from future liability after a survey was done and the university accepted an certain dollar ammount of remediation, whereupon the Feds are responsible for either fixing the issues themselves or going after the actual polluters. Most of the future issues will be groundwater related. The area was isolated with metal pilings and a membrane cap with 10 feet of dirt over it. Most of the area is projected to be soccer fields, a rowing center, a baseball stadium, an environmental center, and an environmental resting area for salmon migration.
The rest of portland harbor is years or centuries away from getting settled, PCB's in the river mud being the biggest issues. A whole lots of finger pointing still going on after several hundred million dollars in studies.
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