Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 11:00am PT
|
Yes like sugarloaf, or even like one of the popular peaks where every fuk is trying to make a line on...
I used to be fairly fat, I think I can gain a bit of weight before an expedition LOL
|
|
thirsty
climber
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 11:31am PT
|
After years of instruction and guiding, including a fair amount at altitude and on glaciated peaks out of country, I started to think that we would be better off prohibiting any professional exploitation of any mountains or other climbing areas. Given the impossibility of that happening, there is a difference between responsible and less responsible guiding. The more responsible approach focuses on instruction and giving clients the tools they need to climb on their own in the future, not getting them up peaks. The ability to take responsibility for one's own actions is central to climbing. An instructional trip can often include doing some routes and summiting something exciting, but I for one would always explain that they were not climbing the route, they were being guided up it, regardless of how hard it was for them. I would encourage them to come back and do it on their own with friends/peers some day so they could say they climbed it. It might be a good idea for more climbers and publications to be explicit about the difference between climbing something and being guided up it, the same way we differentiate between top roping and leading something. I suppose that wouldn't be so good for publications that need advertising from guiding companies, but how much does that really contribute I wonder.
|
|
Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 12:01pm PT
|
Eric Shipton wrote a good piece on the mass assault/climbing for the ego mentality at the beginning of his story (if I remember correctly) of their exploration of the Karakorum in the 1930s, called A Blank on the Map.
He addresses very well the broader ethical delemma outside of the guiding issue: what are we doing this for, to appreciated and understand where we are, or just get to the top and then back to the old job, one more tick in our book?
|
|
H
Mountain climber
there and back again
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
|
I am not sure I am qualified to say what is morally defensible. I know for years the whole idea of climbing, has been questioned. I have yet to hear a descent answer the penultimate question "Why do we climb". "Because it's there" is too flippant. And until that question is fully answered; the question of guiding such endeavors has to wait.
If we start to question the morality of guiding Everest; does it stop there? Is it so morally different than other mountains. Or is Jim's question the way its being guided. I know that guiding is questioned as a legitimate occupation as well. Guiding can be like coaching or it can be like hauling. It depends on the client. I am sure there are lots of client/guide variations.
How pure do we want to be. Are we following steps cut into the mountain or is our gear being carried by someone else. Did we do it without oxygen. Did we lead every pitch. Is it a first ascent. Where does it stop.
The difference between the way Göran Kropp and Susan Hill climbed Everest is huge. Actually the way Göran and anyone for that mater. But they both put one foot in front of the other and made it back to share their experience in what ever way they choose to share.
The archaic notion of conquering the mountain is bullsht. It is more like seducing the mountain! Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don't. Yes, there is preventive steps to take in order to minimize the risk. But the risk is a key factor to the glory.
People are driven by their highest goals. Peoples goals differ. Who am I to say whats right for you. I know what is right for me and try not to get too caught up in comparing. When I push my envelope I grow. Setting limits and then surpassing them is different for everyone. If Everest is someones goal they have a right to try and achieve it. If they have to pay to achieve it, then so what.
Minimizing someones accomplishment because it was not done to my standards does not make it any less worthy. Fear and pain feels the same for everyone. But every-ones threshold is different. So for me it is the journey and the intention that really matters.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
|
"Why do we climb"
I still do not understand why people ask this question. It is like asking why do you go running, play basketball, jerk off to porn, eat doughnuts, or w/e. This question does not need an explanation.
|
|
Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
|
It is like asking why do you go running, play basketball, jerk off to porn, eat doughnuts, or w/e.
Somewhat presumptuous to assume we all eat donuts.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
|
rumor (not verified) fattrad jerks off to doughnuts (wearing Da Brim).
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
|
spanky's pennies are well-spent.
You have to count the guided ascent on your "tickage" because as a rich boy you are entitled to a) a double standard, b) the silence and tacit admission by a paid lackey that an ascent has been done, and c) to the adulation and deference of your peers, half of whom never make it up their attempted routes, by any means.
:) , sort of.
I'm well off the mark, but I ain't a pro. I just whored for the equipment makers. Well, we are talking "morals," so why not "whore."
Does "Route-Walker" sound more hip than "guide?"
Seriously, if you paid, you can still say you got laid.
If you were guided, the same logic seems to apply.
I guess. I've never hired. Either milieu, bed or cliff.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
|
Somewhat presumptuous to assume we all eat donuts.
I don't do any of that nasty stuff 0:)
screw this thread, gone climbing!
|
|
michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
|
It is like asking why do you go running, play basketball, jerk off to porn, eat doughnuts, or w/e.
Somewhat presumptuous to assume we all eat donuts.
And I'm terrible at Basketball.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
|
We need Steve to post The Professionals by Tom Patey.
|
|
Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
|
I'm not sure if Donini meant that guiding Everest was immoral or unethical, or both. Some things, like refusing to take part in a rescue or walking past a person in need of assistance because it would jeopardize your summit bid, are clearly immoral to me, but are they unethical? I don't have much clue what the ethical standards are above 8000 meters. We are talking about a hobby that was started by enthusiastic amateurs whose interests happened to conveniently overlap the interests of national pride and empire.
Well said. Recently read "Into The Silence". WWI, Malory and Everest. This is an amazing read and would do well to educate yourselves on this important part of mountaineering history.
Guiding is a serious business and I have the utmost respect for those in the profession. Guiding Everest is a respectable profession and clients are well aware of the risks. Let them climb!
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
|
Not exactly the motives
Determing motives is a tough task to undertake. IMO judging them is even tougher.
|
|
MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
|
|
|
May 17, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
|
People climb for different reasons: achievement, flow, character-building, poise or grace, and finally (maybe) to a greater sense of self that rejects the initial reasons. Simpson & Lowe gave written and spoken testimony of those shifts in their lives; others have, too.
Expecting there to be uniformity in a community about purposes, values, and ethics is unreasonable. One part of the community cannot define the values and objectives of another part of the community.
I think these kinds of controversies keep the community vibrant and adaptable. A little disorder, tension, and even confusion is a good thing.
There will always be some folks who pine for the good old days.
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
May 18, 2012 - 12:04am PT
|
Moral judgement is best self directed...
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
|
|
|
May 18, 2012 - 01:15am PT
|
If you need a guide most anywhere, you may be doing it wrong.
Just go. Or not. That's up to you.
You could die.....so what?
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
May 18, 2012 - 02:05am PT
|
Without a good definition of the guides job it is difficult to judge the morality of guiding.
As a past guide I only had one absolute rule..it's the same rule I have at all times climbing.
No one dies or gets hurt. Beyond fairly minor injuries I have been a successful climber and guide.
A guide however takes this up a notch he is making safety decisions for people not qualified to be there without his decisions.
The only moral thing you can do as a guide on Everest is let the clients know you cant save them and if things go bad you may not be able to save yourself.
The last two paragraphs seem too opposed to be compatible.
|
|
martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
|
|
|
May 18, 2012 - 10:54am PT
|
I have no idea if the guide gig is morally defensible or not. But I do know that these fools that pay 85k for a snow trudge up Everest provide a huge source of economic stimulus to an otherwise very poor part of the world.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
May 18, 2012 - 10:59am PT
|
First Everest 2012 Summits Just Announced - 10 Chilean, 10 Sherpa.
More Sherpa summits is the wave of the future!
http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!