Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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Roger Brown

climber

Oceano, California

Mar 22, 2011 - 05:18pm PT

Adam,
Maybe you should remind folks just what you and your fellow Rad-Techs do at a power plant. I am one of those construction workers that trust you guys with my life during outages. You are the ones that go in first and survey the areas we are going to work in. You map out the hot spots and the cold areas. You tell us the dose rates and are totally into keeping our dose as low as possible. You are one of those people that know the most about radiation and you are simply sharing that knowledge here. Your not a plant manager or a part of plant operations. I look at your work like I look at the safety department. This is still a climbers forum and it is a bummer when we start getting pissed off at each other over simple misunderstandings.

rrrADAM

Trad climber

LBMF

Mar 22, 2011 - 05:34pm PT

Roger,

I'm not a Rad-Tech, I'm NOS/QC. I stated this, a few pages back in a lot of detail, even the plant that I work at, and my history. Including that, at one time, I was the Radiation Safety Officer for an NDE company that did Radiography.

Look here, about half-way down the page:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1436585&tn=1240

And the next page.

Roger Brown

climber

Oceano, California

Mar 22, 2011 - 06:01pm PT

Adam,
I knew you had posted about your job scope, just couldn't remember. I guess what I was getting at was the fact that everyone in the radiation department is pretty knowledgeable and safety conscious. We tend to refer to everyone that works in that part of the plant as rad-techs. No disrespect intended:-)

Gene

climber

Mar 22, 2011 - 07:57pm PT

Here are some numbers about contaminated veggies in Fukushima Prefecture.

If a person eats 100 grams [about 3.5 ounces] of the vegetable with the largest detected amount of radioactive materials for about 10 days, it would be equal to ingesting half the amount of radiation a person typically receives from the natural environment in a year, the ministry said.

If a person keeps eating the vegetable at the same pace, the amount of radiation intake could exceed the amount deemed safe, the ministry said.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80314.html

So it appears that 20 days of veggie consumption equals the amount of natural background radiation, which means that 20 days of eating veggies equals twice the amount of background radiation. Seem pretty small to me, but I have no idea if the body concentrates the radiation. No Fukushima veggies for me.

WBraun

climber

Mar 22, 2011 - 08:05pm PT

Yeah

The lab coats will always say you're within the safe margin,

They have data from their machines.

We aren't machines.

Still we're more defective then ever and becoming ever more so, all while giving the illusion we are advancing.

They give the illusion "Think outside of the box" all while all their data is in a box they've created because their brain and soul is dead.

Their computer is their prized creation in the form of their box.

Everyone is hooked to it.

No one can think anymore without it.

Don't chya love my Andy Rooney rants ......

Dave

Mountain climber

the ANTI-fresno

Mar 22, 2011 - 08:51pm PT

"*They also get into the fact that there are no safe levels of radiation exposure above natural background levels."

Right. So if you live in Denver you should be dead then? We get 2 - 2.5 times the worldwide or US average background exposure. So by your logic we should all have cancer. But Colorado residents have no higher incident rate for cancer than the US average.

Werner / Riley - maybe you should actually read the science before making blanket assumptions of incompetence, institutional thinking, and conspiracies. I pointed to the BEIR reports once before to debunk one of Klimmer's other strikeouts. If you have insomnia, take a read. They are better sources of information than "that one book." Much of the information was from independent studies of uranium miners, who died or got sick before we had knowledge of what was a safe exposure, or how to ventilate for radon.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Mar 22, 2011 - 09:33pm PT

American Red Cross website, with information about the earthquake and tsunami, what they're doing, and how to donate.

http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.1a019a978f421296e81ec89e43181aa0/?vgnextoid=af4f8ddf76cce210VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCRD

Donations: http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.d8aaecf214c576bf971e4cfe43181aa0/?vgnextoid=46f51a53f1c37110VgnVCM1000003481a10aRCRD&vgnextfmt=default

Other organizations that you can donate to or support, which the US Red Cross says should be supported: http://www.redcross.org/en/otherdonationsites/

Canadian Red Cross, and how to donate: http://www.redcross.ca/article.asp?id=38380&tid=001

And I bet that Lolli will tell us what the Swedish Red Cross is doing.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Mar 22, 2011 - 09:36pm PT

Finally heard back from my friend Ryuichi,

His family is all safe and he finally heard from his friend in Sendai that he and his family all made it out.

Gene

climber

Mar 22, 2011 - 09:38pm PT

Good news, TGT.

Gene

climber

Mar 22, 2011 - 10:46pm PT

Major Japanese banks are negotiating a $2.5 BILLION loan package with TEPCO.

In typical understatement:

Tepco, which needs cash for repairs at quake-hit power plants and other expenses, is applying to lenders for loans, the person said.

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110323D23JF685.htm

Gene

climber

Mar 22, 2011 - 10:50pm PT

Thanks Riley,

I posted that three hours ago.
g

Gene

climber

Mar 22, 2011 - 11:01pm PT

Riley,

Love to tip a brew or two with you as well.

Let's let science and fact, where we can find them, lead us in our discussions here. This is a totally balls to the wall, five alarm clusterf*#k with very little info coming from TEPCO at al. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm sure we will be parties to this disaster, one way or another, for a very long time.

Also, no matter who says what, agree or disagree, NukeBot or whatever, as long as they explain themselves and give a valid rationale for their views, DON'T SHOOT THE F*#KING MESSENGER!

Piss out.
g

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 23, 2011 - 12:32am PT

Thanks Radical finally a perspective that sees the forest through the trees.

Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

Mar 23, 2011 - 12:39am PT

Thanks radical.

I've never heard of Douglas Lummis. He must be a visiting professor at the University of the Ryukyus here in Okinawa. What he quotes Takashi as saying about the Tepco officials willing to risk worker's lives to try to save face for themselves, their company and the nuclear industry sounds about right to me.

So does his evaluation of the damage left behind to all the sensitive equipment in the basement due to sea water. In fact, I'll bet the basement is still filled with it and it may even be quite radioactive if the water sprayed onto the exposed rods has leaked downward.

The governor of the most affected prefecture refused to allow the president of Tepco to apologize saying the people of his prefecture were too angry, fearful, and exasperated to accept an apology. In Japan that's almost unheard of and the ultimate refutation.

cleo

Social climber

Berkeley, CA

Mar 23, 2011 - 02:13am PT

what about rescue efforts? are they getting thru? what stories have you folks heard, beyond nuclear?

Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

Mar 23, 2011 - 04:04am PT

cleo-

The U.S. Navy is using helicopters from our aircraft carrier off shore to search for villages which have been cut off by landslides, and land in those places with provisions.

Aya K

Trad climber

New York

Mar 23, 2011 - 09:51am PT

I can't find any info on Hirose Takashi - what credentials does he have?

rrrADAM

Trad climber

LBMF

Mar 23, 2011 - 10:56am PT

OK, Riley... Pay attention here...

The limit for iodine-131 is 55 Bq per kilogram for infant food and 300 Bq per kilogram for other foods regulated by the FDA. For meat and poultry, which are regulated by the Department of Agriculture, the limit is 55 Bq per kilogram.

. . .

In Japan, some milk was reported to contain 1,510 Bq of iodine-131 per kilogram.""

Hmmm , not negligible...?

Yes, still pretty "negligable"...

Even at the lessor of 55 Bq/kilo, the amount reported in the milk is just 27 times the amount. Limits are set VERY conservatively (see regulatory dose limits vs any detectable effect).

And, in just 8 days (remember the halflife of radioiodine) the amount will naturally decay to just 13.5 times the limit, in 8 more days, 6.8 times the amount, and in 8 more, 3.4, in 8 more 1.7, and 8 more we're at .85 times the "conservative limit... Point being, in about a month, it will decay down to less than the "conservative limit".

So, that is pretty negligable. I agree that it is prudent to limit the consumtion of said food stuffs, as I too agree with erring on the side of being "conservative"... My point is, is that it really isn't as bad as most think it to be.

Do the math for yourself for the "300 Bq per kilogram for other foods regulated by the FDA", and you will see that it IS negligable. (I.e., 5 times the "conservative" amount, and decays to less than the limit in about 20 days)

And, just so you know, we in the US tend to still use Curies rather than Becquerels... We need to get with everyone else in the world on this.

And, for the umpteenth time, people (even pregnant women) in New England get a relatively high dose of gamma and alpha from radon even well above 500 mRem/year (above the "conservatove" limit for pregnatnt women), and people in Denver (again, even pregnant women) and those who fly 2-3 times per week get a much higher gamma dose as well... In fact, they ALL get a higher dose (alpha, beta, and gamma) than the average nuke worker, myself included.

Point peing... Is there any detectable increas in the rate of birth defects in New England or Denver? Nope... Because it's all about what and how much. NEGLIGABLE doses have been shown to have no detectable effect.

Edit... My math was off. :/

Jan

Mountain climber

Okinawa, Japan

Mar 23, 2011 - 10:57am PT

End of day here and things are looking worse today. One day forward, one day back.

The tap water in Tokyo has become polluted enough that the government is telling people with children under five to serve them bottled water only. Of course there has been a run on bottled water and now a shortage.

Black smoke rose from the #3 reactor for a few hours, effectively halting work on restoration by mid afternoon. Evidently black smoke rises from that reactor regularly every couple of days and they have no idea why.

Soil samples 5 cm. deep 30 km. north of the reactors have been found with 1,600 times the normal amount of radiation.

Scientists figure the tsunami was so huge because the sea bed on the Asia plate raised up 500 meters (1,500 feet) at one point. Then when the Pacific plate slipped underneath, the Asian plate settled down again along a 200 mile swathe of eastern Japan.

The reason we see standing pools of sea water still, is that many coastal areas in the east are now below sea level and will require dikes to drain. That plus the radioactivity will wipe out farming in the area for a long time to come. The fact that so many of the residents were elderly means that we are seeing the end of a whole way of life for many.