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bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 7, 2008 - 01:53am PT
O.k., I'm gonna start this thread but I have a lot more to expose when I get better organized.

Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?

Amnesty Int'l

World Workers Party (prolly nazi's)

ANSWER (overt Marxists)

ACLU (American civil liberties? When did they support border patrol agents?)

La Raza (for those that don't speaka spanish..that means "the race", as in brown supremacy...who's the racist?)

AZTLAN ( these idiots clearly state they want to re-conquer the SW United States.)

MECHA...just google it

EDIT: CODE PINK should be on the list too.


I'd say I'm sorry for posting political crap...but I ain't. You people need to wake up.

MisterE

Social climber
My Inner Nut
Aug 7, 2008 - 01:55am PT
you are ignoring this user
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Aug 7, 2008 - 01:56am PT
you forgot to put "SuperTopo" on the list
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:02am PT
Eric, you can choose to ignore me if you like.

I'm trying to tell you, we're being invaded by people who sh#t and burn our flag, and want nothing more than us to disappear.

That means you too.

They want the U.S. dead!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:15am PT
It's not protesters that have dragged America into the hole. Hardly anybody has paid any attention to protesters in recent years and they have had little effect.

American policies, military, economic and otherwise have made us look bad in the eyes of the world. The world isn't seeing our protesters, they are seeing our actions.

Peace

karl
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:17am PT
There there, isn't all just awful and terrible? I mean, why can't everyone just agree with us? Nobody loves us, everyone hates us, why don't we eat some worms?

Well, we love America anyway. America right or wrong. (But America can never be wrong.) The flag absolves all sins. Liberte, egalite, fraternite. (Oops, sorry, wrong country.) America, the land of exceptionalism and the (usually unnecessary) superlative adjective.

It's all the fault of those commie terrorists who put the Bill of Rights in the constitution. You know, those white property-owning oligarchs. People like Madison, Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton and their co-conspirators. They couldn't possibly have known what they were talking about.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:18am PT
Karl, I knew it was just a matter of time before you showed up.

It wasn't a troll either, I just knew you'd show up. Always equivocating the sins of our past to current affairs.

What did Santayana say?
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:18am PT
you've started two stupid off topic threads today

quit it
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:26am PT
Anders, don't drag down our leaders into that. They created the best system of gov't ever. They didn't advocate communism. Nice try though.

Funny how you people try to re-write their intentions.

Nice try.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:32am PT
Hey SS, go pleasure yourself and quit trying to tell me what to do.

I had the day off today and have some time on my hands to point out the fact that Commies suck. MMkaay?
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:36am PT
you're not the boss of me
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:37am PT
no one's the boss of me
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:37am PT
OMG!!!! LOL!!!!
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:40am PT
denying it's a troll outrightly is a clear sign of trolling.

solid effort tho!


Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:53am PT
SS - you twit, you've started more stupid threads than just about anyone I can think of off the top of my head,
and your new "angry" persona hardly makes up for that fact.

Plus, your multipal (unanswered) posts minutes apart to the same thread are pretty lame.

Bottom line: Commies suck, and that's the truth.

No amount of America bashing (yawn) can change this simpile fact.
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:55am PT
i'm not angry you are

Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:55am PT
AND you backed down on a bet
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:01am PT
OMG! LOL!
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:02am PT
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:05am PT
obviously you 3 are having some kind of slumber party / circle jerk tonight
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:07am PT
It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!

Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:09am PT
when are you giving me the six pack of green labels you promised? if you want, you can change my username to t*r instead. that cuts out all the logistics
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:12am PT
Only if to promise to miss-spell it again...
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:13am PT
how do u misspell t*r

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:16am PT
You miss-spelled Toulumne in your user name,, remember?
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:17am PT
" You miss-spelled Toulumne, remember? "

hahaha!!! now YOU misspelled tuolumne
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:21am PT
Blame it on Toluene*Brainblow...
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:27am PT
i know who it was. but my lips are sealed! forever.

sooo... trade beer for change username?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:32am PT
You have tthe 6 pack of Green Labels coming, for services rendered.

Just register a new account and be done with it (like everyone else).
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:34am PT
Invaded by protesters. This is just too funny...
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:38am PT
Note to self: Do knott post from the iPhone when drinking a wee bit more than prudent.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:38am PT
"Just register a new account and be done with it (like everyone else)."

no too much of a hassle. i wanna own my own posting history.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:48am PT
Hmmm - you might want to rethink that...
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:58am PT
ummm aren't you guys OT on the OT? Let's just bash some pinko's here, not things that are pink. . .
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 7, 2008 - 04:40am PT
ugh. This thread.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 7, 2008 - 05:24am PT
This thread isn't even worth posting in.

Oops.


Yeah, a few fringe protesters really overwhelms the rape of the US constitution, lying repeatedly to the American people for years, and faking the justification for a war, and getting loads of AMERICAN SOLDIERS maimed and killed in the process, then refusing to take good care of em when they return.

Gosh blue, you sure have a good sense of balance there.

Like Karl the Kommie says, it's not protesters who've made America suck, it's the Bush/Cheney war criminals.

And you voted for em, SUCKER.
MisterE

Social climber
My Inner Nut
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:32am PT
I got a LOLographic image I am trying to load...
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:48am PT
Blue-Here's a little advice from one new dad to another. Focus on your child. Teach him love and compassion and quit spending so much time trying to fix the world 'cuz you can't. There's kooks on both sides of the aisle and always will be, that will never change. The best you can do is take care of yourself and provide a loving and nurturing environment for your family. That you have control over, everything else, you have none. You sound angry, bitter and paranoid...not qualities you want to pass on to your children. Enjoy being a new dad. Peace.
nature

climber
Santa Fe, NM
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:56am PT
I gotta point out that this is one of the finest thread highjacks I've seen in a long long time.

Well done folks! I love it.
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:39am PT
America was for communism before it was against it.
jstan

climber
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:48am PT
Not a hijack really. The archer just had the bow facing in the wrong direction.
nita

climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:52am PT
coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
You forgot to label the US military commies. Being a vet, I can say that the closest thing to true communism in this country is the military. Rolling you socks up to look like every other sock on the base. If it wasn't for the communal aspect of the military, it wouldn't work.


Dog sauce?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
Bluering's list of commie organizations isn't very well supported. Much easier to make the case that the US military are commies. Free Medical care, subisdized goods, uniforms, free this and that paid by taxpayers, suspended freedom of speech, the works!

What countries are still convincingly commie? China says they are commie but I though we decided that that was a failing economic model. How come they have trillions in the bank and we're in deep debt?

Peace

Karl
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Aug 7, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
Ahh, the good ol' days, eh Blue?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Aug 7, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
Commie-bashing is out since the fall of the USSR. Now the new enemy is Terrorists. How could th OP have missed that one; it was Propoganda 101. Asleep at the wheel post-9/11, I think.... "Mr. Bluering, the answer's not on the ceiling....."
Buckwheat

Big Wall climber
No. Cal
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
bluerings list sounds like facist organizations, wanting to shove their ajenda down everybodies throat. you can add academia to the list. Thats college professors for all you in rio linda.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
Bluering, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Moron party?


America, love it or leave it.


If you are a fascist, bigot, neo-con nutjob, hater of democracy and freedom, opposed to the right to choose your political affiliation, burner of books, opponent of the US Constitution, against civil liberties, and a whole lot more unAmerican activities and beliefs, perhaps you should just leave it.




The US that is.





As for me, I am going to look under my bed every night before I go to sleep.


Pesky pinkos.







Paranoia strikes deep.



Ooops, I've been trolled by Uncle Joe's nephew.
coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
Is that why you moved to Ireland, Patrick?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
Coldstonesoup, good retort. How long did it take you to think that one up? (It looks like about four minutes. How disappointing, cant you do better than that?)


As an American living abroad, I believe I have been a good 'ambassador for my country. That is the beauty of being from a great nation like the US, we can live abroad without fear of our government revoking our travel rights or denying us our born citizenship. But then some of you people would probably wish there was a gulag system in America, would you be one of those Coldstonesoup?



bahhhhhhhhh
coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
Patrick, don't we already have a gulag system here? We have more people locked up than any other country in the world. Personally, I think living abroad is wonderful, it gives you a unique perspective of our country that the majority of Americans will never have. And yes, it's wonderful to always have a country to come back to.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
CSS, yes it is wonderful to have the US to return to.

I knew when I posted my first post on this thread that I would have somebody fire back about the fact that I have lived abroad for a number of years. I like living abroad but I love America (family's been there since 1640, second man to sign Deco of Indy was an ancestor).

I have a nephew who is a redneck and during the fiasco over a blowjob for Clinton he blocked me off from his e-mails (I let him keep e-mailing me, stuff like Ted Nugent on guns and right-wing crap, I kept my avenue of communications open to him, I guess I just had a more open mind than he did).


Anyway, I get an e-mail one day from him saying something to the effect that I am only living abroad because I can't make it in America.


ROFLMAO.



EDIT
(BTW, my nephew and I are back on speaking terms, we made peace at my mom's funeral. For all I know, some people on this forum could be my nephew, like Blueing, Jody or even Russ. Nah, I didn't think so). ;-)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
Wasn't your waterboard repossessed? You should have kept up payments Locker.
dogtown

climber
Where I once was,I think?
Aug 7, 2008 - 06:21pm PT
You just listed the core of the Democratic Party. So there you have it. Vote for Obama so they can one true leader.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
You just listed the core of the Democratic Party.

Dogtown, am I correct in assuming that the 'list' you refer to is what I wrote?

If you are a fascist, bigot, neo-con nutjob, hater of democracy and freedom, opposed to the right to choose your political affiliation, burner of books, opponent of the US Constitution, against civil liberties, and a whole lot more unAmerican activities and beliefs, perhaps you should just leave it.

You are such a card. You make me bust my gut laughing (and gawd do I have a gut).

Thanks for the humor, I needed it at this time of night.





You are joking, aren't you? This is a troll, right?









And I thought Fattrad was delusional.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
Commie bashing bastards pontificating on the moralis opperendeye should be jailed and whipped.

Next they will be bashing fishermen and semi truck drivers, or those that buy their goods anywhere besides Walsmart. ...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
Commies, their minions, and their usefull idiots.













coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
Pin the Molotov on the cop car, beautiful!

Watch out though, that post may be perceived as a threat.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:45pm PT
Bluering,

1. Do you stand against everything that the ACLU stands for?

2. Do you think it is unamerican to support the Constitution?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 10:08pm PT
Granite,

1. about 80% of the cases they litigate...yes.

2. No

Here's you ACLU. Sounds really nice like People For The American Way, but their intentions are suspect.

http://www.dianedew.com/aclu.htm

Funny how they couch themselves in patriotic symbolism to mask their agenda.
MisterE

Social climber
My Inner Nut
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:21pm PT

Oooo! A coloring book! Yay! Where's my most-awesome 36-color crayon set with the built-in sharpener?

BTW, the link to this pictue is the following

http://www.zombietime.com/anarchist_bookfair_march_18_2006/IMG_5957.JPG

It's a book fair, now I'm really scared! :-O


"Donny: Are these the Nazis, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.
Nihilist: Ve don't care. Ve still vant ze money, Lebowski, or ve f*#k you up.
Walter Sobchak: F*#k you. F*#k the three of you.
The Dude: Hey, cool it Walter.
Walter Sobchak: No, without a hostage, there is no ransom. That's what ransom is. Those are the f*#king rules.
Nihilist #2: His girlfriend gave up her toe!
Nihilist #3: She though we'd be getting million dollars!
Nihilist #2: Iss not fair!
Walter Sobchak: Fair! WHO'S THE F*#KING NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF F*#KING CRYBABIES? "

klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
There is a difference between communists and anarchists, BTW.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:45pm PT
"There is a difference between communists and anarchists, BTW. "

A pretty huge one. That doesn't really matter to people who use "communist" as an ad hominem attack though. If you aren't a capitalist or an Americanist then it's all the same to them.
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
Fannie's Crack, AZ
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:52pm PT
bluering = troll
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:03am PT
Bluering,

What is your definition of "communist"? Is it anyone you disagree with? Are libertarians communist also?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:28am PT
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:29am PT
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:34am PT
That's right! I'm a marxist!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
From the teaching of the Frankfurt School of the New Left...

To further the advance of their quiet cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools and teachers authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freuds idea of pansexualism - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
declare women to be an oppressed class and men as oppressors
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt Schools long-term operation thus: We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Ughhh, it may be too late....
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
citation dude
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
you might have posted the link...

http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_882.shtml

that is proper ethics in citations of work...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
Wes, I don't like Glen Beck. He's kinda like an unleashed Hannity. And prolly just as (un)smart as him.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
6. The promotion of excessive drinking




hahahahahahahaha
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
The points listed also are eerily similar to those of the Venona Papers and the Communist Manifesto.
Gene

Social climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
I fear no Frankfurter!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgqbCq_sxmo
gumbyclimber

climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
Protesters are nearly always the left boot of imperialism.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
Protesters are nearly always the left boot of imperialism.

Unless a neo-Marxist gains power and the protesters hold tea-bags....


I'll re-post the list;

From the teaching of the Frankfurt School of the New Left...

To further the advance of their quiet cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools and teachers authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freuds idea of pansexualism - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
declare women to be an oppressed class and men as oppressors
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt Schools long-term operation thus: We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Ughhh, it may be too late....


Here's the Marxist thought;

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
jstan

climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
Blue:
You are not helping yourself here.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
Explain, John.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
I'm kinda looking forward to the communist invasion.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
Progressivism is the new Communism:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-22-2010/rage-within-the-machine---progressivism

EDIT: Oops. I see someone beat me to it. (Worth watching twice though!)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
yeah, let's just dismiss it....

...or is that part of the game-plan. Racist? Too religious? Too culturalistic? Too nationalistic?

We should just accept and submit.



EDIT:

re: Glen Beck

Why do you assume I take any creedence in him?

I don't!

The vid is funny, but look at what's happened before you dismiss what I'm talking about. Look at what these fools are taught and then look at what's happend over the last 20-40 years.

Commies. Yeah, an alarmist word like 'Global Warming', but based in many more facts. A gov't of semi-radical to radical neo-Marxists. A silent change.

tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
One thing I've came to realize lately, if I rely on politiceans to provide for my happiness, I'll be sorely disapointed. If I rely upon myself for my happiness, I only have myself to blame if I fail to deliver.

So long as they stay out of my way, and leave me a couple rubels, I really don't give much credence to what the politiceans say and do.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

http://www.ifs.uni-frankfurt.de/english/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/subject/frankfurt-school/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
Ed, what are your personal thoughts on cultural-Marxism and a slow roll into neo-Marxism or maybe into Fascism?

Is it happening as their doctrine prescribes, a natural cultural evolution or "progression'?

Why is Wes a commie?
Duke

Social climber
PSP
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLi_m656tQQ
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
why are you worried about communists?

and especially given that almost nothing secret is possible these days... it seems you have constructed a boogieman which does not really exist.

Also, you have confused communism and fascism, really quiet different things...

communism is an economic philosophy (ideology?): "1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed"

fascism: "1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

you might be worried about totalitarianism: "1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority" which has happened in both communist and fascist governments...

I don't know what Wes is, aside from a poster here on the SuperTopo, who boulders hard... his economic/political philosophy is revealed only in bits and pieces in his posts and these do not constitute a complete exposition of his thoughts.

Also, I think the stuff you've posted on the "Frankfurt School" probably is not attributable to them directly, it seems to be a worry on the web site I linked to above: http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_882.shtml a web site concerned with challenges to religious authority.

The article from which your quote is excerpted has a number of rather fantastic claims against the "Frankfurt School." It is a rather paranoid fantasy that less than 20 people have taken over all of western civilization, and starting in 1923?

I find it not really worth seriously debating...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
I don't know what Wes is, aside from a poster here on the SuperTopo, who boulders hard... his economic/political philosophy is revealed only in bits and pieces in his posts and these do not constitute a complete exposition of his thoughts.

What are you a f*#king scientist???? (I know you are)

You are a judicious and diplomatic man, I'll give you that. And good on ya for that!

Sometimes I wonder how you resist my annoyance, and then I appreciate the Hartouni-effect. Just the facts, maam....
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
Ed- what's the proper word for being ruled by corporations?

I'm way more scared of the rich than I am of some whiny hippies. People stopped listening to those guys some time in the late 80's I believe was the last gasp.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
Economic-totalitarianism?

I'll just be a commie....a hippy commie.
Or some such.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
oligarchy.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZS2GthG1hQ

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
what's the proper word for being ruled by corporations?
Kleptocracy, maybe?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
you sillies...

capitalism: ": an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market"
Gene

Social climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
Didn't SCOTUS recently weigh in on this?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
Look at what these fools are taught and then look at what's happend over the last 20-40 years.

For some reason, the only thing I can look at in this thread are those gals with miniskirts and machine guns.

Is that China?

Ed,

Another perspective on the difference between capitalism and other economic structures is the allocation of risk and rewards. Capitalism encourages individual risk by allowing for individual reward. Socialism tries to mitigate risk by spreading it across the population.

Gary: your comic doesn't mention risk, but how risk is managed is key concept in any economic system. The rich guy gets the money because he takes the risks (of course he has more to risk in the first place...)

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
The capitalists are a parasitic minority class that feeds off the hard work of others. What do they risk? What did Goldman Sachs risk, pray tell?
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
What did Goldman Sachs risk, pray tell?

Sachs didn't risk anything. Why? The government took our tax dollars to save them. That's not the fault of a "free" market, just the opposite.

What about the owner of a small store? Isn't that a capitalist? Every day, millions of people have everything at risk. Do you hate them too?


I am really getting sick of everyone hating on the Marxists. Rent the movie "Duck Soup" and tell me the Marxists aren't great. You bet your life!
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
What did Goldman Sachs risk, pray tell?


I'm just providing some academic background. Not trying to prove you right or wrong.

It turns out that Goldman Sachs didn't really risk much, so this is really not an example of capitalism. And that's why I think that situation is as messed up as you apparently do.

You've probably heard the expression "privatized gains, socialized losses." The GS situation was some weird hybrid of the worst of capitalism and socialism.

The solution is regulation of derivatives and investment banking relationships, as well as eliminating "too big to fail" institutions. Capitalism requires free markets, but it's well known that completely unfettered markets lead to disaster.

Buy some stock, start a business, or loan money to someone else who is. Then you are an old-fashioned capitalist. Take a risk, put your money "to work" and hope for a reward.

The stuff that is going on today doesn't have a name -- it's economics gone amok.




Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
First fatal flaw - I'm gonna get back to you when I'm more organized... When will this happen?

"Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?" - (Where are the organized protests that are against anything American taking place? If they are happenign in your living room, please provide video, you may be able to make some money off that.)

"Amnesty Int'l (side note - (Reputable organization that has brought about much good, and your right were not taken away in the process)

World Workers Party (prolly nazi's) - (you're prolly an idiot if you don't know WTF an organization is before you call them "prolly Nazi's"..)

ANSWER (overt Marxists) (show me how you came to this conclusion)

ACLU (American civil liberties? When did they support border patrol agents?) - (Have any border control agents banded together to join a union, or are they just ok with their government salaries, across the board........ Get a clue.. blue)

La Raza (for those that don't speaka spanish..that means "the race", as in brown supremacy...who's the racist?) - (Bluetring is the racist. You should have just left this one with La Raza, and let the rest of us lok it up ourselves, and come to our own conclusions on their merits... But your a reactionary, so.. I understand the limitations you may feel)

AZTLAN ( these idiots clearly state they want to re-conquer the SW United States.) - (what else do they say? I know you to pick and choose you inflammations, seem to focus mainly on hemorrhoid regions, but.. I digress)

MECHA...just google it (thanks, but no thanks... if you have, I'm pretty sure their policies are not in line with your corporate rule/repuglilkunt way of thinking)

EDIT: CODE PINK should be on the list too." - Not sure what this is all about, couldn't get past a jackass voicing his disapproval of anything that relates to helping people instead of corporations....



Wow.. I just got done reading into the mind of bluerig.. and it still ain't pertty....



wholey-shite... this was a total waste of time...
thanks bluerangue.. I'm going back to my life.. Hope to revisit once your more organized.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
Rent the movie "Duck Soup" and tell me the Marxists aren't great. You bet your life!


LOL!
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
I do not think Bluering might not like those chicks in red skirts but I sure he is into this stuff. Gud Merkin Fun!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9RYBcWljiA

PS. Does your your name have anything to do with a Germ Burn?
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
Here is good definition of what you should be afraid of, the right wing Republican Fascist agenda, so well said by Vice Pres Wallace


" If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead."

And Democrats in Congress don't do the same thing?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
what exactly did Goldman Sachs do?

wasn't it an investment house, who basically took peoples money, lent to and collected interest on it... while charging a fee for the service, both a flat fee and a percentage.... but the original capital was not Goldman Sach's but their customers'


Now having leveraged the investments, that is, taken on the promise of return far in excess of the available funds, once the investment commitments came due they didn't have enough capital to cover.

That means they risked all of their customers' capital, and a lot of their own. Not only does the company Goldman Sachs suffer, but all of their customers too. What should the position of the government be? Let it all collapse?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
I actually think bluering was trolling...
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
The dictionary definition of fascism is as follows:

"A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

Funny my Webster's dictionary says the same thing, minus the "extreme right"

If the government has control of the means of production (through ownership or through regulation) it is Socialism. I will let you argue which wing the bird uses to fly.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
That means they risked all of their customers' capital, and a lot of their own. Not only does the company Goldman Sachs suffer, but all of their customers too. What should the position of the government be? Let it all collapse?

The government let the company I worked for collapse. Over 1600 people out of work. Maybe a small percentage compared to GS but sometimes the small tragedies are just as bad.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
but what should the gov't do? that's a question... not a rhetorical one...
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
Dr F - If the Dems do the same thing as the Repubs, isn't that the same thing no matter what label you decide to put on it. If it quacks like a duck...say the magic word.

Calling me a dope may appease your ego but it doesn't further your cause.

Ed - let them go. Their assets will be bought, some positions absorbed by someone else, people out of work. Investments carry risk. One risk is that you can lose everything.

If the Feds are going to help GS, then they should help everyone. Size shouldn't matter.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
What about the owner of a small store? Isn't that a capitalist?

No.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
What about the owner of a small store? Isn't that a capitalist?

No.

What are they?

What's your definition of a capitalist?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:40pm PT

Ah yes, bluetard, the amerikan patriot (KNOTT), who loves his country
but won't fight for it.

Why don't you just join juan in his cave.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
What should the position of the government be? Let it all collapse?


Yep! Why not? How much did we spend to prevent "the collapse". We (He) caused it. And did we fix anything?

EDIT:

Ah yes, bluetard, the amerikan patriot (KNOTT), who loves his country
but won't fight for it.

So If I enlist in some service my points have more validity or credibility? Are you serious with that?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
Here's your hero dr-f

guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
Enough Bluering!

I'm calling in the man-call it what you like, just answer your friggin doorbell.
Might be a good idea to have a stash of dog biscuits handy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
guido, if that dude's a commie he'll prolly go down fast and hard. If he's conservative he'll prolly just kill ya by squarshing ya'....

guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:04am PT
Better get a quick lesson in Maori Bluering. Our friend, as well as many others, just doesn't understand your lingo.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:06am PT
fair enough, Guido...Have fun wherever you are!

here's this list again...

I'll re-post the list;

From the teaching of the Frankfurt School of the New Left...

To further the advance of their quiet cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools and teachers authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freuds idea of pansexualism - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
declare women to be an oppressed class and men as oppressors
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt Schools long-term operation thus: We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Ughhh, it may be too late....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:10am PT
So bluering, just because some krackpot krauts in their academic dreamworld are coming up with this drivel, that means that anyone's paying attention?

Anyway, I thought my kleptocracy joke was funny, even if none of you did. I thought it might lead to a discussion about all governments being kleptocratic, and the importance of checks and balances.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:12am PT
I have no problem with # 7
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:14am PT
MH, I'm glad you refer to them as crackpots. It's their disciples that are troubling. The ones carrying the philosophy onward.

EDIT:

I have no problem with # 7


Excellent, then you can slowly accept the rest. Welcome aboard!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:21am PT
Crackpots - like their fellow travellers on the right. Fanatic ideologues, largely disconnected with the real world. The right-wingers just have a better PR machine. I guess when you own the press, that follows.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:29am PT
I'd like to see someone (like Karl probably) justify each of the points laid out, in a reasonable fashion. Sure, you can disagree with one or two, but the whole agenda?

It's crazy, man....
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:32am PT
appeals to strawmen arguments (i.e. dead guys that wrote what they wrote) does not mean that either post modern or post structuralist or conservative or neo conservative thought is correct.

In fact, both are rhetorically impotent except to the literary blind who appeal to them to drive their agenda.

Appealling to facts, or studies, or current analyses, well that's a much harder thing to do if it really means so much to one.

Personally this kind or most any kind of broad over generalizing should be done good and drunk, and have nothing to do with real life circumstances where people have to survive in a nation state.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:32am PT
Hmm, looking at bluering's talking points list, there's all too many climbers who could be said to have committed #2, #4, #6, #7 and perhaps #11. No wonder this place is infested with communist-anarcho-liberal-syndicalist-fascist-conservative-corporatist pigs.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:35am PT
Munge, I agree somewhat. And yes, I am under ze influence. But somtimes a commie IS a commie and not some silly red herring....


MH, I just call 'em pinko's.....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:39am PT
from Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Scene 3

[clop clop]
ARTHUR: Old woman!
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Old Man, sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven -- I'm not old!
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you `Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say `Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called `Dennis.'
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say sorry about the `old woman,' but from the behind you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king...
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?

(Courtesy of Ed H, who helpfully posted it a while ago. Of as the Lollards so cheerfully put it during the Peasant's Revolt of 1381, "When Adam delved, and Eve span, who was then, the gentleman?")
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:51am PT
I haven't read even half the posts on this thread, let alone half the most recent ones but I noticed the title and the OP's author so I just had to drop in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

That doesn't actually sound so bad. What's funnier is that's exactly where we're heading right this very second!

The problem with Communism is not the philosophy of it, rather the people who run it. The same goes for Capitalism. The system is good, the people that run it are bad.

Greed, arrogance, greed, envy, greed and power all lead to corruption and perversion of systems designed to create welfare for humanity.

To me that seems like a fundamental truth. Very simple. I don't know how you all feel about that, though.

mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:57am PT
"Excellent, then you can slowly accept the rest. Welcome aboard! "

Thanks for telling me what I can do, rather than what I may do, Bluering, time to put down the bottle and go to bed. Ok big fella'. If you ever grow up and have a family I am sure you will be embarrassed by posts here. Spare your children and stop now.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:08am PT
but what should the gov't do? that's a question... not a rhetorical one...


Ed,

The govt. did need to intervene and prop up the system. It sucks, but it had to be done. I don't know the whole story, but I have some experience with financial markets. I'm sure that if the govt. didn't do what it did, everybody would be hurting bad right now, especially the poor.

What they should have done also, is allowed individuals to fail. Many CEOs and traders should have been financially ruined at the least. And many people should be in jail or on their way there. By now, the news should be reporting an indictment on almost a daily basis. From wall street kingpins to local mortgage brokers, thousands of people should have gone to jail for the excesses of the past years.

But almost none of this happened. They're still getting their paychecks (bigger than ever!) and only a few extreme cases have been prosecuted (e.g. Stanford). The message the govt. is sending now, is this: "go ahead and try to get uber-rich again, you've got nothing to lose..."

And we also need the regulation I mentioned previously.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:12am PT
The problem with Communism is not the philosophy of it, rather the people who run it.

The real problem is that every bunch of murderous thugs to come along think THEY are the right people to run it.


Plato knew his utopia run by philosopher kings was a fantasy.

There have been legion since then without the wisdom to realize that.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:22am PT
this thread is a troll,
or bluering showed
up to another gun
fight armed only
with a wiffle ball bat.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:26am PT
Wisdom & temperance are hard to come by, in humans.
There are ALWAYS predators about.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:32am PT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:37am PT
Fear not Bluering acute paranoia is often treatable- good luck!
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:44am PT
Having spent years learning to annihilate commies I then
turned to just studying them and you know what? Given the
opportunity with very few exceptions they most willingly
come over to the dark side. The allure of more than three
hots and a cot is too much; most people are upwardly mobile
at heart.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:51am PT
Dr. F. - and blue is for all of this!!!


or at least he patrioticly stands behind those "partriots" that have taken these steps....

I realized after I went on my rant that this was blues thinking from '08.. but you know what....?


I don't think any of it has changed.....


it a shame
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 11:30am PT
Blue, you were born in the wrong age.

You would have had more folks agree with you back in the early 1950s.

Plus there would have been more opportunities for FAs.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
Good lord, folks are seriously worried Commies?

Shows how nutty the modern day John Birchers/Tea Party folks really are.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
jstan

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
"The real problem is that every bunch of murderous thugs to come along think THEY are the right people to run it."

I don't know about the murderous part. But this is very apt characterization of our republican party.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Why should everyone in the neighborhood own a lawnmower and a snowblower? Why not 1 in 10? At $1,000 a pop, you could put $9,000 for every 10 people into something nice for the COMMUNIty as a whole. Edcuation, a COMMUNIty garden, whatever.

I don't think it's illegal for a community to do that. The problem comes when the government tells me I have to contribute. Maybe I like shovelling snow, or I like the $5000 snowblower better.

I actually think community gardens in urban areas are a fantastic idea. Kids need to know food doesn't originate in the warehouse of Safeway.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
"Blue, you were born in the wrong age.

You would have had more folks agree with you back in the early 1950s."--dktem




How true this is, not necessarily for Blue, but for the preachers and believers of pre-modern day Conservatism. The non-solvable problem for them is that their very "movement" (oxy-moron) is a Catch-22 in itself--"We need to do what was done in the past in order to go ahead"


Look at one example, Mr. Limbaugh--his education (lack of it), upbringing, politics, et al represent the out-dated consciousness that is holding back progress in this country merely by being of a demographic set that can still bring numbers at the voting booths.




,,,at least that's the way I see it.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
TGT, right. The system is valid, but the people who are elected to implement it get power hungry and become corrupt.

WESCHRIST - You're right! Communism is not evil, it's just propagandized and of course those in power in Communist countries are pretty evil (see: China, Russia, etc)

Actually, America is a Socialist/Capitalist country.

Medicare and SOCIAL Security are socialist ideas. Bank bailouts are definitely socialist ideas. They've capitalized profits and socialized losses. Government intervention in financial markets is a bit of communism when they maintain a floor in the stock market to prevent it from crashing.

And as I draw my post to a close, I'd like to leave you all with this thought from our government:

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
"We need to do what was done in the past in order to go ahead"

Which country has ushered in the most progress in it's relatively short history?

North Korea? China? Cuba? Vietnam? Venezuela?

Communism is great on paper or the college classroom, the problem is it never works and ends up sucking real bad for the people

Unless you're talking about a bunch of hippies growing veggies and having 'free-love', then yeah, that can work sometimes but never on any large scale. If you wanna do that, fine, good luck to ya!
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
bluering, you're neglecting the fact that capitalism doesn't work, either.
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
Winston Churchill
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
Gary, not perfectly, but it seems to be the best thing going.
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy.
Fran Lebowitz
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
I believe totally in a Capitalist System, I only wish that someone would try it.
Frank Lloyd Wright
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
This American system of ours, call it Americanism, call it capitalism, call it what you will, gives each and every one of us a great opportunity if we only seize it with both hands and make the most of it
Al Capone
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Capitalism is Man Exploiting Man; Communism is just the opposite
Eastern European proverb
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Ed, what the government should have done is bail them out. Then it should rewrite the laws to limit the size of the company so that in the future, when a company fails, it wont take the whole country with it.

No such thing is pure capitalism.
No such thing as pure socialism.

Neither system will work as men are in control and they aren't pure.

So we have a blend.

apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
Communism is like Prohibition, it's a good idea but it won't work
Will Rogers
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
bluering, you're neglecting the fact that capitalism doesn't work, either.


You do realize the irony of posting this on the internet, from what I am sure is comfortable accommodations, within an hour or so of when we are all going to enjoy our lunch, from which we have an overwhelming number of choices on what to eat?

All while we contemplate our recreational activities, which we can pursue in our ample free time, even if we have to use our personal vehicles to cover great distances...

It's worked pretty damn well for all of us at the taco.
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
The trouble with Communism is the Communists, just as the trouble with Christianity is the Christians
Henry Louis Mencken
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
The trouble with so called opposition to communism\socialism is that everyone on here supports some form of it. We all have our sacred cows that must be supported by tax money. It's "other people's" socialist priorities and not our own that outrage us. How about just NO TAXES at all? I could have retired by now if that were the case.
gonzo chemist

climber
a crucible
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
"...organized protests against anything American..."


Blue,

you really like hyperbole, dontcha?

And its probably worth noting that the use of the term 'communist' to describe any nation is an incorrect use of the word. I'm not sure that we've seen any nation actually achieve communism. Most countries that ventured down the path to communism ended up as dictatorships. That's sort of an important distinction to make; because as we all know, "absolute power corrupts absolutely."


And just as you all love to get on a soapbox and defend your right to possess guns, I'll always defend peoples' right to peaceably assemble.
jstan

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
In a real sense both systems failed for the same reason. A few people wanted the power to make choices for everyone.

In 1905 the Mensheviks took part in an unsuccessful uprising against the still existing feudal order. Following WWI another group, the Bolsheviks led by Lenin overthrew the Tsar and in addition brutally suppressed the Mensheviks. The so-called Communist revolution came into being when a small group suppressed everyone else. That was the context.

In the US it is becoming increasingly clear we have a party whose only priority is that they must have power. Tolkien's line, "Sauron shares power with NO ONE" once again appears to be operational.

The failures are not based on economic model at all, much as people love to argue the point.

The operational word here

is

despotism.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
And its probably worth noting that the use of the term 'communist' to describe any nation is an incorrect use of the word. I'm not sure that we've seen any nation actually achieve communism. Most countries that ventured down the path to communism ended up as dictatorships. That's sort of an important distinction to make; because as we all know, "absolute power corrupts absolutely."


And just as you all love to get on a soapbox and defend your right to possess guns, I'll always defend peoples' right to peaceably assemble.

I agree. Communism can come in many forms, degrees.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 24, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
Blue - what do you call medicare and social security? What do you call taxing people's income and giving it to banks? What do you call paying interest on federal deficits by using social security and medicare funds?

What do you call camping out in Joshua Tree and sharing food and beer with all your fellow campers?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
What do you call taxing people's income and giving it to banks? What do you call paying interest on federal deficits by using social security and medicare funds?

A broken system that needs fixing.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Feb 24, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
bunch of clap trap

what are the conditions of satisfaction that we can say one system is in fact 'socialism' in the perjoratively defined way, and likewise for 'capitalism' otherwise this is just flapping gums and needs to be stopped on or shunted to the Dr F thread that has so neatly kept things contained in 20000 posts or less.


false dichotomies on either side.

actually economists will tell you that blended economies are the ones that provide for what pro-american approaches think is success for society.

neither strictly command based, nor stricly laissez faire.

i gotta stop reading these threads.

Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 24, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
bump for Marxists


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZOlrZNIod0&feature=related
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
Communists are great...








































































...served with fava beans and a nice chianti.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
It is likely that true communists in the USA are as rare as wolves in Idaho, or grizzly bears in California. A fantasy bogeyman.
Gene

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
Communists are so 20th Century.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
What's wrong with communism?

It's just never existed in it's true form.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
Right you are MH but there are some wolves in ID. but no Grizzlies in Cali.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
Do they taste good deep fried or are they just bad eats?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
It's [capitalism] worked pretty damn well for all of us at the taco.

The majority of the world is capitalist and yet the majority of the world barely manages to not starve. How's that working out?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
Actually Wes, these asshats came up in conversation and got me all riled up.

The Baader-Meinhof gang...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-528611/Clowns-terror-The-Baader-Meinhof-gang-hopelessly-incompetent-befuddled-drugs-casual-sex.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
It is likely that true communists in the USA are as rare as wolves in Idaho, or grizzly bears in California.


Except on college and university campuses.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
Check out the home page of Blue's link--now there's some cutting-edge, honest jounalism (sarc)


Sounds like the article is trying to scare people...






































































...well, just Bluey ;-)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
Mojede, they call them "incompetent" in the link, as they were. The point is that they were indoctrinated with commie propaganda. Kinda like our own SDS terrorists.

And I'm not afraid of commies, I just don't like their philosophies and what they're trying to do.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
Being overly concerned with deviant out-layers on the normal curve of life/people tends to disrupt the norm and leads to chaos/anarchy--you wouldn't want any of the latter, would you now sir?


If no dissent can take place in this country, then it's pretty much over...
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
I thought the current wingnut argument was like this:

Reforming health care is socialism, because some countries that have more socialist practices than us have socialized medicine.

Following on this impeccable line of reasoning, I've noticed that communist countries frequently have a strong military. Is having a strong military a sign of communism? It's funded by tax payer dollars too after all.

No correlation is too specious for the wingnut media pundits that love to sell their swill!
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
Here we just have Anti-socialism.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
There really aren't that many, man.
I've seen 1, in 8 years.

Seen lotsa wingnuts, though. LOTS!
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
I've never personally met an avowed communist (and yes, I attended college).

But you know, there's a terrorist (or communist) behind every Bush.

You must believe it.

Or else you are against the holders of the true moral flame of America.

I'm a Marksman\Lennonist (John) myself.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
this thread is even stupider than the average political thread here at st.

american catholic women's review says that jurgen habermas is a communist.

hahahahahahahahaha!

why don't you just cut-and-paste the protocols of the elders of zion while you're at it.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
For many years, Vancouver had a real live communist on its city council. A man named Harry Rankin. He was a decorated veteran and a lawyer, and his practice focused on representing the underdogs of society - often to the embarrassment of the establishment. He was on council for 20 years, and apart from occasional attacks of potty-mouth, was acknowledged as having been an excellent councilor. Council was and is dominated by business interests, but even they recognized the need for a honest, loyal opposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Rankin
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Blah blah blah. Can anyone tell me what I want to know about them?

Again I ask: Do they taste good deep fried or are they just bad eats?

I hear there are a lot of them out here in Kalifornia-stan especially in The Peoples Republic of Berkeley. What do I do with them? Do I cook them, hang out with them, drink with them, put them to work, put them in jail, send them to Oaksterdamn University? What's a kev to do - I'm so confused.

Minerals got any advice?

kev
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
Communists are nothin'

What's genuinely subversive is a man who has been known keep his own mind *gasp*. Like the guy who goes to your church who voted for Obama and abortion rights.

Nothing worse than someone who won't conform to agreement about our commonly (or should I say corporately) agreed enemies and sense of what Patriotism entails.

Communists -pshaw. Those are straw men. A cheap substitute for the Inquisitorial powers lost.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
The majority of the world is capitalist and yet the majority of the world barely manages to not starve. How's that working out?


The "majority" of the world that you are referring to has no economic system at all.

And now for the obvious retort: How are the communist countries doing these days?

China seems to be doing well lately, is that because they are more or less communist than they have been?

History buried this debate about 20 years ago.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
Again the agenda;

To further the advance of their quiet cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools and teachers authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freuds idea of pansexualism - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
declare women to be an oppressed class and men as oppressors
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt Schools long-term operation thus: We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Many people don't realize they'll in lock-step with Marxists, driving toward the same goal. These 'useful idiots' are used to achieve that goal. They also realize 'communist' or 'Marxist' doesn't fly very well, especially in American politics, so they use other terms. Like 'progressive' or 'green'.

Maybe you're aware Van Jones (former Obama appointee) thought of the green movement as a way to break capitalism and deliver rights back to the people.

They're around, just don't openly call themselves commies anymore.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
The "majority" of the world that you are referring to has no economic system at all.

Not true. Through imperialism, the European and American capitalist have touched every nation in the world. And if you think China is communist, you need to do more reading.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
Where is this Frankfurt school and how do I get my kids into it? *wink*


1. The creation of racism offences. Yes.
2. Continual change to create confusion. -Sounds good if the confusion is directed. Anyway, life was confusing even though my school wasn't Marxist.

3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children. Fine by me. I got my education from the next door neighbor's magazines.

4. The undermining of schools and teachers authority. -I thought this was a right wing mantra.

5. Huge immigration to destroy identity. -You mean like what we did to the Native Americans? Oh wait, you mean WHITE identity. Got it.

6. The promotion of excessive drinking. -So now it's a crime to be Irish?
7. Emptying of churches -Wouldn't bother me.
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime. -Somehow I think this just means we need evidence to convict.

9. Dependency on the state or state benefits -You mean like Health Care?
10. Control and dumbing down of media -Like Faux News?
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family -You mean any family that isn't nuclear, right?


Let me get this straight, you are trying to pin these ideas as identifiers on a specific group of people in this country, you claim are "hiding out" among people who are "progressive" or "green" as a means of equating them with the atrocities perpetuated under some "communist" governments. This is some of the weirdest paranoia I've read in a while. Please continue to post these amazing disclosures of the traitors among us. I hate to break it to you man, but no such cohort exists in any organized fashion. You'd have trouble finding anyone who agreed to all those things and most people would like a few and reject a few. What's a man in search of the GENUINE PUBLIC ENEMY to do?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
bluering inhabits a rather Manichaean world. Everything in black and white, no ambiguities or nuances.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
Here ya go, Binks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_school
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
I don't think China is (purely) communist. The fact that they're not explains why they are doing so well lately.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
All the groups you name, bluering, have one thing in common: they are essentially politically and economically powerless.

Each generation since the time of the Romantic, French and American revolutions have been rebelling against white male pateral figures. Check out D.H. Lawrence, Ibsen, Pound and James Joyce. And, incidentally, each one of those literary figures, except for Ibsen, were extreme right wingers.

The Bolsheviks no longer exist; they went out of business c. 1989-90. You shouldn't confuse domestic enemies of the Right with an organized Marxist-Leninist political party in a foreign state. Hitler killed his domestic racial and political enemies as if that was a means of fighting the Red Army on the Eastern Front.

It does seem as though the Right has been unhappy ever since the Communists called it quits. Now, they don't have any enemies, foreign or domestic, to attack.
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
It's all Fear of a Black Planet stuff. Thank you Public Enemy.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
If, according to bluering, the International Workers of the World are "prolly nazi's [sic]", how in the world are they also communists? The National Socialists and the Bolsheviks despised each other; fought heated street battles in the streets of German cities, which were only a prelude to the big battles on the Eastern Front in WWII.

Doesn't make sense! Sounds like you're confusing US domestic culture wars with real geo-political global right-left conflicts. But of course since the end of the Cold War that global stuff is basically Kaput. No money in it anymore.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
Sorry, Bruce, you are correct. The WWP is Marxist/Leninist, not NAZI-esque.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6603

My mistake.



EDIT:

he is heavily influenced by Glen Beck, the only member of the media to put any real time into the smear campaign against Jones.

Uh, no I'm not. And you're wrong about media coverage of Jones.
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
OK, I gotta confess, I'm aware of the hidden communists bluey writes about. Thanks to the genius of right wing punditry and allied religious dogmatists their secret agenda to infiltrate the progressives and greens has now been blown. Outed. Damn. Thank god we finally know who the bad guys are, even if they don't know who they are themselves. It's been so disorienting since the collapse of the USSR that I had long considered suicide. Without an enemy, I'm nothing.

But the glorious white patriots of the right still don't know about the new secret agenda of these secret communists...to infiltrate the GOP itself! Cloaked in the very language of patriotism of many who are considered holy by the right might there in fact, hide a completely unrelated agenda? The seeds of doubt have been sown... Patriots, denounce the enemies in your midst!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
I've been missing the CCCP logos at the Olympics. The games used to have that cool geo-political edge to them.

I can't determine what this thread is about.

Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
It's not about anything. Some people think it's about something, but when you cut the crap there is nothing there. Communists, Patriots, Capitalists, Nazis, Wolves and Grizzly Bears then the whole thing goes up in smoke.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
Poor lad, but they keep coming up with better treatment.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
Here Wes, from Congressional record and excerpted from "The Naked Communist";



Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963

Current Communist Goals EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Thursday, January 10, 1963 .

Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.

At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen:

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.


http://upssa.com/1963-congress.htm

Look familiar?
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
"Red China". Gotta love that 1963 style. Blue, as your Dr. I'm prescribing Oxycontin and the viewing of Dr. Strangelove on endless loop for the next three days. Please try this and come see me in a week if problems persist.


Just who we all know who the esteemed "Cleon" is:

Willard (W.) Cleon Skousen (January 20, 1913 January 9, 2006) was a Mormon American conservative author and political commentator. A prominent figure in some strains of American conservatism (associated with the John Birch Society), Skousen authored books on politics and Mormonism. In 2008, political commentator and media personality Glenn Beck began recommending Skousen's works, sparking new interest in his ideas and publications.

-Wikipedia

I wonder if he knows what the Urim and Thummim are? Ya think?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
Look familiar?

Ever read The Blue Book?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
I love how you guys blow this off paranoid delusion. Off course, that's part of the agenda, right?

When commies tell you how they're going to destroy your society, culture, and country and it's actively pursued till this day, and you want to ignore it, I can only conclude you've been brainwashed (prolly in college) or are a proud communist.

And that's fine, just don't deny it or try to tell me I'm paranoid.


EDIT:

So Binks, do you deny that is the communist agenda?

The communist manifesto lays it out, dude.
http://www.learn-usa.com/transformation_process/hdn003.htm
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."






Who is doing this to the US? I didn't have time to read it all.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
That's all right, bluering. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to livedid live, from habit that became instinctin the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
I love how you guys blow this off paranoid delusion. Off course, that's part of the agenda, right?

When RIGHT WING FANATICS tell you how they're going to destroy your society, culture, and country and it's actively pursued till this day, and you want to ignore it, I can only conclude you've been brainwashed (prolly in college) or are a proud RIGHT WING FANATIC.

And that's fine, just don't deny it or try to tell me I'm paranoid.


EDIT:
the difference between BLUEY and the people of the USSR was that the people of the USSR KNEW they were being bombed with propaganda, and hence they didnt believe a lot of that sh&&. bluey just doesnt know it yet...
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
I think it's a right wing agenda to pretend there is still a relevant communist agenda that is operative in America. Sadly, this does qualify as paranoid delusion. There is no such grouping. Believing in something that isn't there, or trying to graft it onto other groups as some sort of "secret infiltration" appears to me to be futile and false at best, likely just a mask for a naked grab for power.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
I'm not saying you have to believe me. This is just an area to discuss the issue.

In my defensse, however, look at the stated goals of communists and look at leftist policy and progressives in this country.

I would expect closet commies to call me names, marginalize it, or call it some right-wing conspiracy.

Whatever...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
It's 2010, there are a multitude of very thorny problems confronting us- communism isn't one of them.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
Pickpockets need a distraction, so that you don't notice that your wallet is being lifted.
gonzo chemist

climber
a crucible
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
"look at the stated goals of communists and look at leftist policy and progressives in this country."


Blue,

it's time to turn off the Glenn Beck program. Too much of that garbage will melt your brain.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
too late gonzo, looks like tha damage is done.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
Blue,

it's time to turn off the Glenn Beck program.

This is the last time I will state I refuse to watch that man. He's not an intelligent man even though he thinks he's clever. He's a media tool.

You think the only people concerned with subversive commie goals in this country are Glen Beck and his crew?

It sounds like you guys watch him, not I. I blew that dude off after he started crying about his alcoholism and religion. Give me a break!!!!
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
Chuck Norris would kick all commies and democratics asses with his feet tied up. Go climb!
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
The last great Marxist



"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."
Groucho Marx



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
That was only a year ago. I'm glad you're finally admitting you were a disciple of Beck's for three full years. Unfortunately that's too long to expect any reasonable recovery. Your future surely involves medication.

Are you an idiot? You ASSUME I was watching from the get-go? And why is that such an issue when the commies are telling THEMSELVES what they want?

Why are you stuck on this Beck thing?


EDIT:

It's very questionable if it really was from the 50's-70's.

Yeah, okay...let's just re-write history too. They f*#king admitted it!!!!
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Feb 24, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
I think we're just wondering you sound like his parrot.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
And why is that such an issue when the commies are telling THEMSELVES what they want?

Is that what you think that link was?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 24, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
The commies are coming, the commies are coming... QUACK, QUACK!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
Gary they're still using the same playbook...

that's pretty funny, Locker.
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
Not only are communist phantoms plaguing you so are "progressive", "green", and "leftist". Honestly how many people so you know that belong to a "progressive", "green", or "leftist" organization so much so that they qualify for demonization under these supposed communist agendas you are editorializing about? I don't know any one who identifies themselves this way. Am I "green" because I compost and bought some CFC bulbs? Am I a communist because I don't really give a crap about traditional family structures? I'm a fiscal conservative but I haven't seen many of them in government lately. I know a guy who works for the Sierra club. I guess that's getting close on those lists. The list you posted from the Frankfurt school listed "Excessive drinking". I mean, geez. Excessive drinker. Must be a communist. These categories are so broad that anybody could be accused, and that, my friend is the real point. This sh#t is batshit crazy.

What you are proposing qualifies as conspiracy theory. These pundits are preying for any enemy to materialize. If they gain power, it will be to start a war. Gotta have an enemy. Even if the only thing they can pin is "excessive drinking". I'm exaggerating -but only a little. The same reason why this stuff if facetious is the same reason the Tea Bag movement can't go anywhere. It has no real target.

Honestly, Blue, WTF do you really care about? Heaven forbid it should be something one someone's communist watch list. Nothing like being branded as being part of some vast conspiracy just for having a differing opinion on some hot button issue.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
"Excessive drinking"?

Oh, oh. McCarthy was a drunk! We're doomed! Doomed!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 24, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
It is likely that true communists in the USA are as rare as wolves in Idaho, or grizzly bears in California. A fantasy bogeyman.



Hi Anders Often, I can hear wolves howling from my cabin. But Im more worried about a Ted Kaczynski coming through the door.

Wolf populations? Idaho, about 850.Wyoming, under300.Montana, 550.
Do communists hanging out in Sproul Plaza howl ?


Sorry for the diversion. with Rox on leave, I feel compelled to guard the flocks......hmmm, about twenty-four in this wolf
pack.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
I'm a commie wolf lover....So what?

Bring it.
samg

Trad climber
SLC
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:11am PT
Cleon Skousen's muckraking is one of the main reasons why many Mormons branched away from the church in the 80's and 90's and formed polygamist cults. Kind of a long story and a real shame. Not sure how Glen Beck has managed to overlook that when he quotes Skousen.

Also here is a fun quote about fascism and socialism:

"Fascism is the complete opposite of socialism"
Benito Mussolini, from 'What is Fascism.'

Simple as that.

One thing you have to remember about real Communists is that their intent is the dissolution of the State completely, rather than erecting a totalitarian super-State. Socialism is just a tool for them, to wrest power from the ruling classes, after which the State would be dispensed with.

If you read the FBI files on Albert Einstein, you'll see that Einstein himself was accused of plotting to overthrow the State or specifically, the US Government, because of of his ties to leftist political groups. Since the Cold War and since the totalitarian abuses of supposed Communist governments have been thoroughly aired out, this is a theme you don't hear in anti-Communist propaganda any more.

So it would be wrong to equate Communists with Socialists, and even more wrong to equate them with Fascists.

(Fascism is a political "third way" btw, and contains elements of both the political left and the right)
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:29am PT
It is not wrong to equate Communism and Socialism if Communists are using Socialism as a step in their goal. They are using the State to achieve their goal even if the goal is no State.

There also would still be a State under Communism, otherwise you are discussing anarchy. The people would constitute the State. Who would decide on rules? Utopian Communism is basically democracy without a profit motive. But what happens if I vote against the majority and refuse to comply? There would have to be a mechanism of enforcement - the State.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:32am PT
Naw, we'd just pelt you with rocks......And then build cairns with them.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:39am PT
In my defensse, however, look at the stated goals of communists and look at leftist policy and progressives in this country.

Yep, Clinton was a commie. He worked towards balancing the budget. To be a good capitalist you must belong to the republican party and spend spend spend.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:49am PT
The LDS church publically distanced itself from Skousen and his writings.

Respected BYU history professor Louis C. Midgley accused Skousen of "inventing fantastic ideas and making inferences that go far beyond the bounds of honest commentary."

SLC mayor H Bracken Lee said after firing Skousen as chief of police;

"The man is a master of half-truths. In at least three instances I have proven him to be a liar. He is a very dangerous man [and] one of the greatest spenders of public funds of anyone who ever served in any capacity in Salt Lake City government."

Early LDS leaders such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young preached the United Order, a form of socialism. Many Mormons embraced capitalist concepts but the United Order is believed, by adherents to fundamental LDS doctrine to be the final condition in economic evolution. Communism and European socialism are seen as counterfeit systems.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:54am PT
Naw, we'd just pelt you with rocks......And then build cairns with them.

Try it and I'll put you down with my Big Wall, Smith & Wesson 45 cal "Astroman Special"
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:55am PT
Do you love wolves that are commies or are you a commie who loves wolves?
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:05am PT
"Naw, we'd just pelt you with rocks......And then build cairns with them."

A stoning, a stoning. I'm all for a good old fashioned stoning!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:08am PT
I'm already stoned.
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:11am PT
Wayno, whatever happened to the funny tinfoil hat party or something like that?

We'er overdue for a gathering.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:14am PT
with Rox on leave, I feel compelled to guard the flocks

In case you missed it, he's back. A few tentative posts on Tuesday, almost a dozen today, and who knows what tomorrow's total might be.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:19am PT
We'er overdue for a gathering.

Hi Mimi. The gathering is coming. Wayne and I have been talking about it. Food. Communists. Beer. Wolves. Gonna be great.

Maybe late March or early April?

Is Steve back? Haven't seen him here on ST lately.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:19am PT
The LDS church publically distanced itself from Skousen and his writings.

Just as they have from polygamy - but in reality there's never enough distance between LDS and the inevitable cults and spinoffs it spawns from it's authentic heritage and legacy. I know and have spent time with Joel Skousen (bought the Wind Chapel in Hood River from him). There is much to like about the Skousens as a family apart from their politics and the businesses they copromote with them. And they have a following for a reason and the LDS had and has a significant role in that regardless of their press releases and several decades of working hard at mainstreaming.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:22am PT
Tacos of the world, unite!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:22am PT
You would rather the LDS leaders advised members to embrace Skousen's ideas and practice polygamy again ?

LDS will never be "mainstreaming" in the USA (as it is). But it's necessary to advise members so they are not misled by the likes of Skousen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:26am PT
They don't have too. The authentic LDS history, heritage, legacy, core beliefs, and root practices essentially give them a life of their own at this point. A certain percentage of the Mormon faithful will always buy into polygamy and an even larger percentage will always buy the Skousen's perspective on living in the world.
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:26am PT
Back on topic, can the ideal ever get beyond the dictator of the prolitariat, given the nasty nature of a select group of folks in almost every situation.....?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:33am PT
"A certain percentage of the Mormon faithful will always buy into polygamy"


Some will, but they can't be defined as "faithful" in violating church law. That's why they're excommunicated.
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:37am PT
Sorry, this is the commie thread. Can't we just have a little honest godless communism?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:38am PT
What would you guys like to know? I'm holding a copy of the bible in my hands as we speak...


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:41am PT
Some will, but they can't be defined as "faithful"...

They can in every respect be considered faithful to the true heritage and legacy of the church. They can even maintain it's the LDS which is being unfaithful and make a solid case for it. Joseph Smith's wives:

Emma Hale
Fanny Alger
Lucinda Morgan Harris
Louisa Beaman
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Agnes Coolbrith
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Delcena Johnson
Eliza R. Snow
Sarah Ann Whitney
Martha McBride Knight
Ruth Vose Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth
Emily Dow Partridge
Eliza Maria Partridge
Almera Johnson
Lucy Walker
Sarah Lawrence
Maria Lawrence
Helen Mar Kimball
Hanna Ells
Elvira Cowles Holmes
Rhoda Richards
Desdemona Fullmer
Olive Frost
Melissa Lott
Nancy Winchester
Fanny Young
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:41am PT
Mimi, I think your getting to the heart of the matter. How do you remove the nasty parts of human nature from the "guys at the top"? How pure and altruistic can we expect our leaders to be? Should there be stronger penalties for misuse of the public trust? Death perhaps?
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:48am PT
Yay, not only a stoning, but a stoning and perhaps some flaying too. Gotta have a proper flogging first, of course. And a fine brine rinse afterwards.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:50am PT
"They can in every respect be considered faithful to the true heritage and legacy of the church."



Being true to "heritage and legacy" is not equivalent to being true to the faith....if the dictates of faith change. The LDS church began as monogamous, becoming polygamous as social conditions compelled. Return to monogamy was obvious evolution as ratio of men to women equalized, (thank heavens).

Many American historians claim the LDS church repudiated polygamy to gain statehood. Not really accurate....Mormons wanted a nation apart from the United States. But the U.S. "owned" the territory...so the Nation of Deseret never came to be.

Interesting list, HealyJE, but somewhat irrelevant to the issue...again, polygamy was not eternal doctrine. Female converts out numbered male in early days of the church. But it should be mentioned that two thirds of Mormon men in 19th century Utah had but one wife.

Getting back to Cleon Skousen...yes, there will be Mormons who subscribe to his ideas. But his rationalizations are his own. Considering he was a professor at BYU and held considerable influence in and outside of Utah, it's valid and reasonable for church officials to communicate that Skousens writings should not be taken as church doctrineespecially considering the church's doctrinal belief that millennial society will incline toward socialism.

If you wish to begin another thread Id be happy to discuss it with you tomorrow.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:50am PT
Can't we burn at least one person at the stake? Pretty please?

And what about dunkings? They're always a ton of fun.

I just love these religious threads.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:54am PT

Bluering must be trolling us
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:20am PT
Kids today remember Vietnam and the Cold War the way a 50 or 60 year old remembers World War II and the Depression - as dim memories. It's a very good sign, I think, that all that anti-Communist freedom fighting nonsense is finally fading into the past. With all manufacturing migrating overseas, there just isn't a proletariat in the US anymore to rebel against the capitalists. The economic system that Karl Marx wrote about just doesn't exist anymore.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:42am PT
Hey Mimi

I have a hot tip on a great source for a fine, brine rinse.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:08am PT
Pelt them with rocks!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:18am PT
Healje, I love Jo's last wife's name, Fanny Young.
I can see the old coot overhearing elementary school roll call, Young, Fanny?...
Here!

MH, as for dunkings, the current politically correct term is "water boarding".


Mimi, when you started to call for stoning I wanted to joint in. But then I realized it wouldn't involve a lighter so never mind.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:29am PT
Marxism is basically Karl's theory on history, especially the economic aspects, and his predictions on what the future holds. Economics is what drives history, according to the Karl.

Economic systems evolve over time, like all pieces of culture. Hunting and gathering gave way to feudalism, then mercantilism, then capitalism. Nobody planned it, there were no conspiracies, it was simply evolution of economic systems. Marx's theory is that the next step in this evolution is socialism. As the capitalists accumulate capital and create monopolies, the next step is for these monopolies to be nationalized. The evolutionary step after socialism is communism.

There's no conspiracy, it will happen naturally. So bluering, better face facts, man. the commies are going to win. Even if you don't drink the water.

On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:39am PT
On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.




Hmmm, Blue seems to only ever have a beer in hand...
Maybe Blue is the common-ist.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
Let's not forget the original commie....Jesus Christ, who made all his disciples sell all their stuff and hold money communally for the good of their community according to need.

That's going to really bum out the conservative right when Jesus comes back and wants to raise taxes to 100% (with rebates for need) He'll see Gitmo for sure.

That list Bluering posted doesn't make sense to me. Sounds more like somebody distorting the standpoints of an opposing side by casting them in a negative light

Peace

Karl
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
Karl, I think the Buddhist monks were commie before Jesus. I could be wrong.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
Once you go Red you'll rise from the dead.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
Debunk it? I won't even try to read it. Could you be a little more concise?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
Karl, you're probably right about Jesus. The difference is that he was truly benevolent, not seeking power, not greedy. He wasn't bound by the flaws of mankind.

Men (or women) CANNOT make communism work on any significant scale.


Dr.F, do you really expect people to read all that???
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
Dr. F, I want to say that I'm glad that you have the intellect and take the time to to give us such valuable posts. Of course, I'm on your side of the isle, not everyone on ST will be as appreciative. People having a problem with long posts are the ones most likely to buy into over simplified sloganeering. We live in a "sound bite" time where people can't be bothered to explore a subject in depth.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
Tongue somewhat in cheek, but I do like somewhat extreme manifestos to get the synapses firing.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
Do you want to reach peoples minds? Or just people that you imagine are as smart and determined as you? Or are you just trying to impress us? Sure, I read it, I read stuff like this, and worse or better, all the time. I don't quote huge slabs of it during discussions.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
Okay, Dr. F, let's look at this one;


3. Develop a thug caste

When leaders who seek what I call a "fascist shift" want to close down an open society, they send paramilitary groups of scary young men out to terrorise citizens. The Blackshirts roamed the Italian countryside beating up communists; the Brownshirts staged violent rallies throughout Germany. This paramilitary force is especially important in a democracy: you need citizens to fear thug violence and so you need thugs who are free from prosecution.

The years following 9/11 have proved a bonanza for America's security contractors, with the Bush administration outsourcing areas of work that traditionally fell to the US military. In the process, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars have been issued for security work by mercenaries at home and abroad. In Iraq, some of these contract operatives have been accused of involvement in torturing prisoners, harassing journalists and firing on Iraqi civilians. Under Order 17, issued to regulate contractors in Iraq by the one-time US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, these contractors are immune from prosecution

Yes, but that is in Iraq, you could argue; however, after Hurricane Katrina, the Department of Homeland Security hired and deployed hundreds of armed private security guards in New Orleans. The investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill interviewed one unnamed guard who reported having fired on unarmed civilians in the city. It was a natural disaster that underlay that episode - but the administration's endless war on terror means ongoing scope for what are in effect privately contracted armies to take on crisis and emergency management at home in US cities.

Thugs in America? Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000. If you are reading history, you can imagine that there can be a need for "public order" on the next election day. Say there are protests, or a threat, on the day of an election; history would not rule out the presence of a private security firm at a polling station "to restore public order".


First her whole premise is that Bush was becoming a fascist. Well, he's gone. Get over it.

Next she admits her whole Blackwater premise is a red-herring because that's Iraq, not here. Then she balks at the use of 'private security' being used after Katrina and that in one incident these contractors fired on 'civilians'. Were they innocent? Looters? Doesn't really rise to thuggery without more details...which are lacking.

Lastly she points to 'angry Republican males all dressed the same' who intimidated voter counts. Does she have any pictures of this goon squad? And what the hell is intimidation, can she explain???

Now let's discuss Obama and his desire to create a Civilian Police Force, that's just as well armed as the military. WTF? That doesn't seem worrisome to you?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
The Bush may be gone but the roots remain. The Bush appointees to the Supreme Court will be screwing us over for years to come. Witness the Corporate give away in their recent BS ruling.



Have Blue, quick comrade look behind you, it's the RED MENACE!!!!!
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
Lastly she points to 'angry Republican males all dressed the same' who intimidated voter counts. Does she have any pictures of this goon squad?

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-09/local/me-28_1_polling-place

Uniformed security guards hired by the Republican Party of Orange County were removed from Santa Ana polling places Tuesday morning after the chief deputy secretary of state termed their presence "unlawful intimidation of voters."

Outraged Democratic Party leaders had charged that the guards were harassing Latino voters in the bitterly contested 72nd Assembly District, writing down automobile license plate numbers and challenging voters to prove that they are U.S. citizens.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
There ya go Blue. Read it and weep over another beer.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
Gary, that isn't what she said. She changed it to 'angry Repub males'.

Those were security guards hired by Repubs concerned with illegal alien voting. She painted a different picture.

That link is from the 1988 elections too...

And I'm all in favor of having to show an I.D. to vote.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
we all should realize that no amount of varifiable "proof" (that is proof to you and me, that anyone would say is "proof") is never going to be enough for the blueguy....


he's firmly red-state guy living among blue-staters....


BTW - That story was posted to the web in 1988.. not sure of its relevence to current events.


Blue - the nation has a civilian police force.. and they get a healthy percentage of state funds... not sure what you mean by "Obama's creating a civilian police force" you mention above...


no response is needed really.. I know this all to be pointless bickering about what you don't want to admit.. (how has your life been made by the actions of the last administration, or has your person life turned horably bad since a democrat got into office?)



good day sir
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
Here, Jingy;

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/07/obamas_civilian_national_secur.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
I googled the police force...
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
Those were security guards hired by Repubs concerned with illegal alien voting. She painted a different picture.

No, those were Republicans concerned with Democrats voting.

That link is from the 1988 elections too...

And how does that make it invalid? You said there had never been Republican goon squads, I gave an example. Even if the local Republican Central Committee sent a squad of uniformed thugs into your house and dragged away your family, you still wouldn't acknowledge it. Why?

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
how's yer chains, Bluey?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
Gary, that's from 1988 mid-terms. Who was prez then?

The whole premise of F's article was that Bush was going fascist. That happend under Clinton. And in your link, even the other local Repubs called it too much.

Actually, it was Reagen who was prez...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
whatever, F.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
Bluey, Can't face the Truth of being part of a Fascist organization claiming that Obama is trying a Communist Takeover, that is totally debunked

I simply stated what Obama himself stated during the campaign that he wanted a civilian police force that is as well funded and well armed as the military.

He said it! Not me. And you didn't debunk squat. You just said you didn't believe it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
That hurts, Dingus.....
Forest

Trad climber
Denver, CO
Feb 25, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
I'm happy to say that I gave a sizeable amount of dough (for me, at least) to both the ACLU and Amnesty International a few years back. Other recipients of my money, and who should probably be on your list of "communism" (really, communism? What is this, the 50s?)

Planned Parenthood
Democracy Now
Water for People
Natural Resources Defense Council

(p.s. a national civilian service corps is not a civilian police force, no matter how many times Limbaugh and Beck claim otherwise.)

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
Forest he said "civilian security force". Watch the video.

"That's just as powerful" as the military.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
Is this propaganda? Obama encouraging people to 'persuade' people through talk radio.

CALLING TIPS

* Be polite, respectful, and clear. Remember, you represent Organizing for America.
* How radio stations will connect you will depend on the show. Some radio shows may connect you right away, but most will take your name and basic info and put you on hold. You may or may not be able to hear the broadcast on the show while you're waiting. You may hear the radio host say something like, "Hello, we have your name on the line with us."
* Some hosts may challenge your views. Stay calm and firm. Sharing a personal story about how health reform affects you and your family is a great way to show the importance and urgency of health reform.
* If you can't get through, don't worry! If the show you call is busy or not accepting calls at the moment you call in, simply click "Give me another show" to find another.

DISCUSSION POINTS

These points are only to provide extra information and suggestions. Your personal story will make the most compelling message.

* For most Americans, their health care plan covers too little and costs too much. Far too many people delay or even skip the care they need because they simply cant afford it.
* The plan the President laid out includes the largest health care tax cut for middle class families in history and makes coverage more affordable for tens of millions of families and small business owners and expands coverage to over 31 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
* This plan will give millions of Americans new choices in health insurance by making coverage more affordable, ending the denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, putting power in the hands of consumers instead of insurance companies and providing one of the largest tax cuts in history while also reducing our national deficit.
* Reform couldnt be more urgent just this month consumers in California were told their premiums could go up as much as 39 percent.
* Too many in Washington are now saying that we should delay or give up on reform entirely, but Americans understand the stakes for our economy and our lives, and we want action.

http://radio.barackobama.com/

All the stuff isn't totally factual and the prez is telling people to propagate this stuff with the intent of mis-informing/indoctrinating people.

No?


And at the top of the page is this;

The fate of health reform has been a focus of debate in living rooms and offices, on TV and online -- and on talk radio. And since millions of folks turn to talk radio as a trusted source of news and opinions, we need to make sure OFA supporters are calling in with a pro-reform message.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Hey Bluey, you were born too late, you should have been on HUAC. Uncle Joe could have been your relative.

DICKHEAD.


That's the best I can say, because you have proven yourself to be an as#@&%e with this thread. And to think that I use to think that you were alright. But then you are a TROLL. Sob, "and I thought that Bluey was human, who would have thought?" ;-)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
I'm curious what changed my status in your mind? Any particular comment?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
Hey Bluey, the best thing that you can do is to let your brain engage before your mouth. Did that ever occur to you? But then, a brain full of McDonalds and Captain Crunch can be dangerous. Let us real Americans take care of the country and planet, not you tea-bagging confused morons who want to suck up to the likes of Glenn Beck and such. Gee, is that a poster of Ann Coulter on your bedroom wall? ;-)

I'll be behind the bicycle shed after school. Meet you there.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
Nobody suggested that yet, Locker.

Socialist, yeah, but not a commie yet....But commies like Lenin and Marx historically started slow and took steps towards anti-capitalism. That the philosophy of so many, just look at the philosophy of the Frankfurt School.

And I'll be damned if I just sit here and watch a Marxist revolution take place. At what point does it become a Marxist cultural revolution? That's the trick they deploy.


EDIT:

But then, a brain full of McDonalds and Captain Crunch can be dangerous. Let us real Americans take care of the country and planet, not you tea-bagging confused morons who want to suck up to the likes of Glenn Beck and such. Gee, is that a poster of Ann Coulter on your bedroom wall? ;-)

You know me real well don't you, in your mind? Who's being stereotypical and bigoted? I gotta eat McWhatever to be an anti-communist? Or if I am am an anti-communist I must be a f*#k-tard moron?


Wes, why can't he be all four?
Gene

Social climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvonsjqE2a4
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
Wes, how do you know what I read? You can only know what I post. Why are you people so assuming?

I read some left-wing stuff. Some 'independent' stuff (AP, UPI, Reuters). The problem is that they are silent on some issues. Factual issues.

Surely you are capable of understanding this. How many times have you heard mention of Obama's radio program or his civilian security force?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
I must be a f*#k-tard moron

You said it Bluey. What did you have a good look in the mirror? Must be the case.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
The real question is, why do you cling so desperately to the Catholic Church after it rejected you? Are you not capable of forming a personal relationship with Christ?

Again the assumptions. I was googling the story and that link was the most comprehensive. I provided you with different links, but you won't mention that because it disproves your theory that it is strictly a moronic Catholic-based conspiracy.

As a scientist this paints you as a biased person. I understand we're loose here, but stop being disengenuous. You want your 'scientific', 'intellectual', standards to be respected but deny when I offer corresponding data from Congressional record.

There are many sources that documented the trevails of communist ideology. I think you know this too.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
Gene put up a great video. Republicans just won't get it.

I am certain that my fellow Americans expect that on my induction into the Presidency I will address them with a candor and a decision which the present situation of our people impel. This is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Nor need we shrink from honestly facing conditions in our country today. This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper. So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itselfnameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days.

In such a spirit on my part and on yours we face our common difficulties. They concern, thank God, only material things. Values have shrunken to fantastic levels; taxes have risen; our ability to pay has fallen; government of all kinds is faced by serious curtailment of income; the means of exchange are frozen in the currents of trade; the withered leaves of industrial enterprise lie on every side; farmers find no markets for their produce; the savings of many years in thousands of families are gone.

More important, a host of unemployed citizens face the grim problem of existence, and an equally great number toil with little return. Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment.

Yet our distress comes from no failure of substance. We are stricken by no plague of locusts. Compared with the perils which our forefathers conquered because they believed and were not afraid, we have still much to be thankful for. Nature still offers her bounty and human efforts have multiplied it. Plenty is at our doorstep, but a generous use of it languishes in the very sight of the supply. Primarily this is because the rulers of the exchange of mankinds goods have failed, through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.

True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers. They have no vision, and when there is no vision the people perish.

The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.

Happiness lies not in the mere possession of money; it lies in the joy of achievement, in the thrill of creative effort. The joy and moral stimulation of work no longer must be forgotten in the mad chase of evanescent profits. These dark days will be worth all they cost us if they teach us that our true destiny is not to be ministered unto but to minister to ourselves and to our fellow men.

Oops! I forgot, FDR was a SOCIALIST!!
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
And I'll be damned if I just sit here and watch a Marxist revolution take place. At what point does it become a Marxist cultural revolution? That's the trick they deploy.

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
Come on folks, let's not get too down on Bluey. It is apparent that he really thinks that America is under threat from the lefties. He deserves our sympathy and we should start a fundraising drive to get the guy some psychchriatic, eh, some psyching, eh, physickie, eh... some sort of help. Help.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
Sometimes I like you people, and other times I'm puzzled. So Marxism is not so bad? You guys dig it!

That's the big difference I suppose. Conservatives are quite open with their objectives, lefties seem to be all over the place. Twisting and spiralling the truth and intent....
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
Conservatives are quite open with their objectives

Certainly Reagan and the Bushes were out in the open about their objectives. They promised to f*#k up the American worker and they did. The middle class is next. And bluering is correct, they are out in the open about it. And people still vote for them, because who else will protect us from godless communism! And those darkies...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
wow bluey....

i lived in west berlin, you remember, the whole wall and sh%%, checkpoint charlie all of that. i travelled to communist East Germany and other east-bloc countries.

you are far more worried than even the residents of those countries were about big brother and the red threat.

help is available
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
Certainly Reagan and the Bushes were out in the open about their objectives. They promised to f*#k up the American worker and they did. The middle class is next.

I thought the workers were the middle class.

And bluering is correct, they are out in the open about it. And people still vote for them, because who else will protect us from godless communism! And those darkies...

WTF are you talking about?


Hawkeye said;
you are far more worried than even the residents of those countries were about big brother and the red threat.

and yet who succumbed to oppression and totalitarianism??? Us or the East Germans? Of course they went along, they had to!!!


EDIT:

Ricky said;

Bluering, if you look at the entirety of this thread in a different context, say people, not friends per se, but people with some level of interest in you, are overwhelmingly suggesting you have some sort of cognitive deficiency. Let's forget about politics and economics for a brief moment and may I suggest to you you have a genuine problem. Paranoia barely scratches the surface I fear. Perhaps there is someone here on Super Topo who is a mental health professional and can offer you some advice. Perhaps a referral to someone who is local for you. I humbly suggest that you may be a happier, healthier human being and will enjoy your remaining days much more if you get some help in the near future.

I am not kidding here (I almost put that in all caps, but that's not my style). Politics have no bearing here. You have an issue you need to address. I wish you the best of luck.

Let me guess, you think Dr. F is rational and I'm deluded/paranoid/insane, right?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
i travelled to communist East Germany and other east-bloc countries.

Hawkeye, I work with Hungarians and Western Russians too, what do your buddies tell you about the differences between communistic rule and democratic/parliamentary rule?

Be honest.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
They are coming to take me away haha, coming to take me away haha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Commies_Are_Coming,_the_Commies_Are_Coming

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
Wes, get over it already. I've taken college science courses. on the engineering side and advanced mathematics (for electronics). You just want to portray me as a toothless fool.

Dingus, what?

EDIT;

If you think you and Dr. F are equals on opposite sides of the spectrum you're even more fuked up than I realized.

Hey, dipsh#t, I didn't do that, Dingus did. Pay attention. He made the comparison.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
That's like asking a welfare recipient if they'll vote for welfare limitations and more jobs programs. Of course they won't, why work when the gov't gives you everything????
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
Welcome to the land of fossilized grey matter.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
Certainly Reagan and the Bushes were out in the open about their objectives. They promised to f*#k up the American worker and they did. The middle class is next.

I thought the workers were the middle class.

See, there's part of the problem. Since you're so good at analysis, analyze wages, incomes and shares of total wealth by income brackets in this country from 1970 on.
jstan

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
The corporate and employee share of US income from Bureau of Commerce.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=634


It is apparent profits have no limit if labor cost can be driven to zero. Salary and bonus for the CEO and their lieutenants of course are included in wages. If these are not so included the total compensation curve may look somewhat different.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 26, 2010 - 03:44am PT
This whole string is hilarious.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:28am PT
Bruce is right, and I am laughing. Bluey boy, settle down, contact your local Birch society branch and you will be alright. In the meantime, I'll ask the local priest to pray for you. Since I am an atheist, I can't. I am godless. Oh my gawd, I must be a commie. I'll hang myself now so you won't get the chance to do me in.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Feb 26, 2010 - 06:23am PT
Karl, you're probably right about Jesus. The difference is that he was truly benevolent, not seeking power, not greedy. He wasn't bound by the flaws of mankind.

Men (or women) CANNOT make communism work on any significant scale.

No pure system works and all for the same reasons... Impure human nature.

The reason US government sorta works is checks and balances. Capitalism needs that too.

Peace

Karl
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
Blue:
Go look at the "Creativity" thread.

These are the devils we have fought bitterly for fifty years.

To whose benefit?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
No pure system works and all for the same reasons... Impure human nature.

The reason US government sorta works is checks and balances. Capitalism needs that too.

I agree Karl.
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
FWIW:
Werner said something. "You got to let people be who they are."

Now that can sometimes be hard when you feel damage is being done.

Political correctness used to advise one always to walk away and let what will be, alone.

Political correctness has not served us well.

The time has come to sing out when we see a problem.

But do it with agreement as the goal.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
Well said, John, I agree.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
Dr. F, re-read John's post. It sounds like you'd agree too.

He's saying we're better served to speak out, as long as the goal is to reach a better comprehension if not an agreement.

To converse, have a dialogue.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 26, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
bluey said,
You just want to portray me as a toothless fool.

you are doing an adequate job of that yourself...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
Not many self identified Comunists left,











but plenty of Manchean Neojacobins.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
but plenty of Manchean Neojacobites.

Shh! Quiet!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
How many card-carrying Communists are there in the State Department, anyway? And what about the card-carrying Christianists? I always get the various 'ists' confused.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
Shh! Quiet!

One posted imediately after me.

They know we are on to them.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
Are you a commie, or a citizen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w86QhV7whjs
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
We need to look at the sand painting thread titled "creativity." These are the people we are labeling as "communists."

During the battle for Stalingrad these people were fighting the German Sixth army with little more than their bare hands at -40F. You notice what was shown in the paintings and the reaction of the audience? The pain was immense and lasts unto this day. They did not choose their economic system. It was forced upon them by a group of people having only one priority. To gain power. Only to gain power. Nothing more.

The German Army had to force Stalingrad so they might obtain needed energy supplies in the Caucasus. Baku for one. Germany needed oil. General Zhukov committed minimal support to the defense of the city because he was amassing thousands of tanks which would drive the Germans back in the spring, the time the Germans assumed they would be able to operate their armoured forces to better advantage.

During the winter the Russian troops and civilians were luring the German tanks out onto the ice by offering the tanks the chance to machine gun them. Leading the tanks into an area where they had weakened the ice was all the Russians had going for them.

We have our own communists here in the US. Our american communists also want only to have power. As a group their aims are not different from those of Lenin and Stalin. Even their methods are eerily similar.

Saying they will do something and then doing the exact opposite.

Lincoln said foreign soldiers will never drink from the Ohio. Our danger then was internal and of our own making.

As it is now.
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
If so Dingus, then these people will lead us to disaster. They also will partake of that disaster.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
Is Dr F a communist?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWeZ5SKXvj8
Jack Webb thinks so!
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Feb 26, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
My wife is from Russia, born in Leningrad, moved here from St. Petersburg.

Says that at least in the USSR the people knew that the crap on TV was Propaganda, many in the US don't...Seems like a contributing factor for Blue to consider.

jstan, I am almost done reading a book on Stalingrad and while there were many atrocities inflicted upon both sides, I never read about leading the tanks onto the ice. Not saying it didnt happen, I just never heard about it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
Says that at least in the USSR the people knew that the crap on TV was Propaganda, many in the US don't...Seems like a contributing factor for Blue to consider.

The older Soviet Stalinism isn't the same as the Marxism that people currently aspire for. Of course it usually turns into Stalinism in the end, but they seem to always start with Marxism/Leninism.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 26, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
blue - Not gonna do it...

Your links lead me to what looks like another one of your friends blogs... American thinker.. Are they a right wing think-tank? are they a group of nuts waiting for the black helicopters? Are they all stationed on top of a mountian with a huge weapons stockpile?

I don't know.. but I think it might be useful to reads some of what they have to say in order to determine just where the head is at...

this taken from your friends site:
"Follow my impeccable logic here: While anything can happen between now and the first Tuesday of November, 2012, as the situation exists today (absent a swift and substantial rightward shift by Obama, a dramatic drop in the unemployment rate, the emergence of the Tea Parties as a viable third party, a decision by Obama not to run, or the sudden appearance of a deus ex machina) Barack Obama is a one-term president. If present trends continue, the next president will be a Republican. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, your Aunt Petunia."


So, it turns out that this is one of those whacky groups I mentioned above... And I don't think that just because a nut, or even a group of nuts, is screaming about the right being right and the left wrong that they have any valid information, but if you chose to get all your information from them.. then that's your decision. Keep it up, you're doing just fine, and everything will turn out just fine for you, your family, and all your friends.


Sorry, couldn't watch the delightful vid you have supplied, as I am being oppressed by my emoployer from viewing from work. But this an be expected, because the republican want to give everything to the corporations so that this world is made a better place for all the right people....


I wish I had a checklist of all the left-wing/liberal blogs so that I can come back like you do ("See, jingy.. it's true 'cause this jackazz says so!) but i don't spend any of my time looking to them to give me perspective on the my world, like others do. I get all my feelings from within, I can make up my own mind about what I see going on around me, unlike others who have to be told by the radio what to like and what to hate.

I strongly suggest you take stock of your own situation, then put that up next to how your situation was yesterday, the month before, and the year or years before to see that.. well, if you are anything like the masses of unemployed, and fearing the worst employed (like me, always seems that I am about a paycheck and a half away from homelessness)... I'd think that you would see the error in your views.



But even still... we can get along, becuase you are still a human, and I know we all have limitations of understanding.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
It is a little known fact that the Just In Time Inventory strategy was devised by the Soviets at Stalingrad.

The Nazis and the Commies were duking it out over the huge Red October Tractor Factory. The Nazis occupied half, the Commies the other half. The Russkies were producing T-34 tanks at the factory, rolling them off the assembly line and right into the battle.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
My wife [...] says that at least in the USSR the people knew that the crap on TV was Propaganda

That is a very astute perspective.

I remember reading the Lonely Planet guide for Volgograd. There was a sentence along the lines of this:

"Even today, construction excavation routinely exposes mass graves."

Sitting here in peaceful suburbia, It's impossible for me to imagine horror on such an immense scale. It wasn't that long ago either.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
Jingy, that is what turned up when I googled what you were seekeing. There is a you-tube video under that link also.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
Guys,

Blue is here really as a double agent. He's the true communist. He's just trying to recruit people to his cause by trolling these boards and confusing us.

What is that report a communist hot-line phone number again?

I'm going to call it right now.
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
I'll have to try and find where the ice business was written up. It was associated with an analysis explaining Zhukov's lack of interest in supporting the battle in the city.

When I was working as a civilian for the US Navy they let my boss take a sabbatical at the Lebedev Institute, which I thought was most interesting, and useful. He said the people tended to get down and real the most when they were in their cups. Which makes sense when you factor in the extent to which Stalin had used informants to keep everyone terrified. Say the wrong thing and you found yourself in a gulag the next day. No due process.

As an undergrad I took two semesters of Russian. It is an interesting language and since we were adversaries I thought it would be good to know something more than "they are bad and we are good." Very hard language to speak and with all the other courses I simply had to give up. This was not long after the war. Mrs. Gourevich, the teacher, was extremely interesting. She had a little metal cigarette case she would pull out while lecturing and would carefully extract one cigarette while leaving the case open. She always broke the cigarettes into about one half inch lengths without dropping even one piece of tobacco, putting the second half back into the case. Then she would smoke it between thumb and forefinger because it was too short to hold any other way. Most of the other students were in the USAF hoping to learn enough so they would not be totally helpless if shot down. No way they were going to learn the speech well enough to pass.

And Dr. F, I support your valiant efforts to bring people to the point of discussing. It is an immense task and I am grateful you have taken it on.

Today we are functioning by hyperbole. I am trying to work in a slightly different manner. In hyperbole you put handles on the thought that fit into slots in the people, in the way chemicals gain access to the cell. I avoid that as I don't want to bring into play all the prepared pathways. Kerwin is right I am hopelessly constructionist but as our country descends into greater and greater pain the moment will come when people will realize this is going nowhere and we have to change.

We need to be ready to make the most of that moment when people restart their engines.

They will do that.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
Dam, I sooo wanted the "420" post on the Commie-pinko thread:-(
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
Thanks, DMT, but back at you:-)

From who, I don't know...
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
Was Panama Red a commie?
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
I think the problem is that the U.S. was from the very beginning founded as a social experiment and the definition of what is "American" is ongoing and always subject to revision. The only constant is change. When bluering talks about "our schools", "our family", or "our religion" what in the heck does he mean? Those terms have been changing for over 200 years and just aren't set in concrete yet. Of course, Blue would like to define them and hold onto his definitions forever, but real life just isn't like that.

"All things are a changing
Sage Heraclitus says,
But a tawdry cheapness
Shall outlast our days"

 Ezra Pound
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
talkes about "our schools", "our family", or "our religion" what in the heck does he mean?


That's the question.

Here's the answer:

http://vodpod.com/watch/2811023-the-daily-show-even-better-than-the-real-thing


Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 06:06pm PT

(Posted just to burn up this guys bandwidth)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 26, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
Gary, that photomontage, aside from being provovative, is inaccurate. Missing is Lavrenti Beria, the most powerful.

Could Trotsky, among others there, be defined as being "behind Stalin"?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
ROUND eyeglasses seem to have been in FASHION...

That's an easy way to spot a pinko, Locker...

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
Gary, that photomontage, aside from being provovative, is inaccurate. Missing is Lavrenti Beria, the most powerful.

Could Trotsky, among others there, be defined as being "behind Stalin"?

Well, the photo captions are in German, that'll tell you something about the "accuracy" of the line-up.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
What's interesting, and why I don't advocate the outright destruction of commies, is they're quite adept in the arts.

Music especially. Usually the lyrics lose me but the music kicks ass!!!! Take Rage Against The Machine for example. Or Lennon. Jimi it seems was a bit more conservative than most think though.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 08:10pm PT

"ROUND eyeglasses seem to have been in FASHION...


That's an easy way to spot a pinko, Locker..."...

Oh, no!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
So Bluey

Are you saying that all Jews are Communists

I think that is what your saying

You really are a fool, aren't you?


Lennon kicked ass, Wes, he was just misguided....
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
What's interesting, and why I don't advocate the outright destruction of commies, is they're quite adept in the arts.

That's mighty white of you, bluering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
F*#k off, Wes, there are currently found interviews of Jimi that go beyond what you're saying....

You are just too arrogant to assume someone like Jimi may have some traditional values.
Gene

Social climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
I found a Commie!
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Feb 26, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
BUMP!!

cuz chris had something climbing related he was asking us for our input on and communist-paranoidism is more important.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 09:22pm PT

It'll come out soon...

http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/jimi_hendrix-conservative/

Are you capable of using Google, Wes?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090401053806AAGnkRo
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 26, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
It is 20f*#king10, communism is no longer a factor, come up with some "climbing" posts.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 26, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
Whoa Ron...down boy, glad you don't know where my kids (if I had them) go to school.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 26, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
I found one of them subversive round eyeglass wearers.











DEATH PANEL!












This thread cracks me up.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
Feb 26, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
I bet chipmunks are commies.
Terrified.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 27, 2010 - 12:10am PT

Philo
Where can I git me some o' dem commie glasses????


Oh, I gots to have sum!!!!!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 27, 2010 - 10:27am PT
Vell comarade SteveDubski Ve can, as the corrupt imperialist youth say, hook you up.











The weird and wonderful world of Fattrad....
Jews=communists=democrats=socialists...

Maybe it's a Clash of Realizations.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 27, 2010 - 01:31pm PT

Matthew 19:16-30 (KJV)
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[24] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[25] When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[26] But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
[27] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
[30] But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.



Wow. Doing the right thing and treating others with love and taking care of others less fortunate and working out what really is truly important in life sounds like Communism.


Therefore, Doing the Right Thing = Communism.



Boy, I must be a Communist. (Tongue in cheek)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 27, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
No stems no seeds that you don't need, Fox News is bad ass weed.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
I like you Stewart, you're not like the other people, here in the trailer park

Yeah man!!!! Woot! You soooo kick ass!!!!
dirtbag

climber
Feb 28, 2010 - 04:25am PT
Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues

Well, I was feelin sad and feelin blue
I didnt know what in the world I wus gonna do
Them Communists they wus comin around
They wus in the air
They wus on the ground
They wouldnt gimme no peace . . .

So I run down most hurriedly
And joined up with the John Birch Society
I got me a secret membership card
And started off a-walkin down the road
Yee-hoo, Im a real John Bircher now!
Look out you Commies!

Now we all agree with Hitlers views
Although he killed six million Jews
It dont matter too much that he was a Fascist
At least you cant say he was a Communist!
Thats to say like if you got a cold you take a shot of malaria

Well, I wus lookin everywhere for them gol-darned Reds
I got up in the mornin n looked under my bed
Looked in the sink, behind the door
Looked in the glove compartment of my car
Couldnt find em . . .

I wus lookin high an low for them Reds everywhere
I wus lookin in the sink an underneath the chair
I looked way up my chimney hole
I even looked deep down inside my toilet bowl
They got away . . .

Well, I wus sittin home alone an started to sweat
Figured they wus in my T.V. set
Peeked behind the picture frame
Got a shock from my feet, hittin right up in the brain
Them Reds caused it!
I know they did . . . them hard-core ones

Well, I quit my job so I could work all alone
Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes
Followed some clues from my detective bag
And discovered they wus red stripes on the American flag!
That ol Betsy Ross . . .

Well, I investigated all the books in the library
Ninety percent of em gotta be burned away
I investigated all the people that I knowed
Ninety-eight percent of them gotta go
The other two percent are fellow Birchers . . . just like me

Now Eisenhower, hes a Russian spy
Lincoln, Jefferson and that Roosevelt guy
To my knowledge theres just one man
Thats really a true American: George Lincoln Rockwell
I know for a fact he hates Commies cus he picketed the movie Exodus

Well, I finly started thinkin straight
When I run outa things to investigate
Couldnt imagine doin anything else
So now Im sittin home investigatin myself!
Hope I dont find out anything . . . hmm, great God!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
So I was re-reading "A Brave New World" by Aldous 'the man' and the parallels to our current society and the directions we're heading are striking. (Good book for jury duty).

Comments?

Aldous was brilliant. He called it. F*#king amazing and shocking at the same time....
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 3, 2010 - 12:21am PT
Commies have the best 'staches.


Birchers, not so much.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 3, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
That must be a lot of fun to drive.
quietpartner

Trad climber
Moantannah
Mar 3, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
The bigger the drivin' rig, the smaller the....
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
Did ya'll know the Aldous Huxley and C.S. Lewis died the same day as JFK? Must've been the work of some covert commies...
dirtbag

climber
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
there's a red under my bed
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:13pm PT

I think I'm more afraid of those right wingers like bluey
than I am of communists. . .
dirtbag

climber
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
Kinda sad that people nowadays stay up late worrying about commies.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/9056

you dont need to look under the bed for red. just come to Seattle...of course this is the same Seattle that votes Democrat, pro-environment, yada yada....must be closet communists



[quote]Lenin Statue

Seattle, Washington


Fremont, self-proclaimed "Center of the Universe," is the venue for America's largest statue honoring Lenin.

No, kids -- not one of the Beatles, but Vladimir Illych Lenin, hero of the workers, Communism, and the former Soviet Union.

The 16-ft. tall bronze originated in Poprad, Czechoslovakia, where it was first erected in 1988. It tumbled along with other heroic (and out of fashion) statues when the Soviets went down in 1989. For a time, the 7-ton Lenin lay face down in the mud at the Poprad dump -- until rescued by American entrepreneur Lewis Carpenter. Carpenter, who admired the artistry, mortgaged his house to buy and transport the statue to Seattle.


Carpenter died in a car accident in 1994. To recover the statue debt, Carpenter's family made an arrangement to loan it to the Fremont district until a buyer emerged. Asking price: $150,000. In 1995, Fremont put the statue up in the center of town, near a Cold War era rocket also displayed as public art.

The statue was controversial and remains so -- especially to Russian immigrants. It's as if someone erected a sculpture of a Klansman in the deep South (wait -- someone has), or Chinese Communists sold tickets for a look at Tibetan temples outside Disney World (oh yeah, that too...). Or someone slapped up a statue of Mark David Chapman, assassin of John Lennon, in Strawberry Fields (not so far).

Sure, Lenin the Man endorsed the use of mass terror against his enemies, created the Soviet Union's secret police, and implemented policies that caused millions of peasant farmers to starve to death. But Lenin the Public Artwork is a beautifully crafted sculpture, and a catalyst for healthy discourse.

Today the statue -- still unsold -- is easily visible up the boulevard, past Organic Espresso and Kwangjai Thai Cuisine. He stands in front of a Taco Del Mar restaurant. Locals and passersby pause in his shadow on their cell phones, or rest on the monument steps after a hard morning of shopping. Ironically, he cant be photographed without the Mexican fast food signs around him.

In the end, a Capitalist victory? Not really a We Won message like the Lenin that once stood in Dallas , or the decapitated Lenin in in Las Vegas.

This one seems to say: "Whenever the world is ready for Communism again, freaky lefty Fremont will be there! Please buy this statue."
quote]
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
Far right a-holes like Jim Bunning are holding this country hostage in a way the communists wouldn't have considered possible in their wildest dreams.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
Hawkeye, at first glimpse I was gonna guess the Lenin tribute was in Vermont...

Far right a-holes like Jim Bunning are holding this country hostage in a way the communists wouldn't have considered possible in their wildest dreams.

Wow! Holding the entire country hostage? Really??? And don't underestimate good commies, Jim, they're quite capable. Look back at history. Sh#t, look at Venezuela, the newest commie to hit the scene.
jstan

climber
Mar 3, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
A recent piece by Niall Ferguson in the LA Times suggests empires need not fail slowly. They can fail very quickly.


latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ferguson

28-2010feb28,
latimes.com

Opinion

America, the fragile empire

Here today, gone tomorrow -- could the United States fall that fast?

By Niall Ferguson

February 28, 2010


For centuries, historians, political theorists, anthropologists and the public have tended to think about the political process in seasonal, cyclical terms. From Polybius to Paul Kennedy, from ancient Rome to imperial Britain, we discern a rhythm to history. Great powers, like great men, are born, rise, reign and then gradually wane. No matter whether civilizations decline culturally, economically or ecologically, their downfalls are protracted.

In the same way, the challenges that face the United States are often represented as slow-burning. It is the steady march of demographics -- which is driving up the ratio of retirees to workers -- not bad policy that condemns the public finances of the United States to sink deeper into the red. It is the inexorable growth of China's economy, not American stagnation, that will make the gross domestic product of the People's Republic larger than that of the United States by 2027.

As for climate change, the day of reckoning could be as much as a century away. These threats seem very remote compared with the time frame for the deployment of U.S. soldiers to Afghanistan, in which the unit of account is months, not years, much less decades.

But what if history is not cyclical and slow-moving but arrhythmic -- at times almost stationary but also capable of accelerating suddenly, like a sports car? What if collapse does not arrive over a number of centuries but comes suddenly, like a thief in the night?

Great powers are complex systems, made up of a very large number of interacting components that are asymmetrically organized, which means their construction more resembles a termite hill than an Egyptian pyramid. They operate somewhere between order and disorder. Such systems can appear to operate quite stably for some time; they seem to be in equilibrium but are, in fact, constantly adapting. But there comes a moment when complex systems "go critical." A very small trigger can set off a "phase transition" from a benign equilibrium to a crisis -- a single grain of sand causes a whole pile to collapse.

Not long after such crises happen, historians arrive on the scene. They are the scholars who specialize in the study of "fat tail" events -- the low-frequency, high-impact historical moments, the ones that are by definition outside the norm and that therefore inhabit the "tails" of probability distributions -- such as wars, revolutions, financial crashes and imperial collapses. But historians often misunderstand complexity in decoding these events. They are trained to explain calamity in terms of long-term causes, often dating back decades. This is what Nassim Taleb rightly condemned in "The Black Swan" as "the narrative fallacy."

In reality, most of the fat-tail phenomena that historians study are not the climaxes of prolonged and deterministic story lines; instead, they represent perturbations, and sometimes the complete breakdowns, of complex systems.

To understand complexity, it is helpful to examine how natural scientists use the concept. Think of the spontaneous organization of termites, which allows them to construct complex hills and nests, or the fractal geometry of water molecules as they form intricate snowflakes. Human intelligence itself is a complex system, a product of the interaction of billions of neurons in the central nervous system.

All these complex systems share certain characteristics. A small input to such a system can produce huge, often unanticipated changes -- what scientists call "the amplifier effect." Causal relationships are often nonlinear, which means that traditional methods of generalizing through observation are of little use. Thus, when things go wrong in a complex system, the scale of disruption is nearly impossible to anticipate.

There is no such thing as a typical or average forest fire, for example. To use the jargon of modern physics, a forest before a fire is in a state of "self-organized criticality": It is teetering on the verge of a breakdown, but the size of the breakdown is unknown. Will there be a small fire or a huge one? It is nearly impossible to predict. The key point is that in such systems, a relatively minor shock can cause a disproportionate disruption.

Any large-scale political unit is a complex system. Most great empires have a nominal central authority -- either a hereditary emperor or an elected president -- but in practice the power of any individual ruler is a function of the network of economic, social and political relations over which he or she presides. As such, empires exhibit many of the characteristics of other complex adaptive systems -- including the tendency to move from stability to instability quite suddenly.

The most recent and familiar example of precipitous decline is the collapse of the Soviet Union. With the benefit of hindsight, historians have traced all kinds of rot within the Soviet system back to the Brezhnev era and beyond. Perhaps, as the historian and political scientist Stephen Kotkin has argued, it was only the high oil prices of the 1970s that "averted Armageddon." But this did not seem to be the case at the time. The Soviet nuclear arsenal was larger than the U.S. stockpile. And governments in what was then called the Third World, from Vietnam to Nicaragua, had been tilting in the Soviets' favor for most of the previous 20 years.

Yet, less than five years after Mikhail Gorbachev took power, the Soviet imperium in central and Eastern Europe had fallen apart, followed by the Soviet Union itself in 1991. If ever an empire fell off a cliff, rather than gently declining, it was the one founded by Lenin.

If empires are complex systems that sooner or later succumb to sudden and catastrophic malfunctions, what are the implications for the United States today? First, debating the stages of decline may be a waste of time -- it is a precipitous and unexpected fall that should most concern policymakers and citizens. Second, most imperial falls are associated with fiscal crises. Alarm bells should therefore be ringing very loudly indeed as the United States contemplates a deficit for 2010 of more than $1.5 trillion -- about 11% of GDP, the biggest since World War II.

These numbers are bad, but in the realm of political entities, the role of perception is just as crucial. In imperial crises, it is not the material underpinnings of power that really matter but expectations about future power. The fiscal numbers cited above cannot erode U.S. strength on their own, but they can work to weaken a long-assumed faith in the United States' ability to weather any crisis.

One day, a seemingly random piece of bad news -- perhaps a negative report by a rating agency -- will make the headlines during an otherwise quiet news cycle. Suddenly, it will be not just a few policy wonks who worry about the sustainability of U.S. fiscal policy but the public at large, not to mention investors abroad. It is this shift that is crucial: A complex adaptive system is in big trouble when its component parts lose faith in its viability.

Over the last three years, the complex system of the global economy flipped from boom to bust -- all because a bunch of Americans started to default on their subprime mortgages, thereby blowing huge holes in the business models of thousands of highly leveraged financial institutions. The next phase of the current crisis may begin when the public begins to reassess the credibility of the radical monetary and fiscal steps that were taken in response.

Neither interest rates at zero nor fiscal stimulus can achieve a sustainable recovery if people in the United States and abroad collectively decide, overnight, that such measures will ultimately lead to much higher inflation rates or outright default. Bond yields can shoot up if expectations change about future government solvency, intensifying an already bad fiscal crisis by driving up the cost of interest payments on new debt. Just ask Greece.

Ask Russia too. Fighting a losing battle in the mountains of the Hindu Kush has long been a harbinger of imperial fall. What happened 20 years ago is a reminder that empires do not in fact appear, rise, reign, decline and fall according to some recurrent and predictable life cycle. It is historians who retrospectively portray the process of imperial dissolution as slow-acting. Rather, empires behave like all complex adaptive systems. They function in apparent equilibrium for some unknowable period. And then, quite abruptly, they collapse.

Washington, you have been warned.

Niall Ferguson is a professor at Harvard University and Harvard Business School, and a fellow of Jesus College, Oxford. His latest book is "The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World." A longer version of this essay appears in the March/April issue of Foreign Affairs.

Copyright 2010, The Los Angeles Times


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
Fighting a losing battle in the mountains of the Hindu Kush has long been a harbinger of imperial fall.

So this implies that nobody will ever have a successful campaign in the Hindu-Kush? Bullshit! With Pakistani support, it's a done deal. Which is what we have and the Russkies never had.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
How do I ignore history, genius????
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 3, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
If communism was our big worry, I'd be a happy man.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
Manichean Jacobins

Plenty of them around.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
Let's see... you will never see battle, the Uhmerikun empire will likely fall before your son comes of age, you ignore history, you are afraid of Commies, you don't like to pay taxes, and you despise the federal deficit.

Clearly we are dealing with a rational person here.

Again, how am I ignoring history, genius???
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
Manichean Jacobins

I think you just quoted one. Bluey.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
What the f*#k are you talking about, Wes? The Russians tried to conquer Afghanistan with no regard for civilians, it was an indiscriminate takeover! Of course, the ENTIRE country rallied against them with a little help from their anti-commie friends, U.S.

What we're doing there now is way different, and unlike anything anybody had done before. That is, ridding the place of oppressive religious thugs, and helping to put in place a humane gov't, while at the same time rebuilding the country like it has never been before.

And it's working. The Taliban have resorted to bombing innocent civilians in their last throws of retaliation.

Lights out Taliban. Time to cash in on your virgins...in a really hot place.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
Aldous was describing life in dr. F's progressive utopia.

Both the Dr, and Wes seem to suffer from the same reading comprehension problems.





Dyslexia anyone?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
Dr. F, re-read the book. And read a history book too.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
How's that Iraq thing doing? Must be swell over there since I don't hear anything about it anymore.

I'll ask my kid when he gets back next month.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 4, 2010 - 12:18am PT
The Russians tried to conquer Afghanistan with no regard for civilians, it was an indiscriminate takeover! Of course, the ENTIRE country rallied against them with a little help from their anti-commie friends, U.S.

What we're doing there now is way different, and unlike anything anybody had done before.

Wow! Did you miss the news about the 27 civilians we killed last week? Or just conveniently forget it?

In a video distributed Tuesday in Dari and Pashto, the main languages spoken in Afghanistan, the top NATO commander here Gen. Stanley McChrystal said he was sorry to the nation for 27 civilian deaths, after US special forces killed a convoy of Afghan civilians they had mistaken for insurgents. It was the coalitions deadliest mistake in six months.

While public apologies by NATO have become almost commonplace this was just one of half a dozen in the past 10 days, and the second by McChrystal himself the push to admit mistakes and say sorry is unprecedented in NATOs nine-year intervention in Afghanistan. It fits into McChyrstals new strategy that prioritizes winning over the population.

Doublethink in action!

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which canceled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
The Russians tried to conquer Afghanistan with no regard for civilians, it was an indiscriminate takeover! Of course, the ENTIRE country rallied against them with a little help from their anti-commie friends, U.S.

What we're doing there now is way different, and unlike anything anybody had done before.

Wow! Did you miss the news about the 27 civilians we killed last week? Or just conveniently forget it?

Gary, we're getting off the the topic here, but re-read what I said. The Russians didn't really have a regard for killing civi's.

In our current operation, Moshatarak, that you cite, we had given a week's notice that we going to sweep through the area and it would be very dangerous for civilians. They were advised to leave for camps set up for them in Lashkar Gah.

We have a much higher regard for the welfare of civis...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 4, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
Sorry he had to go in the first place. Glad he's coming home.

He had a choice. He wanted to go.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 4, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
Gary, we're getting off the the topic here, but re-read what I said. The Russians didn't really have a regard for killing civi's.

Oh, in that case I'm sure they feel a lot better knowing that they were killed in high regard.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 5, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
some don't really.

Then they should have not joined.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Naxal-founder-Kanu-Sanyal-kills-himself/H1-Article1-522311.aspx

I actually know a Sikh communist from India. Operates a liquor store on my way to CRSP weekend climbs. He told me once he was a local town commie leader. I joked that we could no longer be friends. I said I was kidding...

He's a nice guy, 2 pothead kids I used to score from. We actually smoked a joint in the beer cooler once!

Anyway, Maoists in India are a somewhat manageable problem. The Indian aren't as PC at 'dispatching' the violent ones. They don't tolerate the whole neo-Marxist anarchy thing.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 23, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
Anyone care to discuss Prop 13? How's that working out for California? Who REALLY benefits from that

The little old lady who has had the same house for 50 years and who would otherwise be taxed out of her own house just because her neighbor sold theirs. She has no income and has no way to gain benefit from her neighbors house being sold yet that very thing would raise her taxes that she has to pay to stay it her own house.

That is who benefits.

Dave
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 23, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
Since the proverbial "little old lady"'s house has risen in value from $30 k to $650k over her holding period, I don't think it would have been impossible for her to take out a second mortgage if she was being outed for non-payment of taxes. Meanwhile the neighbor family has three kids, both parents have to work two jobs, so they can pay 10 times as much in taxes for the exact same house, since they had to buy high. What gives? Put the burden on the young and struggling.

But the real beneficiaries are the corporations - and they largely financed prop 13 originally. Since they are "perpetual" entities, they never die they never have to sell property, so they get to pay the same low tax rates in perpetuity.
Average residential house turns over every 8 years. But those who don't sell get windfall benefit. Why shouldn't everyone help pay for civilization equally?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
Alex. What the f*#k is your problem????

If you give an obscure answer you're a fag.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 12:58am PT
dude, calling someone a fag is weak bro, come up with some new material.

A couple things...

1st reaction - F*#k off!!! Don't tell me what to say. Especially if it ain't FAG related!!!


2nd reaction - Why is that offensive to you? Is redneck, meth-head, whitey, cracker, white-trash or some other sh#t offensive?

Do we react equally?

Really? Think about it. Who's the racist?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 01:00am PT
alex, don't even TRY to talk to me. You are crazy, or a troll.....
apogee

climber
Mar 24, 2010 - 02:15am PT
"Think about it. Who's the racist? "

That was clear to me a long time ago. Didn't take a whole lot of thinking, either.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Mar 24, 2010 - 03:59am PT
Is this thread still going on? I must admit I'm amazed! All rational argument ends when name calling begins.
jstan

climber
Mar 24, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
You know when someone is going off the deep end, it seems an opportunity to move things in a better direction.

Fogeddaboutit.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
Lot of longevity for a post about a subject as out of date as communism.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
Damn! Hadn't thought about that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
http://www.cpusa.org/

yeah, communists are an old myth.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
Nah... I caught one just the other night hiding behind my wife's shoes in the closet.
UncleDoug

Mountain climber
Places unkown
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
Bluey,

You'd fit right in with that group of communist homophobes.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Thanks for the laugh Donini!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
Bluey,

You'd fit right in with that group of communist homophobes.

#1 - I'm not a homophobe, I just don't agree with the lifestyle. Do whatever you want in your house if you're not harming anyone.

#2 - Commies love homos. They hate the traditional nuclear family. Just as they hate religion.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
Do you really think that only communists hate religion? How about rationalists.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 24, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
A lot of religious people hate religions other than their own.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
Do you really think that only communists hate religion?

No.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 24, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
What is Communism?

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wccIqjrGGMk

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg6yXwoEduM
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
I'm not sure if you're posting that mock me or not , Ed, but there's a lot of truth to it.

I like the part about class warfare and especially the clever names of commie groups.

'The American League for Peace and Democracy' sounds akin to the 'American Civil Liberties Union', 'People for the American Way', and the 'Southern Poverty Law Center'.

Yeah, right, communism can't happen here...
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 24, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
Funny quote from many in Part 1:

"I hope you are more than shocked. I hope that you are aroused."
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 24, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
I think that it raised a fear in people for a particular political agenda at the time, which was reprehensible, especially in a country supposedly founded on the principles including freedom to associate with any political organization.

The American Civil Liberties Union is not a communist organization. You are very poorly informed if you have been told that, it is easy to see what the ACLU is for, who it represents... and while that may not be very popular, I suspect you'd be surprised at whose rights they have advocated for in their history. You could take a few moments before posting about them again and at least going to their web site: http://www.aclu.org/

Similarly the Southern Poverty Law Center, http://www.splcenter.org/ or you can look at the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center after which please report back here why this is "like communism"

I find your uncritical acceptance of a information from the news media to be most disturbing.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 12:36am PT
Ed, I watch the cases those two groups take and it's a personal opinion of mine that they are interested in un-American activities. I'll put together a few reasons why when I get a chance.

The head of the SPLC is really a rat in my book. Southern Poverty Law Center? Yeah, right!!!!

What kind of name is that???
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:40am PT
when you say "unAmerican" you have to define what you mean.... individuals have rights independent of the majority's opinion
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:49am PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
SEIU targets BofA exec's personal home

http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/19/news/companies/SEIU_Bank_of_America_protest.fortune/

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=297177&D=2010-05-20&SO=&HC=3

Not really Marxists, quite, but more like World Workers Int'l types. I would have a taken a garden hose to them all...at first. Cops did squat too, when called.

f*#king lame...
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 20, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
Damn! I hate it when billionaires are inconvenienced!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
Apparently his neighbors were too, including journalist Nina Easton.

And, my Dad was an Int'l Operations exec for BofA. His is no billionaire...In fact he's a very honest, decent man.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
Someday you or I could be a rich banker just scraping by on a nine figure bonus, so we should always vote in a way that protects that lifestyle for the day when you or I attain it, right?

That's the only reason I can think of for a poor or middle-class person to be stupid enough to vote Republican.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 20, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
History has spoken...


Note that this is climbing related - very nice granite.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 20, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
Apparently his neighbors were too, including journalist Nina Easton.

Nnnnnnoooooo!!!!!!!!!! Not Nina Easton, too!!!!!!!!!!! O! the humanity!

And, my Dad was an Int'l Operations exec for BofA. His is no billionaire...In fact he's a very honest, decent man.

Well, Parvati is a decent gal, but she hitched her wagon to Russell Hantz and it cost her $1,000,000.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
Gary, hopefully you'd agree that it's a pathetic state of affairs when the police won't do anything for fear of 'inciting the crowd'. WTF????

They were trespassing!!! And causing a public disturbance on private property!

I don't know if I would have been able to contain myself. After a warning, I think the homeowner has a right to 'forcefully' encourage people to get off his property.

Baseball bat, say hello to kneecaps. Then the weak-kneed cops would prolly show. And arrest the the wrong person. Pathetic...


EDIT:

Well, Parvati is a decent gal, but she hitched her wagon to Russell Hantz and it cost her $1,000,000.


This is where you people make stupid generalizations about execs. My Dad has been married to the same woman for 50 years. He's very happy too. And he's no millionaire. Maybe close, I dunno. I just know that you people don't see the real face of common bank execs, instead just assume all bankers are blood suckers making billions.

Whatever...get real.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
May 20, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
bluering,

You are reaping the harvest you have sown.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
bluering, you are the king of "stupid generalizations" (e.g. unamerican, communists, etc.).

You should spend more time at http://rantburg.com/ with the other knee-jerks.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
bluering, you are the king of "stupid generalizations" (i.e. unamerican, communists, etc.).

Wanda, so you disagree with me that these SEIU idiots are just commie-esque brats? For you to assume all banks execs are blood-thirsty guys making millions hand-over-fist is a bit ridiculous.

Doug, WTF do you mean?
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
What makes them "commie-esque", bluey?

What makes them "brats"?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
Because they want home loans and houses without any risk. They want a high-risk loan for next to no risk and don't expect to pay their dues when things turn bad on their 'gamble'.

You rolled...you lost. Live with it. DON'T EXPECT THE BANKS TO ABSORB YOUR IDIOCY!

In other words, they want cheap, free housing...at no risk!

Brats, because they all appear to be trouble makers that want something for nothing.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
bluering,

You make a lot of assumptions about their motives. Do you think these are the type of people that were flipping houses?

And where in the hell do you get that they want "free" housing? It's one thing to generalize and exagerrate, but try not to pull stuff out of your ass.

I don't think they "appear" to want something for nothing; maybe they just want to not be taken advantage of.
Augie

Mountain climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 20, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
"Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?"

All we need is a comprehensive list of all subjects that are "American" and then prohibit public protests focusing on those subjects. Perfect. Just to make sure nothing goes amiss, let's come up with a list of groups that should not be allowed to protest at all whatever the subject. To make this all a little easier to accomplish, let's eliminate some of those troublesome parts of the 1st Amendment like free speech and freedom of association. Founding Fathers really sent us in the wrong direction with that one! Sounds like, well, sounds alot like a system that Communist governments see as essential.





P.S. I didn't see on your list the Michigan Militia, unless you don't consider the charge against them, sedition against the USA, "sh##ing on the flag."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
I don't think they "appear" to want something for nothing; maybe they just want to not be taken advantage of.

Taken advantage of how?


EDIT:

I didn't see on your list the Michigan Militia, unless you don't consider the charge against them, sedition against the USA, "sh##ing on the flag."

Let's see if those charges stick.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 20, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
Taken advantage of how?

Through their efforts they create wealth. The capitalists then steal, oopsie, I mean accumulate, this wealth. Then call the people freeloaders and lazy because they have the audacity to want to keep what is theirs.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 20, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
The one thing that I never really liked about Jesus was his Communist tendency: redistribution of wealth, camels through the eyes of needles and all that stuff, really anti Capitalist, anti American dribble. If it weren't for the money changers I wouldn't have my big screen or my BMW, and that's a fact!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
Through their efforts they create wealth. The capitalists then steal, oopsie, I mean accumulate, this wealth. Then call the people freeloaders and lazy because they have the audacity to want to keep what is theirs.

WTF are you talking about? The people who lost their houses took ridiculous loans out they could never afford. When foreclosed upon, you think the banks made millions off these loans??? Have you seen the housing market?

Granted some sketchy traders made money, but not BofA. They were out of the biz in 2001, prolly because they saw it was a house of cards. I'd say, good for them.

BofA ain't the demon here. Look up what Fannie/Freddie were involved in under the pressure of guys like Barney Frank, Acorn, and Chris Dodd.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 21, 2010 - 12:00am PT
WTF are you talking about?

I was about to ask you the same thing.

It's funny how you conservatives always project the faults of the capitalists onto the working stiffs of this country.

Corporations get BILLIONS in welfare from the government, but the tea baggers complain about welfare moms and their Cadillacs. (Even though Ronnie Raygun pulled that out of his ass)

Some guy works 50 hour weeks at Wal-mart, but has to get food stamps to survive, and tea baggers call him lazy.

Meanwhile, your capitalist masters laugh all the way to the bank. They make billions, they keep it. They lose billions, suckers like you pay for it.

Keep voting Republican.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
Have I said that I hate Commies yet????

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=300063&D=2010-07-01&SO=&HC=1
or
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100626/jsp/bengal/story_12612676.jsp

Lessons from the Mao play-book. Nice!

They're sooooo humane!

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=300062&D=2010-07-01&SO=&HC=1
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:13am PT
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:18am PT
I'm a communist. sorta.


Hi!
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:29am PT
rantburg?

Have I said that bluering is an idiot yet???

You must actively go out looking to be manipulated--to get wound up and angry so you can spew it all out with a sense of righteous indignation like you enjoy it. Weird.

The problem isn't communists, the problem is with True Believers and what they are capable of. They might be communists, anti-communists, capitalists, fascists, christians, muslims, whatever. Humans have been doing this kind of sh#t to other humans forever.
Jeremy Handren

climber
NV
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:44am PT
"Have I said that bluering is an idiot yet???"

Do you have to?
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jul 2, 2010 - 09:39am PT
boy there are some bent people on this site.
hmm. must be the rich see their power base slipping away and need to diss anyone who helps those in need (ACLU etc>>)

this struggle between the haves and have nots has been going on for thousands of years..
lose the rant, open your eyes and sit in someone else's shoes for once..

funny how those who bang the drum the loudest for WAR are the ones who get the deferments to stay out of war. Cheney, rumsfield, wolfowitz and bush not really there when he was supped to..
my rant, take it or leave it..
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2010 - 10:49am PT
open your eyes and sit in someone else's shoes for once

this was worth repeating, although sitting in blueeys shoes might really suck...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 2, 2010 - 11:58am PT
bluering said
WTF are you talking about? The people who lost their houses took ridiculous loans out they could never afford. When foreclosed upon, you think the banks made millions off these loans??? Have you seen the housing market?


Depends on which banks you mean, bluering. You don't really seem to understand how this all worked. Many of those banks made TONS of money off those loans because they simply originated the loan and then sold it to someone else. They never had to actually carry the risk, which is why the loans got riskier and riskier and the market finally collapsed. The people who lost so much money in the end were the banks that BOUGHT those loans as long term investments and those people/institutions that invested in those banks.

C'mon bluering that is pretty fundamental knowledge of this issue. Don't go all e-raging about it if you haven't actually been paying attention.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
Clearly he hasn't been paying attention.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
I wonder if bluering could post for us an objective definition of a communist.
apogee

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
If he posts his own definition, it kinda loses it's objectivity, dunnit?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
Wow. 600.
apogee

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
Actually, 602.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Well, to judge from bluering's posts (and others), there are apparently a lot of vicious dangerous communists loose in the USA. I want to know what to watch out for when I'm in your country, for example at the FaceLift. There are lots of people at that event, and it worries me that one or more may be commie infiltrators. That FatTrad guy, for example - if giving away free BBQ isn't communism, what is? And all those people "volunteering" to help - what's that all about?

It's really for my own safety and security. I'll check with Ron et al as to what ordnance will be necessary to defend myself.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
It's much easier to see the world in black and white when you're uncouth.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
komrade MH, you should be fine so long as you know the right salute and share all of your alcohol and food
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
Listen to Hawkeye, MH. Just bring lots of beer and no harm will be done to you.

Well, except for your liver maybe. But then you can get a free liver transplant from those godless communist doctors in Canada.
pc

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
With the recent bust of the spy ring in New York, we have to think, 'there are others out there...' Possibly even fellow Tacos!

Following the profile, I suggest we look at the most unlikely (best disguised) first. Does anyone here really know anything about Blue"spy"ring's past?

There are other, obviously well disguised candidates as well. You know who you are.
















;)
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
I am what I am. Who are we?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
About that Russian spy ring...

What top secret info did they actually obtain? It kind of seems like a joke.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
They didn't which is why they aren't being charged with espionage. They were "undeclared agents of a foreign power" I think is the term that is being used.



Amazingly, none of them were in Code Pink! (Seriously, if you think Code Pink is anything but a bunch of outspoken ninnies than you are not very well able to ascertain Threats To Democracy).
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
Stupidist thread ever? Let me add to the disaster:

Super commie spy Anna Chapman is haught.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
They stole Jamba Juice's latest smoothie recipe and the price gun from that insurance chick.
Believe me man, it was serious. Like the Walker case only more insidious.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
actually anna chapman was trying to be one of tigers girls and then persuade him to defect.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
It seems like over the last 20 years or so, the only spies being caught and convicted in the US are Israeli. What's that all about? I know Israel's origins were socialist, but I didn't know they were commies.

And this "Cosmic Cragsman" guy, what about him? It sort of sounds like communist cragsman, to me.

While we're on these fascinating, arcane, subjects, can someone define what "unAmerican" is? As there are 300 million of you, and a rather diverse bunch at that, it gets very confusing.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
While we're on these fascinating, arcane, subjects, can someone define what "unAmerican" is?

Just look in the mirror pal. We're on to you Marxist fanatics from Canuckistan.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 2, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
shoot Blue, you have it all wrong!! Those are all just good natured peace loving "ethinc" groups that we should be welcoming with open amnesty cluases just like BO wants us too......But of course ,, knowing his complete disdain for the constitution,,,,he tends to bend toward the commie end of things as well....


At least he has some respect for grammar and punctuation. Christ.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 3, 2010 - 02:38am PT
Just look in the mirror pal. We're on to you Marxist fanatics from Canuckistan.
OK, will do. But one of my grandmothers was born in the US, and I have quite a lot of second and more distant cousins who live there. Plus I live only 50 km from the border, and sometimes go to the US. So I figure I'm at least 0.31487% American, maybe more. The trouble is, how can I tell when it's my good side that's manifesting itself?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 3, 2010 - 02:40am PT
It's ok, MH. Most of us Americans are commies too. What you fail to recognize is that people like bluering insist on loving America but declaring that the vast majority of Americans are in fact "unamerican" for not subscribing to his hard right jingoistic worldview.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 3, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
I was wondering that myself. Isn't "red" another word for commie? Does that mean Republicans are commies? And the "blue" thing - are all Democrats true blue?

Put me down with the purples, eh?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 11:01am PT
Bwahahahaha!!! Chavez is such a putz....

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=300206&D=2010-07-04&SO=&HC=3

commie!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 11:20am PT
why am I cheap too???
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
Dr. F, you can't even use your own material? You have to quote some BS from another, more witty, poster?

Weak....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 4, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
Because it has been said to you before and you blue it off. It's just a reminder..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
Do you deny an active communist party at work in the U.S.? Some of whom are at high levels of gov't?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
This day reminds me of America's ideals that millions have given their lives to uphold; You have the right to be a communist in this country. Not sure why anyone would want to be a commie but I support your right to be one never the less.

Andy, I do agree with freedom to hold communistic views. The problem I have is it's advocated to change our system of governing the country. Many 'useful idiots' as they were called thought it sounded like a great idea too. The concept is appealing to many. The problem is it is NEVER implemented they way people thought.

It NEVER has worked in the interest of freedom or prosperity. Me, I like freedom and prosperity, and despise oppression and loss of individual liberty.

That is why I crusade against commies. See you at the Facelift!


EDIT: I believe it's pretty well documented that McCarthy was onto something in his commie-hunt BITD.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Jul 4, 2010 - 03:50pm PT





I like freedom and prosperity, and despise oppression and loss of individual liberty . . . I believe it's pretty well documented that McCarthy was onto something in his commie-hunt BITD.

No cognitive dissonance there?





I crusade against commies.

Do you wear a cape?
























bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
As is typical in conspiracies and counter-culture activity, it easiest to marginalize people, to call them paranoid.

Sometimes they're right, Johnson.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jul 4, 2010 - 05:49pm PT

COMMUNISTS R US!!!!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 5, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
I believe it's pretty well documented that McCarthy was onto something in his commie-hunt BITD

Whatever one thinks of communism, it is hard to view Joseph McCarthy as anything other than either a paranoid madman or a gold-digging witch hunter. His accusations are in the classic mold of political/religious persecution illustrated countless times throughout history. If you can demonize a word, and get that demonization accepted by the masses, you're in a position to destroy anyone you wish.

Don't like Bluering? Then just accuse him of being a commie (jew, homosexual, aristocrat, witch, catholic, tutu, hutsi, whatever...) and there's no need to prove anything. And no defense is possible. Kind of like the old British military court system: "He's bound to be guilty or he wouldn't be here."

So, just what documentation shows that Senator McCarthy was "on to something"? And just what was he "on to"? That some American citizens were believers in communism? I'm not an American, but I believe the constitution of the United States of America is pretty clear about the right of citizens to believe in what they choose, and to speak publicly about those beliefs.

Could be I'm wrong, and I'll certainly listen to what you have to say, but it seems to me that Senator McCarthy was an alcoholic madman who saw a chance to grab the spotlight, and didn't care that grabbing it had an enormous cost to the nation and its citizens.

D
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 6, 2010 - 12:17am PT
McCarthy had the Big Lie mastered and then some. But there was just a tiny kernel of truth in what he said. Communism did exist, and did threaten the US, and there were a few - very few - Americans who actually were Communists. Just enough for McCarthy and his supporters to hang their hats on. One of those supporters being Richard Nixon, who made his career as a red-baiter.

It was all grotesquely exaggerated by McCarthy, and the real internal threat to the US was not great. The Russians, for example, would soon enough have developed atomic and thermonuclear weapons, with or without leaks from a few spies. And their missile program was mostly home grown.

Witch-hunts are sadly nothing new in the US, particularly in combination with nativist zeal.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 6, 2010 - 12:48am PT
Witch-hunts are sadly nothing new in the US, particularly in combination with nativist zeal.

Your anti-Americanism is showing, Anders. There are a lot of places where witch hunts are a lot more common and more devastating than they've ever been in the US. Which is not to say that McCarthy and his cronies don't deserve to be resoundingly condemned, but come on, you make it sound like the US is the witch hunt capital of the universe. Your grasp of history is better than that.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 6, 2010 - 01:09am PT
I didn't say anything about other countries - we're discussing mostly the US. You rightly pointed out that witch-hunts are common to humanity, and I didn't have anything to add.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 6, 2010 - 01:19am PT
bluering said
As is typical in conspiracies and counter-culture activity, it easiest to marginalize people, to call them paranoid.


More irony in this thread.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2010 - 01:25am PT
So, just what documentation shows that Senator McCarthy was "on to something"? And just what was he "on to"?

Funny, the Canadians chime in.....

Here ya go love!!!!
http://www.rense.com/politics6/mc.htm
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2010 - 01:34am PT
Don't make me come over there, Locker....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 6, 2010 - 01:58am PT
If McCarthy was "on to something" then why did democracy persist after he was disgraced and his hearings ended? McCarthy failed and yet we are not a communist state and the communist party in this country is basically non-existent. The proof is in the pudding.

Also, you're supporting someone who literally persecuted people for their beliefs? You don't see the irony (and hypocrisy) there? Using government power to literally blacklist people and pressure others into not dealing with them based on their alleged ideology and potential association at any length with people? You talk of tyranny for providing health care to those who cannot get it and yet you defend this man?
jstan

climber
Jul 6, 2010 - 02:11am PT
I am going to repeat something I said earlier. Nations die when citizens are no longer able to reason together. If I wanted to destroy the US right now I would dig up every dead horse and get everyone to spend all their energy beating them. There will be no resolution of any of this and frankly none is needed. If we don't act this way, if we try to avoid further polarization,and if we try very hard to talk reasonably and logically about the questions we must answer

won't we be far ahead?

This isn't entertainment.

We are at stake.
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
Communist Cuba is going to steer away from it's state-controlled (communist) economy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-10834192
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 3, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
i have spent what i call a significant amount of time in Russia and before the WALL came crashing down, eastern bloc countries.

they feared us worse than we feared them. walk in their shoes for a while and you will see why there was a cold war.

bluey just dropped too much acid as a teenager....
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
they feared us worse than we feared them. walk in their shoes for a while and you will see why there was a cold war.

Why don't you elaborate since you think you're such an expert? Educate us fools, Hawkeye.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 3, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
Russia was invaded twice in the 20th century. How's that for starters?
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 3, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
plus the hairy women,

is this the LSD thread?


Ringo tonite with lil ricky and edgar,
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 3, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 3, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
gary,

you clearly have no idear about russian woman. that is the thing that sticks out in my mind (pun intended) they were gorgeous.



bluey - they have bomb shelters like us and as someone mentioned earlier, they put up with two wars, lost more folks than anyone in the great war. as my russian friends say (referring to Bushes time as president), at least russians knew their government was feeding them a line of sh#t, we americans swallowed it whole.

bluering

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
at least russians knew their government was feeding them a line of sh#t, we americans swallowed it whole.

Hopefully you refer to far more than just Fox News. MSNBC is out of control! I would agree that the MSM is in large part in Obama's favorable camp as illustrated by the JournoList.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 3, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
i think his head exploded and he is desperately trying to fill the orifce with more than air...
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
i think his head exploded and he is desperately trying to fill the orifce with more than air...

Is MSNBC as biased as FOX? This would tell me everything about your ideology.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 3, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
i am a real commie i guess as i prefer PBS, mcneil-leherer type of news.

damn communists...
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
Dr. F, you're a real fool. You list Wiki and Media Matters as proof????

Are you really that brainwashed?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 3, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
My, my, my.

Where have all the good looking babushkas gone?

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 3, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
ok, ukraine is aok too....
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 4, 2010 - 12:42am PT
Anyone else see the nekid pictures of commie spy Anna Chapman?
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
Why do my posts always sop the right wing wacko gab fest

Because you're impossible to have a reasonable discussion with. In a thread regarding communism and Castro's apparent rejection of it, you want to discuss how Fox News lies and how Repubs suck...

Ukrainian chix kick ass though! (As a former communist state, that is on-topic)
bluering

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
New info on the Southern Poverty Law Center;

http://rkeefe57.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/splc-dreaming-of-a-white-christmas/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 24, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
Here's one for ya.

FBI files just released.

Several Communist Party members said otherwise. The files paraphrase one informants conversation with Zinn in 1948 as the future historian traveled from a protest outside the Truman White House to a Brooklyn rally for presidential candidate Henry Wallace. According to the informant, Zinn indicated that he is a member of the Communist Party and that he attends Party meetings five nights a week in Brooklyn. The files summarize how another informant believed that Zinn was selected as a delegate to the New York State Communist Party Convention. The Zinn that emerges from the files manned picket lines, religiously attended almost daily party meetings, and collected subscriptions for The Daily Worker. His work on behalf of radical causes was apparently so conspicuous that even a neighbor told the FBI that she believed Zinn was a Communist.

Zinn, of course, is most famous for writing A Peoples History of the United States, an unremittingly Marxist retelling of the nations past.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
Sounds like a bunch of hearsay, but hopefully it's true.

It wouldn't surprise me, Zinn tells it like it is, not the BS Wall Street wants you to hear.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
Oakland
Aug 24, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
Communists? You're worried about Communists?
Get a fuggin' grip, man.
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Aug 24, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
Because you're impossible to have a reasonable discussion with.


Pot


Kettle























Black
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
Communists? You're worried about Communists?
Get a fuggin' grip, man.

Not really worried so much as concerned. And they don't usually call themselves commies anymore, as they've recognized it don't play well in America. They use 'progressives' and 'socialists' and 'professional left'. They know most people won't buy their crap, so they create other nice sounding terms.

http://thepeoplescube.com/current-truth/the-professional-left-vs-the-amateur-right-t5883.html

Dude nails it...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 24, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
Hey, can I jump in to this game?

For what it is worth...


...nah, on second thought, it is worth nothing.

I use to participate in a lot of the political threads on the Taco Stand, sadly perhaps more than the climbing threads (I'll have to fix that), but it appears to me that it is the same people taking their same old stands on everything.

It appears to me, and I could be wrong, that those of the conservative/right wing brigade won't change their stance and the same goes for the other side - no matter what facts are presented to dispute or challenge some BS. Very few seem to be willing to open their minds, and very few seem willing to accept that perhaps the 'other' side has some valid comments.

What is this, tennis?
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Aug 24, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
I'll check out the article in its entirely later, Blue--but, for now...



Communism was feared because it was spreading around the world and threatening a capitalist lifestyle--it was a horrible scourge and could never work, which is why we feared it.

Wait, that doesn't make logical sense...


Did we we deeply think that it could take over our way of life, which was already different, self-sustaining and prosperous?


Where did the fear of Communism come from?


That 50 year-old ghost thinking dies with humans that lived in its throes...







edit: "Where did the fear of Communism come from?"

The insecurities in the practice and faith of our own sovereignty.


philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Aug 24, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
Power brokers always need a boogie man.





Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 24, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
Firstly, it was totally wrong to go into Iraq a second time just to satisfy Bushie Boy's attempt to salvage his father's reputation about Gulf War One not being as successful as some would wish.

There has been enough documentation that the nutter Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction that could threaten the West. It was the Shrub's war, which, according to him initially, the allies won early on (remember the aircraft speech). Ha, ha, maybe Georgie Boy missed his calling as a stand-up comedian.

It also meant taking our eye off of Afghanistan - a place that for example, Alexander the Great, the British Empire and the Soviets could not control. I still believe politically that even the Afghani conflict is not the right place to be, despite how despicable the Taliban and their Al-Qaeda allies are.

I have told my conservative brother and his wife (more like a sister to me than sister-in-law) the same, but I also added that I will support the troops - allied and US (as usual we donate more of our soldiers than other Nato countries) - who have been stationed there, including their son, my godson Benjamin, who is now in Afghanistan with his Marine unit.

I have no answers (so perhaps I should shut up), but Afghanistan is proving to be the quagmire that Alexander, the Brits and Ruskies have found it to be.

All in all, I believe that American policy in the past nine or so years has recruited more to the anti-American cause than anything else. Thanks George and Mr Cheney, and the rest of their misguided team. And Obama is really just carrying on the formers' policies. So much for change. It is politics as usual.

Yes, I consider myself a liberal (American liberal, not as leftist as some European liberals) but I am open to new ideas from the spectrum. What makes democracies great, such as ours, is that there is a mix of opinion that should, and usually does, balance things out.

On this thread, there has been some good comments from both sides of the spectrum, but there has been a lot of misinformation and disinformation as well - let's call a spade a spade, bullsh*t is being passed back and forth. It really is a matter of those on other sides of the spectrum preaching to their own kind. People have made their minds up it seems and will stick to their ideology, though not all of us Supertopians, there are some open-minded people on the Taco Stand. As for me, I DO TRY to see all views, I am not perfect, but I TRY to be objective and open minded.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
And they don't usually call themselves commies anymore, as they've recognized it don't play well in America.

You're right! Now they call themselves 'bankers', 'CEO's, 'Directors', and 'republicans' - and they all specialize in socializing private sector losses to the masses.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
Welcome back, Patrick.


Dr. ,that's BS about the Koch brothers. That all came from a hatchet-job from New Yorker magazine. The 2 brothers deny the allegation, is there any definitive proof of the NYer's claim?

And regarding the article's not mentioning commies (from my above link), that was kinda the point of the article. They never claim to be commies, they use feel-good terms now.


EDIT: Healy, those are neo-cons....and the tea-partiers are opposed to that kind of crap.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
Hey! Guess what, the Koch Brothers are commies! healyje is right!

The family has a complicated relationship with Communism
The family business, Koch Industries, was built up by their brothers' father Fred, an "arch-conservative" and member of of the staunchly anti-Communist (some might say "paranoid") John Birch Society. But, ironically enough, the firm's financial success was built on the back of work done in collaboration with the Soviet government under Stalin in the 1930s, according to Mayer. By the 1950s and 60s, Koch Sr. was raising the alarm about Communists infiltrating U.S. society and government. In addition to a vast fortune, says Mayer, the Koch boys also inherited their father's "distrust of the U.S. government."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
Gary they sound like capitalists to me.

http://exiledonline.com/a-peoples-history-of-koch-industries-how-stalin-funded-the-tea-party-movement/

And the above link is clearly biased against 'tea baggers'. But they illustrate that the Koch's were good entrepreneurs. And I still don't see how the Koch's are attached to the common tea-partier.

If anything they're neo-cons and free-trade types.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
I still don't see how the Koch's are attached to the common tea-partier.
They have party meetings in the ark on the backside of the moon - neocons, teabaggers, Rethuglicans, FatTrad, the Kochs, and all their fellow travellers. They worship and receive instruction from their space alien masters, who want to destroy the US so they can take over the world. Klimmer told me.

But then he also told me that Obama is one of the aliens, or something like that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
Thanks Anders, I always wondered.

Check the Afghani thread to see Canada rolling proud. I was impressed with their speed of reloading/refiring.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
Gary they sound like capitalists to me.

Yeah, that's what they want you to believe! Commies never call themselves commies anymore.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 24, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
brokenclock said
Not really worried so much as concerned. And they don't usually call themselves commies anymore, as they've recognized it don't play well in America. They use 'progressives' and 'socialists' and 'professional left'. They know most people won't buy their crap, so they create other nice sounding terms.


WHY CAN'T YOU GUYS HAVE A CALM REASONABLE DISCUSSION BASED ON MARGINALIZING MY POLITICAL OPPONENTS BY USING HYPERBOLIC AND MISUSED LABELS THAT I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND?!?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
priceless!

http://zombietime.com/crashing_the_crashers/

Only in SF;

http://www.zombietime.com/walking_tour_of_sf_protests/
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
Not even Eisenhower called himself a commie!!!111

But there is a traitor in our recent presidential history who was beyond socialism, beyond flirting with communism, a man who clearly was a redistributionist communist to his very core. That president had the top tax rate at 91%. He dealt with commies regularly, even helping the Russkies plan and coordinate military operations. As president, he hosted commie leaders who came to the U.S. to study how to infiltrate and overcome our freedoms. And he threw billions of our tax dollars into designing and building a road system the commies could use to move their troops and tanks through America when they finally invaded. That treasonous, craven, commie Quizling was, of course, Dwight David Eisenhower.

http://www.laprogressive.com/political-issues/reagan-the-socialist-nixon-the-commie-eisenhower-the-quisling/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
Nice try, Gary....You're actually going with the Reagan socialist crap? If he was such a socialist, commies like you would love him, right? Like Nixon and Eisenhower?

You people are priceless.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
You have to admit that Peak Communism is a real mountain, despite its name. Probably just about the same challenges for capitalists and commies.
Even if it was renamed Peak Ismail Samani by the Tajik government, after the 10th century Persian conqueror.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
You people are priceless.

So Fox News logic only works one way, eh, bluering?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
Gary, I have never claimed that FOX is a bastion of absolute truth, although they do as good of job as all others, if not better. They just cover stories other media outlets choose to ignore, which yes, puts them in a right-leaning camp.

Let's not pretend that NPR, MSNBC, NYTimes, and CNN don't have their biases. Where is an anti-communist to go?
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Aug 24, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
Down into the annals of history, sir Blue:-)
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Aug 24, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
Blue,

Fox News makes all of the MAINSTREAM MEDIA look left-leaning.
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 24, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
Knott to get sucked into this because it's a pretty silly thread (IMHO) but peeking in and seeing this:

"...I have never claimed that FOX is a bastion of absolute truth, although they do as good of job as all others, if not better."

Pretty much sums up everything about where Sir. Blue comes from.

Cheers,
DD

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Aug 24, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
Oh, and I didn't know FOX was #1...
That explains so much.

Thanks Skippy for the info.

Cheers,
DD
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Aug 24, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
The thing with NPR is that it's the only place I hear reasonable and intelligent explanations of republican/conservative agendas. When I watch FoxCNNwhatever-bc, which is rarely, all I see is a bunch of blowhards yelling at each other.

Kind of like another place I know......
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 24, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
brokenclock said
Nice try, Gary....You're actually going with the Reagan socialist crap? If he was such a socialist, commies like you would love him, right? Like Nixon and Eisenhower?


Actually you guys are making Nixon and Reagan look like pretty swell dudes. Reagan raised taxes when it was needed and his administration (lead by Koop) kicked the anti-smoking movement into high gear. He also envisioned a world without nuclear weapons and believed in engaging with ones enemies. Based on those points alone you'd probably call him a socialist. Hell, you'd probably hate him simply because his administration ACCOMPLISHED things. Nothing worse than a functioning government.

Goldwater would be kicked out of the RNC as a "RINO" based on his 1964 Presidential platform...you know...the one that turned the entire south Republican and laid the foundation for the modern conservative era.



skipt said
hey still don't understand how the world works and it is frickin' hilarious.


Everyone bow to the puppet master.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Aug 24, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
They still don't understand how the world works and it is frickin' hilarious.

Know it all toooooooo well.........Rancor Over Mosque Could Fuel Islamic Extremists

A self fulfilling prophecy by those who are way to "right".
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Aug 24, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
No, they hate us for our "freedoms"--not because we hate them...
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Aug 25, 2010 - 12:12am PT
The flames!

I'm a commie. (insert evil laugh here)Stick it in yer pipe & smoke it.
Use the flames.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Aug 25, 2010 - 12:26am PT
Yo Skipt, how does this issue fit with the Constitution, in your opinion?

Please give me the facts... from your viewpoint.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 25, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
This is about being deferential to people with murdered family members.

so the entire muslim religion is at fault? are they really to blame for 911? the whole damn passel of them?

meanwhile those catholics are busy raping our children, where is their deference?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
so the entire muslim religion is at fault?

It's OK if the Greek Orthodox Church builds there, even though terrorists of that faith have murdered Americans. It's just the Muslims that deserve the special treatment of blanket condemnation.

I'm still waiting for someone in favor of the ban to address this.

Please.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 25, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
Oh Gary, wait no longer.

Assuming members of the Greek Orthodox Church have murdered Americans, they do not do in in their roles as member of the Greek Orthodox Church--it is merely a coincidence.

When Catholics rape little boys and girls, they do not do in their roles as Catholics, but rather in express disregard of Catholic teachings, which forbid raping little boys and girls.

The 9/11 perpetrators, on the the other hand, committed their horrific crimes in the name of Islam.

Seems pretty simple to me, hope I've explained it well enough for you.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
blahblah wrote:
blah blah blah

No, you didn't explain it well. When Palestinian terrorists are Christians, it seems to never be mentioned. George Habash wasn't just a terrorist, he was founder of the PFLP and leading proponent of the use of terror in the PLO. The guy practically invented hijacking airplanes. It's never mentioned he was a Greek Orthodox Christian.

Why is that, Mr. blahblah?

If all of Islam is condemmned by the action of a few radical fundamentalists, why shouldn't the same logic apply to Greek Orthodoxism?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 25, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
Gary, I don't know if you are trying to be argumentative and are just not a very good arguer, or if you are just really, really stupid.

If you can't understand a distinction between:
(1) people who happen to be of a particular race/religion/whatever, who commit crimes for reasons unconnected with their race/religion/whatever, and (2) people who are of a particular race/religion/whatever, and who commit crimes AND SAY THEY DO IT BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THEIR RACE/RELIGION/WHATEVER,

then neither I nor anyone else can help you grow a brain.

Please turn of your computer, start wandering the streets and muttering your nonsense, and have a nice life.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
If you can't understand a distinction between:
(1) people who happen to be of a particular race/religion/whatever, who commit crimes for reasons unconnected with their race/religion/whatever, and (2) people who are of a particular race/religion/whatever, and who commit crimes AND SAY THEY DO IT BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IS REQUIRED BY THEIR RACE/RELIGION/WHATEVER,

Quit projecting your biases. Or just go ahead and admit you're prejudiced. It will be healthier for you mentally when you don't have to do so much rationalizing of your fears.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 25, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
Being raised a Catholic, then becoming an agnostic and now a bona fide atheist, I am proposing building an atheist temple on Ground Zero. We will call it the Tower of Babel and dedicate it to all Supertopians, of course, including myself. It will reach to the skies and be a conduit to GOD, or is that GAWD?

Did you know that GOD spelt backwards is DOG?

When I die I will go to that eternal kennel in the sky.

Ummmm, I think I have gone off thread, this thread is about commies, pinkos, leftists and their sordid lot. I am glad that our country is being led, or in charge, of capitalists, who will rape your savings and life blood, sort of like the Vatican, not to pick on the Catholic Church. When I was nine, I wanted to be the first American pope, thank the heavens when I was ten I wanted to be an astronaut. Always reaching for the heavens that is me, head in the clouds.

More importantly, my loved Jennie is being discharged from hospital tomorrow (August 26, Thursday) after 57 days in hospital, into my care. I have quit my job to be her primary caregiver, but my former editor said not to quit, he will make me redundant (and get back 60% of my redundancy cheque from the government). He is somewhat of a liberal (his dad certainly is - Phoenix Magazine) but also a businessman and entrepreneur, yet he is willing to give up some company money to me (why not, after almost 11 years of up and and down service to him - I have given him more grief that he has me, and some of the rows...).

He didn't have to do that, but the great thing is that he is no longer my boss, but my friend (employers and employees really can't be friends, so to speak). He made my best friend in Ireland here, Martin (advertising) redundant in March (the recession) but I bought tickets for the three of us to see Carlos Santana this September 29 in Dublin.

What does this have to do with Communism and this thread?

Hell, I don't know, I just know that I have a big job ahead of me, as Jennie's condition is called the Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome, and as primary care giver I have a job ahead of me tomorrow when she is put in to my care, especially with her short-term memory loss.

But if I can somehow tie this all in to this thread...


...hmmm, give me a second.

But I do believe in universal healthcare, does that make me a commie?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 26, 2010 - 02:00am PT
So Patrick, what has this all to do with the sacking of Constantinople in 1204, during the fourth crusade?

ps Hope all goes well with Jennie and your new 'job' - your recent low profile is explained.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 5, 2010 - 01:51am PT
Capitalism

this ain't no weenie roast
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Sep 5, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
Tower of "Rabble"?
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Sep 20, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
This sounds like communism to me!

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39265847
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 20, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 20, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
This sounds like communism to me!

Sounds like Capitalism to me, they're cutting out the middle man. You!
Oxymoron

Big Wall climber
total Disarray
Sep 20, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
Wait. Isn't THAT Barberella?
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Sep 20, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
Wasn't Jane's character an interstellar cop sent to arrest a Liberal mass
murderer while dressed in skimpy outfits?


A Joe Bite-me quote
http://hiphoprepublican.com/2006/08/top-racist-democrat-quotes_30.html
dirtbag

climber
Sep 21, 2010 - 12:03am PT
Let's cut through Cornshits Bs and lies.

The Repubs are now the home of the old racist dixiecrats, not the dems.

You start out in 1954 by saying, Nigger, nigger, nigger. By 1968 you cant say niggerthat hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states rights and all that stuff. Youre getting so abstract now [that] youre talking about cutting taxes, and all these things youre talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.

-Lee Atw#ter

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 11, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
The Banks Are Made of Marble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-o3CJytIPE
Rkjox

Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
Oct 25, 2010 - 10:36pm PT

Any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Oct 26, 2010 - 12:06am PT
dirtbag

climber
Oct 26, 2010 - 12:27am PT
The one on the right is gay.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 26, 2010 - 12:38am PT
Interestingly, Richard Hofstadter wrote in the Introduction to his book "Anti-intellectualism in American Life" (pp 40-41)

"And today, when Communism has been reduced to a negligible quantity in American domestic life, the cry for a revival of this scapegoat is regularly heard in the land, and investigators who are unable to turn up present Communist affiliations have resorted to stirring up the dead husks of fellow-traveling memories or to obscuring as completely as possible the differences between liberals and Communists. The truth is that the right-winger needs his Communists badly, and is pathetically reluctant to give them up."

this was written in 1962... which was 48 years ago...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 26, 2010 - 12:54am PT
hey Skip, you need your Communists?

that is a hoot...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 26, 2010 - 02:43am PT
Hopefully Skip and bluering have both imaginary friends and imaginary enemies. As long as they're not listening to those voices in their heads..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
Ever hear of this commie, Anders?

http://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs/60spubs/65repressivetolerance.htm

Obama is probably an understudy of him....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
I would be seriously impressed if you actually read through that link you posted, bluering
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
Hey, Blue....I'm an unrepentant Commie. Nyah, Nyah, Nyah. What you gonna do? I could be, YOU don't know....
Communism is legal in America. As are many things. As it should be.
Freedom of choice is better than Freedom FROM choice, Dude. You know this.
Let folk be what they will. They will anyway.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
Clever play, Ed, but I resent you trying to play me for an ignorant chump. Ever hear of the Meiner Badhof gang? The Frankfurt School for Socialist Research?

Commies. They all advocated a subversive cultural and political takover of society. It's all well documented. As always, they never overtly say what they mean, but just look at their pupils and disciples.

One of their give-aways is the whole, "communism is dead, it'll never work HERE" lines.

EDIT:
Communism is legal in America. As are many things. As it should be.
Freedom of choice is better than Freedom FROM choice, Dude. You know this.
Let folk be what they will. They will anyway.


I never said it was illegal or even a bad thought, really. Just really bad for this country. Do your f*#king homework, Skully!
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
In YOUR opinion, Blue.
My homework's done. YOU wanna check it?
Jeremy Handren

climber
NV
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
"Ever hear of the Meiner Badhof gang?"

I wonder if he means..

"Baader-Meinhof"

Commie eh? you might want to look into that a bit deeper.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
Let me ask you this, El Capitan, "would you rather buy biners made in Cuba, North Korea, Viet Nam, or the U.S.?

How about healthcare?

How about a car?

How about living in one of those countries????
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
Oh, Jeremy knows of whom I speak....
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
I've been to 3 out of the four. I kinda see your point, but in a squinty biased sorta way.
All folk are capable. Who holds the reins of "civilization" determines outcomes.
All else is just talk at the Deli table.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 29, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
I would be impressed because it is an interesting, if difficult, criticism, many arguments which you might find sympathy for... and a timely criticism too, given the play that Justice Steven's descent of the Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission case

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/citizens-united-v-federal-election-commission/

in particular, Steven's has argued recently that the matter of "fair play" is an important foundation upon which elections are conducted, but that the access to unlimited resources to one faction of the electorate, e.g. corporations, might tip the balance in their favor as other factions would not have access to the same resources.

This is essentially the same issues raised in the Marcuse criticism, which has to do with the corruption of the concept of tolerance when it is institutionalized. It is about privilege, whether that of the elite, or that of the majority... which also parallels many of Justice Stevens' thoughts as described in recent articles, for instance:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/us/28memo.html

Marcuse's criticism could even be thought as part of the intellectual foundations of the Newt Gingrich "Contract with America" movement, which rejected the historic role of the minority party in the House, essentially realizing that the movement could never succeed without rejecting the prevailing culture, a culture which institutionalized the status quo, that is, you'll never get along if you just go along. Newt turned that all on its head, and won the first Republican majority of the House in nearly 50 years...

So, what did you get out of Marcuse's article?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 12:11am PT
This is essentially the same issues raised in the Marcuse criticism, which has to do with the corruption of the concept of tolerance when it is institutionalized. It is about privilege, whether that of the elite, or that of the majority... which also parallels many of Justice Stevens' thoughts as described in recent articles, for instance:

Ed, this is the problem with do-gooder commies. They sell you a 'nice' an d 'tolerant' bill of goods to achieve their elitist control over the masses.

And yeah, the right wing is equally capable. It's a battle between fascism and communism.

Or to put it more simply, elitism. Or even more simply, politicians suck!

Since it's my opinion that people have been blinded by the 'cultural revolution', I fight the left. They break down the family, religion, and, hence, the glue that binds our traditional culture.

I will grant you that going too far the other way is equally unwanted and equally dangerous.

So, what did you get out of Marcuse's article?


Closet-communism in the guise of tolerance. The promotion of 'tolerance' and the suppression of anybody who disagreed with their definition of 'tolerance'.




Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:15am PT
ALL suits are suits, man. Red or Blue(no offense).
They want to have their way. Elitists? Look around.
Look again. Reconsider.
We're just the Proles to them, man. ALL OF THEM.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 12:22am PT
Skully, I appreciate that. But read the Constitution of this great country. I'm sure you realize our founders realized this dilemma.

They made probably the most liberating document ever, and in doing so, they restricted our gov't!

Sure, it would take a lot for commies or fascists to dominate us, but f*#king stop and pay attention to what's going on once in a while. And try to do it with an open lens, with no blinders on.

We are on a bad path. We need to vote smartly with this kind of crap in mind. Most Americans have blinders on....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:29am PT
so what's wrong with communism? I mean in the abstract sense. As opposed to capitalism, for instance...

..from your comments above, you seem to be intolerant to things that would change the status quo as you know and like it... even if that status quo denies individuals their liberty?
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:31am PT
And I will do as I wish. Even if it kills me.
Alas, I am but 1 monkey, in a vast jungle.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 12:40am PT
so what's wrong with communism? I mean in the abstract sense. As opposed to capitalism, for instance...

..from your comments above, you seem to be intolerant to things that would change the status quo as you know and like it... even if that status quo denies individuals their liberty?

Well, Ed, let's start with the staus quo of the most dominant country that ever existed in the past 100 years. Sure you can say the last 50, because the Nazis were pretty good, but we kicked their asses through what? Industrial dominance and innovation. Same with the Russkies.

My point? We live in a 'system' that promotes and even encourages innovation and growth. Communism stifles it.

And is the staus quo so bad? "progressives" (the new neo-comies) always make things seem as if they change them, they'll be better. Change is good, under the guise of 'progressing'.

People forget history though. "progress" needs to be defined and laid out bfeore you follow it. Where are we going? What is the goal?

That was the beauty of our founders. They laid it out beautifully. AND they put it in writing.
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:43am PT
Fear is the mindkiller.........
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:47am PT
Unfortunately, comparative advantage in the 21st century is going to revolve heavily around national infrastructures and one advantage China has in that competition is a fairly decisive [legacy] command + control capability from it's version of Communism. Being 50 competing states didn't matter much over the last century, but in this one it leads to a form of economic and political gridlock that poses enormous hurdles to necessary upgrades of military, industrial, transportation, energy, civil, and municipal infrastructures. It's not unlike GM with the overhead of a dozen brands trying to compete with Toyota with two.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 12:48am PT
Have anything intelligent to add, Crowley??? Or maybe we should just call each other dipshits....


EDIT: How about some English, healy! WTF did you say, China owns us?
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:51am PT
Maybe you. I like Western stuff. Except for Chinese food.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 12:51am PT
Unfortunately, comparative advantage in the 21st century is going to revolve heavily around national infrastructures and one advantage China has in that competition is a fairly decisive [legacy] command + control capability from it's version of Communism.

So we need to bring manufacturing BACK to the U.S.???
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 12:56am PT
Three come to mind easily.

Balancing the budget.

Fixing the health care crisis in America.

Ending the wars.

Interesting. And I agree, mostly. How do you propose to do this? Is healthcare really a "crisis" in this country?

Your other 2 points have merit though.



EDIT: Wars?

I would leave Iraq afetr establishing a secured airbase.
Go medevil on the Taliban for about 6 months. Drop the current ROE, and let troops kill people they deem dangerous.

Spending? Stop it! Pretty f*#king easy. Especially as we gear up for more CO2 regulation from the FED that will kill jobs.

Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Dec 30, 2010 - 01:01am PT
If I get hurt or sick, I'm done.
How's that for a crisis?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 30, 2010 - 01:03am PT
Healthcare is another systemic 'infrastructure' issue - it is crushingly anti-competitive to have U.S. corporations responsible for baseline healthcare of workers. From a comparative advantage perspective it's as insane as dicing up the base healthcare system into a thousands of profit centers each with it's own administrative and technological overhead. Stupid in a word and you won't get jobs back into the U.S. without universal, single-payer healthcare. Period.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2010 - 01:29am PT
The military cost Americans a trillion dollars per year Bleuy...

More, when you include special War funding.

This is where the cuts should be made.


If you want to de-fund the military, we'd have to 'come home' and play defense. I don't mind that, but with that comes other stuff....that I'm not really against. But try to consider what you're really saying. I trust you do.

EDIT:

Healthcare is another systemic 'infrastructure' issue - it is crushingly anti-competitive to have U.S. corporations responsible for baseline healthcare of workers.

And the cure is for gov't to take over?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 30, 2010 - 02:44am PT
Balancing the budget.

Fixing the health care crisis in America.

Ending the wars.




Clearly a commie agenda - ;-)
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 30, 2010 - 02:51am PT
"From each according to his means,
to each according to his needs"

Isn't that pretty much what Jesus said on the mount?

in one book it's dissed
but if in another it's to die for
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 30, 2010 - 03:00am PT
Who would be willing to chip in to pay for bluering to attend a good night school or weekend survey course in US history, at a good college? And maybe, for perspective, another survey course on world history?

The economics course may be a stretch, though.
jstan

climber
Dec 30, 2010 - 03:07am PT
There he goes. Being colorful is not as easy as Crowley makes it look. That's a good one.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 30, 2010 - 03:30am PT
You go to any hospital or doctor you want - premiums and claims go through a single-payer, quasi-governmental clearinghouse. Matching systems similar to to trading systems clears the transactions. It's not rocket science - just a matter of scale. They could easily outsource it to a consortium of the usual players - google, microsoft, oracle, or hp. A google/ VA medical records standard could easily be put together and mandated to go with it.

Again, it ain't rocket science and you couldn't possibly f*#k it up any worse than our current parasitic, for-profit insurers have.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
Commies are fun:

Stewart Johnson

climber
yo mama
Dec 30, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
you might want to thank the commies for saving your ass from hitler.
get a mother fukin haircut!
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Dec 30, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
Viva La Raza Bluey! Have a Happy New Year!
Peace
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 1, 2011 - 12:40am PT
...is the American way of life worth bothering about?
find out here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w86QhV7whjs

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2011 - 01:03am PT
...is the American way of life worth bothering about?

I guess it's all perpective, right?

Yeah, Ron, Feliz Ano Neuevo...but that La Raza crap? You can take it back to Mexico! Same thing with Mecha and Aztlan.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 1, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
From slashdot...

Chinese Intellectual Property Acquisition Tactics Exposed

hackingbear writes "In an interview published in Sina.com.cn, Chinese rail engineers gave a detailed account of the history, motivation, and technologies behind the Chinese high-speed rail system. More interestingly, they blatantly revealed the strategies and tactics used in acquiring high-speed rail tech from foreign companies (Google translation of Chinese original). At the beginning, China developed its own high-speed rail system known as the Chinese Star, which achieved a test speed of 320km/h; but the system was not considered reliable or stable enough for operation. So China decided to import the technologies. The leaders instructed, 'The goal of the project is to boost our economy, not theirs.' A key strategy employed is divide-and-conquer: by dividing up the technologies of the system and importing multiple different technologies across different companies, it ensures no single country or company has total control. 'What we do is to exchange market for technologies. The negotiation was led by the Ministry of Railway [against industry alliances of the exporting countries]. This uniform executive power gave China huge advantage in negotiations,' said Wu Junrong, 'If we don't give in, they have no choice. They all want a piece of our huge high speed rail project.' For example, [Chinese locomotive train] CRH2 is based on Japanese tech, CRH3 on German tech, and CRH5 on French tech, all retrofit for Chinese rail standards. Another strategy is buy-to-build. The first three trains were imported as a whole; the second three were assembled with imported parts; subsequent trains contain more and more Chinese made parts."
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 1, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
Chinese Intellectual Property Acquisition Tactics Exposed

And this is somehow different from any other country's method of progress?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 2, 2011 - 03:46am PT
Yes, see my post a couple back about how our gridlocked political structure and 50 competing states will likely be a significant hindrance in this century when competitiveness will depend on various infrastructure component upgrades - i.e. we lack effective command & control of our nation's resources. It is most evident in jockeying over high-speed rail and powergrid upgrades where little ever gets done.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:08am PT



Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 2, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
Yes, see my post a couple back about how our gridlocked political structure and 50 competing states will likely be a significant hindrance in this century

Quite agree with that. And wasn't disagreeing at all with the "intellectual property acquisition tactics" idea. Just pointing out that hijacking intellectual property is a time-honored tradition, engaged in by every society in history.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
Healyje, oh the irony. You're right of course, but it gets worse.

We spent all that money on Iraq, and guess who got the best oil contracts??? I think you know.

"No war for oil"....meh....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
What a gyp.


werd....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
Boeing rocks on Airbus. Hands down. Sure the Airbus is cheaper sometimes...but it's cheaper.

EDIT:

As far as trains go WTG to travel? Americans will never embrace this like Euros and China. It's because we like our independance and driving ourselves. We like the diversity and dynamics of a road trip. Most of us don't like point A--->point B. We like to stop, get off, have a beer, spend the night.

It'll never catch on here. Not anytime soon....
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 2, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
Boeing rocks on Airbus. Hands down. Sure the Airbus is cheaper sometimes...but it's cheaper.

And you say this because...??? Vast experience in the aviation industry? Aircraft finance?

Just curious, because anyone who is actually in the industry knows that what you said simply isn't true. And hasn't been for some time.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
Crash history lately....
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 2, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
Might as well dicuss the odds at craps. Meaningless non-statistic.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
How long has Boeing been building robust engines and aircraft???

Ever hear of the B-17?
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 2, 2011 - 04:57pm PT
Boeing actually builds very FEW engines. I used to haul GE engines to Boeing a LOT. Try again.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:00pm PT
Crash history lately....

That's your answer? C'mon, you can do better than that. You made a very definite statement that implies some real knowledge.

I'm guessing that you don't have that knowledge -- am I right? Or do you actually work in the aviation/aerospace industry in a position that has given you the knowledge base to back up what you said?

Edit: Whoa, look what turned up while I was writing the above:
How long has Boeing been building robust engines and aircraft???

Boeing doesn't build engines at all. Hasn't in recent history.

Have you ever thought about qualifying your unsupported opinions with something like "Well, I don't know about this myself, but I've heard that..."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 05:01pm PT
Whatever, skullman, Boeing intergrates the best airplanes this side of Lockheed-Martin.

There wasn't a GE logo on B-17's in WW II. It was Boeing. Just watched it on the History Channel, so I'm totally 'informed' now.....

EDIT:

No Ghost, I'm going on recent Airbus engine recalls from the news. I'm in electronics not avionics. But I DO understand how sh#t can hit the fan when you compromise quality or workmanship.

You get what you pay for...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
Ever hear of the Boeing Bailout?


Heard of it? Yes. Care to elaboarate your point?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
Centrally controlled economies make as much sense as genetically engineered monoculture crops.


It's all fun and games till the unexpected.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
Trains were a huge part of the US culture and economy from the 1840s to the 1950s, and are still a huge part of the economy. They're by far the cheapest way to move things on land, and passenger trains are still heavily used in the more densely-populated areas. Subsidized, perhaps - as are roads, airplane manufacturers, and airlines.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
Trains were a huge part of the US culture and economy from the 1840s to the 1950s, and are still a huge part of the economy.


Re-read my post above. Once the car (and truck) showed up, pfffft!!!!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
Steve, Airbus doesn't build engines either. The engine failures that you're talking about are the A and B series Trent 900s from good old Rolls Royce. Has absolutely nothing to do with the aircraft they're hanging from.

Now c'mon. Stop trying to make it sound like you know anything about this. There are probably subjects about which you do have some respectable knowledge. Be forceful about them, but lay off the subjects where your "knowledge" is just wishful thinking -- or something you've picked up from watching a tv program. (Like the engines on the B-17. The ones I think were made by Curtiss-Wright.)
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
I've worked for Lockheed-Martin, too. The Boeing guys had better jokes, overall. I'd be leery of someone judging a company's competency based on 60 or 70 year old data. Sketch city. No offense, man, you just shouldn't make blanket statements, without a good blanket.
A lot of that goes on here, I notice.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:14pm PT
Cars and trucks appeared before World War I, and were quite common in the 1920s and 1930s. Trains weren't superseded for long distance travel until the post-war economic boom, development of the interstate highway system, and the rise of economical and reliable turbo-prop and then jet planes.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
Now c'mon. Stop trying to make it sound like you know anything about this. There are probably subjects about which you do have some respectable knowledge. Be forceful about them, but lay off the subjects where your "knowledge" is just wishful thinking -- or something you've picked up from watching a tv program. (Like the engines on the B-17. The ones I think were made by Curtiss-Wright.)

Fair enough, Ghost, and you're right. But I'd still rather fly in a Boeing plane than an Airbus. Ya know?

Better quality control, better track record.
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
A LOT of freight moves by train. A LOT. No, more than that, even. A staggering amount.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
China Breaks Airbus-Boeing Monopoly
Nov. 17, 2010

Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China (Comac) has secured its first 100 C919 passenger-aircraft orders, breaking the near monopoly enjoyed by Airbus S.A.S. and The Boeing Co. (BA).

General Electric Cos (GE) leasing arm and Chinas three largest domestic airlines by fleet size were amongst the first customers for the 168-seater aircraft.

http://wallstreetpit.com/50684-china-breaks-airbus-boeing-monopoly

Note that GE, a NY-based corporation of no small significance, and it's Directors, have clearly decided lending a hand is a great idea.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
China Breaks Airbus-Boeing Monopoly

They haven't broken it yet. Bombardier is actually closer, but they too have a ways to go. And of course the Russians, who have been building large commercial jets for some time, will eventually build something that breaks out of their home market.

The currrent Boeing/Airbus duopoly control of the large jet market isn't quite done, but it is in its final days.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Jan 2, 2011 - 05:43pm PT
this is b.s. Prop 23 failed in California. It did not fail because of some lily livered, pansy assed, knee jerk liberal environmentalist. It failed because some billionaire investors in the bay area realized that if it passed it would kill development.

These investors rallied others within the state and it was their money that was used to shoot down Prop 23.

They shot Prop 23 down because they knew that having environmental laws on the books would push technology and create jobs.

Next time, do your homework.

> Spending? Stop it! Pretty f*#king easy. Especially as we gear up for more CO2 regulation from the FED that will kill jobs.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
> Spending? Stop it! Pretty f*#king easy. Especially as we gear up for more CO2 regulation from the FED that will kill jobs.


Welcome to the arguement, my friend.....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 2, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
there was an interesting article in the NYTimes, sometime in the last couple of weeks, about the cost effectiveness of household scale solar energy for remote African villages...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/25/science/earth/25fossil.html

these villagers are able to buy enough to power lights in their homes so their kids can study at night, to recharge the electronic equipment (mostly cell phones). Remember one of the biggest advances in the United States about 70 years ago was the electrification of rural areas, Woody Guthrie sang about it. It was a major advance in the standard of living in the States...

...now in Africa there is an interesting economic development going on... major electrification projects require large sources of capital, and therefore some business plan for recouping the investments. These sorts of major power projects do not have any incentive to put in the electrical grid infrastructure, it just isn't worth it... so these remote villages remain powerless... except they are able to get small loans to buy solar power, and the spend that loan on Chinese manufactured solar panels.

While it may be difficult for solar to compete in a place where the power grid infrastructure has already been put in place, such as the US, it is cost effective in locals where such infrastructure investments might not be justifiable on the basis of a capitalistic calculation.

Of course, such calculations were done during the US development period and it was decided that the private sector wasn't all that keen on the idea, so the US government did it, because it was good for the people of the US... not necessarily good for immediate return to commerce.

So it seems that the US industrial interests are loosing out on this market, to the Chinese. It is a good market in other ways, probably not a lot of dollars to be made, but a hell of a lot of good will, and a way to provide energy based on a local resource, the sun... less expensively and quicker than waiting for the power lines to be put in, the power plan to be built, and the power bill to be mailed.

The idea of "American Innovation" was not that it hewed to a particular dogma, but that it saw areas of mutual interest to potential users of a technology with the innovators of that technology. And the US government could be an important partner in that equation as the only institution with the role of looking out for everyone, balanced by their need, to provide resources to improve the general welfare of the citizens.

It seems that our current dogma is to try to hold onto the past as strongly as possible and resist the currents of change. We will quickly become irrelevant in most things and be feared because of our horrible capabilities... the world's bully.

I read that article and took heart:
As small-scale renewable energy becomes cheaper, more reliable and more efficient, it is providing the first drops of modern power to people who live far from slow-growing electricity grids and fuel pipelines in developing countries. Although dwarfed by the big renewable energy projects that many industrialized countries are embracing to rein in greenhouse gas emissions, these tiny systems are playing an epic, transformative role.

Since Ms. Ruto hooked up the system, her teenagers grades have improved because they have light for studying. The toddlers no longer risk burns from the smoky kerosene lamp. And each month, she saves $15 in kerosene and battery costs and the $20 she used to spend on travel.

In fact, neighbors now pay her 20 cents to charge their phones, although that business may soon evaporate: 63 families in Kiptusuri have recently installed their own solar power systems.


safer living environment, better learning environment, and learning to be an entrepreneur, sounds like the American way, enabled by the Chinese, while we argue over how to keep our economy the way it was in the 50's, 60's and 70's...

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
there was an interesting article in the NYTimes, sometime in the last couple of weeks, about the cost effectiveness of household scale solar energy for remote African villages...


What does that have to do with communists?? It's not such a bad idea, really.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
Actually, Ed's idea is quite communistic, but yet, very cool!

Solar energy isn't really commie, just smart!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 2, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
What does that have to do with communists?? It's not such a bad idea, really.
well I think that's my point, who cares about communists or capitalist when the idea is a good one...
...it used to be we worked hard to have those good ideas, and at our best, we didn't worry about ideology so much.

But also, the last time I looked, the Chinese were an emerging world power, and still a communist regime... people are buying Chinese goods because we in the US seem to be self-obsessed with this ideology thing... and shooting ourselves in the feet, really sad...

There is no doubt that the US government can be a force of good both at home and in the world. The fact that the world recovered from WW II is by a large portion due to that beneficence. The fact that the US population is in such a good place is due, in large part, to the policies of its government.

There have always been disagreements over why this is so, the record seems to speak largely for itself. Every time you drive into the Valley you do it through tunnels dug during the 30's, fancy that, public works projects which you benefit from on your way to enjoy an avocation made possible by the decades of policies of the US government...
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Jan 3, 2011 - 01:09am PT
How come no one ever bitches about the Fascists?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
Oh, just what South America needed, another Marxist leader...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-brazil-president-20110102,0,814170.story
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 3, 2011 - 12:33pm PT
Well, Dilma, like Lula, may have Marxist roots but she has been thoroughly
co-opted by a combination of common sense and intelligence. She will continue
Lula's policies almost verbatim and if you think those are Marxist then you
haven't taken a very close look at Brasil's economy. Granted, there is too
much centralization and a number of other problems that one could label as
'socialist' but probably not much different than most of the EU.

I detailed some of those here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1343833&msg=1344332#msg1344332



This week's "The Economist":

Raining on her parade, but still smiling

Jan 1st 2011, 21:26 by H.J. | SO PAULO

THE rain pelted down on Brasilia on the afternoon of January 1st as Dilma Rousseffs cavalcade drove along the Esplanade of the Ministries on her way to the National Congress. But the spirits of Brazils first female president seemed undampened, as she smiled broadly and waved through the window of the Rolls Royce that replaced the planned open-topped car at the sea of umbrellas on either side. Once in Congress, she paid tribute to her predecessor and mentor, Luis Incio Lula da Silva, in particular for the progress made during his eight years in power in reducing extreme poverty. Social mobility was impressive during Lulas two mandates, she told members of Congress and other luminaries. But poverty still exists, disfiguring our country and stopping us from claiming to be a fully developed nation.

To change that, she said, would require continued economic growth, job creation, price stability and a better return on public spending. The task of simplifying Brazils byzantine tax code she described as urgent. She promised reforms that would strengthen the countrys young democracy, including increased transparency. And she thanked Brazilians for electing their first woman president. I am not here to praise my own life, she avowed, but to glorify the lives of all Brazilian women. My supreme promise is to honour women, protect the weakest and to govern for all.

Ms Rousseff is stepping into the presidency at an extraordinary moment, both politically and economically. Lulas name appeared on the ballot paper in every presidential election since 1989 until in 2010, barred by the constitution from seeking a third term, he anointed Ms Rousseff as his preferred successor. In his own campaigns he spoke almost exclusively of povertyand to the poor. Now, Brazils economy is booming and the growth of the middle class, which included the majority of Brazilians for the first time in 2009, is changing every facet of life. Little wonder that on the election trail both Lula and his protge mentioned the middle classes at least as often as the poor, offering a potent policy combination of income transfers to the poorest and praise and support for the upwardly mobile.

But Ms Rousseff must move quickly to tackle the problems of growth like high and rising inflation, an overvalued currency and a big increase in consumer credit. Then there are the task Lula left undone. These include a list of reforms that defeated even as consummate a politician as Ms Rousseff's predecessor. Brazils labour code remains an anachronism; its payroll taxes are far too high; its bureaucrats are obstructionist and unsackable; and political corruption is still rife. It is a daunting to-do list, but since being elected on October 31st all the signs have been that Ms Rousseff knows what she needs to do, and has the guts to do it.

ps
If you get a qualified pat-on-the-back from "The Economist" chances are
pretty good you're no Marxist.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Time will tell I guess, Dingus. Didn't go so well for Venezuela.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2011 - 12:48pm PT
Now you have a boogeywoman too!

Ho, man, you don't know the half of it....don't get me started.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 3, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
If you want a little more detailed look at Dilma the Marxist then here ya go:
http://www.economist.com/node/17797502?story_id=17797502

"she wants to cut net government debt, now 42%, to 30% of GDP over her term. She is resisting pressure from her Workers Party and its allies for a big rise in the minimum wage"

She sounds more like a Republican than a Democrat, let alone a Marxist!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
She does, Reilly. Maybe she's shaken her Marxist past? Kinda like Cuba?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
That's an old pic, Locker....that was my 'creative and sensitive' phase.

Didn't last long. I was a graceful f*#ker though...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 5, 2011 - 06:36am PT
China Rolls Out Its First Stealth Aircraft

BEIJING Chinas first radar-evading stealth fighter staged a runway test at an airbase in central China on Wednesday and could make its first flight as early as Thursday afternoon, the Hong Kong editor of a Canadian military journal said.

But the nations state-run media, which called news of the tests rumors in Wednesdays newspapers, sought to play down reports about the aircrafts capabilities. And comments about the new jets test regimen abruptly disappeared from blogs run by Chinese military enthusiasts.

The American magazine Aviation Week & Space Technology first reported on tests of the new plane, designated the J-20, in an article released on Monday. Military analysts say that photographs of the new jet on the tarmac at an airfield near Chengdu, have been appearing on blogs since mid-December.

Andrei Chang, the editor of Kanwa Defense Weekly in Hong Kong, said in a telephone interview on Wednesday that he had been authoritatively told that the jet will make its first test flight on Thursday, weather permitting.

He said Chinese officials appeared to have deliberately allowed word of the tests to become public, even to the point of bringing the jet to a Chengdu airfield, Factory 132 of the citys aircraft design institute, that is commonly watched by military hobbyists, in a bid to display the nations growing military sophistication.

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/06/world/asia/06china.html
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 5, 2011 - 10:33am PT
And we paid for it!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jan 10, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
jstan

climber
Jan 10, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
Probably more significant is Jintao's willingness to meet with Gates following talks by the two defense secretaries.

There may be military relevance to China's stealth capability. I am no judge. That a prototype was built sooner than our intelligence estimates indicated, is significant. But note. Any test data we have on actual performance specifications for this platform are limited and probably obtained from satellite. (That anyone would court this much public exposure for a plane that has yet to fly, is not credible.)

Most significant of all is the fact stealth has pushed China's progress in rocket development off the front page.

I think if you once realize China loses were it to destroy its biggest customer and possibly the whole planet, you have to see all of this as choreography. Probably choreography managed by the Chinese military establishment, planing to use our new Congress as a foil.

I finger the military because in any ensuing arms race between the two nations the dollar will suffer. The military is not that concerned with decline in value of China's holdings denominated in dollars. Indeed, such would be considered a victory ten times larger than what could be gained in any military engagement.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 10, 2011 - 06:14pm PT
The latest thing in stealth aircraft

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 10, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
Its what our AF will look like when China calls in the debt.
jstan

climber
Jan 10, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
We are now ready to be Reaganized.
Captain...or Skully

climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
Jan 10, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
As long as the Giant Bugs don't attack. I hate when that happens.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 10, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
"Communism is like one big phone company."

Lenny Bruce

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2011 - 12:56am PT
We're being co-opted to China. Wake up!

Watch the press conferences between the Prez and the One. Spooky....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2011 - 10:19am PT
Where was your big screen TV made bluey? US of A? Have you even bothered to check?

Japan, I think...

But I receive your point and concur. There is a website however to tackle this issue of unfair trade. See here;

americanjobcreators.com

I sent a letter. Will you?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2011 - 10:45am PT
Ah, jeez....

http://www.studentfreepress.net/archives/7835
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 1, 2011 - 10:56am PT
Watch out, bluey! They're indoctrinating the kids!!!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
Watch out, bluey! They're indoctrinating the kids!!!

Gary, you don't know how right you are..

Teachers discuss how to promote Marxism in the classroom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDeXhmTz_0M&feature=player_embedded#at=122

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
Commies, anarchists, and socialists gather!!!!

http://zombietime.com/day_of_fail/
kennyt

climber
Sep 26, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
Bluering get a life, Loser
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
Bluering get a life, Loser


I might say the same about the 'winners' in the protests....
kennyt

climber
Sep 26, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
The Revolutionary Communist Party joins OWS.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/10/the_revolutionary_communist_partys_little_yellow_book.html

I'm shocked...shocked!!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 18, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
It's sad that anyone allows himself to fear largely imaginary enemies, and is so easily manipulated as a result.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
It's sad that anyone allows himself to fear largely imaginary enemies, and is so easily manipulated as a result.


Fear is the wrong word, Johnson. I do not have fear of communists in America. I just raise awareness that these dipshits are out there. They lure young indeolistic youths and make them their 'useful idiots'.

To say it's just some fearful, unwarranted, paranoia is just not true. Also troubling is what they propose in their new 'Constitution'. Right out of Mao's teachings.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 18, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
I thought a "Johnson" was, well, a ... Oh, never mind.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
Click back and read the OP here, then read the OP to his most recent outburst. Not sure it's a theme or a symptom.

Where do you have conflict with my arguements, Ricky?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 31, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
Communism, everyone wins!
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 31, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
^

!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Mao and Pol Pot would be proud!

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Schools-battle-for-hearts-minds-30174656.html

The Nation, as usual, has the story flipped on it's head. The "seperatists" are Islamic-communists. The "nationalism" being taught in schools is just history.

Islamo-communists (that's a good mix, huh?) just trying to start their own break-away state.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 7, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
Hey, Bluey, this vid is made for you - metal and commies! As a lifelong
student of the Soviet Union and Rooskies in general this is a pretty damn
cool snapshot of the passion that brought the ol' Union down. Kirk and Lars
seem pretty genuine in their concern and interest when they meet with some
folks before the concert. And get a load of the soldiers going nuts in the
crowd and the choppers flying about 50' over the crowd. Nukking Futs!
BTW, the August Coup began two days after this concert!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pHoUScN5xM&feature=related


Maybe we can send Metallica to Damascus and Cairo?
Gary

climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
Feb 7, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
Who needs Metallic when we have Ernst Busch?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
Feb 7, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Islamo-communists

You have no concept of historical manipulation of gov't, do you? Fascist came from nothing other than dictatorship and totalitarian rule. Italians created fascism. And yes, it started with the right wing, but it devolved into a socialistic/fascistic state.

Nazi Germany started as a unionized/Socialistic state and became - guess what? They were promised jobs, a new economy, and a new Fatherland. What became was Nazis and the Nazi Party.

Stalin - even worse. That is, after Leninism that put the State above religion and family.

So maybe we should jettison our current Declaration and Constitution for something newer and more 'mainstream'.

Commies...they just want to shread the Constitution a page at a time for 'human rights' and more 'liberty'.

Yeah, right....
Gary

climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
Feb 8, 2012 - 12:00am PT
Nazi Germany started as a unionized/Socialistic state and became - guess what?

It's a real shame you know nothing of history, bluering. Because history is actually more interesting than this claptrap you come up with.

Do you realize that the Nazis went after the unions, the socialists and the communists first? or do you just ignore any fact that doesn't jive with your fantasy ideas?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
May 1, 2012 - 08:51am PT
Bluey! Happy May Day, Fellow Worker!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
May 1, 2012 - 08:57am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 1, 2012 - 09:02am PT
Communists have flaws but they are better than country club capitalists.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
May 1, 2012 - 09:03am PT
I lived in Lincoln NE for about four years when I was young. While there we celebrated May Day in school each year. Baskets, May Poles, a great celebration. Happy May Day all!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 1, 2012 - 10:18am PT
While there we celebrated May Day in school each year.

And guess where May Day is -- or was -- really big: That's right, in the Soviet Union. You are nothing more than an evil communist, Callie. And probably an islamo-fascist-homo who hates Bluering for his freedom.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Isn't it funny how yesterday's Russian Commies are today's Russian Oligarchs?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
May 1, 2012 - 10:39am PT
And guess where May Day is -- or was -- really big: That's right, in the Soviet Union. You are nothing more than an evil communist, Callie. And probably an islamo-fascist-homo who hates Bluering for his freedom.

I continue to be confused as I thought I hated 'those' people because of their trucks. You know, jealousy over success and all.

It really was such a fun day - school sanctioned. Who knew Lincoln NE was the hotbed of all that is evil.

Signed,

Communistgirl, er crimpergirl. :)
jstan

climber
May 1, 2012 - 11:02am PT
In 150 billion years when all galaxies are receding from us at light speed we will not be able to see them at all and will think our galaxy exists alone in a static universe.

"We will be ignorant, and lonely, but dominant.

Something Americans are used to"-Lawrence Krauss

After WWII I felt certain no people would ever again be so blinded by hate they would be willing to go through that again.

But here we are.

The Neanderthal was a very successful specie that survived for a half million years, as I understand it. We, homo sapiens, came about because of a climatic challenge that existed some 100,000 years ago. While it gave us much increased reasoning power, for some reason it also implanted in us a need for hatred sufficient to entirely nullify that ability to reason.

Now that we have nuclear weapons, we have everything needed to end our specie, for good.

I do hope nature gets it right - next time.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2012 - 11:12am PT
jstan, I don't hate commies, I find them quaint. What with the state of things
in Europe they are enjoying a sort of mini-Renaissance amongst the illiterate
masses.

As I've said before the ol' Soviet Union was a really safe place to visit,
as long as you didn't mind your hotel room being searched. Not that they
weren't good at it - I didn't find out how good they were until I got to
Finland and discovered what they'd taken. Grrrr....
Barcus

Social climber
San Luis Obispo, Ca.
May 1, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Stevie!
Watch out man, your surrounded by Siliconunists!
And don't forget the Obamunists!!
Yer screwed bro.


Marcus
Evil too!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
And probably an islamo-fascist-homo who hates Bluering for his freedom.

Ghost for the win.


Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 1, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Commies don't understand.

They are just a byproduct of azzhole capitalists.


Good capitalists realize that with great power and wealth comes great responsibility. By my observation, many do realize this.


Bad capitalists screw up the whole world by feeding it to commies who tend to make sure there is justice for none.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 1, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
Happy May Day (International Workers' Day), comrades!! Especially comrade bluering. Noting that today is also a festival in the Roman Catholic church.
Urizen

Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
May 1, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
And a very merry Beltane, too, all you anti-Christian communists!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 1, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
Jesus Christ was the original commie, asking his followers to give everything to be used in common by the community.

But Marx took the God and Love out of it and made it all philosophical

all ideology winds up reflecting the strengths and weakness of the people involved more than it does the actual theory

Peace

karl
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
May 2, 2012 - 12:22am PT
For Comrade Bluering, on International Worker's Day!

"There are only two roads, victory for the working class, freedom, or victory for the fascists which means tyranny. Both combatants know what's in store for the loser."
Buenaventura Durruti
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Barcus

Social climber
San Luis Obispo, Ca.
May 2, 2012 - 01:12am PT
Stevie!
Watch out man, your surrounded by Siliconunists!
And don't forget the Obamunists!!
Yer screwed bro.


Marcus
Evil too!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
May 2, 2012 - 02:48am PT
Islamo-communists

Google it, it doesn't exist

But Google connection between zionism and communism and you get 1.8 million links comrade.
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=communism+and+zionism&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
May 2, 2012 - 03:04am PT
hey bluey,

can you get me a job at mesa boogie?

i'll send you a free dual rectumfrier bass amp if you do,
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Jul 18, 2012 - 11:46pm PT
Bluey! Watch out! It's the Anarchists, bro!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
You know it's bad when former Soviet mouthpiece, Pravda, is calling you out for being too communist;
http://english.pravda.ru/history/29-11-2010/115965-liberalism-0/

To say this doesn't exist is just being naive, and a 'useful idiot'. In fact, part of their modus operandi is to label people as 'reactionary' when they are called out.

f*#king pinkos...

EDIT:
Bluey! Watch out! It's the Anarchists, bro!
They are manageable fools.

Sprock, let me check.
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 26, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
China is a communist country. Without the communist Chinese production, the global market would collapse.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 27, 2012 - 12:27am PT
China is a communist country

HaHaHaHa! That's funny!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 27, 2012 - 07:42am PT
This thread is a joke. Bluering I hope you can manage to crawl out from under your bed now and then and actually enjoy life, instead of freaking out about commies supposedly in charge.

You have proven adept at bottom feeding for sources, though. From paragraph 1 of the "Pravda" column (LOL, fooking "Pravda"!!! LOLOLOL):
Are liberals mentally ill, spiritually depraved or just ignorant good-hearted people trying to improve society?


He omits the part about being liberals being pedophiles and baby eaters.

Oh yeah...





























































































Boo, madrefookers!

philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 27, 2012 - 07:48am PT
Puckin' Finkos!
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:15am PT
China is a communist country

HaHaHaHa! That's funny!

What do you mean by 'funny'?
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:20am PT
He means that they're only nominally Communist, these days.

They'll kill us all to make a profit.
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:24am PT
Do you mean (real) communists wouldn't?
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Nov 27, 2012 - 08:26am PT
They'll kill us all to make a profit.

Hey! They're just like Wall Street.

Now that bluey is turning to Pravda for his news, does that make him a Fellow Traveller?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:27am PT
Skully, well put, as always. Economists use the term 'state capitalism'.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 27, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
How many protesters and anarchists do you think adhere to this ethos?

I think the majority of protesters think they have a clearly defined set
of beliefs and values. Their problem is that what is clear in their minds
would befuddle someone who is capable of logical and rational thought. As
for the anarchists and nihilists, well, let's just charitably say that they're
all about 'the journey'.

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Nov 27, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
That's a great scene
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 27, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
How many protesters and anarchists do you think adhere to this ethos?

I think it's more of a matter that there's a lot of people, from the protestors to the police, who have some inner rage built up. You know, that thing that makes people lose in in traffic or when somebody feeds a squirrel.

Peace

Karl
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 27, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 27, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
As opposed to today's entitled republican social corporatists who believe they are due great wealth for no other reason than they are due.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
As opposed to today's entitled republican social corporatists who believe they are due great wealth for no other reason than they are due.

Are Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Home Depot, or Walmart not entitled to reap profits from their gains? Who should reap the gains? The somewhat lazier, more uneducated "worker"?

Even that asshat Buffet benefits from tax loop-holes in Bekshire Hathaway and his previous holdings, but now he's grown benevolent somehow, after he made his billions?

It's bullsh#t.

Without people taking risks and giving things their all, there would be no 'tech industry'. And yes, same with Walmart. And Home Depot.

People are not all the same in the economy. Some contribute more than others at greater risk. Some are comfy making a more modest wage working for these entrepeneurs (like me).

Others just want to do very little and have gov't give them checks. So the old Capitalist picture displayed by the Soviets is pretty accurate. It is a kind of caste system, but to think eveyone deserves the same is stupid and naive.

We all have equal rights, and even opportunities, but the outcome is chosen by your individual actions and perserverance.

EDIT: And what that old Soviet pic of Capitalism fails to depict is that the gov't is at the top nowadays, not the "rich corporatist".

Why do you think commie China and Russia are almost more capitalist than us now???
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
Boy you sure come up with some naive dumb sh#t some times Bluey. Government is top dog huh?

As for the commies going capitalist, this is quite true but in case you havn't noticed they are giving that annoying democracy a pass and are going straight to the corporate authoritarianism. That is something that your beloved Walmart, Exon and Haliburton would gladly trade your mother and first born for, and if you would help them do it I'm sure they will reward you for your loyal stupidity.

Be careful before you label me as stupid. Aldous Huxley once said that one day as the Soviets and US surpassed each other in ideology, we would each become more and more like each other's past.

Them more capitalist, and us more State-ist. Or Communist. What do you see happening? Gov't controlled motors? Funded Solyndra? Gov't prevention of oil production? It goes on...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Commies don't understand.

They are just a byproduct of azzhole capitalists.


Good capitalists realize that with great power and wealth comes great responsibility. By my observation, many do realize this.


Bad capitalists screw up the whole world by feeding it to commies who tend to make sure there is justice for none.


This is where the f*#king neo-cons went wrong...they f*#ked it all up!

Read all these points and ask yourself if the commies are winning;
http://rense.com/general32/americ.htm

They are extracted from the Venonna Papers and the Communist Manifesto.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 12:00am PT
Even intelligent people are capable of stupidity, especially when their emotions and base impulses overrule logic and moral principle. It can happen to me as much as anyone..... are you suggesting that you are immune? What you just said is stupid and naive in my opinion. It shows a profound lack of understanding of what you are talking about. Any corporate entity would absolutely love to have the unfettered freedom from competition and any pretense of social responsibility that the state corporations of Russia and China enjoy, plus the cookie jar of capitalzation from the state. It is corporate heaven.

Re-read what I said, or implied.

Unfettered capitalism can not work, needs regs. Which is what China/Russia are doing. But not regs that debilitate the economy and the "engine". Fine balance!@

Nobody is immune, but the "underlings" need to suck it too! Everybody does. Everybody must contribute!

If takers outweigh givers, you have a collapsing state like Greece, et al...

China also underplays their currency. Unfair, when we're supposed to compete!.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:19am PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 28, 2012 - 12:58am PT
Why do you think commie China and Russia are almost more capitalist than us now???

Walmart IS Chinese, basically operates a slave labor force both here and abroad and foists it's true labor costs onto the American taxpayer. It represents corporations at their worst. Beyond clueless, duped in every respect. Republican dopers, minorities, and gays - as identity crisis go, those are tough ones and a sure sign of someone lost in the wilderness.
MisterE

Social climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 01:04am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Borut

climber
french, spider, cheater
Nov 28, 2012 - 05:32am PT
(China)

Economists use the term 'state capitalism'.
and politically, the label, ethics are those of communist China: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/Danghui.svg/190px-Danghui.svg.png
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:08am PT
Borut, товаришь мой, я знаю коммунизм! :-)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:45am PT
товаришь мой, я знаю коммунизм!

Well comrade, if you really do know communism, then you know that capitalism is the exploitation of man by man, whereas communism is just the reverse.

Больше водки, товарищ?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:53am PT
Ghost, I've only just had my first two espressos.
Sheesh, you think everybody here is a lush?

Oh, and thanks for the clarification.
(And yer Roosian is almost as gud as yer Norweeejon!)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
Uh, maybe we can keep this in English, my fellow capitalists.

The theory of communism is appealing to the unmotivated and lazy, but is always exploited by the 'rulers'. Baby steps away from communialism into totalitarianism.

From the feel-good, to the gulags and poverty. This is what I see slowly happening to us. And that's the only way the commies can break a free, independent, capitalist Republic like ours. Porn, brainwashing the youth, gov't reliance, destruction of religion, emasculating the male, racial division, class warfare, etc...

Break down culture,society, family and introduce the new God, the State.

You people think I'm crazy and paranoid but look at the last 4 years and the rhetoric. Forward!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
I largely agree with that article, Bruce, except for calling Obama center-right. Which makes me question the whole angle of the article. I skimmed it.

Sounds like a RINO in sheep's clothing like some of Romney's advisors who actually wanted him to lose.

But the whole part about calling Bush out for spending like a liberal Democrat I believe, and concur with.

But if this dude believed that, how could he call Obama center-right? Fishy.

I'm an independent conservative, not a Repub, like this poseur seems to claim.

Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Nov 28, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
Walmart IS Chinese, basically operates a slave labor force both here and abroad and foists it's true labor costs onto the American taxpayer. It represents corporations at their worst. Beyond clueless, duped in every respect. Republican dopers, minorities, and gays - as identity crisis go, those are tough ones and a sure sign of someone lost in the wilderness.

Truer words have never been written.

Bluey, a question for you, Why do you have such disdain for honest work?

Are Intel, Microsoft, Apple, Home Depot, or Walmart not entitled to reap profits from their gains? Who should reap the gains? The somewhat lazier, more uneducated "worker"?

Are you on the dole?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
Because he is far left of George Bush. I would call Obama a Globalist-commie, but he would like to be the King of it all. It's way too egotistical for me.

It's weird.

And his calls for a private citizen police force that is just as well funded as the military smells a lot like 'Brownshirts' from Nazi Germany. Also the weird child indoctrination is creepy to worship Obama.

EDIT: Gary, why does Walmart do business in China? Do you know? Why does Apple?
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Nov 28, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
EDIT: Gary, why does Walmart do business in China? Do you know? Why does Apple?

Because they hate our freedoms.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
No, corporate tax rates. We have some of the highest in the world. And very little tariffs on Chinese goods.

We are killing our economy through misguided economic policy. That includes Bush. Romney would have changed that. He said so, but nobody listened. People are stupid...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 10:50pm PT

But Bluey that exactly what i mean - all that Brown shirt malitia stuff is straight out of the fascist handbook. He's right of center I tell you.


Don't get too caught up in labeling dictators. They all have their own flavor. Fascist, communist, whatever...They're all totalitarians. Our cultural as#@&%es are definitely communistic, but you could argue that Obama is fascistic.

They're both very close in ideology when they're done.
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Nov 28, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
No, corporate tax rates.

Keep drinking the Kool-aid, Bluey. But it won't do you any good.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
Any opinion of the content of the article?

Or would that require actually reading it?


I already said I largely agreed with it. Duh? I skimmed it like any literate person would in a large article.

First sentence is the point, subsequent sentences in paragraph are explanation.

What's you problem, exactly?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Anyway, if you think Obama is a commie I'd hate to think what you'd call the average Canadian!

A socialist.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
So that makes you an anti-socialist.


I think you're just scared.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
Otherwise (gasp!) I might actually learn something!

So, what was your point in trying to make me look stupid? Did I miss some gem that you gleamed from the article?

I don't have time to fully read everybody's piece of wisdom, but I will skim them and usually get a feel for their weight.

Brennan, STFU. It's people who think like you who have gotten us to where we're at here. "ah, it's not that bad, nothing to see here"

This is because the geometry of where the center lies in modern policy and politics has followed popular cultural perception as far as what's reasonable and what's not as it applies to personal security.

This is mind-rot....

EDIT:
So that makes you an anti-socialist.


I think you're just scared.


Yep. Because I remember my history...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 11:23pm PT
You're a bit wrong, Bruce. You have to listen to him, Obama. He intends for much worse things.


Keep in mind that we affect global markets more than you guys. He is a speaker, not a leader. Other people are pulling his strings more-so than anybody I've ever seen in US politics.

Listen to him and watch him. He is nefarious.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
Fear.
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
Corporations are the next communist. Or rather the current communist.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
Who do you suppose is pulling his strings? The UN?

The politburo, you fool. Obama is obviously a tool of the Kremlin slavemasters. Can't you understand anything? Obama is so far to the left he makes Tommy Douglas look like Paul Ryan. It must be true. If Bluering believes it, who are you to argue?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 11:37pm PT

It's "gleaned"

And yes, you miss lots of "gems".


This is what I hate about you guys. Bitch, piss, moan, and never make f*#king point!

What did you glean that i missed? Quit pissing around.


Bruce, Soros and the globalists, which includes the UN. Remove US sovereignty. And yep, that means our Constitution too.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
The politburo, you fool. Obama is obviously a tool of the Kremlin slavemasters. Can't you understand anything? Obama is so far to the left he makes Tommy Douglas look like Paul Ryan. It must be true. If Bluering believes it, who are you to argue?

That's the old NWO, beware the new one. The old one failed.
They're trying to tweak it now to work globally. And yeah, corporations are involved. Bigtime!

EDIT: Remember what Obama told Medevev 'off mic'....just wait.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Policy and politics are a nation state's expression of SELF INTEREST and that is only a function of economics.


Exactly why we are sooooo screwed. The have-not's have voted for more free sh#t.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
But you're STILL only semi-literate.
And afraid.
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
Exactly why we are sooooo screwed. The have-not's have voted for more free sh#t.

um.. did you forget that Romney paid a lower tax rate then you?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
um.. did you forget that Romney paid a lower tax rate then you?


um...do you know why, exactly? He explained this if you were actually paying attention.

Do you?

EDIT: Jimmy, we have a problem. And it's the gov't....
John M

climber
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:02am PT
You know blue.. I think that I will quit now. I do know why. I still think its bullsh#t. The wealthy are wealthier then they have ever been. Corporations are wealthier then they have ever been. Supply side economics is bullsh#t. Where are the jobs if it works so great?

Cutting taxes for the wealthy is bullsh#t
Increasing the size of our military is bullsh#t

These are things Mitt promised to do.

Mitt is bullsh#t.

And now he is on toast.




thank God!!!
John M

climber
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:04am PT
Bullshit on toast. The republican dream.

ya ya ya...

You aren't a republican. You just vote for them.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2012 - 12:12am PT
You know blue.. I think that I will quit now. I do know why. I still think its bullsh#t. The wealthy are wealthier then they have ever been. Corporations are wealthier then they have ever been. Supply side economics is bullsh#t. Where are the jobs if it works so great?

Cutting taxes for the wealthy is bullsh#t
Increasing the size of our military is bullsh#t

These are things Mitt promised to do.

Mitt is bullsh#t.

And now he is on toast.

EDIT:
Steve,

No ! you have a problem with thinking you can't be replaced by someone just as skilled and far cheaper !

From another country !


Why I voted for Romney....




thank God!!!


What will replace replace the evil corporation? A compassionate State?

Have you not studied history? You are really misguided.

And frankly, I'm picking up some hate from you, which is weird. You people need to wake the f*#k up as to what is about to happen! The low-income Obama voters are going to be the first casualties in the New Economy.

You voted for it, now suck on it!
John M

climber
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:24am PT
Blue, about all I ever here from you on these threads is hate. So why do you complain if it comes back to you? I don't' hate you, but I sure am tired of how superior you act. And yes.. I see how superior others, including myself at times act.

I said nothing about getting rid of corporations, but when we gave them the same standings as a human, then we made a huge mistake. They are way too powerful. They need to be reined in.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:14am PT
Other people are pulling his strings more-so than anybody I've ever seen in US politics.

Ah, so you were in a coma from 2000-08. I thought as much.
squishy

Mountain climber
Nov 29, 2012 - 01:28am PT
I love the fact that he use "speaka" in there...so so telling...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Bluering! Happy May Day, Fellow Worker!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Feb 5, 2014 - 09:40am PT


This cracked me up. No bun pun intended.
Thought Locker would get a kick out of it.
But shouldn't it be a "Red" butt plug.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 27, 2014 - 06:03am PT
Everything is o.k., remain passive and calm. The gov't will take care of you.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 27, 2014 - 06:27am PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 12:06am PT
Comrade Bluering! Greetings, on this International Worker's Day!

"The slave frees himself when, of all the relations of private property, he abolishes only the relation of slavery and thereby becomes a proletarian; the proletarian can free himself only by abolishing private property in general." -- Cliven Bundy

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Workers of the World, Unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 1, 2014 - 01:46am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
May 1, 2014 - 07:05am PT
May you have a glorious First May Day. Happy happy! :-)
Worker's unite!

Life's so good.
:-D

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 08:53am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 10:03am PT
Climbers, unTIE!

Dinger, have you considered all of the repercussions of such a revolutionary statement?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 10:36am PT
<shiver> "Summit or plummet" cuts a little too close to home.
Rock Monkey

Mountain climber
Thousand Oaks, California
May 1, 2014 - 11:18am PT
what else is new?
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 11:20am PT
Happy May Day Bluey!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Gary, you crack me up.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
Hazel Jane Dickens (June 1, 1935 April 22, 2011) was an American bluegrass singer, songwriter, double bassist and guitarist. Her music was characterized not only by her high, lonesome singing style, but also by her provocative pro-union, feminist songs. Cultural blogger John Pietaro noted that "Dickens didnt just sing the anthems of labor, she lived them and her place on many a picket line, staring down gunfire and goon squads, embedded her into the cause." The New York Times extolled her as "a clarion-voiced advocate for coal miners and working people and a pioneer among women in bluegrass music."

[Click to View YouTube Video]
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 1, 2014 - 01:27pm PT

I see a lot of press that could be deemed Anti-Chinese these days. Figure the root of it is the US government for whatever reason. Interesting that Obama said we were going to "pivot" to that region, then Ukraine happened so we pivoted back, now we're just pivoting around getting little done and we're getting dizzy. Here's my question, are the Chinese .gov folks considered communist or capitalist? Does the answer matter? What changes either way?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 1, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
One man's communist is a later man's oligarch.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
May 1, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
well put Reilly.

the problem with gov't is that it is a human endeavor, administered by fallible, self-interested human beings.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
more like "LYNCH" not "LUNCH"

By the way, CPUSA is alive and doing well.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26126325
Long live Woody, Utah, Pete, Kate (Wolf), Rosalie (Sorrels), Gemmy Bluestein (look him up in your history of California folk music), Joe Hill (may or may not have been guilty of murder, executed by firing squad 3 miles from where I grew up but 40 years earlier), Ani DiFranco
Mother Jones, Harry Bridges (San Francisco. Died 1990 age 88), Eugene Debs, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, Frank Little (WWII pacifist), Big Bill Haywood.
Some of them scoundrels and Communists. But to paraphrase Barry Goldwater "extremism in defense of the working man and woman (liberty) is no vice....and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
Communism, on paper, is all warm and cuddly. It's first problem is that it presupposes one-party rule.
That brings out the A-holes and allows them to flourish un-checked. Then when their stupidity
brings it all down around their ears they re-invent their system and become oligarchs.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
...workers' councils

Gasp! You mean...soviets!?


Y'know, the anarcho-syndicalists, in that little part of Spain they ran back in the '30s, did a pretty good job of it by all accounts.

Then they got stabbed in the back by Stalin.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
Get a job!
You bet, I never met a worker who wasn't eager to work for a fair wage and decent and safe working conditions. Never met one who wanted to be laid off when a factory closed (been there, done that). Some health insurance is a good idea too. Can you say OSHA without screaming Socialism?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2014 - 04:45pm PT
Get a job? That's what the capitalists should do, and get off our backs! Let those parasites earn their own damn keep.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 1, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
Bluering sees communists where even McCarthy would have been too blind to see them... Bluering is a quite extraordinary pattern-finder... Are there many communists among American cats, dogs and horses?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 1, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
kinda gets you to wondering, what has happened to PTC.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 1, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
The MPAA guy at 4:45 could be talking about the Bundyites
Oh the irony!

Nixon at 5:45

Moyers at the end:
An irrational craving for the safety of conformity. A stampede of patriotic fervor
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
Happy May Day, Komrades!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 1, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
Say, is that Bluey at the front, alone, carrying the sign?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
That's my uncle, Paddy. I was a small commie-hater in recruitment at that time.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
No matter how much you hate commies, bluey, you have to admire this young communist's attitude facing a fascist death squad. What a fine death. I wish I knew his name.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
I knew it. Cinco de Mayo and La Raza are Communist babies. Guess where they originted?

Leon Trotsky, when he moved to Mexico. More like exiled to Mexico.

Cinco de Mayo (May Day) is a Leon Trotsky tribute to the birthday of Karl Marx. Has little to do with the battle against the Frenchies.

Also, not only is La Raza an inherently racist org, it's communist.

Explains a lot about the trevails of South/Central America since WWII. Socialist/Commies through and through, and they still haven't broken free.

There's a book coming out soon that lays this all out in detail, back from pre WWI times. It's been a global cabal for quite a long time. Go ahead and call me parnoid, but the last century is rife with evidence.

This century continues that cabal, under a similar guise. Global oligarchy.

Communism, on paper, is all warm and cuddly. It's first problem is that it presupposes one-party rule.
That brings out the A-holes and allows them to flourish un-checked. Then when their stupidity
brings it all down around their ears they re-invent their system and become oligarchs.

Yep!

And the commie getting gunned downed by fascists? That's happening in Syria/Iraq right now. Islamic fascism. Let them kill each other off. I don't give a f*#k!
jstan

climber
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
I absolutely must learn how to copy and promulgate Gary's GIF.

It says it all.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
Wipe em away , keep America free , for me...!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Cinco de Mayo (May Day) is a Leon Trotsky tribute to the birthday of Karl Marx.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:37pm PT
bluering! Welcome back!

We have been missing your drunk-posts.

ST is blessed.

Usually, every village has an idiot.

But, with your help, we have:

an abundance of right-wing idiots!


Thank Godless!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
Fritz, explain the idiocy of my last post.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 10, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Bluering!

I will admit your last post was not quite an ice-axe into Trotsky's head sort of cutting-edge post,

but you are--------unfortunately,------ pre-judged by your prior drunk spews.

Namaste
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 10, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
Lets suppose Cinco De Mayo is a commie inspired holiday. Rest assured, it has been totally co-opted by large corporations, it is now one of the biggest drinking holidays of the year. Feel better now?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
Bluering!

I will admit your last post was not quite an ice-axe into Trotsky's head sort of cutting-edge post,

but you are--------unfortunately,------ pre-judged by your prior drunk spews.

Namaste

You, my friend are throwing the baby out with the baby-water, so to speak.

The truth is just that, the truth. You can castigate the person bearing the truth, but the facts still remain.

And tell me which "drunk spews" of mine you like the best. Elucidate one.

You have fallen into the trap of smearing the messenger of uncomfortable, politically-incorrect facts.

Who's the fool, or idiot? Easy to cast aspersions, but are they really warranted?

I've been right all along about my OP. It's even worse now!

EDIT: Most "progressives" don't even realize they are commies. Read the Communist Manifesto and The Venona Papers and you'll see what I mean.

Nothing wrong with spouting that bullshit in America (1st Amend.), and the commies knew this, but yer still a commie if you agree with those tenants, by definition!

EDIT:
Lets suppose Cinco De Mayo is a commie inspired holiday. Rest assured, it has been totally co-opted by large corporations, it is now one of the biggest drinking holidays of the year. Feel better now?

You kinda make my point. Next time you see a naturalized Mexican citizen, ask him/her about Cinco de Mayo. They'll tell you it's a silly holiday not even celebrated in Mexico.

Again, read the Commie Manifesto and the Venona Papers about degrading US culture, making us stupid idiots.

The plan has been in place since the Cold War. Did we really win, or is there an alternate plan that has infected us since...?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 11, 2014 - 12:48am PT
Blue-ring

Communists are no threat to America. They have no power here. Wanna Identify a threat identify power.

This country is so far right it's not got much further to go.

Obama makes Raygun look liberal.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 11, 2014 - 01:08am PT
Always stick with Old Money. They never argue about politics because they already own everything.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2014 - 07:26am PT
Fritz, explain the idiocy of my last post.

I thought that last post was an awe inspiring troll. Well played, bluey.

C'mon, people, nobody could be so ignorant and stupid as to think Cinco de Mayo (May Day) is a Leon Trotsky tribute to Karl Marx.

Could they?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2014 - 08:20am PT
Communism is the successful economic system in history. Early man lived in communist societies, and it was these societies that spread from a small band in Africa to world domination. That's success! The gradual shift to capitalism that has culminated in the last few centuries has brought about the most abysmal period of man's history.

So don't say it doesn't work.

Even bluey, in a post he deleted last page, was advocating for worker's councils! I think that makes him a commie. And if bluey is a commie, well then, we all are.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Jul 11, 2014 - 08:29am PT
My Little Commie?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
John M

climber
Jul 11, 2014 - 08:35am PT
So if we celebrate cinch de mayo then we are celebrating Karl Marx's birthday?????? And that means we are communists????

LOL.. someone tell Blue who was born on 4/20. Its all a conspiracy man.. I'm telling you.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:01am PT
Communists are AWESOME!!


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:24am PT
Cliven Bundy! Now there's a communist! He doesn't believe in property, nor does he believe in the state. It's all about power to the people for him

To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality." -- Cliven Bundy
dirtbag

climber
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:40am PT
This is one of the all time funniest threads.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 11, 2014 - 10:47am PT
Gary, that's an awesome passage, and I can appreciate it in a number of areas, as can we all.


BUT, I bet 10,000 shekels that it was NOT penned by Bundy himself. That was written by some admiring anti-govt sub-man who saw the opportunity to get his text out on the nose of the current anti-govt media darling.

There is no way Cliven can string that much together......
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 11, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
bluering - have you gone off your meds?

I would like to make it clear that many of my friends and many of my most admired role models hail from the U.S. Unfortunately, they appear to be outnumbered by pathetic, psychotic mouth breathers like you. It's difficult to find the energy to attempt to awaken whatever atrophied brain cells that may still cling to life in your skull, but I may as well try.

I'm proud of the factual reality of my beliefs - many of which could be termed "lefty", but I generally take moral guidance from the guy who gave us the Sermon of the Mount. You may have heard of this commie bastard - he kept spouting evil crap like: "blessed are the peacemakers", "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and so on. No need to get upset about this guy, because he was tortured to death, and probably by your ancestors.

Oh, yeah - "lefties" have less in common than you (and whoever is warped enough to tolerate your presence) have with Hitler. How dare you post this kind of crap - even if you are permanently drunk? I have ancestors who have been murdered by communists, and I would have no problem with sticking Stalin & his cronies high on any list of mass murderers. Come to think of it, both Henry Ford & Nelson Rockefeller had no problem doing business with Stalin - or Hitler, for that matter. I guess they were commies as well.

Furthermore, during the '30s, thousands of U.S. social democrats (yes - there is a difference, you imbecile) migrated to the U.S.S.R. to participate in Stalin's "utopia". To my knowledge, nearly every single one of these idealists were murdered by Stalin's death machine. Also, uncounted numbers of anti-nazi freedom fighters who fought for democracy in Spain were murdered by Stalin's commissars. Yeah, you total arsehole - all lefties are the same.

I've been through this movie before, but if you feel that it may help raise your twisted soul from the festering septic tank it inhabits, I'd be happy to provide you with a sadly incomplete list of the war criminals that end up elected to office in the U.S. For starters, in any civilized nation, both Bushes and Donald Rumsfeld would be serving life sentences for crimes against humanity, not to mention for the direct participation or complicity in the mass murder of innocents.

Oh, yeah facts are facts. That means that they are verifiable by reasonable people with access to reputable sources. This is true - just ask anyone who isn't a wannabe mass murderer like yourself.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
bluering - have you gone off your meds?

I would like to make it clear that many of my friends and many of my most admired role models hail from the U.S. Unfortunately, they appear to be outnumbered by pathetic, psychotic mouth breathers like you. It's difficult to find the energy to attempt to awaken whatever atrophied brain cells that may still cling to life in your skull, but I may as well try.

I'm proud of the factual reality of my beliefs - many of which could be termed "lefty", but I generally take moral guidance from the guy who gave us the Sermon of the Mount. You may have heard of this commie bastard - he kept spouting evil crap like: "blessed are the peacemakers", "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and so on. No need to get upset about this guy, because he was tortured to death, and probably by your ancestors.

Oh, yeah - "lefties" have less in common than you (and whoever is warped enough to tolerate your presence) have with Hitler. How dare you post this kind of crap - even if you are permanently drunk? I have ancestors who have been murdered by communists, and I would have no problem with sticking Stalin & his cronies high on any list of mass murderers. Come to think of it, both Henry Ford & Nelson Rockefeller had no problem doing business with Stalin - or Hitler, for that matter. I guess they were commies as well.

Furthermore, during the '30s, thousands of U.S. social democrats (yes - there is a difference, you imbecile) migrated to the U.S.S.R. to participate in Stalin's "utopia". To my knowledge, nearly every single one of these idealists were murdered by Stalin's death machine. Also, uncounted numbers of anti-nazi freedom fighters who fought for democracy in Spain were murdered by Stalin's commissars. Yeah, you total arsehole - all lefties are the same.

I've been through this movie before, but if you feel that it may help raise your twisted soul from the festering septic tank it inhabits, I'd be happy to provide you with a sadly incomplete list of the war criminals that end up elected to office in the U.S. For starters, in any civilized nation, both Bushes and Donald Rumsfeld would be serving life sentences for crimes against humanity, not to mention for the direct participation or complicity in the mass murder of innocents.

Oh, yeah facts are facts. That means that they are verifiable by reasonable people with access to reputable sources. This is true - just ask anyone who isn't a wannabe mass murderer like yourself.

So you don't like commies, but I'm an as#@&%e for pointing out groups that tow the line of the Communist Manifesto? Doesn't that make you a liar? Hypocrite?

Have you ever read the Manifesto and the Venona Papers?

And yes, please illustrate the "war crimes" committed by Bush and Rumsfeld.

Has Obama committed any?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
bluey
I knew it. Cinco de Mayo and La Raza are Communist babies. Guess where they originted?

Leon Trotsky, when he moved to Mexico. More like exiled to Mexico.

Cinco de Mayo (May Day) is a Leon Trotsky tribute to the birthday of Karl Marx. Has little to do with the battle against the Frenchies.
Where did you get that nonsense?
Try good ole Communist gold town Columbia, CA
According to a paper published by the UCLA Center for the Study of Latino Health and Culture about the origin of the observance of Cinco de Mayo in the United States, the modern American focus on that day first started in California in the 1860s in response to the resistance to French rule in Mexico. "Far up in the gold country town of Columbia (now Columbia State Park) Mexican miners were so overjoyed at the news that they spontaneously fired off rifles shots and fireworks, sang patriotic songs and made impromptu speeches."[32] A 2007 UCLA Newsroom article notes that "The holiday, which has been celebrated in California continuously since 1863, is virtually ignored in Mexico."[32] TIME magazine reports that "Cinco de Mayo started to come into vogue in 1940s America during the rise of the Chicano movement."
Long before Trotsky was a glint in his daddy's eye.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:31pm PT
And in Mexico
On 9 May 1862, President Jurez declared that the anniversary of the Battle of Puebla would be a national holiday regarded as "Battle of Puebla Day" or "Battle of Cinco de Mayo".
bluey, you are susceptible to the most inane conspiracy theories out there.

Early on in this thread, a couple of years ago you lauded Cleon Skausen.
The entire mainstream Republican Party disavowed him. He was a certifiable "Commie in every schoolroom and under every bush" whacko.
In 1962 the FBI was digging under every rock looking for real Soviet controlled Communists.
Yet
A 1962 FBI memo described Skousen as affiliating with an "extreme right-wing" group which was promoting "anticommunism for obvious financial purposes".[3] Skousen authored a pamphlet titled The Communist Attack on the John Birch Society, characterizing criticism of the Society as incipient communism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleon_Skousen
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
the illegal war in iraq could be considered a war crime perpetuated by bush/cheyney. to deny this would be a f*#king lie
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
Trotsky kept a pretty low profile in Mexico, but not low enough, obviously. I am curious how
Bluey came up with that but I am not tempted to consult my copy of Leon's autobiography.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 06:38pm PT
HT, do you really think that it's a coincidence that the 5th of May is also Karl Marx's birthday? May Day?

If it's such an awesome Mexican day, why do thy not celebrate it?

Read the Venona Papers and the Commie Manifesto. This is their plan, along with Mexican rights groups.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
Bluester wrote:

Have you ever read the Manifesto...

Have you? I've got a copy around here someplace, I could mail it to you.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 14, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
bluey
let's get some facts straight
Marx joined the International Workingmen's Association in 1864.
It's highly unlikely any California miner/logger etc had heard of Marx in 1863. Possibly a few effete intellectual college professors.

Leon Trotsky was born in 1879.
so please tell me the meaning of this claim:
is a Leon Trotsky tribute to the birthday of Karl Marx

Presumably you already know Trotsky was no Communist.
After leading a failed struggle of the Left Opposition against the policies and rise of Joseph Stalin in the 1920s and the increasing role of bureaucracy in the Soviet Union, Trotsky was successively removed from power in 1927, expelled from the Communist Party, and finally deported from the Soviet Union in 1929. As the head of the Fourth International, Trotsky continued in exile in Mexico to oppose the Stalinist bureaucracy in the Soviet Union.
And murdered by an undercover NKVD agent in 1940.
The Real Communists saw him as a mortal enemy.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jul 14, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
Growing up in the Midwest we celebrated May Day on May 1. Great fun sharing little bags of candy with friends and weaving/ braiding ribbons on the May Pole.

Quite a distinct holiday from Cinco de Mayo (May five obviously) which we celebrated heavily living in Texas.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Quite a distinct holiday from Cinco de Mayo (May five obviously) which we celebrated heavily.

Obvious to you, not so obvious to the bluester.
John M

climber
Jul 14, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
its not a coincidence that 4/20 is pot celebration day and

HITLERS BIRTHDAY..

bluey.. are you a closet pot smoking Nazi ???????
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
bluey
let's get some facts straight
Marx joined the International Workingmen's Association in 1864.
It's highly unlikely any California miner/logger etc had heard of Marx in 1863. Possibly a few effete intellectual college professors.

Leon Trotsky was born in 1879.
so please tell me the meaning of this claim:

Commie apologist, huh?

Trotsky was a commie, but the Proletariet didn't like his rantings. They whacked him. He, like most commies, went "the wrong way".

Che, Castro, Mao, et al., all had their own take that led to the same results.

Thatcher and Reagan did more for humanity than any f*#king commie, despite their preachings and platitudes.

Keep sucking the Commie teet, and see where that gets you. They claim to be for the middle-man, while they tear him down.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 14, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
HT, I would respectfully submit that Trotsky was the remaining true believer who did not fit
into Stalin's cult of personality. Remember, Lenin trusted Trotsky but was deeply suspicious
of Stalin, not to mention quite dismissive of his intellect, something nobody ever doubted
about Trotsky.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
See hightraverse, complete waste of time.

DMT

As I said above, he was murdered by the Commies he used to associate with. He went rogue.

And if it's a "complete waste of time", why do you keep posting on this?

Who killed Trotsky, and why?

Also, do you deny that Commies have infiltrated our political system?

EDIT:HT, I would respectfully submit that Trotsky was the remaining true believer who did not fit
into Stalin's cult of personality. Remember, Lenin trusted Trotsky but was deeply suspicious
of Stalin, not to mention quite dismissive of his intellect, something nobody ever doubted
about Trotsky.

Yep.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 14, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Also, do you deny that Commies have infiltrated our political system?

The Koch brothers are communist? Who knew.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
No more than Bill Gates, Murdoch, George Soros, or others.....
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Also, do you deny that Commies have infiltrated our political system?

It's all encompassing, bluering. It's worse than even you imagine. You know about fluoridation? Fluoridating water? Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, bluering? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, bluering. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, bluering, during the physical act of love... Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, bluering. Women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, bluering, but I do deny them my essence.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 14, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Also, do you deny that Commies have infiltrated our political system?

Uhh.. yeah. Pretty much the opposite has taken over.

1950 called .. they want their conspiracy back.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 14, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 14, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
Documentation of Communist Goals to overthrow America! (Apparently, short skirts are not one of the methods?)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 14, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
I get all wistful (teary even) when I think back on how free and beautiful America was before the commies ruined it.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 15, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
bluering - no I haven't read the communist manifesto, but I have read Mein Kampf, which was written by a fortunately dead arsehole who shared both your logic and beliefs.

As for your ridiculous attempt to insinuate that people who don't share your neo-fascist agenda are being manipulated by the non-existent legions of commies that you vainly seek everywhere, here's a story - I was quite involved in social democratic causes when I was in university, and the only people that we found to be more pathetic than those of your ilk were the commies, and here's why:

 all the Marxists were capable of doing was boring us to death with talk about the communist manifesto. About the only thing that I think I remember about that that document was that it had a ridiculously idealistic attitude towards the positive side of human nature.

 the Troskyists actually believed that the workers and students were on the brink of uniting to overthrow the establishment. This was particularly hilarious, since most of the unionized workers were only interested in pounding anti-war students into pulp, since a peaceful world might cost unionized workers precious jobs. They also wanted to kill the Marxists and Maoists beacause they weren't REAL communists.

 the Maoists (at least the only ones I ever met) appeared to be clinically insane. As nearly as I could figure out their crap, they wanted to kill everyone (or put them into "re-education" camps).

Since you're a paranoid idiot, I doubt that you get the joke. Here's the punch line: THE COMMIES WERE TOO BUSY THREATENING AND ARGUING WITH EACH OTHER TO GET ANYTHING ORGANIZED.

If I haven't already made my point, unlike you, I was in a position to discover the existence of an effective and organized communist conspiracy to recruit "fellow travellers". Maybe such an conspiracy existed, but, if so, it was a pathetic failure.

Here's a real life fact that you may be able to correct me about if I am mistaken: it is illegal to be a communist in the U.S. without registering with the government, but it is perfectly legal to be an unregistered Nazi, a member of a violent racist organization, or a member of a psychotically paranoid militia group (are Timothy McVeigh's surviving buddies all in jail because they didn't register with the government?). I expect a response from you on this one.

bluering - as for the gigantic list of war criminals that end up in elected office, I suggest that you read a reputable newspaper, numerous books written by credible authors, or maybe even a web site that has the reputation of integrity in reporting.

As for the Bush dynasty (and the parade of gleeful murderers and thieves attracted to them like flies to a dung heap), I have no intention of writing you a book that you're too dumb to read, so I'll give you just a few notes that can be easily verified.

 Before Sadaam Hussein invaded Kuwait, he asked the U.S. ambassador to the region (April Glaspie, if I recall correctly) if the U.S. would intervene in a dispute between Iraq and Kuwait. He was informed that the U.S. had no interest in getting involved. Hussein, being an idiot as well as a U.S. ally at the time proceeded to invade Kuwait.

 Nearly all of the Iraqi soldiers sent to fight the Western coalition forces were unwilling conscripts. These people were nearly annihilated, but Bush and his cronies left the Republican Guard (Iraq's elite military unit) untouched. (The Republican Guard continued to terrorize Iraquis until Bush Sr's retarded spawn decided to try to top his daddy in the atrocity department).

 As the war was drawing to an end, Bush Sr. hinted to the Kurds and other dissident groups that they could count on support from the U.S. if they revolted against the Hussein regime. These poor fools actually thought that the President of the United States was a man of honour and obligingly mounted a rebellion. They were slaughtered by the thousands, and not so much as a band-aid materialized from the White House.

 Anyone of even average intelligence agrees the the invasion and complete destruction of Iraq under the pretext of destroying Hussein's non-existent weapons of mass destruction was a war crime. FAR more than 100,000 unarmed Iraqi civilians have died to date as a result of this atrocity, not to mention the complete destruction of that nation's infra-structure, and the loss of their entire cultural heritage.

 Many U.S. troops also died and were maimed during the above conflict, and I doubt that a single one of these people who served their nation so faithfully appreciated the fact that they were getting paid peanuts compared to the mercenaries from Haliburton - one of Cheney's (or was it Rumsfeld's?)stock holdings.

Go see a psychiatrist before you do something criminally stupid, bluering. If you offered a cash reward for the discovery of every single communist I could locate at present, I'd have to tell you that I haven't spoken to a supporter of that ideology since 1969.

P.S.: Just because someone thinks that people should treat each other kindly doesn't mean that they're commies. I just means that they don't think it's a good thing to be a greedy, vicious arsehole.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
it is illegal to be a communist in the U.S. without registering with the government...
I don't believe that to be the case. The Smith Act requires registration of Aliens, and makes conspiracy to overthrow the government a crime.

One person convicted and imprisoned under the Smith Act for being a Communist was Robert Thompson. Thompson was a recipient of the Distinguished Service Cross and received a battlefiled commission in WWII:

"For extraordinary heroism in action near Tarakena, New Guinea, on January 11, 1943. Volunteering to lead a small patrol in an attempt to establish a foothold on the opposite shore, Staff Sergeant Thompson swam the swollen and rapid Konembi River in broad daylight and under heavy enemy fire. Armed only with a pistol and hand granades, he assisted in towing a rope to the other shore where he remained under cover of the bank and directed the crossing of his platoon. Staff Sergeant Thompson then led the platoon against two enemy machine-gun emplacements which dominated the crossing, and wiped them out. The success of this action permitted the advance of the entire company and secured a bridge-head for the advance of the following units."

After his death Congress tried to keep him out of Arlington. Murray Kempton wrote:

"And so, an American who was brave has been judged and disposed of by Americans who are cowards of the least excusable sort, cowards who have very little to fear. Yesterday the Army called Robert Thompson's widow and said that it would send his ashes wherever she wished. Wherever those ashes go, the glory of America goes with them."

So there you have it, one Commie who was a far better American than bluering.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 15, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
Gary - thanks for the info. I learned something today, and it gives me hope for the future survival of Democracy in the U.S. to learn something that actually qualifies as a fact instead of a torrent of hysterical and clinically paranoid fantasies from the likes of bluering.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 15, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
Y'all should read up on the travails of Paul Robeson who was convicted in the
court of Congressional Opinion for having consorted with communists. There
is a phenomenal one man play, and play doesn't do it justice, currently
doing the rounds that was written and performed by Daniel Beaty. It is
called "The Tallest Tree In The Forest".
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 15, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
Reilly - Paul Robeson (who was black) was a pretty interesting guy. As far as my memory serves me, he actually may have been a communist - no matter. Things could have been worse - he could have spawned a twisted oreo like Condaleeza Rice. I digress. He certainly figured that a nation that enshrines the right to freedom of speech as a cherished entitlement of all U.S. citizens also granted this liberty to him.

During the 1950s McMarthy assault on democracy in the U.S., he was ordered to appear in front of their inquisitors. It escapes me what provoked the interrogator to tell Mr. Robeson to "go back to the Soviet Union" if he held the opinions that he defended. Big mistake.

One does not need to share Mr. Robeson's beliefs to appreciate the beauty of his response, which went something like: "Don't you dare tell me that. You brought my ancestors over here in chains to build this nation. This is my country and I have a right to live here".

I admit that the above quote probably isn't verbatim, but I have no doubt that the exact wording can be checked out easily enough through the miracle of the Internet, or even your local library.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 15, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
Hey Dingus - good of you to mention that slimebag McCarthy. I can hardly wait until bluering posts an adoring testimonial to that prick.

Then I get to point out to bluering that McCarthy got taken down by the U.S. Army, which I imagine is another communist organization in bluering's list of bad guys.

The quote that sank McCarthy demanded of him: "have you no honor?", which, of course, he didn't.

Hats off to the U.S. Army for doing their job, which is to protect the United States from all enemies - both foreign and domestic.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 15, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
Stewart, you got the quote close enough to do him honor. Yes, he was
for all intents a commie but hardly a bomb thrower.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 15, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
The problem with taking communism and putting it in the box marked religion is that it has all the characteristics of religion save for the redemptive factors. It stole the narrative of religion (and before the usual idiots yell at me that the people in the administration are socialists, not communists, bah. In Europe everyone who wasnt a member of the two parties knew perfectly well the difference between them. Socialist is what communists say they are before they have absolute power. Theyre a Marxism of the same color) but without the transformational event (the return/arrival of the Messiah, the transformation of the world by divine power) what we get is a desperate attempt to try to fit their theological frame work to reality-as-it-is.

This is important to remember. Religious people fit their religious narrative to the world-plus-divine-grace or to an after life in which were all redeemed and beyond our worst dinosaurian tendencies.

The communists dont. They just tell themselves that once evil capitalism and profit is removed from the world, humans will be different. (If you dont think this is true, then you never read their tiresome nattering about Homo Sovieticus back when they still tried to justify their nonsense.) But capitalism (as in barter, trade and self interest) are intrinsic parts of being human and cant be removed without killing society (and the humans that compose it.) And even then, capitalism and the humans that remain only go underground.

In this way Communism is akin to a religion that decided the human brain was the offending organ, without which wed all live in unending bliss. The truth is that once you remove the brain the human no longer offends, because it no longer does anything but decompose.

So all of communisms narrative: once there was a society of perfect sharing, without trade or self interest.>Capitalism somehow entered the world>Capitalism gets removed from the world >paradise ensues is a-priori and a-posteriori too, for that matter (they do a lot of pulling stuff out of their posteriori) a system of beliefs that denies reality. And the more the system fails in the real world, the more it denies reality. It has to, because the alternative is to stop believing in the system. And while people who converted as adults might be able to do this, or at least to come to a cynical position vis--vis communism, where they acknowledge its failures but still think its the best, or at least the best for them, people who have been raised in it CANT. They either walked away in adolescence or, if they stayed, if theyre the good kids who bought the whole thing hook line and sinker, walking away in mid-life would destroy them. It would break apart their entire ability to see an interpret things.

And thats what were dealing with in the current administration. Sure, of course theyre destroying things on purpose. Theyre convinced America is the embodiment of capitalism, and once its removed from the world equality and flowers will ensue. Everything they were taught (yeah, the progressives took over education LONG ago) tells them so. So, yeah, theyre taking Alinskys methods and destroying everything with remarkable success.

In fact, theyre succeeding beyond their wildest dreams.

http://accordingtohoyt.com/2014/07/15/the-wrecking-crew/
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 15, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
Shhh. The Red Eagle flies at midnight. Tell all travelers. I repeat, the red eagle flies at midnight.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 15, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
Flip Flop: Careful. That eagle-eyed patriot bluering might be on to us.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
So all of communisms narrative: once there was a society of perfect sharing, without trade or self interest.>Capitalism somehow entered the world

Whoever wrote that is very ignorant. Or deceitful.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 15, 2014 - 06:44pm PT
LOL,

Spoken like a true believer.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
Here's a real life fact that you may be able to correct me about if I am mistaken: it is illegal to be a communist in the U.S. without registering with the government, but it is perfectly legal to be an unregistered Nazi, a member of a violent racist organization, or a member of a psychotically paranoid militia group (are Timothy McVeigh's surviving buddies all in jail because they didn't register with the government?). I expect a response from you on this one.

I cannot see how being a Commie is illegal. That would violate the 1st Amendment. Even being a neo-Nazi is legal, even if unregistered. I'm not sure where you heard this.

If you advocate for violence or the violent overthrow of the gov't, that's entirely different.

Before Sadaam Hussein invaded Kuwait, he asked the U.S. ambassador to the region (April Glaspie, if I recall correctly) if the U.S. would intervene in a dispute between Iraq and Kuwait. He was informed that the U.S. had no interest in getting involved. Hussein, being an idiot as well as a U.S. ally at the time proceeded to invade Kuwait.

So what? Not a war crime.

Nearly all of the Iraqi soldiers sent to fight the Western coalition forces were unwilling conscripts. These people were nearly annihilated, but Bush and his cronies left the Republican Guard (Iraq's elite military unit) untouched. (The Republican Guard continued to terrorize Iraquis until Bush Sr's retarded spawn decided to try to top his daddy in the atrocity department).

So what? Not a war crime. It was a wise move too in hindsight. Weaken Saddam enough to cripple him from invading neighbors, but strong enough to control the crazy Shiites and Sunnis, and keep Iran at bay.

As the war was drawing to an end, Bush Sr. hinted to the Kurds and other dissident groups that they could count on support from the U.S. if they revolted against the Hussein regime. These poor fools actually thought that the President of the United States was a man of honour and obligingly mounted a rebellion. They were slaughtered by the thousands, and not so much as a band-aid materialized from the White House.

Not a war crime, but a bad move IMO.

Anyone of even average intelligence agrees the the invasion and complete destruction of Iraq under the pretext of destroying Hussein's non-existent weapons of mass destruction was a war crime. FAR more than 100,000 unarmed Iraqi civilians have died to date as a result of this atrocity, not to mention the complete destruction of that nation's infra-structure, and the loss of their entire cultural heritage.

Not a war crime. The UN agreed that he had WMD's and set the mandate. And HE DID in fact have WMD's left over from his Halabja campaign against the Kurds. Those are now in the hands of ISIS crazies. They may be inert now, but would you take chances being around that sh#t?

Many U.S. troops also died and were maimed during the above conflict, and I doubt that a single one of these people who served their nation so faithfully appreciated the fact that they were getting paid peanuts compared to the mercenaries from Haliburton - one of Cheney's (or was it Rumsfeld's?)stock holdings.

Not a war crime. It was Cheney, but I'd be surprised if Rummy didn't have stock as well.

Go see a psychiatrist before you do something criminally stupid, bluering. If you offered a cash reward for the discovery of every single communist I could locate at present, I'd have to tell you that I haven't spoken to a supporter of that ideology since 1969.

What the hell does criminally stupid mean? Did I commit a crime?

Also have you ever heard of the CPUSA? http://cpusa.org/
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
Spoken like a true believer

No, spoken like someone who's read something besides The Blue Book.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 15, 2014 - 08:48pm PT
bluering - You have my vote for the prince of mouth breathers. Have you EVER lost a loved one in a war, or to some other unprovoked violent crime? I didn't think so. There's an emotion that members of the human race experience when terrible things happen to those that they love: it's called grief, and there's no cure for it. Even Arabs are capable of experiencing this emotion.

Assuming that you think that you're a Christian, I should inform you that the first commandment in the bible goes "thou shall not kill". I assume that GOD put it at the top of the list to remind even smirking ninnies like you that we only come through this way once, and that murdering people is just plain wrong.

Your contemptible attempts to pretend that you actually understand what constitutes a war crime would be laughable if mass murder was funny, but it appears as though it is beyond your mental capacity to be persuaded otherwise. Nevertheless, I'll try to respond to one of your "points". Those WMDs were deactivated after Desert Storm, but for the sake of argument, let's give you that one. Now answer one for me: where do you think they got the chemicals to manufacture these WMDs in the first place? I should warn you, though, that this is a trick question.

Sadaam was a U.S. ally, which was also why he got away with blasting a U.S. destroyer before Desert Storm. It also explains why he got away with using poison gas against the Kurds and other Iraqi dissident groups - not to mention the Iranians. Also, the Bin Ladens were (and for all I know still are) close personal friends of the Bush gang and their corrupt, murderous accomplices. I should remind you that the only civilian aircraft flying immediately after 9/11 contained Bin Ladens on their way back to Saudi Arabia.

It is obvious that you have never fought in a war, nor have you even the slightest concern for the thousands of your own countrymen who fought for the United States and had their entire lives shattered by the horrors that they witnessed - and all for nothing, unless your name happened to be Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. Those guys made a FORTUNE out of the slaughter of Iraqi innocents. Also, Haliburton's mercenaries were paid far more than U.S troops, and were accountable to no one but the CEOs of Haliburton.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 15, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
Captain...or Skully

climber
in the oil patch
Jul 15, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
Yer a Moran.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Jul 15, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
this thread started out with such promise

only to be a huge let-down for patriots all over the US of A
jstan

climber
Jul 15, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
The start:


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.

Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 7, 2008 - 01:53am PT
O.k., I'm gonna start this thread but I have a lot more to expose when I get better organized.

Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?

Amnesty Int'l

World Workers Party (prolly nazi's)

ANSWER (overt Marxists)

ACLU (American civil liberties? When did they support border patrol agents?)

La Raza (for those that don't speaka spanish..that means "the race", as in brown supremacy...who's the racist?)

AZTLAN ( these idiots clearly state they want to re-conquer the SW United States.)

MECHA...just google it

EDIT: CODE PINK should be on the list too.


I'd say I'm sorry for posting political crap...but I ain't. You people need to wake up.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 15, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 12:51am PT
Assuming that you think that you're a Christian, I should inform you that the first commandment in the bible goes "thou shall not kill". I assume that GOD put it at the top of the list to remind even smirking ninnies like you that we only come through this way once, and that murdering people is just plain wrong.

Actually, the commandments says, "Thou shalt not MURDER". Meaning the taking of innocent life in cold blood. But yeah, murder is definitely bad. A sin.

Those WMDs were deactivated after Desert Storm, but for the sake of argument, let's give you that one. Now answer one for me: where do you think they got the chemicals to manufacture these WMDs in the first place? I should warn you, though, that this is a trick question.

Irrelevant. Possessing weapons is different than deploying them against an innocent population. At least in WWII we deployed in an act of self defense against the aggressor, Japan. We actually saved lives (probably) by dropping 2 nukes on the Japs. And we even warned them to stand down twice before deploying. The thought we were bluffing.

As for Saddam? He was a strategic balance to the mullah's in Iran after Jimmy Carter deposed the Shah. You have to understand Middle Eastern and Islamic despots. Sometimes they are needed, at least until their people take a step into the 20th century, or maybe even the 21st.

These people need dictators to keep the animals in their cages, so to speak. Just look at Egypt, Libya, Syria, and now Iraq...again. Without a forceful 'ruler', they animals go crazy and even start killing each other. In very savage manners.

We made a mistake in deposing Saddam. As we did with Mubabrak and Ghaddafi. And as we almost did with Assad.

I don't like these mother-f*#kers, but they're better than the alternatives. It'll be interesting to see how Asscrapistan plays out with Karzai....
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 16, 2014 - 01:44am PT
These people need dictators to keep the animals in their cages, so to speak. Just look at Egypt, Libya, Syria, and now Iraq...again. Without a forceful 'ruler', they animals go crazy and even start killing each other. In very savage manners.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 05:20am PT
As for Saddam? He was a strategic balance to the mullah's in Iran after Jimmy Carter deposed the Shah.

Stop it, dude! You're killing me!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 06:56am PT
Where the hell do you get this stuff Bluey?

Probably from this idiot:
dirtbag

climber
Jul 16, 2014 - 06:58am PT
This is a very funny thread.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jul 16, 2014 - 07:55am PT
I think you need to update your fears, bluering. Communists are scarce nowadays.

But, the OP.... Amnesty International? If there's ever an organisation who works for human rights... they've saved many lives. Really, bluering? You just can't be serious.


Edit: Who's that, Dingus?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 16, 2014 - 07:58am PT
Obommie is a commie.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:00am PT
Who's that, Dingus?

Michael Weiner aka Michael Savage. Right wing racist, and jingoist radio commentator.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:11am PT
Oh my. LOL.
There's not one communist in the Unitedstatian establishment. They're so utterly far from the ideas of communism it's a laughable thought. To accuse your president (I assume you mean him, even if you show no respect for the office) of being a communist rather shows nothing but ignorance of the ideology.


On the other hand, I gather "commie" has nothing to do with the original concept. It's a common mongering word, like "moron" or "dipshit" or "jerk". An expression for "I-don't-like-you-or-your-politics".

(Comment to dirtbag's post, not Gary. Thanks for the answer, Gary.)

dirtbag

climber
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:17am PT
Lollie you might be surprised how many people are totally convinced he is a card carrying Commie, including the op.

Yes, it's a silly notion, but combined with lingering racist attitudes, and politicians who are willing to exploit this, it begins to present problems.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:19am PT
Still, a lot of this fear is funny to watch.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:21am PT
Lollie, you are correct. Bluering, TGT, etc, know absolutely nothing about it. The left has been eliminated in this country through repression and propaganda that makes Goebbels and Pravda look like absolute amateurs. The USA is the only country in the world where the working class votes in the interest of the capitalist class. It's amazing.

BTW, dirtbag was being sarcastic.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:32am PT
Gary, is it not possible that the left in this country has been eliminated by being hoisted by
their own petard? Certainly there was repression but if their song had any resonance there
would have been more people who would have joined the refrain.
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jul 16, 2014 - 09:39am PT
dirtbag, by your second post I understood you were sarcastic. And, that fit better with what I believed. Was a bit surprised, but thought I must had gotten it wrong before. :-)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 09:53am PT
Gary, is it not possible that the left in this country has been eliminated by being hoisted by
their own petard? Certainly there was repression but if their song had any resonance there
would have been more people who would have joined the refrain.

Reilly, I don't think so. Lots of people were joining the refrain. Back in the '20s even though he was still imprisoned in the Atlanta federal penitentiary Eugene Debs polled 10% of the presidential vote. People were voting Socialists into congress, only to see congress refuse to seat them. The Sewer Socialists were quite popular in many parts of the country. They were not corrupt and actually took care of their cities. Frank Zeidler, an outlier, remained the Socialist mayor of Milwaukee even through the McCarthy era.

FDR saved capitalism in this country by adopting some of the more popular planks of the Socialist Party. Through that and harassment of the leadership of the left in, including not only imprisonment but outright murder, it fell into irrelevance. We're now so far to the right that people like Ron and bluering actually think Obama is a communist.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 16, 2014 - 10:14am PT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 16, 2014 - 10:44am PT
Obama .. is to the right of raygun..

fact

Obama

provides FAR less welfare
Harder on immigration
More fiscally responsible
Raised taxes less
deregulated firearms (national parks)
increased oil drilling
attacked more nations
killed more bad guys
In office when Khadafi apprehended and killed (some righties blame Obama for the arab spring)
cracked down on crime and the border more
shielded more corporations
done nothing for unions
increased corporate profits under his admin
brought America out of a FAR larger recession

Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 16, 2014 - 11:11am PT
The White Daddies are still reacting to the multi-generational trauma initiated by the huge social changes that took place between 1964 and about 1975. When the Millennials take over, all that stuff is going to disappear. When the Boomers are safely locked away in old folks' homes (or living on the streets in boxes), all their anxieties and phobias are going to die with them. Death takes care of a lot of things including the fact that the American standard of living is going to be a lot lower for the majority of people no matter what kind of rhetoric they use or political fads they follow.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
Oh my. LOL.
There's not one communist in the Unitedstatian establishment. They're so utterly far from the ideas of communism it's a laughable thought. To accuse your president (I assume you mean him, even if you show no respect for the office) of being a communist rather shows nothing but ignorance of the ideology.


On the other hand, I gather "commie" has nothing to do with the original concept. It's a common mongering word, like "moron" or "dipshit" or "jerk". An expression for "I-don't-like-you-or-your-politics".

Don't be naive. There are gradations of Socialism that range from Scandanavian-style, to Venezuelan-style, to old USSR/Cuba-style, to National Socialist-style (Nazi), to North Korean and Maoist styles.

It usually starts in a rather feel-good, mundane manner. "For the greater good of the people". But people that tell you that are usually full of sh#t and just seeking to reign in more power. They do it by promising hand-outs, gov't taking care of you. It sucks the independent spirit from the soul of the individual. It makes you reliant on the State.

Too many of the groups I laid out do not overtly claim to be commies (like Communist Party USA). What they do is they couch themselves in rhetoric, like Progressives. And we do have one declared Socialist in the US gov't, Bernie Sanders.

These people know that communism in the US is a taboo word, for good reason. It's anathema to the United States. So what they do is subscribe to Socialist/Communist ideology in they rhetoric and actions, but avoid those labels.

It's quite disingenuous. You have to judge people by their declarations and actions, not their declared political party.

Once you look at the declared motives in the Venona Papers, the Commie Manifesto, and other documents, you see that we do have a current problem with people/groups that are aiming for the same goals declared therein.

In my book, that makes them commies.

Obama .. is to the right of raygun..

fact

Obama

provides FAR less welfare
Harder on immigration
More fiscally responsible
Raised taxes less
deregulated firearms (national parks)
increased oil drilling
attacked more nations
killed more bad guys
In office when Khadafi apprehended and killed (some righties blame Obama for the arab spring)
cracked down on crime and the border more
shielded more corporations
done nothing for unions
increased corporate profits under his admin
brought America out of a FAR larger recession

This is just uninformed bullsh#t....or intentional lies.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 16, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
This is just uninformed bullsh#t....or intentional lies.


Says the guy who also said:


These people need dictators to keep the animals in their cages, so to speak. Just look at Egypt, Libya, Syria, and now Iraq...again. Without a forceful 'ruler', they animals go crazy and even start killing each other. In very savage manners.



It's interesting that you are informed enough about an entire nations citizens that you can confidently classify them all as animals. Just wow.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
It's interesting that you are informed enough about an entire nations citizens that you can confidently classify them all as animals. Just wow.

How would you classify AQIM (Al Qaeda in the Mahgreb) in North Africa, Al Nusra Front in Libya/Syria, ISIS (or IS now) in Syria/Iraq, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt?

These countries had much more reasonable control of things before we intervened and removed strong-handed leaders.

The groups are blood-thirsty animals that were controlled until we stepped in. We, essentially, destabilized reasonably stable countries.

As a result there are animals running free killing those they disagree with. Innocents.

Just wow! Whatever the f*#k that means. Is that supposed to add legitimacy to your point?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 16, 2014 - 07:19pm PT
This is just uninformed bullsh#t....or intentional lies.

All true bud.. and basically common knowledge for that matter.

please show me how each of those points is incorrect?

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
But people that tell you that are usually full of sh#t and just seeking to reign in more power. They do it by promising hand-outs, gov't taking care of you. It sucks the independent spirit from the soul of the individual. It makes you reliant on the State.

Your world is upside down. Everything you know is wrong.

Forget the propaganda you've been fed all your life. This is what it's all about. In a nutshell. Think about, and tell me what you think.

We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets.
-- Eugen Debs
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets.

So the worker gets 20 hats that he made instead of $15.00/hr. I'll take the cash.

The capitalist is the one PAYING the worker after the capitalist STARTED THE F*#KING COMPANY AND EMPLOYED ALL THE WORKERS. The workers share in the profits of selling the goods, and the capitalist also gets profit to pay off his debt and maybe start another factory. It's not complicated, commie!

Everyone wins too. Including the people the capitalist is buying raw material from.

Obama

provides FAR less welfare
Harder on immigration
More fiscally responsible
Raised taxes less
deregulated firearms (national parks)
increased oil drilling
attacked more nations
killed more bad guys
In office when Khadafi apprehended and killed (some righties blame Obama for the arab spring)
cracked down on crime and the border more
shielded more corporations
done nothing for unions
increased corporate profits under his admin
brought America out of a FAR larger recession

~ Far less warfare? Obama started conflicts in Libya, and encouraged the overthrow of Mubarak (succeeded) and Assad (still ongoing bloodshed). He also continued Bush's drone program, actually enhancing the frequency in Pak and Yemen (but I'll give him kudos for that).

~Harder on immigration? These numbers are false, I know which ones you're trying to cite. The BP classifies as people caught at the border as 'turn-arounds', not deportations. Obama is pushing this number into the deportation category. Look it up. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/21/lies-damned-lies-and-obamas-deportation-statistics/

~More fiscally responsible? DO I really need to cite this one out, do you really believe this sh#t with our current growing deficit?

~ Raised taxes less? Did Reagan 'raise taxes'? Obama wanted to raise them and he did on top earners, and otehrs; http://www.atr.org/comprehensive-list-obama-tax-increases-a6694

~ Deregulated firearms? No, he is pushing for many new regs on firearms, he just keeps getting stopped.

~ Increased oil drilling? Not really. Why are gas prices up? Why not approve Keystone? Also, oil means nothing w/o refineries.

~ Attacked more nations? Yeah, you're good on this one. But he f*#ks up the op when he does it. Screws up everything.

~ Khaddafi killed? That was not a win, brah. That was a fail. We could have killed him years ago. He was a useful asset that we killed.

~ Cracked down on border crime? Fast and Furious. 'Nuff said...

~ Shielded more Corps.? The ones he liked, that contribute to him. But all as#@&%e politicians do that, so I'll give you that.

~ Does nothing to Unions? Gave them an exemption from Obamacare.

~ Increased Corp. profits? Ugh, that's the market, not Obama.

~ Brought the US from a far bigger recession? He's delaying the impact by printing money and keeping interest rates unusually low, delaying inflation.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
The capitalist is the one PAYING the worker after the capitalist STARTED THE F*#KING COMPANY AND EMPLOYED ALL THE WORKERS. The workers share in the profits of selling the goods, and the capitalist also gets profit to pay off his debt and maybe start another factory. It's not complicated, commie!

Do you think people are entitled to more wealth than they create?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:38pm PT


Fidel Castro leaving a wreath at the Lincoln Monument in 1969.


Bluering! You truly do look at the world from a paranoid & right-wing biased viewpoint.

Its really true.

Ronald Reagan could not make it as a Republican presidential candidate these days, and Obamas political points are mostly more conservative than Reagans were.

You are a slave to the stuff you watch, read, or hear from the right-wing media, that want to keep you a working-class, right-wing slave.



A while back, I asked you if your glass was mostly-full, or mostly empty?

You never answered, but in my America, my glass is mostly-full, and only your beliefs and attitude are keeping your glass mostly-empty.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 16, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
far less WELFARE.. welfare as it was known in rayguns time ended under clinton and is in no way close to rayguns levels under Obama

Raygun provided complete amnesty for over 3 million illegal immigrants and then continued to fail at securing the border

raygun raised taxes 11 times

Obama has only deregulated firearms.. what obama says and what he does are two very different things.

I could go on but im very bored with this already


I'm no fan of Obama , but it's because like all recent and all foreseable future presidents he is a corporate shill.. they have to be or they cannot become elected.

Wealthy interests control who becomes president .. not voters... we don't even get to vote till they choose two (more like 6 to 10) candidates fully acceptable to them via campaign donations


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
Do you think people are entitled to more wealth than they create?

Loaded question. If their COrp. that they created creates more wealth due to their genius ideas, then yeah. See Apple.

Raygun provided complete amnesty for over 3 million illegal immigrants and then continued to fail at securing the border

Do you do any research? Reagan was promised border security if he passed the bill, and Congress f*#ked hin on that.

That's why Repubs are reluctant to do do it again. Border enforcement FIRST this time.[quote}

A while back, I asked you if your glass was mostly-full, or mostly empty?

You never answered, but in my America, my glass is mostly-full, and only your beliefs and attitude are keeping your glass mostly-empty.

Aside from the bullshit housing bailouts, I'm half-full. I just can't afford a house because homeowners were bailed out instead of being allowed to default. This created an unrealistic house inflation and I still am shut out of an over priced market that should have crashed.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 16, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
I still am shut out of an over priced market that should have crashed.

What planet are you from?

It crashed and destroyed prices by half or better.. prices are only just recently recovering.

Edit

http://www.zillow.com/santa-clara-ca/home-values/

OK nevermind you live in Santa Clara .. prices there only crashed about 20% and are currently higher than the prices before the crash. 800k average price.. Clearly Communism is taking over eh?

Guess my Nevada perspective is a bit skewed on this one.. but yours is too.. neither market is very representative of the national situation.

Hmm 800k average price would indicate a need to make about 300k a year to afford it. Yet they are selling pretty well.. yep.. the communists clearly have won.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
They only slightly crashed. Remember the bailouts to people who took mortgages they weren't actually qualified for?

This was the Genesis of the Rick Santelli rant that created Tea Party. People like me paid tax-dollars to bail out people who were under-qualified to have homes.

And people like me got f*#ked to help out other people.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Rick+Santelli+rant+Tea+Party&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=18ED522084F2F257566A18ED522084F2F257566A
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 16, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
who sold them those mortgages and who got bailed out even more?.. what president allowed and did that..

give you a clue.. starts with a B...as in the type of pure capitalist business involved and the presidents last name.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 16, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
bluering: Let's review.

-You approve of the mass murder of innocents by U.S. war criminals like the Bushes and their odious accomplices.
-You post pictures of the execution of (I assume) Chinese citizens. Without comment. Is Obama responsible for making China the largest trading partner of the U.S.? Regardless, are you attempting to organize a boycott of all products imported to the U.S. from China because you are so upset about this? Are your fascist buddies all on board with such a plan?
-The comments you keep spouting are like the crap sounds that come from terminally scratched vinyl records. Give us some credible facts from reputable sources. So far, you have proven beyond all doubt that you are the worst kind of idiot, namely one who believes their own evil bullsh#t.
-The few criticisms that you deign to respond to are casually dismissed by you as if you actually had a deep understanding of international law - which you don't.
-You continue to insinuate that that you have a profound insight of how progressive human beings are sucked into the "communist conspiracy". I provided you with a lengthy explanation of how it is in reality - based on my (adult) lifetime involvement in progressive causes. I speak with considerable authority when I repeat that this is RIDICULOUS.(To spare those who have better things to do with their time than track down my previous posts, I shall repeat the three main points I made earlier):
1)There is a lengthy historical record of commies making a point of liquidating their erstwhile allies the instant they got control of the reigns of power. This FACT has not gone unnoticed by those who hold progressive beliefsUnderlined.
2)There are several different communist factions i.e. Trotskyists, Maoists,
Marxists, Marxist-Leninists and so on. They HATE each other - as nearly as I figure out because they "know" that their ideological opponents aren't real communists.
3)I have not even met a confessed communist since 1969, and I have NEVER had an admitted communist attempt to recruit me - except for an occasional clearly mentally ill human being who couldn't organize a decent party in a free beer factory.
-Far better people than you have fought and died to protect the freedoms we enjoy today. You dishonour their sacrifice by passing off fascist propaganda as fact.
-That was a pretty funny picture you posted claiming that Obama has, amongst other things confiscated your precious guns. I laughed so hard I almost cried at that one. Perhaps us Canadians are such gifted hunters that we can take down game with no more than five shots or, for that matter, protect our loved ones. Then, again, it's kind of hard for even the most twisted Canuck to re-enact the Sandy Hook massacre. There's a good chance that he'd get stopped before he had time to reload.

Oh, yeah - thanks for straightening me out on the First Commandment. Apparently it means that you shouldn't murder people. I guess that means that the 100,000++ Iraqi women and children killed during the course of the complete destruction of their nation under the leadership of the Bush dynasty actually died of gratitude. My mistake, Einstein.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
It goes deeper than Bush. Do some f*#king research!!!!

It was Barnie Frank, Dodd, and Jimmy Carter with the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA).

It was Fannie/Freddie. It had very little to do with Bush in reality.

It also had to do with repealing Glass/Stiegal. (CLinton).

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 16, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
I'll give you that much on the cause..holy crap we agree on something....but not on the bailout

Like I said ..presidents these days don't work for communists.. they work for the opposite.

and they sure as hell don't represent the "people"
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 16, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
bluering take your meds - quickly. You've managed to make even less sense than usual. A miracle.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
Stewart, make your post posts more concise and I may continue to reply to you. Your continued 'laundry lists' are time-consuming to reply to coherently.

Keep it simple and on-topic. I don't have the time for all yer bullet-points.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:48am PT
Loaded question.

It's not a loaded question, it's simple.

If I plant and tend an acre of corn and harvest 20 bushels, am I entitled to that 20 bushels?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 17, 2014 - 07:26am PT
Labor's share of income, in the post WWII era. We are essentially at all-time lows. Capitalism is great, sort of. We have way overshot, time to return some more fruits to labor, or time to for labor to get out the pitchforks and guillotines and remind these f*#kers that the peons vastly outnumber them and would be perfectly happy to see their heads on pikes and bodies swinging from the gallows...we can start in Greenwich, CT and go from there.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 07:33am PT
^^^^. That's about the most meaningless graph I've ever seen. Isn't most of that attributable
solely to the ageing demographics?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 17, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
bluering - yeah, simple is about as much as your twisted mind is capable of comprehending.

You have undoubtedly never heard of Occam's Razor. It's a tool used by many academics who are seeking the most logical explanation for complex problems. It goes this way: the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Bearing that in mind, your hysterical paranoia about a communist conspiracy to infiltrate every organization formed by human beings whose politics are to the left of Hitler (if based in fact) would be of major interest to:

-The FBI
-The CIA
-Homeland Security
-The New York Times (and pretty well every other reputable media outlet on the planet). Also, any of these organizations would pay you a fortune for factual evidence to back up what would arguably be the story of the century.

Let me know how you make out on this, and let me know how large a percentage of the reward you intend to share with me when your amazing revelations hit the front pages.

Oh yeah - you don't like bullet points. At least those who share my beliefs don't figure it's hilarious to use real ones.

Go back to school and learn something about the rest of the world which, just like the U.S., is inhabited by human beings who don't like to see their loved ones get murdered by evil politicians. Or brain damaged ninnies like yourself.

Reilly - no, the graph has little to do with demographics. Many books have been written about this, so here's the admittedly simplified explanation: Before Reagan's masters persuaded him to start the "free trade" ball rolling, most U.S. citizens had access to a job that would actually keep them and their families alive - those were the days when you actually had a thriving industrial base to your economy.

The free trade scam works this way: ship western jobs overseas to a friendly third world country whose worker protection standards are non-existent and the wages are laughably poor compared to those that would be paid to a western employee. Now here's the punch line: the employer then pockets the massive wage difference and starts snivelling to politicians about being over-taxed. Obligingly, the government lowers the corporate tax rate, thereby putting MORE money into corporate feeding troughs. Meanwhile, with all of these jobs headed overseas, western workers begin to realize that if they actually start to demand some rights, then it will probably result in their being black-listed as a troublemaker, making it even more difficult to secure decent employment.

Now, using Occam's Razor, have another look at the graph. Also check the source, or is this U.S. government department controlled by commies?

I would be grateful if someone out there could post the percentage of U.S. wealth held by the top 1% of the U.S. population. Admittedly, I could track this information by myself, but I get migraines attempting to explain the responsibilities of being a member of the human race to bluering. It might even give him a legitimate target for his outrage.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
COmmunist goals to infiltrate, transform, and weaken America

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

Also The Ten Planks of The Communist Manifesto;

The Ten Planks of the
Communist Manifesto
1848 by Karl Heinrich Marx

How "Marxist" Has
the United States
Become?


Although Marx advocated the use of any means, especially including violent revolution, to bring about socialist dictatorship, he suggested ten political goals for developed countries such as the United States. How far has the United States -- traditionally the bastion of freedom, free markets, and private property -- gone down the Marxist road to fulfill these socialist aims? You be the judge. The following are Marx's ten planks from his Communist Manifesto.

1. Abolition of private property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose.
The courts have interpreted the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868) to give the government far more "eminent domain" power than was originally intended, Under the rubric of "eminent domain" and various zoning regulations, land use regulations by the Bureau of Land Managementproperty taxes, and "environmental" excuses, private property rights have become very diluted and private property in landis, vehicles, and other forms are seized almost every day in this country under the "forfeiture" provisions of the RICO statutes and the so-called War on Drugs..




2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
The 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913 (which some scholars maintain was never properly ratified), and various State income taxes, established this major Marxist coup in the United States many decades ago. These taxes continue to drain the lifeblood out of the American economy and greatly reduce the accumulation of desperately needed capital for future growth, business starts, job creation, and salary increases.




3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Another Marxian attack on private property rights is in the form of Federal & State estate taxes and other inheritance taxes, which have abolished or at least greatly diluted the right of private property owners to determine the disposition and distribution of their estates upon their death. Instead, government bureaucrats get their greedy hands involved .




4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
We call it government seizures, tax liens, "forfeiture" Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process.




5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
The Federal Reserve System, created by the Federal Reserve Act of Congress in 1913, is indeed such a "national bank" and it politically manipulates interest rates and holds a monopoly on legal counterfeiting in the United States. This is exactly what Marx had in mind and completely fulfills this plank, another major socialist objective. Yet, most Americans naively believe the U.S. of A. is far from a Marxist or socialist nation.




6. Centralization of the means of communication and transportation in the hands of the state.
In the U.S., communication and transportation are controlled and regulated by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) established by the Communications Act of 1934 and the Department of Transportation and the Interstate Commerce Commission (established by Congress in 1887), and the Federal Aviation Administration as well as Executive orders 11490, 10999 -- not to mention various state bureaucracies and regulations. There is also the federal postal monopoly, AMTRAK and CONRAIL -- outright socialist (government-owned) enterprises. Instead of free-market private enteprrise in these important industries, these fields in America are semi-cartelized through the government's regulatory-industiral complex.




7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
While the U.S. does not have vast "collective farms" (which failed so miserably in the Soviet Union), we nevertheless do have a significant degree of government involvement in agriculture in the form of price support subsidies and acreage alotments and land-use controls. The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture. As well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Evironmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.




8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
We call it the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000. And I almost forgot...The Equal Rights Amendment means that women should do all work that men do including the military and since passage it would make women subject to the draft.




9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
We call it the Planning Reorganization Act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136.




10. Free education for all children in government schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.
People are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, which train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" .

Few people refer to themselves as Communists anymore. But many still seek the same goals, they just call themselves more 'progressive' names that sound nicer. Same goals though.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
Dr. Ben Carson says "Buy this book!" I can't possibly imagine that the entire purpose is to create a fear based market for banal writing on easily debunked or irrelevant topics.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
HDDJ, you got a problem with Doc Ben Carson? Are you racist?
Captain...or Skully

climber
in the oil patch
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Man, you've a serious case, huh?
Poor bastard.....
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
Go back to school and learn something about the rest of the world which, just like the U.S., is inhabited by human beings who don't like to see their loved ones get murdered by evil politicians. Or brain damaged ninnies like yourself.




Great advice from Stewart.


PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
Blue Ring you should become a comedian. I always laugh when I read your posts.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
Go back to school and learn something about the rest of the world which, just like the U.S., is inhabited by human beings who don't like to see their loved ones get murdered by evil politicians. Or brain damaged ninnies like yourself.

I'll bet I've lived in and traveled to more countries than yourself. But I don't really think that is as relevant as you seem to do.

I mean...that is a joke, right? Or something from a previous thread between you two?

Jeremy it's a play on the fact that a conservative cannot criticize a minority on policy without getting called a racist.

Dr. Ben Carson is a black conservative, who once had the NERVE to criticize Obama on his policies, to his face!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
bluering - brilliantly reasoned response, as always. Oh, yeah - Dr. Carson is what we used to call an Uncle Tom before the term "oreo" became popular.

So is there a tourist market out there where ignorant fascists can go to murder women and children?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
So is there a tourist market out there where ignorant fascists can go to murder women and children?

I wasn't a "tourist", I said I LIVED in and visited many countries. And your implications such as saying I'm and idiot and like killing women and children have grown tiresome...
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 17, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
blue - good to see you are still brain dead and loud as f*#k....



now get back to the bunker, there may be a crack in your defenses..
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 17, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
Holy Schist Bluering!!!

The Naked Communist was published in 1958. I suggest you try to find a local chapter of the John Birch Society. If their geriatric members can't update you as to what happened to Commies, no-one can.

I suspect no-one can help you.

Find a new hopeless right-wing paranoid crusade.

Hunting commies has fallen out of fashion, because their aren't any here to hunt.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
The Naked Communist was published in 1958. I suggest you try to find a local chapter of the John Birch Society. If their geriatric members can't update you as to what happened to Commies, no-one can.

It was re-published in the mid-90's. And maybe you missed where I illustrated where, except for the Communist Party USA (CPUSA), there are those with the same ideologies/goals that simply call themselves different names now. Progressives is one of them.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:12pm PT
Bluering: 1958 publish date per Wikipedia for the original edition of The Naked Communist.

You are not learning from the past as should we all-----you are simply a reflex tool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Naked_Communist
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
The 1994 republish is probably updated to put things into current contexts. I have a copy on the way, I'll let ya know.

But the point of my post at the top of the page is to illustrate that they are achieving many of their goals through liberal policy, or quasi-Marxist policy. This has been going on since the 60's.

This is why many ultra liberals are referred to as pinkos, the new commies. They don't call themselves commies, but they are achieving all the goals laid out by commies.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like duck...I don't give a f*#k what you call yourself, yer still a commie duck.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
I'll bet I've lived in and traveled to more countries than yourself. But I don't really think that is as relevant as you seem to do.


What's relevant is you claim to be a good Christian who loves his fellow man in one breath but you also consider your fellow man in certain areas of the world to be wild animals that need to be dictated.




If it walks like a duck, quacks like duck...I don't give a f*#k what you call yourself, yer still a commie duck.

If it posts stupid sh#t, truly believes stupid sh#t & crusades for stupid sh#t then it's probably:












































































































































































Bluering!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
OK bluering.

Live with paranoia.

Live with fear.

Live with hate.

Live with your mostly empty glass.

I'm living a good life in America and I only have a little paranoia about what the right-wing wants to do with the America I love, and no hate & fear.

My glass is mostly full and I really feel sorry that you have worked yourself into a mental state where your drink of life is thin & sour, and your glass is not mostly full.

On the other-hand, maybe we both can enjoy this cartoon. I love it!

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 09:04pm PT
I bet that Bluering's Bunker is the playroom basement of his parents fancy house in the richest town in the galaxy.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 17, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
hey bluering; gee. My mistake. You only approve of the murder of women and children if they aren't charter members of the Bush war crimes society.

Oh, yeah. The definition of insanity is continually repeating the same behaviour and expecting a different outcome. There isn't a single rational person on this planet who would accept your drivel as fact.

Maybe you're not an idiot, but there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind that you are a demented arsehole.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 17, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
I bet that Bluering's Bunker is the playroom basement of his parents fancy house in the richest town in the galaxy.

you'd lose that bet.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:28am PT
Loaded question.

It's not a loaded question, it's simple.

If I plant and tend an acre of corn and harvest 20 bushels, am I entitled to that 20 bushels?

Well, bluey?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:46am PT
Who paid for the land?

Who paid for the seed?

Who paid for the water?

Who paid for the tractor?

who paid for the fertilizer?

Answer those items first.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:58am PT
Bluering queried
HDDJ, you got a problem with Doc Ben Carson? Are you racist?

Yes. Like most Americans I am racist. But thanks for illuminating your views on Ben Carson.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:32am PT
Skousen
See bluering top of previous page.

end times prophecy
A book by Skousen on end times prophecy, The Cleansing of America, was published by Valor Publishing Group in 2010, four years after his death

Skousen had been Salt Lake chief of police for several years and then was sacked by the new mayor J. Braken Lee. Skousen supporters claimed it was a political witch hunt but actually most of the people of Salt Lake City were pretty tired of his over the top policing and huge police budget.
In return:
Skousen supporters protested the abrupt firing by disrupting a city council meeting[14] and planting burning crosses on Lee's lawn.
became too whacko for responsible organizations.
He also served as Field Director for the American Security Council, but his increasing paranoia resulted in his abrupt termination in 1962.
Skousen was a former FBI agent. Finally the FBI had enough of his antics:
A 1962 FBI memo described Skousen as affiliating with an "extreme right-wing" group which was promoting "anticommunism for obvious financial purposes".[3] Skousen authored a pamphlet titled The Communist Attack on the John Birch Society, characterizing criticism of the Society as incipient communism.
So Skousen accused the 1962 FBI of being incipient Communists?
In 1970, the LDS Church was under considerable attack for its refusal to ordain blacks into its priesthood. In response, Skousen penned an article entitled "The Communist Attack on the Mormons," in which he accused critics of "distorting the religious tenet of the Church regarding the Negro and blowing it up to ridiculous proportions" and of serving as Communist dupes.
Your hero Skousen firmly believed there was a Communist behind every bush. Even the conservative
By 1979 the Mormon Church had finally had enough of him
Skousen had support among many LDS people in the 1960s and early 1970s. By 1979, that enthusiasm had spilled over into individuals promoting Skousen seminars inside local LDS church buildings and meetings. The First Presidency issued a letter against promoting Skousen in LDS wards and stakes

The Naked Communist is a 1958 book by an ex FBI agent, United States author political theorist Cleon Skousen.

The author posits and seeks to describe a geopolitical strategy by which the MarxistLeninist Soviet Union was attempting to overcome and control all the governments of the world that were not members of the Communist bloc.
As I've said before, indeed there were Communist spies and "agents" in the US. There still are Russian agents. Just as there were and are US agents in the Soviet Union, Russia and yes, even current Germany.


LOOK OUT BLUEY!!!!
There's a Commie behind you!!!!
and she's got an AK-47!!

all quotations from Wikipedia
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:41am PT
Who paid for the land?

Who paid for the seed?

Who paid for the water?

Who paid for the tractor?

who paid for the fertilizer?

Answer those items first.

I did. So, do I get the full benefit of my labor?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:51am PT
Your labor is just like a horse.
(or anything else)

It's worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:56am PT
yeah, but what if the gubmint is payin' another guy not to breed more horses?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:58am PT
So, TGT, since the answer will lead you places you don't want to go, you'll just sidestep it. Is that it?
WyoRockMan

climber
Flank of the Big Horns
Jul 18, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.

Communism: You have two cows. You give them to the Government, and the Government then gives you some milk.

Fascism: You have two cows. You give them to the Government, and the Government then sells you some milk.

Nazism: You have two cows. The Government takes both and shoots you.

Progresives: You have two cows. The Government takes both, shoots one, buys milk from the other cow, then pours the milk down the drain

Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Raise more cattle and grow your local economy.


dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
Actually a lot of "bull" is bought.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 18, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
TGT and bluey, still afraid to answer a simple question. Still afraid to agree that people have the right to the fruits of their labor. Fine.

Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull. Raise more cattle and grow your local economy.

Let me correct that for you:
Capitalism: You have two cows. 90% of the cows are now mine, thanks for doing all the work, sucka!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 18, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
khanom - thanks for the clarification. I'm still waiting for blueringworm to explain why the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, and every media organization on the planet aren't publicly thanking our favourite fascist for alerting them about this GIGANTIC conspiracy.

Considering the hordes of exceptionally skilled operatives that would be needed to actually engineer this fantasy, I would love to learn where they're getting recruited from, and why I haven't been invited to join.

Of course, I'm still waiting for that moon yodeler to provide a single reputable source for any of the crap that he's already spouted. Alas. I shan't hold my breath lest I suffocate.

Speaking of suffocation, I'm surprised that this guy hasn't already expired from breathing the fumes from the bullshit he's attempting to spread.

WyoRockMan - read this carefully. I don't want to have to restate any of this:

 Stalin was arguably the worst mass murderer in history. He was scum, and not much brighter than bluering. Even Lenin hated him.
 Nevertheless, during World War Two, 70 -80%(sources differ) of ALL Nazi casualties occurred on the Eastern front. Ergo, the Western Allies were spared far worse casualties thanks to the commies.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
Who paid for the land?

Who paid for the seed?

Who paid for the water?

Who paid for the tractor?

who paid for the fertilizer?

Answer those items first.

I did. So, do I get the full benefit of my labor?


If you did everything yourself, you get to decide what to do with the goods. Probably have to pay taxes if you sell it though.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
Bluering, you ever see the film "Food Inc" ?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
Bluering, you ever see the film "Food Inc" ?

Nope. But I'm sure it's totally unbiased, right?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:06pm PT
Occam's Razor
Doncha know Occam was a Commie?
bluering uses his own razor. Gives him more confidence
(odd how my automatic spelling correction always wants to change bluering into blurring)

So come on now blurring, tell me why you think Cleon Skousen is any more relevant in the 21st century than he was in the late 20th?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
In the particular book I mentioned, he appears to have called everything correctly on that particular issue, of communism influencing our country.

And the communists themselves have openly stated similar goals. The Venona Project operated for almost 40 years after the start of WWII. We gathered a lot of intercepts from them. Many of those things were how to influence the US to their advantage.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
blueringworm: How did you like the definition of insanity I located for you? It came from a reputable source, so look it up.

So when are you going to take my advice about alerting the FBI, CIA, etc. about this spectacular conspiracy? Oh yeah - they started laughing so hard when you called that they couldn't hold on the phone long enough to get your name so that they could find out where to send your medal for saving the U.S. from this spectacularly well-organized assault upon your helpless nation.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
And the communists themselves have openly stated similar goals
So please help me understand.
Who are these Communists? What nationality are they? Which Communist Party do they owe allegiance to? Why is the FBI not alerting us? Is Snowden a Communist? Chelsea Manning?

oh....maybe it's the Russian family that moved in next door a year ago. They are rather odd. They both work in high tech. They must be stealing technical and trade secrets for their Communist Overlords. Send their two little girls to a Russian school instead of our excellent public school. Her mother, his mother and his father from Russia alternately stay at their house to look after the kids. None of the parents speak English. They're always getting parcels in UPS sent from Russia. He put a security camera on our communal gate as soon as they moved in.

oh.....communal gate. THAT's the clue.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
High Traverse - I really don't think that blueringworm is sufficiently in contact with reality to comprehend the concept of reputable sources. Either that, or he truly is an idiot, and maybe we should feel sorry for him.

Nope.

People on both sides of my family fought in a war to clear this planet of Fascists. Some became casualties, so no mercy on this prick or any of his buddies - keep hitting him with facts and hope that at least one sticks long enough to awaken a sense of decency in his sick little mind.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
blueringworm: How did you like the definition of insanity I located for you? It came from a reputable source, so look it up.

Like Occam's Razor, it is not absolute. If that was the case, many of our current (and past) inventions would have never come to be. Any electrical engineer will tell you that they initially fail to foresee certain things and they have to add revisions (rev's) to their designs. Even initial designs fail, but they persevere and tweak, and find perfection. Sure, they're doing things a bit differently. But there are instances where doing the exact same thing is required to understand what is wrong.

Occam's Razor is the same way. Sometimes it's not the most obvious entity that benefits that is guilty.

You have to look at things as they are and how they come at you. I do failure analysis for a living and sometimes there are situations that don't make sense in a logical manner, non-obvious failures, that are only revealed when everything else that is obvious is removed.

Sometimes you have to boil sh#t down to the un-obvious.



So when are you going to take my advice about alerting the FBI, CIA, etc. about this spectacular conspiracy? Oh yeah - they started laughing so hard when you called that they couldn't hold on the phone long enough to get your name so that they could find out where to send your medal for saving the U.S. from this spectacularly well-organized assault upon your helpless nation.

The authorities are on this, they just don't talk about it. The whole McCarthy thing. They dare not get ridiculed like I do. But they're watching. I guarantee it!

They only difference is I don't really give a f*#k about the ridicule. Not really.

It you want to have an honest discussion, just stop the slander, and I'll talk to you. You, however, seem hell-bent on proving your apparent superiority by calling me names. FYI, that's a sign of weakness. It's projection.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
Please answer my questions.
I am truly curious about the source of your concerns.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
So please help me understand.
Who are these Communists? What nationality are they? Which Communist Party do they owe allegiance to? Why is the FBI not alerting us? Is Snowden a Communist? Chelsea Manning?

Damnit, Fred, are you reading ALL of my posts? I laid this out before.

Other than the Communist Party USA (CPUSA), most recognize they have to call themselves something else to get any credence. 'Progressive' is the latest, but most progressives are too uneducated in communist philosophy to realize that they're following, almost to a bullet-point, the words of communists. Usually the younger progressives.

Obama falls into this category, but he knows he's a neo-Marxist as I call them. The Saul Alinsky crowd are pretty much all neo-Marxists.

The CLintons were Fabian Socialists. Not quite as bad, which may explain the rift between the Obamas and the CLintons. Fabian Socialists can also be described as "Sophists". People who speak eloquently, but just to bullshit and confuse you. They sound really intellectual and compassionate, but they are bullshitting you.

The bottom line, as I said before, is that I really don't care about the labels. There are many. I look at what people do and the policies they seek to employ.

Judge a person by the quality of their character, but more importantly, by their actions and the policies they pursue.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:10pm PT
What a bunch of bs. Total nonsense. Verbal flatulence.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
'Progressive' is the latest, but most progressives are too uneducated in communist philosophy to realize that they're following, almost to a bullet-point, the words of communists. Usually the younger progressives.
Balderdash

I'm a well educated Progressive and damned well know the difference between my beliefs and Socialism and Marxism, let alone Communism.
Communism and Socialism are not equivalent and never have been.

My Father had been a Fabian Socialist (a real life "card carrying" English one) in his youth and he loathed Communists. He was one of the most decent, intelligent and well educated men you'd ever meet. I know a Socialist when I see one.
The Clintons are Fabian Socialists? Yet you claim you don't like labels.
Please tell us what evil Fabian Socialist beliefs the Clintons have so you can make the label stick.

Gotta love the label "Sophists". As if that were a political orthodoxy.
Obama a semi-Marxist? Good god man, get a grip. Just because he was a "community organizer" for poor blacks in Chicago?
How about Robert Reich, speaking of Clinton fellow travelers? What's your label for him?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Bluering? High Traverse posted this information yesterday, about how your FBI-agent Communist-book author had been too-paranoid even for the 1960's FBI (which was seriously paranoid about Commies) and even the LDS Church.


Jul 18, 2014 - 11:32am PT

Skousen
See bluering top of previous page.

end times prophecy

A book by Skousen on end times prophecy, The Cleansing of America, was published by Valor Publishing Group in 2010, four years after his death

Skousen had been Salt Lake chief of police for several years and then was sacked by the new mayor J. Braken Lee. Skousen supporters claimed it was a political witch hunt but actually most of the people of Salt Lake City were pretty tired of his over the top policing and huge police budget.
In return:

Skousen supporters protested the abrupt firing by disrupting a city council meeting[14] and planting burning crosses on Lee's lawn.
became too whacko for responsible organizations.

He also served as Field Director for the American Security Council, but his increasing paranoia resulted in his abrupt termination in 1962.
Skousen was a former FBI agent. Finally the FBI had enough of his antics:

A 1962 FBI memo described Skousen as affiliating with an "extreme right-wing" group which was promoting "anticommunism for obvious financial purposes".[3] Skousen authored a pamphlet titled The Communist Attack on the John Birch Society, characterizing criticism of the Society as incipient communism.
So Skousen accused the 1962 FBI of being incipient Communists?

In 1970, the LDS Church was under considerable attack for its refusal to ordain blacks into its priesthood. In response, Skousen penned an article entitled "The Communist Attack on the Mormons," in which he accused critics of "distorting the religious tenet of the Church regarding the Negro and blowing it up to ridiculous proportions" and of serving as Communist dupes.
Your hero Skousen firmly believed there was a Communist behind every bush. Even the conservative
By 1979 the Mormon Church had finally had enough of him

Skousen had support among many LDS people in the 1960s and early 1970s. By 1979, that enthusiasm had spilled over into individuals promoting Skousen seminars inside local LDS church buildings and meetings. The First Presidency issued a letter against promoting Skousen in LDS wards and stakes


The Naked Communist is a 1958 book by an ex FBI agent, United States author political theorist Cleon Skousen.

The author posits and seeks to describe a geopolitical strategy by which the MarxistLeninist Soviet Union was attempting to overcome and control all the governments of the world that were not members of the Communist bloc.
As I've said before, indeed there were Communist spies and "agents" in the US. There still are Russian agents. Just as there were and are US agents in the Soviet Union, Russia and yes, even current Germany.


LOOK OUT BLUEY!!!!
There's a Commie behind you!!!!
and she's got an AK-47!!

all quotations from Wikipedia


Bluering?

The responses from you to a long and very serious post, and very polite posts from High Traverse since then are just more bluster on your part.

Like most "true-believers" you can't even begin to accept any negative feedback about your beliefs.

I'm sorry for your (very) negative life.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
C'mon, Fred, Socialism has no relation to Communism? Socialism is the first step towards Communism, although it is not a necessary step, as evidenced in Scandanavia. They are making Socialism work, but I wouldn't want to live in a system like that.

It only works in a comfortable manner in a system that ignores other things, which is fine. They usually have no military to speak of, only works effectively in smaller, controlled countries. The have an economy that sustains itself but little else. Incapable of significant foreign trade. Which is all fine if you do it like the Scando's. It can work.

But the United Soviet Socialist Republic, the National Socialists in Germany, Venezuela, and some African countries usually end up having to pervert it into either Communism or some other form of Totalitarianism.

I said the Clintons, and Fabian Socialists, were not as bad. I just don't really like them myself. They just tend to speak from theory too much and not actual realistic problem solving. Academics who have never really worked in the real world.

Ii like people who are forthcoming in a realistic manner. And actually do what they say, and make it work the way they theorized. I like humble people, yet are intellectual. People who are real.

EDIT: Fritz, I do not trust the LDS church. If you read my previous posts, the author has turned out to be right on many fronts.

I'm not being hostile to Fred, I've met him. Nice dude. He's been to a party at my "extravagant" house in my parents' cellar.

Just having a discussion.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
blueringworm: Such a deep thinker... If the engineers you refer to DIDN'T tweak their failures until they got it right, then they would clearly BE insane.

Gee, blueringworm: so the powers that be are on side with your loathsome crap, but they're keeping it secret, eh? So I guess that you can refer us to the reputable source informing you about this historically significant fact. Or perhaps you've endangered the very survival of the United States by letting us "commies" in on the fact that the Feds are onto our galactically complex conspiracy. Right. So when can we check out all of this in the New York Times?

You're still an idiot and arsehole. Oh, yeah - and a liar as well.

By the way, it used to be the called the UNION of Soviet Socialist Republics. Ninny.

Furthermore, blueringworm I've actually struggled through a reading of Mein Kampf. Here's a summary for those with weak stomachs and/or the inability to endure the infantile thoughts of yet another deranged psychopath:

 Ignore any inconvenient facts. Keep repeating the lies until people start to believe that you're actually telling the truth.
 Jew = Slav = Communist.
 Murder anyone who isn't a full-blooded German.

That's about it. He repeated himself a LOT.

For the record, I am unaware of any major politician of the 30's who took the trouble to read this book, or they would have stopped that evil dung beetle flat the first time he steeped out of line. Especially Stalin (see above).
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
"extravagant" house in my parents' cellar.
actually in your back yard. Odd you never invited me a second time.
;-)
And bluering/Steve is in fact a decent guy.
Just has rather odd political notions. As I'm sure he also thinks of me.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
Gee, blueringworm: so the powers that be are on side with your loathsome crap, but they're keeping it secret, eh? So I guess that you can refer us to the reputable source informing you about this historically significant fact. Or perhaps you've blown the whole thing by letting us "commies" in on the fact that the Feds are onto our galactically complex conspiracy. Right. So when can we check out all of this in the New York Times?

I already gave you the data you refuse to look at. Go back. The MSM will never cover this because they were in on much it. It makes them money to run porn, sensationalism, etc...

Venona Project, Communist Manifesto. It has been declassified.

Ask YOURSELF why this isn't picked up by the MSM.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Fred, I haven't had a similar party since. But maybe we'll do it again, or hit the CRSP stones together. That'd be cool. Discussions are way better in person. But when I climb I'm more focused on the job at hand.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
when I climb I'm more focused on the job at hand.

Yes you are. How many Heineken are at hand, anyway?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
Blueringworm: What's an MSM?

You haven't posted a single statement by a reputable spokesman since you started this thread. I'm still waiting.

Have you taken the time to look up the word "paranoia" in the dictionary? Your psychiatrist would surely advise you to do so immediately.
jstan

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
Socialism is the first step towards Communism, although it is not a necessary step
BR

Breathing is the first step toward communism and it is necessary.

Well, maybe not.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
The CLintons were Fabian Socialists

This may be the funniest sentence ever written. If someone said that to me over dinner I'd spit my wine out, for sure. What silliness.

Someone is doing a bad Newt Gingrich impersonation.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
Blueringworm: What's an MSM?

Are you new to news media? MSM=Main Stream Media....or ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
The CLintons were Fabian Socialists


This may be the funniest sentence ever written

Do you realize that this totally negates anything else you'll ever put into context?

Funniest sentence EVER written? Really? And you people call me names? I won't call you an idiot, but you should choose better words and use them in better context.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
bluering posted
Are you new to news media? MSM=Main Stream Media....or ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN.

Interesting that the most watched network wasn't on that list.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Bluering.

You do have to remember that you are one of our beloved

Village Idiot posteurs,



and

on nights like this,

perhaps,


you like??


being??


an attention whore?


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 09:03pm PT

Interesting that the most watched network wasn't on that list.


I left them out intentionally. They seem to be the only honest players. They are in a different class, not worth of MSM status.

MSM is a badge of dis-honor, not popularity. FOX stands alone.

The Daily Mail out of the UK does good stuff too.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
FOX stands alone.

I think you've finally, after all these years, posted something that no one will disagree with.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
So now you're channeling Glenn Beck for our benefit.

Oh please, professor bluering, tell me more. Wow, MSM explained! I hadn't hear that before.

And yes, Fox stands alone. Like a far off distant planet.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
I left them out intentionally. They seem to be the only honest players. They are in a different class, not worth of MSM status.

MSM is a badge of dis-honor, not popularity. FOX stands alone.

The Daily Mail out of the UK does good stuff too.


Obvious troll is obvious.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
This threads been going 6 years and still no commie takeover. Any day now?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
Don't you see? This thread is proof they HAVE taken over.
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
didn't read ONE post. The fact that this is the number 2 post on supertopo is outing idiots
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
bluering: we've already established that every word you've posted is either a lie, or else unattributed paranoid allegations from yourself or your fascist buddies.

Fox news is objective? That's got to be the most hilarious crap you've posted to date.

I'd like to think that I speak for most of the posters here when I say that I couldn't give a flying f*#k about your opinions - you are incapable of expressing a single comment that any rational commentator would agree with.

Remember to look under your bed before going to sleep. Fox news has reminded us that there's often a commie hiding there & they wait until we're asleep so they can whisper in our ears and brainwash us with quotes from Das Kapital.

On the positive side, I feel a glimmer of hope for the future to note that almost every one of your countrymen is still capable of recognizing fascist crap for what it is.

Just once, blueringworm, offer an amazing fact that can be verified by someone who isn't wearing a swastika brassard.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
bluering: we've already established that every word you've posted is either a lie, or else unattributed paranoid allegations from yourself or your fascist buddies.

Fox news is objective? That's got to be the most hilarious crap you've posted to date.

I'd like to think that I speak for most of the posters here when I say that I couldn't give a flying f*#k about your opinions - you are incapable of expressing a single comment that any rational commentator would agree with.

Remember to look under your bed before going to sleep. Fox news has reminded us that there's often a commie hiding there & they wait until we're asleep so they can whisper in our ears and brainwash us with quotes from Das Kapital.

On the positive side, I feel a glimmer of hope for the future to note that almost every one of your countrymen is still capable of recognizing fascist crap for what it is.

Just once, blueringworm, offer an amazing fact that can be verified by someone who isn't wearing a swastika brassard.

Interesting that you perpetuate 'Bush-tyle Fascism', while you deny the opposite.

Conspiracy?

Only you can be right, or correct. I am full of sh#t. Who has the blinders on?

That is fine. It's still a free country. Have fun!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
No, Ghost, he just seems phony.

Wears too much religion on his shoulder. And as a religious dude myself, he seems to USE it too much.

Just the way I see it...
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
BBC, most watched...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 19, 2014 - 04:49am PT
bluering posted
Interesting that you perpetuate 'Bush-tyle Fascism', while you deny the opposite.


The fact that you think facism is the "opposite" of communism illustrates that you either don't understand them or you don't understand what "opposite" means.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2014 - 07:20am PT
What I meant, HDDJ, is that if you're going to think of Bush as a fascist, you have to look at the other side of the aisle and call most progressives, pinkos.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:12am PT
Communism is just another religion founded on faith in a fictional reality.




It's the religion responsible for more death, poverty and suffering than all others combined.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:21am PT
I think this thread might be the most stupid thing on the internet.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:34am PT
94 million deaths in the 20th century.

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/20th-century-death/



And that's not counting the ones from failed economic and agricultural policies that produced famine.

Add those in (47 million) and the total body count is a staggering 141 million deaths.

No other religion comes close even with a head start of a few millennia.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Randisi- That is very good advice. If people want to believe nonsense, so be it. It doesn't affect me unless I let it.

Arguing on the internet is a fools errand.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:34am PT
Arguing on the internet is a fools errand.

Wait, I thought that's why it was invented?

Randisi, capitalism does have its shortcomings but it pales in comparison to
Stalin's forced collectivization and persecution of the kulaks which directly
eliminated up to 10 million.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:40am PT
Perhaps that is putting too fine a point on it? ;-/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:42am PT
Reilly..Petra's at 6 tonite...? Beet salad...! rj
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2014 - 09:44am PT
Well damn!

That website says it, so it must be true.

Does it show the ravages of capitalism over the past 250 years?

Anyway, I'm going to take my own advice and not argue with people who won't listen.

The ravages of capitalism...I wonder what that could do for Africa and Central America. People living in utter poverty and disease will not be lifted up by Socialism (like Zimbabwe, formerly productive Rhodesia) or Communism.

The issue on our southern border should be evidence that people hate corrupt socialist gov'ts. It's especially bad in 2nd 3rd world cultures. It turns to despotism.

Capitalism, despite what you think, is individualistic. It's not corporate. Sure, our country has gotten out of control to some degree, but it's nothing that can't be cured.

Our capitalist republic has been corrupted for other reasons, and one of them is greed at the expense of fairness. There are many reasons why. Many have to do with politicians and lobbyists f*#king us dry with no regard for the future health of our Republic.

So, I fell all your pain there, and I agree. But the answer is NOT to reverse direction towards socialism. The answer is to reel in the cheaters, the lobbyists, and the corruption.

The problem is that Congress (both sides for the most part) is in on the game. We need to elect real people who actually give a f*#k about the welfare of our Republic, and are not just in it for the money.

Some of them know this and they will lie to you until they're elected. They'll claim all sorts of bullshit about being humble, man of the people, or whatever...

Listen carefully to their rhetoric. And look at their pasts. Were they actually working people, or just gov't tools or academicians. These people have no clue how to get work done. Lawyers are the worst.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:45am PT

Communism in theory is not about state control

Well if that is true then how would those who don't want to participate be
brought into the 'fold'? Gentle persuasion?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:57am PT
Randisi, yer preaching to the chorus, so to speak. As a Russian Studies
major I am quite able to differentiate the theory from the practical. ;-)
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:04am PT
Communism is the exploitation of man, by man.

Capitalism is exactly the reverse.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:07am PT

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2014 - 11:19am PT
Communism is the exploitation of man, by man.

Capitalism is exactly the reverse.


Sounds really cute and smart like some commie professor taught that to you.

Nobody in a capitalist society HAS to submit to exploitation. Quite the opposite actually. We take care of losers who refuse to work.

(Which we need to fix up a bit).

And since when is work, "exploitation"? I voluntarily choose my lifestyle and employment. Ever here of the old saying, "It's a free country"?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 19, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
blueringworm, you twisted jackass - Fascism - Extreme right wing totalitarian system or VIEWS, as originally prevailing in Italy (1922-43). Source: The Oxford Dictionary of Current English.

Right: - political group or section favouring conservatism, conservatives collectively. See above for source.

These are known as FACTS: (definition: thing that is known to be true or to exist; truth, reality; thing assumed as basis for argument). See above for source.

Now do you see why I have suggested that you seek psychiatric care for your paranoia? (definition: mental disorder with delusions of grandeur, persecution, etc.; abnormal tendency to suspect and mistrust others). See above for source.

So how did you like my comments about Mein Kampf? How about your views on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

I can't thing of a single word that I have posted here that can't be verified from reputable sources. Are you accusing me of espousing extreme left wing opinions? Perhaps you could inform me as to which ones I have stated. I could use a laugh.

Gee whiz. I thought that most of what I've posted indicates that I don't subscribe to ANY views that could be termed extreme. I will, however admit that I have only contempt for the war criminals like the Bush family and their co-defendants.

I'll offer you something for free: If you agree that the United States should agree to respect the authority of the International Criminal Court, including other international human rights organizations (which the rest of the civilized world has already done), then I'll try to back off on the Bushes.

Dubya's particularly hard to let go of, though. When he wasn't snorting coke or bankrupting every business his father bought for him (including the United States), he was busy becoming possibly the only cringing coward in the history of the USAF. In case this FACT is over your head, almost EVERY fighter pilot was fighting tooth an nail to get a combat posting to Viet Nam. Dubya, however, was sitting around laughing at these guys and getting wasted back in the safety of the States.

TGT - what in hell is wrong with you? I don't think a single person has posted a single word on this thread that indicates admiration of the murder of innocents.

Since you didn't bother reading my comment about the (I assume) Chinese execution, here's two questions that I hope that you have the integrity to answer:

-Are you so concerned about the sanctity of human life that you are spending all your spare times attempting to ban capital punishment in the U.S., who rates near the top of the planet for legalized executions?

 Are you so distressed about Chinese human rights abuses that you and blueringworm are at this very moment lobbying Fox "news" to organize a boycott of all trade links with your nation's biggest trading partner? Oh - I forgot. The U.S. is so heavily indebted to China that the U.S. would be an instant third world country if those guys demanded immediate payment of those financial obligations.

blueringworm: nobody's perfect, but your typos are showing.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

Merriam-Webster makes no mention of right-wingers in their definition, only despots.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 19, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
blueringworm: I would imagine that most intelligent linguists would agree that the language is called English for a reason, and Oxford is arguably the most prestigious university on planet Earth.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha.

Oh, yeah - are you and TGT so lost in your deluded super "patriot" frenzy that neither one of you can actually respond to my last posting? Factually.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 19, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
Communism and Islam as religions suffer from the same delusion.

(There are just to damn many of those unbelievers in the way of achieving utopia/paradise)

in the end the true believers turn to murder no mater what their original intention was.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 19, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
including christians, i.e. the crusades
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Jul 19, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
If the Christians of today are responsible for the Crusades then the modern day Democrats are responsible for slavery.....

It's a bullshit argument and not worthy of discussion....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
Do you people understand what the Crusades was a response to?

Look it up an we'll discuss. (it's starting all over again too, but not from our fruition. Like the Crusades...it's the Islamists).
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 19, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
blueringworm: I guess when you and your lunatic clones haven't noticed is that not once have any of you presented a single argument that is supported by a respectable reference.

What I HAVE noticed is that when I presented a condensed version of Mein Kampf for those with weak stomachs or an inability to stomach the repetitive ravings of a psychotic (yet, horrifyingly enough, highly charismatic) imbecile, this piece of genetic garbage mentioned an alarmingly effective set of recommendations for turning an entire nation into mass murderers. As a matter of fact, he invented the big lie, which goes this way:

-Ignore factual criticism.
-Keep repeating the same lies until people begin to accept them as facts.

Worked like a hot damn & continues to do so today, hence the Tea Party. By the way, who allowed Fascists the uncontested right to refer to themselves as patriots?

Throughout this thread, there have been several of your opponents who have made no secret of their progressive leanings. NONE of them have indicated a mindless adherence to any flavour of Communist dogma.

I will REPEAT yet again: I have lost ancestors to Stalin's terror, and am an adherent to no "ism" whatsoever. Also, I, like anyone who lives to the left of your fascist fairyland, am perfectly aware that almost without exception when communists take control after a revolution, the first people to be liquidated are the progressives. What I'm trying to say here is that we out here on the left have every reason to be even more vigilant about communist plots than fascists like you and your buddies.

Then again, the next time you attempt to accuse anyone with a crumb of decency in their character of being a commie, I repeat that I'm astonished that when you claim that the CIA, FBI, Homeland Security, and all the other intelligence agencies are on side with your delusional crap, I'm surprised that they haven't dragged your worthless ass down to Guantanamo Bay to find out why you alerted us horrible people to the "fact" that they're onto our historically spectacular plan to put freedom-loving rocket scientists like yourself into chains. I haven't the least doubt that letting the cat out of the bag like this qualifies you as a traitor to the United States of America.

So... based upon the repeated postings of TGT and yourself, when can we expect you steely-eyed patriots to organize a boycott of all trade with China, along with an end to the death penalty in the U.S.?

Come on, at least answer the above. You've already used it as a lame justification for whatever the hell you're trying to sell us. Be a man and show some integrity for once.

Integrity: (definition from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English) honesty; wholeness; soundness. (My words) - the last two citations refer to its use when referring to things like buildings, etc.

Another FACT for you, you toad.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
in the end the true believers turn to murder no mater what their original intention was
I'm not going to argue that point.
So does it apply to Evangelical Christians? They are as much "true believers" as some Muslims and Jews.
Interesting isn't it that the 3 major God believing religions can be called "true believers" with some justification.
Doesn't seem to apply so neatly to Buddhists and Hindus and certainly NOT to agnostics and atheists.

Communism is nothing like a religion (as was claimed earlier by TGT).
It is a social and political philosophy.
If you knew your history, you'd know that the first thing the Russian Communists did was destroy the authority of the Church and repress religion. Actually, I'm pretty sure you knew that but it didn't fit with your demagoguery.
A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. See also Marxism.
The most familiar form of communism is that established by the Bolsheviks after the Russian Revolution of 1917, and it has generally been understood in terms of the system practiced by the former Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe, in China since 1949, and in some developing countries such as Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea. Communism embraced a revolutionary ideology in which the state would wither away after the overthrow of the capitalist system. In practice, however, the state grew to control all aspects of communist society.

Fascism on the other hand worked hand in hand with complicity by the Lutheran (Germany) and Catholic (Germany and Italy) churches, and the Shinto "religion" in Japan.
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (192243), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach

demagogue:
A political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 04:43am PT
So... based upon the repeated postings of TGT and yourself, when can we expect you steely-eyed patriots to organize a boycott of all trade with China, along with an end to the death penalty in the U.S.?

I already have a family-based boycott of Chinese goods. The wife and I always look a product labels and buy non-Chinese goods where possible.

The death penalty? I support it in almost all cases.

As for your obsession with reporting communists to the 'authorities', it is not illegal to have those beliefs. It is fundamentally un-American based on our traditional values, but it's a free country and you are entitled to have those beliefs.

I'm not going to argue that point.
So does it apply to Evangelical Christians? They are as much "true believers" as some Muslims and Jews.
Interesting isn't it that the 3 major God believing religions can be called "true believers" with some justification.
Doesn't seem to apply so neatly to Buddhists and Hindus and certainly NOT to agnostics and atheists.

Well, the only only people that kill in the name of their religion are Islamists (not all Muslims). And as I said before, the Crusades were a response to an Islamic caliphate that sought to conquer southern Europe.

Communism is nothing like a religion (as was claimed earlier by TGT).
It is a social and political philosophy.
If you knew your history, you'd know that the first thing the Russian Communists did was destroy the authority of the Church and repress religion. Actually, I'm pretty sure you knew that but it didn't fit with your demagoguery.


I'll have to disagree here somewhat. Communism is a substitute for religion. "Religion is the opiate of the masses", was once said, and that is why it had to be destroyed. It held people together.

Communists made the State their religion. Don't believe in some phony fairy tale of a man in the sky, believe in the State and our dear leader, he will give you all you need in the here and now.

Fascism on the other hand worked hand in hand with complicity by the Lutheran (Germany) and Catholic (Germany and Italy) churches, and the Shinto "religion" in Japan.

Well, that's arguable. I would not say the church worked "hand in hand" with fascist leaders. Sure, the leaders called themselves Catholics, or whatever, but their deeds were political.

Timmy McVeigh was raised as a Christian, but he did not subscribe to the faith. He was irreligious, a pagan. He did not kill in the name of God. He killed because of political ideology.

Hitler, Hito, and the Spanish fascists killed in the name of the State, or the Emperor, not God. As did Stalin. And Mao, and Castro.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:59am PT
Dubya, modern day Christian crusader:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

Gawd told him to git 'er done down there in the shitkickig north 40.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 05:10am PT
I'm not sure I'd believe a second-hand account from a Palestinian leader. But GW was a spiritual dude.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:13am PT
He was a spiritual man, and a stupid man as well. A very toxic mix. Spiritualism should have stayed his hand when it came to smashing a country and its population.

Try this one out:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1184546/Donald-Rumsfelds-holy-war-How-President-Bushs-Iraq-briefings-came-quotes-Bible.html
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:17am PT
Bluering wrote "The death penalty? I support it in almost all cases."

So you support the murder of innocent people then? Because of course you are aware that not everyone that is convicted and executed is guilty of the crime.
My, my, wonder what God is going to have to say about that. Never mind, He's actually pretty down with killing. Promotes it even. It's His wayward son who's against it, but WTF does he know?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 05:24am PT
SC, I think that's a stretch. He wasn't using a Crusade to go into war, but using faith to keep our soldiers strong while fighting a war.

It's very clear why we went to war, whether you agree or not, but it was not because of religion.

EDIT:
So you support the murder of innocent people then? Because of course you are aware that not everyone that is convicted and executed is guilty of the crime.

I said, in almost all cases.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:29am PT
Sorry bluering but you can't have the death penalty without murdering innocent people as well. The justice system is far from perfect.
When are you death penalty advocates going to get that?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 05:36am PT
The justice system is far from perfect.

True, and it never will be. But there are cases that are "open and shut" cases. Besides, they rarely execute people anymore...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:59am PT
bluering wrote:
If you did everything yourself, you get to decide what to do with the goods.

There you have it, bluering is a communist!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 09:08am PT
If you say so, Gary, go ahead and run with that...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:13am PT
If you think a person gets to keep the full reward of his work, then you're by definition a marxist.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 09:25am PT
If you think a person gets to keep the full reward of his work, then you're by definition a marxist.


Only under the criteria that you had previously mentioned. It's not a blanket rule.

What you had laid out is essentially an independent farmer. That has nothing to do with the political ideology of Karl Marx. What you had laid out was independence and personal freedom. Marx wanted State control.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 09:51am PT
Randisi, I apologize, you're correct. But what Marx advocated was a total pipe-dream. It is utterly un-workable except on a small commune, and even then a hierarchy would evolve.

You cannot change inherent human behavior. Especially amongst a working group of individuals. His theories sound really nice and all, but always fail.

Isn't it ironic that his anti-State, anti-establishment theories have historically produced the opposite in practice.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 20, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
And here I always thought "Tail Gunner" Senator Joe McCarthy had been dead for years.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
Only under the criteria that you had previously mentioned. It's not a blanket rule.

No, it's not a blanket rule, ONLY THE F*#KIN FUNDAMENTAL PREMISE OF MARXISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bluring, everything you know is wrong. You've been fed lie after lie by the MSM, and believe every word of it, even as you dismiss the MSM.

I think that's called doublethink.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
No, it's not a blanket rule, ONLY THE F*#KIN FUNDAMENTAL PREMISE OF MARXISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is where you pinkos get it wrong. You want to apply it broadly.

If I work for Apple and make f*#king Iphones, I don't get the money from selling it. I get a wage I agreed to when I signed up to work there.

Working for somebody else is entirely different than doing everything yourself.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
blueringworm: so we're supposed to get outraged about the Chinese executing their citizens, but it's OK for the U.S. to do so? I'll let you look up the word "hypocrite" all by yourself. Also, perhaps you can give me a lengthy list of the millionaires who have been executed in the United States within recent memory just so I can admire how equally citizens are treated under the law.

You started this moronic thread, so AGAIN I ask you why you're not asking your masters to organize a boycott of all Chinese goods. If your twisted beliefs were confined to your family circle, they wouldn't bother me much, but unfortunately you're actually attempting to sell paranoia as fact to the people participating in this forum. Oh, yeah - your computer and/or most of its components are probably made in China.

I've noticed what happened when masses of hate-fuelled morons used their "patriotic" delusions to justify a mass murder spree in Rwanda. The kind of sick poison you're attempting to pass off as fact comes from the same mind set, and is certainly capable of producing the same results in the U.S.

So, let me get this straight. It's OK to be one of the maybe twelve real commies in the U.S., because it's a free country, but it's not OK for them to do whatever their political beliefs motivate them to do? BUT (your words) the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security are carefully monitoring their actions.

Why is the U.S. security establishment monitoring the actions of any of their citizens utilizing their right to free speech?

So, speaking of the war crimes committed by your masters, you have blandly denied the facts that the entire civilized world accepts. With this in mind, I repeat: when are you going to demand that the U.S. agree to participate in the International Criminal Court and other international human rights tribunals? Oh - maybe it's because you know that both Bush Presidents and most of their cabinets would be safely behind bars by now and the billions that they stole from the U.S. taxpayers during their murder sprees returned to the public trust.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Islamic caliphate that sought to conquer southern Europe.
The first Crusade, perhaps; wasn't it to "liberate" the holy land, principally Palestine? Possibly the first major religious war of liberation. Subsequent Crusades were for a wide variety of reasons. Historians can't decide whether there were 5 or 9 Crusades.

By the first Crusade, the Saracens/Muslims had already conquered most of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain), the Balkans by the time of the 1st Crusade. They had conquered all of N and E Africa, Italy, Greece, and Anatolia (Turkey). They were only bounded on the East at the Euphrates River by the competing Sasanian (Persian) Empire (Zoroastrian + others, not Islamic).
The Byzantine and Sasanian empires each had a cultured civilization going and were way ahead of northern Europeans in art, philosophy, government, commerce, architecture, astronomy and mathematics.
One could argue that from their point of view, the Muslims were just re-conquering peoples and lands they had previously controlled. Remember who conquered Rome? Visigoths and Franks. Primitive rabble even by the standards of the times. The Byzantine Empire had reconquered what is now Italy and re-civilized it by 555 AD.
Then they turned east and conquered the Sasanids and took everything to Herat Afghanistan.

Were they warlike?
Who WASN'T in the 11th century? The Normans had conquered England by the time the Pope called for the 1st Crusade in 1095 or so.
The Europeans have fought among themselves ever since they crawled out of the primordial mud. They stupidly followed the Pope and went off to the holy land instead of building up their own civilizations.
Religious war was one of the many things the Founding Fathers had in mind when they separated church and state.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
blueringworm: so we're supposed to get outraged about the Chinese executing their citizens, but it's OK for the U.S. to do so?


I never expressed outrage at the Chinese penal system, but now that you ask, it is a bit archaic. Conflating our system with theirs is pretty f*#king stupid though. Due process?

With this in mind, I repeat: when are you going to demand that the U.S. agree to participate in the International Criminal Court and other international human rights tribunals?

Our Constitution dictates how we execute laws, not a bunch of pinkos in the Hague.

EDIT: Fred Yes there were multiple Crusades. Since biblical times. I just don't like when the word 'Crusades' is mentioned, immediately blame gets pushed onto Christians.

The Holy Land has been a war zone forever. Probably will continue to be that way. Look at today's headlines.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
This is where you pinkos get it wrong. You want to apply it broadly.

No kidding! Marxists want everyone to keep what they earn, worker and capitalist alike. For some reason, you think the majority of the fruit of your labor belongs to some freeloader. That's all well and good, I think different, however. I think those freeloaders on Wall Street should earn their keep like everyone else.

You enjoy your servitude.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
HT, the Byzantines weren't Muslim. Islam didn't start until 610.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
Chamonix is a commune. Bam!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
blueringworm: Nice work cherry picking my question. To save me some time looking up your earlier posts, weren't you the first guy to post the photo of the (I assume) Chinese execution? Perhaps it was your buddy TGT. My mistake, apparently. Now answer my goddamn question: how many millionaires have been executed lately? Obviously, not the Bush clan or any of their co-conspirators, or are those arseholes billionaires and hence exempt from prosecution for any crime?

So the pinkos have taken over every globally respected justice tribunal? Perhaps you can offer some proof of this crap - keeping in mind that FOX news has zero credibility among objective sources, so try to cite neutral sources for your lies.

Here's a FACT for you, which has been reported by the Daily Mail. You have earlier claimed it to be a responsible source of information. Earlier, I asked you for information about how much wealth in the U.S. is controlled by the top 1% of the population. Of course, you ignored my inquiry. Here's the answer, which is... wait for it...

37%.

This number has also been confirmed by that famous pinko organization known as the European Central Bank, and among MANY others, by G.W. Domhoff of the University of California Santa Cruz (who pegs the number at "only" 35.4%).

It is obvious that you believe that hard-working citizens of the U.S. aren't entitled to a reasonable share of the wealth that they produce.
I sure can see why you believe that capitalism is such a fair way to run an economy.

I'm getting carpal tunnel syndrome responding to your unsupported, paranoid allegations.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
HT, the Byzantines weren't Muslim. Islam didn't start until 610.
Gary, thanks for catching that, I really should know better. The Byzantine empire was Christian/Greek Orthodox and slowly picked apart (participating in the Crusades didn't help) by the Seljuks (Persian Muslims) and they were supplanted when Constantinople was sacked by the Ottoman Muslim Turks in the 15th century.
The First Crusade was actually against the Seljuks who controlled all of the holy land by that time.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Our Constitution dictates how we execute laws, not a bunch of pinkos in the Hague.

That's fine within your borders, but on the world stage the US should be held accountable for criminal behavior. So far, it never has been, because as G. Bush senior opined after bombing civilians in Panama, "the US doesn't have to apologize for anything".
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
When we get back to the subject of what religion killed the most people-----Google can supply the details that our Christian God was the rally cry for more deaths than any other religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

Both sides in WW I & WW II knew God was on their side.

Since we are on the subject of the "Crusades"

The 4th Crusade against the Islamic Empire, stopped along the way to take out the Eastern Orthodox Christian Capital Constantinople.


The Sack of Constantinople or Siege of Constantinople (also called the Fourth Crusade) occurred in 1204; it destroyed parts of the capital of the Byzantine Empire as the city was captured by Western European and Venetian Crusaders. After the capture the Latin Empire was founded and Baldwin of Flanders was crowned Emperor Baldwin I of Constantinople in the Hagia Sophia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(1204);



So???? How many people have been killed by the Christian Faith?


http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php

Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)


Ancient Pagans


------------------------------------------------------------------------







As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.

Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]

Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."

In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]


Mission


------------------------------------------------------------------------







Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]

Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]

15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]

16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]


Crusades (1095-1291)


------------------------------------------------------------------------







First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]

Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]

9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]

Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]

After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]

Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]

Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."

The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]

Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". [WW41]

Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]

Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]

Crusades (1095-1291)

Estimated totals:

Wertham: 1,000,000

Charles Mackay, Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the
Madness of Crowds (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html]

Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 5,000,000


Individual Events:

Davies: Crusaders killed up to 8,000 Jews in Rhineland

Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 1,000 Jewish women in
Rhineland comm. suicide to avoid the mob, 1096.

Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, v.5, 6

1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea].

Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems


1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred.

50,000 Pilgrims died of disease.

1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.

Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k.

Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks

Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.

1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre.

Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred.

[TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.]


Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/]

Jaffa: 20,000 Christians massacred, 1197


Sorokin estimates that French, English & Imperial German Crusaders lost
a total of 3,600 in battle.

1st C (1096-99): 400

2nd C (1147-49): 750

3rd C (1189-91): 930

4th C (1202-04): 120

5th C (1228-29): 600

7th C (1248-54): 700


James Trager, The People's Chronology (1992)

1099: Crusaders slaughter 40,000 inhabs of Jerusalem. Dis/starv reduced
Crusaders from 300,000 to 60,000.

1147: 2nd Crusades begins with 500,000. "Most" lost to
starv./disease/battle.

1190: 500 Jews massacred in York.

1192: 3rd Crusade reduced from 100,000 to 5,000 through famine, plagues and
desertions in campaign vs Antioch.

1212: Children's Crusade loses some 50,000.

[TOTAL: Just in these incidents, it appears the Europeans lost around
650,000.]




TOTAL: When I take all the individual death tolls listed here, weed out
the duplicates, fill in the blanks, apply Occam ("Pluralitas non est
ponenda sine necessitate"), etc. I get a very rough total of 1 M
deaths in the Crusades.







Heretics and Atheists


------------------------------------------------------------------------







Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]

Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]

Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic
neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]

Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]


After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324.
[WW183]

Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]

Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).

Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]

John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]

Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]

University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]


Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy.


Witches


------------------------------------------------------------------------







From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.

In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
[WV]

Incomplete list of documented cases:
The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times


Religious Wars


------------------------------------------------------------------------







15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]

1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]

1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]
Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch hats floated by." [SH216]

1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]

17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]

17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]

17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]


Jews


------------------------------------------------------------------------







Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians.Number of Jews slain unknown.

In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]

694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]

1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.

1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.
[MM470-476]

1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]





(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.


Native Peoples


------------------------------------------------------------------------







Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.

Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]

On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]


Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]

In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]

On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]

The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]

The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]

What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]

The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]

"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]

Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).

"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
[SH95]


Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of America.





Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]

In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no
choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]

On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War." The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.

When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]

So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].

Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)

Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]

Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by Spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]

The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]

Other tribes were to follow the same path.

Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]

Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]

In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]

In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]

To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about
30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.

All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.

A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.

In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.


More Glorious Events in U.S. History





Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]



Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]





By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'."
[SH244]


20th Century Church Atrocities


------------------------------------------------------------------------







Catholic extermination camps
Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar -
orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did
nothing to prevent them. [MV]



Catholic terror in Vietnam
In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters; the Viet Minh; - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:


"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."


Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of Buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - ; mostly in street riots ; - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
When we get back to the subject of what religion killed the most people-----Google can supply the details that our Christian God was the rally cry for more deaths than any other religion.

Fritz, you just don't understand. Those people -- the ones on you list who killed so many millions in the name of Christianity -- couldn't possibly have been true Christians. They were probably communists or something, and just used "Christianity" as a convenient cover for their evil ways.

True Christians have never killed anybody. It is a religion of love, unlike all those other bad religions like Islamism, Pinkoism, and Satanism which are really evil.

Okay?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
Ghost - thank you so much. It's all so clear now. I guess it explains why the Bush gang can call themselves Christians with a straight face.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
Ghost! Of course you are right (when I take a moment for prayer & self-reflectation.)

A True-Christian would never kill any-one that God had not identified as someone who needed to be killed.

I suspect that a lot of "fake-Christians" have also FAKED talking to God about who needs to be killed.

I do worry about anyone who claims to have a dialog with God.

Those people are very dangerous.

Which is why I didn't vote for Sarah Palin/John McCain.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:07pm PT
I dp worry about anyone who claims to have a dialog with God.

I worry about anyone who claims they haven't had a dialogue with God at some point.
Isn't that why we climb?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
thanks Fritz, that was horrendous...

to their credit it seems Christians were often able to go 20, sometimes even 50 years between genocides. (and thank Goddess they stopped in 1954.)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Fritz, I find it curious you start on the 4th Crusade and not mention the 3 prior ones.

Also you mention that WWI And WWII we all knew God was on our side and your begin to present corpse counts of Christians throughout history.

No mention of the corpse-count of Communists, Nazis, and others? Secondly you do not differentiate between people defending themselves and those who were invading conquerors?

All sourced from Wiki and 'exchristian' sites. A bit disingenuous.

This is a pretty good site that details the overall Crusades.

http://history-world.org/crusades.htm

It's also interesting to note that the Jews and Christians coexisted pretty well overall until Muhammad showed up on the scene in 600AD. The Ottomans were kind of a different story...
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 21, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
blueringworm: Please read your last post. Are you drunk?

So I guess if the other guys are guilty of committing atrocities, it's perfectly acceptable for "Christians" to do so. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Now let's see if you are even partially in contact with reality: Has the U.S. EVER committed a war crime? I mean beside massacring nearly your entire Fist Nations population.

So what's your answer to my simple question, one that any patriotic American should be able to answer truthfully?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 21, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
Communism accounted for about 10% of all the human caused deaths in the 20th century.

90+ million!


Their apologists only retort?

They did it too.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 21, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
Jews and Christians coexisted pretty well overall until Muhammad showed up on the scene in 600AD
And then came the Crusades, Inquisition, the ghettos of Paris, London, Warsaw (all long before Hitler came along) and let's not bring up Nazi/Christian Germany again. There were almost no big cities in 18th - early 20th century Europe without Jewish ghettos.
How many Jews came the the English Colonies?
I'll give you a clue. My ancestors only got here in 1637 because they got a letter from their Anglican Bishop.

The "Christians" have always been so generous to the Jews.
and to the Muslims
and to the native North and South Americans
and to the African slaves.

So don't go on about Communists, who of course also have plenty of blood on their hands. All the "isms" are drenched in the blood of inferior races/religions.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
So I guess if the other guys are guilty of committing atrocities, it's perfectly acceptable for "Christians" to do so. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

I didn't say that, now did I. What I did say was that ever since the muzzie of the 'religion of peace show up', they're been attacking Jews/Christians ever since. Before they showed up things were relatively 'kosher'.

Has the U.S. EVER committed a war crime? I mean beside massacring nearly your entire Fist Nations population.

Certainly. We weren't first, and won't be the last. It happens in war.

So don't go on about Communists, who of course also have plenty of blood on their hands. All the "isms" are drenched in the blood of inferior races/religions.

I don't deny any of what you said. I just have to stand up when Fritz isolates the Christians. Sure, Christians did a lot of fighting back in the day, and yeah, in the name of God. But lets look at history from sources other than Wikipedia and 'exchristian'. They are clearly biased and conveniently ignore some facts of reality.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 21, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
I don't deny any of what you said. I just have to stand up when Fritz isolates the Christians. Sure, Christians did a lot of fighting back in the day, and yeah, in the name of God. But lets look at history from sources other than Wikipedia and 'exchristian'. They are clearly biased and conveniently ignore some facts of reality.

Fritz didn't isolate the Christians. He very specifically said the the sources he could find indicated that over the last millenium and a half or so more killing was done in the name of Christianity than in the name of any other religion or ism.

He didn't say that Islam wasn't responsible for millions of deaths, or communism, or Buddhism or whatever. Just that Christianity was the worst offender.

I'm certainly not saying that I believe his sources unquestioningly, but I suspect they're not far off the truth. However, if you can cite sources that show that some other ism or religion did a better job of murder, by all means cite them.

Edit: All of this is not to say I'm anti-Christian. Personally, I think Christianity is no different from any other religion.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 21, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
Bluering: There has been so much killing done in the "name of your Christian God,"

Of course I have to cite Wikipedia, vs you citing right wing blog sites, or your beloved Mormon, ex-FBI agent, anti-communist author.

One of the many bizarre Christian religious wars I have found in history is the:

Albigensian Crusade

I'll quote the Encyclopedia Britannica.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12976/Albigensian-Crusade


Albigensian Crusade, Crusade (120929) called by Pope Innocent III against the Cathari, a dualist religious movement in southern France that the Roman Catholic Church had branded heretical. The war pitted the nobility of staunchly Catholic northern France against that of the south, where the Cathari were tolerated and even enjoyed the support of the nobles. Although the Crusade did not eliminate Catharism, it eventually enabled the French king to establish his authority over the south.

Historical background

By the middle of the 12th century, control of Jerusalem and the Holy Land was no longer the only goal of the Crusades. Rather, Crusading became a special class of war called by the pope against the enemies of the faith, who were by no means confined to the Levant. Crusades continued in the Baltic region against pagans and in Spain against Muslims. Yet in the heart of Europe a more serious threat faced Christendom: heresy, which was viewed in the medieval world not as benign religious diversity but rather as a cancerous threat to the salvation of souls. It was held to be even more dangerous than the faraway Muslims, because it harmed the body of Christ from within.

The most vibrant heresy in Europe was Catharism, also known as Albigensianismfor Albi, a city in southern France where it flourished. Catharism held that the universe was a battleground between good, which was spirit, and evil, which was matter. Human beings were believed to be spirits trapped in physical bodies. The leaders of the religion, the perfect, lived with great austerity, remaining chaste and avoiding all foods that came from sexual union.

The Roman Catholic Church had attempted for years to root out the heresy from southern France, where it remained popular, particularly among the nobility. St. Dominic, who was sent to the region to preach to the people and debate the Cathar leaders, formed his Order of Preachers (Dominicans) in response to the heresy. All efforts at eradication failed, however, largely because of the tolerance of the Cathari maintained by Raymond VI of Toulouse, the greatest baron of the area, and by most secular lords in the region. Shortly after his excommunication for abetting the heretics, Raymond was implicated in the murder of a papal legate sent to investigate the situation. For Innocent III that was the final straw. In March 1208 he called for a Crusade against Raymond and the heretics of Languedoc, which began the following year.

The Crusade to 1215

The Albigensian Crusade was immensely popular in northern France because it gave pious warriors an opportunity to win a Crusade indulgence (a remission from punishment in the afterlife for sin) without traveling far from home or serving more than 40 days. During the first season the Crusaders captured Bziers in the heart of Cathar territory andfollowing the instructions of a papal legate who allegedly said, Kill them all. God will know his own, when asked how the Crusaders should distinguish the heretics from true Christiansmassacred almost the entire population of the city. With the exception of Carcassonne, which held out for a few months, much of the territory of the Albigeois surrendered to the Crusaders.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
Of course I have to cite Wikipedia, vs you citing right wing blog sites

The site I posted above seemed to be unbiased. The history-world.org site...I don't think this is a right-wing "blog".

And again you only Christian Crusades massacres with no context. The Crusades were a 2-sided conflict you know, right? Sometimes 3-sided.

EDIT:
He didn't say that Islam wasn't responsible for millions of deaths, or communism, or Buddhism or whatever. Just that Christianity was the worst offender.

And I dispute that, and do not trust sites called "exchristian" of Wiki to give me those "facts".

Here is a Christian site that disputes the figures, admittedly as biased as others, but seemingly pretty accurate;

http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Objec/G-0101.htm

2 sides to every story, eh. I'll do some research....
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
blueringworm: thanks for actually answering my question. Now, tell us how often the U.S. Government has punished your home-grown war criminals. I'll go easy on you - just the ones who committed atrocities in the last 50 years.

By the way, I find it disgusting that a human being of any political persuasion can so flippantly dismiss the reality of genocide. Clearly you have not matured enough as a man to comprehend the horror or finality of death, especially violent death.

Now, without bothering to contest your numbers for deaths under communist rule, I can't recall a single posting that indicated admiration for either Stalin or Mao, under whose rule there is no doubt that millions died. Next, I submit that these monsters were communist in name only - sort of like every psychotic arsehole in the U.S.who claims to be a Christian. Or a patriot. Or the Bush family and their buddies claiming to be members of the human race.

Pretty well everybody who is debating your fascist logic is trying to inform you that there are, as I suggested, maybe twelve real communists in the U.S. these days, and that your paranoid conspiracy fantasy is ridiculous.

There is nothing I am aware of in Marxism (the original and only variety of communism at the time) that condones the mass murder of innocents.

After Stalin died, most (if not all) of his henchmen were promptly executed by COMMUNISTS - most notably Beria, Stalin's favourite murderer.

Since the death of Stalin, I would suggest that the death toll of innocents under the capitalist policies of the U.S. (and the parade of corrupt stooges in other nations in the U.S. sphere of influence) is at the very least comparable to those of the post-Stalinist communist world. Arguably even higher.

Oh, yeah - I don't give a flying f*#k what you think. At least try to use generally accepted sources to back up your allegations.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:43am PT
Religion is the opium of the people.

Work is the curse of the drinking class.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:30am PT
Now, without bothering to contest your numbers for deaths under communist rule, I can't recall a single posting that indicated admiration for either Stalin or Mao, under whose rule there is no doubt that millions died. Next, I submit that these monsters were communist in name only - sort of like every psychotic arsehole in the U.S.who claims to be a Christian. Or a patriot. Or the Bush family and their buddies claiming to be members of the human race.

Worth repeating. Why? Cause it is so true. And I only recently figured out how to post quotes.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
from The Catholic Encyclopedia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03435a.htm
The Catharist system was a simultaneous attack on the Catholic Church and the then existing State. The Church was directly assailed in its doctrine and hierarchy. The denial of the value of oaths, and the suppression, at least in theory, of the right to punish, undermined the basis of the Christian State. But the worst danger was that the triumph of the heretical principles meant the extinction of the human race. This annihilation was the direct consequence of the Catharist doctrine, that all intercourse between the sexes ought to be avoided and that suicide or the Endura, under certain circumstances, is not only lawful but commendable. The assertion of some writers, like Charles Molinier, that Catholic and Catharist teaching respecting marriage are identical, is an erroneous interpretation of Catholic doctrine and practice. Among Catholics, the priest is forbidden to marry, but the faithful can merit eternal happiness in the married state. For the Cathari, no salvation was possible without previous renunciation of marriage. Mr. H.C. Lea, who cannot be suspected of partiality towards the Catholic Church, writes: "However much we may deprecate the means used for its (Catharism) suppression and commiserate those who suffered for conscience' sake, we cannot but admit that the cause of orthodoxy was in this case the cause of progress and civilization. Had Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to prove disastrous." (See Lea, Inquisition, I, 106.)
"...was a simultaneous attack on the Catholic Church and the then existing State."
The Church (the only true church by the way) and State were not separate. One more good reason for our 1st Amendment.

"But the worst danger was that the triumph of the heretical principles meant the extinction of the human race."
How so?
"This annihilation was the direct consequence of the Catharist doctrine, that all intercourse between the sexes ought to be avoided and that suicide or the Endura, under certain circumstances, is not only lawful but commendable"
"Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to prove disastrous."
So let's think this through: no sex, ergo the Catharists were doomed to self extinction. What disastrous threat was that to the Church-State? That they would out compete Catholicism?
Obviously enough threat to justify wiping them all out.

The essential characteristic of the Catharist faith was Dualism, i.e. the belief in a good and an evil principle, of whom the former created the invisible and spiritual universe, while the latter was the author of the material world.
Seems like a pretty good interpretation of life at the time. Life in the material world was really not a lot of fun. Unless you happened to be a Bishop or Pope surrounded by wealth and power sending your boys and men off on another crusade against the Infidel.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
Next, I submit that these monsters were communist in name only - sort of like every psychotic arsehole in the U.S.who claims to be a Christian.

What? Mao, Pol pot, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Castro/Che were all avowed commies. including the little Ill in North Korea. Most of the South Asians learned their trade in France, by 'intellectuals', kinda like our universities.

The killed because of their communist ideology and theories.

Now, tell us how often the U.S. Government has punished your home-grown war criminals. I'll go easy on you - just the ones who committed atrocities in the last 50 years.

Easy. Abu Gharab, the Marines pissing on corpses, the Marine who went on a night rampage in a village killing Afghanis in cold blood. But sometimes we go to far and prosecute guys just doing their jobs. Michael Behenna is being released finally, he was just protecting himself from jihadi. There have been others.

Pretty well everybody who is debating your fascist logic is trying to inform you that there are, as I suggested, maybe twelve real communists in the U.S. these days, and that your paranoid conspiracy fantasy is ridiculous.

This is common communist propaganda amongst the left. "Ah, that sh#t is dead, you're paranoid, communism is dead". No it's not. I direct you again to the Communist Party USA website;

http://www.cpusa.org/

I'll bet there are more than 12 members that adhere to communist philosophy.

There is nothing I am aware of in Marxism (the original and only variety of communism at the time) that condones the mass murder of innocents.

Then why does Marxism ALWAYS result in mass murder and oppression of innocents?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Then why does Marxism ALWAYS result in mass murder and oppression of innocents?

Mostly for the same reasons that other political, economic, and religious beliefs do.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
Define: "adhering to communist philosophy"

be specific
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
I can't find a special dues offer for membership on the Communist website for academics. Can someone point it out to me?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
Then why does Marxism ALWAYS result in mass murder and oppression of innocents?

Ummm, is that going on in Sweden right now?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Thanks! Will do...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Bluering! Are you back to your imaginary commies in the U.S woodpile spew???"

We know how you enjoy quoting from your 1958 Mormon, ex-FBI agent, dis-owned by his right-wing, fellow-Commie-paranoids, book author.

I think you are ignoring some questions from this thread?

What about all the Christians that your fellow Christians have killed in the name of Christ?


Albigensian Crusade (1208-49) 1,000,000 killed.
The traditional death toll given for the war against the Cathars is one million, which is repeated in these: ■John M. Robertson, A Short History of Christianity, London: Watts, 1902, p.254 ("It has been reckoned that a million of all ages and both sexes were slain.")
■Christopher Brookmyre, Not the End of the World (New York: Grove Press, 1998) p.39
■Max Dimont, Jews, God, and History, (New York: Penguin, 1994) p.225: 1,000,000 Frenchmen suspected of being Albigensians slain
■Dizerega Gus, Pagans & Christians: The Personal Spiritual Experience (St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn, 2001) p.195
■Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History (Orlando, FL: Morningstar & Lark, 1995) p.74
■Michael Newton, Holy Homicide (Port Townsend, WA: Loompanics Unlimited, 1998) p.117

◦Rummel: 200,000 democides
◦Individual incidents: ■Flexner, Pessimist's Guide to History: 20,000 massacred in Beziers.
■Ellerbe: ■Beziers: 20-100,000
■St. Nazair: 12,000
■Tolouse: 10,000

■Newton: 20-100,000 massacred in Beziers.
■Sumption, Albigensian Crusade (1978):

http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
Is the Communist Party Black Tie or Semi-Formal? Are you guys going?
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
^ Doesn't matter to me. A little black, er, I mean Red Dress is all I need. :)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
If in the year 2014 you still fear communists you better not turn off the lights at night. Don't worry...medication can make those voices you hear very muted.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
Ummm, is that going on in Sweden right now?


Check yer facts. Sweden is Socialist, not Marxist.

EDIT: And Fritz still only list one side of the story. Do you know how many Christians were forced from their homes the past couple of years in Iraq? Under the threat of convert or die? Over a million.

Do you know how many Nigerian Christian were killed in the past 2 years for being Christian? I can give you a map I made that has been tracking it for over 4 years.

You really want to make Christians seem like the violent ones, but you and I know the reality. Why do you keep pushing the bullsh#t?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Um, Sweden is not socialist either.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
Check yer facts. Sweden is Socialist, not Marxist.

OMG


Um, Sweden is not socialist either.

I would disagree.
The legacy of Social Democratic Party governance in Sweden is widely regarded as increasing the quality of life, naturally among those who benefit directly from an affluent, low-inequality society, but even among the wealthy. One Volvo executive admitted that a strong social welfare state, like the Swedish, helps finance a quality of life that low individual taxes cannot. When faced with the question, "Why don't you leave (Sweden)? Certainly, you would pay a lot lower taxes and probably also have a higher salary in the U.S.", he responded, "Yes, of course, I would have a lot more money in my pocket. But I would also almost never get home before 7 o'clock and I certainly would not have the vacations everyone has a right to here... and you know what else, I would have to spend a lot more money on insurance, college for my kids, and travel back home to my family. In the end, I'm not really sure I would be any better off."
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Bang on, Ghost.

blueringworm: Perhaps the perversions of Marxism come from the same place as the Bush family (and their toadies) perversions of democracy - and common decency.

I suggest that you tread VERY carefully about hanging the atrocities committed by Pol Pot exclusively on the monsters masquerading as commies - the U.S. did not exactly walk away blameless from that horror show.

As for Ho Chi Minh, first of all, he was a patriot who helped downed U.S. (and other Allied)airmen to escape from the Japanese during WW II - under the (mis)understanding that Viet Nam would be granted independence after the war. You bet innocents died during that 30 year conflict, which is one of the ugly realities of civil wars. Perhaps nearly 4 million Vietnamese soldiers and civilians might be alive today if the U.S. didn't keep propping up corrupt puppet regimes over there with the full power of the world's most powerful military, and a "Domino Theory" which was every bit as much a cynical lie as the WMD bullshit regarding Iraq.

By the way, Ho Chi Minh took down Pol Pot (commies, you say), and also fought a war against the Chinese (more commies). So much for communist solidarity.

Castro and Che were also patriots. Castro had every right to free his country from Batista, who was a vicious stooge of the U.S., not to mention the Mafia. I have no doubt that innocents got killed during the revolution, but those numbers pale to relative insignificance when compared to the victims of both Bush presidencies.

Thanks for your mind-boggingly brief catalogue of U.S. war crimes during the last 50 years. Earlier, you made the IDIOTIC comment that the U.S. is justified in ignoring the authority of the International Criminal Court, since it's "against the Constitution"...

Now, just once, try to put your fascist ideology aside to ponder this:

Under the existing law of their nations, the unspeakable atrocities committed by Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and, of course, Reagan and both Bushes were all perfectly legal.

Please get your thumb out of your arse and try to find at least one FACTUAL argument to defend your original premise. You dishonour the memory of the U.S. citizens who have given their lives to give you the right to spout this deranged, hateful bullsh#t. They deserve better.

P.S.: Re your equally idiotic comment that "Sweden is Socialist, not Marxist", aren't you the same mouth breather that has been consistently claiming that everyone whose politics are to the left of your fascist fairyland are ALL commies?

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
Yeah, whatever, despots always take down other despots. It's all about power and control. See Stalin vs. Hitler.

Your relentless obsession with the "tyrant" Bush is really weak. We never conquered anything like we did in WWII. We always leave nowadays when the sh#t calms down...sometimes too soon, of late.

EDIT: Sweden is used to be Socialist like China was Communist. Yeah, they sell some stuff now.

You're making making my 'Socialism sucks' argument for me...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Sweden socialist?

IKEA makes American capitalist pigs look like petty amateurs.

So, what's your point? That there's no free enterprise in a socialist economy? If so, you are wrong. I reference the writings of Norman Thomas and Michael Harrington.

Furthermore I submit to you that the small businessman in this country would be much better off in a more social democratic regime than the present Wall Street oligarchy.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Bluering: are you really as pig-ignorant than you clearly are?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
You're making making my 'Socialism sucks' argument for me...

Sorry, bluering, but you are totally ignorant about any of this.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:20pm PT
Social welfare is different than socialism. Sweden has a strong market based economy with higher taxes and better benefits. Not the same as state owned industry, etc.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
Sorry, bluering, but you are totally ignorant about any of this.

Um, no. They sell Saab's and Ikea stuff. Cool!

What many fail to see is that Socialist Europe is awakening, while we fall into their fallacy.

Europe is starting to realize their past errors as they delved into socialism. Just look at the current nationalistic uprisings in Holland, France, Germany, and even Switzerland. They aren't fascist, but pure nationalism.

Australia is awake now too. And Canada. We have fallen behind under poor leadership. The world has lost their leader, but some of you, like our dear leader, may just like it that way.

I just hope that as we get kicked down the ladder, people remember what we sacrificed to help all of our friends, and it was a lot.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
some of you, like our dear leader, may just like it that way.

good stuff blue...

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 23, 2014 - 05:25am PT
Not the same as state owned industry, etc.

No socialist advocates owning industries, except for basic infrastructures such as transportation, medicine, Auto, plane, etc. manufacturing, no.

But I've only read the American socialists. Lots of different ideas out there.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 23, 2014 - 05:27am PT
Just look at the current nationalistic uprisings in Holland, France, Germany, and even Switzerland. They aren't fascist, but pure nationalism.

So, your a f*#king neo-nazi. Figures. Fascism thrives on ignorance and apathy.
raymond phule

climber
Jul 23, 2014 - 05:55am PT

What many fail to see is that Socialist Europe is awakening, while we fall into their fallacy.

Europe is starting to realize their past errors as they delved into socialism. Just look at the current nationalistic uprisings in Holland, France, Germany, and even Switzerland. They aren't fascist, but pure nationalism.


Bluering, you I am sure that you have not been outside USA or have you?

Socialist Europe? At time were that the case? Calling fascist/rasist movements pure nationalism...


Yeah, they sell some stuff now.

When did sweden start selling stuff in your world?
raymond phule

climber
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:05am PT

No socialist advocates owning industries, except for basic infrastructures such as transportation, medicine, Auto, plane, etc. manufacturing, no.

But I've only read the American socialists. Lots of different ideas out there.

I am not sure what you mean with socialism. I would say that all European countries after the fall of east Europe are mixed economies and that western Europe have always been mixed economies.

I really don't believe that a country with some state own infrastructure should be called socialistic.

The beginning of the wik article kind of disagree with you. I haven't read the whole article.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:34am PT
I am not sure what you mean with socialism. I would say that all European countries after the fall of east Europe are mixed economies and that western Europe have always been mixed economies.

I really don't believe that a country with some state own infrastructure should be called socialistic.

I don't base my thinking on wiki, but Norman Thomas, Michael Harrington and Eugene Debs. Socialism is mixed economy. The main thing is to not have a tiny class siphoning off the wealth produced by the entire nation.

I base my opinion on what the socialist thinkers have written. Bluering bases his opinion on the John Birch Society. It's a mistake to base your opinion on any subject solely on what those opposed to it have to say on the matter. That's what bluering has done. He says he despises the MSM, yet bases his thinking on what they feed him.

Harrington gave a speech to some auto workers in Detroit a long time ago. This when he was still top dog at the old Socialist Party. The sponsor said he would introduce Harrington as author of The Other America: Poverty in the United States. Harrington said no, introduce me as a socialist.

He was roundly booed when introduced. At the end of his speech he was cheered.

If you can find them Norman Thomas' Socialism Re-examined and Socialism on the Defensive make great reading on the subject, along with Michael Harrington's Socialism.
raymond phule

climber
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:48am PT
Ok, I am not sure what is usually meant with socialism but I would guess that it is possibly that the definition is different in american politics and in European politics and that it has changed but I also saw that Palme called himself a democratic socialist.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:50am PT
Don't worry, she's going to make it all better:


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/michele-bachmann-on-a-2016-presidential-bid-theres-a-chance/
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 23, 2014 - 09:47am PT
I'll bet there are more than 12 members that adhere to communist philosophy.

12 members where?

12 communist members in the entire United States?

or are you saying on this Supertopo forum there are at least 15 people who "adhere to communist philosophy?

secondly. blue, please define specifically how these members adhere?

you called ME a "communist", even I though I served this country and came back from the jungle half dead with malaria

you never said WHY I was a "communist" , blue, please say exactly why I am now
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 23, 2014 - 10:45am PT
Yeah, those words have become meaningless epithets in the last couple of decades.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jul 23, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
Anti-communist extremism has gone through a lot of phases since Senator Dies committee hearings in 1938. It really peaked during the short-lived career of Senator Joseph McCarthy between 1950 and his censure by the Senate in 1954. It did linger on in the House Un-American Activities Subcommittee hearings in the late 1950s and, of course, in Dick Nixon's Domestic Enemies List during the Watergate years in the early 1970s.

Like every historical artifact is has a definite beginning, middle and end punctuated by a series of occasional rebirths. Hard to peddle it these days since the disintegration of the Soviet empire. Kids today are more interested in smart phones and the social media like Facebook and Twitter.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 23, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
michele-bachmann-on-a-2016-presidential-bid-theres-a-chance/

What are my chances?
Not good.
You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
I'd say more like one out of a million.
So you're telling me there's a chance... YEAH!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 23, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Abstract:
By running an experiment among Germans collecting their passports or ID cards in the citizen centers of Berlin, we find that individuals with an East German family background cheat significantly more on an abstract task than those with a West German family background. The longer individuals were exposed to socialism, the more likely they were to cheat on our task. While it was recently argued that markets decay morals (Falk and Szech, 2013), we provide evidence that other political and economic regimes such as socialism might have an even more detrimental effect on individuals behavior.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2457000

crankster

Trad climber
Jul 23, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
blueringworm: attempting to explain reality to you is about as much a lost cause as trying to teach a stone monkey how to fart.*

You seem incapable of understanding the concept of verifiable facts, and your pathetic attempts to justify your delusional assertions would get you laughed out of any respectable educational institution.

Yes, the Bush clan and their associates are war criminals. Most of the civilized world would agree with this statement.

I'll give you ONE fact that I hope even your diseased mind can comprehend: there's this thing called the Geneva Conventions, and it was negotiated to set some kind of rules to control the devastation caused by modern warfare, regardless of the cause.

The murder and torture by the Japanese of uncounted Allied POWs (mainly U.S.) during WW II therefore was perfectly legal under Japanese law BECAUSE THE JAPANESE WERE NOT SIGNATORIES TO THESE AGREEMENTS.

Now that the U.S. has legalized the torture of POWs, what do morons like you figure is in store for U.S. servicemen if they get captured by a hostile power who, like the U.S., refuses to acknowledge this and other international agreements?

What the f*#k is the matter with you? Almost every U.S. citizen I have met has been a generous, friendly human being - then you crawl out of the darkness to indelibly stain the flag of the United States by subjecting harmless people to your evil ravings while attempting to pass clinically paranoid fantasies as reality. You should be ashamed of yourself for this fascist crap. There's already plenty of misery all over the planet without you happily attempting to impose additional suffering upon innocents.

*Bernard Cornwell, I think.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 23, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
Bluering! Maybe it's time to start a new inflammatory and totally stupid thread, before Ron Anderson beats you to it.

I know you can get a lot of attention with these titles!

May I suggest???

Obamists!

Ukrainests!


Israilists!


Illegal Imigrantists!


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 13, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
OMG!!!!!1111 Bluey, the commies are taking over Kentucky! That's right, not even old Kaintuck is safe from the International Communist Conspiracy.

After years of complaints about high gas prices in Somerset, Ky., the city council and mayor did something about it. Last month, Somerset began selling gasoline to the public.

"It should have been this way years ago fair," says Bob Thomas as he fills up his green pickup truck at the municipal Somerset Fuel Center.

The price is $3.36 a gallon, lower than the statewide average.

Somerset Mayor Eddie Girdler oversaw the project. He says gas in his town has long been higher because of lack of competition while median family income in Somerset is lower than the state average.

"We're like $14,000 to $15,000 less. Why should we be paying high gas prices because they can't afford to start with," Girdler says. "We help our economy, we help our nation and we help our commonwealth by doing things that drives down prices so that the consumer, or again, the people, is protected."

But not everyone's is happy with the way the mayor went about trying to lower gas prices.

"It is nothing but a socialist movement towards government trying to solve everyone's problems. And government is not the answer; government's the problem," says state Sen. Chris Girdler, a distant cousin of the mayor's.
...

The Kentucky office of the National Federation of Independent Business doesn't like the city gas station either and says government competition isn't fair to local businesses.

"Our members are really getting up in arms about this, and we'll be approaching the Kentucky General Assembly to see if we can find relief there," says Tom Underwood, who heads the state NFIB office in Frankfort.

But energy economist Philip Verleger says it won't be local gas stations that feel the biggest sting, but the oil companies, which may have to cut their wholesale gasoline prices in response.

"This is a real threat to the profits of companies like Marathon refining, Phillips 66 and others," Verleger says...

At commercial gas stations along Highway 27, Somerset's thoroughfare, customers weren't too upset at the idea of the city selling gas.

"It helps the city out, maybe make a little bit of money for the city, keep the area in good shape, I think it's a good thing," said Doug Harrison.

Others say reducing the price of gas is key.

"The prices are down right now, and I believe it's because they opened that up," said Larry Hall.

The average cost of gas in Somerset has fallen. It's now 20 cents below the statewide average. The mayor says that's all he ever wanted.

"We couldn't get anywhere, and we decided that hey, we might as well take a stand in a small way of saying that we're tired of it ... and it is working," he says.

He says the only people he's worried about answering to are his constituents.

Commies in the Commonwealth? We're doomed!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 13, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
Commies in the Commonwealth? We're doomed!


Indeed! Time for Bluering to call out for the Government to shut down them down!

Are those Commies black??
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
Nice try, guys. Trying to bait me into a story???

This is a non-story...keep trying though, pinkos.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 13, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
The revolution will knott be televised.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 14, 2014 - 05:35am PT
This is a non-story...

Not really, it's very informative. Here we have a local government doing what the federal government won't do: break up the oil monopoly.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/13/340085122/city-run-gas-station-makes-waves-in-southeastern-kentucky
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 14, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
Has anyone noticed that at no point has blueringworm has never denied that he is a fascist?

This is who you are wasting your time debating with. Blueringworm's bible, Mein Kampf", which is the gold standard for irrational hatred is where the concept of the "big lie" was spawned - it goes like this: continue repeating the lunatic assertions of a loathsome agenda while completely ignoring verifiable and objective facts. After a while, people will start to accept these twisted assertions as the truth.

Needless to say, it worked like a hot damn in Nazi Germany and 55 million people died before Hitler finally did the only decent thing that he ever did with his worthless life, which was to commit suicide.

Does anyone still remember Bush Sr.'s promise to create a kinder, gentler America? Oh. yeah - HIS father was investigated under the Trading With the Enemy Act during World War Two - shades of Iran-Contra, and the direct connections of the Bush family to the bin Ladens and Sadaam Hussein. More facts conveniently ignored by fascists.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 14, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Lol..."Commies."
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 14, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
OMG!!!!11111 Bluey!!!!! Even Lauren Bacal was a commie! And Bogie, too????
Only Babe Ruth can save us now.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 07:55pm PT
Has anyone noticed that at no point has blueringworm has never denied that he is a fascist?

Nice one, right out The Little Red Book! Demonize those who oppose you with other labels that are false.

How am I a fascist exactly? Explain that, or go and f*#k yourself. Please try to be clear.

And for the record, I'm a free-market capitalist that opposes gov't imposition into the economy on a broad scale.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 14, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
And for the record, I'm a free-market capitalist that opposes gov't imposition into the economy on a broad scale.

We know that. You like supporting freeloaders, well not all of us do. That's why I vote socialist.

Anyway, bluester, I'll close with a quote from one of your fellow gun nuts, I'm sure the NRA approves of this message.
Captain...or Skully

climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
Aug 14, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
Bottom line is you're a dumbass with an axe to grind.
F*#k you now and always, stupid.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 14, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
hey blueringworm: If the shoe fits, try to be man enough to wear it.

For starters, your lunatic attempts to destroy innocent lives through accusing good people of being communists participating in a conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government is straight out of Hitler's playbook.

Since you are apparently too dumb to read or retain facts, I will provide you with them once more. These definitions are courtesy of the Oxford Dictionary of Current English:

Fascism - extreme right wing totalitarian political system or views, as originally prevailing in Italy.

Right (as in right wing) - political group or section favouring conservatism, conservatives collectively.

Is that enough for you? Now go piss up a rope.

Maybe I SHOULD go out and f*#k myself, since I'm magnificent in the sack.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
We know that. You like supporting freeloaders, well not all of us do. That's why I vote socialist.

Anyway, bluester, I'll close with a quote from one of your fellow gun nuts, I'm sure the NRA approves of this message.

Yeah, too bad all the other commies (Stalin) didn't heed that advice.

So, yer cool with guns on citizens?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
hey blueringworm: If the shoe fits, try to be man enough to wear it.

For starters, your lunatic attempts to destroy innocent lives through accusing good people of being communists participating in a conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government is straight out of Hitler's playbook.

Since you are apparently too dumb to read or retain facts, I will provide you with them once more. These definitions are courtesy of the Oxford Dictionary of Current English:

Fascism - extreme right wing totalitarian political system or views, as originally prevailing in Italy.

Right (as in right wing) - political group or section favoring conservatism, conservatives collectively.

Is that enough for you? Now go piss up a rope.

Maybe I SHOULD go out and f*#k myself, since I'm magnificent in the sack.


Um, you just conflated 2 different political theories into one. Fascists and conservatives are not necessarily the same thing.

That would be akin to calling ALL nationalists NAZIS.

How am I trying trying to "destroy innocent lives" exactly? I'm just pointing out people with commie tendencies.

Also, is the Muslim Brotherhood, the Black Panthers, or La Raza considered to be radical in yer playbook? Just curious.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
Please don't take definitions from Wiki.

And La Raza is a militant group that literally means "The Race".

It's a brown-supremacy group that essentially advocates invading the Southwest US.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 15, 2014 - 06:40am PT
Yeah, too bad all the other commies (Stalin) didn't heed that advice.

Stalin was not a commie. Just another dick.

So, yer cool with guns on citizens?

Strange that the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, etc. didn't need guns to kick out the Soviets, isn't it?

drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Aug 15, 2014 - 06:43am PT
Please don't take definitions from Wiki.

And La Raza is a militant group that literally means "The Race".

It's a brown-supremacy group that essentially advocates invading the Southwest US.

Please don't take definitions from Bluering.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 15, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
blueringworm: You are misquoting the definition of fascism. It refers to EXTREME conservative views, and you are certainly a poster boy for mouth-breathing conservative extremists.

Here's what you can do: take your etymological objections to the folks who publish the Oxford English Dictionary. I am certain that they would be delighted to hear from a deep thinker like yourself.

Your cowardly claim that you are "merely pointing out pinkos" is contemptible, especially since I am merely pointing out fascists.

Your initial post referred to progressives and their "organized protests against anything American". You started this thread, so be man enough to explain what "anything American" means to you.

Oh, yeah - since I don't think you have EVER provided a verifiable response to any of my points, how about if you start by responding to the already verified fact that the top 1% of the U.S. population controls 37% of the nation's wealth. Is this your idea of fair?



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
We were right. Not me, but Bacall and Bogie

http://spectator.org/articles/60253/when-bogie-and-bacall-were-duped-hollywood-communists
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2014 - 06:29am PT
Why do you guys insist that Wiki is a legit source?

Why not take it from the source, or the founder's own words.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JxYznIECVEY

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2014 - 06:43am PT
Why not take it from the source, or the founder's own words.

Because you guys do not, when you repudiate the words of Thomas Jefferson (a wall between church and state), or you repudiate the Constitution that guarantees gun possession for MILITIAS.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2014 - 06:52am PT
But coming back to the original question, I have reconsidered my standard thinking about Communism: It hasn't failed, it simply hasn't been tried.
(I say the same about Christianity)

There is actually a good model for communism: The Kibbutz. Widely used in Israel.

A kibbutz (Hebrew: קִבּוּץ / קיבוץ, lit. "gathering, clustering"; plural kibbutzim) is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutz, established in 1909, was Degania. Today, farming has been partly supplanted by other economic branches, including industrial plants and high-tech enterprises

In 2010, there were 270 kibbutzim in Israel. Their factories and farms account for 9% of Israel's industrial output....and 40% of its agricultural output.

Kibbutzniks did not individually own tools, or even clothing. Gifts and income received from outside were turned over to the common treasury.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 16, 2014 - 10:09am PT
I would double-check anything I found on Wikipedia, and then double-check that, before I assumed it was true.

Wikipedia as a primary source of information is sketchy. At best, it will point you to a more credible source.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 16, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Thanks for the laughs...
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 16, 2014 - 01:49pm PT
blueringworm: glad to see your fascist "logic" attempting to keep afloat in a sea of reality. You see, people who aren't fascists provide verifiable facts to support their allegations.

AGAIN, when you started this hateful thread, you accused pinkos of being opposed to ANYTHING AMERICAN. Now, would you be man enough to explain what your delusional accusations are referring to?

Oh, yeah - what is your opinion of the the fairness of 37% of wealth in the U.S. being controlled by 1% of the population? Sorry to keep repeating myself, but if you had responded the first time I asked, I might have let this question drop.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 16, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
The OP mentioned the ACLU.

Calling them communists is absurd. They defend the Bill Of Rights, particularly when it isn't popular.

We need an ACLU type organization. Too many times we see people trying to reserve those rights only for themselves.

True communism does not think much about individual rights, only collective ones.

The ACLU is a hyper-libertarian group. Calling them communists smells like fascism.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 16, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Chaz posted
I would double-check anything I found on Wikipedia, and then double-check that, before I assumed it was true.

Wikipedia as a primary source of information is sketchy. At best, it will point you to a more credible source.

Why read Wikipedia when you have Breitbart's and PatDollard's web sites?
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 16, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
Guys, I'm sure that Youtube video created by USAPatriot76 is way better informed and unbiased than anything you're going to find on Wikipedia.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
Why read Wikipedia when you have Breitbart's and PatDollard's web sites?


They don't claim to be unbiased. Nice to see Breitbart and PatDollard getting so much free press here though...

Guys, I'm sure that Youtube video created by USAPatriot76 is way better informed and unbiased than anything you're going to find on Wikipedia.


Um, it's a video of the founder in his own words, and others. Do you think he was coerced or something?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 17, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
blueringworm: I am continually amazed at your lack of even a scrap of integrity.

You started this thread with the statement (these are your own words) that goes: blah blah blah (my words) organized protests AGAINST ANYTHING AMERICAN.

Would you be intellectually honest enough to explain yourself?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 17, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
bluering states
They don't claim to be unbiased.

And yet you run to them for the "real scoop" every morning. I have no problem with people indulging in a little self-assuring confirmation bias with partisan sites on their personal time, but when you start using their articles to try to prove a factual point about something you've dropped down the rabbit hole.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 17, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
I have found Wiki to be an excellent source of info, particularly on the topics of history and science. It has a self correcting mechanism in place, and it is far better than any written encyclopedia.

I read the entry about fascism yesterday, and it was in depth.

People use the word "fascism" too loosely. The main tenet of fascism is hyper-nationalism.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 17, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
BASE 104: Hyper-nationalism is one of the tenets of extreme conservatism.

With respect, I hardly ever see the term "fascist" used anywhere, and fascist is an appropriate label for the delusional comments supplied by the author of this thread. What I DO see - everywhere - is the words "socialist" and "pinko" used as an insult to anyone who doesn't support right wing views.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Aug 17, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
Just stopping by to enjoy watching people kick blurring for being a dumbass. Carry on.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 17, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Hey Flip Flop: thanks for the laugh. If you're ever up this way, give me a call - I owe you a beer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 17, 2014 - 10:26pm PT
Ken M is right: Communism has never been tried on a national scale.

And it never will because everyone would be too busy arguing about what communism should be.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2014 - 10:58pm PT

And it never will because everyone would be too busy arguing about what communism should be.


Or how, this time, it's REALLY gonna work....

f*#king pinkos.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 18, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
Hey Bruce Kay: Don't forget that you're talking to a fascist who STARTED this thread to accuse the hordes of commies who are assailing all that is good in the U.S. by being - direct quote from blueringworm - OPPOSED TO ANYTHING AMERICAN.

In spite of being repeatedly asked for clarification, he is not man enough to explain what on earth he is talking about.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 18, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Thatcher and Reagan did more for humanity than any f*#king commie, despite their preachings and platitudes.

Dream on buddy. You really think that Reagan was responsible for the end of the Cold War, indeed if it did end? Gorbachev stuck his neck on the line more than Ronnie did. Of course, I wouldn't hesitate to think that you believe the US won WW2 by itself (a lot of brave people in the US military, I would have sh#t my pants jumping out of a landing craft on Omaha Beach, for example), without the Red Army losses (huge), the British, Aussies, Kiwis, French, Polish and Dutch Resistance movements, Indians, Nepalese, Chinese, Burmese, and others etc etc. Rah rah America. (EDIT, for Stewart, thanks dude, and Canadians, see below).

And remember my family has been in America longer than yours has - 1640 - and fought the British in the War for Independence and the second man to sign the Declaration was an ancestor. But because I am a liberal, to you that equates as a leftist, perhaps you may even think I am a commie.

As for Maggie, I interviewed her in August 1989 (London, where I was a journalist for seven years). Gawd was she a pain (me against her senior press officer, two other press officers, a secretary and Mag's main aide - and her, the Iron Lady. Dogmatic, obstinate, an effing pain to interview for an hour. She tried intimidating me, seriously, I kid you not). Take my word for it, she was a pain. Or don't take my word for it, at the end of the day I could not care what some person like you thinks. If perhaps you came out with some reasonable, level-headed, logical statements, I would be prepared to listen to you.

Politics aside, I know you are a decent chap, a good dude, just a bit, uh, eh, out of left field. Oops, make that right field.

EDIT

Humanity? Thatcher and Reagan? Don't make me laugh. For example, prior to the invasion of the Falklands/Malvinas by the idiotic and psychopathic Argentinian junta, Maggie's poll rating was as low as 14% at one point. She welcomed the invasion IMO. Like the junta, very unpopular at the time in Argentina, Maggie knew a war is a good way to get a nation behind a leader. A good boost in the polls.

Forget diplomacy, send the boys off to die. Show me Bluey, how Maggie was great for humanity. Or even Reagan. Show me. And not some propaganda crap from some right-wingers, I want proof, documented proof. Otherwise your assertion that Maggie and Ronnie were great for humanity is a load of manure.

And don't compare them with Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler or anybody of that ilk, we know people like those were crazy. Headcases. Of course Ronnie and his ideological "lover" Maggie were not like those people. But good for humanity? Actually, I am laughing.

ANOTHER EDIT

Hey Bluey, so if all Americans do not think like you do that they are commies? Have I taken that correctly?

I am glad there are liberals, conservatives in fact even neo-conservatives and neo-liberals in America. I can do without extremists, regardless of their ideology, but what makes a country like the United States great is precisely that there is a difference of opinion, dialogue, back and forth (as long as it is constructive), and consensus.

Correct me if I am wrong Bluey, but you seem to want all Americans to think like you do. That would truly be the beginning of the end.

Oh yeah and this

I would have sh#t my pants jumping out of a landing craft on Omaha Beach

I probably would have.

But Uncle Bill Casey (US Army), injured and captured in North Africa, then escaped from a Nazi POW camp in Italy along with two Canadian commandoes, made their way back to Allied (British) lines after an ordeal.

Uncle Joe Sawyer (US Marines) injured and captured in the south Pacific and suffered in a Japanese POW camp. Malaria, beri beri, and horrendous abuse.

These were men, people, fighting for democracy, for Americans to have a voice of their own, for ideological differences, for people to agree to disagree. Not some crybaby who calls people who do not believe in his ideology and politics, commies.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 18, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
Patrick: Magnificently put, but too bad blueringworm is going to ignore it.

Don't forget that this guy figures that Fox news is an impartial provider of information. You may have noticed that he won't even defend the original assertions he unleashed when he started this thread.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 18, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
Stewart, a bit off topic, but the family (Casey) folklore is that Uncle Bill showed up at the farm in West Virginia (my grandfather, Papa Casey was a well-respected judge in WVA - a statue of him is in Pittsburgh PA for helping the miners and steel workers for free - fighting the bosses - after retiring from the bench - Grandpa Sawyer was a well-respected judge in Olympia, Washington).

I digress, so family folkore is that Uncle Bill showed up at the farm in a Canadian commando uniform. I do not believe that.

Yes he and the two Canucks (excuse me, I was waiting to use that, says Yank Patrick) did escape, apparently the one Canadian exchanged cigarettes for wire cutters, and Uncle Bill said that they had a devil of time to making it to Allied lines and safety, at one point hiding in bushes in an ant hill, ants crawling all over them as a German patrol went by.

But the Canadian commando uniform bit, I think was perhaps, I don't really know, but perhaps an embellishment, I mean, once back in England (and escaped or freed Allied POWs were sent home, no more front line duty, as I understand it), he would have been transferred to an US Army outfit. I think.

But you know uncles, they can exaggerate. But he and the two Canucks, yuck yuck Canuck, did escape, that is fact. The Canadian commando uniform bit, I just don't see it.

Back on topic, from what I gather from other Taco Standers who know Bluering, he seems like a sincere guy, just brainwashed.

EDIT (I have to, I am compelled to)

for helping the miners and steel workers for free - fighting the bosses

So by Bluering's reckoning, if Papa Casey helped the workers to fight the bosses, he was fighting capitalism, hence he was a communist. So not only was he a good liberal Irish-American, but, by what Bluering espouses, could have been a Commie, helping the proletariat.

Nah, that is a huge stretch, nothing doing. He was an honest and just judge. But felt for the "little man".

What about you Bluey, do you feel for the worker? Rest assured, you do not have to be a Commie to side with the average person, with the working class, with the middle class, of which your saints Thatcher, Reagan and Bushes - to name a few - want to keep down, under their thumbs. To brainwash with Faux News.

Think about it Bluering. Who do you really support?

And nothing wrong with the boss, if he/she is a good one. But is it profit before people, or people before profit. Perhaps, with intelligence, it can be both amicalbly. Working together. It can happen.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Aug 18, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
Hi Patrick: There was a joint Yank/Canuck commando force called the First Special Services Brigade which fought in Italy. There was a movie made about these guys called "The Devil's Brigade". I'm not clear on what their uniforms looked like, but they were seriously tough guys who, if memory serves me properly never once failed to take their objectives. They wore a red arrowhead patch with the words Canada/U.S.A. within its borders.

Just to blur things even more, Canadians served in the U.S. military and other Commonwealth forces (including the British commandos) and some Yanks served in Commonwealth forces, which sometimes led to confusion about someone's nationality based on their uniform alone. As A matter of fact, during the Dieppe fiasco, which caused the loss of over 900 Canadian lives in a few hours, there was a detachment of 50(?) U.S. Rangers that landed with them, and I believe that 3 of them were killed - the first uniformed U.S. army casualties in the European war, if my admittedly fallible memory serves me correctly.

Hope some of this may be of interest.

I'll save you some time waiting for blueringworm's opinion regarding worker's rights. It goes something like "they're already overpaid, and if they're not delighted with their earnings, then they're commies."

The only "worker's" rights he's interested in are those of billionaires, proof of which can be found in his amazing inability to respond to repeated inquiries about the fairness of 1% of the U.S. population controlling 37% of the nation's wealth.
couchmaster

climber
Sep 5, 2014 - 05:44am PT

Can't say if they were ever sic'ed on the Germans up in the Dolomites Stewart, but when the war ended, Berlin was in flames -Hitler was dead and the Reich had surrendered, there were still well armed German units dug in and unsurrendered up in the Italian mountains. They walked out later when they were damned good and ready, never having been beaten.

Father in laws unit, the most decorated unit in the US Army during WW2, took an unsuccessful shot at dislodging them before they were pulled out to try and rescue the lost battalion.

Which went horribly wrong.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 5, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
Hey couchmaster: Are you referring to the 442nd Regimental Combat Team? If so, the bad news is that, as you say, they were shot to pieces. The good news, if it can be called that under the circumstances, was that they indeed made contact with the "Lost Battalion" and led the survivors to safety. Hope that I'm correct about this, as I'm not especially familiar with the details.

The 442nd RCT was one hell of an outfit, and they should be remembered with honour, as should all of our veterans who put their lives on the line to rid the world of fascism.

History has been brutally indifferent to the Allied forces who fought in the Italian Campaign. Their massive contribution to victory in Europe has been pretty well ignored by later generations - as a matter of fact, an inbred English aristocrat at the time unspeakably insulted these brave servicemen by labelling them the "D-Day Dodgers", as if it was a crime to make the first permanent Allied foothold in Europe nearly a year before the Normandy landings.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Sep 5, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Hay, Bluering!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 6, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
blueringworm has now assured me that he intends to continue with this thread - possibly the most dumb-ass thread in the history of the internet - but didn't bother to explain why he hasn't answered any of the repeated questions as to what on earth he was talking about in the first place - namely what on earth the "anything American" these legions of cunningly hidden commies were opposed to in the first place.

I guess he's still busy collating the objective facts Fox news has provided him with on August 17, the date of his last posting.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 02:01am PT
what on earth the "anything American" these legions of cunningly hidden commies were opposed to in the first place.

Is that a question or a statement? As a commie yourself you should be aware of the answer to that innocuous crap. I've already pointed out the agenda.

Stop saying I don't answer your stupid questions. Read the f*#king thread, idiot!


EDIT: Hi, Edris...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 7, 2014 - 03:13am PT
Further to my previous post, Bluey.

I wonder if you are one of these nutcases who thinks surrender is a bad word. My Uncle Bill and my Uncle Joe had no alternative, they were injured and left behind, by no desire by their own command, that is just the way war is. But of course Bluering, who has never seen action (neither have I), may (I stress MAY) think that they were cowards for being surrounded, injured, and maybe should have committed Hari Kari, or something.

But you, with your big blue balls would never surrender to the enemy. You are a hero in your mind.

You espouse war. You, in my mind, are in someways no better than ISIS. Off with their heads. That is medevial, but that Bluering, unless you can say otherwise, is your way. Bluering = ISIS.

The Islamic States are vicious, they are knowlegable, they know how to use the media and technology, make no mistake about it. But headless chickens like you Bluering, sort of frightening as well.

You, Bluey, in your own way, tries to use the internet to espouse your hatred of people that do not agree with you. You call them names. Commies, immigrants (like your ancestors originated in America, yeah right) as you started this thread, so, really, and think about it, are you really any different than ISIS?

EDIT

I wrote the above without reading the last few posts. Bluering, you need help before you set a bomb off on Fisherman's Wharf, or Pier 39 or University of California Berkeley. You need help buddy. Anger management? Or more.

I thought, one day if we ever met, that despite our ideological differences, we could rope up. But now hmmm

Bluering, seek help. Seriously, and not from your anti-American friends and their BS literature about how liberals are bad. To me, you are ISIS. Can I say that again, you are the American ISIS, just with a different religion and agenda, still dogmatic, insular. IMO, you are bad news, perhaps more invasive than Islamic extremists in American society.

I challenge you to my assertions that you are as much a nutcase as ISIS. (Albeit, without the beheadings, but I wonder in your case).

Fire away buddy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 10:05am PT
I wrote the above without reading the last few posts. Bluering, you need help before you set a bomb off on Fisherman's Wharf, or Pier 39 or University of California Berkeley. You need help buddy. Anger management? Or more.

I thought, one day if we ever met, that despite our ideological differences, we could rope up. But now hmmm

Bluering, seek help. Seriously, and not from your anti-American friends and their BS literature about how liberals are bad. To me, you are ISIS. Can I say that again, you are the American ISIS, just with a different religion and agenda, still dogmatic, insular. IMO, you are bad news, perhaps more invasive than Islamic extremists in American society.

I challenge you to my assertions that you are as much a nutcase as ISIS. (Albeit, without the beheadings, but I wionder in your case).

Fire away buddy.

What? Are you completely f*#king crazy?
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 7, 2014 - 10:09am PT
Kumbaya brothers and sisters,

If I say the word 'love thy neighbor' will I be branded a commie too? I did vote twice for President Barack Obama, the current Commander in Chief. Does that mean I'm brainwashed by the liberal right wing media also?

I have a family friend who does anger management counseling pro bono if any there are any takers. Nothing wrong with a little constructive self examination now and then. Helps with the blood pressure at any rate. Let me know.

Peace out,

-bushman
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 10:47am PT
If I say the word 'love thy neighbor' will I be branded a commie too? I did vote twice for President Barack Obama, the current Commander in Chief. Does that mean I'm brainwashed by the liberal right wing media also?

Yeah, you're either brainwashed or a fool. Especially voting for him the second time...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 10:57am PT
Hey Dingus, you'll be happy to know I may start contracting with the Navy or Air Force as a 'technician'.

Does that qualify as a 'served-nik'.?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 11:12am PT

Bicycle Repairman is just keeping the world safe from global Communism.


These are the 'idiots' I'm talking about. They have no clue, and don't operate in reality. I work in reality, logic, and solving problems.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 7, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Damn...wish I could vote for Barack a "third" time, but Hillary will do. Maybe we can get Obama's great start all the way up to single payer.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 7, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
Blueringworm - you're priceless. Especially when you pretend that you're not just another brainwashed neo-fascist mouth-breather. I say that with my sincerest attempts to be fair to you.

Perhaps you can help all of us lesser beings by providing a list of carefully itemized (and verifiable) points explaining what these clearly non-existent commies are against that makes them against "anything American". Since you lack the intelligence to do this job properly, I expect to see a LONG list of verifiable facts, since such a ridiculously sweeping statement has to cover a lot of ground. You can start by answering my question about whether you think it's fair for 1% of the U.S. population to control 37% of its wealth. Unlike you, I cited sources for this figure, and even included one of your favourites - The Daily Mail - in a failed attempt to encourage you to be objective when quoting your ludicrous crap.

You haven't answered a single question of mine that hasn't come out of the pages of Mein Kampf - or Fox "news". People who aren't psychotic or stupid don't consider your sources to be objective.

I might be wrong here, but often lizards like you dare to refer to themselves as Christians, so are you familiar with the Sermon on the Mount? Christ would spit on someone who has defiled his name as much as phonies like you and your buddies have done.

Have you EVER gotten laid? Has your partner ever responded with anything other than gritted teeth? I didn't think so. Try a little tenderness next time. Sorry to get personal, but you really have to do something to develop a sense of kindness.

Oh, yeah - I'm not a communist, and I made that as clear as daylight on my first post. Unlike you, I would be enough of a man to admit it.

God help the United States AND the U.S. armed forces if they're desperate enough to scrape the bottom of the barrel hard enough to approach white trash like you for advice.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
Damn...wish I could vote for Barack a "third" time, but Hillary will do. Maybe we can get Obama's great start all the way up to single payer.


This is the problem with people like you, you'll blindly vote Democrat without thinking. I saw Obama for what he was from the outset. But you'll probably keep making excuses for him.

It's all the Repub's fault....
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 7, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
For those who are as horrified as I am to realize that blueringworm is actually serious about his rants, please ask your psychology profs to check him out. While I admit that I'm not a psychiatrist, paranoid and psychotic are what I'd bet the farm on.

What really scares me is that he appears to think that the U.S. military wants his advice. If this is not yet another one of his delusions, be afraid. Be very afraid.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
Stewart, do you have a question for me?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 7, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
blueringworm: Point form from VERIFIABLE sources - not Fox news or Mein Kampf:

-What on earth do you mean when you say "anything American?"
-Do you think it is fair for 1% of U.S. citizens to control 37% of the nation's wealth?

Duuuh. Psychotic, paranoid, and dumber than a bag of hammers.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
-Do you think it is fair for 1% of U.S. citizens to control 37% of the nation's wealth?

Yes. How should "fair" be defined in your world?

Or would it be "unfair" to tax people more highly because they are more successful? Or more fiduciarally wise.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 7, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
It's nice having people like you around Bluey. Wonderful folks who operate only with logic and reason and never succumb to party affiliation or prejudice. You sir are truly noble...I won't drink to that but I am sure you will.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
Well, Jim, I am drinking to your comments.

I can think with compassion and emotion, but my default position, the primary switch, is logic and reason.

Cheers, Jim, I'll raise my whiskey glass to ya!
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Sep 7, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
Or would it be "unfair" to tax people more highly because they are more successful? Or more fiduciarally wise.

Fiduciary (noun): In law, a person in a position of authority whom the law obligates to act solely on behalf of the person he or she represents and in good faith. Examples of fiduciaries are agents, executors, trustees, guardians, and officers of corporations. Unlike people in ordinary business relationships, fiduciaries may not seek personal benefit from their transactions with those they represent.


Are you saying that the top 1% are just holding onto all the wealth on our behalf, and acting with our best interests in mind?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
blueringworm: Please tell me that this is your idea of a joke. Most of that money was stolen from hard-working citizens as a result of corporate tax breaks passed by your war criminal president and his accomplices.

So much for the Sermon on the Mount.

Now let's see the verifiable list of the "anything American" values that non-fascists are supposedly against, you sick little fart.

Have you EVER been laid? By a human being, I mean.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
Are you saying that the top 1% are just holding onto all the wealth on our behalf, and acting with our best interests in mind?


Nope, they're doing what you and I would do, or any other sane person.

Cover their ass, and look out for themselves.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
blueringworm: Please tell me that this is your idea of a joke. Most of that money was stolen from hard-working citizens as a result of corporate tax breaks passed by your war criminal president and his accomplices.

So much for the Sermon on the Mount.

Now let's see the verifiable list of the "anything American" values that non-fascists are supposedly against, you sick little fart.

Have you EVER been laid? By a human being, I mean.

Dude, you are starting to act insane. Get a grip.

I have a child, I have f*#ked mucho pussy, so do you have a SPECIFIC question i need to answer? Please be cogent...
jstan

climber
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:12pm PT
I have f*#ked mucho pussy
B/R

Wow!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
blueringworm: I am perfectly sane, unlike you. In addition, my parents would have done the world a favour and strangled me at birth if they suspected that I was going to mutate into a piece of human dung like yourself.

I was raised to actually care about those less fortunate than myself, and literally (that means for real) actually gave my last dollar to a homeless old lady. Hope you don't believe in God, because I can guarantee you that you'll never meet him.

No. I can't believe that a human female would willingly let you touch her - even for money. By the way, the phrasing of your answer is an affront to women (and men) with even an atom of class.

If you have a kid, please put him up for adoption. One of you on this planet is one too many.

Oooh... cogent... Did someone in your asylum buy you a thesaurus? Again, for the what? Hundredth time? WHAT ARE THE "ANYTHING AMERICAN" VALUES that non-fascists are opposed to? USE VERIFIABLE SOURCES FOR YOUR ANSWER.

I understand that the use of capitals is considered to be shouting. That's what people do when they try to communicate with people who appear to be deaf. Or pig-ignorant.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
Blue...When did you join the yellowstone club...?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
Do you think it is fair for 1% of U.S. citizens to control 37% of the nation's wealth?

The little Marxist prince has been that one percent's best friend.


They've done better with him than anyone since Roosevelt.
crankster

Trad climber
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
I wasn't aware John Boehner was a Marxist. Thanks for sharing.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
Why would a Marxist help the top 1%?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
I was raised to actually care about those less fortunate than myself, and literally (that means for real) actually gave my last dollar to a homeless old lady. Hope you don't believe in God, because I can guarantee you that you'll never meet him.

What kind of person hopes that a nice guy like me never meets God? Do you really feel that?

No. I can't believe that a human female would willingly let you touch her - even for money. By the way, the phrasing of your answer is an affront to women (and men) with even an atom of class.

Maybe I'll have my wife read this. You're a small, petty man. I know her, and she'd concur.
jstan

climber
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
Do we really need to do this to ourselves?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 7, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
MUCHO MOOSIE..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
Mr. Stannard, I stand for certain values that I'd hope you'd respect. I thought you'd be with with me on this one..

All talk of the ladies aside.....
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 7, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
f*#kin' sad excuse for a thread...from any angle.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
glanton, do you ever post climbing sh#t?

Or are you just some cling-bot to right wingers?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 7, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
I don't give a rat's ass what your wife thinks. Or you,either, if you weren't polluting the internet with your hateful fascist propaganda.

Small, petty man? This from the guy who is attempting to start a reign of terror against a non-existent threat to the United States, and STILL hasn't the balls to itemize in an academically defensible way the "ANYTHING AMERICAN" these non-existent legions of commies are against.

I'm not a religious scholar, but I'm at least passingly familiar with the Sermon on the Mount, and I don't recall a single word that this Jesus guy said about evil greedheads being welcomed into God's loving arms.

There's a series of films that were shown to U.S. troops during World War Two titled "Why We Fight". I suggest that you (and everyone else, for that matter) check it out. There isn't a single word in that series that said these servicemen (and women) were supposed to be fighting for a world where greed was viewed with anything less than utter contempt. 420,000 U.S. citizens died to create a better America. You dishonour their sacrifice. You aren't just a disgrace to their name, but also a disgrace to everything good and decent in the human race.

I look forward to someone posting their psych. prof's assessment of your mental illness. As I stated earlier, I'll bet the farm on psychotic and paranoid.



Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 7, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
To whom it may concern,

I'm not sure calling me an idiot for saying who I voted for is all that patriotic, but as far as I know those of us posting here are probably members of democratic nations on one shore or another, and here in the US it's our civic duty to vote, and our right to do so is protected by our constitution. Sometime back, not just the politicians but also many of the citizens of this nation began to get really ugly with each other over wether one belonged to one party or another and that trend seems to be spiraling out of control.

The fact is that it's not illegal to claim to be a communist in this country ( I am not a communist) doesn't seem to deter those living in a post Cold War era from continuing with Senator Joseph McCarthy's witch hunt of the 1950s. There is no Soviet Union and we are not under attack from Cuba, China, Venezuela, North Korea, or any other communist nation that I know of at present. The primary current enemy of democracy that I do know of are radicalized funamentist Islamic terrorist with whom we've been fighting a war with since well before some of us might remember, probably going back to the mid 1970s (Iran hostage crisis, maybe earlier).

The point is, we're all probably allies in this battle against terrorism, being from one nation or another. When we attack each other for having contrary ideas and opinions, we will continue to lose the war against our enemies, wether they be perceived or real.

I shall now return to my usual irreverent self who prefers to not take himself all that seriously, except when it comes to the important things (fill in things here .)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 7, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
and even included one of your favourites - The Daily Mail

Hey Stewart, hold on, I used to work on the Daily Mail, well, Ireland on Sunday (now rebranded the Irish Mail on Sunday - Associated Newspapers).

Not as conservative as its British mother. I broke some pretty good stories. But still, I needed the money and those news desk and reporting shifts were pretty 'lucrative', so to speak (enough to pay the rent and groceries).

Funny Story. I am in the newsroom, Saturday around 5pm (17:00). Open newsroom, like reporters, news editor, columnists, subs, layout designers, etc.

Managing editor Martin Clark, a Brit brought over from England, comes into the newsroom screaming: "We are on deadline, where is the copy you f*cking Irish. You godd*amn f*cking Irish."

This to a room full of Irish (except me). Hilarious. He was replaced shortly thereafter.

EDIT

I also worked a couple of years on the Daily Express in London (Blackfriars), a bit conservative, but also weekend shitfts on the Sunday Mirror, (High Holborn, Fleet Street, at the tail end of the Fleet Street journalism era) very liberal. I also have some stories from those times.

Oh yes, back to fighting Commies under the bed. Bluey, give it a rest and seek assistance besides the booze you drink.
Degaine

climber
Sep 8, 2014 - 12:24am PT
bluering wrote:
This is the problem with people like you, you'll blindly vote Democrat without thinking. I saw Obama for what he was from the outset.


Ironic statement coming from you, considering that you blindly voted for Bush twice.

I obviously do not have the same opinion of Obama as you do, but I never considered Obama to be anything other than the better candidate in 2008 and 2012. He is not perfect, nor has he ever been, but I had no desire for McCain or Romney to sit in the White House.

What about that don't you get?

Or perhaps you just find it easier to generalize and then dismiss?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 8, 2014 - 09:50am PT
There's a Commie in every Liberal's closet patiently awaiting the right time to emerge and take over the poor morally defenseless USA.

While the Liberals are tearing down America's moral fiber and trying to disarm the right wing whackos of their AR15s and Uzis they are secretly amassing arsenals of AK-47's and RPGs. Just in case, they are sharpening their swords as well.
(I've been over at bluey's favorite shooting range sighting in my AK. Durned thing has no accuracy but lays down a good covering fire)

The Liberals and Islamists will be following the Commies. ISIS will be the shock troops, raping the women and murdering the children.
All of them unknowingly following Putin's bidding.

All neo-cons who don't convert will be shot or sterilized.
It will be the End Of The World As We Know It.

Leon Skouzen said so 50 years ago.

bluering is the Latter Day Prophet and we ignore him at our peril.
jstan

climber
Sep 8, 2014 - 10:01am PT
What should be our main concern?

Our decision making.

When you have white paint on your paint brush, everything is white. Was it 1953 when our CIA and BP overthrew Mossadegh's democratically elected government in Iran. We conveniently forget that had that been done to us we would still be majorly pissed. And rightly so. We ignore the high level of education in Iran. Ours is by no means higher. Should we not let all of this honestly guide our decisions?

During the dark ages our interface with followers of Mohammed were not altogether successful. Grasp this. They will not be altogether successful now. But can we do better if we acknowledge both our history and the dynamic range in their populations. Perhaps we need to scope out the question what are the arab populations going to eat after we have used up all their oil? There are going to be many billions of them. Can't put that many on reservations. Is that what we have in mind?

Let them eat sand?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 8, 2014 - 10:04am PT
jstan
please stop talking sense. You're giving me a headache.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 8, 2014 - 10:27am PT
The commie label is so 80s. We need a new boogie man. Seriously the only communist countries are North Korea, Cuba and China. We are up to are neck economically with China, we are almost in bed with Cuba and North Korea is a freaking joke.

Bluering really fits the profile of an upstanding jihadist.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 8, 2014 - 10:34am PT
I think that the Barbeque Coalition is currently America's greatest threat.....especially the ones using charcoal.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 8, 2014 - 10:51am PT
jstan good post.

I'm hard pressed to think of an actual example of a communist run country, anywhere at any time.

Cuba, China, and N.Korea are fascist dictatorships, not communist. They have adopted communist trappings as cover.

One could make the case that Cuba and N.Korea are actually disguised monarchies.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 8, 2014 - 11:27am PT
No gosh darn it.

The totalitarian is Fred Beckey (hi Fred). He rules. Bluey is just an aberration. Fred for president, except like Arnie (ex-gov of California), they were not born here.

Oh well.

But they are both immigrants, so Bluering would never vote for them, as Bluey was born from pre-American immigrants. Before the Ice Age.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 8, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Sure am glad to see that there's a majority of posters on this thread who recognize blueringworm as the threat to democracy (and common decency) that he represents.

I'm not just calling this pathetic, evil little boy names for the fun of it. I started posting on this by attempting to rationally explain to him that there wasn't a realistic threat of a communist conspiracy to destroy "anything American".

Since that post, his replies have been restricted almost exclusively to sources from Fox news. He consistently refuses to cite sources that would not be the subject of ridicule in any respectable educational institution on planet Earth.

Also, although this thread was started by him to accuse those who don't subscribe to fascist propaganda as being against "anything American". I have truly lost count of how many times I have asked him to provide an objectively defensible list of the "anything American" valuse that these non-existent legions of commies oppose. He still oozes into the shadows whenever he is asked for factual information to explain why he started the thread in the first place.

I have pegged this infantile weasel as psychotic and paranoid, not just because I think that he's a pathetic excuse for a member of the human race, but because I sincerely believe that any responsible psychiatrist would consider such a diagnosis to be a slam dunk.

What scares the daylights out of me is that he is far from alone in his thinking, and I hope that those who believe that the United States is a nation that stands for liberty and justice for all have the strength to unite against the kind of lunatic hatred that infects these people. The survival of everything gentle, good and decent in the American national character is at risk.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 8, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
Dingus: thanks most sincerely for your post. I sleep a little bit easier at night when I am reminded that people like you exist down there. May good fortune accompany you wherever you go.

I'm still reeling in horror at his allegation that any human female had such poor taste as not to call the cops when he approached her.

Have you noticed that this evil little toad always runs away and hides whenever he is asked to provide verifiable information on the "anything American" non-fascists are apparently opposed to?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 8, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
If you think that communists are a threat to America in 2014 the world must be a very scary place for you with goblins in every closet and trolls under every bridge.
There are enough real problems facing America....falling behind many other countries in education for one, growing wage inequality another.
It has been a common tactic throughout the ages to use jingoistic slogans and fear mongering to deflect attention from real and present dangers.
Bluey, with his purported 130 IQ should be somewhat aware of that.

edit: If bluey wants to save America by becoming a congressman representing California, he better get a haircut and a shave. His current look is that of a southern redneck who uses his dirt bike mostly to get to his favorite noodling crick.
of course
I have the look of someone who wants to steal your lunch...one reason I never got into politics.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 8, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
Dr F: Is that a picture of blueringworm? If so, it's too bad we couldn't turn the clock back to the '60s, since his ideological "freedom loving" contemporaries would be delighted to rip both his beard and his hair off with their bare hands.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
During the dark ages our interface with followers of Mohammed were not altogether successful. Grasp this. They will not be altogether successful now. But can we do better if we acknowledge both our history and the dynamic range in their populations. Perhaps we need to scope out the question what are the arab populations going to eat after we have used up all their oil? There are going to be many billions of them. Can't put that many on reservations. Is that what we have in mind?

Was the bad 'interface' with Mohameddens our fault? Since the onset of Mohamed's presence, they have raped and conquered by force. Without mercy or diversity.

Let them eat sand?

Yes. F*#k them if they're intolerant of other religions. We accept moderate Muslims here, but we should be very intolerant of hateful ones who preach our own demise.

Sure am glad to see that there's a majority of posters on this thread who recognize blueringworm as the threat to democracy (and common decency) that he represents.

I'm not just calling this pathetic, evil little boy names for the fun of it. I started posting on this by attempting to rationally explain to him that there wasn't a realistic threat of a communist conspiracy to destroy "anything American".

Since that post, his replies have been restricted almost exclusively to sources from Fox news. He consistently refuses to cite sources that would not be the subject of ridicule in any respectable educational institution on planet Earth.

Also, although this thread was started by him to accuse those who don't subscribe to fascist propaganda as being against "anything American". I have truly lost count of how many times I have asked him to provide an objectively defensible list of the "anything American" valuse that these non-existent legions of commies oppose. He still oozes into the shadows whenever he is asked for factual information to explain why he started the thread in the first place.

I have pegged this infantile weasel as psychotic and paranoid, not just because I think that he's a pathetic excuse for a member of the human race, but because I sincerely believe that any responsible psychiatrist would consider such a diagnosis to be a slam dunk.

What scares the daylights out of me is that he is far from alone in his thinking, and I hope that those who believe that the United States is a nation that stands for liberty and justice for all have the strength to unite against the kind of lunatic hatred that infects these people. The survival of everything gentle, good and decent in the American national character is at risk.


Dude, I have a full-time job and a family life. I can't always be at your whim to answer your direct questions.

What was you question?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 8, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
Thanks for the info, Dr. F.

I was reading some earlier posts, and one of them claimed that blueringworm's I.Q. was supposed to be 130. That's great, because I was told that mine is 157 (honest). I guess this is yet more proof that I'm correct about everything, and blueringworm truly IS an idiot, relatively speaking.

I'm pretty sure that he IS, indeed - I.Q.s aside. Either that or he is a chickenshit little weasel for continuing to duck my perfectly reasonable request that he provide an academically defensible list of the "anything American" that people who aren't arseholes are supposedly against.

Don't forget for a second that the above accusation was why he started this thread in the first place, and he's still not man enough to explain himself.

Let's ask this guy if he knows what a schmuck(sp?) is.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 8, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
Dr. F....You're bros with Blue...? Are you in on the pussy mucho...?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 8, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
I take strong exception to most of bluering's political and some of his religious ideas. As he does with most of mine.
I've met him a couple of times and don't think he's a bad person, in fact I think he's a pretty decent father and husband.
Even decent people can have whacky ideas. And they are entitled to them.
And entitled to having them challenged.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
Stewart, what exactly is your f*#king question for me?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 8, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
blueringworm: read this carefully. It's really complicated, so you may need assistance.

YOU started this thread accusing anyone whose politics were to the left of Hitler of being against "anything American". With me so far? If not, find someone with an I.Q. of 131 to help you out.

Now, let's see the list, and it better be a long one, since such an appallingly sweeping statement has to cover a LOT of ground. Still with me?

It also has to be academically defensible, since people who aren't fascist arseholes are entitled to expect no less.

By the way - did the guy who gave us the Sermon on the Mount make it onto your list of commies?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
YOU started this thread accusing anyone whose politics were to the left of Hitler of being against "anything American".


Did I use those words? Or are you being disengenuous?

What is the specific question? Can't you ask a direct, simple question? I am a simpleton, afterall....
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 8, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
oozes into the shadows

I like that Stewart. Can I use that phrase for my autobiography? I was going to call it "Memoirs of an Idiot", but

Let's leave Bluey alone. He has enough problems.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 8, 2014 - 10:25pm PT

What is the specific question? Can't you ask a direct, simple question? I am a simpleton, afterall....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tHIS IS SOME FUNNY SH#TE


yOU gO cRAIG!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 9, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Patrick - yeah. Fill your boots. I haven't had time to copyright it and get rich.

blueringworm - are you actually incapable of answering a simple question? For additional guidance, read the post you used to START this idiotic and contemptible thread. Or maybe all of this is my fault - I've accidentally gone past the level of comprehension that a reasonable person should be able to expect from someone with a I.Q. score of 130.

Then tell me if the fellow who delivered the Sermon on the Mount was also a commie. Or an idiot for not charging his audience for the privilege of listening to him.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 9, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
Sorry about two posts in a row - my carpal tunnel syndrome is killing me attempting to give this guy a reality check - but this is priceless:

Using blueringworm's words verbatim:

25/2/10 - "Jesus was truly benevolent... not seeking power (as in not running for congress - oops - that's me), not greedy.

In response to my inquiry about whether it's unfair for 1% of the U.S. population to control 37% of the nation's wealth, and shortly before his immortal words about scoring "mucho pussy"

9/7/14 - Nope, they're doing what you and I would do, or any sane person. Cover their ass and look out for themselves.

Compare and contrast.

blueringworm, I'd sure hate to have you or any of your accomplices anywhere near me during a crisis.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
Sorry about two posts in a row - my carpal tunnel syndrome is killing me attempting to give this guy a reality check - but this is priceless:

Using blueringworm's words verbatim:

25/2/10 - "Jesus was truly benevolent... not seeking power (as in not running for congress - oops - that's me), not greedy.

In response to my inquiry about whether it's unfair for 1% of the U.S. population to control 37% of the nation's wealth, and shortly before his immortal words about scoring "mucho pussy"

9/7/14 - Nope, they're doing what you and I would do, or any sane person. Cover their ass and look out for themselves.

Compare and contrast.

blueringworm, I'd sure hate to have you or any of your accomplices anywhere near me during a crisis.


Not only are you misquoting me, but you're taking some of my answers to your questions and bending them totally out of context. I'm used to this typical behavior when one cannot argue or debate with facts and reason.

You resort to slander, name-calling, and distortion.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:16am PT
This being an entirely political conversation I regret having stepped into it.

Only this have I found to be true;

Politics belongs in the realm where nothing is sacred
so if you espouse any ethical, spiritual, or religious views
they are certain to go out the window when you walk
upon the stage of political theater.

-Bushman out
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
Bluering, didn't you say that you are now a Tea Party member

and your favorite politicians were Ted Cruz, Trey Gouty, Allen West, Sarah Palin,
and you voted for McCain and Romney because you could see that they were Solid Presidential Material, like 1000x better than Obama
Correct?

Didn't you post a link to Sarah Palin's speech that you were raving about from the Conservative/Republican/Fascist convention,
sorry I never listened to it, so I will have to take your word.

That all seems pretty accurate, Dr. F.

Tell you what, blueringworm - post the EXACT words from the postings I quoted, and let others decide for themselves what you said. I'll be happy to compare your version to the original.

You do the work! You're the one grabbibg my quotes!!! You should remember where they were on this thread.

Are you so deluded as to think that Fox news is a source of objective commentary on world events? Get a grip.

Depends on the show. Some of it is commentary, and some of it is hard news based in current facts.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 10, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
blueringworm: Here goes (every word verbatim):

0n 25/2/10: Karl, you're probably right about Jesus. The difference is that he was truly benevolent, not seeking power, not greedy. He wasn't bound by the laws of mankind.

Men (or women) cannot make communism work on any significant scale.

Dr. F., do you really expect people to read all that???

On 7/9/14 (in response to my question: Do you think it's fair for 1% of U.S. citizens to control 37% of the nation's wealth?)

Yes. How would fair be defined in your world?

Or would it be "unfair" to tax people more highly because they are more successful? Or more fiduciarally wise.

Later, the same day Byran (who had enough intelligence to use the definition of the word "fiduciary" properly) asked blueringworm "are you saying that the top 1% are just holding onto all the wealth on our behalf and acting with our best interests in mind?"

Blueringworm: Nope, they're doing what you or I would do, or any sane person.

Cover their ass and look out for themselves.

As I said, compare and contrast.

-Oh, yeah - as thanks for all my trouble, please supply us with the name(s) of the Fox news commentators who provide academically verifiable commentary on the issues of the day.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 09:58am PT
I stand by everything you just posted that I said. Where do you disagree with my points?

-Oh, yeah - as thanks for all my trouble, please supply us with the name(s) of the Fox news commentators who provide academically verifiable commentary on the issues of the day.


Bret Beier, Greta Van Susteran, Bill O'Reilly come to mind.

Ed Henry goes out of his way to be impartial, as does Bret. The problem is that many people on Fox are, in fact, "academically verifiable", but they appear biased because they are rightfully criticizing the administration. They are taking one side because logic/reason dictate that.

Also, WTH does "academically verifiable" mean? The last people I trust to be un-biased are academics.

I would simply use "factually verifiable".

Oh, I forgot that Jennifer Griffin and Catherine Herridge are totally awesome field reporters.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 11, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
blueringworm: well I still think you're a twisted little weasel, so nothing has changed here, either. As for your rejection of the Sermon on the Mount, I expect that Christ will be eager to discuss your contempt for his teachings when he meets you and your buddies.

I will, however, congratulate you for having the surprisingly idealistic trust in the 1%ers to stand by your "fiduciary" comment.

That list of "impartial" Fox news commentators is hilarious. I'd pay serious money to see even one of those robots defend their propaganda with objective facts, instead of slogans from the enema - oops - Tea Bag play book.

Bill O'Reilly? he's an infantile bully whose idea of making a point is by yelling at his victim and accusing him of being a traitor before cutting the guy's microphone out. Objective, indeed.

Oh, yeah. people who aren't fascists consider "academically verifiable" to be the basis of civilized discourse amongst people with at least a passing familiarity with logic. As I said it, you should try it some time.
crankster

Trad climber
Sep 11, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
Bill O'Reilly??? That explain everything.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 11, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
Here's how logic DOESN'T work:

-I have absolutely no proof that communists exist in any significant numbers in the U.S.
-I don't like progressive people, so I'll call them all commies, or communist dupes, because they're not really smart like me.
-I want to terrorize people who don't think like me.
-I'll NEVER accept any evidence that I'm mistaken about anything.
-I think it's perfectly reasonable for rich people to steal everything that they can from anyone who can't stop them.
-I reject the teachings of Christ, but I'll shout as loud as I can to the world that I defend Christian values.

Now, contrast and compare, from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English:

Christian: of Christ or his teaching; believing in, professing, or belonging to the religion of Christ; showing qualities associated with this; charitable, kind.

So, blueringworm, you and your fascist buddies should stop misrepresenting yourselves as Christians and call yourselves oh, I don't know... how about something more LOGICAL, like Judasists?

Here's another lesson in logic especially for you, blueringworm:

-it walks like a weasel.
-it looks like a weasel.
-it behaves like a weasel.
-it smells like a weasel.
-it probably is a weasel.

Now, THATS logical.

Oh - here's another definition for you, again from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English, blueringworm:

Communism: social system in which property is vested in the community and each member works for the common benefit.

What an unspeakable evil to believe in, eh blueringworm?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 11, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
Roger Ailes came up with the concept while working for Nixon, he found if the Republicans just stayed in their own little bubble of lies and BS, that they could build a following of sheep that will go along with it just because they like the conformational-bias of finding fault with the Dems and liberals, and they can focus their hate on any powerless group they want to funnel blame on.

This should be reworded:
Goebbels came up with the concept while working for Hitler, he found if the Nazis just stayed in their own little bubble of lies and BS, that they could build a following of sheep that will go along with it just because they like the conformational-bias of finding fault with the Jews and Gypsies and Socialists, and they can focus their hate on any powerless group they want to funnel blame on.

Ailes just stole a page out of Goebbels' playbook. And it totally resonated with Tricky Dick.
jstan

climber
Sep 11, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
U.S. Income Inequality Higher Than Roman Empire's Levels: Study
The Huffington Post | By Jillian Berman
Posted: 12/19/2011 5:30 pm EST Updated: 12/19/2011 5:33 pm EST

Many tout the U.S. as the Roman empire of the modern world. But as it turns out, that comparison may not be all good.

Income inequality in America is at levels even higher than those in ancient Rome, according to a recent study from two historians, Walter Schiedel and Steven Friesen, cited by Per Square Mile. After analyzing papyri ledgers, biblical passages and other previous scholarly estimates, the researchers found that the top one percent of earners in Ancient Rome controlled 16 percent of the society's wealth. By comparison, the top one percent of American earners control 40 percent of the country's wealth, according to Vanity Fair. (h/t ThinkProgress)

The findings add to the growing chorus of studies and criticisms indicating that the wealth gap is hitting truly remarkable levels. The top one percent saw their incomes rise by 275 percent between 1979 and 2007, according to the Congressional Budget Office, while the bottom fifth of earners only saw their incomes grow by 20 percent during that same period.

Those looking forward to the method France used to correct this state of affairs in 1790 might consider the only person who faced upward on the guillotine

was Robespierre.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
Here's how logic DOESN'T work:

-I have absolutely no proof that communists exist in any significant numbers in the U.S.
-I don't like progressive people, so I'll call them all commies, or communist dupes, because they're not really smart like me.
-I want to terrorize people who don't think like me.
-I'll NEVER accept any evidence that I'm mistaken about anything.
-I think it's perfectly reasonable for rich people to steal everything that they can from anyone who can't stop them.
-I reject the teachings of Christ, but I'll shout as loud as I can to the world that I defend Christian values.

Now, contrast and compare, from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English:

Christian: of Christ or his teaching; believing in, professing, or belonging to the religion of Christ; showing qualities associated with this; charitable, kind.

So, blueringworm, you and your fascist buddies should stop misrepresenting yourselves as Christians and call yourselves oh, I don't know... how about something more LOGICAL, like Judasists?

Here's another lesson in logic especially for you, blueringworm:

-it walks like a weasel.
-it looks like a weasel.
-it behaves like a weasel.
-it smells like a weasel.
-it probably is a weasel.

Now, THATS logical.

Oh - here's another definition for you, again from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English, blueringworm:

Communism: social system in which property is vested in the community and each member works for the common benefit.

What an unspeakable evil to believe in, eh blueringworm?


Another gem captured in time. Spoken like a true believer in communism. I'll deconstruct it when I get some time.

Stewey, while you have your dictionary out, look up 'logic' and 'fact'. I think you have them wrong...

EDIT: Jstan, you're really gonna post an editorial from the HuffPo as a relevant article?

Meh.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 11, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Rejoice, rejoice....Bluey is breathing new life into McCarthyism. It's been over half a century since we enjoyed that show...far, far too long.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Glanton, if you knew you me you would never make those remarks...

You think you do though. I fit your mold. Who's the real bigot?

EDIT:
Rejoice, rejoice....Bluey is breathing new life into McCarthyism. It's been over half a century since we enjoyed that show...far, far too long.

If you look at the facts, McCarthy was right! But he didn't lead the bigger crusade against commies in Hollywood. It was others.

Even Bogart and Bacall later admitted to being lured in to this group unknowingly. They later denounced them. They were used.

But the commies of today are much different. They don't use the c-word. They just promote the philosophy. And when you call them out on it, look out!

They call you a McCarthyite, or delusional, or paranoid. Whatever.

What's kinda funny is how many people here are defending the commie philosophy. And are hating on me for pointing it out!

It's telling.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
What did McCarthy do that was wrong? Keep in mind the time when he raised the alarm.

Was McCarthy wrong? In Hollywood there were card-carrying members of the CPUSA. It is well documented. There was reason to be suspicious at that time.

Bogart and Bacall denounced these commies too!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 11, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Judas, oops - blueringworm - look those words up yourself, you pathetic bastard.

I believe it was in my first posting that I not only made it clear that I wasn't a communist, but had relatives that were victims of Stalinism, which incidentally has nothing to do with the teachings of Karl Marx.

Marx, from my admittedly limited understanding of his works, developed (to, again, my admittedly limited understanding), theories that proposed the creation of a political utopia that looked great on paper, but unfortunately he forgot to factor human nature into the equation.

Not only did I deny any communist affiliation, I mentioned that when monsters who call themselves communists take over a revolution, their first victims are almost always progressive non-communists. Try to pay attention to this, you pathetic fool.

For example:

-The Spanish Civil War attracted idealists from all over the planet to protect a democratic government from a Fascist rebellion. The Soviet Union was the only nation that would provide these freedom fighters with weapons to defend democracy. Unfortunately, along with the weapons came Stalinist political commissars to indoctrinate these idealists. Not surprisingly, Stalinist fanatics were not often welcomed by those who had functioning bullshit detectors, which often cost these defenders of democracy a bullet in the head after show trials conducted by these Stalinist goons.

Assuming you are capable of reading anything other than Mein Kampf for your political education, I would suggest that you read (in chronological order) everything written by George Orwell to actually get a handle on this business. It will help you learn what a truly dumb-ass clown you are.

Don't you dare call me a communist, you snivelling toad. Unlike you, I have sufficient integrity to admit my political affiliations, and the only thing that I believe in without reservation is that we are only on planet Earth for a short time, and that it is our obligation to treat each other as kindly as possible.

Oh, yeah - and to resist Fascism.

That's what Jesus would want us to do.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
Stewey, communisim, or Statism, comes in many forms.

You got yer Stalinism, Marxism, yer Leninism (similar to Marxism), and all the rotten children that derived from them.

Sorry about your ancestors too! There were many victims, over many decades.

I have no bone to pick with you, but quite the opposite. America, as a capitalist republic, is probably the greatest empire that ever existed.

The documents that bind us to law are the most moral, decent documents ever created. The Declaration and the Constitution.

We've done some wrong, as all will do, but we always make sh#t right. And we are indeed are peaceful people.

Winston Churchill once quipped;

You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.

We always find the way.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 11, 2014 - 09:54pm PT
blueringworm: In response to your relatively civilized comments, I'll give you a relatively civilized response.

Anybody can call their political system anything that they want. I believe that the official name for North Korea is "The People's Democratic Republic of Korea."

As I pointed out much earlier, the different "communist" nations are often at war with each other as they are with nations of any other ideology.

I completely disagree with much of what else you've posted in your reply, by the way.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 10:33am PT
Stewey, you're entitled to your opinions, despite our disagreeing on many things.

It's ironic that you bring up the 'Democratic People's Republic of North Korea'. This is a common Marxist tactic, that is, to change the language to make it more palpable to the "masses". It sounds real nice.

China's the same way.

But it can be evidenced even here in the US. 'People For the American Way' (PAW), is a communist front group. Not overtly, of course, but by their philosophies. Sounds like a real patriotic group, right?

The whole term 'Progressive' was coined for the same reason. And also why the term 'traditional' has been smeared as old, outdated, and backwards-ass.

Leftists, commies, Marxists, or whatever always change the language of their policy to make it appear as something it is not. They have to sell it under the guise of a nicer name.

I just can't understand why so many suckers still buy it. People don't think, they don't listen or analyze. They just take the bait when it sounds all cozy and nice.

EDIT: Dr. F, there is very little that I fear. One of the things that everybody should fear though is the transformation of America into a socialist state. It's happening slowly, even as some Euro countries have started to realize their experiment with socialism is a failure.

Communism is indeed almost dead, but the philosophy is still alive in some circles. They just call it different names.
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Sep 12, 2014 - 10:44am PT
I see. Sort of like when Commies made it legal to arrest citizens and hold them indefinitely without charging them with a crime, and called it the Patriot Act.

Or when they introduced a socialist system of standardized testing in public schools and called it No Child Left Behind.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 11:23am PT
I see. Sort of like when Commies made it legal to arrest citizens and hold them indefinitely without charging them with a crime, and called it the Patriot Act.

Yeah, that's more like fascism.

Or when they introduced a socialist system of standardized testing in public schools and called it No Child Left Behind.


Common Core is even worse, and yeah, it's Marxist re-wiring of our kids. And f*#k! I have a kid in first grade now. I've got my eyes wide open on his homework.
jstan

climber
Sep 12, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Blu:
Your son has no idea how lucky he is.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 12, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
so bluey
The US is ranked very low among the all developed nations in education. And we're falling further behind in every measure.
in 2012:
Math: #36 behind Slovakia, Russia, Spain, Italy and Portugal.
Science: #28
Reading: #24

in 2009:
Math: 31
Science: 23
Reading: 17

How about some "communist" countries for comparison
oh, wait, I can't find any..........
except maybe Shanghai China
#1 in Math, Science AND Reading, 2012 and 2009

Among the OECD
Overall, 30 nations had higher percentages than the U.S. of students at the "advanced" level of mathematics. The only OECD countries with worse results were Portugal, Greece, Turkey, and Mexico. Six percent of U.S. students were "advanced" in mathematics compared to 28 percent in Taiwan. The highest ranked state in the U.S. (Massachusetts) was just 15th in the world if it was compared with the nations participating in the PISA. 31 nations had higher percentages of "proficient" students than the U.S. Massachusetts was again the best U.S. state, but it ranked just ninth in the world if compared with the nations participating in the PISA.

What do you propose?
Less tax money for schools?
A bible on every desk?
None Dare Call It Treason on the required reading list?

Sending all those wetback kids back to where they came from?
What would Joe McCarthy recommend?

Or do you think the OECD is also a socialist/communist organization and biases it's data?
WAIT: I've just figgered out a solution: stop all standardized testing so the OECD can't judge us.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
What do you propose?
Less tax money for schools?
A bible on every desk?
None Dare Call It Treason on the required reading list?

More money won't fix the problem.
Bibles may help, but that's for private schools. (look at their records!).

Sending all those wetback kids back to where they came from?
What would Joe McCarthy recommend?

Yes. Send them back. Ya wanna help them? Then we should invade and show them how to run a f*#king civil society! But you're prolly opposed to that. You must hate children and poor people!

Or do you think the OECD is also a socialist/communist organization and biases it's data?
WAIT: I've just figgered out a solution: stop all standardized testing so the OECD can't judge us.

All bullsh#t.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 12, 2014 - 03:11pm PT
Judas, er, blueringworm: there really isn't any hope for you. For starters, you're not particularly bright, so pretending that you have any special powers of discrimination when it comes to political analysis is laughable.

The reason that you've pissed off pretty well everyone on this forum who isn't a fascist is that you are incapable of accepting the simple reality that the last thing the U.S. needs to worry about is some kind of communist hell unleashed upon it by uncounted legions of conspirators who you claim are cunning enough to foment their odious agenda without a single legitimate news source or government agency catching so much as a whiff of these plans.

Your list of Fox "news" sources is beyond laughable - Bill O'Reilly is a pimple on the ass of journalism - so much so that if he was to undergo an amazing conversion to the other side of the fence of reason, my advice to him would be to keep his bullying mouth shut and study the Sermon on the Mount.

The United States has countless REAL problems to worry about - for starters, the TRILLION dollars stolen from the public purse by Bush and his war criminal parade of co-defendants to prosecute a completely needless war whose outcome (beyond obscenely lining the pockets of the Bush gang) was to cause the needless death of over 100,000 Iraqis and thousands of members of the U.S. armed forces, not to mention the uncounted numbers of traumatized military survivors who are now living on the streets.

Your nation's largest trading partner, China, is a "communist" country (in name only). Nevertheless, if you're so paranoid about the evil commies, why don't you devote your energies to get the U.S. to organize a total trade boycott against that nation? You never know - you might succeed long enough to witness the total collapse of the U.S. economy - shortly before mobs of enraged citizens of all political stripes lynched you.

Ignoring factual criticism of your ridiculous views without countering with factual responses does nothing to enhance your credibility - it just proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that you have fall out of a particularly tall stupid tree, and hit every branch - hard - on the way down.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
the last thing the U.S. needs to worry about is some kind of communist hell unleashed upon it by uncounted legions of conspirators who you claim are cunning enough to foment their odious agenda without a single legitimate news source or government agency catching so much as a whiff of these plans

You start off on the wrong foot...

The United States has countless REAL problems to worry about - for starters, the TRILLION dollars stolen from the public purse by Bush and his war criminal parade of co-defendants to prosecute a completely needless war whose outcome (beyond obscenely lining the pockets of the Bush gang) was to cause the needless death of over 100,000 Iraqis and thousands of members of the U.S. armed forces, not to mention the uncounted numbers of traumatized military survivors who are now living on the streets

Is Obama liable for additional TRILLIONS?

Your nation's largest trading partner, China, is a "communist" country (in name only). Nevertheless, if you're so paranoid about the evil commies, why don't you devote your energies to get the U.S. to organize a total trade boycott against that nation? You never know - you might succeed long enough to witness the total collapse of the U.S. economy - shortly before mobs of enraged citizens of all political stripes lynched you

Should we re-adjust trade policy to encourage more domestic manufacturing? Instead of China?
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 12, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
Judas - oops - blueringworm: do you seriously think that continually cutting and pasting the postings of rational people with a mercifully brief, but dumb question underneath qualifies as an intelligent reply? Don't forget for a second that you have never posted a response to any critical postings that would last through 5 seconds of debate by objective human beings. Not. Once.

So how about amazing me by rationally answering my question about the benefits provided to the U.S. public and the world in general by the Bush administration's theft of ONE TRILLION dollars from the national treasury? After that, you can explain what thousands of U.S. military personnel and over 100,000 Iraqi civilians died for.

As I noted earlier, over 420,000 U.S. citizens died in World War Two - not only to rid the world of Fascism, but also to create a better nation for all Americans. The danger of your contemptible assertions being taken seriously in this evil excuse for a thread is to betray their selfless gift to humanity by making a mockery of their sacrifice in your temple of paranoid greed.

The entire planet got a glimpse of your true character when you committed a particularly vile and irrational piece of ignorant spite - you accused a veteran of the Viet Nam War of being a communist. Even a slime bag like you should have enough contact with reality to offer that poor man an unconditional and convincing apology.

The seasons pass, but you'll ALWAYS be an evil, pig-ignorant fool.

And...

Since you and your clones incredibly claim to worship Him, I should advise you that Christ will be waiting to have a brief talk with you guys when you leave this planet, and he's going to be very disappointed with your non-existent contribution to the betterment of humanity. As a Jewish victim of the Holocaust said to his tormentors shortly before being sent to the gas chambers, "God is watching."



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2014 - 12:17am PT
So how about amazing me by rationally answering my question about the benefits provided to the U.S. public and the world in general by the Bush administration's theft of ONE TRILLION dollars from the national treasury?
There is no "rational" explanation really. They would tell you that it was to keep the economy from crashing, or the banking industry. Kinda like what Obama did as well with his trillion dollar "injection".

After that, you can explain what thousands of U.S. military personnel and over 100,000 Iraqi civilians died for.

To make Iraq a "non-violent State", and a peaceful member of the world community. Haha! That worked out pretty well...

As in Germany and Japan, we should have left sizeable footprints there for a long time, but some people pulled everybody out and left a vacuum.

Since you and your clones incredibly claim to worship Him, I should advise you that Christ will be waiting to have a brief talk with you guys when you leave this planet, and he's going to be very disappointed with your non-existent contribution to the betterment of humanity. As a Jewish victim of the Holocaust said to his tormentors shortly before being sent to the gas chambers, "God is watching."

I live my life everyday as if God watches my every move. Kind of a good way to live. And I'm prepared to have an awesome discussion with Christ. I'm not perfect, no man is, but I do more good than bad despite what you think.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 13, 2014 - 08:56am PT
The stimulus, which was not a trillion dollars btw, created three million jobs and helped prevent the economy from tanking. In other words, it helped save capitalism from itself.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2014 - 09:27am PT
Dirt, is this where we start arguing about who's 'stimulus' was better?

It's been done before. I opposed all of this sh#t. Sometimes ya gotta let things crash. A 'reset'. Artificially inflating stuff causes bubbles that, guess what? Pop!
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 13, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
Judas - oops blueringworm: No, the invasion of Iraq was a war crime, and the world still holds Bush and his co-defendants accountable for the horrors he unleashed on the Iraqi people, not to mention, members of the U.S. armed forces. For. Nothing. Oh - maybe it gave that evil, inbred coward an excuse to put on the uniform he defiled and announce to the world... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

And then Dubya headed off to make sure that he and his accomplices got their split of the trillion dollars they stole from the U.S. public.

Your hypocritical claims to possess even an atom of spiritual integrity are laughable. Perhaps you can explain how your utter contempt for the Sermon on the Mount is going to get you the slightest welcome in the afterlife? I guess it will, but not in Heaven.

Glad to see that you continue to use Fox news as your only source of credibility. It makes it easier to understand the intellectual emptiness of your twisted assertions.

I continue to fascinated to see your use of carefully cut and pasted selections of the comments of rational human beings posting on this thread followed by dumb-ass questions and non-sequiturs. I suppose it saves you the trouble of actually saying something that would qualify as intelligent.

So, when can we expect your heart-felt apology for accusing a wounded veteran of being a communist? Surely even you must admit that such a loathsome comment is unmistakeable proof of how low you will sink to pursue your twisted agenda.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 13, 2014 - 07:30pm PT


we should invade and show them how to run a f*#king civil society!

Yeah, like we did with America.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 13, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
Judas... oops... blueringworm:

Nope, couldn't find a single word in the Bible that said war criminals and greedheads are likely to be welcomed into the arms of a loving God (or his kid - you know, the guy who wrote the Sermon on the Mount).

Better make sure you've got lots of tanning lotion crammed into your coffin when you croak. You'll need it and I doubt that the Bush family and their friends will have any to spare.

Oh, yeah. I DID find something else that was interesting, but a bit confusing. It was all about rich people, camels and needles. Perhaps you can explain.

By the way, during World War Two, the army of Nazi Germany had belt buckles that said Gott mit uns(sp?) which translates to "God is with us." I'm pretty sure that He wasn't on THEIR side, either.

So noble of you to admit that you're not perfect, although you've made that fact abundantly clear since the beginning of this evil thread. Tell you what, though... if you spend the rest of your twisted life doing good works, reasonable people might start to refer to you as "not a complete arsehole."

I also await proof that you have at least an atom of common decency by providing an apology to the wounded veteran that you so cruelly and casually accused of being a communist. Unlike you, he put his ass on the line for his country - he deserves better, especially from you.

By the way, when are you going to explain what the "anything American" that non-greedheads are supposed to be against? You keep dodging that question like your chicken dung excuse for a President that you have such a crush on did with the opportunity to prove his manhood during the Viet Nam War.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 13, 2014 - 11:53pm PT
It's been done before. I opposed all of this sh#t. Sometimes ya gotta let things crash. A 'reset'. Artificially inflating stuff causes bubbles that, guess what? Pop!

Be aware of this, climbers: If this guy doesn't like how you are climbing, and you slip, he will deliberately let you DECK, because he thinks you need a "reset".

Keep that in mind......
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Sep 14, 2014 - 04:53am PT
Blue wrong, were you traumatized when they had you hide under your desk? Your mindset is locked in the fifties. ( the crew-cut racist fifties, btw). Don't burden your kid with that hate.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 14, 2014 - 10:08am PT
Don't burden your kid with that hate.
best rejoinder yet.
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Sep 14, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
I think I've got at least the glimmering of an idea of how to respond to the comments posted by the life form known as Judas blueringworm:

Keep asking the gutless little hypocrite to explain what he meant when he accused anyone that wasn't a fascist what he meant when he claimed that reasonable members of the human race in the United States are opposed to "anything American". I've asked him to explain this (I admittedly haven't kept a running total) somewhere around twenty times, and he has yet to come up with a coherent explanation as to why he started this sick thread in the first place.

He is also the guy who claims to make a living from the use of facts and logic, yet he has used neither - even once - in reply to the assertions of those who disagree with him. As he has proven, he is additionally too much of a coward to post a definition of what these words mean to him, possibly since they don't exist in the dictionary of acceptable terms he uses in his hateful ravings.

He continues to pretend that Bill O'Reilly and his zombie brethern aren't merely particularly vicious examples of what the term "white trash" means. To the contrary, he has proudly claimed that these slime bags are actually capable of unbiased news reporting.

Never forget that he is the guy who accused a wounded veteran of being a communist, and yet he still lacks the common decency to offer the guy a heartfelt apology.

Maybe he could get a job as an emetic. He'd make a fortune.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 14, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
I needed a good laugh so I read some of this thread. Thanks Blu
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 6, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/05/red-terror-elephant-tramples-communist-leader/#disqus_thread
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
May 1, 2015 - 11:20am PT
Comrades! Bluey! Greetings on International Worker's Day!

Spain 1936:
I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any
size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism.

Many of the normal motives of civilized life--snobbishness,
money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.--had simply ceased to exist. The
ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money--tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master.

Of course such a state of affairs could not last. It was simply a temporary and local phase in an enormous game that is being played over the whole surface of the earth. But it lasted long enough to have its effect upon anyone who experienced it. However much one cursed at the time, one realized afterwards that one had been in contact with something strange and valuable. One had been in a community where hope was more normal than apathy or cynicism, where the word 'comrade' stood for comradeship and not, as in most countries, for humbug

One had breathed the air of equality. I am well aware that it is now the fashion to deny that Socialism has anything to do with equality. In every country in the world a huge tribe of party-hacks and sleek little professors are busy 'proving' that Socialism means no more than a planned state-capitalism with the grab-motive left intact. But fortunately there also exists a vision of Socialism quite different from this. The thing that attracts ordinary men to Socialism and makes them willing to risk their skins for it, the 'mystique' of Socialism, is the idea of equality; to the vast majority of people Socialism means a classless society, or it means nothing at all.

And it was here that those few months in the militia were valuable to me. For the Spanish militias, while they lasted, were a sort of microcosm of a classless society. In that community where no one was on the make, where there was a shortage of everything but no privilege and no boot-licking, one got, perhaps, a crude forecast of what the opening stages of Socialism might be like. And, after all, instead of disillusioning me it deeply attracted me.
-- George Orwell

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
May 1, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
Right on, Fellow Worker.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
May 1, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
Guys... PLEASE give this a rest. It was an idiotic thread topic to begin with, so please let it rest in peace.
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
May 1, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
All imperialists, the Stalinist back stabbers, too!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Mar 4, 2016 - 09:22am PT
RIP
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0304-hochschild-spanish-civil-war-20160304-story.html

A historical milestone was passed on Sunday, with the death of Delmer Berg at the age of 100. Berg, who lived in Columbia, Calif., in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, was the last known survivor of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, as the several units of American volunteers who fought in the Spanish Civil War came to be called.

World War II has largely pushed that conflict out of our collective memory, but it was momentous for the people of Spain, and for the 40,000 volunteers from more than 50 countries, 2,800 of them American, who fought in it. Eighty years ago this July, a large group of right-wing army officers staged a coup against the democratically elected government of the Spanish Republic. They called themselves Nationalists and were soon led by Francisco Franco, a tough-talking young general who quickly outmaneuvered all of his rivals. The Nationalists hoped to seize power swiftly, but their efforts stalled and the war dragged on for nearly three years of brutal fighting and political massacres that left well more than 400,000 people dead.

No one can say exactly how the [Spanish] Republic might have evolved had it won the civil war. But ... [Spain] would have been spared the 36 years of Franco's harsh dictatorship.

Foreign volunteers eager to help the Republic began arriving in late 1936. In January 1937 an American battalion was formed and hastily thrown into combat the next month. Americans fought in most of the major battles that followed. About 750 of them died and a majority of the remainder were wounded, including Delmer Berg, who carried shrapnel in his liver for the rest of his life.

Who were they? They came from 46 states and every conceivable walk of life: the grandchildren of slaves (about 90 volunteers were African American), coal miners, a vaudeville acrobat, a rabbi, longshoremen, factory workers, college instructors, the son of a former governor of Ohio. The first American casualty he arrived before the American battalion was organized and fought beside British volunteers was Joseph Selligman Jr., a Swarthmore College student fatally wounded in the battle for Madrid. One of the last, killed a year and a half later, was James Lardner, a 24-year-old from a famous literary family, who traveled to Spain as a New York Herald Tribune correspondent and then decided to fight.

Britain, France and the United States all wanted to keep the Spanish conflict at arm's length. The only major nation willing to sell weapons to the beleaguered Spanish Republic was not another democracy it was Josef Stalin's Soviet Union. It was also Stalin who asked the world's Communist parties to support the Spanish Republic by recruiting volunteer soldiers.
The women who fought to be war correspondents
The women who fought to be war correspondents

Roughly three-quarters of the American volunteers were members of the Communist Party or its affiliated groups. In their illusions about the Soviet Union they were of course profoundly naive. But they were not fighting for the Soviet Union, they were fighting for Spain. And almost all of these men and women (about 75 American women went to Spain, mostly as nurses) felt that the conflict might be the opening battle of another world war. And in this they were right: Four years before the U.S. entered World War II, Americans were bombed by Nazi pilots in Spain.

Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini had immediately come to the aid of their ideological ally, Franco, sending aircraft, tanks, artillery, pilots, technicians and military advisors. Mussolini sent 80,000 ground troops as well. Hitler used the Spanish war to test out in combat the new weapons for the larger war he was planning: the Messerschmitt Bf-109 fighter, the Stuka dive bomber, the 88-millimeter artillery piece and more.

The Spanish Civil War was bewilderingly complicated. Within the republic were tensions between the Communists and the mainstream parties on one hand and, on the other, the Spanish anarchists and their allies, who largely controlled the northeastern corner of the country. George Orwell wrote about that conflict in his memoir, Homage to Catalonia. American volunteers were there too. One of them, Harry Milton of New York, fought in the same militia unit as Orwell, and was standing next to him in the trenches when the novelist received a bullet through his neck. Lois Orr, a remarkably observant 19-year-old from Louisville, Ky. (also Selligman's hometown), left the most extensive eyewitness account by any foreigner of daily life in anarchist Barcelona.

The Spain of the 1930s was hobbled by vast disparities of wealth, and no one can say exactly how the republic might have evolved had it won the civil war. But one thing is certain: The country would have been spared the 36 years of Franco's harsh dictatorship. His was a regime that packed huge numbers of people into crowded prisons and labor camps, branded the Nationalist symbol on the breasts of dissident women, practiced torture for decades and in World War II provided Nazi Germany with important submarine bases, crucial minerals for weapons manufacturing and 45,000 volunteer soldiers.

The Americans who fought in the Spanish Civil War are not usually considered part of the greatest generation, but they were. As Ernest Hemingway, who covered the war as a correspondent and later wrote about it in his novel, For Whom the Bell Tolls, put it: No men ever entered the earth more honorably than those who died in Spain.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 4, 2016 - 09:29am PT
Damn, Gary, I was gonna do a separate thread for Delmer.
Those guys really walked the walk.

RESPECT!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 4, 2016 - 11:38am PT
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 4, 2016 - 11:58am PT
Thanks for those 2 posts Gary. My mother's side of the family endured the Spanish Civil War in a small village, Tabara, in western Spain near Zamora. This area came under Fascist control early in the war and my grandfather found himself on the wrong side of this conflict and ended up on a Franco blacklist. He was able to evade Franco's death squads although some of his comrades were not as fortunate.

My paternal grandmother was Basque and her brother lived in Guernica. He was fortuitously in Argentina when the Nazi Condor Legion destroyed that city early on in the Civil War. When he heard the news, he was emotionally crushed. He did not return to northern Spain until after WWII. Although he remained a devout Catholic, he hated Franco and favored an independent Basque state.


Today, the "good fight" lives on in the form of the Podemos movement in Spain...

American progressives distressed about the prospect of being offered a choice this fall between a right-wing billionaire and a one-time corporate lawyer on the board of Wal-Mart, might look to Spain for a reminder that left-wing leaders with principles and charisma do still exist.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/02/spains-party-radical-left-refuses-support-centrist-coalition/
flatlandermcjack

Ice climber
South Dakota
Mar 4, 2016 - 12:23pm PT
where is Bernie sanders on the list of communists looking to destroy america
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 4, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
I'll start a list of people "looking to destroy America"...

Rush Limbaugh
Ted Cruz
Marco Rubio
Dick Cheney
Karl Rove
Koch Bros
Sean Hannity
Sarah Palin
Glenn Beck
Roger Ailes
James Inhofe
Michael Savage
Richard Perle
Donald Rumsfeld
Alex Jones
Frank Luntz
Ann Coulter
Wayne LaPierre
Cliven Bundy
.
.
.
.
.
.

I'd say the Trumpster is, at least, trying to destroy the Republican Party
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 08:55am PT
Yeah, the fascists during the Spanish Civil War were brutal. Along the lines of their communist brethren.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 5, 2016 - 09:01am PT
Steve, the communists were fighting against the fascists in Spain. So yeah, not brethren. Dolt.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 5, 2016 - 09:03am PT
If they were Spanish commies how were they not brethren? And Bluey is right,
it was horribly brutal on both sides. If the Repubs had won there would have been a
blood bath against the losers and amongst themselves for control. A no win situation.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 5, 2016 - 09:08am PT
Reilly you should pour your insouciance all over a chickenfried steak, 'tso thick


I don't think it was a no-win situation.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 5, 2016 - 10:08am PT
Cowpoke, I was very apprehensive about questioning yer grasp of English and I am greatly
relieved you took my temerity so graciously, even though I detest chicken-fried anything. It
is a pity we will never know what might have been, I just wish I was as sanguine as yerself
in my post-mortem. FWIW, the memorial at Valle de los Cados is very moving.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 5, 2016 - 10:44am PT
No question that both sides of the Spanish Civil War committed atrocities.

The intervention of Soviet backed Communists prior to and during the Spanish Civil War ultimately betrayed the cause of the Republic and undermined its cause against the Fascists. Although the Communists emphasized a unified proletarian movement against Fascism at all costs, the so-called Popular Front; in reality, they expended as much effort fighting amongst themselves (e.g., against Anarchists, Trotskyites, etc) as they did against Franco. This demoralized the Republic and ultimately lead to its self destruction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia
George Orwell became a staunch critic of authoritarian-style Communism, he never abandoned his commitment to democratic socialism. After the Civil War, Orwell wrote "No one who was in Spain during the months when people still believed in the revolution will ever forget that strange and moving experience. It has left something behind that no dictatorship, not even Franco's, will be able to efface."

In his Letter to Cyril Connolly, 8 June 1937, Orwell wrote "At last I really believe in Socialism which I never did before." A decade later he wrote: "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it."

Orwell attacked sections of the left wing press for suppressing the truth about Spain, indicting the Communists for instigating a "reign of terror"; and he never forgave Kingsley Martin, the editor of the New Statesman who turned down his articles on the Spanish Civil War on the grounds that they "could cause trouble." Malcolm Muggeridge remembered: "Once when we were lunching at a Greek restaurant in Percy Street he asked me if I would mind changing places. I readily agreed but asked him why. He said that he just couldn't bear to look at Kingsley Martin's corrupt face, which, as Kingsley was lunching at an adjoining table, was unavoidable from where he had been sitting before."
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 5, 2016 - 10:52am PT
I dunno if I would say that it was a self-ordained destruction. Surely there was infighting to the extreme, but the pressure from the fascisti during and after the war (and beyond) was the reason for the collapse of the Popular Front and the failure of the cenetistas to rejuvenate after 1976.


And I appreciate your deference Reilly. You dog. ;-)
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 5, 2016 - 11:32am PT
IMO the Fascists, who were essentially the Military, the Catholic church, and Monarchists, benefited from a "Clarity of Purpose" and, of course, backing from Nazi Germany. The Republic, on the other hand, seriously suffered from dissension amongst their ranks. It's nearly impossible to keep straight the alphabet soup of acronyms of the disparate groups that comprised the Republic and their allegiances, which evolved during the war. The best example is when Communists on May 3, 1937 stormed the telephone exchange in Barcelona which was occupied by the anarcho-syndicalist CNT (National Labor Party). This lead to several days of brutal street fighting, pitting different groups within the Republic against each other. Some consider this a turning point.

However, May 1937 offers important lessons to anarcho-syndicalists and all revolutionaries. The actions of the Communists show them for what they truly are, another ruling class in waiting. The actions of the anarchist ministers also serve as proof that the politics of the state are a dead end for the working class. The state is corrupt in itself and cannot be used to bring revolution just as a thorn bush cannot produce figs. Only the actions of the workers themselves can bring about revolution and a truly libertarian communist society.


http://www.solfed.org.uk/da/the-may-days-in-barcelona-1937
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2016 - 11:36am PT
Steve, the communists were fighting against the fascists in Spain. So yeah, not brethren. Dolt

I was referring more to what communists and fascists usually resort to in conflicts.

But I didn't know the commies fighting the Spaniards were commies. I just thought they were "freedom fighters". Same thing in their case I guess....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 5, 2016 - 11:41am PT
where is Bernie sanders on the list of communists looking to destroy america



Right at the very TOP damnit!! Just look at the scary little pinko, you can tell he's out to destroy us. Marching with MLK and the like....


Only Trump or Senor Cruz can make America Great Again!!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 5, 2016 - 12:31pm PT
Simple question Blue

Do you consider all progressive liberals or Democratic Socialists as Communists?
MattB

Trad climber
Tucson
Mar 5, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
Ooooh... I like this conversation about the Spanish Civil War...

"Red" vs "White" atrocities seem very different to me... as described above a few posts.

Red, more petty, juvenile, and condemned (by death) by the major left leadership

White (Francist) atrocities officially endorsed and executed. Lasted decades after the war ended.



tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 5, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
from Wikipedia...
Red Terror mostly directed toward the Catholic Church

President Manuel Azaa [President of the 2nd Spanish Republic when the Civil War broke out] made the well-publicized comment that all of the convents in Madrid were not worth one Republican life.

Figures for the Red Terror range from 38,000 to 110,000. In October 2008, the Spanish newspaper La Razon published an article on the number of murders of Catholic clergy members and religious people.

May 1931: 100 church buildings are burned while firefighters refuse to extinguish the flames.
1932: 3000 Jesuits expelled. Church buildings burned with impunity in 7 cities.
1934: 33 priests murdered in the Asturias Revolution.
1936: one day before July 18, the day the war started, 17 clergymen were murdered.
From July 18 to August 1: 861 clergymen murdered in 2 weeks.
August 1936: 2077 clergymen murdered, more than 70 a day. 10 of them bishops.
September 14: 3400 clergymen murdered during the first stages of the war.

White Terror
Estimates range from 150,000 victims to 400,000. Concrete figures do not exist, as many supporters and sympathizers of the Republic fled Spain after losing the Civil War. Furthermore, the Francoist government destroyed thousands of documents relating to the White Terror and tried to hide the executions of the Republicans. Gabriel Jackson states that: Thousands of victims of the White Terror are buried in hundreds of unmarked common graves (over 2,000), more than 600 in Andalusia alone. The largest of these is the common grave at San Rafael cemetery on the outskirts of Malaga (with perhaps more than 4,000 bodies). The Association for the Recovery of Historical Memory (Asociacin para la Recuperacin de la Memoria Historica or ARMH) says that the number of disappeared is over 35,000.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 7, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
Democratic Socialism does NOT = Communism

In this entertaining film excerpt, Slavoj Zizek explains Stalinism and Totalitarianism. There is some great historical footage in this video of elaborate pageantry in the form of May 9th Victory Day parades in Red Square probably from the early 1950s...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 7, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
Ricky! Re your comment:

There are only two tribes: Bluering's tribe and every other tribe. Strangely Communist is his shorthand for the latter.


Yeah. That makes sense to me, even though there's no sense it his thoughts.

SOB'S = Commies = those that don't agree with you.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 7, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
TT, I ain't gonna listen to no revisionist in a Chairman Mao shirt explain sh!t. ;-)

Here's Sergei Efimov being 'explained' to about Brezhnevism in 1978 when he
got a tad uppity with the immigration officer on behalf of Ben 'Dumbsh!t' Reid,
who showed up without a visa. LOL! They held him in a locked room at the
airport 'hotel' for a couple of days until the appropriate feathers got smoothed.


Phukking great photo if I do say so.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 7, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
TT, I ain't gonna listen to no revisionist in a Chairman Mao shirt explain sh!t. ;-)
I wouldn't post a video if I didn't think it was interesting and entertaining. This is not bullsh*t revisionist Stalinist propaganda. In this <10 min video, Zizek explains Totalitarianism in terms of "Absolutism" (the so-called Big Other) and compares Stalinist authoritarian Communist regimes to religious fundamentalism.

I luv your photo. How did you manage to take it without being detected?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 7, 2016 - 10:04pm PT
I thought that EXACT same thing when I watched the second to last Dem debate Cosmic. Or maybe a la Kim Jong Il. That neon calf-shit yellow thing bulletproof androgyne uni-top was TFM!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 7, 2016 - 10:08pm PT
TT, just jerkin' yer chain. I should have said "As a Russian Studies major
I don't need no splainin'." ;-)

I got that shot by pre-setting the focus and exposure and pulling my old
coughing trick to mask the shutter. I was also about 12' away and they
were going at it pretty good. There was some risk though - dude would
KNOTT have been happy!

The next day I almost copped it when I took a pic of the front doors of
the Party Headquarters. You'd have thought I was taking a shot up the
skirt of Brezhnev's old lady! Damn but if I didn't have to do some acting
like a dumbphuk American who can't speak Roosky! They were some
awesome doors, though.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Mar 7, 2016 - 10:35pm PT
Confiscating your film would have been the least of it.

In 1972 my German wife drove the corridor from Braunschweig to visit family in West Berlin. She got a flat tire on the way that delayed her ~1 hour. When she arrived at the corridor checkpoint to enter West Berlin where they normally search the vehicle the guard noticed the trip had taken more than the allotted time. She was escorted into a back room for interrogation to explain the 1 hour time gap. She recalls that the experience was somewhat intimidating but they released her unharmed.

Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Apr 19, 2016 - 09:33pm PT
4/20 is not just Hitler's birthday, but the start of the Battle of Berlin. We all know what happened there.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
May 1, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
Comrade Bluey! Greetings, Fellow worker, on International Worker's Day!


Don't forget: Organize and smash the State!

(Ever notice the eerie resemblance between Karl and Howard Kaylan?)
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 1, 2016 - 02:35pm PT

Happy May-Day y'all
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 1, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
May 1st, International Workers' Day: that reminds me of absurd communist ideals, like this one, looming out to us in from the past:

Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
May 1, 2016 - 05:56pm PT
Social Justice Warriors, Unite!!!
kattz

climber
May 1, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
It's good to have May 1 without the Communists and mandatory parade participation... Amen. "Democratic socialists", "socialists" and "communists" are the same thing, essentially, don't be fooled. The principles are: what's yours is mine and "we'll control you" and "if you're not with us, you're against us".
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 1, 2016 - 07:35pm PT
Norway??
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 1, 2016 - 07:35pm PT
"if you're not with us, you're against us".


[Click to View YouTube Video]
kattz

climber
May 1, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
Tami, I lived in USSR.

Yep, there're more and more signs of liberal-socialist coo-coo in the US...so don't laugh about mandatory communist parades that one had to partake in. May be you're next...The large corporations now give in to insanity, I notice, out of fear of lawsuits, and do things like sending out emails "suggesting" to donate to "migrants in Europe"...or sending out apologetic emails about how they support "all sexual orientations" on LGBT day...AKA sneaking political agenda everywhere. So , wait and you might have mandatory donations deducted from your paycheck soon (oops, you--and me-- already do have a bunch of them, by April 14)...or forced to participate in some bullshit diversity events, listening to some BS speeches. Or, someone will come up to you, like they were coming up to people in some university libraries or restaurants on the East Coast and demand you state support for some movement "OR ELSE" (like BLM members did)...the fear will be the feeling here, if these take over.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 1, 2016 - 07:52pm PT
I remember a soviet pilot who stole a mig and landed in Japan in the 80's.

After a while in America his observation was...

The USA did communism right.

Now we are busy f*#king it all up.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
wow, awesome thread!

All you commies partyin' and all can go fu*k yourselves. Have fun!!! Woo-hoo!

EDIT: (first page of this thread is ST classic!) (WTF is Standing Strong?)
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
May 2, 2016 - 07:31am PT
All you commies partyin'

Partying like it's Red October, baby!

As Ricky wrote a few pages back:
I f*#king love the Communists (OT) thread.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
May 2, 2016 - 08:01am PT
you've started two stupid off topic threads today

quit it

Blue you can post whatever you want it's a free country!
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 2, 2016 - 08:06am PT
Two of her grandparents were communists, and she was born on international workers day seven years ago
Happy birthday Clara!
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
May 2, 2016 - 09:01am PT
A red diaper baby!

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 2, 2016 - 09:12am PT
I miss Stewart, he kept this thread alive

Was he banned, or just hasn't posted lately?
Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
May 2, 2016 - 09:48am PT
Almost eight years of this thread would drive almost anyone crazy.
Politics Shmolitics...people do a lot of stupid sh#t trying persuade the hearts and minds of others, most of whom would never be convinced by argument or proof to change their minds anyway.

Why maintain a constant argument with yourself and everybody over some tired ideology your parents passed down to you...for blood pressure deregulation? Heart disease and stroke candidacy? That ought to be a new campaign slogan,
"Watch me have a stroke trying to convince you to have a stroke over what you believe!"

Seriously, politics ain't too chill. You may now return to your regularly scheduled regurgitation fest. In the meantime enjoy some original first rate literature on me...

Thomas reach over and caressed her soft brown hair. Then, as the credits rolled up the big screen he leaned over to kiss her. She turned her cheek away from his advance and said, "I didn't care what your politics were when I met you and I don't care now. It's just that you're obsessed with it and you can't shut up about it!" Thomas loved Laura but, that text from Alena was still on his phone. Laura was going to be at the trade convention that weekend and he thought, "maybe?..."
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 2, 2016 - 09:56am PT
I live in a "communist" country right now.

Frankly, it seems freer to me than the US.

Go downtown wherever you are, and parade around for a couple hours with signs saying "Arrest Xi Jinping", or "Stop Falun Gong Oppression" (written in Chinese) and report what happens :-)
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
May 2, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
America tried to have a government "of by and for the people".

Instead we sold our government and our freedom to corrupt corporate capitalism. It's not complicated.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 2, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
So the question remains

Does Blue consider all liberals to be "Communists"

Is Social Security a Communist plot to undermine our economy?

Are all social programs Communist?

Which social programs not communist?, like maybe our police and military programs

Do you think that the police, fire and military should be privatized so they aren't so Communist?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 2, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
But there are many others I do have, more so I'd say than you do in the US.

I'm also very curious what "freedoms" exist in China that citizens in the US DON'T have?

Having lived in the PRC for a few years, I'm unable to think of what this could possibly be. I found China extremely restrictive, and basically a police state.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 2, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
Bluring fears that us liberals, which he calls "communists" will take all his freedoms away

So he has to fight against liberals, so his tribe can bring back corporate slavery
and then he will feel a lot more free
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 2, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
You need to talk to some Chinese dissidents, Randisi, instead of being a CCP apologist :-)

The latter might be good for your career, though. Personally I prefer clean air.
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
May 2, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
Bluring fears that us liberals, which he calls "communists" will take all his freedoms away

So he has to fight against liberals, so his tribe can bring back corporate slavery
and then he will feel a lot more free

Not true, Dr. F. A few pages back Bluering came out in favor of worker's councils. In some parts of the world, they are known as soviets.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/soviet
(after the revolution) a local council, originally elected only by manual workers, with certain powers of local administration.

I am proud to call Bluering "Comrade!"
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
May 3, 2016 - 10:42am PT
For example,
I can't repair your home (more than $500) without a cost-prohibitive beaurocratic chain of events.
In the next 15-20 years we are going to face a horrifying reality as our housing infrastructure fails our retiring population. Our ' most important investment (our homes) are going to drown our baby-boomers in maintenance expenses.
It's like this, there is no shortage of willing workers, nor is there a shortage of important work to be done. So there must be a systemic breakdown that prevents us from doing important work in our communities. We have been sold out to a financial and regulatory system that blocks progress unless we support their corrupt involvement.
That's our freedom.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2016 - 11:00am PT
Hey, Randisi, is the Kool-Aid free? You probably don't even know about the
riots in Hong Kong cause you're so free. I need to look for the recent
article about the Partay's new propaganda campaign about being leery of
contacts with Westerners. Can you post up some of those posters? I can
if you're afraid to.

I bet you can't even check out this LA Times article:
http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-china-dangeorus-love-20160427-story.html

The caption should read:
""A foreign friend has organized a gathering tonight. You're always trying to increase your foreign language level -- why don't you go with me?" "OK." Two young women are depicted in a poster campaign called "Dangerous Love" that appeared in residential communities all over Beijing."


Norton

Social climber
May 3, 2016 - 11:14am PT
Could you please list a few???...

yes, i too would like to know?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 3, 2016 - 01:58pm PT
America has the least freedom and worst system in the world. Except for 96% of the other countries. It used to be 99%.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 3, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
Locker: all that matters is that the chronic is not so OK in China
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 3, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
Randisi, am still wondering about the freedoms you have in China, that Americans aren't even aware of.

Is it China's criminal justice system you are proud of?

According to the Supreme Peoples Court, in 2015, a total of 1,039 accused were declared innocent by Chinese courts, and 1.232 million were found guilty, a conviction rate of 99.92 percent.

Must feel very safe to live in a country where only criminals are arrested.

See https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/03/13/chinas-criminal-conviction-near-100-percent-in-2015/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
Comrade Randisi, you got nothing to say about my post? Oh, I know, just
more closed minded Western materialism masquerading as agit-prop. You're
probably also unaware of the cult of personality that, despite Hu Jintao's
studied protests, is being relentlessly crafted to accompany his rapidly
growing plethora of titles. I'm sure he wouldn't turn down a gud
ball-cupping from you if you asked him nicely.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2016 - 01:03pm PT
Buffalo Trace, good stuff!

not yer run-of-the-mill communist bourbon...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 4, 2016 - 01:13pm PT
Randisi just PMed me that he can't respond cause he's on his way to Pyongyang
to enjoy the delights of the workers' paradise there.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 4, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?

Actually, I noticed they are organized by Mormons, right wing Christians, neo Nazis,the Koch brothers, and the Tea party.

They even wave around a fake Constitution.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
May 4, 2016 - 03:43pm PT
In the 1st 4 min of this video Noam Chomsky, a radical Leftist, summarizes Bernie's "revolution" while sitting next to Yanis Varoufakis, a self-proclaimed Libertarian Marxist.

WARNING: Not recommended for the weak minded & impressionable ;-)

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 6, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
Pornography is to blame for the spread of communism

[Click to View YouTube Video]
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
May 6, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
Raygun telling Soviet jokes....some good ones, too.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 6, 2016 - 03:31pm PT
I guess Randisi deleted all his threads and went home to mope and get his
butthurt treated with ground bear gall bladder and crushed rhino horn.
Way to represent, dude! He's prolly scheming with his homies at the
People's Army Hacking Center to go all Sony on Chris Mac and his hate
mongering web site.
Norton

Social climber
May 6, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
lol

that's pretty funny, Cosmic!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 6, 2016 - 06:48pm PT
Fred C. Koch
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1958, Koch became a founding member of the John Birch Society, an American political advocacy group that opposes communist infiltration and supports limited government.[13][22][30] Koch held John Birch Society chapter meetings in the basement of his family's home in Wichita, Kansas.[27]:49[31]

Also in 1958, Koch helped amend the constitution of the state of Kansas to make Kansas a right-to-work state.[12][27]:49[32]

Fred Koch, father of Charles and David Koch
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2017 - 06:25am PT
Bluering! Greetings, Fellow Worker, on International Worker's Day.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
May 1, 2017 - 07:35am PT
Venezuela is no more socialist than we are a democracy. Are the Swiss eating their Bernese Mountain Dogs?

Cheers to the Workers of the World. The rest of you useless eaters can suck a tailpipe.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
May 1, 2017 - 08:00am PT
CLIMBERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 1, 2017 - 08:07am PT
I like to compare and contrast two similar states. Both have robust fishing and offshore oil industries and populations of about 5 million people. One is a conservative utopia and the other a socialist hell hole. They are of course Lousiana and Norway. Where would you rather live??
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2017 - 08:49am PT

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2017 - 08:51am PT
I also witnessed how capitalism with a good social net works.

You mean, like, Italy, Spain, France, or Greece? When the best of those has one out of eight people not working (the others are closer to one out of four) that rather calls into question yer use of 'works', doesn't it?
Binks

climber
Uranus
May 1, 2017 - 08:51am PT
Whatever ism you choose... keep it to yourself. I'm sick of everybody's isms stinking it up around here.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
May 1, 2017 - 08:59am PT
You mean, like, Italy, Spain, France, or Greece? When the best of those has one out of eight people not working (the others are closer to one out of four) that rather calls into question yer use of 'works', doesn't it?

Cherry pick your data much? Hahahaha. Why not include the UK with unemployment 0f 4.8% or Germany with unemployment of 3.9%. Hysterical.

Curt
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
May 1, 2017 - 09:00am PT
Wasn't Hitler a Socialist?

No.

Curt
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2017 - 09:23am PT
Than what, denying that those countries don't have a yuge unemployment problem?
Yes, viewed from Poland they look enticing, but viewed through an economist's lens they
have major problems.

Curt, comparing the economies of Germany and England to those others isn't politically correct. Remember, we're not sposed to make fun of the handicapped, right?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2017 - 09:53am PT
Are youse guys actually taking this thread as something serious?


Ricky posted:
I f*#king love the Communists (OT) thread.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
May 1, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
Majority of climbers are natural-born socialist or intellectually Communists. They just hide it
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 1, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
Majority of climbers are natural-born socialist or intellectually Communists. They just hide it

The majority of climbers are natural born anarchists or have Peter Pan syndrome.

Nobody I know seems to take much effort to hide it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 1, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
Hitler's Germany was a Nationalist Socialist Country, which had nothing to do with real socialism, it was a far right wing Nationalist Fascist Administration

Modern Day Communism is pure Socialism of all aspects of Government led by a Right Wing Authoritarian Despot, ie. Stalin, Mao, North Korea, Venezuela
The Leaders have all power and rake in the riches at the expense of the poor people that work for low wages and in poor conditions

Modern Day Socialist Countries are Democratic Socialists, which have most aspects of the country under capitalism, and only the commons are socialized. Norway and most of Europe are this.

America is mostly a Democratic Socialist Country but with some of the commons privatized at our expense, like our health care system and college education costing too much for the average person to afford
Our military, police, public lands, and 1-12 education is socialized.

We would be smart to go back to having a socialized commons, but Republicans in Congress have kept us on the expensive private health care system while in collusion with the insurance company so the bribes will continue,
ditto for education

Hence, YOU Pay ~3 times the amount you would have to pay for socialized health care and get less care because of the Republicans


some may disagree
But, are Russia, 1940s Germany or China in the least bit liberal?
Hell No, they are right wing Hell Holes
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 1, 2017 - 02:44pm PT
I will never understand why Republicans don't like the ACLU.

They exist to enforce the Bill of Rights.

My best guess is that the ACLU protects us from things like putting a giant statue of the Ten Commandments on the lawn of my State Capitol. That was going to happen until a group of Wiccans announced that they were going to erect a giant witchcraft statue on the State Capitol Grounds. That shut them up.

They also don't like it when they defend the rights of minority groups.

The ACLU also defends some pretty right wing groups, when it comes to any infringement on their rights.

We need the ACLU. They defend people whose CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS are being infringed upon.

Communists? A group like the ACLU would be executed under a communist system. China doesn't like it when we bring up their civil rights problems. They don't care about individual rights.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
May 1, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
Frontline did a great episode about socialized medicine in other countries. They showed the different methods, and the different results.
The episode is called "Sick Around The World" and you can watch it on their website or netflix. It is EXTREMELY revealing.

Care varies by country.

We know that Americans pay twice as much for health care than any other country on Earth. We also know that we do not have the best health care, either. That is a myth.

The problem is that health care is not a free market. You don't go around getting estimates every time your doctor recommends a test. A freaking CT costs almost 2 grand. I'm still paying off an ER visit from over a year ago, because it happened in Utah and my insurance company said that it was "out of network." Like I had a choice.

All I had was a sore back. They did a spinal CT, and other expensive tests. I ended up getting a ten dollar shot of Tordol, a muscle relaxer, and was discharged a few hours later. The entire thing cost almost 6000 dollars.

I broke a leg in 1986 and paid 250 bucks for it.

Something is deeply wrong with our healthcare costs, and it isn't malpractice claims.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 1, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
Ever notice how most of the groups supporting trump are white supremicist wack jobs???? Nothing like some KKK love to make you feel appreciated.......
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 1, 2017 - 03:13pm PT
Ever notice how much they love Putin?

They just love far right wing authoritarians,
and they hate democracy where there is majority rule.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
May 1, 2017 - 04:05pm PT
Ever notice how much they love Putin?

Not just Putin.

The bombast in chief "would be honored" to meet Kim Jong Un and thought his father was a great man.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
May 1, 2017 - 04:35pm PT
When Brezjnev finally died, he came to the afterlife and met the last Tsar, Nicholas II. Nicholas was of course curious about developments in Mother Russia, and asked Leonid about it:

Tell me, comrade, is the Russian fleet still the scourge of the seas?

It is more powerful than you could even have imagined, comrade Nicholas, battleships and aircraft carriers and rockets and all.

Good, goodand the secret police, do they still have the people under control?

We have turned into an efficient machine, and we have control measures such as you might have dreamt of! There is no escaping them now!

Very well, all very welland tell methe vodka, is that still as strong, is it still 38%?

No, comrade Nikolay, it is now at 40%!

<silence>

Tell me, comrade Leonid, was it really necessary to implement Communism in our beloved Mother Russia for only 2%?

Some data here RE USSR/Russia GDP growth during the last ~ 100 years. It would be interesting to see these plots updated from 2010-present
https://nintil.com/2016/03/26/the-soviet-union-gdp-growth/


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
TT, funny story!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 1, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
I'm strictly a social Communist part of the time to impress and a strict Communist when it suits me.

F*#k the other guys when the chips are down.

Or does that make me a capitalist?

Question #2: Is this irony?
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
May 1, 2017 - 05:19pm PT
Reilly, what does DMT's poster say? (nice find by the way)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
Z, it says "when yer done working, it's time to relax (in a 'cultured' way)!"
It's clearly a modern play on the old posters extolling the workers to work
their asses off for the Fatherland.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
It is much more fulfilling to work your ass off for some capitalist fat cat, that's true!

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 1, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
I love to commune with nature, and commune with my fellow humans. Does that make me a communist?
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
May 1, 2017 - 08:46pm PT
As part of requirement (not in the book) a true Communist needs to understand nature . nature is used during plan "B" and been a climber makes the transition in to plan "B" be little easier.

As I said, most of you are Communist and no wonder you don't get alone with the man.


















tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
May 12, 2017 - 12:35pm PT
A friend just returned from Cuba. Cubans have universal health care, free education, world renowned cigars, mojitos, afro-cuban music, some of the best baseball players on the planet, and a monthly food ration per person shown here for March 2017...


White rice 5 lbs
Brown rice 2 lbs
Refined flour 3 lbs
Unrefined flour 1 lb
Black beans 10 lbs
Cooking oil 0.5 lb
Coffee 1 package?
Jam 3 U?
Salt 1 package?
Matches 1 U?
Pasta 1 package?

Not on the ration list but I am told 5 eggs per person per month. If you have the money, you can purchase food beyond your ration at the price listed on the board.

Cubans are resourceful and resilient people surviving for decades under a Soviet-backed Castro regime that was being undermined by a US economic embargo that began during the Kennedy administration for nationalizing the US-owned Cuban oil refineries and expanded when the CIA discovered soccer fields on military bases (aka Cuban Missile Crisis). Furthermore, the collapse of the FSU in 1989 had a devastating impact on the Cuban economy mainly due to a decline in sugar exports and oil imports.

Despite these and other setbacks Cubans remain optimistic about their future. Their resourcefulness is demonstrated by the 1950-60s vintage American cars that they keep on the road using spare parts modified from Russian car parts or jerry rigged all together. Medical doctors earn the equivalent of ~$50 US per month, school teachers with a Master's degree earn $15/mth. Someone handing out toilet paper in a public restroom earns $20/mth. No homeless people in Havana or anywhere else. Some here will probably say..."there are no homeless people in Cuba because they're all homeless" ;-(

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 18, 2017 - 07:35pm PT
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 19, 2017 - 09:46am PT
That's a great picture!

I think I've said it somewhere here in years past- St. Basil's Cathedral is the most intricate and beautiful on the outside, from what I saw in USSR in 1990. But on the inside, it showed its age, very worn out and dusty. All the effort went into external beautification. I wonder if that is a metaphor, a juxtaposition, a non sequitur, or something else?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 05:37am PT
Fellow Workers! Bluering! Happy International Worker's Day!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 1, 2018 - 06:01am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 1, 2018 - 06:29am PT
For context ^^^^^^^^^^

Michel Chossudovsky (born 1946) is a Canadian economist, author and conspiracy theorist.[1][2] He is professor emeritus of economics at the University of Ottawa[3][4] and the president and director of the Centre for Research on Globalization, which publishes conspiracy theories.[5][6][7][8] Chossudovsky has written that the September 11 attacks were not committed by Islamic terrorists, and that the attacks were a pretext for war in the Middle East.[9][10][11][12]

In 2017, the Centre for Research on Globalization was accused by NATO information warfare specialists of playing a key role in the spread of pro-Russian propaganda.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 1, 2018 - 07:14am PT
micheal simple reprinted the article jon

kinda like a retweet?

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2018 - 07:59am PT
Far-left anarchists smash windows in Paris during May Day rally

PARIS
Hundreds of hooded protesters held up an annual May Day demonstration in eastern Paris on Tuesday, with some smashing the windows of a McDonald's restaurant and hurling petrol bombs inside, Reuters television images showed.
French police warned on Monday of possible clashes with far-left anarchist groups, known as Black Blocs, after a call on social media for a "Revolutionary Day".
Authorities said some 1,200 hooded and masked protesters had turned up on the sidelines of Tuesday's planned demonstration by labor unions.
Images also showed the smashed windows of a Renault garage on a road near the Austerlitz station and a construction vehicle in flames.
The protesters moved towards riot police chanting anti-fascist slogans, waving Soviet flags and anti-government banners and throwing firecrackers. Some started to build barricades. The police used water cannon against some of the protesters.
President Emmanuel Macron, elected last May on a promise to shake up France's creaking economy and spur jobs growth, is locked in a battle with the trade unions over his plans to liberalize labor regulations.
Railway staff have begun three months of nationwide rolling strikes in a dispute over the government's planned overhaul of state-run railway SNCF.
Reuters: (Reporting by John Irish; Editing by Gareth Jones)

__

Fighting the good fight. Then they probably cashed their dole checks and went clubbing, again.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
May 1, 2018 - 08:34am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2018 - 08:41am PT
no one is more responsible for hunger in venesuala than the united states,

We put Hugo in power? How do you live with that guilt?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 08:42am PT
More than 100,000 people came out on the streets on Moscow to march in the traditional May Day parade.

Moscow's Federation of Trade Unions said about 120,000 people marched from the Red Square on the main streets of the Russian capital to mark May Day.

Over recent years, the parade became a highly orchestrated show of power by Russian authorities and the ruling United Russia party, with the demonstrators refraining from criticizing the government.

In St. Petersburg, Russia's second-largest city, however, Russians unhappy with the Kremlin's attempts to curtail internet freedom joined the official May Day demonstration.

Police in Istanbul detained more than a dozen demonstrators who tried to march toward Istanbul's symbolic main square in defiance of a ban.

Turkey declared Taksim Square off-limits to May Day celebrations citing security concerns. Roads leading to the square were blocked and police allowed only small groups of labor union representatives to lay wreaths at a monument there.

Still, a group of some 25 people, chanting "Taksim cannot be off limits on May 1" tried to push their way into the square but were rounded up by riot police.

Major trade unions were scheduled to mark the day with rallies at government-designated areas in Istanbul and Ankara

Taksim holds a symbolic value for Turkey's labor movement. In 1977, 34 people were killed there during a May Day event when shots were fired into the crowd from a nearby building.

Thousands of Greeks are marching through central Athens in at least three separate May Day demonstrations.

About 2,000 garment workers gathered at a park in Cambodia's capital, Phnom Penh, for a rally organized by a garment union coalition.

The workers wanted to march to the National Assembly to urge lawmakers to help them address labor-related concerns, but the group was stopped by riot police.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
May 1, 2018 - 08:52am PT
Remember your history.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 09:45am PT
Remember your history.

Indeed, the phony capitalists and the phony communists should both remember that the power of the people wins out eventually.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2018 - 09:49am PT
But if the people are crankloons? The people loved the Perons, but that didnt work out so well.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 1, 2018 - 09:49am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 1, 2018 - 10:22am PT
Good day to remember Hazel Dickens. A big voice in bringing reform in the labor conditions in the mines.

RIP Komrade

[Click to View YouTube Video]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 1, 2018 - 10:38am PT
The U.S. approach to foreign policy has always be driven by capitalism and tilting local politics for ruling elites aligned solely with our economic interests versus relationships based on mutual benefits for both countries. That has almost uniformly resulted in cumulative disaster over the long haul of several hundred years leaving a legacy which has, in general, been an embarrassing and enduring debacle as a result.

South and Central America? Debacle - check.
The Mideast? A ridiculously embarrassing debacle - check.
Africa? Where the f*#k is Africa and who cares - check.
Southeast Asia? How's the fried rice - check.

And that's opened the door and set the stage for what we see going on around the world now: China swooping in to fill the vacuum we've left almost everywhere while we've been engaged in the Mideast without any coherent regional strategy of any kind beyond playing the dancing fool for Israel. China has quietly pursued a highly effective strategy of economic investment combined with Chinese emigration to those same countries in an effort to cement both economic and cultural relationships. They are investing in infrastructure projects and schools everywhere. English as a second language? Think Mandarin instead.

Our historically predatory approach to foreign policy ill-serves our interests. Our "shithole" view of third-world nations and peoples actually works against us in deep and abiding ways. Our short-term, immediate-gain thinking combined with the foreign policy attention span of a Cocker Spaniel and the fact our finger on always on the trigger first, all add up to us being our own worst enemy on the world stage. We consistently undermine our long-term interests in pursuit of short-term gains.

So say what you will about those pesky Commies - at least they've learned to play the long game and are doing it with investments and sandals on the ground around the world instead of boots.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
But if the people are crankloons? The people loved the Perons, but that didnt work out so well.

As the great man said:
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 02:25pm PT
Btw it's misspelling ;)

How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. Then our ability to spell is drained from our essence. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 02:51pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 03:06pm PT
Communism is just a different name for dictatorship.

Lenin got rid of the communists.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
May 1, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
Yap

majority of Supertacos are in fact Communists but they can't say it
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 1, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
Lenin got rid of the communists.

Funny. Just because Lenin eliminated the LSR doesn't mean he wasn't a communist himself. Is this part of the same revisionism that now claims the USSR was not, in fact, communist at all? Rather, was practicing "state capitalism?" A bizarre world story you types create for yourselves.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2018 - 09:38pm PT
Lituya, may I recommend a very excellent book: Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell?
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 1, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
Has anyone not read it?

Careful with Orwell, though--he cuts both ways.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
May 1, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
I'll take Mr. Mooses personal experiences with mob rule over a commies double talk any day of the week...
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 1, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
Hitchens wrote a good book a while back--Why Orwell Matters. Like Orwell, Hitchens was impossible to pigeonhole. Which is why I liked the guy.

As for Spain, well, you and I probably see things differently. Still, how anyone who's read Ode could remain in support of leftist revolution is beyond me.

Not sure where your politics lie. I suspect some sort of anarchist Gramsci philosophy? In any event, that's the great thing, right? We're free to subscribe to whatever the f@#% we want to. Unfortunately, commies tend to close the door on this type of discourse once they gain power. And they want your soul too.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
May 1, 2018 - 10:32pm PT
nothing wrong with Communism, on it's surface. The problem is that it has been usurped by totalitarian dictatorships.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2018 - 11:10pm PT
Lenin was warm and cuddly compared to his successor.

And do explain how communism is compatible with democracy.
Whos gonna elect their chosen slave master?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
May 1, 2018 - 11:20pm PT

Lituya

Mountain climber
May 1, 2018 - 11:38pm PT
So say what you will about those pesky Commies - at least they've learned to play the long game and are doing it with investments and sandals on the ground around the world instead of boots.

Maybe this is because they're too busy subjugating, starving, and murdering their own citizens.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 05:38am PT
Has anyone not read it?

Careful with Orwell, though--he cuts both ways.

Have you read it?

Orwell does not cut both ways. He's very consistent.
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
May 2, 2018 - 08:34am PT
10b4me posted:
nothing wrong with Communism, on it's surface. The problem is that it has been usurped by totalitarian dictatorships.
For better accuracy, replace "... has been usurped by ..." with "... quite naturally and pretty much inevitably leads to ...".
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 2, 2018 - 08:52am PT
The problem is that it has been usurped by RIGHT WING totalitarian dictatorships

So hence, calling commies leftists or left wing is a misnomer

There is nothing remotely similar to anything liberal in the great RED Communist Regimens

They have more in common with fascism using slave labor
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
May 2, 2018 - 08:55am PT
xCon posted:
a commune does better even if half the members refuse to work rather than when all are required to by one guy ripping them all off...
Would be interesting to hear of any examples of communes (with, say, 100+ members, that have been around for 10+ years) of which this is true.

Whereas it would be trivially easy to name dozens of companies with 100+ employees for which people enjoy working and who prosper as a result of their work.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 09:12am PT
Would be interesting to hear of any examples of communes (with, say, 100+ members, that have been around for 10+ years) of which this is true.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/551018759/are-hunter-gatherers-the-happiest-humans-to-inhabit-earth

The idea is simple: Perhaps the American and European way of living isn't the pinnacle of human existence. Humanity hasn't been marching in a linear fashion toward some promised land. Perhaps, Western society isn't some magical state in which technology free us from the shackles of acquiring basic needs and allows us to maximize leisure and pleasure.

Instead, maybe, modernization has done just the opposite. Maybe the most leisurely days of humanity are behind us way, way behind us.

"Did our hunter-gatherers have it better off?" James Lancester asks in a recent issue of The New Yorker.

"We're flattering ourselves by believing that their existence was so grim and that our modern, civilized one is, by comparison, so great," Lancester writes.

A study back in the 1960s found the Bushmen have figured out a way to work only about 15 hours each week acquiring food and then another 15 to 20 hours on domestic chores. The rest of the time they could relax and focus on family, friends and hobbies.

https://www.huntercourse.com/blog/2011/05/amazing-hunter-gatherer-societies-still-in-existence/

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
May 2, 2018 - 09:21am PT
Communism is awesome.

Just look at Venezuela.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 2, 2018 - 09:31am PT
I hope to be going to live in the Kalahari soon, too, in a Land Rover.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 2, 2018 - 10:47am PT
And I hope to be going to Patagonia next year on my Suzuki. A true race to the bottom? :-)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 10:52am PT
Capitalism is awesome, just look at south central LA.

I hope to be going to live in the Kalahari soon, too, in a Land Rover.

You'd be the happiest man on Earth!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 10:55am PT
Capitalism is awesome!


Lituya

Mountain climber
May 2, 2018 - 10:59am PT
A couple of books for Gary:


And, of course, a book for Master Fry:


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 11:03am PT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 2, 2018 - 11:04am PT
This thread would have had some relevancy a generation ago.
Pete_N

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
May 2, 2018 - 11:21am PT
Happy Birthday, Karl Marx!

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/opinion/karl-marx-at-200-influence.html

Note that Marx' concept of communism has little resemblance to any recent or extant "examples".
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
May 2, 2018 - 11:28am PT
Hey Gary - Can you tell us why China's annual GDP has remained about six percent for the last 20 years?

Here's a hint:

It's not communism.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 2, 2018 - 11:59am PT
Extremism is the issue. Doesnt matter if it is left or right.

If you think your way is the only right way, you are an extremist.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 2, 2018 - 12:35pm PT
That is like saying that Darwinism and Creationism are equally credible because theyre both theories.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
Hey Gary - Can you tell us why China's annual GDP has remained about six percent for the last 20 years?

Here's a hint:

It's not communism.

Yes, the blessings of capitalism are flooding China.

Note that Marx' concept of communism has little resemblance to any recent or extant "examples".

True enough. People that criticize Marx mostly have never read anything he wrote.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 2, 2018 - 01:03pm PT
Gary, did you always vote for Gus Hall?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
Gary, did you always vote for Gus Hall?

Just once, in 1980 when he ran with Angela Davis. The CPUSA was the only third party option on the ballot in Indiana that year, so they got my vote. That plus Davis had a hall of fame 'fro.

Who'd you vote for that year, and were they really a better option than Hall/Davis?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
May 2, 2018 - 01:37pm PT
Gary - you're quite the cherry picker.

Can you name three countries where communism had a net positive effect on the population? One that's had long term success? How about three communist countries that attracted immigrants from healthy capitalist countries?

Pretty much, every country that has transitioned to a capitalist system has experienced a positive, long-term effect on the population.



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
Edward T, please name me three communist countries that weren't actually bureaucratic state economies controlled by a political elite?

True communism is a stateless, classless society. At least that's what Marx thought would be the culmination of economic evolution.

Theory, shmeory. The only place all that stuff worked was in the '30s in Spain in the anarchist run areas. People were not controlled by any governement, that's why both the capitalist governments and the Soviet "communists" wanted them crushed. and they did.

I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life--snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.--had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money--tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master. Of course such a state of affairs could not last. It was simply a temporary and
local phase in an enormous game that is being played over the whole surface of the earth. But it lasted long enough to have its effect upon anyone who experienced it. However much one cursed at the time, one realized afterwards that one had been in contact with something strange and valuable. One had been in a community where hope was more normal than apathy or cynicism, where the word 'comrade' stood for comradeship and not, as in most countries, for humbug. One had breathed the air of equality. I am well aware that it is now the fashion to deny that Socialism has anything to do with equality. In every country in the
world a huge tribe of party-hacks and sleek little professors are busy 'proving' that Socialism means no more than a planned state-capitalism with the grab-motive left intact. But fortunately there also exists a vision of Socialism quite different from this. The thing that attracts ordinary men to Socialism and makes them willing to risk their skins for it, the 'mystique' of Socialism, is the idea of equality; to the vast majority of people Socialism means a classless society, or it means nothing at all. And it was here that those few months in the militia were valuable to me. For the Spanish militias, while they lasted, were a sort of microcosm of a classless society. In that community where no one
was on the make, where there was a shortage of everything but no privilege and no boot-licking, one got, perhaps, a crude forecast of what the opening stages of Socialism might be like. And, after all, instead of disillusioning me it deeply attracted me. The effect was to make my desire to see Socialism established much more actual than it had been before. Partly, perhaps, this was due to the good luck of being among Spaniards, who, with their innate decency and their ever-present Anarchist tinge, would make even the opening stages of Socialism tolerable if they had the chance.
-- George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia

Lituya

Mountain climber
May 2, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
This thread would have had some relevancy a generation ago.

So, history is irrelevant now? Got it. Still, its always nice to hear a beret-wearing chap admit communism is dead.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 2, 2018 - 02:16pm PT
Theory, shmeory. The only place all that stuff worked was in the '30s in Spain in the anarchist run areas. People were not controlled by any governement, that's why both the capitalist governments and the Soviet "communists" wanted them crushed. and they did.

Flowing white robes and hymns during the day. Of course, at night they were dragging a hundred thousand or so Catholics out of their homes and putting bullets in their chests.

But never mind the details, right?

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
May 2, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 02:59pm PT
Of course, at night they were dragging a hundred thousand or so Catholics out of their homes and putting bullets in their chests.

You mistake them for the fascists and the Republicans. The anarchists had no love for the Church, that's true.

Franco said he was willing to shoot half of Spain. Most of the executions came from the fascists. Anthony Beevor's history of the Spanish civil war is pretty good and unbiased.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 2, 2018 - 03:30pm PT
Huh?

Here's the short version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain);

The Red Terror in Spain (Spanish: Terror Rojo)[3] is the name given by historians to various acts of violence committed from 1936 until the end of the Spanish Civil War "by sections of nearly all the leftist groups".[4][5] News of the rightist military coup in 1936 unleashed a social revolutionary response, and no republican region escaped revolutionary and anticlerical violence, but it was minimal in the Basque Country.[6] The violence consisted of the killing of tens of thousands of people (including 6,832[7] members of the Catholic clergy, the vast majority in the summer of 1936 in the wake of the military coup) as well as attacks on landowners, industrialists, and politicians as well as the desecration and burning of monasteries and churches.[7]The failed pronunciamiento of 1936 set loose a violent onslaught on those that revolutionaries in the Republican zone identified as enemies; "where the rebellion failed, for several months afterwards merely to be identified as a priest, a religious or simply a militant Christian or member of some apostolic or pious organization, was enough for a person to be executed without trial".[9] . . . Some estimates of the Red Terror range from 38,000[11] to ~172,344 lives.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
Lituya, yiou skipped the part about the White Terror? And did you notice the Red Terror was mostly from the Republicans? Nevertheless, it was bloody all over.

Read Beevor's history if your world view can handle the truth.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 2, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
As a minor student of histories on the Spanish Civil War:

The Anarchists & commies shot a bunch of Catholic clergy, & Catholics, & fascists, & people they didn't like.

The fascists shot a bunch of liberals, anarchists, commies, & republicans & people they didn't like.

And they both shot anyone they suspected of rooting for the other side, or who had money, or an estate they wanted.

I am somewhat surprised Spain today is a robust as it is.

Madrid, Museum of Ham Tavern & meat shop 2012.


Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 2, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
More on the Spanish Civil War.

Towards the end of the war, the anarchists, commies, & republicans & people shot more of the people they didn't like.

But then, the commies started shooting their Republican & anarchist allies & of course those folks shot back.

And the Fascists, in areas they conquered, just shot everyone that wasn't catholic & sometimes they shot the Catholics too.

And at the end of the war, both sides shot anyone they suspected of rooting for the other side, or who had money, or an estate they wanted.

It's amazing to visit Spain today, & the totally destroyed by war cities of Madrid & Barcelona & not see signs of 1930's destruction.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 2, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
Hey! I had calamari over in the corner there! I think the waiter was a commie, but a nice one.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 2, 2018 - 09:18pm PT
Spain was about 200 years late to The Enlightenment.
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2018 - 08:32am PT
This has always been a hilarious thread. Take a look at the first few pages if you need a good laugh.

Of course, this thread ignores the real problem:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2576458/Grammy-Awards-Ideological-Satanism-at-its-best
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
I suspect Chinese commies could restore Peurto Ricos power in six months for free no problem if only they realized what an insanely great idea that was.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
May 3, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
If the Chinese decided to do it it would be done much quicker than 6 months. I am not pro Mao or communism but once those folks decide to do something they do not mess around.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2018 - 02:22pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-marx-2018-story.html



A specter is haunting Germany the specter of Karl Marx.

A curious debate has erupted just as the hometown of communism's founding father is about to celebrate the 200th anniversary of his birth in the western German town of Trier.

Is it appropriate for a country split by the Cold War, which pitted communism against capitalism, to honor the 19th century critic of free markets? Is it tasteless to capitalize on Marx's name for the sake of tourist income? Is nostalgia for communist East Germany clouding peoples' memories? Or might Marx be a modern-day antidote to an era of unbridled capitalism?

Those are among the questions riling Germans and people across Europe this week as his hometown prepares to pay tribute to Marx's memory by unveiling an 18-foot-high statue of its native son. The inauguration of the colossal statue will kick off a year featuring 600 events in the Trier area celebrating Marx, who was born on May 5, 1818. That the 2.3-ton bronze memorial of the bearded philosopher in a pensive pose and frock coat was a gift from the People's Republic of China has only added to the controversy.

...In his writings, Marx argued that the relentless drive for profits in the capitalist system would lead enterprises to continuously mechanize their workplaces and that would, in turn, lead to more goods being produced while at the same time workers' wages would be squeezed. He warned, also prophetically, that capitalism's tendency to concentrate high value on arbitrary products would lead to a "subservience to inhuman ... unnatural and imaginary appetites."
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
May 3, 2018 - 04:31pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 4, 2018 - 02:08pm PT
One last post before we put this to bed until next May. Not much has changed since 1918:

"As we have said, the bankers are for bulletsfor the fool patriots that enlist at paupers' wages to stop the bullets, while the bankers clip coupons, boost food prices, increase dividends, and pile up millions and billions for themselves. Say, Mr. Workingman, suppose you have sense enough to be as patriotic as the banker, but not a bit more so. When you see the bankers on the firing line with guns in their hands ready to stop bullets as well as start them, then it is time enough for you to be seized with the patriotic itch and have yourself shot into a crazy-quilt for their profit and glory. Don't you take a fit and rush to the front until you see them there. They own the country and if they don't set the example of fighting for it, why should you?" -- Eugene Debs
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 4, 2018 - 09:14pm PT

So, what are you waiting for? Of course, 1944 was a long time ago. How's this "taking" thing supposed to work? At the ballot box? or another way?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 5, 2018 - 07:56am PT
Reuters:

Marx's German birthplace unveils controversial statue of him


TRIER, GERMANY
Protesters held banners reading "Down with capitalism" and "Father of all dictators" at Saturday's unveiling of a statue of Karl Marx in the German city of Trier, reflecting the polarizing legacy of the philosopher in his birthplace and beyond.
The bronze sculpture, which towers over 5 meters (16 feet) high including the plinth, is a gift from China to mark Saturday's 200th birthday of the founder of Communism.
Marx spent the first 17 years of his life in Trier, a small town on the Moselle River in Germany's far west.
Many see the post-World War Two division of Germany and the erection of the Berlin Wall to divide the Communist east from the capitalist West as a result of his ideas, but Trier mayor Wolfram Leibe said historical controversies should be acknowledged.
"In Germany, we have this situation again and again with difficult, complex personalities of history - we want to hide them in the woods," he said. "So it was a conscious act to bring Karl Marx into the city ... We don't have to hide him."
The city council voted to accept the gift from the Chinese government by 42 members to seven in March 2017.
While some see it as recognition of Trier's most famous son, others argue that accepting the gift from China is not compatible with criticizing human rights abuses there.
Since 2015, China's President Xi Jinping has presided over a widespread crackdown on human rights activists.
The statue depicts a thoughtful Marx, holding a book in one hand.
"Yes, we stand by the child of our city. And we deal with Karl Marx in a constructive and active way," said Malu Dreyer, premier of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate, to which Trier belongs. "We are glad to receive this present, this gesture of friendship."

(Reporting by Reuters TV; Writing by Paul Carrel; Editing by Kevin Liffey)


So what would Marx say about Triers favorite industry - winemaking?
The proletariat cant make good wine, trust me, Ive had it.
Sure do like a nice Moselle rieseling though.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 5, 2018 - 10:04am PT
Reilly, it's the fluoridation of the wine that makes it taste so bad.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 5, 2018 - 07:54pm PT

Lituya

Mountain climber
May 7, 2018 - 11:15am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

"The estimates of the number of non-combatants killed by these three regimes alone range from a low of 21 million to a high of 70 million"


Still, Gary wants to give it another try. "I swear, we'll get it right this time!"
Jonathan Weir

Boulder climber
visalia, ca
May 7, 2018 - 12:03pm PT
Reply to mass killings under communist regimes. I'm sure you don't know all the history in the world, unless your Gore Vidal or from a Ivy League School with a masters or PH.D in history or anthropology. I'm sorry to tell you , but these things happened in a lot of places and not always under communists regimes. In the 80's and late seventies America (North) sent dictators down to south America to govern their countries because they were so afraid of Communism taking over. They wanted to deal with capitalists, so they dropped in Pinochet in Chile and some other dickhead in Uruguay who was just like Pinochet. Thousands were imprisoned and tortured in both countries often with the help of USA's CIA just because they were intellectuals. Then we backed drug dealers because they were about capitalism, gave them weapons, then instead of deadheading an empty plane back to America, filled it with bales of Cocaine. This probably fueled the crack epidemic more than anything. When everything was over it they put oliver north on tv on trial for a while in his olive green suit. I was too young to care or watch it. I just wanted some candy.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 7, 2018 - 12:25pm PT
Jonathan,

Not from an Ivy League school, but I do, in fact, have a MA in history. (And a BA American History, a BA Astronomy, a MFA Creative Writing, and a MAIS.)

You're only partially right about South America. Much has been written about American meddling there--mostly from the left view. Mostly re Allende. Pales in comparison to communist atrocities elsewhere. Not even a blip. As for the narco wars, well, who knows. I lived in Colombia for a while. If you have access to CIA files, I'd love to see.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 7, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 7, 2018 - 03:59pm PT
Not true at all. No doubt the Republican Party was once more liberal--at least in their rhetoric. They used to be green too. But they have moved no farther from the center than Democrats. Calming these pendulum swings should be a priority, but, unfortunately, neither "side" trusts the other's commitments to compromise. IMO, part of the reason is because too much power has been delegated to bureaucrats who are far too free to interpret law. Even Rousseau warned against this inevitability.

Anyway, here's the 1956 platform:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=25838


//"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."


"We hold that the major world issue today is whether Government shall be the servant or the master of men. We hold that the Bill of Rights is the sacred foundation of personal liberty. That men are created equal needs no affirmation, but they must have equality of opportunity and protection of their civil rights under the law."

"We hold that the strict division of powers and the primary responsibility of State and local governments must be maintained, and that the centralization of powers in the national Government leads to expansion of the mastery of our lives."

"We hold that the protection of the freedom of men requires that budgets be balanced, waste in government eliminated, and taxes reduced."


"The advance of Communism and its enslavement of people has been checked, and, at key points, thrown back. Austria, Iran and Guatemala have been liberated from Kremlin control. Forces of freedom are at work in the nations still enslaved by Communist imperialism."//
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 7, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
today it would be called communist...

Eisenhower was a Communist. So was the 1956 Republican platform. Says so right here:
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=37397

He allowed the Red Army to take Berlin, why was that, huh?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 8, 2018 - 01:32pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-gabriel-karl-marx-birthday-20180506-story.html


Dear Karl,

Happy birthday! It's tempting to say that much has changed in the 200 years since your birth, but as I sit down to describe those changes, I must admit I am more struck by the similarities than the differences between your time and mine.

...Yes, Karl, after you died in 1883, people discovered your writings and some promptly misused them. There are statues of you in capitals around the globe where governments expounded "Marxism" to deprive people of the very freedoms you extolled. They reinterpreted your vision of "the free development of each" being "the condition for the free development of all" as the freedom to be equally miserable. Indeed, the repression and butchery accomplished in your name during the last century would horrify you.

Do you remember your high hopes for democracy? How you believed free speech, universal education and the vote would help usher in a world that created the greatest good for the greatest number? It hasn't really worked out that way. While so-called Marxists operating under a communist banner expunged rights around the globe, capitalists busily subverted democracy in a long and insidious hostile takeover.

Don't get me wrong. The initial benefits of capitalism were tremendous. Humankind's possibilities soared. Scientific, technological and medical discoveries ensured that people lived longer and better. The arts flourished because people had leisure time to read, paint and compose. Natural resources were harnessed to improve agriculture, so everyone could eat. It really was marvelous, but as you said, for the capitalist, marvelous isn't enough. That omnivorous beast hungers eternally for more and bigger profits.

...

In the past 40 years, especially, such capitalists have turned democracies on their heads. Most of those governments are no longer of the people or for the people. They serve one constituent: business. Politicians are bought by the dozen, the highest echelons of government bureaucracies are peopled with titans of industry and finance and their minions, and laws are written to protect corporate interests over people's interests. Citizens of democracies, who fought so hard in your century for the right to vote, have seemed to lose interest in the ballot when faced with the powerful adversary, capital. The vote has been devalued, and like any commodity, it has been snapped up by savvy investors who understand its power.

I remember how much you admired Abraham Lincoln and how you thought that brilliant son of the working class embodied everything good and great about the United States. Well, I hate to tell you, but the man now occupying Lincoln's house is your old capitalist friend Mr. Moneybags. I recently reread your "Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844" and laughed because you described him to a tee when you wrote about the wizardry of money, which can turn even a brute into a prince. "I am ugly, but I can buy for myself the most beautiful of women. Therefore I am not ugly, for the effect of ugliness its deterrent power is nullified by money. I am bad, dishonest, unscrupulous, stupid; but money is honored and hence its possessor. Does not all my money, therefore, transform all my incapacities into their contrary?" You must have had a crystal ball in the Paris apartment where you wrote those words.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 8, 2018 - 10:16pm PT
I am not pro Mao or communism but once those folks decide to do something they do not mess around.

They're not real big on public hearings or environmental assessments.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
May 9, 2018 - 05:34am PT
Marx predicted that, like previous socio-economic systems, capitalism produced internal tensions which would lead to its self-destruction and replacement by a new system: socialism.

And here we are... 170 years later... still waiting for socialism to overtake Capitalism.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 24, 2018 - 01:17pm PT
Watch out! The commies are on the march!



Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) wants large employers such as Amazon, Walmart and McDonald's to fully cover the cost of food stamps, public housing, Medicaid and other federal assistance received by their employees. The goal, he said, is to force corporations to pay a living wage and curb roughly $150 billion in taxpayer dollars that go to funding federal assistance programs for low-wage workers each year.

Sanders plans to introduce a bill in the Senate on Sept. 5 that would impose a 100% tax on government benefits received by workers at companies with 500 or more employees. For example, if an Amazon employee receives $300 in food stamps, Amazon would be taxed $300.

"At a time of massive wealth and income inequality, the gap between the very rich and everyone else continues to grow wider," Sanders said.

Labor groups say that gap is particularly pronounced at the nation's largest and most profitable companies, including Walmart, which has roughly 2.2 million workers, and Amazon, which employs more than 575,000.

Public records obtained by the New Food Economy, a nonprofit news organization, show that thousands of Amazon employees rely on the government's Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program to make ends meet. As many as 1 in 3 Amazon employees in Arizona and about 1 in 10 in Pennsylvania and Ohio receive food stamps, according to an April report by the New Food Economy, based in New York.

Amazon spokeswoman Melanie Etches said the figures were misleading. "They include people who only worked for Amazon for a short period of time and/or who chose to work part-time," she said in a statement. "We have hundreds of full-time roles available, however, some prefer part-time for the flexibility or other personal reasons."

Sanders' bill would be an extension of a petition he started Tuesday calling on the world's richest man, Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, to pay workers a living wage and to improve working conditions at Amazon warehouses. As of Thursday morning, it had 105,000 signatures. (Bezos also the owns the Washington Post.)

"While Mr. Bezos is the most egregious example, the Walton family of Walmart and many other billionaire-owned profitable corporations also enrich themselves off taxpayer assistance while paying their workers poverty-level wages," Sanders said. Representatives for Walmart did not respond to requests for comment.

Bezos, who founded Amazon in 1994, has seen his net worth steadily climb in recent months as the stock market hits record highs. He is worth $157 billion, up from $99 billion a year ago, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. The median Amazon worker, meanwhile, was paid $28,446 last year, according to company filings. (The federal poverty level for a family of four is $24,600.)

Amazon spokeswoman Etches said her company had created more than 130,000 new jobs "with highly competitive pay and full benefits" in the last year. She added that the average hourly wage for full-time workers in U.S. warehouses is more than $15 an hour, when stock and incentive bonuses are factored in.

"We encourage anyone to compare our median pay and benefits to other retailers," Etches said.

The company did not say how many of its workers are part-time, but said it hires thousands of temporary workers during peak holiday times.

Amazon reported profit of $3.03 billion last year as its sales climbed 31% to $178 billion.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 25, 2018 - 10:35am PT
I f*#king love the Communists (OT) thread.

Me, too. It's loaded with hilarity. My favorite bit was when Bluering advocated for worker's councils (AKA soviets) in factories. It's too bad he deleted that post.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 25, 2018 - 10:38am PT
Strictly speaking soviets were any community council. 😉
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 19, 2019 - 12:02pm PT

Paul Robeson has been mentioned. And here's another bass, Leonid Kharitonov.

Song of the Volga Boatmen - Red Army Chorus - Leonid Kharitonov - Леонид Харитонов

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Before anyone take this BEAUTIFUL song and praise or reject it by political reasons, remember that it was composed in 1866. Long before October Revolution (1917). This song is not an anthem for communism, it's just an expression of Russian folklore and I would thank to you all that any cultural expressions don't be used as political or ideological tools.

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 19, 2019 - 01:45pm PT
Don't trust a preacher who uses arcane icons.

From the GARY link above which tries to accuse Ike of being a Dirty Red.

Jeb Stuart Thurmond
Jeb Stuart Thurmond is online now
Didn't write the Bible, just obeys it


Public Awareness Medal One Year/1000 posts Long service medal, 2nd class Saved 1 Year True Christian Real American Saved 5 Years Gold Tither Heaven Bound TC Bravery TC Bravery Protected by JESUS Ex-Masturbator Super Soaker Baptism Award Ready for the Rapture True Christian Caucasian Tagging for Jesus Teabag Patriot Friend of Jesus Flat Earth Tell her once Persecuted Porn Resistant Pro-Life Eats the Most Pork True Republican Sons of Liberty Loves a GODLY Chic-Fil-A Guns, Guts and GLORY! Hatchet Child Rearing Award Touched by Jesus Alternative Facts

Also cannot be rid of his Confedirt Flag tattoo on his belly.
Hobbies are knife-thowin' and hog-butchern.
Wife goes to Weight Watchers and has gotten down to her goal of 250 pounds.
Insists his dog has a nose for Commies.
Knows what an ad hominem attack is.
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 19, 2019 - 05:06pm PT
LOL @ global GDP growth

Global debt used to be roughly equal to GDP, now 3X.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 19, 2019 - 05:34pm PT
Economics is rather more nuanced than two charts that are basically meaningless.
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 19, 2019 - 05:39pm PT
Real purchasing power stayed the same + government and household debt explosion = ?

formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 19, 2019 - 05:49pm PT
I haven't lived in the 50s-60s, but supposedly one wage earner in the US could support a family with multiple children and pay off a house doing a simple no-education required job of minimum wage variety, like working at a store.
Looking at some numbers from the 50s (average home price, average store clerk wage, food prices): it seems to be true.
Interesting how life really was in the 50-60s (before the corporations figured they can double the workforce by having most women work too, and cutting the wages accordingly)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 19, 2019 - 10:47pm PT
I think you guys take this thread too seriously.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Feb 20, 2019 - 01:44am PT
yeah dude. berg heil Gary. whatchya been doin' lately?
capseeboy

Social climber
portland, oregon
Feb 20, 2019 - 07:25am PT
Uh, well, I'm pretty sure the Capitalist American corporations invaded Communist China a little while ago and they are like, sooo pissed off! Then again, I could be Wong.

Rage on! Best laugh today.

Edit#1 BTW don't fergit to checkov oonter de bed befoul beddy bye. Sneaky SOB's.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:03am PT
formerclimber, you should see the house my plumber lives in.

The bricklayer across the street has done all right, too...
I guess he bought his bricks from a corporation, huh?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:17am PT

Ahhh... yo' republicans love anecdotal evidence... which of course makes no sense.... unless it's intuitively evident... to the believer...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:22am PT
yeah dude. berg heil Gary. whatchya been doin' lately?

TBC, nothing! Just slogging up some desert peaks is all. Oh, I did switch voting registration to Democrat so I can vote for Sanders in the primary.

In solidarity,
Gary
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:26am PT
You cant eat anecdotes or bricks but you cant live on twee smarm, neither. Had a truck driver next door, got an old carpenter next door, and an electrician up the block. You dont have to go to CalTech to do well in America. Actually, two of my CalTech PhD friends really arent doing that well. I guess studying spider brains doesnt trump brick laying. Life is about making good choices, too.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:32am PT
trump brick laying

That'll be the f'n day!💰💰💰
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:33am PT

Anecdotal, Reilly, anecdotal...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:37am PT
Ive an endless supply. At some point anecdotes do become evidence, especially when they start out with dirt poor in Nigeria, Egypt, Cameroun, Sierra Leone, Bosnia, Mexico, China, Phillipines, India, Ukraine, Alabama. Need I go on? No, Ill just get ridiculed.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:41am PT

Tell us more about anecdotes becoming evidence...

I can see anecdotes being taken for evidence, but I cannot see anecdotes becoming evidence in any acceptable way scientifically. Kahneman is telling us a thing or two about that.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:45am PT
we need hooblie, talk about anecdotes...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 20, 2019 - 08:57am PT

The Philosophy of Bullsh#t

[Click to View YouTube Video]

It's impossible to always stay out of bullsh#t, but I often try... not always... I'm too lazy... my brain starts hurting...
couchmaster

climber
Feb 20, 2019 - 12:22pm PT
Stewart asked, quote:
"Hey couchmaster: Are you referring to the 442nd Regimental Combat Team? If so, the bad news is that, as you say, they were shot to pieces. The good news, if it can be called that under the circumstances, was that they indeed made contact with the "Lost Battalion" and led the survivors to safety. Hope that I'm correct about this, as I'm not especially familiar with the details.

The 442nd RCT was one hell of an outfit, and they should be remembered with honour, as should all of our veterans who put their lives on the line to rid the world of fascism.

History has been brutally indifferent to the Allied forces who fought in the Italian Campaign. Their massive contribution to victory in Europe has been pretty well ignored by later generations - as a matter of fact, an inbred English aristocrat at the time unspeakably insulted these brave servicemen by labelling them the "D-Day Dodgers", as if it was a crime to make the first permanent Allied foothold in Europe nearly a year before the Normandy landings."

Yup, father in law was in Company I, which took the worst of the worst. Except he missed it having been shot in the chest earlier by a German near Piza Italy. Said he and some of the "boyz" were patrolling a field when a bunch of Germans raised up and started shooting. He thought he snapped off a shot from the waist that killed the guy who got him but he got knocked over backwards and didn't get a clear view. Medic comes running over and flops right over onto him dead from a head shot. He works to get the medic off and as the firing is dropping off he and another injured buddy stagger off the 10 miles to a field aid station. Says they were leaving the ambulances for the boys who were really injured. He was still out of action when the Lost Battalion thing occurred that killed about everyone else he knew.

Being shot in the chest saved his life. But the war was a long one, D-Day hadn't occurred yet and so his war wasn't over, just on temporary pause until he healed up and went back at it with his unit...or what was the rest of his unit.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Feb 20, 2019 - 06:02pm PT
Whoa, Couch, that's wild. Some brave-ass bro's, that's for sure. I read an awesome book about the battle for Monte Casino--truly staggering heroism and sacrifice--and waste, of course, the consequence of all wars. Fortunately for all of us, the Italians didn't have the resolve and skills of the Germans. Still, lots of really tough fighting.

Eff the commies! We need lots of better education on the horrors of the various communist regimes.

BAd
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2019 - 10:42pm PT
Happy May Day, Fellow Workers and greetings on International Worker's Day!

We carry a new world here, in our hearts. That world is growing this minute.
-- Durruti
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2019 - 10:47pm PT
So why do the workers in the Workers Paradise of France spend so much time rioting?
Free healthcare, 10 weeks of vacay, and retiring at 50 dont cut it?
formerclimber

Boulder climber
CA
May 2, 2019 - 08:15am PT
^ since when France's retirement age 62-67 became "50"?
And 5 weeks became 10 somehow?
If you give free medical care it doesn't negate the fact of people no longer being afford the housing, wages being low, etc. These are their demands, all the right things:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/demands-of-frances-yellow-vests-as-uploaded-by-france-bleu-november-29/

But the rich don't and don't want to understand or notice any of that. "Let them eat cake" Well, this is the last generation to defend this ugly status quo - the last one - big changes ahead!
Won't reply here more, it's a political thread, I guess/not the one who revived it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 2, 2019 - 08:19am PT
A lot of gubmint workers retire in their early 50s in France and here!
Thats not economically sustainable especially in France where almost one out three work for the gubmint.

And you didnt answer how burning some other workers vehicle or workplace helps anyone. And breaking into a hospital and almost an ICU? Theyre anarchist thugs, not people out to make life better for anybody.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2019 - 09:52am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 2, 2019 - 11:20am PT

"The Internationale" conducted by Arturo Toscanini--Banned by U.S. censors!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

In 1944, to honor the Allied victory in Italy, legendary counductor Arturo Toscanini--a refugee from Fascisim in his home country--decided to conduct a performance of Verdi's "Hymn of the Nations". "Hymn" is a composition that Verdi orginally built around the national anthems of Britain, France, and Italy. In order to honor all four of the major Allies, Toscanini decided to add "The Star Spangled Banner" for the U.S. and "The Internationale" for the Soviet Union. The music was performed by the NBC Symphony Orchestra, with the Westminister Choir and the great tenor Jan Peerce as soloist; conducted by Toscanini. It was filmed as a featurette to be shown in movie theaters, and was narrated by Burgess Meredith.

In the early 50's, at the height of the Red Scare and McCarthyism, U.S. censors excised the portion of this performance that featured the "Internationale".

For years the sequence containing The Internationale was considered forever lost. But recently a copy of this missing piece of film was rediscovered in Alaska. So now this rousing rendition of the Internationale--together with chorale and orchestra under the direction of a great conductor--can be enjoyed again.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 2, 2019 - 12:10pm PT

Lo Ferr: ni dieu ni maitre

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 2, 2019 - 03:55pm PT
Marlow, TFPU
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2019 - 08:32am PT
^^ "Socialism" by Michael Harrington
"Socialism Re-examined" and "Socialism on the Defensive" by Norman Thomas
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
May 3, 2019 - 08:53am PT
anothernickname, I see from your profile you live in Tristan, the most remote inhabited place on earth?

wow ! I would be very interested in hearing of your life there
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 3, 2019 - 10:10am PT
Countdown to the Lock...

10....

9...

8...
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
May 3, 2019 - 10:58am PT
I have read Das Kapital.

I don't think I have posted on this thread before. So you are probably right.

It's a study of how Capitalism works.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
May 3, 2019 - 11:05am PT
thanks anothernickname,

I now remember asking you the same question some time ago !
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 3, 2019 - 02:04pm PT
Is Pete Butagieg a communist?

(that should do it)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2019 - 02:18pm PT
Recommendations probably aren't to my taste, but thanks. They seem more aimed at current politics and society and how "socialism," per se, fits in. Worthy topics but.....

I'm more interested in Marx and "Marxism," partly as a feature of the 19th Century and how he/it relates to other thinkers of past 150 years or so.

Then read Harrington, a good primer. As for "Capital", good luck! Marx was a brilliant thinker, but kinda dry as a writer. Engels is better.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2019 - 03:04pm PT
I admire people who can really plow through some serious Marx.

The only Marx worth delving into is Groucho. You should try reading some actual economics.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2019 - 04:15pm PT
C'mon, Reilly, you know better than that.

But knowing nothing, I'd probably look for a different analyst.

It's a good start, and would give you a base from which to start. Something different from the capitalist propaganda we've all been inundated with.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
May 3, 2019 - 05:21pm PT
Gary:
As for "Capital", good luck! Marx was a brilliant thinker, but kinda dry as a writer. Engels is better.
I agree.
I went through about 30% of Das Kapital.
It's boring reading.
Anyway, analysis of a state of UK society two centuries ago is of interest only to historians.
If you want to understand the essence of Marxism, you need to understand his method.
It can be done by studying of modern books/articles.
I see no need in reading of Das Kapital in the 21st century.

P.S. Engels wrote a few independent works but they are no match to Das Kapital.
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