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Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 2, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
More on the Spanish Civil War.

Towards the end of the war, the anarchists, commies, & republicans & people shot more of the people they didn't like.

But then, the commies started shooting their Republican & anarchist allies & of course those folks shot back.

And the Fascists, in areas they conquered, just shot everyone that wasn't catholic & sometimes they shot the Catholics too.

And at the end of the war, both sides shot anyone they suspected of rooting for the other side, or who had money, or an estate they wanted.

It's amazing to visit Spain today, & the totally destroyed by war cities of Madrid & Barcelona & not see signs of 1930's destruction.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 2, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
Hey! I had calamari over in the corner there! I think the waiter was a commie, but a nice one.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 2, 2018 - 09:18pm PT
Spain was about 200 years late to The Enlightenment.
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2018 - 08:32am PT
This has always been a hilarious thread. Take a look at the first few pages if you need a good laugh.

Of course, this thread ignores the real problem:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2576458/Grammy-Awards-Ideological-Satanism-at-its-best
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2018 - 12:40pm PT
I suspect Chinese commies could restore Peurto Rico’s power in six months for free no problem if only they realized what an insanely great idea that was.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
May 3, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
If the Chinese decided to do it it would be done much quicker than 6 months. I am not pro Mao or communism but once those folks decide to do something they do not mess around.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2018 - 02:22pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 3, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-marx-2018-story.html



A specter is haunting Germany — the specter of Karl Marx.

A curious debate has erupted just as the hometown of communism's founding father is about to celebrate the 200th anniversary of his birth in the western German town of Trier.

Is it appropriate for a country split by the Cold War, which pitted communism against capitalism, to honor the 19th century critic of free markets? Is it tasteless to capitalize on Marx's name for the sake of tourist income? Is nostalgia for communist East Germany clouding peoples' memories? Or might Marx be a modern-day antidote to an era of unbridled capitalism?

Those are among the questions riling Germans — and people across Europe — this week as his hometown prepares to pay tribute to Marx's memory by unveiling an 18-foot-high statue of its native son. The inauguration of the colossal statue will kick off a year featuring 600 events in the Trier area celebrating Marx, who was born on May 5, 1818. That the 2.3-ton bronze memorial of the bearded philosopher in a pensive pose and frock coat was a gift from the People's Republic of China has only added to the controversy.

...In his writings, Marx argued that the relentless drive for profits in the capitalist system would lead enterprises to continuously mechanize their workplaces and that would, in turn, lead to more goods being produced while at the same time workers' wages would be squeezed. He warned, also prophetically, that capitalism's tendency to concentrate high value on arbitrary products would lead to a "subservience to inhuman ... unnatural and imaginary appetites."
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
May 3, 2018 - 04:31pm PT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 4, 2018 - 02:08pm PT
One last post before we put this to bed until next May. Not much has changed since 1918:

"As we have said, the bankers are for bullets—for the fool patriots that enlist at paupers' wages to stop the bullets, while the bankers clip coupons, boost food prices, increase dividends, and pile up millions and billions for themselves. Say, Mr. Workingman, suppose you have sense enough to be as patriotic as the banker, but not a bit more so. When you see the bankers on the firing line with guns in their hands ready to stop bullets as well as start them, then it is time enough for you to be seized with the patriotic itch and have yourself shot into a crazy-quilt for their profit and glory. Don't you take a fit and rush to the front until you see them there. They own the country and if they don't set the example of fighting for it, why should you?" -- Eugene Debs
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 4, 2018 - 09:14pm PT

So, what are you waiting for? Of course, 1944 was a long time ago. How's this "taking" thing supposed to work? At the ballot box? or another way?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 5, 2018 - 07:56am PT
Reuters:

Marx's German birthplace unveils controversial statue of him


TRIER, GERMANY
Protesters held banners reading "Down with capitalism" and "Father of all dictators" at Saturday's unveiling of a statue of Karl Marx in the German city of Trier, reflecting the polarizing legacy of the philosopher in his birthplace and beyond.
The bronze sculpture, which towers over 5 meters (16 feet) high including the plinth, is a gift from China to mark Saturday's 200th birthday of the founder of Communism.
Marx spent the first 17 years of his life in Trier, a small town on the Moselle River in Germany's far west.
Many see the post-World War Two division of Germany and the erection of the Berlin Wall to divide the Communist east from the capitalist West as a result of his ideas, but Trier mayor Wolfram Leibe said historical controversies should be acknowledged.
"In Germany, we have this situation again and again with difficult, complex personalities of history - we want to hide them in the woods," he said. "So it was a conscious act to bring Karl Marx into the city ... We don't have to hide him."
The city council voted to accept the gift from the Chinese government by 42 members to seven in March 2017.
While some see it as recognition of Trier's most famous son, others argue that accepting the gift from China is not compatible with criticizing human rights abuses there.
Since 2015, China's President Xi Jinping has presided over a widespread crackdown on human rights activists.
The statue depicts a thoughtful Marx, holding a book in one hand.
"Yes, we stand by the child of our city. And we deal with Karl Marx in a constructive and active way," said Malu Dreyer, premier of the state of Rhineland-Palatinate, to which Trier belongs. "We are glad to receive this present, this gesture of friendship."

(Reporting by Reuters TV; Writing by Paul Carrel; Editing by Kevin Liffey)


So what would Marx say about Trier’s favorite industry - winemaking?
The proletariat can’t make good wine, trust me, I’ve had it.
Sure do like a nice Moselle rieseling though.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 5, 2018 - 10:04am PT
Reilly, it's the fluoridation of the wine that makes it taste so bad.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 5, 2018 - 07:54pm PT

Lituya

Mountain climber
May 7, 2018 - 11:15am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

"The estimates of the number of non-combatants killed by these three regimes alone range from a low of 21 million to a high of 70 million"


Still, Gary wants to give it another try. "I swear, we'll get it right this time!"
Jonathan Weir

Boulder climber
visalia, ca
May 7, 2018 - 12:03pm PT
Reply to mass killings under communist regimes. I'm sure you don't know all the history in the world, unless your Gore Vidal or from a Ivy League School with a masters or PH.D in history or anthropology. I'm sorry to tell you , but these things happened in a lot of places and not always under communists regimes. In the 80's and late seventies America (North) sent dictators down to south America to govern their countries because they were so afraid of Communism taking over. They wanted to deal with capitalists, so they dropped in Pinochet in Chile and some other dickhead in Uruguay who was just like Pinochet. Thousands were imprisoned and tortured in both countries often with the help of USA's CIA just because they were intellectuals. Then we backed drug dealers because they were about capitalism, gave them weapons, then instead of deadheading an empty plane back to America, filled it with bales of Cocaine. This probably fueled the crack epidemic more than anything. When everything was over it they put oliver north on tv on trial for a while in his olive green suit. I was too young to care or watch it. I just wanted some candy.
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 7, 2018 - 12:25pm PT
Jonathan,

Not from an Ivy League school, but I do, in fact, have a MA in history. (And a BA American History, a BA Astronomy, a MFA Creative Writing, and a MAIS.)

You're only partially right about South America. Much has been written about American meddling there--mostly from the left view. Mostly re Allende. Pales in comparison to communist atrocities elsewhere. Not even a blip. As for the narco wars, well, who knows. I lived in Colombia for a while. If you have access to CIA files, I'd love to see.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 7, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
Lituya

Mountain climber
May 7, 2018 - 03:59pm PT
Not true at all. No doubt the Republican Party was once more liberal--at least in their rhetoric. They used to be green too. But they have moved no farther from the center than Democrats. Calming these pendulum swings should be a priority, but, unfortunately, neither "side" trusts the other's commitments to compromise. IMO, part of the reason is because too much power has been delegated to bureaucrats who are far too free to interpret law. Even Rousseau warned against this inevitability.

Anyway, here's the 1956 platform:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=25838


//"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."


"We hold that the major world issue today is whether Government shall be the servant or the master of men. We hold that the Bill of Rights is the sacred foundation of personal liberty. That men are created equal needs no affirmation, but they must have equality of opportunity and protection of their civil rights under the law."

"We hold that the strict division of powers and the primary responsibility of State and local governments must be maintained, and that the centralization of powers in the national Government leads to expansion of the mastery of our lives."

"We hold that the protection of the freedom of men requires that budgets be balanced, waste in government eliminated, and taxes reduced."


"The advance of Communism and its enslavement of people has been checked, and, at key points, thrown back. Austria, Iran and Guatemala have been liberated from Kremlin control. Forces of freedom are at work in the nations still enslaved by Communist imperialism."//
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