Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 07:04am PT
|
"It's not important."
I agree. I do not try not to try. It just happens.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 07:10am PT
|
Jan,
My intended contribution to the conversation was to point to a couple earlier accounts of NDEs. If I dismissed the the notion I would not be interested in it and would not have learned what I have. There is more for me to learn and it is nice to see the progress in that direction.
edit:
I add with a bit of trepidation that in part of my research career we killed rabbits by sodium pentothal and then air injected into an ear vein. The bunnies died quickly and peacefully. Then we removed the vagus nerve and put it in a dish of oxygenated Ringer's solution and did electrical stimulation and recording from individual axons. They kept working for hours. I could not help but be curious: when the rabbit died it seemed that if you could look you would see no sudden dramatic change in any one cell, so what caused the sudden dramatic change in the rabbit? I did some journal reading of research on what happens when neurons are deprived of oxygen. It was not what I would have guessed but it made some sense out of the puzzle of death by air embolism.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 08:19am PT
|
When you damage the material body of the rabbit the individual living entity within (soul) which animates the rabbit body it inhabits will have to leave.
That's called death by the clueless gross materialists.
The gross materialists are so brainwashed with their material/physicalist consciousness they become completely blind to what life actually is .....
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 10:29am PT
|
doing nothing is quite difficult to experience and "achieve."
Here is where "most people who've studied the notion" went wrong. They tried to do something.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 05:03pm PT
|
Molecules => Organic Molecules => Order (cells, Life) => Replication (begin biological evolution) => Neurons => Memory => Consciousness => Mind
You can also look at it in reverse. Mind requires consciousness, which requires memories, which require neurons, which require cells (ordered collections of organic molecules), which require organic molecules, which require molecules.
Mind happened to evolve in this way. It did not come into the universe fully-formed. The main controversy, to my mind :), is whether life starts at the Order level or at the Replication level. I think that life preceded replication but could be convinced otherwise with a good argument.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 07:50pm PT
|
jgill's science website looks promising. There's a forum called Anything Science which even has a thread about contemplating a total Void as the original state of things. It looks like we could even start one of our own called What is Mind?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 08:09pm PT
|
Yeah, that looks good.
I'm going over there NOW to tell everyone there they are clueless mental speculators ......
:-)
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
|
A new approach to the 'hard problem'of consciousness, the eons-old mind-body problem, is proposed, inspired by Whitehead, Schopenhauer, Griffin, and others. I define a 'simple subject' as the fundamental unit of matter and of consciousness. Simple subjects are inherently experiential, albeit in a highly rudimentary manner compared to human consciousness. With this re-framing, the 'physical' realm includes the 'mental' realm; they are two aspects of the same thing, the outside and inside of each real thing. This view is known as panpsychism or panexperientialism and is in itself a partial solution to the hard problem. The secondary but more interesting question may be framed as: what is a 'complex subject'? How do simple subjects combine to form complex subjects like bats and human beings? This is more generally known as the 'combination problem'or the 'boundary problem', and is the key problem facing both materialist and panpsychist approaches to consciousness. I suggest a new approach for resolving this component of the hard problem, a 'general theory of complex subjects' that includes 'psychophysical laws' in the form of a simple mathematical framework. I present three steps for characterizing complex subjects, with the physical nature of time key to this new understanding. Viewing time as fundamentally quantized is important. I also suggest, as a second-order conceptualization, that 'information' and 'experience' may be considered identical concepts and that there is no double-aspect to information. Rather, there is a single aspect to information and it is inherently experiential. Tononi's, Chalmers', and Freeman's similar theories are compared and contrasted.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263491208_Kicking_the_Psychophysical_Laws_into_Gear_A_New_Approach_to_the_Combination_Problem
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
|
|
|
May 20, 2019 - 08:28pm PT
|
Sure hope I die peacefully, but then how will anybody know?
Goin' down the road feelin' bad!
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
May 21, 2019 - 06:18am PT
|
You are funny, Werner!
Jan: jgill's science website looks promising. There's a forum called Anything Science which even has a thread about contemplating a total Void as the original state of things. It looks like we could even start one of our own called What is Mind?
That's an idea, isn't it?
I don't know about you, but it's tough to make new friends and get up to speed on any conversation even if you are well-read in an area. Plus, there is the requirement or wish that you'll be talking with folks you have something in common with to begin with. Climbing has always seemed special to me; for me (and perhaps only for me), there was a resonance with combat, and that was something that attracted me. Climbers' training and background work experience also makes them rigorous and more detail-oriented and demanding than most other groups, IMO. Good for hard scrabble.
What's immediately missing in another thread will be a knowledge and understanding of the personalities (and all that goes with that) of the "regulars." (Yeah, I know: that can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing.)
Conversations are tenuous and fragile things. They don't seem to be only about information. To be participating and contributing calls for many different dispositions, even in the same person.
I've moved around alot. I think you have too. It takes me about 3 years to get my feet underneath me once I've moved to a new location. (Gee, do I have 3 more years left to live? Lama Tsong Khapa said that the contemplation of one's inevitable death is the best spiritual practice there was.)
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
May 21, 2019 - 07:10am PT
|
Sure hope I die peacefully, but then how will anybody know?
In the nursing home I would see a couple residents die per month. If we saw restless movement, or grimacing, or heard groans or whimpers we would check with the doctor or go by standing orders to give a bit of subcutaneous morphine which would dispel the symptoms temporarily. Death usually came with a slowing of respiratory rate, gaps between breaths, and then no breathing. It looked peaceful. Then we would listen to the chest by stethoscope for heartbeat, watch the chest for movement, and shine a light in the eyes to look for pupil constriction.
There are people opposed to such palliative care measures as morphine who feel that death should be more natural. I never saw a death follow closely after an injection and the amounts were 5-10 milligrams which should not be enough to seriously affect breathing. I think a person's own wishes should take priority but the medical professions are not about to adopt natural death as the standard end-of-life plan.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
|
|
May 23, 2019 - 10:41am PT
|
I have joined the website set up by happiegirl and established another What is Mind thread for anyone who is interested in continuing over there.
Anyway it's available and has a format I like better than Facebook.
http://climberstacosalad.freeforums.net/
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 23, 2019 - 10:59am PT
|
Good job Jan .....
|
|
TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
|
|
|
May 23, 2019 - 11:19am PT
|
Thanks Jan.
How about cross posting and thus "saving" the great Frank Sacherer stuff on ST as well?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2019 - 11:36am PT
|
And the beat goes on...
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
May 23, 2019 - 11:38am PT
|
I've joined Jan at Happie's new site. It looks good to me.
Andy, Mike, Ed, High Fructose, Ward, Grug, and others, come on over. Largo, WB, Jan, and I have registered there.
John
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
May 23, 2019 - 02:12pm PT
|
Can mental speculators join? I mean, that's my whole game.
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
May 23, 2019 - 02:37pm PT
|
The more the merrier. Emptiness to artificial consciousness, and everything in between.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!