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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
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Karl, I think the Buddhist monks were commie before Jesus. I could be wrong.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Feb 25, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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Once you go Red you'll rise from the dead.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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Debunk it? I won't even try to read it. Could you be a little more concise?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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Karl, you're probably right about Jesus. The difference is that he was truly benevolent, not seeking power, not greedy. He wasn't bound by the flaws of mankind.
Men (or women) CANNOT make communism work on any significant scale.
Dr.F, do you really expect people to read all that???
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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Dr. F, I want to say that I'm glad that you have the intellect and take the time to to give us such valuable posts. Of course, I'm on your side of the isle, not everyone on ST will be as appreciative. People having a problem with long posts are the ones most likely to buy into over simplified sloganeering. We live in a "sound bite" time where people can't be bothered to explore a subject in depth.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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Tongue somewhat in cheek, but I do like somewhat extreme manifestos to get the synapses firing.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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Do you want to reach peoples minds? Or just people that you imagine are as smart and determined as you? Or are you just trying to impress us? Sure, I read it, I read stuff like this, and worse or better, all the time. I don't quote huge slabs of it during discussions.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
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Okay, Dr. F, let's look at this one;
3. Develop a thug caste
When leaders who seek what I call a "fascist shift" want to close down an open society, they send paramilitary groups of scary young men out to terrorise citizens. The Blackshirts roamed the Italian countryside beating up communists; the Brownshirts staged violent rallies throughout Germany. This paramilitary force is especially important in a democracy: you need citizens to fear thug violence and so you need thugs who are free from prosecution.
The years following 9/11 have proved a bonanza for America's security contractors, with the Bush administration outsourcing areas of work that traditionally fell to the US military. In the process, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars have been issued for security work by mercenaries at home and abroad. In Iraq, some of these contract operatives have been accused of involvement in torturing prisoners, harassing journalists and firing on Iraqi civilians. Under Order 17, issued to regulate contractors in Iraq by the one-time US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, these contractors are immune from prosecution
Yes, but that is in Iraq, you could argue; however, after Hurricane Katrina, the Department of Homeland Security hired and deployed hundreds of armed private security guards in New Orleans. The investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill interviewed one unnamed guard who reported having fired on unarmed civilians in the city. It was a natural disaster that underlay that episode - but the administration's endless war on terror means ongoing scope for what are in effect privately contracted armies to take on crisis and emergency management at home in US cities.
Thugs in America? Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000. If you are reading history, you can imagine that there can be a need for "public order" on the next election day. Say there are protests, or a threat, on the day of an election; history would not rule out the presence of a private security firm at a polling station "to restore public order".
First her whole premise is that Bush was becoming a fascist. Well, he's gone. Get over it.
Next she admits her whole Blackwater premise is a red-herring because that's Iraq, not here. Then she balks at the use of 'private security' being used after Katrina and that in one incident these contractors fired on 'civilians'. Were they innocent? Looters? Doesn't really rise to thuggery without more details...which are lacking.
Lastly she points to 'angry Republican males all dressed the same' who intimidated voter counts. Does she have any pictures of this goon squad? And what the hell is intimidation, can she explain???
Now let's discuss Obama and his desire to create a Civilian Police Force, that's just as well armed as the military. WTF? That doesn't seem worrisome to you?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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The Bush may be gone but the roots remain. The Bush appointees to the Supreme Court will be screwing us over for years to come. Witness the Corporate give away in their recent BS ruling.
Have Blue, quick comrade look behind you, it's the RED MENACE!!!!!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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Lastly she points to 'angry Republican males all dressed the same' who intimidated voter counts. Does she have any pictures of this goon squad?
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-09/local/me-28_1_polling-place
Uniformed security guards hired by the Republican Party of Orange County were removed from Santa Ana polling places Tuesday morning after the chief deputy secretary of state termed their presence "unlawful intimidation of voters."
Outraged Democratic Party leaders had charged that the guards were harassing Latino voters in the bitterly contested 72nd Assembly District, writing down automobile license plate numbers and challenging voters to prove that they are U.S. citizens.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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There ya go Blue. Read it and weep over another beer.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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Gary, that isn't what she said. She changed it to 'angry Repub males'.
Those were security guards hired by Repubs concerned with illegal alien voting. She painted a different picture.
That link is from the 1988 elections too...
And I'm all in favor of having to show an I.D. to vote.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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we all should realize that no amount of varifiable "proof" (that is proof to you and me, that anyone would say is "proof") is never going to be enough for the blueguy....
he's firmly red-state guy living among blue-staters....
BTW - That story was posted to the web in 1988.. not sure of its relevence to current events.
Blue - the nation has a civilian police force.. and they get a healthy percentage of state funds... not sure what you mean by "Obama's creating a civilian police force" you mention above...
no response is needed really.. I know this all to be pointless bickering about what you don't want to admit.. (how has your life been made by the actions of the last administration, or has your person life turned horably bad since a democrat got into office?)
good day sir
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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I googled the police force...
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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Those were security guards hired by Repubs concerned with illegal alien voting. She painted a different picture.
No, those were Republicans concerned with Democrats voting.
That link is from the 1988 elections too...
And how does that make it invalid? You said there had never been Republican goon squads, I gave an example. Even if the local Republican Central Committee sent a squad of uniformed thugs into your house and dragged away your family, you still wouldn't acknowledge it. Why?
The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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how's yer chains, Bluey?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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Gary, that's from 1988 mid-terms. Who was prez then?
The whole premise of F's article was that Bush was going fascist. That happend under Clinton. And in your link, even the other local Repubs called it too much.
Actually, it was Reagen who was prez...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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whatever, F.....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Bluey, Can't face the Truth of being part of a Fascist organization claiming that Obama is trying a Communist Takeover, that is totally debunked
I simply stated what Obama himself stated during the campaign that he wanted a civilian police force that is as well funded and well armed as the military.
He said it! Not me. And you didn't debunk squat. You just said you didn't believe it.
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