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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 19, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
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in the end the true believers turn to murder no mater what their original intention was I'm not going to argue that point.
So does it apply to Evangelical Christians? They are as much "true believers" as some Muslims and Jews.
Interesting isn't it that the 3 major God believing religions can be called "true believers" with some justification.
Doesn't seem to apply so neatly to Buddhists and Hindus and certainly NOT to agnostics and atheists.
Communism is nothing like a religion (as was claimed earlier by TGT).
It is a social and political philosophy.
If you knew your history, you'd know that the first thing the Russian Communists did was destroy the authority of the Church and repress religion. Actually, I'm pretty sure you knew that but it didn't fit with your demagoguery.
A political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. See also Marxism.
The most familiar form of communism is that established by the Bolsheviks after the Russian Revolution of 1917, and it has generally been understood in terms of the system practiced by the former Soviet Union and its allies in eastern Europe, in China since 1949, and in some developing countries such as Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea. Communism embraced a revolutionary ideology in which the state would wither away after the overthrow of the capitalist system. In practice, however, the state grew to control all aspects of communist society.
Fascism on the other hand worked hand in hand with complicity by the Lutheran (Germany) and Catholic (Germany and Italy) churches, and the Shinto "religion" in Japan.
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach
demagogue:
A political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 04:43am PT
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So... based upon the repeated postings of TGT and yourself, when can we expect you steely-eyed patriots to organize a boycott of all trade with China, along with an end to the death penalty in the U.S.?
I already have a family-based boycott of Chinese goods. The wife and I always look a product labels and buy non-Chinese goods where possible.
The death penalty? I support it in almost all cases.
As for your obsession with reporting communists to the 'authorities', it is not illegal to have those beliefs. It is fundamentally un-American based on our traditional values, but it's a free country and you are entitled to have those beliefs.
I'm not going to argue that point.
So does it apply to Evangelical Christians? They are as much "true believers" as some Muslims and Jews.
Interesting isn't it that the 3 major God believing religions can be called "true believers" with some justification.
Doesn't seem to apply so neatly to Buddhists and Hindus and certainly NOT to agnostics and atheists.
Well, the only only people that kill in the name of their religion are Islamists (not all Muslims). And as I said before, the Crusades were a response to an Islamic caliphate that sought to conquer southern Europe.
Communism is nothing like a religion (as was claimed earlier by TGT).
It is a social and political philosophy.
If you knew your history, you'd know that the first thing the Russian Communists did was destroy the authority of the Church and repress religion. Actually, I'm pretty sure you knew that but it didn't fit with your demagoguery.
I'll have to disagree here somewhat. Communism is a substitute for religion. "Religion is the opiate of the masses", was once said, and that is why it had to be destroyed. It held people together.
Communists made the State their religion. Don't believe in some phony fairy tale of a man in the sky, believe in the State and our dear leader, he will give you all you need in the here and now.
Fascism on the other hand worked hand in hand with complicity by the Lutheran (Germany) and Catholic (Germany and Italy) churches, and the Shinto "religion" in Japan.
Well, that's arguable. I would not say the church worked "hand in hand" with fascist leaders. Sure, the leaders called themselves Catholics, or whatever, but their deeds were political.
Timmy McVeigh was raised as a Christian, but he did not subscribe to the faith. He was irreligious, a pagan. He did not kill in the name of God. He killed because of political ideology.
Hitler, Hito, and the Spanish fascists killed in the name of the State, or the Emperor, not God. As did Stalin. And Mao, and Castro.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 05:10am PT
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I'm not sure I'd believe a second-hand account from a Palestinian leader. But GW was a spiritual dude.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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Jul 20, 2014 - 05:17am PT
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Bluering wrote "The death penalty? I support it in almost all cases."
So you support the murder of innocent people then? Because of course you are aware that not everyone that is convicted and executed is guilty of the crime.
My, my, wonder what God is going to have to say about that. Never mind, He's actually pretty down with killing. Promotes it even. It's His wayward son who's against it, but WTF does he know?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 05:24am PT
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SC, I think that's a stretch. He wasn't using a Crusade to go into war, but using faith to keep our soldiers strong while fighting a war.
It's very clear why we went to war, whether you agree or not, but it was not because of religion.
EDIT: So you support the murder of innocent people then? Because of course you are aware that not everyone that is convicted and executed is guilty of the crime.
I said, in almost all cases.
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7SacredPools
Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
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Jul 20, 2014 - 05:29am PT
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Sorry bluering but you can't have the death penalty without murdering innocent people as well. The justice system is far from perfect.
When are you death penalty advocates going to get that?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 05:36am PT
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The justice system is far from perfect.
True, and it never will be. But there are cases that are "open and shut" cases. Besides, they rarely execute people anymore...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 20, 2014 - 08:59am PT
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bluering wrote:If you did everything yourself, you get to decide what to do with the goods.
There you have it, bluering is a communist!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 09:08am PT
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If you say so, Gary, go ahead and run with that...
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 20, 2014 - 09:13am PT
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If you think a person gets to keep the full reward of his work, then you're by definition a marxist.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 09:25am PT
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If you think a person gets to keep the full reward of his work, then you're by definition a marxist.
Only under the criteria that you had previously mentioned. It's not a blanket rule.
What you had laid out is essentially an independent farmer. That has nothing to do with the political ideology of Karl Marx. What you had laid out was independence and personal freedom. Marx wanted State control.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 09:51am PT
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Randisi, I apologize, you're correct. But what Marx advocated was a total pipe-dream. It is utterly un-workable except on a small commune, and even then a hierarchy would evolve.
You cannot change inherent human behavior. Especially amongst a working group of individuals. His theories sound really nice and all, but always fail.
Isn't it ironic that his anti-State, anti-establishment theories have historically produced the opposite in practice.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 20, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
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And here I always thought "Tail Gunner" Senator Joe McCarthy had been dead for years.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 20, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
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Only under the criteria that you had previously mentioned. It's not a blanket rule.
No, it's not a blanket rule, ONLY THE F*#KIN FUNDAMENTAL PREMISE OF MARXISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bluring, everything you know is wrong. You've been fed lie after lie by the MSM, and believe every word of it, even as you dismiss the MSM.
I think that's called doublethink.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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No, it's not a blanket rule, ONLY THE F*#KIN FUNDAMENTAL PREMISE OF MARXISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is where you pinkos get it wrong. You want to apply it broadly.
If I work for Apple and make f*#king Iphones, I don't get the money from selling it. I get a wage I agreed to when I signed up to work there.
Working for somebody else is entirely different than doing everything yourself.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Jul 20, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
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blueringworm: so we're supposed to get outraged about the Chinese executing their citizens, but it's OK for the U.S. to do so? I'll let you look up the word "hypocrite" all by yourself. Also, perhaps you can give me a lengthy list of the millionaires who have been executed in the United States within recent memory just so I can admire how equally citizens are treated under the law.
You started this moronic thread, so AGAIN I ask you why you're not asking your masters to organize a boycott of all Chinese goods. If your twisted beliefs were confined to your family circle, they wouldn't bother me much, but unfortunately you're actually attempting to sell paranoia as fact to the people participating in this forum. Oh, yeah - your computer and/or most of its components are probably made in China.
I've noticed what happened when masses of hate-fuelled morons used their "patriotic" delusions to justify a mass murder spree in Rwanda. The kind of sick poison you're attempting to pass off as fact comes from the same mind set, and is certainly capable of producing the same results in the U.S.
So, let me get this straight. It's OK to be one of the maybe twelve real commies in the U.S., because it's a free country, but it's not OK for them to do whatever their political beliefs motivate them to do? BUT (your words) the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security are carefully monitoring their actions.
Why is the U.S. security establishment monitoring the actions of any of their citizens utilizing their right to free speech?
So, speaking of the war crimes committed by your masters, you have blandly denied the facts that the entire civilized world accepts. With this in mind, I repeat: when are you going to demand that the U.S. agree to participate in the International Criminal Court and other international human rights tribunals? Oh - maybe it's because you know that both Bush Presidents and most of their cabinets would be safely behind bars by now and the billions that they stole from the U.S. taxpayers during their murder sprees returned to the public trust.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 20, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
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Islamic caliphate that sought to conquer southern Europe. The first Crusade, perhaps; wasn't it to "liberate" the holy land, principally Palestine? Possibly the first major religious war of liberation. Subsequent Crusades were for a wide variety of reasons. Historians can't decide whether there were 5 or 9 Crusades.
By the first Crusade, the Saracens/Muslims had already conquered most of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain), the Balkans by the time of the 1st Crusade. They had conquered all of N and E Africa, Italy, Greece, and Anatolia (Turkey). They were only bounded on the East at the Euphrates River by the competing Sasanian (Persian) Empire (Zoroastrian + others, not Islamic).
The Byzantine and Sasanian empires each had a cultured civilization going and were way ahead of northern Europeans in art, philosophy, government, commerce, architecture, astronomy and mathematics.
One could argue that from their point of view, the Muslims were just re-conquering peoples and lands they had previously controlled. Remember who conquered Rome? Visigoths and Franks. Primitive rabble even by the standards of the times. The Byzantine Empire had reconquered what is now Italy and re-civilized it by 555 AD.
Then they turned east and conquered the Sasanids and took everything to Herat Afghanistan.
Were they warlike?
Who WASN'T in the 11th century? The Normans had conquered England by the time the Pope called for the 1st Crusade in 1095 or so.
The Europeans have fought among themselves ever since they crawled out of the primordial mud. They stupidly followed the Pope and went off to the holy land instead of building up their own civilizations.
Religious war was one of the many things the Founding Fathers had in mind when they separated church and state.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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blueringworm: so we're supposed to get outraged about the Chinese executing their citizens, but it's OK for the U.S. to do so?
I never expressed outrage at the Chinese penal system, but now that you ask, it is a bit archaic. Conflating our system with theirs is pretty f*#king stupid though. Due process?
With this in mind, I repeat: when are you going to demand that the U.S. agree to participate in the International Criminal Court and other international human rights tribunals?
Our Constitution dictates how we execute laws, not a bunch of pinkos in the Hague.
EDIT: Fred Yes there were multiple Crusades. Since biblical times. I just don't like when the word 'Crusades' is mentioned, immediately blame gets pushed onto Christians.
The Holy Land has been a war zone forever. Probably will continue to be that way. Look at today's headlines.
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